Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner

Archived Thread

DG's all out investment in the defense this year -

BlueLou'sBack : 6/18/2019 6:13 pm
particularly at the CB position (or DB if any of the guys picked gets moved to FS eventually.)

After grabbing his future franchise QB at 6 overall he used the following picks to bolster the defense:

1st round DT Dexter Lawrence
1st round (or call it early 2nd, 4th, and 5th rounders, the cost to move back into the 1st round) CB DeAndre Baker
3rd round (early) (at the value of a #2 since used a year early) CB Sam Beal.
3rd round (late) ER/OLB Oshane Ximines
4th round (early) CB Julian Love
5th round (early) ILB Ryan Connelly
6th round (early) CB Corey Ballentine
7th round (late) DT Chris Slayton

It's almost more impressive if you list it as their original draft assets before the trade up for Baker:

1st round DT
2nd round CB
3rd round CB
3rd round ER/OLB
4th round CB
4th round CB
5th round LB
5th round CB
6th round CB
7th round DT

Summed that's 6 draft picks spent on 4 CBs: Baker, Beal, Love and Ballentine. I'm guessing that's some type of cluster drafting record all time... Throw in last year's UDFA CB Grant Haley who played the nickle/slot CB pretty well, and got stronger as he gained experience at the position.

Each of the drafted CBs was a full 2 year starter at least - interestingly Ballentine looks to be the only full time 3 year starter among them. Ballentine was also a track star and an Academic All American over several semesters. Baker was a HS track star, and Beal too runs like a gazelle and has outstanding length.

It remains to be seen if any of these guys can play well at the NFL level, but I for one am very, very optimistic that DG has completely revamped the Giants' secondary in a manner that will bring tangible results to the defense this year.

Whatever, it's likely to be a wild ride as the kids find their NFL turf legs, and we'll be seeing more speed on the Giants' defense, by 2020 at least, than we've seen in a long time as this collection of track stars works their way into the Giants' starting, nickle and dime DB packages.


Pages: 1 2 <<Prev | Show All |
RE: If it was an all out investment  
BlueLou'sBack : 6/18/2019 7:35 pm : link
In comment 14476036 Chip said:
Quote:
We would have Josh Allen playing for us.


i stand corrected to "almost all out".

Although my "all out" would have been Ed Oliver at 6, not Allen, then Lawrence or Sweat at 17...
DD you still didn't answer my question.  
BlueLou'sBack : 6/18/2019 7:38 pm : link
How much of an improvement is reasonable to expect?

Middle of the pack points allowed? Middle of the pack yards and first downs allowed? 2nd quartile for both? Top third?
DeAndre Baker 2018 highlights.  
BlueLou'sBack : 6/18/2019 7:42 pm : link
Some good stuff here, but he gets flagged a good bit too.
DeAndre Baker 2018 Youtube - ( New Window )
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: The investment underscores that Bettcher  
BigBlueShock : 6/18/2019 7:48 pm : link
In comment 14476042 Diver_Down said:
Quote:
In comment 14476032 BigBlueShock said:


Quote:



It is blatantly obvious by every one of your posts in this thread that you are just waiting (almost hoping) to blame Bettcher for all the worlds problems. Let me guess...not a fan?



I'm not hoping that he fails. I'm not expecting a top tier unit, either. But the one aspect to DG that has been equally praised is lack of scholarships. Hopefully, that extends to the coaching staff.

Scholarships? Isnít that reserved for those that have never proven themselves? Bettcher did an incredible job in Arizona and proved heís an outstanding coach.

Just admit it. For whatever reason you donít like him. The guy has PROVEN that he can coach a quality defense. Thatís not a ďscholarshipĒ situation. So you can sit and wait and hope to pounce on him all season if youíd like. Thatís your choice. But this is clearly a matter of you not like Bettcher and you will wait for every opportunity to kill him this season. You know it. I know it. We all know it.
RE: Problem here is  
Brown_Hornet : 6/18/2019 7:48 pm : link
In comment 14475994 MookGiants said:
Quote:
the pass rush is still a train wreck. Hopefully guys like Carter develop. And our 3rd round pick. But the biggest weakness on the team is pass rush. That was not addressed in the off-season.

Is it?
Reese was always good at positional draft construction  
V.I.G. : 6/18/2019 7:57 pm : link
He just missed nearly every pick for half a decade.

Only thing that matters is whether DG's picks can play
Re the pass rush,  
BlueLou'sBack : 6/18/2019 7:59 pm : link
they signed Golden, drafted Lawrence and Ximines, and are counting on development and improvements from Carter, Hill and Tomlinson. They will blitz DBs from multiple formations too.

Whether that all adds up to more than a hill of beans is anyone's guess at this point.
...  
christian : 6/18/2019 8:02 pm : link
I'd argue Gettleman invested heavily in the secondary and moderately in the rest of the defense.

Lawrence is the only real investment outside of the secondary.

I'm a little concerned frankly the defense is full of guys with question marks from an Arizona defense that had one good year under Bettcher; Golden, Pierre, Martin, and Bethea aren't an impressive group to me.
RE: Reese was always good at positional draft construction  
BlueLou'sBack : 6/18/2019 8:04 pm : link
In comment 14476070 V.I.G. said:
Quote:
He just missed nearly every pick for half a decade.

Only thing that matters is whether DG's picks can play


The thing I found most problematic with Reese's drafts were positional valuations.

Reese invested enormous resources to WRs, whereas Bellichick, until this year, hadn't drafted a WR in the first round in almost 20 years, or something like that, since Vencie Glenn IIRC.
RE: DD you still didn't answer my question.  
Diver_Down : 6/18/2019 8:11 pm : link
In comment 14476049 BlueLou'sBack said:
Quote:
How much of an improvement is reasonable to expect?

Middle of the pack points allowed? Middle of the pack yards and first downs allowed? 2nd quartile for both? Top third?


Last year, we had a 23 ranked team defense. Let's eliminate a Top 10 ranking. So from 11 to 20 is the middle ground. Is improving from 23rd ranked defense to the 20th ranked defense enough? I don't think so. I'm setting the bar at 16th ranked defense - exactly middle of the pack. I don't think that is unreasonable expectation. While Bettcher came with a proven resume from Arizona, he hasn't lived up to his attacking/aggressive scheme that was expected. He had the excuse last year with a lack of talent. This year, every player on defense is endorsed by Bettcher.

And despite what Shock insinuates that I'll be waiting to point out every failure, the reality is that my expectations aren't unreasonable. Any acceptance for lesser results by the fan base is a clear conditioning response to watching losing football for so long.
RE: RE: Problem here is  
adamg : 6/18/2019 8:17 pm : link
In comment 14476000 Diver_Down said:
Quote:
In comment 14475994 MookGiants said:


Quote:


the pass rush is still a train wreck. Hopefully guys like Carter develop. And our 3rd round pick. But the biggest weakness on the team is pass rush. That was not addressed in the off-season.



Wrong. Golden was endorsed by Bettcher. Yes, he was coming back from an injury last year, but he should be fully healed/rehabbed 2 years removed. Risky gamble, but Bettcher has placed his bet.


I remember Gettleman being lukewarm on the pass rush in a press conference. He emphasized rushing the passer from positions other than ER. They might genuinely believe having gone hard at the secondary the pass rush position won't have to improve at the same rate to be more effective. That was the sense I got from Getts at least.
RE: RE: DD you still didn't answer my question.  
BlueLou'sBack : 6/18/2019 8:18 pm : link
In comment 14476090 Diver_Down said:
Quote:
In comment 14476049 BlueLou'sBack said:


Quote:


How much of an improvement is reasonable to expect?

Middle of the pack points allowed? Middle of the pack yards and first downs allowed? 2nd quartile for both? Top third?



Last year, we had a 23 ranked team defense. Let's eliminate a Top 10 ranking. So from 11 to 20 is the middle ground. Is improving from 23rd ranked defense to the 20th ranked defense enough? I don't think so. I'm setting the bar at 16th ranked defense - exactly middle of the pack. I don't think that is unreasonable expectation. While Bettcher came with a proven resume from Arizona, he hasn't lived up to his attacking/aggressive scheme that was expected. He had the excuse last year with a lack of talent. This year, every player on defense is endorsed by Bettcher.

And despite what Shock insinuates that I'll be waiting to point out every failure, the reality is that my expectations aren't unreasonable. Any acceptance for lesser results by the fan base is a clear conditioning response to watching losing football for so long.


I agree 100%. They should improve to the top 16 this year. I also think - perhaps optimistically but I think not - that Lawrence and Baker can be significant, immediate, upgrades at their positions.

Some folks said Lawrence was "NFL ready" as a college Freshman. Baker hasn't allowed a TD - going against #1 WRs in the SEC - in over 2 years.

I expect those two to play and play well.
This teams offense should be much better than our defense  
Zeke's Alibi : 6/18/2019 8:46 pm : link
with all the investment it has received. The amount of people that act like rookies just step in the NFL and perform at a high level are delusional. That is not how it works in the NFL. If our first round pick Baker plays at average NFL CB level that is a big win.
RE: Problem here is  
rdt288 : 6/18/2019 9:21 pm : link
In comment 14475994 MookGiants said:
Quote:
the pass rush is still a train wreck. Hopefully guys like Carter develop. And our 3rd round pick. But the biggest weakness on the team is pass rush. That was not addressed in the off-season.


This right here is a problem. Who is gonna rush the passer
Everybody  
idiotsavant : 6/18/2019 9:26 pm : link
.
Fans not knowing...  
Brown_Hornet : 6/18/2019 9:29 pm : link
...what the team has planned regarding pass rush (or anything else) does not qualify it as a train wreck.

In any way.

RE: RE: Problem here is  
christian : 6/18/2019 9:33 pm : link
In comment 14476165 rdt288 said:
Quote:
In comment 14475994 MookGiants said:


Quote:


the pass rush is still a train wreck. Hopefully guys like Carter develop. And our 3rd round pick. But the biggest weakness on the team is pass rush. That was not addressed in the off-season.



This right here is a problem. Who is gonna rush the passer


The Giants have a markedly better line with Hill, Lawrence, Tomlinson, and McIntosh. That is a line that can collapse a pocket. That's much more important than edge rushing.

The point is to make the quarterback consistently uncomfortable while maintaining coverage and gap integrity.

In Bettcher's best year in AZ the cards only had 37 sacks, and were a top 10 scoring defense.
RE: The investment underscores that Bettcher  
MM_in_NYC : 6/18/2019 9:51 pm : link
In comment 14475975 Diver_Down said:
Quote:
can no longer use the excuse of lack of talent. Besides the draft, there were FA signings that bolstered the defense. These are all Bettcher Boys. If the defense is a bottom performing unit, Bettcher should be shown the door.


You expect a bunch of rookies to turn around a defense in year 1? Sorry, you make no sense.
I think the defense is going to be much  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 6/18/2019 9:57 pm : link
better than people think.
Over the last two drafts DG has essentially used 7 top 100 picks  
djm : 6/18/2019 10:33 pm : link
On the defense. They spent 3 on the offense in Barkley, Jones and Hernandez. Good quality beef has been added. Time for bettcher to make it work.
RE: What stands out to me is  
eric2425ny : 6/18/2019 11:13 pm : link
In comment 14475988 RobCrossRiver56 said:
Quote:
was the commitment to DB's. All at least 5'11" 195 and skilled players, knowing that's what it's going to take to compete in a pass happy league.

Also, it seems like the Giants did not draft players just to compete but drafted them with specific roles in mind for each. Win or lose, this is going to be a fun team to watch this season.


Totally agree, the cluster drafting at DB has me intrigued.

RE: RE: The investment underscores that Bettcher  
BlueLou'sBack : 6/19/2019 12:31 am : link
In comment 14476208 MM_in_NYC said:
Quote:
In comment 14475975 Diver_Down said:


Quote:


can no longer use the excuse of lack of talent. Besides the draft, there were FA signings that bolstered the defense. These are all Bettcher Boys. If the defense is a bottom performing unit, Bettcher should be shown the door.



You expect a bunch of rookies to turn around a defense in year 1? Sorry, you make no sense.


You've missed DD's point. It's the key rookies + the 2nd year players (and Tomlinson) + "Bettcher's boys" from Arizona brought in as FAs + of course Peppers.

DG has targeted a group of players that fit Bettcher's schemes, (and I think) Bettcher's attitude.
RE: The investment underscores that Bettcher  
TrueBlue56 : 6/19/2019 12:37 am : link
In comment 14475975 Diver_Down said:
Quote:
can no longer use the excuse of lack of talent. Besides the draft, there were FA signings that bolstered the defense. These are all Bettcher Boys. If the defense is a bottom performing unit, Bettcher should be shown the door.


Lack of talent wasn't an excuse, it is a reason. Dave Gettleman, shurmur and bettcher were given a garbage roster and not much to work with. Gettleman has done a very good job in rebuilding this team in such a short amount of time, but there is still work to be done. Consider thsst bettcher will have 8 players on defense starting that weren't on the roster when bettcher came on. The only holdovers are Goodson, Tomlinson and jenkins.

You calling for his job if he doesn't produce results is absolutely asinine. This will be the first year where he will have some pieces, but how many rookies is he starting, a totally revamped secondary.

BY your logic, let's fire bettcher and bring in someone else and start all over again. Forget what is being built. We will just do that with all of the coaches and general manager and see how that works out for you.

This is year 2....not year 5!!!!
You will all pardon me (I hope) if I view this with some skepticism  
.McL. : 6/19/2019 3:31 am : link
Last year at this time Solder and Omameh had been signed, and Hernandez drafter.

Everybody on this site was enthusiastically optimistic that that OL had been fixed. If you looked at my posts at the time, I said that while getting an better LT, that the line was far from fixed and as it was constituted at that time, it was probably worse than it was the in 2017...

Fast forward 1 year, and I while I believe the line seems to be better on paper, these guys still need to gel. Solder is another year older, Halapio is returning from a gruesome ankle injury (not that I was ever high on him before), and we really don't know how Remmers will turn out. And there is still very little depth... So I still don't consider the OL "fixed".

On to the defense. All these rookies with great potential. Potential is a curse and a blessing. And certainly as rookies we can expect them to play, well, as rookies. None of these guys have played together before (unless you count Haley and Jenkins). There are going to be mistakes. Lots of them. Some of these guys won't work out. Jenkins and Bethea are older than dirt, who know how much they have left in them. Also some of the new addition won't work out. We know this, not every draft pick makes it, and not every FA can meld into a new team or has anything left. Some poor play, a couple of injuries and this could turn into an utter disaster really fast.

Mind you, I am not complaining about Gettlemen here. I think his efforts are moving the team in a better direction. But, until it translates on the field, its all just unbounded hope and speculation.

My apologies for your daily dose of realism...

Carry on...
RE: RE: What stands out to me is  
jeffusedtobeonwebtv : 6/19/2019 6:22 am : link
In comment 14476316 eric2425ny said:
Quote:
In comment 14475988 RobCrossRiver56 said:


Quote:


was the commitment to DB's. All at least 5'11" 195 and skilled players, knowing that's what it's going to take to compete in a pass happy league.

Also, it seems like the Giants did not draft players just to compete but drafted them with specific roles in mind for each. Win or lose, this is going to be a fun team to watch this season.



Totally agree, the cluster drafting at DB has me intrigued.


And let us not forget that Gettleman supposedly did not value d backs. Remember what he did with Josh Norman's contract situation at Carolina?
RE: RE: RE: The investment underscores that Bettcher  
MM_in_NYC : 6/19/2019 8:20 am : link
In comment 14476360 BlueLou'sBack said:
Quote:
In comment 14476208 MM_in_NYC said:


Quote:


In comment 14475975 Diver_Down said:


Quote:


can no longer use the excuse of lack of talent. Besides the draft, there were FA signings that bolstered the defense. These are all Bettcher Boys. If the defense is a bottom performing unit, Bettcher should be shown the door.



You expect a bunch of rookies to turn around a defense in year 1? Sorry, you make no sense.



You've missed DD's point. It's the key rookies + the 2nd year players (and Tomlinson) + "Bettcher's boys" from Arizona brought in as FAs + of course Peppers.

DG has targeted a group of players that fit Bettcher's schemes, (and I think) Bettcher's attitude.


No, I don't believe I did miss his point. His point was clearly stated:"The [draft] investment underscores Bettcher can no longer use the excuse of lack of talent."

Or are you saying Tier 3 and 4 free agent signings such as Bethea, Pierre, and Golden all of sudden enhanced the talent on our D to top half NFL levels?

Either way, the actual point, the one that you and he are missing, is that our talent (read: ability) level on D was simply not substantially improved so as to see material improvement this year. We have bottom half ability at all three levels on D. We do not have established pass rushers, our cornerback situation is basically one vet and bunch of rookies, and then we have our linebackers, that beacon of light. Yes, our DT's do look pretty good.

I'll further add that this entire premise is based on the shaky foundation of equating talent with ability. If you put together a team entirely of 2019 first round draft picks they'd probably have the most talent of any NFL team - but they certainly won't be the team in 2019 with the ability to have the most success. So let's make sure we're precise about what we're talking about and avoid playing games with the meaning of the word "talent".

RE: RE: RE: RE: The investment underscores that Bettcher  
Diver_Down : 6/19/2019 8:28 am : link
In comment 14476429 MM_in_NYC said:
Quote:
In comment 14476360 BlueLou'sBack said:


Quote:


In comment 14476208 MM_in_NYC said:


Quote:


In comment 14475975 Diver_Down said:


Quote:


can no longer use the excuse of lack of talent. Besides the draft, there were FA signings that bolstered the defense. These are all Bettcher Boys. If the defense is a bottom performing unit, Bettcher should be shown the door.



You expect a bunch of rookies to turn around a defense in year 1? Sorry, you make no sense.



You've missed DD's point. It's the key rookies + the 2nd year players (and Tomlinson) + "Bettcher's boys" from Arizona brought in as FAs + of course Peppers.

DG has targeted a group of players that fit Bettcher's schemes, (and I think) Bettcher's attitude.



No, I don't believe I did miss his point. His point was clearly stated:"The [draft] investment underscores Bettcher can no longer use the excuse of lack of talent."

Or are you saying Tier 3 and 4 free agent signings such as Bethea, Pierre, and Golden all of sudden enhanced the talent on our D to top half NFL levels?

Either way, the actual point, the one that you and he are missing, is that our talent (read: ability) level on D was simply not substantially improved so as to see material improvement this year. We have bottom half ability at all three levels on D. We do not have established pass rushers, our cornerback situation is basically one vet and bunch of rookies, and then we have our linebackers, that beacon of light. Yes, our DT's do look pretty good.

I'll further add that this entire premise is based on the shaky foundation of equating talent with ability. If you put together a team entirely of 2019 first round draft picks they'd probably have the most talent of any NFL team - but they certainly won't be the team in 2019 with the ability to have the most success. So let's make sure we're precise about what we're talking about and avoid playing games with the meaning of the word "talent".


You don't have to ask BlueLou what I meant. He has it right. It isn't about the singular investment from this year's draft. Bettcher has endorsed the defensive drafts (2018 Draft, 2018 Supplemental, 2019 Draft). He has brought in his veteran players that are familiar with his scheme. Setting expectations as middle of the pack defense (32 teams - line of demarcation is 16) is not unreasonable. If you want to lay the foundation for excuses why a 16th ranked defense is unattainable that is on you. I think any tolerance and acceptance for lesser results is a conditioning response caused by watching losing football for so long.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: The investment underscores that Bettcher  
MM_in_NYC : 6/19/2019 8:45 am : link
In comment 14476437 Diver_Down said:
Quote:
In comment 14476429 MM_in_NYC said:


You expect a bunch of rookies to turn around a defense in year 1? Sorry, you make no sense.



You've missed DD's point. It's the key rookies + the 2nd year players (and Tomlinson) + "Bettcher's boys" from Arizona brought in as FAs + of course Peppers.

DG has targeted a group of players that fit Bettcher's schemes, (and I think) Bettcher's attitude.



No, I don't believe I did miss his point. His point was clearly stated:"The [draft] investment underscores Bettcher can no longer use the excuse of lack of talent."

Or are you saying Tier 3 and 4 free agent signings such as Bethea, Pierre, and Golden all of sudden enhanced the talent on our D to top half NFL levels?

Either way, the actual point, the one that you and he are missing, is that our talent (read: ability) level on D was simply not substantially improved so as to see material improvement this year. We have bottom half ability at all three levels on D. We do not have established pass rushers, our cornerback situation is basically one vet and bunch of rookies, and then we have our linebackers, that beacon of light. Yes, our DT's do look pretty good.

I'll further add that this entire premise is based on the shaky foundation of equating talent with ability. If you put together a team entirely of 2019 first round draft picks they'd probably have the most talent of any NFL team - but they certainly won't be the team in 2019 with the ability to have the most success. So let's make sure we're precise about what we're talking about and avoid playing games with the meaning of the word "talent".




You don't have to ask BlueLou what I meant. He has it right. It isn't about the singular investment from this year's draft. Bettcher has endorsed the defensive drafts (2018 Draft, 2018 Supplemental, 2019 Draft). He has brought in his veteran players that are familiar with his scheme. Setting expectations as middle of the pack defense (32 teams - line of demarcation is 16) is not unreasonable. If you want to lay the foundation for excuses why a 16th ranked defense is unattainable that is on you. I think any tolerance and acceptance for lesser results is a conditioning response caused by watching losing football for so long.


Utterly ridiculous. Not believing we have high level talent on D has nothing, zero, to do with tolerance of acceptance of lesser results. Also, in case you're confused, I, and you, have zero ability to influence the success of this team - so I'm not tolerating or accepting anything - I'm existing within the world we live in - and objectively evaluating the situation.
...  
christian : 6/19/2019 9:01 am : link
Optimism aside, just logically not all of the draft picks are going hit, or hit day one. Not all of the ex-Cards will be who they were 3-4 years ago.

I don't blame Bettcher for last year. Right or wrong, Gettleman purged the defense of a lot of talent.

JPP, DRC, Apple, Snacks, Kennard, and Okwara for 16 games would have netted better results. But they weren't in the long-term interest of the team.

But the defense got to a point where it really sucked. They gave up 25 points + in 8 games, they only kept 2 teams under 20 points (Titans who kicked their ass in the rain, and the Skins with Mark Sanchez at QB).

Getting to about league average on D given the inherent risk in young players and where they are coming from would be a huge success.
RE: The investment underscores that Bettcher  
djstat : 6/19/2019 9:06 am : link
In comment 14475975 Diver_Down said:
Quote:
can no longer use the excuse of lack of talent. Besides the draft, there were FA signings that bolstered the defense. These are all Bettcher Boys. If the defense is a bottom performing unit, Bettcher should be shown the door.
He has been here one year. He has a lot of rookies and new talent. You cannot keep running coaches out of town because it take s a year or two for the system to gel.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: The investment underscores that Bettcher  
Scuzzlebutt : 6/19/2019 9:13 am : link
In comment 14476437 Diver_Down said:
Quote:
In comment 14476429 MM_in_NYC said:


Quote:


In comment 14476360 BlueLou'sBack said:


Quote:


In comment 14476208 MM_in_NYC said:


Quote:


In comment 14475975 Diver_Down said:


Quote:


can no longer use the excuse of lack of talent. Besides the draft, there were FA signings that bolstered the defense. These are all Bettcher Boys. If the defense is a bottom performing unit, Bettcher should be shown the door.



You expect a bunch of rookies to turn around a defense in year 1? Sorry, you make no sense.



You've missed DD's point. It's the key rookies + the 2nd year players (and Tomlinson) + "Bettcher's boys" from Arizona brought in as FAs + of course Peppers.

DG has targeted a group of players that fit Bettcher's schemes, (and I think) Bettcher's attitude.



No, I don't believe I did miss his point. His point was clearly stated:"The [draft] investment underscores Bettcher can no longer use the excuse of lack of talent."

Or are you saying Tier 3 and 4 free agent signings such as Bethea, Pierre, and Golden all of sudden enhanced the talent on our D to top half NFL levels?

Either way, the actual point, the one that you and he are missing, is that our talent (read: ability) level on D was simply not substantially improved so as to see material improvement this year. We have bottom half ability at all three levels on D. We do not have established pass rushers, our cornerback situation is basically one vet and bunch of rookies, and then we have our linebackers, that beacon of light. Yes, our DT's do look pretty good.

I'll further add that this entire premise is based on the shaky foundation of equating talent with ability. If you put together a team entirely of 2019 first round draft picks they'd probably have the most talent of any NFL team - but they certainly won't be the team in 2019 with the ability to have the most success. So let's make sure we're precise about what we're talking about and avoid playing games with the meaning of the word "talent".




You don't have to ask BlueLou what I meant. He has it right. It isn't about the singular investment from this year's draft. Bettcher has endorsed the defensive drafts (2018 Draft, 2018 Supplemental, 2019 Draft). He has brought in his veteran players that are familiar with his scheme. Setting expectations as middle of the pack defense (32 teams - line of demarcation is 16) is not unreasonable. If you want to lay the foundation for excuses why a 16th ranked defense is unattainable that is on you. I think any tolerance and acceptance for lesser results is a conditioning response caused by watching losing football for so long.


DD - I think what other posters are objecting to is your insinuation that Bettcher is making excuses for the play of the defense. The defense lacks talent. That was the case before he got here and it was still the case last year. We all know that.

I thought we were pretty lucky to get Bettcher as a proven DC. We will see what happens this year and we all want to see improvement, but there are still a lot of question marks on D and we need to be reasonable.

I donít think anyone has been making excuses for Bettcher and I donít think anyone intends to this year, but you canít just look at numbers and stats at the end of each year and decide whether or not your coach should be fired. Understanding the root cause for performance (or lack there of) - which is not the same as making excuses - is critical to making the right coaching and personnel decisions.
A franchise QB is not rare  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 6/19/2019 9:19 am : link
Just positionally valuable.

Rarest is the two gapping NT like Lawrence, and just below the 4-3 DE who can stop the run and get pressure without his body breaking down and a stonewalling LT.

LT started the arms race of countering a freakish ER with a more freakish LT.
A lot of talk about rookies on defense.  
Klaatu : 6/19/2019 9:27 am : link
But realistically we're looking at only two starting - Lawrence and Baker, both 1st Round draft picks. If Julian Love beats out Grant Haley, then it's three, but I wouldn't bet on that just yet.
I think two starting  
BSIMatt : 6/19/2019 12:10 pm : link
but I do think Ximines will be in pass rush rotation, at least to the level Carter was a year ago. That might not seem too impactful but given how thin we are at OLB I think he might be an underrated contributor(Carter was 2nd on team in TFL(7), 2nd in QB Hits(10) and third in sacks(4) despite only playing 40% of defensive snaps).

I think Lawrence is going to open eyes, I feel like outsiders are looking at him as a younger run stuffing NT, and he's not that. He's not even starting at NT in base, he's playing end, and they are moving him all across the formation(3T,0T,5T,4T). The Giants want for him to have an impact in their pass rush, it's not just lip service for passing on an edge rusher.
I'm not going to negatively judge  
Sneakers O'toole : 6/19/2019 12:18 pm : link
results too harshly until 2020 and beyond. This team is still in flux. The reclamation project is ongoing.

This was a severly broken roster, bith sides of the ball. Ir is being fundamentally reshaped. That takes more than a year.

This team may compete if things well from the gate. But if not, calling for heads is premature IMO short of something major.
on both sides of the ball  
Sneakers O'toole : 6/19/2019 12:19 pm : link
.
The other point on Bettcher  
BSIMatt : 6/19/2019 12:23 pm : link
is that he really wasn't able to run his defense last year, at least not what he ran in Arizona. He had to dial it back and run more zone than what he had ever run, and blitz far less. His defense ranked top 10 in blitz percentage every year in Arizona, the Giants were 22nd in that category last year. They have more press corners this year, they have two safeties that are exceptional blitzers...imo this is the first season you will see what Bettchers defense is all about, health permitting.
RE: A lot of talk about rookies on defense.  
BlueLou'sBack : 6/19/2019 12:43 pm : link
In comment 14476496 Klaatu said:
Quote:
But realistically we're looking at only two starting - Lawrence and Baker, both 1st Round draft picks. If Julian Love beats out Grant Haley, then it's three, but I wouldn't bet on that just yet.


That's a very important point people seem to miss. Although, to be fair, that 2 probably becomes 4 in sub packages calling for a lot of DBs on the field and quite possibly the X man as well, and if you count Beal as a "rookie." Can see Baker, Beal, Love and Ximines all having roles on passing downs by mid-season.

I suppose we want Carter and M. Golden to really strike hot and keep Xman on the bench, but you gotta rotate your DEs/ERs a bit too to keep them all fresh for the 4th QTR and late season. It would be nice if Xman turns into a better pass rusher than Kareem Martin has shown to be.
RE: You will all pardon me (I hope) if I view this with some skepticism  
RobCarpenter : 6/19/2019 12:43 pm : link
In comment 14476378 .McL. said:
Quote:
Last year at this time Solder and Omameh had been signed, and Hernandez drafter.

Everybody on this site was enthusiastically optimistic that that OL had been fixed. If you looked at my posts at the time, I said that while getting an better LT, that the line was far from fixed and as it was constituted at that time, it was probably worse than it was the in 2017...

Fast forward 1 year, and I while I believe the line seems to be better on paper, these guys still need to gel. Solder is another year older, Halapio is returning from a gruesome ankle injury (not that I was ever high on him before), and we really don't know how Remmers will turn out. And there is still very little depth... So I still don't consider the OL "fixed".



Getting Zeitler is a huge upgrade for the OL that you didn't mention.

Also, let's not forget that Flowers was the starting RT at the beginning of last season. Remmers is a big improvement from that...
RE: The other point on Bettcher  
BlueLou'sBack : 6/19/2019 12:49 pm : link
In comment 14476712 BSIMatt said:
Quote:
is that he really wasn't able to run his defense last year, at least not what he ran in Arizona. He had to dial it back and run more zone than what he had ever run, and blitz far less. His defense ranked top 10 in blitz percentage every year in Arizona, the Giants were 22nd in that category last year. They have more press corners this year, they have two safeties that are exceptional blitzers...imo this is the first season you will see what Bettchers defense is all about, health permitting.


Matt you and I are in sync a lot lately with what we see, hope for and even expect.

Yes, the fact that the personnel changes should now add up to Bettch running "his D" can really catch a lot of people - fans and media types both - by surprise. Hopefully, it catches our opposition by surprise too and there are enough serious vets (basically Bethea and Ogletree) to coordinate Bettch's vision on the field.

Maybe it's more a long shot than I am admitting at this point...
Just a minor nitpick in the OP  
Gatorade Dunk : 6/19/2019 1:11 pm : link
I think you're using future year draft pick value backwards for Beal. The Giants used a supplemental 3rd on him, which remains a 3rd because it would have been their 3rd this past draft. The trade value of that 2019 3rd round pick back in 2018 would have been a 2018 4th, not a 2nd.
RE: Just a minor nitpick in the OP  
BlueLou'sBack : 6/19/2019 1:26 pm : link
In comment 14476768 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
I think you're using future year draft pick value backwards for Beal. The Giants used a supplemental 3rd on him, which remains a 3rd because it would have been their 3rd this past draft. The trade value of that 2019 3rd round pick back in 2018 would have been a 2018 4th, not a 2nd.



If you check my accounting closely, you will see that I only "mention" Beal as a 2nd round value. I account him as a 3rd round 2019 draft pick - quite clearly. The 2nd round pick used for a CB is part of the 2nd, 4th, and 5th rounders used to trade back up into the 1st to select Baker. And I don't do both together - ie count Baker as a 1st + 2nd + 4th + 5th, it's either one or the other way of looking at his cost, in two different posts I made above.
RE: RE: Just a minor nitpick in the OP  
Gatorade Dunk : 6/19/2019 3:33 pm : link
In comment 14476784 BlueLou'sBack said:
Quote:
In comment 14476768 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


I think you're using future year draft pick value backwards for Beal. The Giants used a supplemental 3rd on him, which remains a 3rd because it would have been their 3rd this past draft. The trade value of that 2019 3rd round pick back in 2018 would have been a 2018 4th, not a 2nd.




If you check my accounting closely, you will see that I only "mention" Beal as a 2nd round value. I account him as a 3rd round 2019 draft pick - quite clearly. The 2nd round pick used for a CB is part of the 2nd, 4th, and 5th rounders used to trade back up into the 1st to select Baker. And I don't do both together - ie count Baker as a 1st + 2nd + 4th + 5th, it's either one or the other way of looking at his cost, in two different posts I made above.

Yeah, I know what you said, and as I said, it's a minor nitpick. But you said "at the value of a #2 since used a year early" which is inaccurate. It would be the value of a 2018 #4 because it used a 2019 pick a year early, at least to the extent that you can translate the trade value of a draft pick in the current year vs. the subsequent year.
DG mentioned that defense was his main draft target in this draft  
TMS : 6/19/2019 3:38 pm : link
and think he meant that, but his team saw DA as the real deal and changed the game plan. If we did not go QB this year we would have been pressured to go next year for sure. A lot cheaper this year. Lets hope he turns out to be the real deal. If so, this draft could turn out to be tremendous.
GD - gotcha, yes I was using the future value backwards,  
BlueLou'sBack : 6/19/2019 3:51 pm : link
because that's the way DG cited it, IIRC. IE He said spent a 2019 3rd rounder for Beal in the 2018 supplemental draft because they viewed Beal as a 2nd round value in 2019.

Trying to look at the investment value through DG's eyes.
RE: DG mentioned that defense was his main draft target in this draft  
Gatorade Dunk : 6/19/2019 4:42 pm : link
In comment 14477021 TMS said:
Quote:
and think he meant that, but his team saw DA as the real deal and changed the game plan. If we did not go QB this year we would have been pressured to go next year for sure. A lot cheaper this year. Lets hope he turns out to be the real deal. If so, this draft could turn out to be tremendous.

Who is DA? The Giants drafted three guys in the first round this year, all of whom have D as a first initial, and none with the initials DA.
RE: RE: DG mentioned that defense was his main draft target in this draft  
TMS : 6/19/2019 11:48 pm : link
In comment 14477139 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 14477021 TMS said:


Quote:


and think he meant that, but his team saw DA as the real deal and changed the game plan. If we did not go QB this year we would have been pressured to go next year for sure. A lot cheaper this year. Lets hope he turns out to be the real deal. If so, this draft could turn out to be tremendous.


Who is DA? The Giants drafted three guys in the first round this year, all of whom have D as a first initial, and none with the initials DA.
. Got me should have been DJ. Too much vodka can do that.
RE: RE: RE: DG mentioned that defense was his main draft target in this draft  
Gatorade Dunk : 6/20/2019 4:13 pm : link
In comment 14477462 TMS said:
Quote:
In comment 14477139 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 14477021 TMS said:


Quote:


and think he meant that, but his team saw DA as the real deal and changed the game plan. If we did not go QB this year we would have been pressured to go next year for sure. A lot cheaper this year. Lets hope he turns out to be the real deal. If so, this draft could turn out to be tremendous.


Who is DA? The Giants drafted three guys in the first round this year, all of whom have D as a first initial, and none with the initials DA.

. Got me should have been DJ. Too much vodka can do that.

At 3:38pm on a Wednesday? Aggressive.
I like it -  
short lease : 6/20/2019 5:23 pm : link

If you throw enough players against the wall - a few have to stick?

re josh norman  
msh : 6/21/2019 3:56 am : link
i think the redskins overpaid norman and if you watched DG at all you would understand his number 1 mantra is value he didnt think norman was worth the value at the contract his agent was demanding and recinded his tender

it was a similar situation with collins DG didnt think a box safety with limited coverage skills was worth the contract he was looking for and had the offer for peppers who they think will be better in coverage for a far lower contract so his value was better waiting in the wings

he probably should have tagged him and got a trade out of the redskins for him who seamed desperate to sign him anyway but he figures on the comp. pick he will get for letting him leave particularly after the monster overpayment by the skins will take care of that

if you watch his offseason pickups they are all vets that shouldnt damage his comp pick and that was his aim in this you might not agree with his choices but unlike the headlines this offseason he has a plan you might not agree with it but its there
Pages: 1 2 <<Prev | Show All |
Back to the Corner