Yes, except the Perkins part is a bit misleading. Shula was asked about Perkins so he was reacting to a reporter. Patti did tweet out one or two positive tweets on him too.
Not true. First of all, Dan Schneier is fast becoming required reading.
Second, there are some valuable things you can learn from the OTA's, such as who's lining up where, who's getting 1st Team reps, and which battles in training camp will be the fiercest.
OTA's are fine if you look at them as a prelude to the real action that will go down in training camp and the preseason.
decent RB may not make the team this year. I like Gallman, Perkins was good his rookie season and Smith is a good change of pace RB. Penny was a pleasant surprise last season.
Also, if this CJ Conrad kid continues he may push Ellison off the team. Simonsen is probably the one on the bottom of the chart. I suppose it comes down to how many TEs they keep.
I've argued since the inception of this site that the voluntary workouts are important. With the end of two-a-days and the reduction of training camp practices to about 20, they are absolutely essential in my book.
But there are those out there who insist they are virtually meaningless, despite what the coaches says. I would argue from the classwork alone they are critical.
Eric, I agree with you about the classroom work. Â
It seems that they actually had more players missed the mandatory mini camp than OTAs.
Perkins rise could be due Gallmans fumbling...
Whoever says the Jones performance is no big deal would be the first to scream if he was doing lousy.
Would like Remmers and Solder practing to just get familiar, and like Pulley putting pressure on Hapalio....but finally feeling OL is no longer our biggest concern.
RE: Eric, I agree with you about the classroom work. Â
Especially for a guy like Corey Coleman. But the on-field stuff? With no pads, no hitting? Really doesn't do much for me.
Technique work, route running, coordinating coverage responsibilities, blocking schemes (if you ever watch line work at camp, it's amazing to watch how the line has to adjust on whom to block, even coming off the first guy and hitting the next), pass receivers vs. pass defenders in 7-on-7 and 11-on-11 drills, red zone work (both offense and defense), two-minute drills (again offense and defense), etc.
It all matters. Again, there are about 20 practices in training camp.
It seems that they actually had more players missed the mandatory mini camp than OTAs.
Perkins rise could be due Gallmans fumbling...
Whoever says the Jones performance is no big deal would be the first to scream if he was doing lousy.
Would like Remmers and Solder practing to just get familiar, and like Pulley putting pressure on Hapalio....but finally feeling OL is no longer our biggest concern.
I've argued since the inception of this site that the voluntary workouts are important. With the end of two-a-days and the reduction of training camp practices to about 20, they are absolutely essential in my book.
But there are those out there who insist they are virtually meaningless, despite what the coaches says. I would argue from the classwork alone they are critical.
I don't think that there is a groundswell of dismissal of OTA's. Most, if not all but one or two, agree with you.
What you are seeing (and reacting to) is people reacting to the Lombardo's of the world who suddenly pivoted from mocking and slamming DG for picking Jones and, based on him being better than they insisted he was earlier and also full of native despite towards the incumbent, declared that he should be the starting QB from jump. From that perspective, and, unlike said media douches, knowing that playing QB in the NFL is more than throwing against handicapped defenses and one impromptu run, they argue caution in willy-nilly promoting him.
I don't know, I see a pretty vocal group insisting the OTAs don't matter.
It's not that they don't matter - it's that it's ridiculous to make any definitive statements one way or the other because of them. Coming to conclusions about any player or group of players based on their performance at OTA's and mini-camps is asinine.
I don't know, I see a pretty vocal group insisting the OTAs don't matter.
It's not that they don't matter - it's that it's ridiculous to make any definitive statements one way or the other because of them. Coming to conclusions about any player or group of players based on their performance at OTA's and mini-camps is asinine.
I don't know, I see a pretty vocal group insisting the OTAs don't matter.
It's not that they don't matter - it's that it's ridiculous to make any definitive statements one way or the other because of them. Coming to conclusions about any player or group of players based on their performance at OTA's and mini-camps is asinine.
Has anyone done that?
Well we did have a thread somewhere about the Bleacher Report guy who read a couple tweets and insists that Jones should now start over the "decrepit QB" incumbent.
I don't know, I see a pretty vocal group insisting the OTAs don't matter.
It's not that they don't matter - it's that it's ridiculous to make any definitive statements one way or the other because of them. Coming to conclusions about any player or group of players based on their performance at OTA's and mini-camps is asinine.
Has anyone done that?
Are you kidding? Just check out some of the threads, comments, and articles posted at this place.
I've argued since the inception of this site that the voluntary workouts are important. With the end of two-a-days and the reduction of training camp practices to about 20, they are absolutely essential in my book.
But there are those out there who insist they are virtually meaningless, despite what the coaches says. I would argue from the classwork alone they are critical.
The sentiment should have shifted after the last CBA was implemented that reduced the workouts and practice time.
When you talk to actual football people, they rank importance in the following order:
1) Joint practices/scrimmages
2) Training Camp
3) OTA's
4) Rookie Camp
5) Preseason Games
The rookie camps and OTA's give the first structure to many players and set the expectations for the classroom. Training Camp is obvious in that it sets the stage for the season and the joint practices/scrimmages are where two teams can go up against one another without the facade of it being a fake game. They will run specific drills and situational scenarios.
In today's NFL, preseason games are nearly meaningless. But if you ask the average NFL fan, they put a lot of importance in those games.
there's a difference between saying they're unimportant Â
Not true. First of all, Dan Schneier is fast becoming required reading.
.
He absolutely is...I'm not sure there is a writer who invests more work in covering the Giants. He puts out a tremendous amount of information and detail. He also runs a podcast with Nick Turchyn that is exceptional.
I've argued since the inception of this site that the voluntary workouts are important. With the end of two-a-days and the reduction of training camp practices to about 20, they are absolutely essential in my book.
But there are those out there who insist they are virtually meaningless, despite what the coaches says. I would argue from the classwork alone they are critical.
The sentiment should have shifted after the last CBA was implemented that reduced the workouts and practice time.
When you talk to actual football people, they rank importance in the following order:
1) Joint practices/scrimmages
2) Training Camp
3) OTA's
4) Rookie Camp
5) Preseason Games
The rookie camps and OTA's give the first structure to many players and set the expectations for the classroom. Training Camp is obvious in that it sets the stage for the season and the joint practices/scrimmages are where two teams can go up against one another without the facade of it being a fake game. They will run specific drills and situational scenarios.
In today's NFL, preseason games are nearly meaningless. But if you ask the average NFL fan, they put a lot of importance in those games.
I wouldn't diminish preseason games to that level FMIC.
You are still going full 11 on 11 against a defense you are not facing day in and day out along with no compromise in NFL rules i.e. full tackle , bump and run for the corners etc.
I think there is quite a bit of evaluation that can be gleaned from them for the younger players with something to prove especially at certian positions like QB.
Now with established vets who may essentially know their role on the team (Barkley, Solder, Eli, Ogletree, Jenkins etc.) that may be a different story entirely.
actually got into an argument with someone the other day about Mini camps and OTA's not meaning much lol,He was insisting that they do not matter and i was trying to explain to him that with less practice time during camp and less practice time during the off season these practices have become extremely important in today's NFL .They do nothing in camp now a days .Half the practices are gloried walk throughs .These practices are very important imo
I love the point about the Dline and being versatile Â
GIANTS HAVE A UNIQUE PLAN FOR THE DEFENSIVE LINE
During the first two mandatory minicamp practices, the Giants have made some changes to their defensive line. Most importantly, rookie first-round draft pick Dexter Lawrence has gone from rotating in with the first-team defense during voluntary OTAs to earning his spot with the first-team defense for the vast majority of his practice reps during both mandatory minicamp practices. Lawrence is starting alongside defensive linemen Dalvin Tomlinson and B.J. Hill. Lawrence, Tomlinson, and Hill provide the Giants with a potential strength on their defensive front and three players who are 25 years old or under and all under their rookie contract through the 2020 season or longer.
Perhaps the most important development on the defensive line is how defensive coordinator James Bettcher is utilizing his three starting defensive linemen. Through the first two minicamp practices, all three starters have been used interchangeably at all three defensive line positions. This will allow another layer of unpredictability to a Giants defense that is predicated on this overarching concept.
"I think you have to be (versatile up front) the way the league is now," Bettcher said. "I think there is enough motions, adjustments and offensive guys are good enough now. For the most part, they are not going to let a nose just sit there and play nose the whole game. They are going to make him slide and extend the play on guards and edges of guards. They are going to motion and do enough to have to be interchangeable enough to defend what we see from an offensive standpoint. Number two, I think they all have enough position flex to do that. We want guys to have the flexibility to play up and down the line. A really good NFL defensive line room has a great rotation. The four, five and six hole spots, whoever those guys are, gaining reps, 15 snaps, 12 snaps, 20 snaps depending on the game, those are important snaps just like the other snaps."
I also think that is another reason Giants moved on from Snacks. Snacks wasn't going to moving from 1 tech, to 3tech and 5tech. Lawrence is more versatile and can play all 3 spots, and has already been taking 1st team reps with the nickel unit which shows Giants have plans for him getting opportunities to help generate pressure.
actually got into an argument with someone the other day about Mini camps and OTA's not meaning much lol,He was insisting that they do not matter and i was trying to explain to him that with less practice time during camp and less practice time during the off season these practices have become extremely important in today's NFL .They do nothing in camp now a days .Half the practices are gloried walk throughs .These practices are very important imo
Line play is something much tougher to evaluate when the contact is limited.
However in a preseason game that's a different story
I've argued since the inception of this site that the voluntary workouts are important. With the end of two-a-days and the reduction of training camp practices to about 20, they are absolutely essential in my book.
But there are those out there who insist they are virtually meaningless, despite what the coaches says. I would argue from the classwork alone they are critical.
The sentiment should have shifted after the last CBA was implemented that reduced the workouts and practice time.
When you talk to actual football people, they rank importance in the following order:
1) Joint practices/scrimmages
2) Training Camp
3) OTA's
4) Rookie Camp
5) Preseason Games
The rookie camps and OTA's give the first structure to many players and set the expectations for the classroom. Training Camp is obvious in that it sets the stage for the season and the joint practices/scrimmages are where two teams can go up against one another without the facade of it being a fake game. They will run specific drills and situational scenarios.
In today's NFL, preseason games are nearly meaningless. But if you ask the average NFL fan, they put a lot of importance in those games.
I wouldn't diminish preseason games to that level FMIC.
You are still going full 11 on 11 against a defense you are not facing day in and day out along with no compromise in NFL rules i.e. full tackle , bump and run for the corners etc.
I think there is quite a bit of evaluation that can be gleaned from them for the younger players with something to prove especially at certian positions like QB.
Now with established vets who may essentially know their role on the team (Barkley, Solder, Eli, Ogletree, Jenkins etc.) that may be a different story entirely.
I've mentioned this quite a few times, but coaches would completely eliminate preseason games if given the chance, especially if they could add more joint scrimmages.
Every year, they have discussions at the combine on that topic. I sat through one that was really telling. There was a lot of agreement that the coaches don't look at the preseason games as live action. They don't gameplan for it and they do it to appease the owners and fans.
One very prominent coach said that in his career, preseason may have determined roster spots for 5 players if that. Other coaches have said that they are only looking to see how a unit plays in specific situations, or evaluating small school guys on how they react to a stadium of fans and the faster pace of the NFL.
I know you guys give a lot of pushback on preseason games mattering, but in the scheme of all the team does, I don't think you'd find many, if any coaches who would put in higher than last in the pecking order of importance.
I've argued since the inception of this site that the voluntary workouts are important. With the end of two-a-days and the reduction of training camp practices to about 20, they are absolutely essential in my book.
But there are those out there who insist they are virtually meaningless, despite what the coaches says. I would argue from the classwork alone they are critical.
The sentiment should have shifted after the last CBA was implemented that reduced the workouts and practice time.
When you talk to actual football people, they rank importance in the following order:
1) Joint practices/scrimmages
2) Training Camp
3) OTA's
4) Rookie Camp
5) Preseason Games
The rookie camps and OTA's give the first structure to many players and set the expectations for the classroom. Training Camp is obvious in that it sets the stage for the season and the joint practices/scrimmages are where two teams can go up against one another without the facade of it being a fake game. They will run specific drills and situational scenarios.
In today's NFL, preseason games are nearly meaningless. But if you ask the average NFL fan, they put a lot of importance in those games.
I wouldn't diminish preseason games to that level FMIC.
You are still going full 11 on 11 against a defense you are not facing day in and day out along with no compromise in NFL rules i.e. full tackle , bump and run for the corners etc.
I think there is quite a bit of evaluation that can be gleaned from them for the younger players with something to prove especially at certian positions like QB.
Now with established vets who may essentially know their role on the team (Barkley, Solder, Eli, Ogletree, Jenkins etc.) that may be a different story entirely.
I've mentioned this quite a few times, but coaches would completely eliminate preseason games if given the chance, especially if they could add more joint scrimmages.
Every year, they have discussions at the combine on that topic. I sat through one that was really telling. There was a lot of agreement that the coaches don't look at the preseason games as live action. They don't gameplan for it and they do it to appease the owners and fans.
One very prominent coach said that in his career, preseason may have determined roster spots for 5 players if that. Other coaches have said that they are only looking to see how a unit plays in specific situations, or evaluating small school guys on how they react to a stadium of fans and the faster pace of the NFL.
I know you guys give a lot of pushback on preseason games mattering, but in the scheme of all the team does, I don't think you'd find many, if any coaches who would put in higher than last in the pecking order of importance.
And yet here and in the media, the importance given to the preseason (beyond getting in shape and the playbook/classroom work) and the LIMITED, non-cohesive units PT, is given such absurd importance, leading to absurd judgements, it is actually kinda amusing at times..
the Media writes for the public. The public sees the preseason games and not much else - so they use those as excellent barometers of how players are doing.
Plus, as we've seen time and again from the beats, they can't even come to a consensus on what they are seeing, if they can see the practices at all. I know at any preseason practices I've been to (for any team), the beats are typing away on their phones, talking to other people or looking for specific targets to interview. They very rarely seem to be actively watching the field.
I've argued since the inception of this site that the voluntary workouts are important. With the end of two-a-days and the reduction of training camp practices to about 20, they are absolutely essential in my book.
But there are those out there who insist they are virtually meaningless, despite what the coaches says. I would argue from the classwork alone they are critical.
The sentiment should have shifted after the last CBA was implemented that reduced the workouts and practice time.
When you talk to actual football people, they rank importance in the following order:
1) Joint practices/scrimmages
2) Training Camp
3) OTA's
4) Rookie Camp
5) Preseason Games
The rookie camps and OTA's give the first structure to many players and set the expectations for the classroom. Training Camp is obvious in that it sets the stage for the season and the joint practices/scrimmages are where two teams can go up against one another without the facade of it being a fake game. They will run specific drills and situational scenarios.
In today's NFL, preseason games are nearly meaningless. But if you ask the average NFL fan, they put a lot of importance in those games.
I wouldn't diminish preseason games to that level FMIC.
You are still going full 11 on 11 against a defense you are not facing day in and day out along with no compromise in NFL rules i.e. full tackle , bump and run for the corners etc.
I think there is quite a bit of evaluation that can be gleaned from them for the younger players with something to prove especially at certian positions like QB.
Now with established vets who may essentially know their role on the team (Barkley, Solder, Eli, Ogletree, Jenkins etc.) that may be a different story entirely.
I've mentioned this quite a few times, but coaches would completely eliminate preseason games if given the chance, especially if they could add more joint scrimmages.
Every year, they have discussions at the combine on that topic. I sat through one that was really telling. There was a lot of agreement that the coaches don't look at the preseason games as live action. They don't gameplan for it and they do it to appease the owners and fans.
One very prominent coach said that in his career, preseason may have determined roster spots for 5 players if that. Other coaches have said that they are only looking to see how a unit plays in specific situations, or evaluating small school guys on how they react to a stadium of fans and the faster pace of the NFL.
I know you guys give a lot of pushback on preseason games mattering, but in the scheme of all the team does, I don't think you'd find many, if any coaches who would put in higher than last in the pecking order of importance.
And yet here and in the media, the importance given to the preseason (beyond getting in shape and the playbook/classroom work) and the LIMITED, non-cohesive units PT, is given such absurd importance, leading to absurd judgements, it is actually kinda amusing at times..
I agree that's its importance is over estimated by most. Because the coaches who have been doing this for years have pretty good eyes to pick up on stuff during the OTAs camp etc and get a pretty good feel for a player even if it isnt live full blown tackle action.
But I dont think we can swing the pendulum fully the other way either and say it is of little importance either especially for fringe players and/or when the competition could be close (i.e. Halapio/Pulley , Haley/Beal, Goodson/Davis/ Connelly, Conrad/Simonson).
Coaches hate it I think moreso that the risk of injury can outweigh the evaluations that they think they have already accumulated throughout camp. And there is certainly merit to that.
the Media writes for the public. The public sees the preseason games and not much else - so they use those as excellent barometers of how players are doing.
Plus, as we've seen time and again from the beats, they can't even come to a consensus on what they are seeing, if they can see the practices at all. I know at any preseason practices I've been to (for any team), the beats are typing away on their phones, talking to other people or looking for specific targets to interview. They very rarely seem to be actively watching the field.
Agreed. in all the years I attended practices in Albany, the only media that seemed to pay attention to what actually was going on was Garafolo and Patti..That’s about it
I don't know, I see a pretty vocal group insisting the OTAs don't matter.
It's not that they don't matter - it's that it's ridiculous to make any definitive statements one way or the other because of them. Coming to conclusions about any player or group of players based on their performance at OTA's and mini-camps is asinine.
I don't know, I see a pretty vocal group insisting the OTAs don't matter.
It's not that they don't matter - it's that it's ridiculous to make any definitive statements one way or the other because of them. Coming to conclusions about any player or group of players based on their performance at OTA's and mini-camps is asinine.
Agreed 100%
I agree as well. Just because something is an important element in the teaching :preparation process doesn’t mean it is a good measuring stick for evaluations. I’ve no doubt the coaches can glean insights from them, but good luck getting an honest answer from that lot, and the media doesn’t know what the hell they’re watching so theirs takes are likewise pretty useless.
I think the only definitive statement that I’ve witnessed Â
Is that Daniel Jones has been looking really good in OTAs and that’s more encouraging than hearing that he’s struggling in OTAs. I think that’s a logical take(especially considering the overwhelming negative backlash surrounding his selection with the 6th pick in the draft).
Yes, except the Perkins part is a bit misleading. Shula was asked about Perkins so he was reacting to a reporter. Patti did tweet out one or two positive tweets on him too.
Not true. First of all, Dan Schneier is fast becoming required reading.
Second, there are some valuable things you can learn from the OTA's, such as who's lining up where, who's getting 1st Team reps, and which battles in training camp will be the fiercest.
OTA's are fine if you look at them as a prelude to the real action that will go down in training camp and the preseason.
Also, if this CJ Conrad kid continues he may push Ellison off the team. Simonsen is probably the one on the bottom of the chart. I suppose it comes down to how many TEs they keep.
But there are those out there who insist they are virtually meaningless, despite what the coaches says. I would argue from the classwork alone they are critical.
Perkins rise could be due Gallmans fumbling...
Whoever says the Jones performance is no big deal would be the first to scream if he was doing lousy.
Would like Remmers and Solder practing to just get familiar, and like Pulley putting pressure on Hapalio....but finally feeling OL is no longer our biggest concern.
Technique work, route running, coordinating coverage responsibilities, blocking schemes (if you ever watch line work at camp, it's amazing to watch how the line has to adjust on whom to block, even coming off the first guy and hitting the next), pass receivers vs. pass defenders in 7-on-7 and 11-on-11 drills, red zone work (both offense and defense), two-minute drills (again offense and defense), etc.
It all matters. Again, there are about 20 practices in training camp.
Perkins rise could be due Gallmans fumbling...
Whoever says the Jones performance is no big deal would be the first to scream if he was doing lousy.
Would like Remmers and Solder practing to just get familiar, and like Pulley putting pressure on Hapalio....but finally feeling OL is no longer our biggest concern.
Beal was excused due to a personal issue.
But there are those out there who insist they are virtually meaningless, despite what the coaches says. I would argue from the classwork alone they are critical.
I don't think that there is a groundswell of dismissal of OTA's. Most, if not all but one or two, agree with you.
What you are seeing (and reacting to) is people reacting to the Lombardo's of the world who suddenly pivoted from mocking and slamming DG for picking Jones and, based on him being better than they insisted he was earlier and also full of native despite towards the incumbent, declared that he should be the starting QB from jump. From that perspective, and, unlike said media douches, knowing that playing QB in the NFL is more than throwing against handicapped defenses and one impromptu run, they argue caution in willy-nilly promoting him.
But how many are not referencing Jones or Eli?
It's not that they don't matter - it's that it's ridiculous to make any definitive statements one way or the other because of them. Coming to conclusions about any player or group of players based on their performance at OTA's and mini-camps is asinine.
Quote:
I don't know, I see a pretty vocal group insisting the OTAs don't matter.
It's not that they don't matter - it's that it's ridiculous to make any definitive statements one way or the other because of them. Coming to conclusions about any player or group of players based on their performance at OTA's and mini-camps is asinine.
Has anyone done that?
Quote:
In comment 14467929 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
I don't know, I see a pretty vocal group insisting the OTAs don't matter.
It's not that they don't matter - it's that it's ridiculous to make any definitive statements one way or the other because of them. Coming to conclusions about any player or group of players based on their performance at OTA's and mini-camps is asinine.
Has anyone done that?
Well we did have a thread somewhere about the Bleacher Report guy who read a couple tweets and insists that Jones should now start over the "decrepit QB" incumbent.
I don't know, I see a pretty vocal group insisting the OTAs don't matter.
It's not that they don't matter - it's that it's ridiculous to make any definitive statements one way or the other because of them. Coming to conclusions about any player or group of players based on their performance at OTA's and mini-camps is asinine.
Has anyone done that?
Are you kidding? Just check out some of the threads, comments, and articles posted at this place.
But there are those out there who insist they are virtually meaningless, despite what the coaches says. I would argue from the classwork alone they are critical.
The sentiment should have shifted after the last CBA was implemented that reduced the workouts and practice time.
When you talk to actual football people, they rank importance in the following order:
1) Joint practices/scrimmages
2) Training Camp
3) OTA's
4) Rookie Camp
5) Preseason Games
The rookie camps and OTA's give the first structure to many players and set the expectations for the classroom. Training Camp is obvious in that it sets the stage for the season and the joint practices/scrimmages are where two teams can go up against one another without the facade of it being a fake game. They will run specific drills and situational scenarios.
In today's NFL, preseason games are nearly meaningless. But if you ask the average NFL fan, they put a lot of importance in those games.
Quote:
OTAs don't matter crowd isn't going to like this.
Not true. First of all, Dan Schneier is fast becoming required reading.
.
He absolutely is...I'm not sure there is a writer who invests more work in covering the Giants. He puts out a tremendous amount of information and detail. He also runs a podcast with Nick Turchyn that is exceptional.
Quote:
I've argued since the inception of this site that the voluntary workouts are important. With the end of two-a-days and the reduction of training camp practices to about 20, they are absolutely essential in my book.
But there are those out there who insist they are virtually meaningless, despite what the coaches says. I would argue from the classwork alone they are critical.
The sentiment should have shifted after the last CBA was implemented that reduced the workouts and practice time.
When you talk to actual football people, they rank importance in the following order:
1) Joint practices/scrimmages
2) Training Camp
3) OTA's
4) Rookie Camp
5) Preseason Games
The rookie camps and OTA's give the first structure to many players and set the expectations for the classroom. Training Camp is obvious in that it sets the stage for the season and the joint practices/scrimmages are where two teams can go up against one another without the facade of it being a fake game. They will run specific drills and situational scenarios.
In today's NFL, preseason games are nearly meaningless. But if you ask the average NFL fan, they put a lot of importance in those games.
I wouldn't diminish preseason games to that level FMIC.
You are still going full 11 on 11 against a defense you are not facing day in and day out along with no compromise in NFL rules i.e. full tackle , bump and run for the corners etc.
I think there is quite a bit of evaluation that can be gleaned from them for the younger players with something to prove especially at certian positions like QB.
Now with established vets who may essentially know their role on the team (Barkley, Solder, Eli, Ogletree, Jenkins etc.) that may be a different story entirely.
GIANTS HAVE A UNIQUE PLAN FOR THE DEFENSIVE LINE
During the first two mandatory minicamp practices, the Giants have made some changes to their defensive line. Most importantly, rookie first-round draft pick Dexter Lawrence has gone from rotating in with the first-team defense during voluntary OTAs to earning his spot with the first-team defense for the vast majority of his practice reps during both mandatory minicamp practices. Lawrence is starting alongside defensive linemen Dalvin Tomlinson and B.J. Hill. Lawrence, Tomlinson, and Hill provide the Giants with a potential strength on their defensive front and three players who are 25 years old or under and all under their rookie contract through the 2020 season or longer.
Perhaps the most important development on the defensive line is how defensive coordinator James Bettcher is utilizing his three starting defensive linemen. Through the first two minicamp practices, all three starters have been used interchangeably at all three defensive line positions. This will allow another layer of unpredictability to a Giants defense that is predicated on this overarching concept.
"I think you have to be (versatile up front) the way the league is now," Bettcher said. "I think there is enough motions, adjustments and offensive guys are good enough now. For the most part, they are not going to let a nose just sit there and play nose the whole game. They are going to make him slide and extend the play on guards and edges of guards. They are going to motion and do enough to have to be interchangeable enough to defend what we see from an offensive standpoint. Number two, I think they all have enough position flex to do that. We want guys to have the flexibility to play up and down the line. A really good NFL defensive line room has a great rotation. The four, five and six hole spots, whoever those guys are, gaining reps, 15 snaps, 12 snaps, 20 snaps depending on the game, those are important snaps just like the other snaps."
I also think that is another reason Giants moved on from Snacks. Snacks wasn't going to moving from 1 tech, to 3tech and 5tech. Lawrence is more versatile and can play all 3 spots, and has already been taking 1st team reps with the nickel unit which shows Giants have plans for him getting opportunities to help generate pressure.
Line play is something much tougher to evaluate when the contact is limited.
However in a preseason game that's a different story
Quote:
In comment 14467894 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
I've argued since the inception of this site that the voluntary workouts are important. With the end of two-a-days and the reduction of training camp practices to about 20, they are absolutely essential in my book.
But there are those out there who insist they are virtually meaningless, despite what the coaches says. I would argue from the classwork alone they are critical.
The sentiment should have shifted after the last CBA was implemented that reduced the workouts and practice time.
When you talk to actual football people, they rank importance in the following order:
1) Joint practices/scrimmages
2) Training Camp
3) OTA's
4) Rookie Camp
5) Preseason Games
The rookie camps and OTA's give the first structure to many players and set the expectations for the classroom. Training Camp is obvious in that it sets the stage for the season and the joint practices/scrimmages are where two teams can go up against one another without the facade of it being a fake game. They will run specific drills and situational scenarios.
In today's NFL, preseason games are nearly meaningless. But if you ask the average NFL fan, they put a lot of importance in those games.
I wouldn't diminish preseason games to that level FMIC.
You are still going full 11 on 11 against a defense you are not facing day in and day out along with no compromise in NFL rules i.e. full tackle , bump and run for the corners etc.
I think there is quite a bit of evaluation that can be gleaned from them for the younger players with something to prove especially at certian positions like QB.
Now with established vets who may essentially know their role on the team (Barkley, Solder, Eli, Ogletree, Jenkins etc.) that may be a different story entirely.
I've mentioned this quite a few times, but coaches would completely eliminate preseason games if given the chance, especially if they could add more joint scrimmages.
Every year, they have discussions at the combine on that topic. I sat through one that was really telling. There was a lot of agreement that the coaches don't look at the preseason games as live action. They don't gameplan for it and they do it to appease the owners and fans.
One very prominent coach said that in his career, preseason may have determined roster spots for 5 players if that. Other coaches have said that they are only looking to see how a unit plays in specific situations, or evaluating small school guys on how they react to a stadium of fans and the faster pace of the NFL.
I know you guys give a lot of pushback on preseason games mattering, but in the scheme of all the team does, I don't think you'd find many, if any coaches who would put in higher than last in the pecking order of importance.
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In comment 14467975 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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In comment 14467894 Eric from BBI said:
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I've argued since the inception of this site that the voluntary workouts are important. With the end of two-a-days and the reduction of training camp practices to about 20, they are absolutely essential in my book.
But there are those out there who insist they are virtually meaningless, despite what the coaches says. I would argue from the classwork alone they are critical.
The sentiment should have shifted after the last CBA was implemented that reduced the workouts and practice time.
When you talk to actual football people, they rank importance in the following order:
1) Joint practices/scrimmages
2) Training Camp
3) OTA's
4) Rookie Camp
5) Preseason Games
The rookie camps and OTA's give the first structure to many players and set the expectations for the classroom. Training Camp is obvious in that it sets the stage for the season and the joint practices/scrimmages are where two teams can go up against one another without the facade of it being a fake game. They will run specific drills and situational scenarios.
In today's NFL, preseason games are nearly meaningless. But if you ask the average NFL fan, they put a lot of importance in those games.
I wouldn't diminish preseason games to that level FMIC.
You are still going full 11 on 11 against a defense you are not facing day in and day out along with no compromise in NFL rules i.e. full tackle , bump and run for the corners etc.
I think there is quite a bit of evaluation that can be gleaned from them for the younger players with something to prove especially at certian positions like QB.
Now with established vets who may essentially know their role on the team (Barkley, Solder, Eli, Ogletree, Jenkins etc.) that may be a different story entirely.
I've mentioned this quite a few times, but coaches would completely eliminate preseason games if given the chance, especially if they could add more joint scrimmages.
Every year, they have discussions at the combine on that topic. I sat through one that was really telling. There was a lot of agreement that the coaches don't look at the preseason games as live action. They don't gameplan for it and they do it to appease the owners and fans.
One very prominent coach said that in his career, preseason may have determined roster spots for 5 players if that. Other coaches have said that they are only looking to see how a unit plays in specific situations, or evaluating small school guys on how they react to a stadium of fans and the faster pace of the NFL.
I know you guys give a lot of pushback on preseason games mattering, but in the scheme of all the team does, I don't think you'd find many, if any coaches who would put in higher than last in the pecking order of importance.
And yet here and in the media, the importance given to the preseason (beyond getting in shape and the playbook/classroom work) and the LIMITED, non-cohesive units PT, is given such absurd importance, leading to absurd judgements, it is actually kinda amusing at times..
Plus, as we've seen time and again from the beats, they can't even come to a consensus on what they are seeing, if they can see the practices at all. I know at any preseason practices I've been to (for any team), the beats are typing away on their phones, talking to other people or looking for specific targets to interview. They very rarely seem to be actively watching the field.
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In comment 14468029 Giantz_comeback said:
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In comment 14467975 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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In comment 14467894 Eric from BBI said:
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I've argued since the inception of this site that the voluntary workouts are important. With the end of two-a-days and the reduction of training camp practices to about 20, they are absolutely essential in my book.
But there are those out there who insist they are virtually meaningless, despite what the coaches says. I would argue from the classwork alone they are critical.
The sentiment should have shifted after the last CBA was implemented that reduced the workouts and practice time.
When you talk to actual football people, they rank importance in the following order:
1) Joint practices/scrimmages
2) Training Camp
3) OTA's
4) Rookie Camp
5) Preseason Games
The rookie camps and OTA's give the first structure to many players and set the expectations for the classroom. Training Camp is obvious in that it sets the stage for the season and the joint practices/scrimmages are where two teams can go up against one another without the facade of it being a fake game. They will run specific drills and situational scenarios.
In today's NFL, preseason games are nearly meaningless. But if you ask the average NFL fan, they put a lot of importance in those games.
I wouldn't diminish preseason games to that level FMIC.
You are still going full 11 on 11 against a defense you are not facing day in and day out along with no compromise in NFL rules i.e. full tackle , bump and run for the corners etc.
I think there is quite a bit of evaluation that can be gleaned from them for the younger players with something to prove especially at certian positions like QB.
Now with established vets who may essentially know their role on the team (Barkley, Solder, Eli, Ogletree, Jenkins etc.) that may be a different story entirely.
I've mentioned this quite a few times, but coaches would completely eliminate preseason games if given the chance, especially if they could add more joint scrimmages.
Every year, they have discussions at the combine on that topic. I sat through one that was really telling. There was a lot of agreement that the coaches don't look at the preseason games as live action. They don't gameplan for it and they do it to appease the owners and fans.
One very prominent coach said that in his career, preseason may have determined roster spots for 5 players if that. Other coaches have said that they are only looking to see how a unit plays in specific situations, or evaluating small school guys on how they react to a stadium of fans and the faster pace of the NFL.
I know you guys give a lot of pushback on preseason games mattering, but in the scheme of all the team does, I don't think you'd find many, if any coaches who would put in higher than last in the pecking order of importance.
And yet here and in the media, the importance given to the preseason (beyond getting in shape and the playbook/classroom work) and the LIMITED, non-cohesive units PT, is given such absurd importance, leading to absurd judgements, it is actually kinda amusing at times..
I agree that's its importance is over estimated by most. Because the coaches who have been doing this for years have pretty good eyes to pick up on stuff during the OTAs camp etc and get a pretty good feel for a player even if it isnt live full blown tackle action.
But I dont think we can swing the pendulum fully the other way either and say it is of little importance either especially for fringe players and/or when the competition could be close (i.e. Halapio/Pulley , Haley/Beal, Goodson/Davis/ Connelly, Conrad/Simonson).
Coaches hate it I think moreso that the risk of injury can outweigh the evaluations that they think they have already accumulated throughout camp. And there is certainly merit to that.
Plus, as we've seen time and again from the beats, they can't even come to a consensus on what they are seeing, if they can see the practices at all. I know at any preseason practices I've been to (for any team), the beats are typing away on their phones, talking to other people or looking for specific targets to interview. They very rarely seem to be actively watching the field.
Agreed. in all the years I attended practices in Albany, the only media that seemed to pay attention to what actually was going on was Garafolo and Patti..That’s about it
It does matter but its somewhere between what most fans think and what FMIC said.
But here's joe thomas' thoughts on the subject.
But that's just one pro football player's opinion. You're right.
So here's Jumbo Elliott.
How many full padded practices do teams now have in the summer? Five? Six?
Jumbo played during a time when he had 3x the amount of practice as the current player does.
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I don't know, I see a pretty vocal group insisting the OTAs don't matter.
It's not that they don't matter - it's that it's ridiculous to make any definitive statements one way or the other because of them. Coming to conclusions about any player or group of players based on their performance at OTA's and mini-camps is asinine.
Agreed 100%
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In comment 14467929 Eric from BBI said:
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I don't know, I see a pretty vocal group insisting the OTAs don't matter.
It's not that they don't matter - it's that it's ridiculous to make any definitive statements one way or the other because of them. Coming to conclusions about any player or group of players based on their performance at OTA's and mini-camps is asinine.
Agreed 100%