MLB has given the Rays permission to explore becoming a 2 city franchise. They'd play their early season games in Tampa and the later ones in Montreal. Very bizarre. Link - ( New Window )
That article you linked has some glaring factual errors. The Expos averaged 22K in 1994, not 24K, and attendance did plummet by 10K, it dropped by 4K to 18K per game. Furthermore, it's not really true that the Expos were completely stripped bare Florida Marlins-style from 1994 to 1995. Seven of the eight position starters from 1994 were there in 1995. Yes, the one who was gone was a big one, Larry Walker, but their decline year to year also had a lot to do with guys like Wil Cordero and Moises Alou slumping big time after big seasons in 1994. It's a huge leap to talk about them as if they were a budding dynasty, particularly since the team that did end up become a dynasty was only a few games back of their record in 1994.
No one argues that Jeffrey Loria wasn't a disaster. However, the reason he was able to buy the team in the first place is because the franchise was already a wreck, saddled with weak attendance and a dump of a stadium that they had been unsuccessful in replacing.
RE: If the strike killed them, why did it barely affect attendance? Â
You want to argue that trading Pedro as the beginning of the end, that's fine, but that trade was three years after the strike. Even in 1994 their attendance wasn't great.
Also, the 1994 Expos have become almost an urban legend. Yes, they had the best record at the time of the strike, but there were still 48 games to play. They might have won a title, and they might have gotten swept in the NLDS. The notion that the franchise would have magically taken a completely different path if not for the strike is silly. Maybe you could say that it hastened their demise, but pretending that there weren't major underlying issues that had nothing to do with the strike is wrong.
You're committing malpractice with numbers. I remember that was of baseball well. I lived five years in Montreal on the 80s. My best friend was a massive Expos fan and I went to countless games at the Big O. The 94 team was a great team. They were clearly the best team in baseball and had a strong shot at winning the world series. If you don't think winning a title would have helped the fortunes of that team I don't know what to tell you.
RE: MLB probably ought to either contract or move teams abroad. Â
Because they were a few games better than the Yankees with 48 games remaining in the season, with a record that was 4 games better than their pythag and a lineup that was full of holes aside from Walker and Alou?
You apparently have an inability to be impartial about this due to your affinity for the team, and thus have chosen to live in fantasy land and pretend that everything would have been just peachy for the Expos if the strike hadn't happened. Reality doesn't reflect this.
Maybe they should address the shithole of a park in the one city they play in already before they worry about playing in two separate places where no one will care about them.
Because they were a few games better than the Yankees with 48 games remaining in the season, with a record that was 4 games better than their pythag and a lineup that was full of holes aside from Walker and Alou?
You apparently have an inability to be impartial about this due to your affinity for the team, and thus have chosen to live in fantasy land and pretend that everything would have been just peachy for the Expos if the strike hadn't happened. Reality doesn't reflect this.
They led the national league by six games with almost two months to play. And if you think they only had Walker and Alou and a bunch of holes you are completely ignorant. They dominated the national league in run differential. Stick to football.
That would definitely be something, one franchise having the two worst stadiums in major league baseball.
Land in the Peel basin at the edge of the downtown has apparently been given the green light for a stadium should the city get a team back. (the linked article is an older one just to show the area)
There is nothing official but there are numerous sources that have been talking about it for the last month.
C - Darren Fletcher, .260/.314/.435, 92 OPS+
1B - Cliff Floyd, .281/.332/.398, 89
2B - Mike Lansing, .266/.328/.368, 81
SS - Wil Cordero, .294/.363/.489, 119
3B - Sean Berry, .278/.347/.453, 106
LF - Moises Alou, .339/.397/.592, 153
CF - Marquis Grissom, .288/.344/.427, 99
RF - Larry Walker, 151
So, that's two outstanding bats in Walker and Alou. Cordero was having a very good year but was a pretty mediocre player - a nonzero chance his numbers would have fallen off later in the year. The rest of the lineup was average to slightly below average.
Good lineup. Hardly a great lineup. For comparison's sake, here was the Yankees lineup that year:
C - Mike Stanley, .300/.384/.545
1B - Don Mattingly, .304/.397/411
2B - Pat Kelly, .280/.330/.399
SS - Mike Gallego, .239/.327/.359
3B - Wade Boggs, .342/.433/.489
LF - Luis Polonia, .311/.383/.414
CF - Bernie Williams, .289/.384/.453
RF - Paul O'Neill, .359/.460/.603, 177
DH - Danny Tartabull, .256/.338/.439
And there was a good power bat on the bench too in Jim Leyritz (.265/.365/.518). A clearly superior lineup.
Yes, Montreal had better pitching, but let's not act as if they had a staff of aces other than Pedro, who was only 22 and wasn't yet THE Pedro. Ken Hill, Jeff Fassero, Butch Henry....a collection of OK pitchers having career years. Not exactly a terrifying group.
Anyway, the point is that Montreal was a very good team but hardly some unstoppable juggernaut.
what the Expos would have done in the strike season, they were a floundering franchise for years.
The team with the best record in the National League was still struggling to get fans to the park.
Hell, there are much better options than Montreal today. Birmingham, Oklahoma City, Portland, Omaha, Nashville, Charlotte or Louisville would all be better choices. Now, there would have to be realignment of those minor league teams, but Montreal was never a good baseball town. In fact, their best years were still at or below the MLB average.
I’m pretty sure this idea will be kiboshed. Players coaches etc will need to find homes in two cities it creates tax and residency headaches , fans will not be as engaged since they are rooting for a foreign unrelated city. Likely just a pressure tactic to get local government in TB to cough up more money for a new stadium
There is a rabid but relatively small fan base in Montreal.
what the Expos would have done in the strike season, they were a floundering franchise for years.
The team with the best record in the National League was still struggling to get fans to the park.
Hell, there are much better options than Montreal today. Birmingham, Oklahoma City, Portland, Omaha, Nashville, Charlotte or Louisville would all be better choices. Now, there would have to be realignment of those minor league teams, but Montreal was never a good baseball town. In fact, their best years were still at or below the MLB average.
Ridiculous. Nearly all those markets are a third of the size of Montreal.
size doesn't matter if people don't attend the games. All of those cities have excellent attendance for current teams.
The Expos are the NHL equivalent of the Atlanta Flames.
Sure ok market size doesn't matter. Hey answer this, how are those markets doing in hockey compared to Montreal? How's Carolina doing? Yea give an mlb team to Louisville and you'll have another team looking to move in 12 yrs. You say the Expos were league average attendance like that's a bad thing. If the Ray's were league average we wouldn't be having this conversation.
And the market continues to grow with suntrust — sorry ‘truist’ (such a stupid name) - coming to town and several other large companies on the way. They should definitely get a team.
I think this proposal makes some sense in that Tampa is just looking to maximize its revenues while it has to wait another 9 years to get out of its lease. I don’t see any point in tampa or the rays agreeing to a new stadium - the Florida market will not support summer baseball. Just wasted tax dollars. In the meantime they should just use the Yankees spring training complex - it’s very well done, maybe build a few more seats.
I really like how KC is playing a few games in Omaha now too. Makes a lot of sense - the mid market towns that don’t draw well for 81 games should split more of their season up. I assume at some point the a’s will play games in Vegas.
Separate topic to the poster above who said there were even fewer Rays fans at YS this week than twins/a’s/royals — I wouldn’t lump twins with others. Minnesota is a terrific sports town and across all sports.
Makes sense. Take two fanbases who don't give half a shit Â
Montreal is a fine baseball town, few teams drew well in those awful multi purpose stadiums, and the lack of competitive balance created apathy. They knew they were a farm team.
By far the most deserving town.
Sure ok market size doesn't matter. Hey answer this, how are those markets doing in hockey compared to Montreal? How's Carolina doing? Yea give an mlb team to Louisville and you'll have another team looking to move in 12 yrs. You say the Expos were league average attendance like that's a bad thing. If the Ray's were league average we wouldn't be having this conversation.
Market size does matter - if people are actually invested. Otherwise, it really doesn't matter. To your point, those markets don't do great in hockey and guess what - Montreal doesn't do great in baseball.
As for the Expos being the "league average", I said that even in their best years they still were only at average. Most years they were towards the bottom.
Let me ask - why is there a confidence it will be better this time around? The stadium still sucks and there is no allegiance, especially if a team splits time.
Sure ok market size doesn't matter. Hey answer this, how are those markets doing in hockey compared to Montreal? How's Carolina doing? Yea give an mlb team to Louisville and you'll have another team looking to move in 12 yrs. You say the Expos were league average attendance like that's a bad thing. If the Ray's were league average we wouldn't be having this conversation.
Market size does matter - if people are actually invested. Otherwise, it really doesn't matter. To your point, those markets don't do great in hockey and guess what - Montreal doesn't do great in baseball.
As for the Expos being the "league average", I said that even in their best years they still were only at average. Most years they were towards the bottom.
Let me ask - why is there a confidence it will be better this time around? The stadium still sucks and there is no allegiance, especially if a team splits time.
Sure it can work there. It's a top 20 market with a tradition of baseball. Everything went south in the last eight years with the Expos. It's not as simple as attendence figures. Prior to that they had decent support. In the last eight years the press and fans became convinced the fix was in to kill the team and there was widespread anti-mlb sentiment and a movement not to support the product. You can read better summaries online than I am giving here.
I must be missing something with this because if they can play half their games away from the shithole in St. Pete and not incur any financial penalties, why can't they play all of them away from there and just relocate altogether?
I know the lease they have now is prohibitive as far as relocating goes but why wouldn't playing half a season away from there also be a problem as far as their current lease goes?
I think it is an idea that is not really well thought out. Probably more to try and push St.Petersburg to bow the MLB's new stadium wishes.
My buddies think it is MLB's way of pushing out St. Petersburg to eventually move the team here permanently. Between the new Peel Basin project and the fact that the city has decided that our new island wide light rail system that is being built right now for 2023 will have a major station placed right next to where this supposed new stadium is in the plans to be built. The guys think it is a slam dunk.
I want baseball back but. Honestly this idea is stupid. The team is competitive right now. However being competitive in baseball tends to be tied to money. If the people in Florida know that they will not be seeing their team when playoff time rolls around. I don't see how they would want to spend money on this team. That is a lot of lost revenue.
On the other end. The Big O is a giant toilet in a terrible inaccessible area. People hate going there. I highly doubt that the stadium will sell out on a consistent basis for a part time team.
Chances are attendance with be directly tied to whoever the team is playing. More lost revenue. Montreal saw this in the past with the last years of the Expos. Lost revenue = team not being good for very long.
If the team sucks. I can guarantee you that nobody will go watch them here in Montreal. This city just will not support losers. Well except for the Habs.
They only way this will work here is to sign the deal for the Peel stadium and start work on it. ASAP. Then announce that the team is in fact moving here and will only be in the Big O for a couple of seasons until the new stadium is done.
That way there will be a couple of years of competitive baseball that will have decent attendance and they will be Montreal's team. Once the downtown stadium opens then things can take off. Decent team, new stadium on the water very close to downtown, new transit system to get in and out of the area.
Tampa wouldn't get anyone to watch them in the first half of the season anyway and Montreal needs to know that the team will be theirs in the long term for there to be fan buy-in north of the border...
Just move them to Montreal and be done with it. It'll work out better than it did the last time because they'll have a Canadian rivalry with Toronto and that will pack the house for 9 home games, along with games against the Yankees and Red Sox. I also think Montreal would draw better if their team is competitive than Tampa currently is
RE: Some buddies had a debate about this yesterday Â
I think it is an idea that is not really well thought out. Probably more to try and push St.Petersburg to bow the MLB's new stadium wishes.
My buddies think it is MLB's way of pushing out St. Petersburg to eventually move the team here permanently. Between the new Peel Basin project and the fact that the city has decided that our new island wide light rail system that is being built right now for 2023 will have a major station placed right next to where this supposed new stadium is in the plans to be built. The guys think it is a slam dunk.
I want baseball back but. Honestly this idea is stupid. The team is competitive right now. However being competitive in baseball tends to be tied to money. If the people in Florida know that they will not be seeing their team when playoff time rolls around. I don't see how they would want to spend money on this team. That is a lot of lost revenue.
On the other end. The Big O is a giant toilet in a terrible inaccessible area. People hate going there. I highly doubt that the stadium will sell out on a consistent basis for a part time team.
Chances are attendance with be directly tied to whoever the team is playing. More lost revenue. Montreal saw this in the past with the last years of the Expos. Lost revenue = team not being good for very long.
If the team sucks. I can guarantee you that nobody will go watch them here in Montreal. This city just will not support losers. Well except for the Habs.
They only way this will work here is to sign the deal for the Peel stadium and start work on it. ASAP. Then announce that the team is in fact moving here and will only be in the Big O for a couple of seasons until the new stadium is done.
That way there will be a couple of years of competitive baseball that will have decent attendance and they will be Montreal's team. Once the downtown stadium opens then things can take off. Decent team, new stadium on the water very close to downtown, new transit system to get in and out of the area.
The Big O isn't that inaccessible as Montreal's public transportation system is good but it's nowhere near downtown and Montreal would work better with a baseball team within walking distance to Centre Bell and the Canadiens
They were a good team but beating the Braves in the playoffs would have been a huge upset, regardless of the standings. I think that world series would have been Yankees-Braves
I don't know anything about the mayor of St. Petersburg, Â
I think it is an idea that is not really well thought out. Probably more to try and push St.Petersburg to bow the MLB's new stadium wishes.
My buddies think it is MLB's way of pushing out St. Petersburg to eventually move the team here permanently. Between the new Peel Basin project and the fact that the city has decided that our new island wide light rail system that is being built right now for 2023 will have a major station placed right next to where this supposed new stadium is in the plans to be built. The guys think it is a slam dunk.
I want baseball back but. Honestly this idea is stupid. The team is competitive right now. However being competitive in baseball tends to be tied to money. If the people in Florida know that they will not be seeing their team when playoff time rolls around. I don't see how they would want to spend money on this team. That is a lot of lost revenue.
On the other end. The Big O is a giant toilet in a terrible inaccessible area. People hate going there. I highly doubt that the stadium will sell out on a consistent basis for a part time team.
Chances are attendance with be directly tied to whoever the team is playing. More lost revenue. Montreal saw this in the past with the last years of the Expos. Lost revenue = team not being good for very long.
If the team sucks. I can guarantee you that nobody will go watch them here in Montreal. This city just will not support losers. Well except for the Habs.
They only way this will work here is to sign the deal for the Peel stadium and start work on it. ASAP. Then announce that the team is in fact moving here and will only be in the Big O for a couple of seasons until the new stadium is done.
That way there will be a couple of years of competitive baseball that will have decent attendance and they will be Montreal's team. Once the downtown stadium opens then things can take off. Decent team, new stadium on the water very close to downtown, new transit system to get in and out of the area.
The Big O isn't that inaccessible as Montreal's public transportation system is good but it's nowhere near downtown and Montreal would work better with a baseball team within walking distance to Centre Bell and the Canadiens
Yeah... We can agree to disagree.
Our transit system is a shit show at best. Getting the east end from anywhere west of Cote-de-Neiges or north of the city is terrible.
Driving is no better. The parking in the area is essentially non existent that is not even mentioning having to take the Met or Notre Dame.
They were a good team but beating the Braves in the playoffs would have been a huge upset, regardless of the standings. I think that world series would have been Yankees-Braves
Sorry. They were better than the Braves that year. The Expos were loaded and had the best pitching in the league by far that season. They won 94 games the season before, they were young, they were a team that was having their big season. Sure the Braves could have won a short series but the Spos would have been favored.
Maddux ERA was 1.56 and nobody had an ERA above 4.11
Pretty hard to make a case that the Expos pitching was the best by far, or that they would have easily beat the Braves, especially with Maddux on the mound,
RE: RE: As for the 1994 Expos getting to the world series Â
They were a good team but beating the Braves in the playoffs would have been a huge upset, regardless of the standings. I think that world series would have been Yankees-Braves
Sorry. They were better than the Braves that year. The Expos were loaded and had the best pitching in the league by far that season. They won 94 games the season before, they were young, they were a team that was having their big season. Sure the Braves could have won a short series but the Spos would have been favored.
They would have been outpitched by Maddux, Glavine and Smoltz in a 7 game series. Pedro wasn't Pedro yet and their other starters were OK pitchers having career years
1- a new line drawn that won't suffocate the Expos tv and media rights through Canada (fuck you BlueJays - this killed the Expos last time).
2 - a downtown stadium.
There remains a passion for baseball in Montreal (don't forget Vancouver too). They just didn't have support from the Provincial government last time and without a clear path to being able to afford to to it properly, they won't get the investors and fans they need.
I want baseball in Portland and Montreal, whether they need to move from Oakland and Tampa or not.
In 1993, when the Expos were climbing to the top, they were 27th in attendance.
In the epic year of 1994 when they would've destroyed any team in their path, Montreal turned out to make them 21st in attendance.
They didn't know what they were missing!!
Did you ever take in a game at the Olympic Stadium? Out of the way in the least appealing part of town and easily the worst venue i've ever attended for baseball (and I saw about 50 games there).
the Rays were all set on a new stadium in Ybor City for 2022 with construction starting in 2020 .What happened to that ?
Yeah that is what I thought to. Supposed to be a huge piece in that massive Waterfront project that is being funded by Bill Gates and some other Billionaire I can't remember.
In 1993, when the Expos were climbing to the top, they were 27th in attendance.
In the epic year of 1994 when they would've destroyed any team in their path, Montreal turned out to make them 21st in attendance.
They didn't know what they were missing!!
Did you ever take in a game at the Olympic Stadium? Out of the way in the least appealing part of town and easily the worst venue i've ever attended for baseball (and I saw about 50 games there).
In 1993, when the Expos were climbing to the top, they were 27th in attendance.
In the epic year of 1994 when they would've destroyed any team in their path, Montreal turned out to make them 21st in attendance.
They didn't know what they were missing!!
Did you ever take in a game at the Olympic Stadium? Out of the way in the least appealing part of town and easily the worst venue i've ever attended for baseball (and I saw about 50 games there).
But that's the thing. It was that way for years and it didn't change.
A couple of you are posturing like Montreal came out to support the team - and we have some fanciful tales of 1993 and 1994. My point has been - if the team didn't draw during these awesome years, when was it going to draw?
The stadium is what it was (and still is). Montreal didn't lose the team on a whim - they lost it because of a lack of support and subpar playing conditions.
Hell, I remember driving through streets littered with burning cars in the Bronx en route to a full stadium.
Rays scuttled Ybor stadium because the deal to build it Â
required the Rays to pay more money than they wanted to. The Rays do not draw but they do have a really good TV deal and, as well, get a share of the money from the teams that pay a penalty due to high player salaries. What the Rays want is to have luxury boxes that sell out and, probably think Tampa businesses can do that. The Rays, in my opinion, don't like to spend money. There is also another matter that affects what is going on with their negotiations with ST. Pete. The Rays have in their current agreement with the city that if they leave the stadium , they will get a share of the money in what will replace the stadium. So the Rays want to leave their present stadium and then make money off doing this. This does not sit well with the Mayor and most others who sit in city government.
The 94 strike crippled baseball in Montreal. The Expos were the best team in baseball that year. Then a Jeff Loria killed it.
That's not supported by Expos attendance figures. Their attendance was well below the NL average for the decade prior to the strike. The last year the Expos exceeded the league average attendance was 1983. Also, their attendance was steady in the first few years after the strike. 22K per game in 1994, 18K in 1995, 19K in 1996, 18K in 1997. 1998 is when they went into the death spiral, dropping to 9K.
It's exactly what happened. 1998 just happens to be the midpoint and the year they dealt the best pitcher in baseball history for a bag of balls. If the spos had won in 94 they never would have left.
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/118868-how-jeffrey-loria-destroyed-the-montreal-exposnationals Loria destroyed the Expos - ( New Window )
They can't. There is nowhere in Tampa and they burned their bridges in St. Pete.
As for Montreal, how can anyone argue it was a good baseball town? Â
When the team was consistently good, they were barely average in attendance. They were mostly in the bottom third of the league. The size of the market and that market's attendance for hockey are both irrelevant. There is a long history of the town not giving a shit about baseball. Now, you want to throw in splitting time with another city and keep the same shitty stadium that was no good 20 years ago? How would anyone expect this to work?
I don't even think a new stadium in St. Pete will work. But, even that would be world's better than splitting towns. And any one of those cities FatMan mentioned would be better. They draw more for minor league games.
LOL, what incentive would Florida residents have to support them? Â
If they make the playoffs, the games would be in Montreal. So you're a Rays fan who goes to the early season games, but during the stretch run, your team is thousands of miles away.
The Rays cannot explore playing any Major League Baseball games in Montreal or anywhere else for that matter prior to 2028, without reaching a formal memorandum of understanding with the City of St. Petersburg.
Ultimately, such a decision is up to me. And I have no intention of bringing this latest idea to our city council. In fact, I believe this is getting a bit silly.
It’s time they move along.
No one argues that Jeffrey Loria wasn't a disaster. However, the reason he was able to buy the team in the first place is because the franchise was already a wreck, saddled with weak attendance and a dump of a stadium that they had been unsuccessful in replacing.
Also, the 1994 Expos have become almost an urban legend. Yes, they had the best record at the time of the strike, but there were still 48 games to play. They might have won a title, and they might have gotten swept in the NLDS. The notion that the franchise would have magically taken a completely different path if not for the strike is silly. Maybe you could say that it hastened their demise, but pretending that there weren't major underlying issues that had nothing to do with the strike is wrong.
You're committing malpractice with numbers. I remember that was of baseball well. I lived five years in Montreal on the 80s. My best friend was a massive Expos fan and I went to countless games at the Big O. The 94 team was a great team. They were clearly the best team in baseball and had a strong shot at winning the world series. If you don't think winning a title would have helped the fortunes of that team I don't know what to tell you.
Can't see a team moving there with most of Mexico being controlled by cartels.
You apparently have an inability to be impartial about this due to your affinity for the team, and thus have chosen to live in fantasy land and pretend that everything would have been just peachy for the Expos if the strike hadn't happened. Reality doesn't reflect this.
This get rid of that dump.
You apparently have an inability to be impartial about this due to your affinity for the team, and thus have chosen to live in fantasy land and pretend that everything would have been just peachy for the Expos if the strike hadn't happened. Reality doesn't reflect this.
They led the national league by six games with almost two months to play. And if you think they only had Walker and Alou and a bunch of holes you are completely ignorant. They dominated the national league in run differential. Stick to football.
Land in the Peel basin at the edge of the downtown has apparently been given the green light for a stadium should the city get a team back. (the linked article is an older one just to show the area)
There is nothing official but there are numerous sources that have been talking about it for the last month.
Peel Basin - ( New Window )
1B - Cliff Floyd, .281/.332/.398, 89
2B - Mike Lansing, .266/.328/.368, 81
SS - Wil Cordero, .294/.363/.489, 119
3B - Sean Berry, .278/.347/.453, 106
LF - Moises Alou, .339/.397/.592, 153
CF - Marquis Grissom, .288/.344/.427, 99
RF - Larry Walker, 151
So, that's two outstanding bats in Walker and Alou. Cordero was having a very good year but was a pretty mediocre player - a nonzero chance his numbers would have fallen off later in the year. The rest of the lineup was average to slightly below average.
Good lineup. Hardly a great lineup. For comparison's sake, here was the Yankees lineup that year:
C - Mike Stanley, .300/.384/.545
1B - Don Mattingly, .304/.397/411
2B - Pat Kelly, .280/.330/.399
SS - Mike Gallego, .239/.327/.359
3B - Wade Boggs, .342/.433/.489
LF - Luis Polonia, .311/.383/.414
CF - Bernie Williams, .289/.384/.453
RF - Paul O'Neill, .359/.460/.603, 177
DH - Danny Tartabull, .256/.338/.439
And there was a good power bat on the bench too in Jim Leyritz (.265/.365/.518). A clearly superior lineup.
Yes, Montreal had better pitching, but let's not act as if they had a staff of aces other than Pedro, who was only 22 and wasn't yet THE Pedro. Ken Hill, Jeff Fassero, Butch Henry....a collection of OK pitchers having career years. Not exactly a terrifying group.
Anyway, the point is that Montreal was a very good team but hardly some unstoppable juggernaut.
The team with the best record in the National League was still struggling to get fans to the park.
Hell, there are much better options than Montreal today. Birmingham, Oklahoma City, Portland, Omaha, Nashville, Charlotte or Louisville would all be better choices. Now, there would have to be realignment of those minor league teams, but Montreal was never a good baseball town. In fact, their best years were still at or below the MLB average.
There is a rabid but relatively small fan base in Montreal.
The team with the best record in the National League was still struggling to get fans to the park.
Hell, there are much better options than Montreal today. Birmingham, Oklahoma City, Portland, Omaha, Nashville, Charlotte or Louisville would all be better choices. Now, there would have to be realignment of those minor league teams, but Montreal was never a good baseball town. In fact, their best years were still at or below the MLB average.
Ridiculous. Nearly all those markets are a third of the size of Montreal.
The Expos are the NHL equivalent of the Atlanta Flames.
The Expos are the NHL equivalent of the Atlanta Flames.
Sure ok market size doesn't matter. Hey answer this, how are those markets doing in hockey compared to Montreal? How's Carolina doing? Yea give an mlb team to Louisville and you'll have another team looking to move in 12 yrs. You say the Expos were league average attendance like that's a bad thing. If the Ray's were league average we wouldn't be having this conversation.
I think this proposal makes some sense in that Tampa is just looking to maximize its revenues while it has to wait another 9 years to get out of its lease. I don’t see any point in tampa or the rays agreeing to a new stadium - the Florida market will not support summer baseball. Just wasted tax dollars. In the meantime they should just use the Yankees spring training complex - it’s very well done, maybe build a few more seats.
I really like how KC is playing a few games in Omaha now too. Makes a lot of sense - the mid market towns that don’t draw well for 81 games should split more of their season up. I assume at some point the a’s will play games in Vegas.
Separate topic to the poster above who said there were even fewer Rays fans at YS this week than twins/a’s/royals — I wouldn’t lump twins with others. Minnesota is a terrific sports town and across all sports.
It’s time they move along.
I thought Tampa wanted them, but are balking at picking up the full stadium costs.
By far the most deserving town.
Why? Cause you want to visit those cities? Because they are far smaller than Montreal.
Market size does matter - if people are actually invested. Otherwise, it really doesn't matter. To your point, those markets don't do great in hockey and guess what - Montreal doesn't do great in baseball.
As for the Expos being the "league average", I said that even in their best years they still were only at average. Most years they were towards the bottom.
Let me ask - why is there a confidence it will be better this time around? The stadium still sucks and there is no allegiance, especially if a team splits time.
Quote:
Sure ok market size doesn't matter. Hey answer this, how are those markets doing in hockey compared to Montreal? How's Carolina doing? Yea give an mlb team to Louisville and you'll have another team looking to move in 12 yrs. You say the Expos were league average attendance like that's a bad thing. If the Ray's were league average we wouldn't be having this conversation.
Market size does matter - if people are actually invested. Otherwise, it really doesn't matter. To your point, those markets don't do great in hockey and guess what - Montreal doesn't do great in baseball.
As for the Expos being the "league average", I said that even in their best years they still were only at average. Most years they were towards the bottom.
Let me ask - why is there a confidence it will be better this time around? The stadium still sucks and there is no allegiance, especially if a team splits time.
Sure it can work there. It's a top 20 market with a tradition of baseball. Everything went south in the last eight years with the Expos. It's not as simple as attendence figures. Prior to that they had decent support. In the last eight years the press and fans became convinced the fix was in to kill the team and there was widespread anti-mlb sentiment and a movement not to support the product. You can read better summaries online than I am giving here.
I know the lease they have now is prohibitive as far as relocating goes but why wouldn't playing half a season away from there also be a problem as far as their current lease goes?
My buddies think it is MLB's way of pushing out St. Petersburg to eventually move the team here permanently. Between the new Peel Basin project and the fact that the city has decided that our new island wide light rail system that is being built right now for 2023 will have a major station placed right next to where this supposed new stadium is in the plans to be built. The guys think it is a slam dunk.
I want baseball back but. Honestly this idea is stupid. The team is competitive right now. However being competitive in baseball tends to be tied to money. If the people in Florida know that they will not be seeing their team when playoff time rolls around. I don't see how they would want to spend money on this team. That is a lot of lost revenue.
On the other end. The Big O is a giant toilet in a terrible inaccessible area. People hate going there. I highly doubt that the stadium will sell out on a consistent basis for a part time team.
Chances are attendance with be directly tied to whoever the team is playing. More lost revenue. Montreal saw this in the past with the last years of the Expos. Lost revenue = team not being good for very long.
If the team sucks. I can guarantee you that nobody will go watch them here in Montreal. This city just will not support losers. Well except for the Habs.
They only way this will work here is to sign the deal for the Peel stadium and start work on it. ASAP. Then announce that the team is in fact moving here and will only be in the Big O for a couple of seasons until the new stadium is done.
That way there will be a couple of years of competitive baseball that will have decent attendance and they will be Montreal's team. Once the downtown stadium opens then things can take off. Decent team, new stadium on the water very close to downtown, new transit system to get in and out of the area.
Just move them to Montreal and be done with it. It'll work out better than it did the last time because they'll have a Canadian rivalry with Toronto and that will pack the house for 9 home games, along with games against the Yankees and Red Sox. I also think Montreal would draw better if their team is competitive than Tampa currently is
My buddies think it is MLB's way of pushing out St. Petersburg to eventually move the team here permanently. Between the new Peel Basin project and the fact that the city has decided that our new island wide light rail system that is being built right now for 2023 will have a major station placed right next to where this supposed new stadium is in the plans to be built. The guys think it is a slam dunk.
I want baseball back but. Honestly this idea is stupid. The team is competitive right now. However being competitive in baseball tends to be tied to money. If the people in Florida know that they will not be seeing their team when playoff time rolls around. I don't see how they would want to spend money on this team. That is a lot of lost revenue.
On the other end. The Big O is a giant toilet in a terrible inaccessible area. People hate going there. I highly doubt that the stadium will sell out on a consistent basis for a part time team.
Chances are attendance with be directly tied to whoever the team is playing. More lost revenue. Montreal saw this in the past with the last years of the Expos. Lost revenue = team not being good for very long.
If the team sucks. I can guarantee you that nobody will go watch them here in Montreal. This city just will not support losers. Well except for the Habs.
They only way this will work here is to sign the deal for the Peel stadium and start work on it. ASAP. Then announce that the team is in fact moving here and will only be in the Big O for a couple of seasons until the new stadium is done.
That way there will be a couple of years of competitive baseball that will have decent attendance and they will be Montreal's team. Once the downtown stadium opens then things can take off. Decent team, new stadium on the water very close to downtown, new transit system to get in and out of the area.
The Big O isn't that inaccessible as Montreal's public transportation system is good but it's nowhere near downtown and Montreal would work better with a baseball team within walking distance to Centre Bell and the Canadiens
Portland could make sense but you have to build a domed stadium because the chance of rain is pretty high in April and September/October
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I think it is an idea that is not really well thought out. Probably more to try and push St.Petersburg to bow the MLB's new stadium wishes.
My buddies think it is MLB's way of pushing out St. Petersburg to eventually move the team here permanently. Between the new Peel Basin project and the fact that the city has decided that our new island wide light rail system that is being built right now for 2023 will have a major station placed right next to where this supposed new stadium is in the plans to be built. The guys think it is a slam dunk.
I want baseball back but. Honestly this idea is stupid. The team is competitive right now. However being competitive in baseball tends to be tied to money. If the people in Florida know that they will not be seeing their team when playoff time rolls around. I don't see how they would want to spend money on this team. That is a lot of lost revenue.
On the other end. The Big O is a giant toilet in a terrible inaccessible area. People hate going there. I highly doubt that the stadium will sell out on a consistent basis for a part time team.
Chances are attendance with be directly tied to whoever the team is playing. More lost revenue. Montreal saw this in the past with the last years of the Expos. Lost revenue = team not being good for very long.
If the team sucks. I can guarantee you that nobody will go watch them here in Montreal. This city just will not support losers. Well except for the Habs.
They only way this will work here is to sign the deal for the Peel stadium and start work on it. ASAP. Then announce that the team is in fact moving here and will only be in the Big O for a couple of seasons until the new stadium is done.
That way there will be a couple of years of competitive baseball that will have decent attendance and they will be Montreal's team. Once the downtown stadium opens then things can take off. Decent team, new stadium on the water very close to downtown, new transit system to get in and out of the area.
The Big O isn't that inaccessible as Montreal's public transportation system is good but it's nowhere near downtown and Montreal would work better with a baseball team within walking distance to Centre Bell and the Canadiens
Yeah... We can agree to disagree.
Our transit system is a shit show at best. Getting the east end from anywhere west of Cote-de-Neiges or north of the city is terrible.
Driving is no better. The parking in the area is essentially non existent that is not even mentioning having to take the Met or Notre Dame.
Sorry. They were better than the Braves that year. The Expos were loaded and had the best pitching in the league by far that season. They won 94 games the season before, they were young, they were a team that was having their big season. Sure the Braves could have won a short series but the Spos would have been favored.
In 1993, when the Expos were climbing to the top, they were 27th in attendance.
In the epic year of 1994 when they would've destroyed any team in their path, Montreal turned out to make them 21st in attendance.
They didn't know what they were missing!!
Jeff Fassero
not-yet-great Pedro Martinez
Butch Henry
Kirk Reuter
Wow. I mean, WOW! Dominant.
Maddux
Glavine
Avery
Smoltz
Mercker
Maddux ERA was 1.56 and nobody had an ERA above 4.11
Pretty hard to make a case that the Expos pitching was the best by far, or that they would have easily beat the Braves, especially with Maddux on the mound,
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They were a good team but beating the Braves in the playoffs would have been a huge upset, regardless of the standings. I think that world series would have been Yankees-Braves
Sorry. They were better than the Braves that year. The Expos were loaded and had the best pitching in the league by far that season. They won 94 games the season before, they were young, they were a team that was having their big season. Sure the Braves could have won a short series but the Spos would have been favored.
They would have been outpitched by Maddux, Glavine and Smoltz in a 7 game series. Pedro wasn't Pedro yet and their other starters were OK pitchers having career years
1- a new line drawn that won't suffocate the Expos tv and media rights through Canada (fuck you BlueJays - this killed the Expos last time).
2 - a downtown stadium.
There remains a passion for baseball in Montreal (don't forget Vancouver too). They just didn't have support from the Provincial government last time and without a clear path to being able to afford to to it properly, they won't get the investors and fans they need.
I want baseball in Portland and Montreal, whether they need to move from Oakland and Tampa or not.
In 1993, when the Expos were climbing to the top, they were 27th in attendance.
In the epic year of 1994 when they would've destroyed any team in their path, Montreal turned out to make them 21st in attendance.
They didn't know what they were missing!!
Did you ever take in a game at the Olympic Stadium? Out of the way in the least appealing part of town and easily the worst venue i've ever attended for baseball (and I saw about 50 games there).
Yeah that is what I thought to. Supposed to be a huge piece in that massive Waterfront project that is being funded by Bill Gates and some other Billionaire I can't remember.
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from yesterday,
In 1993, when the Expos were climbing to the top, they were 27th in attendance.
In the epic year of 1994 when they would've destroyed any team in their path, Montreal turned out to make them 21st in attendance.
They didn't know what they were missing!!
Did you ever take in a game at the Olympic Stadium? Out of the way in the least appealing part of town and easily the worst venue i've ever attended for baseball (and I saw about 50 games there).
You just described the situation with the Rays.
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from yesterday,
In 1993, when the Expos were climbing to the top, they were 27th in attendance.
In the epic year of 1994 when they would've destroyed any team in their path, Montreal turned out to make them 21st in attendance.
They didn't know what they were missing!!
Did you ever take in a game at the Olympic Stadium? Out of the way in the least appealing part of town and easily the worst venue i've ever attended for baseball (and I saw about 50 games there).
But that's the thing. It was that way for years and it didn't change.
A couple of you are posturing like Montreal came out to support the team - and we have some fanciful tales of 1993 and 1994. My point has been - if the team didn't draw during these awesome years, when was it going to draw?
The stadium is what it was (and still is). Montreal didn't lose the team on a whim - they lost it because of a lack of support and subpar playing conditions.
Hell, I remember driving through streets littered with burning cars in the Bronx en route to a full stadium.
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In comment 14477933 FranchiseQB said:
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The 94 strike crippled baseball in Montreal. The Expos were the best team in baseball that year. Then a Jeff Loria killed it.
That's not supported by Expos attendance figures. Their attendance was well below the NL average for the decade prior to the strike. The last year the Expos exceeded the league average attendance was 1983. Also, their attendance was steady in the first few years after the strike. 22K per game in 1994, 18K in 1995, 19K in 1996, 18K in 1997. 1998 is when they went into the death spiral, dropping to 9K.
It's exactly what happened. 1998 just happens to be the midpoint and the year they dealt the best pitcher in baseball history for a bag of balls. If the spos had won in 94 they never would have left.
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/118868-how-jeffrey-loria-destroyed-the-montreal-exposnationals Loria destroyed the Expos - ( New Window )
I don't even think a new stadium in St. Pete will work. But, even that would be world's better than splitting towns. And any one of those cities FatMan mentioned would be better. They draw more for minor league games.
Ultimately, such a decision is up to me. And I have no intention of bringing this latest idea to our city council. In fact, I believe this is getting a bit silly.
Mayor Rick Kriseman discusses latest Tampa Bay Rays' stadium situation - ( New Window )