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NFT: USMNT vs Venezuela

Zeke's Alibi : 6/9/2019 2:28 pm
Holy shit Steffan. And than to start yelling at the defense. GTFOH
...  
Man In The Box : 6/9/2019 2:40 pm : link
Not good
This is hilarious.  
Zeke's Alibi : 6/9/2019 2:41 pm : link
Nice effort.
I don't care what anyone says getting beat twice  
Zeke's Alibi : 6/9/2019 2:44 pm : link
on the same goal is flat out impressive.
This is the type of game that gets managers fired in real  
Zeke's Alibi : 6/9/2019 2:47 pm : link
programs.
LOL....this commercial for USMNT Gold Cup  
Zeke's Alibi : 6/9/2019 3:08 pm : link
is hysterical considering what is transpiring right now. New attitude, new effort!
Getting destroyed by a team  
Vanzetti : 6/9/2019 3:30 pm : link
whose country is in the midst of an economic and political breakdown

Why not play the best 11?  
geepeegee : 6/9/2019 3:44 pm : link
The announcers and others are saying that this is not the best 11. I would imagine Pulisic is among the top 11, so I would agree. However, why would Berhalter not play the best 11 so that they learn how to play together? Are the missing players injured or am I missing something. Seems odd.
How does Venezuela still have an active team?  
Jerz44 : 6/9/2019 3:48 pm : link
With all thatís going on there...
RE: Why not play the best 11?  
Zeke's Alibi : 6/9/2019 3:56 pm : link
In comment 14467564 geepeegee said:
Quote:
The announcers and others are saying that this is not the best 11. I would imagine Pulisic is among the top 11, so I would agree. However, why would Berhalter not play the best 11 so that they learn how to play together? Are the missing players injured or am I missing something. Seems odd.


This is about evaluation, still no excuse. Our first game is Guyana. The concerning part is Berhalter forcing his tactics on a backline and goalie who can't handle it. We need to establish a uniquely American style. Seemed to work under Arenas and somewhat under Bradley. Tab Ramos should be managing this team. We also have no one that can finish. We did create some dangerous chances, but you still gotta put the ball in the net.
...  
Man In The Box : 6/9/2019 4:00 pm : link
They better get their act together before next Tuesday
Altidore is showing he's by far the best option.  
D-Rod : 6/9/2019 4:00 pm : link
Even if most everyone wants to run him out. And i get he's having a poor run of form now, but how was Bobby Wood not given a chance to participate?

Zach Steffen was supposed to have the quality to play off the backline but he looks horrible right now.
RE: Altidore is showing he's by far the best option.  
section125 : 6/9/2019 4:03 pm : link
In comment 14467580 D-Rod said:
Quote:
Even if most everyone wants to run him out. And i get he's having a poor run of form now, but how was Bobby Wood not given a chance to participate?

Zach Steffen was supposed to have the quality to play off the backline but he looks horrible right now.


Why isn't Bobby Wood there?
RE: How does Venezuela still have an active team?  
dpinzow : 6/9/2019 4:07 pm : link
In comment 14467570 Jerz44 said:
Quote:
With all thatís going on there...


South American futbol doesn't stop regardless of what is going on domestically
RE: RE: Altidore is showing he's by far the best option.  
D-Rod : 6/9/2019 4:11 pm : link
In comment 14467581 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 14467580 D-Rod said:


Quote:


Even if most everyone wants to run him out. And i get he's having a poor run of form now, but how was Bobby Wood not given a chance to participate?

Zach Steffen was supposed to have the quality to play off the backline but he looks horrible right now.



Why isn't Bobby Wood there?


He's had a poor year in the Bundesliga.
The More Things Change  
Jeffrey : 6/9/2019 6:25 pm : link
Changing managers, and players has not led to new results. However, this time I think that the talent is clearly there and with time this team will show results, even if there are more embarrassing performances ahead in the next few months. Need to finally find a scoring threat and solve the unending quest for defense. Tyler Adams, Pulisic, Weah, Sargent, Long, Soto, McKinnie and more are going to develop and while this summer may be too soon, I believe the next World Cup will feature a much more competitive team.
I like Miazga and Long as a CB pairing.  
D-Rod : 6/9/2019 7:01 pm : link
I'd rather not have Adams at RB, he's at his best in the midfield.

Hopefully Yedlin comes back strong, and they need to find a LB. Not convinced any of the LBs they have tried so far can stabilize the position.
The joke continues ...  
Spider56 : 6/10/2019 9:16 am : link
The US had the right coach in Klinsmann but he was run out by the politicos both on and off the field. I was willing to give Berhalter a pass until I read that he considers Joey Altidore the best US striker ... wrong. Altidore is the most overrated player in the US and part of the problem. US soccer continues to be a world class joke.
Klinsmann..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/10/2019 9:25 am : link
was a horrific fit for this team and is the main reason where we are right now.

His system and his selections retarded the development. You can't have one philosophy at the top and a separate one at other levels. The result is what we are seeing now.

Klinsmann had theories which would have worked well if we were better organized as a soccer nation. His principles are to develop players on skills and creativity instead of boxing them into systems. The US is very much a system-based soccer program.

Where Klinsmann massively failed was by causing dissention and divisiveness in the team. He took a fairly harmonious squad and brought chaos (probably intentionally) to it. Players never knew where they would play or if they would be selected. He alienated veterans. And it backfired. In one of the easiest qualifying pools to get through, we didn't do it.

He's a major reason we are where we are today. I don't know if Berhalter is the answer, but there was a lot of cleaning up that had to be done in Klinsmann's wake.

And Altidore is not massively overrated. He's been one of the most consistent strikers the US has had.
RE: Klinsmann..  
section125 : 6/10/2019 9:29 am : link
In comment 14467961 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:

........
And Altidore is not massively overrated. He's been one of the most consistent strikers the US has had.


Agree with all you said. Altidore's problems are with injuries. Give me a healthy Altidore and there is no scoring threat problem.

Klinsmann was a disaster.
The most ironic..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/10/2019 9:37 am : link
thing about this statement:

Quote:
The joke continues ...
Spider56 : 9:16 am : link : reply
The US had the right coach in Klinsmann but he was run out by the politicos both on and off the field.


Is that Klinsmann was fairly well protected by "politicos". Sunil Gulati stood by him much longer than he should have.

Klinsmann ran himself out of town. after a decent World Cup finish, he could have been set for years - but he pissed it away, leading to one of the USA's more dark times in soccer since they've emerged on the world stage as a middle tier team.
If the US Soccer Federation isnít developing players on skills  
Rick in Dallas : 6/10/2019 10:17 am : link
And creativity.. then this really is a shit show and we will never compete at the highest levels. Hell.. right now we are middle level tier team in CONCACAF. We are in a deep dive right now and the Gold Cup may
Be a major disaster with this current group.
I can only relate to my sonís career in soccer  
Rick in Dallas : 6/10/2019 10:26 am : link
He was coached by Phil Jones who played for Crystal Palace in the late 60ís.
Jeff played in the Dallas Classic League in the late 90ís and early 2000ís. Phil taught skills ad nauseum to Jeffís team and tactics and creativity.
From those lessons learned Jeffís team was very competitive in North Texas and also overseas in Wales.
How does the US Soccer Federation not develop players on skills, tactics and creativity.
I donít understand. I guess that is why USMNT sucks
Rick..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/10/2019 10:31 am : link
it isn't that skills aren't taught. It is that the system is fractured. Your son getting better training vs. other similar players is rampant across the US.

Where other countries have academies that are established, the US still basically trains kids on an ad hoc basis - although it is improving slowly.

And once they get to the elite levels, they are victim to whatever system is in place. That's why so many choose to play abroad.
RE: The most ironic..  
Jeffrey : 6/10/2019 10:34 am : link
In comment 14467980 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
thing about this statement:



Quote:


The joke continues ...
Spider56 : 9:16 am : link : reply
The US had the right coach in Klinsmann but he was run out by the politicos both on and off the field.



Is that Klinsmann was fairly well protected by "politicos". Sunil Gulati stood by him much longer than he should have.

Klinsmann ran himself out of town. after a decent World Cup finish, he could have been set for years - but he pissed it away, leading to one of the USA's more dark times in soccer since they've emerged on the world stage as a middle tier team.


Agree that Klinsman was the wrong coach for the US given the lack of a harmonious system for US soccer development and any consistency in player development. That said, Arena was also a mistake as a caretaker and the long delay before US Soccer announced a new coach has further set back the program. Still, I think that the future is bright with or without this coach and there are more quality players in the system now both here and abroad that with time the results will come. Major clubs are spending impressive amounts of money to bring in young American players. What is needed is a coach who will create a system that fits the talent we have, rather than forcing fits that make no sense.
Blaming Klinsmann At This Point  
Lambuth_Special : 6/10/2019 10:36 am : link
Seems pretty suspect to me.

Arena had four chances to get a road win on the Hex on the backs of mostly veteran players who should known what to do at that point. He failed.

I also fail to see how the current struggles of the team reflect bad selections Klinsmann made three years ago.

It also appears that at the youth levels, the system has been working fine for several years. The U-20 squad has had three straight solid World Cup performances. The U-17s had a good performance recently.

Seems like there's an issue translating the youth performances to the Senior team and a lot of young players failing to materialize (Hyndman, Rubin, Zelalem, etc.) at the professional level which is thinning the pipeline. Also the entire generation of players that failed the qualify for the 2012 Olympics (Boyd, Shea, Adu, Agudelo) really hurt the team as well.
sort of a macro point but think about how hard finding good coaching  
Eric on Li : 6/10/2019 10:43 am : link
is at the highest levels of the major pro sports and even CBB/CFB where the earning potential is 10's of millions of dollars - which fundamentally attracts a deeper pool of people and likely a higher end of talent.

Yes - the US should be able to take advantage of the lucrative environments elsewhere that create top tier coaching talents and potentially outsource that, but that brings in cultural fit issues which were obviously at the core of why Klinnsman didn't work out.
Blaming..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/10/2019 10:50 am : link
Klinsmann isn't suspect at all. He brought a series of bad moves, infighting with players and creating confusion on who would play and when in a system that had prior to that not had uncertainty.

Arena was a last gasp to try and qualify after Klinsmann got off to a horrendous start, and the team still came one game away from qualifying.

Klinsmann had fractured the team so much that it wasn't just he was losing - it was the manner of the losses:
Quote:
It's not just that Klinsmann's U.S. team had been losing since the 2014 World Cup. It's who they lost to and how.

Their 2015 Gold Cup semifinal loss to Jamaica was their first to a Caribbean team on home soil since 1969. Their March loss to Guatemala was their first defeat at the hands of Los Chapines since 1988. Their loss to Mexico on November 11 was their first home World Cup qualifying loss to their rivals since 1972. And their 4-0 loss to Costa Rica four days later was their worst shutout loss in qualifying in more than three decades.


And he was arrogant too. Playing Alejandro Bedoya as a defensive midfielder, Matt Besler as a left back and Michael Bradley as an attacking midfielder were just some of the times when he put players out of position, they struggled, and then Klinsmann refused to take the blame for putting them in bad spots. Beasley was used as a hybrid wing back of sorts in a system that didn't use one!
As far as the youth squads finding success, I can't say  
Zeke's Alibi : 6/10/2019 11:10 am : link
for certain, but have you seen American kids compared to their world counterparts. Bigger, faster, stronger. I think this is the unique brand of soccer we should be pursuing. We develop unique athletes here, and it is why we haven't had any issue developing goalies. Develop an identity around a strong defense and goalie and use your athletes to put pressure on the ball and force the ball forward. Part of the problem is the delusion we may be an elite soccer country one day and trying to emulate their styles and not using some of the unique advantages we have here.
MB as an attacking mid just brought back about 20 different  
Zeke's Alibi : 6/10/2019 11:12 am : link
memories of him refusing to pull trigger or completely missing the goal.
Don't follow soccer at all  
idiotsavant : 6/10/2019 11:24 am : link
But here's a few:

Be careful about our tendancy to identity prodigies early, in the USA. Each group of kids has it's musical kid, it's actor, it's doctor, all by the age of ten.

Whereas one can imagine, that in the USA and in Europe, many kids play, the assumption here is probably that we know who the good ones are early. No you don't.

Presume you have no idea until the player is 23 and has had a chance in a real soccer environment, league, what have you.

Second, coaching and style of play counts. Look at how amatuerish a talented Wales team seemed vs the grown up style of play at (was is Croatia?)

Patience, ball controlling, defense and mindful attacking. As opposed to schoolyard and talent.
Maybe the classic Americans solution  
idiotsavant : 6/10/2019 11:45 am : link
Would be to have a pro paid+ summer league for the 17-24 year olds.

NOT just recruiting "known soccer talents" (because we should admit we really don't know, especially that early) but ANY kids who want basically free camp plus paid salary for the summer and who can demonstrate a high level of athletic skill and coachability.

Broaden the pool with like 40 teams x 30 roster each, even given low pay itl still be a great gig.
RE: Maybe the classic Americans solution  
Del Shofner : 6/10/2019 11:57 am : link
In comment 14468101 idiotsavant said:
Quote:
Would be to have a pro paid+ summer league for the 17-24 year olds.


You're forgetting about the NCAA. Anyone in that league will have to give up college soccer, and for good players that's often a free ride worth $200k and occupies them from ages 18-21 in what is generally a very unprofessional soccer environment.

The elephant in the room is that the US has college soccer that's worth a lot of money to kids, and other countries don't. Only the very talented and brave few can forego college soccer and turn pro. Unlike football or to some extent basketball, college soccer does not develop players for pro soccer, it frequently hinders their development.
More inclusivity less exclusivity  
idiotsavant : 6/10/2019 12:00 pm : link
Basketball is still great here because any kid who walks down to the local public courts can play ad hoc, join a game and try vs the best kids in his area.

Not so soccer. True, central Americans do play lots of pickup games, but for formerly mainstream middle class types it's the special shoes, uniforms, school teams, competitiveness, parents that can do the slog, etc.
Del.  
idiotsavant : 6/10/2019 12:06 pm : link
True, but what have we all learned about college and sports recently?

It's a situation pre selected by parents who want to help their kids go to college and keep them busy in soccer camps etc etc and that's great, but it's not nearly as meritocratic - in pure soccer terms - obviously as what Europe does.

It's probably meritocratic, in another sense, if you believe that all that positioning and gaming of your kids amounts to a form of merit. Ok. Fine, I see that.
Remember when Klinsmann in a qualifier  
ColHowPepper : 6/10/2019 12:06 pm : link
came out in a completely unpracticed 3-5-2? Players had to beg him on the sideline just before the end of the first half to throw it overboard, which he did, beginning at the 46th minute. Experimenting with players out of position w/o practice time, just nuts stuff.

All that said, yesterday the back 4 were, once again, just atrocious, let alone Steffens gaffe leading to the first goal (a HS, first start-worthy mistake).

Their spacing was way off, huge gaps between Miazga and Long (who was badly undressed and showed his limitations). For three cycles now, the defenders, particularly the two CBs, are very poor in recognition of what is building in the middle third, slow to react (which exacerbates the first), and pedestrian in marking in attempts to offset their mis-reads. It is plain maddening that some how at the 'highest level' there are not more instinctive and effective players. It is less noticeable on the outside where pure athleticism can help offset, but still problematic.
So, whereas the college kids won't join  
idiotsavant : 6/10/2019 12:07 pm : link
Who's to say those ones exclusively have the best potential at the next level?

I would not presume that.
Hey, Del,  
ColHowPepper : 6/10/2019 12:08 pm : link
did you pay a visit to CT last w/e?
There are some really good reads..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/10/2019 12:32 pm : link
out there about Klinsmann and Gulati. Klinsmann was his "white whale". And Gulati was going to try and get Klinsmann no matter what.

He basically was going to force the coach into the system even though it should have been apparent from his other forays that he wouldn't have been a good fit.

I think Gulati was just inducted in the Soccer Hall of Fame and his major accomplishment was mismanaging an organization that had been trending upward.

And he's a Bucknell grad, so I should be inclined to give him credit. That's just how atrocious and arrogant Gulati was.
FMiC  
ColHowPepper : 6/10/2019 1:25 pm : link
yeah, I remember a couple of exhaustive histories of Gulati's being enamored and recruitment of Klinsmann, filled with astute observations of the dysfunction inside USSF. It was a bad look then, and now.

At some point, if Berhalter fails, the questions will be two fold: if no coach can get the player pool up to regional (let alone WCA) competitiveness, maybe it's the players? If not that, or because of that, maybe USSF has to tear itself down. Good luck with that. viz. FIFA's cleaning its house.

The positive that Klinsmann did bring to the USMNT selection process was opening up the pool to non-traditional pipelines. It just didn't work, or work fast enough.
WC not WCA  
ColHowPepper : 6/10/2019 1:26 pm : link
.
Col..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/10/2019 1:30 pm : link
that's a good point about opening up the pool. In what should have been a positive it may have worked against us and contributed a bit to the situation we are in (which may not be as dire as people are saying).

Klinsmann getting foreign nationals to play was a coup over previous years, but then he gave favortism to those players, which then repressed some homegrown talent - which makes the question you are asking a bit hard to answer.

Not sure if it is the players, and tearing it down would be a massive undertaking.
RE: Hey, Del,  
Del Shofner : 6/10/2019 1:57 pm : link
In comment 14468127 ColHowPepper said:
Quote:
did you pay a visit to CT last w/e?


Nope, was enjoying the fine weather in Dutchess County.

Hope all is well.
on balance agree with all that  
ColHowPepper : 6/10/2019 2:01 pm : link
as with Klinsmann, and since, somehow the players surviving selection gauntlet are not succeeding with the coaching vision at the top, even as the latter continues to change. Something is not clicking. One thing I know in my gut, the guys they're selecting for CBs in their 4-4-2 are not the rights guys. I know there are Brooks fans here, and maybe he was supposed to fill Onyewu's role, he just wasn't the answer. And the others are just so much clueless statues. The MFs as a group have been lackluster as well, Hard to believe the pool is so talent-challenged.
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