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"Loud and clear a very, very big-time important message was delivered by Pat Shurmur before everyone goes away for the summer -- this is now a quarterback competition," Rapoport said on NFL Network. "For the first time, Pat Shurmur went out in public and used the words right now (Manning is the starter). Anytime a coach says right now, that means it's on. Even later, getting all the questions you would expect him to get, he essentially said have it. He has now opened up his training camp to be a full-fledged quarterback competition. "Either it is a competition or it's not. If it's not, you simply say Eli is the starter and Daniel Jones is going to sit and we'll address it when it becomes an issue. Or you do what Pat Shurmur said, which is, we'll play the best player, both the guys look good, and we'll see what happens. That makes it one of the more intriguing training camps and obviously shows the Giants love what they've seen from Daniel Jones." |
There's also no way that you will be able to tell if Jones outplays Eli during camp or even in pre-season games. QBing is a heck of a lot more than wearing a red shirt and throwing to *and against* teammates or against 1-4 stringers playing vanilla defense. What Eli has right now, Jones cannot match right now. And nobody will even be able to see if that statement is true or false until September.
Neither Shurmer nor Gettleman like the media or respect it particularly much. I think it's just as likely or maybe even more likely that they are screwing with them in their responses.
If they were true clones with regards to skill set then I’d buy this more, but the fact that Jones brings a mobility factor which Shurmur values greatly in quarterbacks, and which opens up options in playcalling(which could benefit Barkley and Giants red zone efficiency )..I think evens it up a bit more. If Jones didn’t bring a missing element to the offense it might be tilted more heavily in Eli’s favor.
Jones does bring a dimension which Eli simply lacks, and which Shurmur values greatly in modern quarterback play. I think that factors in to the decision making going forward as much as it factored into the selection of Jones at 6.
His brother had neck surgery and stenosis which is degenerative, if you pass block for Eli he can be effective!
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In comment 14470161 Bill L said:
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There's also no way that you will be able to tell if Jones outplays Eli during camp or even in pre-season games. QBing is a heck of a lot more than wearing a red shirt and throwing to *and against* teammates or against 1-4 stringers playing vanilla defense. What Eli has right now, Jones cannot match right now. And nobody will even be able to see if that statement is true or false until September.
This is just simply not true. Go ask the Seahawks if they knew Russ outplayed their high priced FA QB Matt Flynn or ask the Browns if they knew Baker outplayed Tyrod. I'm sure there are numerous other examples.
Your animus drives your every post and has for quite some time. But to answer directly, you cannot minimize the importance of reading defenses and decision-making. NFL QB's do more than just play catch. And much if not all of that comes with experience, either direct or observational.
Animus? No clue what you are talking about. I love Eli, but I'm also not bias towards him like you seem to be. I root for the Giants. I want them to win. I'm not sure Eli gives them the best shot to win.
You're making blanket statements that there is no way to tell if a QB is outplaying another QB. Which is just simply wrong and I provided multiple examples of that.
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I don't want another season of checkdowns and missed opportunities because our quarterbacks arm is dead. his brother's arm was garbage his last few years as well but he had more of a defense to cover it up.
His brother had neck surgery and stenosis which is degenerative, if you pass block for Eli he can be effective!
That's the problem. Effective. When your QB has a 23 million dollar cap hit he better be a lot more then effective.
Eli wants to play as long as he can, but he knows he can't play forever. Daniel Jones knows that he was drafted #6 and is getting the big bucks to be the starter. Jones knows that this opportunity will end if he fails to look good and keep improving.
Everybody knew this stuff when Jones was drafted. Unfortunately there is nothing newsworthy to write about until training camp. So writers are selling sizzle until the steak arrives.
The problem for Shurmur is that while fostering competition is good, he has to maintain a good working relationship with his players or they will focus on him instead of focusing on their jobs.
Shurmur doesn't want to insult a veteran player. Drafting Jones at #6 was enough of an insult/challenge to Eli. Shurmur could spoil his relationship with Eli by even suggesting to the media that Eli is on his way out. While that may be the Giants' hope, it is not a fait accompli and saying it out loud would be an unforgivable act of disrespect.
On the other hand, Shurmur does not want to ruin Jones' confidence in his own abilities. He wants Jones to progress at the proper pace. So he doesn't want to suggest that Jones is not progressing at an acceptable speed, or is nowhere near as good as Eli, or that Jones has no chance of replacing Eli this year, even if those things were true.
We all know this. Shurmur knows this.
Shurmur gets millions of dollars to make the Giants a winning team. It isn't easy to draft replacements, foster competition and not make enemies of the players or the media. If it were easy, we'd be doing it.
My recommendation: When reading a football column or watching talking heads on ESPN, pretend that at the end of the article or show, it reads or they say, "What you've just read or heard might not be true, But It's Possible!"
If the goal is to get Jones on the fast track...this is what you do. He needs to be ready in case the season and Eli start badly.
If you also remember Gettelman is the person who stated the Giants were going to use the "KC Model".
I think Shurmur is saying to Gettelman, "I didn't say I was starting Eli over Jones, you did! And I'm sure as hell am not wasting valuable playing time, if Eli has a similar year to last year".
Yes Eli will start the season, but I think Shurmur's leash is a lot shorter than Gettelman's.
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“Eli is the starter and this guy is getting ready to play.“
Now if you can spin this into there is an open compensation then you to are a “journalist””
No, that's not what was said. You're also trying to twist this to your own narrative by making shit up.
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Q: Is there a scenario where Daniel can win this starting job in training camp?
A: I think we are going to play the very best player and I know we are dancing around the words there. Right now, Eli is getting ready to have a great year and Daniel is getting ready to play. You see what happens with it. We feel good about where Eli is. He is our starting quarterback and we have a young player that we think is going to be an outstanding player, getting himself ready to play. And you know, you just see what happens with it.
If Shurmer wanted to shut this down he would have said something very different
Lake George -- the written transcript doesn't say it, but as I recall it, in the actual presser, that's what Shurmur said
as for me what we are hearing is a good thing -- if the Giants are liking what they are seeing out of Jones -- that is nothing but a positive -- and as uncontroversial as it gets
it's another example of the press getting it wrong -- they got it wrong when he was picked, they got it wrong in their criticism of the pick and slamming Jones, and now to cover their embarrassment - they are working to turn it into a controversy
What's controversial about the #6 pick doing well?
What's controversial about the Giants having a good plan that gives the team stability?
absolutely nothing
they are all still butt hurt from drinking the kool aid two years ago
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In comment 14470091 Scuzzlebutt said:
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In comment 14470080 Jimmy Googs said:
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cut when camp starts...
We have a new contender for dumbest post of the day.
I'm sure that was sarcasm.
All these articles claiming Jones could be the starter is just stirring up shit.
I don't think they are just stirring up shit. The people "stirring up shit" are the HC and OC. They've spoke numerous times to the media and neither one has given a definitive answer that Eli is the starter.
You are lying. Go straight to the source - Shurmur's transcript:
A: Eli is the starter and this guy is getting ready to play.
Actually Shurmur said exactly that, and the muck rackers refused to acknowledge it.
I'll lay 2:1 odds Eli starts vs. Dallas game 1. Anyone fool enough to take that?
2-1 isn't exactly strong odds if you're feeling bullish about Eli being the starter.
I dont care. I want to watch us WIN!!
ENOUGH. Lets win, with Eli or Daniel. If we suck after 4 games, you move on from Eli. Thats it. No more wasting years so people dont cry. LETS GO!!!
5-11
3-13
11-5
6-10
6-10
7-9
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"Either it is a competition or it's not. If it's not, you simply say Eli is the starter"
Actually Shurmur said exactly that, and the muck rackers refused to acknowledge it.
I'll lay 2:1 odds Eli starts vs. Dallas game 1. Anyone fool enough to take that?
2-1 isn't exactly strong odds if you're feeling bullish about Eli being the starter.
Yeh I see that expression used incorrectly a lot. If a book lays 2-1 odds it means they are offering a 2-1 payout. So Eli wouldn't actually be the favored to start in his statement. Eli in actuality is probably like 1/10 and that probably would cover just for injury. There is almost no way a healthy Eli doesn't start the season.
In May odds games DJ starts averaged out to 4. I have a feeling that number is going to get to 8 or whenever our bye week is by season's end.
What happen to the KC model?
A QB competition is the worse possible outcome
either Eli wins and Jones distractors say he wasn't worth the 6th pick and maybe he is damaged long term
or Jones wins and everyone wonders why did we pay Eli so much money to be on roster if he is done
Precisely.
What happen to the KC model?
A QB competition is the worse possible outcome
either Eli wins and Jones distractors say he wasn't worth the 6th pick and maybe he is damaged long term
or Jones wins and everyone wonders why did we pay Eli so much money to be on roster if he is done
That's a weird way to look at it.
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In comment 14470093 Gman11 said:
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In comment 14470091 Scuzzlebutt said:
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In comment 14470080 Jimmy Googs said:
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cut when camp starts...
We have a new contender for dumbest post of the day.
I'm sure that was sarcasm.
All these articles claiming Jones could be the starter is just stirring up shit.
I don't think they are just stirring up shit. The people "stirring up shit" are the HC and OC. They've spoke numerous times to the media and neither one has given a definitive answer that Eli is the starter.
You are lying. Go straight to the source - Shurmur's transcript:
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Q: So, Eli is the starter?
A: Eli is the starter and this guy is getting ready to play.
He never just answers that Eli is the starter. Has to throw something out after that everytime. If Eli is your starter you say "Eli is our starter" That's it. You don't need to say and the other guy is getting ready to play. He had numerous chances to definitively name Eli the starter for Week 1 throughout OTAs & Mini Camp and never did.
If he does, then OMG he must be spending all of his working hours creating Haskins Canton bust. Since we took the lesser QB and all.
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I don't want another season of checkdowns and missed opportunities because our quarterbacks arm is dead. his brother's arm was garbage his last few years as well but he had more of a defense to cover it up.
Dumbest post of the day... Congratulations!
Yes it is
Now it's will Daniel Jones start in place of Eli Manning.
Talk about rapid progress.
The transition from Manning to Jones is inevitable. Exactly when it happens is debatable. But lost among all of the dissection and analysis of the HC's statements is a post by ron mexico, where he said something like, "Wake me when Jones is practicing with the 1st Team," or words to that effect. He's absolutely right. The HC's actions will speak louder than any of his words, and right now he's saying that Eli is the starter for the foreseeable future, and any "competition" will be to see who his principal backup is.
That could change. Change is inevitable, too, but as long as it's not forced (or the transition is botched in any way), I'm content to sit back and see how it all plays out over the course of the 2019 season.
I also think if Shurmur didn’t mean that Eli would be competing for a starting spot in training camp when he said “we are going to play the very best player” and “you just see what happens with it” then he’s an idiot.
All of this would be so easy to digest if they just cut Eli at this point. It makes no sense for him to be on this team, for all parties!
I agree with Francesa's point 1 month ago about Eli being someone who doesn't get signed to a team right away, but "steps in" at the right time and the right place.
Just ******* do it already!
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In comment 14470096 Big Rick in FL said:
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In comment 14470093 Gman11 said:
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In comment 14470091 Scuzzlebutt said:
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In comment 14470080 Jimmy Googs said:
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cut when camp starts...
We have a new contender for dumbest post of the day.
I'm sure that was sarcasm.
All these articles claiming Jones could be the starter is just stirring up shit.
I don't think they are just stirring up shit. The people "stirring up shit" are the HC and OC. They've spoke numerous times to the media and neither one has given a definitive answer that Eli is the starter.
You are lying. Go straight to the source - Shurmur's transcript:
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Q: So, Eli is the starter?
A: Eli is the starter and this guy is getting ready to play.
He never just answers that Eli is the starter. Has to throw something out after that everytime. If Eli is your starter you say "Eli is our starter" That's it. You don't need to say and the other guy is getting ready to play. He had numerous chances to definitively name Eli the starter for Week 1 throughout OTAs & Mini Camp and never did.
He states it as clear as possible. The "this guy" addendum was only for the beats who repeatedly asked what he meant. Pat repeated a statement 3x in his presser, "I’ll say it, I guess, for the third time: Eli is getting ready to have an outstanding year and Daniel is getting ready to play." But the beats who have a preconceived agenda just couldn't accept or comprehend what he was saying.
Like a lot said, it changes when he puts the pads on and has defenders in his face, but at the very least he's doing everything he can right now and more to look like the future.
I'd think it very unlikely, barring an injury, that Eli is on the bench at any point in the early quarter to half of the season. It seems that the Giants would need to be really bad to have a shot at DJ starting before week 8 or 9.
Tanney is #3
Lauletta should just be cut now.
Another scenario is Jones demonstrates that he is the better QB (a competition). That begs the question of how Jones get n opportunity to demonstrate that.
That was an interesting presser and shouldn't be written off at all.
The fact that PS says Jones is getting ready to play means Tanney is pretty much gone. Now the question becomes who is the 3rd QB (the rookie from Cuse or Lauletta and his weak arm and weird behavior last year)?
Now, if in camp Eli is just not getting it done then Jones will play far sooner. Why anyone has problem with that is beyond me. Eli is the starter but far from entrenched based on the last few years.
Some of you also don't remember that the Giants scored 37 points in 4 games after Eli, the consensus #1, was named the starter. How will Jones, not exactly a consensus pick fare if he comes out and shits the bed like that? What do you do then? Put Eli back in? Continue to let Jones fail? Some of you have been seduced by the song of the house organs playing "it's all going to be rainbows and unicorns."
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Right now Eli is the starter and Jones is being groomed to be the Backup (dressed) from day 1. Now, Eli was that guy in 2004 and by mid season was the starter. I suspect, this could go the same way.
The fact that PS says Jones is getting ready to play means Tanney is pretty much gone. Now the question becomes who is the 3rd QB (the rookie from Cuse or Lauletta and his weak arm and weird behavior last year)?
Now, if in camp Eli is just not getting it done then Jones will play far sooner. Why anyone has problem with that is beyond me. Eli is the starter but far from entrenched based on the last few years.
This is not 2004. A) Warner was brought in from the outside knowing that he was going to be replaced. He wasn't a team icon and B) the Major was the HC, not Mr.I hope to hit the magical .500 mark in my 4th season as a HC with two different teams.
Some of you also don't remember that the Giants scored 37 points in 4 games after Eli, the consensus #1, was named the starter. How will Jones, not exactly a consensus pick fare if he comes out and shits the bed like that? What do you do then? Put Eli back in? Continue to let Jones fail? Some of you have been seduced by the song of the house organs playing "it's all going to be rainbows and unicorns."
Yup. You let him figure it out. If he plays like shit you keep playing him. Get all the problems worked out during his rookie year. So you have 4 years of cheap QB play. Players are much more ready for the NFL then they were in 2004. Also his regime has no loyalty to Eli. Jones is their guy. They'll get him on the field sooner than later.
The consensus is the Giants will be bad this year with or without Eli. At some point delaying playing DJ sets the team back. Giants need to find out this year what we have in DJ to set up next year.
Now it's will Daniel Jones start in place of Eli Manning.
Talk about rapid progress.
The transition from Manning to Jones is inevitable. Exactly when it happens is debatable. But lost among all of the dissection and analysis of the HC's statements is a post by ron mexico, where he said something like, "Wake me when Jones is practicing with the 1st Team," or words to that effect. He's absolutely right. The HC's actions will speak louder than any of his words, and right now he's saying that Eli is the starter for the foreseeable future, and any "competition" will be to see who his principal backup is.
That could change. Change is inevitable, too, but as long as it's not forced (or the transition is botched in any way), I'm content to sit back and see how it all plays out over the course of the 2019 season.
+1
And let me add, this is NY not KC. The press here is very different, as are the fans. The brass doesn't want another meltdown like what happened under McAdoo. The change is inevitable, and unlike Smith, Jones has to be a viable future (has to be he was taken at #6!). So the fans and the beats need to be ready that it will happen at some point, and when it does, it's no surprise.
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Right now Eli is the starter and Jones is being groomed to be the Backup (dressed) from day 1. Now, Eli was that guy in 2004 and by mid season was the starter. I suspect, this could go the same way.
The fact that PS says Jones is getting ready to play means Tanney is pretty much gone. Now the question becomes who is the 3rd QB (the rookie from Cuse or Lauletta and his weak arm and weird behavior last year)?
Now, if in camp Eli is just not getting it done then Jones will play far sooner. Why anyone has problem with that is beyond me. Eli is the starter but far from entrenched based on the last few years.
This is not 2004. A) Warner was brought in from the outside knowing that he was going to be replaced. He wasn't a team icon and B) the Major was the HC, not Mr.I hope to hit the magical .500 mark in my 4th season as a HC with two different teams.
Some of you also don't remember that the Giants scored 37 points in 4 games after Eli, the consensus #1, was named the starter. How will Jones, not exactly a consensus pick fare if he comes out and shits the bed like that? What do you do then? Put Eli back in? Continue to let Jones fail? Some of you have been seduced by the song of the house organs playing "it's all going to be rainbows and unicorns."
Once you make the switch, you aren't going back..so you ride it out through the ups and downs, with the upside being that you've provided enough games to give Jones an offseason to feast on the information those games provided him. He will learn and grow from making mistakes, it is part of the process.
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In comment 14470132 jvm52106 said:
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Right now Eli is the starter and Jones is being groomed to be the Backup (dressed) from day 1. Now, Eli was that guy in 2004 and by mid season was the starter. I suspect, this could go the same way.
The fact that PS says Jones is getting ready to play means Tanney is pretty much gone. Now the question becomes who is the 3rd QB (the rookie from Cuse or Lauletta and his weak arm and weird behavior last year)?
Now, if in camp Eli is just not getting it done then Jones will play far sooner. Why anyone has problem with that is beyond me. Eli is the starter but far from entrenched based on the last few years.
This is not 2004. A) Warner was brought in from the outside knowing that he was going to be replaced. He wasn't a team icon and B) the Major was the HC, not Mr.I hope to hit the magical .500 mark in my 4th season as a HC with two different teams.
Some of you also don't remember that the Giants scored 37 points in 4 games after Eli, the consensus #1, was named the starter. How will Jones, not exactly a consensus pick fare if he comes out and shits the bed like that? What do you do then? Put Eli back in? Continue to let Jones fail? Some of you have been seduced by the song of the house organs playing "it's all going to be rainbows and unicorns."
Once you make the switch, you aren't going back..so you ride it out through the ups and downs, with the upside being that you've provided enough games to give Jones an offseason to feast on the information those games provided him. He will learn and grow from making mistakes, it is part of the process.
Which is why they're not going to tank the season, no matter how much people desire that. They will switch when it's clear they cannot compete for a playoff spot.
"Pat Shurmur definitely left the door open for a QB competition in training camp."
Kim Jones take on Giants quarterback situation - ( New Window )