IMO the Durant injury not only kills any chance the Knicks will (or should) sign him, it also kills the potential Davis trade - which I am completely opposed to anyway. I think it would be foolish to give away all those players and picks for Davis, especially when he will not be paired with Durant. I'd rather keep the picks, draft Barrett or Morant (if available). And save at least one or two max slots for next season.
How would a Davis led team look like:
Davis, Irving (maybe) and little else. No Barrett, no Knox, no Mitchell Robinson, no Smith, no picks. That will get us to the playoffs but little else.
I'd rather see the young players develop and sign a top FA when and if available.
AD will cost too much for us to have a team left around him capable of winning a championship.
Durant may just re-up with the Warriors for a year, otherwise, I can just see it now: Knicks max him out, he sits for a while, and never fully returns to his old form while eating up our cap space.
Stay the course and build this up. Be smart with the cap space to keep options open for 2020 or 2021.
If they trade for AD and gut their team, they will be just like the Pelicans without Jrue Holiday, so they might want to avoid that trade too.
This is really a terrible turn of events as Durant should not have been playing, not sure if it was his ego or pressure from the team that drove him.
Anyway, I would still pursue AD and take my shot at pairing him with the likes of a Kyrie, Kemba, Kawhi or maybe even a couple lower level guys like Tobias Harris.
This is just really, really bad luck though, no way around it. And I have to believe this jeopardizes the pursuit of AD who, I have a hunch included the Knicks because of KD signing here.
It sucks and it would be a major letdown but if they have to just stay the course and draft Barrett and hang on to their own draft hopes and the Dallas picks, so be it.
Anyone know what the 2020 draft prospects are looking like right now?
I wouldn’t even want Kyrie to be the alpha on my team. Let him go to the Nets now.
What Nets model? they are free agency or bust, that is the model you want to follow?
And probably Knox as well.
Nobody ever says that Willis Reed was forced to play by the Knicks (and he was ineffective). Nobody said TO was forced to play in the Super Bowl by the Eagles.
Top players want to play in big games.
It is an unfortunate injury and it probably happened because of compensating for the existing injury, but this wasn't like the RGIII situation.
Ineffective is in the eye of the beholder. Never heard Marv do play by play of warm ups until Game 7 when Willis came out,hit his first couple of shots & the entire Laker team stopped warming up & watched Willis. Game time-Willis comes down,hits his first 2 jumpers,ignites the Garden crowd to a fever pitch & Clyde takes over(36 points,19 Assists),Knicks win their first NBA Championship. Hell of an ineffective night for the Captain!
Option 2: start working trades to take on players with expiring deals or 2 year deals, plus multiple 1st rounders, to stockpile for later. Build around the young guys and looks to supplement with a star in a year or two- and get another high pick in 2020.
Option 1 only works if Kawhi decides to sign. The other FA are supplementary pieces, not alphas. You shouldn't use up cap space just because you have it on non-alphas. That's how they ended up where they are today by making bad choices in the 90's and early 2000s.
Option 2 could get you enough pieces to move up in future drafts. This draft is likely locked in at the top- and not enough guys who move the needle after that.
but again all that stuff they did and they are in free agency or bust, they didnt build anything..
Marks who everyone loves had to use multiple draft picks to trade a contract he traded for and gave out...
if they want 2 max players they have to renounce half of their team, they didnt build anything if they are just tearing it down...
He wants to be in NY so that is something at least.
(Shaking head.)
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I feel the same way. Love what the Nets are doing regarding team building. I wish the Knicks would follow that model.
What Nets model? they are free agency or bust, that is the model you want to follow?
that is incorrect. they have 2 picks this year- traded next years lottery protected. have levert and allen and rights to dlo--- basically a team that was the 6th seed and has cap space... and have a defined system and culture.
so actually they arent that. to get Next level... they might be that for this season. but that is just a lazy comment
Look at the history of achilles injuries to star players- especially older ones. KD is already 31. Kobe was a little older- but never recovered his star ability.
Dominique Wilkins was diminished after tearing his at 31- though admittedly, he was all about athleticism anyway.
Elton Brand never recovered from the injury and was a role player upon his return.
KD might come back and be solid - but the explosiveness that allowed him to blow by guys on the drive and beat guys on the jumper will not be there anymore. He won't be a max FA guy anymore. He knows it, his agent knows it- which is why he was being described as "white as a sheet" after the game- and the Knicks know it.
Option 2: start working trades to take on players with expiring deals or 2 year deals, plus multiple 1st rounders, to stockpile for later. Build around the young guys and looks to supplement with a star in a year or two- and get another high pick in 2020.
Option 1 only works if Kawhi decides to sign. The other FA are supplementary pieces, not alphas. You shouldn't use up cap space just because you have it on non-alphas. That's how they ended up where they are today by making bad choices in the 90's and early 2000s.
Option 2 could get you enough pieces to move up in future drafts. This draft is likely locked in at the top- and not enough guys who move the needle after that.
Because of all the bad basketball we had to suffer through, option 2 seems undesirable right now, but assuming neither of the 2 other alphas (Leonard and AD) come here, it’s probably the direction they have to choose.
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In comment 14469037 Tony in Berlin said:
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I feel the same way. Love what the Nets are doing regarding team building. I wish the Knicks would follow that model.
What Nets model? they are free agency or bust, that is the model you want to follow?
that is incorrect. they have 2 picks this year- traded next years lottery protected. have levert and allen and rights to dlo--- basically a team that was the 6th seed and has cap space... and have a defined system and culture.
so actually they arent that. to get Next level... they might be that for this season. but that is just a lazy comment
There whole plan revolves getting 2 max slots and if it wasnt the plan they would notnof made that trade...
They are not building around their current core that they acquired, they want to build around 2 max slots and will renounce russell if they can accomplish that...
How is it anything different then what the knicks plan this offseason is? knicks have the exact same plan
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I feel the same way. Love what the Nets are doing regarding team building. I wish the Knicks would follow that model.
What Nets model? they are free agency or bust, that is the model you want to follow?
The Nets are already a playoff team and they had some of their best players lose significant time to injury last year.
Their model is based around player development, and they did it so well that they've opened eyes around the league to a new path for sustainable success for a team.
Why would you do that? KD is NOT going to be the same guy- look at what happened to Koba, Brant, and Wilkins after they tore their achilles. They were NEVER the same explosive star players again- they were good, but no longer great (though Brant was done after his).
If the Knicks want "ok", then go sign Kemba Walker and some other ok guys.
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In comment 14469037 Tony in Berlin said:
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I feel the same way. Love what the Nets are doing regarding team building. I wish the Knicks would follow that model.
What Nets model? they are free agency or bust, that is the model you want to follow?
The Nets are already a playoff team and they had some of their best players lose significant time to injury last year.
Their model is based around player development, and they did it so well that they've opened eyes around the league to a new path for sustainable success for a team.
If it was about player development they would not be going after 2 max slots and trying to sign kyrie irving..
There plan is not player development, they developed russell and if they get 2 guys to come are going to renounce him, how is that player eevelopment..
I give them credit for getting through the worst trade of all time by Billy King, but they are a long way from a championship contender.
Marks has made a number of bad moves and got a couple of breaks when teams matched outrageous contracts. They have drafted ok.
He just traded 2 1st round picks to free up space for Kyrie Irving.
If we want to really praise a model for building a team, have to look at the 2 teams in the finals and other teams like Denver.
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In comment 14469037 Tony in Berlin said:
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I feel the same way. Love what the Nets are doing regarding team building. I wish the Knicks would follow that model.
What Nets model? they are free agency or bust, that is the model you want to follow?
The Nets are already a playoff team and they had some of their best players lose significant time to injury last year.
Their model is based around player development, and they did it so well that they've opened eyes around the league to a new path for sustainable success for a team.
How did "we were a playoff team with our best players hurt" work for the celtics in 2019?
The nets dont have a "model".
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In comment 14469042 nygiants16 said:
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In comment 14469037 Tony in Berlin said:
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I feel the same way. Love what the Nets are doing regarding team building. I wish the Knicks would follow that model.
What Nets model? they are free agency or bust, that is the model you want to follow?
The Nets are already a playoff team and they had some of their best players lose significant time to injury last year.
Their model is based around player development, and they did it so well that they've opened eyes around the league to a new path for sustainable success for a team.
If it was about player development they would not be going after 2 max slots and trying to sign kyrie irving..
There plan is not player development, they developed russell and if they get 2 guys to come are going to renounce him, how is that player development..
you are making zero sense- they built the team with picks and development. the key players for them are Levert and Allen, and maybe Dlo if they dont get the big upside play instead. they have kurucs, traded for prince (replacing carrol and dudley minutes). They have Harris and Dinwiddie who are very friendly deals and developed players.
there is literally nothing similar other than both teams conveniently having cap space and being in NY---
I really dont have an issue with the Nets, but im not interested in following their model, which im not even sure what that model is. Make smart trades? Sure im down for that
And when you's crap out in 2020...
& the tank doesnt work due to the new lottery system...
it'll be save the max slots for 2021..
Hilarious..
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In comment 14469042 nygiants16 said:
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In comment 14469037 Tony in Berlin said:
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I feel the same way. Love what the Nets are doing regarding team building. I wish the Knicks would follow that model.
What Nets model? they are free agency or bust, that is the model you want to follow?
The Nets are already a playoff team and they had some of their best players lose significant time to injury last year.
Their model is based around player development, and they did it so well that they've opened eyes around the league to a new path for sustainable success for a team.
If it was about player development they would not be going after 2 max slots and trying to sign kyrie irving..
There plan is not player development, they developed russell and if they get 2 guys to come are going to renounce him, how is that player eevelopment..
Here is a potential ironic possibility.
Let's say that the Knicks don't get AD or Kawhi. That pursuit will take time. So, let's say we are now around July 3 or 4, and the Knicks have come up empty big game hunting.
Meanwhile, the Nets sign Kyrie and some other FA.
I think it would be a good idea at that point for the Knicks to reach out to Russell. He's only 23, which puts him closer in age to the Knicks core guys. Sure, he's a volume scorer- but he is also a willing passer. He has played under the "big lights" in LA.
If the Nets signed 2 big FA, they probably have to renounce Russell or refuse to match a big offer to the RFA.
That should set up the Knicks PG, give them a pair of young F (Knox and Barrett) to work with and a shot-blocking big (Robinson).
That would also leave significant cap space to make deals with. The Knicks could take on a big expiring deal in exchange for some draft picks.
Just an example (I am NOT syaing they should do this- this is only for illustrative purposes)- Boston could send Horford and the 2020 Memphis 1st rounder, plus Boston's own 1st rounder in 2020 to the Knicks for whatever filler Boston wants (such as Mudiay or Frank) the idea being to fee cap space for Boston to pursue a big man in a trade or FA.
Another example, if the Clippers are able to convince Kawhi and a second FA to go there, they might want to free up some cap space by dealing Gallinari. They could send Gallinari and Miami's 2021 1st rounder and Philly's 2020 1st rounder to the Knicks for filler- again, the idea being to free cap space.
Yet another- Houston might want to reduce its luxury tax burden- or even get under the tax- by trading Gordon. The Knicks could play the "long game" by asking for future 1sts from Houston- who may only be a contender for a couple more years. Perhaps Houston sends Gordon and its 2021 and 2023 first (unprotected, or at least only top 5 protected) to the Knicks for filler.
He's going to opt into his $31M option with GS. If there are any hard feelings, that's his revenge- use up big space on a guy who won't be able to play until the playoffs- if at all- next season. No one is going to give him $31M to sit next season.
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In comment 14469071 cactus said:
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In comment 14469042 nygiants16 said:
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In comment 14469037 Tony in Berlin said:
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I feel the same way. Love what the Nets are doing regarding team building. I wish the Knicks would follow that model.
What Nets model? they are free agency or bust, that is the model you want to follow?
The Nets are already a playoff team and they had some of their best players lose significant time to injury last year.
Their model is based around player development, and they did it so well that they've opened eyes around the league to a new path for sustainable success for a team.
If it was about player development they would not be going after 2 max slots and trying to sign kyrie irving..
There plan is not player development, they developed russell and if they get 2 guys to come are going to renounce him, how is that player development..
you are making zero sense- they built the team with picks and development. the key players for them are Levert and Allen, and maybe Dlo if they dont get the big upside play instead. they have kurucs, traded for prince (replacing carrol and dudley minutes). They have Harris and Dinwiddie who are very friendly deals and developed players.
there is literally nothing similar other than both teams conveniently having cap space and being in NY---
How is this any different than what the Knicks are doing? Basically their entire roster is guys that they drafted ( Knox, Robinson, Trier, Dotson, Ntilikina) our young players they are hoping to develop (Smith Jr). The only difference is that the Nets hit the reset button earlier than the Knicks did so their players are a couple of years older and further along in their development.
Just like the Nets, they will take their shot in free agency this summer because the opportunity is there.
Why would KD agree to that deal? There is no upside for him- he's already 31. He's not going to take a "make or break" deal at this point.
He's going to opt into the $31M option with GS, rehab completely- doubt he even thinks about taking the court until he's fully healthy- and try and return for the playoffs next year.
I'd also be nervous about a guy that tall and lanky and the related effects to his knees and feet if he's compensating.
It's a terrible and unfortunate injury. My favorite player of his generation. A major cautionary tale on 1) skipping a long-term max 2) taking less for the team.
This will be a Trainwreck, they have proven to never have a plan B unless you consider panic a plan b.
Let the stupid mistakes start.
Another 10 years of bad basketball.
Also Isiah Thomas said with his Achilles injury it was a small tear and the doctors basically said it would completely tear at some point but they couldn't say how long.
So you get healthy and plan for it but it would never heal.
Ticking time bomb.
The closest example would be Cousins. Granted he is clearly still not back to 100%, but a lot of his issues in the post season have seemed to be more related to conditioning. He played 30 games for the Warriors this year, and was pretty damn effective for them. On a per 36 basis his numbers were right in line with his career averages. You would expect the further removed he gets from the injury the better he will be.
Another recent example is Rudy Gay. He injured his Achilles during the 16-17 season, and has played 2 seasons for San Antonio since and has been very effective for them. Granted, his role is different for them than it has been in previous places he has played so his scoring is down, but again on a per 36 basis his numbers are as good or better than his career averages.
So yes this is a huge setback for Durant, and absolutely the worst case scenario for him, but there are signs that he can make a close to full recovery from this injury.
The closest example would be Cousins. Granted he is clearly still not back to 100%, but a lot of his issues in the post season have seemed to be more related to conditioning. He played 30 games for the Warriors this year, and was pretty damn effective for them. On a per 36 basis his numbers were right in line with his career averages. You would expect the further removed he gets from the injury the better he will be.
Another recent example is Rudy Gay. He injured his Achilles during the 16-17 season, and has played 2 seasons for San Antonio since and has been very effective for them. Granted, his role is different for them than it has been in previous places he has played so his scoring is down, but again on a per 36 basis his numbers are as good or better than his career averages.
So yes this is a huge setback for Durant, and absolutely the worst case scenario for him, but there are signs that he can make a close to full recovery from this injury.
These are much better guys to look at for a timetable and how they look after. No clue why people are using Wilkins like 25-30 years ago as an example.
The closest example would be Cousins. Granted he is clearly still not back to 100%, but a lot of his issues in the post season have seemed to be more related to conditioning. He played 30 games for the Warriors this year, and was pretty damn effective for them. On a per 36 basis his numbers were right in line with his career averages. You would expect the further removed he gets from the injury the better he will be.
Another recent example is Rudy Gay. He injured his Achilles during the 16-17 season, and has played 2 seasons for San Antonio since and has been very effective for them. Granted, his role is different for them than it has been in previous places he has played so his scoring is down, but again on a per 36 basis his numbers are as good or better than his career averages.
So yes this is a huge setback for Durant, and absolutely the worst case scenario for him, but there are signs that he can make a close to full recovery from this injury.
The problem with this argument is that teams would be paying KD to be a star difference maker, not a role player. The two guys (Gay and Cousins) are role players.
The big difference between being a star and just another guy is the quick twitch ability to get to the basket or beat a guy off the shot. Tearing the achilles takes away a lot of that quickness- which diminishes a superstar player like KD to just another good player.
Think of it this way. Before the injury, would you have preferred KD or Tobias Harris? of course you would have chosen KD.
However, after the injury, the gap between Harris and KD has been reduced. Add in that KD is 31- and will be 32 before he even plays again. I am not saying KD falls to Harris' leve- but the gap is no longer large.
The lure of what KD could have brought is now gone. Time to let go and move on.
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Get him this year....Davis next year.
And the young guys develop inuo studs
AD will be traded this year-and only to a team that signs him long term.If they want him,they have to trade for him this season!
Really getting aggressive with the exclamation points, huh?
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I know the track record of guys coming back from this injury in the past hasn't been great, but it does seem that there have been some advancements in recent years that have made it a bit easier for the more recent guys.
The closest example would be Cousins. Granted he is clearly still not back to 100%, but a lot of his issues in the post season have seemed to be more related to conditioning. He played 30 games for the Warriors this year, and was pretty damn effective for them. On a per 36 basis his numbers were right in line with his career averages. You would expect the further removed he gets from the injury the better he will be.
Another recent example is Rudy Gay. He injured his Achilles during the 16-17 season, and has played 2 seasons for San Antonio since and has been very effective for them. Granted, his role is different for them than it has been in previous places he has played so his scoring is down, but again on a per 36 basis his numbers are as good or better than his career averages.
So yes this is a huge setback for Durant, and absolutely the worst case scenario for him, but there are signs that he can make a close to full recovery from this injury.
These are much better guys to look at for a timetable and how they look after. No clue why people are using Wilkins like 25-30 years ago as an example.
Please.
There has been no magic cure for an achilles tear. Let's not pretend that KD is going to come back as a superstar because we are trying to cope with bad news.
An achilles tear is a MAJOR issue for a basketball player- especially one who is already 31 and will be 32 before he ever plays again.
There is no good news here. I would suggest we stop pretending there is.
Keep and develop their young players
Draft Barrett