for display only
Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner

Archived Thread

John Halapio made a 5 Rising NFL Players list

Giantsfan79 : 6/17/2019 9:03 am
from Monday Morning Quarterback [not written Peter King]

Quote:
Jon Halapio, C, New York Giants: The Giants are revamping their offensive line in a major way, but one of the unsung components of the rebuild is at center, where Halapio could emerge as a foundation piece to the new-look front. He began last year as New York’s starter before going down with an injury after just 116 snaps of action. But in those snaps, he didn’t allow a single pressure, despite almost 50 pass-blocking snaps against the Jaguars and their array of pass-rushing weapons. With vastly improved players beside him, Halapio could prove to be a significant upgrade as a player who isn’t being talked about much heading into 2019.


the other players on the list
Levi Wallace, CB, Buffalo Bills
Vita Vea, DL, Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Mackensie Alexander, CB, Minnesota Vikings
O.J. Howard, TE, Tampa Bay Buccaneers

Link - ( New Window )
by the way  
Giantsfan79 : 6/17/2019 9:07 am : link
the entire article is written by various folks from the PFF website. And goes into depth about the development of analytics + football. Like or not, it's not going away. And much baseball will inevitably change the game.
It's not that analytics aren't important, it's that PFF rating is  
Zeke's Alibi : 6/17/2019 9:22 am : link
a pretty useless rating in the grand scheme of things. Analytics aren't subjective and that is exactly what the PFF rating is especially without no known assignments. It is really no different than a scout giving his grade and I trust them a helluva lot more.

I laughed at the line of PFF rating being at the heart of all contract negotiations. GTFOH. Nice shill piece by Collinsworth though to get the rubes to buy his consumer product. If you didn't notice he was pimping it would help your gambling. There's a sucker born every minute.


All that being said Pio seems to be more talented than your average journeyman and if he can get the line calls right maybe he does break out.
You Know  
Bernie : 6/17/2019 9:37 am : link
Analytics are great and all, but the simple question is: Did he get the guy blocked? If yes, that's an A. If no, that's an F. You can coach technique to increase the chances of making the block, but when its all said and done, what are the results? Good technique that does not result in a block is useless.
The Giants had him  
Bill in UT : 6/17/2019 9:37 am : link
splitting the 1's with Pulley, so I wouldn't call him a lock yet
I know my take on Halapio wont be popular but here it is..  
90.Cal : 6/17/2019 9:54 am : link
Pio is not very good... Pulley is much better. Pulley was very solid in the 2nd half of last season. Pio's play was very overrated at the start of last season, he looked very shakey. Start Pulley Week 1 and never look back. It was a mistake to even think Pio was better than Brett Jones last year, he wasn't. That's my honest opinion.
RE: I know my take on Halapio wont be popular but here it is..  
Canton : 6/17/2019 10:02 am : link
In comment 14474084 90.Cal said:
Quote:
Pio is not very good... Pulley is much better. Pulley was very solid in the 2nd half of last season. Pio's play was very overrated at the start of last season, he looked very shakey. Start Pulley Week 1 and never look back. It was a mistake to even think Pio was better than Brett Jones last year, he wasn't. That's my honest opinion.



Thank you for your "honest" opinion. But sadly, it still doesn't make you right.
Pio and Pulley are very different players  
Bob in Newburgh : 6/17/2019 10:16 am : link
Pio is not that much different than Zeitler. Strength and use of leverage. Moving the big DTs and keeping pocket firm.

Pulley is a traditional second level C who can wall off inside backers and pick up blitzers where range is required. Going to be over-powered from time to time.

SB's relative success should determine starter.
It's a shame that Halapio got hurt so early.  
Klaatu : 6/17/2019 11:11 am : link
We never got to see if he would improve as the season progressed.
Not to familiar with Pio  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 6/17/2019 11:21 am : link
But I prefer my cerebal centers, like Ohara, Saturday, Mangold, Pouncey...
RE: I know my take on Halapio wont be popular but here it is..  
Jay on the Island : 6/17/2019 11:30 am : link
In comment 14474084 90.Cal said:
Quote:
Pio is not very good... Pulley is much better. Pulley was very solid in the 2nd half of last season. Pio's play was very overrated at the start of last season, he looked very shakey. Start Pulley Week 1 and never look back. It was a mistake to even think Pio was better than Brett Jones last year, he wasn't. That's my honest opinion.

Halapio is an unknown quantity. He apparently impressed in limited time last season.

I watched Pulley closely last season and I don't know how you can say he was solid. Pulley is smart and did a good job with the line calls but he struggled mightily versus power rushers. He was frequently pushed back into the pocket. The offensive line improved when Jamon Brown was inserted into the starting lineup with Solder being healthy.

Halapio has also received praise from the coaching staff and LeCharles Bentley. We don't know what we have in Halapio yet but we do know that Pulley is not a starting caliber center.
RE: The Giants had him  
Beer Man : 6/17/2019 11:34 am : link
In comment 14474071 Bill in UT said:
Quote:
splitting the 1's with Pulley, so I wouldn't call him a lock yet
+1
That article was a shameless PFF ad.  
Sneakers O'toole : 6/17/2019 11:39 am : link
That's it.
Halapio could not handle stunts  
Vanzetti : 6/17/2019 11:41 am : link
Go watch that Strong Opinion video on Eli. You will see the Cowboys stunt and bring the DE right up the middle, which is wide open because Halapio has his back turned to the play and his "helping" Hernandez who completely has his man locked up.

Eli had a 280 lb pass rusher coming full bore, right at him, unblocked. THat's how QBs get injured.

The Cowboys were exploiting Halapio. Baiting him to vacate the middle.
Perhaps  
mako J : 6/17/2019 12:10 pm : link
The center was tasked with "cheating" toward helping the rookie OG playing in his first ever NFL game? Perhaps the staff expected the veteran OG/RT combo to handle rudimentary T/E twists?

Plenty of snaps this preseason to better evaluate the C position. Will be fun to watch all the pending position battles.

It will be one of the more interesting  
Sneakers O'toole : 6/17/2019 12:17 pm : link
position battles this summer. Looking forward to seeing some preseason action!
Whoever starts at left guard ...  
Manny in CA : 6/17/2019 2:33 pm : link

Will benefit from Will Hernandez knowing what to do. Coming in from UT El Paso, he was more than a little lost. But he hasAs I rev enormous ability he overcame and is now ready to begin to be a star

As I recall, Pio had next to no center experience when he was called to take over that spot, last year. I thought he did very well, considering. Will will need very little help, Pio has been studying hard, while injured.

I think Pulley is as good as he's going to get (which isn't too bad), except he gets pushed back.. In that respect, he reminds me of ex Giant O'Hara, very smart not ever fooled, but not strong enough to approach 1st tier.

Please forgive the terrible typos ...  
Manny in CA : 6/17/2019 2:36 pm : link

Meant to say - Hernandez has enormous ability.
RE: RE: I know my take on Halapio wont be popular but here it is..  
90.Cal : 6/17/2019 3:34 pm : link
In comment 14474094 Canton said:
Quote:
In comment 14474084 90.Cal said:


Quote:


Pio is not very good... Pulley is much better. Pulley was very solid in the 2nd half of last season. Pio's play was very overrated at the start of last season, he looked very shakey. Start Pulley Week 1 and never look back. It was a mistake to even think Pio was better than Brett Jones last year, he wasn't. That's my honest opinion.




Thank you for your "honest" opinion. But sadly, it still doesn't make you right.


Well Canton, in case you dont know...

See the thing about opinions is...
it's an opinion.... soooo... Ugh...

I was not looking to be right or wrong but thanks for your thanks.
Until..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/17/2019 5:33 pm : link
PFF is partnering with NFL teams to rate players, it is simply just a way for them to fool fans into thinking they have introduced advanced analytics.

Their methodology is so shoddy that they often have people who know little about football trying to determine what a player's assignment was, what the playcall was and what schemes were employed.

Heck, we had one poster try this exact exercise (even using Halapio) last week and it was a complete load of crap.

When PFF doesn't know the insight you absolutely MUST have to know if a player did the right or wrong thing, they will continue to be nothing but stat porn
Maybe  
Jerry K : 6/17/2019 6:12 pm : link
Pass rushers just used the turnstile to his right.
RE: Pio and Pulley are very different players  
flycatcher : 6/17/2019 6:36 pm : link
In comment 14474118 Bob in Newburgh said:
Quote:
Pio is not that much different than Zeitler. Strength and use of leverage. Moving the big DTs and keeping pocket firm.

Pulley is a traditional second level C who can wall off inside backers and pick up blitzers where range is required. Going to be over-powered from time to time.

SB's relative success should determine starter.

That’s a good post - the contrasting styles will be interesting to watch during preseason.
RE: Until..  
adamg : 6/17/2019 6:58 pm : link
In comment 14474682 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
PFF is partnering with NFL teams to rate players, it is simply just a way for them to fool fans into thinking they have introduced advanced analytics.

Their methodology is so shoddy that they often have people who know little about football trying to determine what a player's assignment was, what the playcall was and what schemes were employed.

Heck, we had one poster try this exact exercise (even using Halapio) last week and it was a complete load of crap.

When PFF doesn't know the insight you absolutely MUST have to know if a player did the right or wrong thing, they will continue to be nothing but stat porn


I think they use interns for their college rankings. I imagine the interns who graduate go on the NFL games and/or write for PFF.
RE: Until..  
Ten Ton Hammer : 6/17/2019 8:10 pm : link
In comment 14474682 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:


Their methodology is so shoddy that they often have people who know little about football trying to determine what a player's assignment was, what the playcall was and what schemes were employed.


This seems to be a cornerstone argument for you, and this is simply something you cannot actually prove. You're accusing the people who do it of knowing nothing, while doing the same thing. Unless, forgive me for jumping to conclusions, you have an inside knowledge of their process.
Dude has 8 career starts  
justafan : 6/17/2019 9:35 pm : link
in 3 seasons. Form 6th round pick. Obviously taken as a developmental guy, but I'm not pinning a ton of hopes to him. May the best man win between him, Pulley, or some yet to be signed Center.

There are still a ton of question marks on this line outside of Zietler and Hernandez. Will Nate Solder live up to the big money thrown at him? The previously mentioned Center spot. And will Mike Remmers be a serviceable RT, if not, welcome back to the Chad Wheeler show.

The Giants offense absolutely needs to sustain drivers to take pressure off the defense which is still short a proven pass rusher and it starts with the offensive line.
Pff is hot garbage  
Sneakers O'toole : 6/17/2019 11:12 pm : link
.
It is..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/18/2019 10:43 am : link
a cornerstone argument because of the emphasis FANS put on this information:

Quote:
This seems to be a cornerstone argument for you, and this is simply something you cannot actually prove. You're accusing the people who do it of knowing nothing, while doing the same thing. Unless, forgive me for jumping to conclusions, you have an inside knowledge of their process.


PFF's rankings are fully dependent on people watching plays and determining if the player did their assignment correctly and followed the best result. So in theory, a QB could still get a negative rating for a TD pass if he makes a poor throw that a WR has to adjust to. Conversely, a WR who runs a route incorrectly gets docked points. But the reviewer has to know what the route was and if it was followed. Translate to rankings for OL and DL and they also need to assume what the playcall was, the assignment was and what the scheme was - and figure out if an audible and what audible was called.

It is completely provable to say that methodology is questionable if not downright horrible. Many people here put a lot of stock in Belicheck. He thinks PFF is hot garbage. He has a quote where he says that he can't even rate his players until all the staff is together and they call out what the play and assignments were, so how can a guy on his couch.

And the proof is in how NFL teams view PFF's rankings. There is not a single NFL team that ascribes to their player rankings. Not one. What PFF sells to team is quantitative data on snap counts and other stats that teams purchase in lieu of having an intern compile.

And obviously, this cannot be proven, but in talking with coaches, scouts and executives at the Combine, there is almost a unanimous disregard for what PFF has done to skew fans perceptions. Agents will try to use PFF rankings to get larger contracts. ESPN and fan sites quote PFF's rankings as if they are real indicators of play. There isn't even a belief that some of the rankings are even directionally correct.

It is stat porn, that plays well for those who follow metrics in baseball. They are trying to bring that same authority to the NFL, but whereas MLB GM's and coaches recognize the value of baseball analytics, it is completely different. It isn't a subjective rating system - it is concrete stats. For the NFL it is utter crap.
i don't get the love for Pio  
Dave : 6/18/2019 10:47 am : link
but really haven't seen him play much, and the OL was a disaster last year at the start
RE: i don't get the love for Pio  
Klaatu : 6/18/2019 10:58 am : link
In comment 14475467 Dave said:
Quote:
but really haven't seen him play much, and the OL was a disaster last year at the start


How can you not love this face?

Fatman....I don't get the hype for PFF. Professional scouts already  
Zeke's Alibi : 6/18/2019 12:02 pm : link
have done this for years. The difference is they have years of experience around the game and may be able to extrapolate what players are and aren't supposed to do. This is why it is an inexact science scouting players and insight from college coaches helps tremendously. You than need to parse through what is hype and what is not because all those guys have agendas. Some guys want to hype their players above their ability so they can say hey I took this guy pro. Jim Mora pretty much warned us on Rosen and he had no reason to. Urban said Dwayne wasn't ready to make the jump. Now is it because he is pissed he went one and done and wanted to discourage that behavior in the future or if that is his true feelings who knows.

They also don't judge on a stupid +1/-1 scale. Say a guy makes ten decent plays and one horrific mistake. He gets grade out as elite?
As a handicapper and someone that does fairly well in the NFL  
Zeke's Alibi : 6/18/2019 12:08 pm : link
due to years of experience and being involved in the community a bit, PFF is nothing more than trying to ride the wave of soon to be legalized sports gambling to a consumer base.

Collinsworth lucked into PFF, but he have to credit him to seeing this opportunity. That article is pretty much a marketing piece for their consumer products. I guarantee you the real pro gamblers aren't using PFF since they actually take the time to break down film similar to how a professional scout would and not assigning stupid +1/-1 grades.
RE: Halapio could not handle stunts  
Brown_Hornet : 6/18/2019 12:42 pm : link
In comment 14474229 Vanzetti said:
Quote:
Go watch that Strong Opinion video on Eli. You will see the Cowboys stunt and bring the DE right up the middle, which is wide open because Halapio has his back turned to the play and his "helping" Hernandez who completely has his man locked up.

Eli had a 280 lb pass rusher coming full bore, right at him, unblocked. THat's how QBs get injured.

The Cowboys were exploiting Halapio. Baiting him to vacate the middle.
Solvable in the film room.
Lets judge a guy completely off his first NFL game at a new position.  
Zeke's Alibi : 6/18/2019 1:14 pm : link
Cmon. I'm not saying he's the answer, but let's give the guy a chance. If he isn't getting it this year by the time the season rolls around I'm all for putting in Pulley. Should be an interesting camp battle.
RE: It is..  
Hades07 : 6/19/2019 8:01 pm : link
In comment 14475460 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
a cornerstone argument because of the emphasis FANS put on this information:



Quote:


This seems to be a cornerstone argument for you, and this is simply something you cannot actually prove. You're accusing the people who do it of knowing nothing, while doing the same thing. Unless, forgive me for jumping to conclusions, you have an inside knowledge of their process.



PFF's rankings are fully dependent on people watching plays and determining if the player did their assignment correctly and followed the best result. So in theory, a QB could still get a negative rating for a TD pass if he makes a poor throw that a WR has to adjust to. Conversely, a WR who runs a route incorrectly gets docked points. But the reviewer has to know what the route was and if it was followed. Translate to rankings for OL and DL and they also need to assume what the playcall was, the assignment was and what the scheme was - and figure out if an audible and what audible was called.

It is completely provable to say that methodology is questionable if not downright horrible. Many people here put a lot of stock in Belicheck. He thinks PFF is hot garbage. He has a quote where he says that he can't even rate his players until all the staff is together and they call out what the play and assignments were, so how can a guy on his couch.

And the proof is in how NFL teams view PFF's rankings. There is not a single NFL team that ascribes to their player rankings. Not one. What PFF sells to team is quantitative data on snap counts and other stats that teams purchase in lieu of having an intern compile.

And obviously, this cannot be proven, but in talking with coaches, scouts and executives at the Combine, there is almost a unanimous disregard for what PFF has done to skew fans perceptions. Agents will try to use PFF rankings to get larger contracts. ESPN and fan sites quote PFF's rankings as if they are real indicators of play. There isn't even a belief that some of the rankings are even directionally correct.

It is stat porn, that plays well for those who follow metrics in baseball. They are trying to bring that same authority to the NFL, but whereas MLB GM's and coaches recognize the value of baseball analytics, it is completely different. It isn't a subjective rating system - it is concrete stats. For the NFL it is utter crap.
you summed that up pretty well there. Couldn't agree more.
Back to the Corner