From my seat, this team is starting to really build depth and talent on the cheap, through the draft.
Two drafts in the books and I think it's safe to say the below are strong starters, with nice upside.
Barkley - obviously
Hernandez - Pro Bowl potential
Zo Carter - strong starter
BJ Hill - strong starter
Daniel Jones - Not this year, but obviously a starter
Lawrence - starter
Deandre Baker - starter, pro bowl ceiling
Then, there are a host of guys that have a legitimate chance at starting.
RJ Macintosh
Sam Beal
Love
Conrad
Slayton
Xman
If even half of the below names pan out, that is an absolute haul for Getty in two years. That is the way you build a team over time. Young, cheap, healthy and deep.
Can we at least see Carter in a starting role before we consider him a "strong starter" though? Obviously too early to tell with the 2019 crop, but if we can get 3-4 solid starters, that draft class is a win.
Can we at least see Carter in a starting role before we consider him a "strong starter" though? Obviously too early to tell with the 2019 crop, but if we can get 3-4 solid starters, that draft class is a win.
Fair points.
TE C.J. Conrad, ILB Tae Davis, S Sean Chandler, G/C Evan Brown, C James O'Hagan, OT Paul Adams, LB Josiah Tauaefa, LB/S Jake Carlock, G Nick Gates, RT Asafo-Adjei, LB/S Mark McLaurin, Reggie White Jr., Alex Wesley, and Eric Dungey could develop into contributors. Obviously many of them won't make the 53 man roster but there is talent in this group. As of now I think all of us would be surprised if Conrad doesn't make the team.
Can we at least see Carter in a starting role before we consider him a "strong starter" though? Obviously too early to tell with the 2019 crop, but if we can get 3-4 solid starters, that draft class is a win.
Jerry Reese drafted near the top of each round as well. Flowers and Apple were top 10 picks.
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But let's be honest, picking at top of each round has its benefits.
Can we at least see Carter in a starting role before we consider him a "strong starter" though? Obviously too early to tell with the 2019 crop, but if we can get 3-4 solid starters, that draft class is a win.
Jerry Reese drafted near the top of each round as well. Flowers and Apple were top 10 picks.
Eric, understood, but in DG's first two years, he had the 2nd overall and 6th overall, whereas Reese never picked higher than 9.
TE C.J. Conrad, ILB Tae Davis, S Sean Chandler, G/C Evan Brown, C James O'Hagan, OT Paul Adams, LB Josiah Tauaefa, LB/S Jake Carlock, G Nick Gates, RT Asafo-Adjei, LB/S Mark McLaurin, Reggie White Jr., Alex Wesley, and Eric Dungey could develop into contributors. Obviously many of them won't make the 53 man roster but there is talent in this group. As of now I think all of us would be surprised if Conrad doesn't make the team.
Haley is a great story, and I'm pulling for him, but I think there is a decent chance, barring injury, he doesn't even make the team.
He's got Jenkins, Baker, Beal, and Love all easily ahead of him for a multitude of reasons.
Then Ballantine will be given every chance to win the job over Haley IMO.
How many corners will they keep?
So then Haley is battling Hamilton and Lippett for the 6th corner if they keep 6 (barring injury of course - sometimes these things have a way of working themselves out).
Last year they had 9 DB's - safeties and CB's.
Not making excuses for him, but when you are coming in as a new GM it is nice to be picking #2 and then the following year number 6.
Reese caused the mess where he went from picking in the middle of the first, to 10, to 9. He was trending in the wrong direction.
theres plenty of teams that consistently pick in that range and never get better because they pick wrong.
Gettlemen is doing a good job so far(knock on wood)
But it's undeniable Gettleman's drafts have benifited from 1) Reese's Giants bad final year 2) Gettleman's Giants bad inaugural year 3) Gettleman trading virtually every good player on the team.
In 2018 the Giants had 4 top 70 picks, in 2019 3 top 30 picks.
Hopefully these "opportunities" to draft so high are soon over -- the Giants draft position is a symptom of sucking.
I like our drafts and the job that DG has done, but I've seen too many guys look great in OTA's and then bust.
Unless somehow the Giants contend this year, no matter how many starters he adds, if the Giants don't contend, and it's even partially due to QB, Gettleman will be considered a failure.
I like our drafts and the job that DG has done, but I've seen too many guys look great in OTA's and then bust.
Exactly, even a very high hit rate will mean a few of these guys will flame out.
The general consensus of many fans this offseason is everything, by virtue of the Giants choosing it, will work out. That's a good recipe for disappointment.
Haley is a great story, and I'm pulling for him, but I think there is a decent chance, barring injury, he doesn't even make the team.
He's got Jenkins, Baker, Beal, and Love all easily ahead of him for a multitude of reasons.
Then Ballantine will be given every chance to win the job over Haley IMO.
How many corners will they keep?
So then Haley is battling Hamilton and Lippett for the 6th corner if they keep 6 (barring injury of course - sometimes these things have a way of working themselves out).
Last year they had 9 DB's - safeties and CB's.
I think they will keep 6. There has been a lot of speculation that the Giants will play Love at safety in some situations. With the likelihood that this is Jenkins last season with the Giants I think they will want to keep Baker, Love, Beal, Ballentine, and Haley for 2020. It wouldn't surprise me if Ballentine or Haley are stashed on IR with a minor injury in camp. Neither are likely to make it to the practice squad so that could be the way to keep both and have the option to bring them back later in the season if the need arises.
Unless somehow the Giants contend this year, no matter how many starters he adds, if the Giants don't contend, and it's even partially due to QB, Gettleman will be considered a failure.
This, I think Gettleman has done a solid job so far but if he misses on Jones then that's what he will be remembered for.
For example - Jacksonville - which has had one winning season since 2008.
In 2012 they took Justin Blackmon at #5.
In 2013 they took Luke Joeckel at #2.
In 2014 they took Blake Bortles at #3.
In 2015 they took Dante Fowler at #3.
It wasn't until 2016 - when they took Jalen Ramsey at #5 and Myles Jack at #36 - that they were moving in the right direction.
Although for what it's worth - Jacksonville finished 5-11 in 2018 after their 10-6 2017 season.
I think there are some proven stuff already coming from the 2018 class (except for Lauletta and Macintosh).
But how many BBI-ers said that all of the players (or any of the players) from Jerry Reese's draft classes sucked at the end of their first mini-camp? Even Flowers or Apple?
I try not to judge a player until after year 2. Even Barkley for example, his career trajectory could go from good to all-timer. Neither of those would surprise me.
You certainly don't know til you know, and a year isn't quite enough to "know" for me.
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Until you know.
I try not to judge a player until after year 2. Even Barkley for example, his career trajectory could go from good to all-timer. Neither of those would surprise me.
You certainly don't know til you know, and a year isn't quite enough to "know" for me.
Barkley's career trajectory is way better than "good" if he stays healthy.
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In comment 14469390 Bill L said:
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Until you know.
I try not to judge a player until after year 2. Even Barkley for example, his career trajectory could go from good to all-timer. Neither of those would surprise me.
You certainly don't know til you know, and a year isn't quite enough to "know" for me.
Barkley's career trajectory is way better than "good" if he stays healthy.
He was way better than good as a rookie but this is someone who's not sure Zeigler is really better than Jamon Brown.
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In comment 14469390 Bill L said:
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Until you know.
I try not to judge a player until after year 2. Even Barkley for example, his career trajectory could go from good to all-timer. Neither of those would surprise me.
You certainly don't know til you know, and a year isn't quite enough to "know" for me.
Barkley's career trajectory is way better than "good" if he stays healthy.
Sure, seems that way. I'm saying his floor is good and his ceiling is all-timer.
I'm saying 1 season is hope, 2 seasons is a trend.
Do remember BBI had anointed Shockey and Beckham after year one as well. Things can change.
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In comment 14469403 christian said:
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In comment 14469390 Bill L said:
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Until you know.
I try not to judge a player until after year 2. Even Barkley for example, his career trajectory could go from good to all-timer. Neither of those would surprise me.
You certainly don't know til you know, and a year isn't quite enough to "know" for me.
Barkley's career trajectory is way better than "good" if he stays healthy.
He was way better than good as a rookie but this is someone who's not sure Zeigler is really better than Jamon Brown.
That's a wild misrepresentation of what I said and you know that. I asked if you if Zeitler was a markedly better run blocker than Zeitler, a question of which you had literally no response.
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In comment 14469403 christian said:
That's a wild misrepresentation of what I said and you know that. I asked if you if Zeitler was a markedly better run blocker than Zeitler, a question of which you had literally no response.
No it isn't. That you said you didn't know whether Ziegler is a better blocker than Brown is to say that you don't really know if Zeigler is better that Brown. And I did respond when I said that Zeigler and Brown don't belong in the same sentence when it comes to their respective talent.
Work outs in shorts. Barkley, BJ Hill, Zo, and Hernandez already showed great stuff over 16 games.
I said in the OP that if even a half of the other names I mentioned started, that is a nice two year haul.
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In comment 14469403 christian said:
Barkley's career trajectory is way better than "good" if he stays healthy.
Sure, seems that way. I'm saying his floor is good and his ceiling is all-timer.
I'm saying 1 season is hope, 2 seasons is a trend.
Do remember BBI had anointed Shockey and Beckham after year one as well. Things can change.
Those two are head cases in a way that Barkley isn't.
Very high ceiling, I'm hoping he's our Justin Smith.
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could be the darkhorse this year to wow us all.
You don't play really well against Q Nelson by accident in a big game, a mere 1 year before the guard went Pro Bowl year one. No accident. He played real well that night. High ceiling. If he pans out, that draft was a home run
Very high ceiling, I'm hoping he's our Justin Smith.
And I'm very upbeat about our drafts outside of Ximenes in the 3rd which I know nothing about. His highlights don't really impress me, but apparently he was pivotal in beating VA Tech. We are finally drafting football players again and not measurables. Measurables should be used to see if the guy has the bare minimum athletic ability to play. Love is a guy that dropped that I absolutely love because even if he can't play corner I think he has a 10 year career at FS. Off the ball instincts are tremendous.
Can we at least see Carter in a starting role before we consider him a "strong starter" though? Obviously too early to tell with the 2019 crop, but if we can get 3-4 solid starters, that draft class is a win.
Browns and Jags picked high for how long? Look at all those playoff wins. You need to pick the right talent and have the right coaches still.
mcintosh - ( New Window )
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But let's be honest, picking at top of each round has its benefits.
Can we at least see Carter in a starting role before we consider him a "strong starter" though? Obviously too early to tell with the 2019 crop, but if we can get 3-4 solid starters, that draft class is a win.
Jerry Reese drafted near the top of each round as well. Flowers and Apple were top 10 picks.
Right. And the only difference right now between Gettleman and Reese is we KNOW Reese's picks (Flowers and Apple) did not pan out. We still know essentially nothing about Gettleman's drafts (aside from Barkley, who was a #2 overall pick). Don't get me wrong, I'm hopeful we're on the right track, but I have no idea why Gettleman is already getting credit for anything and already being heralded as the franchise's savior from the infamous Jerry Reese. Reese has 2 SB rings as Giants GM. Gettleman is 5-11 as the Giants GM. Anything said about his first 2 drafts is still 95% speculation/guessing.
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In comment 14469239 figgy2989 said:
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But let's be honest, picking at top of each round has its benefits.
Can we at least see Carter in a starting role before we consider him a "strong starter" though? Obviously too early to tell with the 2019 crop, but if we can get 3-4 solid starters, that draft class is a win.
Jerry Reese drafted near the top of each round as well. Flowers and Apple were top 10 picks.
Right. And the only difference right now between Gettleman and Reese is we KNOW Reese's picks (Flowers and Apple) did not pan out. We still know essentially nothing about Gettleman's drafts (aside from Barkley, who was a #2 overall pick). Don't get me wrong, I'm hopeful we're on the right track, but I have no idea why Gettleman is already getting credit for anything and already being heralded as the franchise's savior from the infamous Jerry Reese. Reese has 2 SB rings as Giants GM. Gettleman is 5-11 as the Giants GM. Anything said about his first 2 drafts is still 95% speculation/guessing.
+1 Absolutely Right! A lot of assumptions by the OP with the only proven commodities at this point being SB and WH, other than that wishful thinking.
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He was probably the biggest surprise last season on defense and he is still working with the starters in practice. IMO it's a matter of time before Love takes his spot but only because Love is more versatile. Either way Haley will still see his fair share of time on defense.
TE C.J. Conrad, ILB Tae Davis, S Sean Chandler, G/C Evan Brown, C James O'Hagan, OT Paul Adams, LB Josiah Tauaefa, LB/S Jake Carlock, G Nick Gates, RT Asafo-Adjei, LB/S Mark McLaurin, Reggie White Jr., Alex Wesley, and Eric Dungey could develop into contributors. Obviously many of them won't make the 53 man roster but there is talent in this group. As of now I think all of us would be surprised if Conrad doesn't make the team.
Haley is a great story, and I'm pulling for him, but I think there is a decent chance, barring injury, he doesn't even make the team.
He's got Jenkins, Baker, Beal, and Love all easily ahead of him for a multitude of reasons.
Then Ballantine will be given every chance to win the job over Haley IMO.
How many corners will they keep?
So then Haley is battling Hamilton and Lippett for the 6th corner if they keep 6 (barring injury of course - sometimes these things have a way of working themselves out).
Last year they had 9 DB's - safeties and CB's.
If they are all healthy (no IR candidates) Jenkin plus 5 newbies:
Baker
Beal
Haley
Love
Ballentine
Jenkins
Will all make the 2019 53. Bye Bye the aftermaths of rebuilding the roster from other teams' castoffs like Lippet.
So someone is getting cut from Michael Thomas and Sean Chandler
Plus Lippett, Hamilton, etc.
certainly possible.
Take Will Hernandez, for example. He started every game at LG in his rookie year. The year before the Giants had three guys at LG at various times in the 2017 season - Pugh, Jerry, and Jones. None were on the team when Hernandez arrived.
Who was going to keep B.J. Hill from starting, Mario Edwards? Kerry Wynn? Nope.
Is any veteran D-Linemen still on the team going to keep Lawrence off the 1st Team? Or any CB not named Janoris Jenkins going to do the same to Baker? I doubt it.
It's a lot easier for a young player to start when his competition is so weak.
Take Will Hernandez, for example. He started every game at LG in his rookie year. The year before the Giants had three guys at LG at various times in the 2017 season - Pugh, Jerry, and Jones. None were on the team when Hernandez arrived.
Who was going to keep B.J. Hill from starting, Mario Edwards? Kerry Wynn? Nope.
Is any veteran D-Linemen still on the team going to keep Lawrence off the 1st Team? Or any CB not named Janoris Jenkins going to do the same to Baker? I doubt it.
It's a lot easier for a young player to start when his competition is so weak.
Kerry Wynn got a lot of nice pub for his play in training camp and then the season in 2018.
But he was frankly always one of my bell-weather indicators of whether or not the personnel on this team was decent, by NFL standards. He was a JAG through and through.
Now he's gone.
Finally.
I can see that. Let's hope it comes to that, or a tough decision to get to 9, and injuries don't force their hand at all
Take Will Hernandez, for example. He started every game at LG in his rookie year. The year before the Giants had three guys at LG at various times in the 2017 season - Pugh, Jerry, and Jones. None were on the team when Hernandez arrived.
Who was going to keep B.J. Hill from starting, Mario Edwards? Kerry Wynn? Nope.
Is any veteran D-Linemen still on the team going to keep Lawrence off the 1st Team? Or any CB not named Janoris Jenkins going to do the same to Baker? I doubt it.
It's a lot easier for a young player to start when his competition is so weak.
But when these "weak" players released by the Giants succeed on other teams, posters criticize the Giants for not recognizing talent.
Barkley, Hernandez, Hill, and Carter. Throw in Beal potentially and that could be 5.
Then, add in solid depth UDFA's like Haley and Chandler (people forget he was a ST stud last year). Maybe even a rotational guy like McIntosh in Rd 5.
That has the makings of a great rookie class.
As for this year, if Jones pans out and Baker and Lawrence are strong starters, that is the makings of one of the best young cores in the entire NFL. And that's before we mention Love, Ximines, Slayton, Connelly, Conrad, and all of the other rookies.
But it's undeniable Gettleman's drafts have benifited from 1) Reese's Giants bad final year 2) Gettleman's Giants bad inaugural year 3) Gettleman trading virtually every good player on the team.
In 2018 the Giants had 4 top 70 picks, in 2019 3 top 30 picks.
Hopefully these "opportunities" to draft so high are soon over -- the Giants draft position is a symptom of sucking.
You only benefit if you hit past rounds 3-4 at least The Reese apologists did all kinds of mental gymnastics every year. In 11 years the guy rarely hit outside of round 1. After round 2 other tkghavn GM is first draft it was insanely bad. Almost every GM. could find a few guys later once in a while. Maybe it was Ross but he kept that guy.
Bottom line they should have fired him mark W TC.
Kept that inept dick.
Take Will Hernandez, for example. He started every game at LG in his rookie year. The year before the Giants had three guys at LG at various times in the 2017 season - Pugh, Jerry, and Jones. None were on the team when Hernandez arrived.
Who was going to keep B.J. Hill from starting, Mario Edwards? Kerry Wynn? Nope.
Is any veteran D-Linemen still on the team going to keep Lawrence off the 1st Team? Or any CB not named Janoris Jenkins going to do the same to Baker? I doubt it.
It's a lot easier for a young player to start when his competition is so weak.
And, oh by the way, Mario Edwards turned into a 5th Round compensatory pick which turned out to be...
Darius Slayton
Greg from LI : 6/11/2019 1:19 pm : link : reply
I've never seen people so impressed with workouts in shorts.
He had drafts that were complete head scratchers. Even high picks like Flowers and Apple were under scrutiny from Day 1 as being reaches and there was never a lot of optimism about either.
You don't have to be impressed with this year's draftees yet. But Barkley, Hernandez and Hill from last season alone surpassed the success rate of a couple of Reese's ENTIRE drafts. That's where the optimism is coming in.
Then this year, we look so far like we have several players that will contribute. I remember the last time there was this much optimism over a draft class - 2007.
Ross
Smith
Alford
DeOssie
Boss
Bradashaw
All key contributors
Michael Johnson
Adam Koets
Less successful
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It's that the veterans those players have competed against are either gone or just plain lousy.
Take Will Hernandez, for example. He started every game at LG in his rookie year. The year before the Giants had three guys at LG at various times in the 2017 season - Pugh, Jerry, and Jones. None were on the team when Hernandez arrived.
Who was going to keep B.J. Hill from starting, Mario Edwards? Kerry Wynn? Nope.
Is any veteran D-Linemen still on the team going to keep Lawrence off the 1st Team? Or any CB not named Janoris Jenkins going to do the same to Baker? I doubt it.
It's a lot easier for a young player to start when his competition is so weak.
But when these "weak" players released by the Giants succeed on other teams, posters criticize the Giants for not recognizing talent.
Ex-Giants having success on other teams is a fairly recent development, and much of that success has been due to their ability to stay much healthier for their new teams than they ever could for the Giants (see Prince Amukamara and Devon Kennard).
Linval Joseph, Cornelius Griffin and Ryan Grant are about the only ones recently to have All Pro seasons after leaving that I can think of, and Griffin wasn't that recent.
Kennard will likely regress to the mean this season. And even then, he was decent last year, but not incredible.
And, oh by the way, Mario Edwards turned into a 5th Round compensatory pick which turned out to be...
Darius Slayton
That's beside the point, which was that Edwards wasn't going to keep Hill on the bench.
Shiancoe made the Pro Bowl a few times for the Vikings, I think.
Linval Joseph, Cornelius Griffin and Ryan Grant are about the only ones recently to have All Pro seasons after leaving that I can think of, and Griffin wasn't that recent.
Kennard will likely regress to the mean this season. And even then, he was decent last year, but not incredible.
Kennard is actually a pretty decent LB, but tough to keep a guy around that is only decent when he is injured as much as Kennard is.
And, oh by the way, Mario Edwards turned into a 5th Round compensatory pick which turned out to be...
Darius Slayton
That's not accurate. Mario Edwards counts towards next years compensatory formula not this years.
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And, oh by the way, Mario Edwards turned into a 5th Round compensatory pick which turned out to be...
Darius Slayton
That's not accurate. Mario Edwards counts towards next years compensatory formula not this years.
My mistake. Thanks for correcting me.
Would anyone be shocked if Beal was the 3rd corner? Etc.
I see us playing a lot of youth and getting a feel for our upside.