For me it has always been Mike Ditka, Mackey, Winslow, Sr. As the years have gone on however, I now feel Bavaro was the best ALL AROUND TE I have ever seen, albeit his career was shortened with a bad knee.
Saying Bavaro was better is Giants homerism, plain and simple. Try to find intelligent, non-Giants fans who say Bavaro was better. Good luck.
That’s BS. Just because you say it’s homerism doesn’t make it so..No one I’ve ever seen blocked like Bavaro. No exceptions, imo..He was a terrific clutch receiver and was brilliant running the seam. You like Gronk (or whomever) fine, but I simply disagree when you judge the all-around production, as great as Gronk was..
Saying Bavaro was better is Giants homerism, plain and simple. Try to find intelligent, non-Giants fans who say Bavaro was better. Good luck.
That’s BS. Just because you say it’s homerism doesn’t make it so..No one I’ve ever seen blocked like Bavaro. No exceptions, imo..He was a terrific clutch receiver and was brilliant running the seam. You like Gronk (or whomever) fine, but I simply disagree when you judge the all-around production, as great as Gronk was..
Yes, obviously saying something is homerism is an opinion with which you disagree. Therefore, I ask you, please find examples of intelligent, non-Giants fans who think Bavaro is better. If you can't, that would suggest to me that all the Giants fans saying Bavaro is better are being homers.
Here are 3 lists written within the past 5 or so years. Â
1 is from NFL.com, 1 is from SI.com, and the third is from Lineups.com (not sure wtf that is, but it was written in 2019, has 25 listed, and was one of the top Google results). None of these lists even includes Bavaro.
that Witten hasn't gotten more love on this thread. I'd take Gronk over him but he's in the conversation.
'56, calling Bavaro a better tight end than Gronk is the definition of being a homer. Gronk will be a first ballot hall of famer. Bavaro will never get into the hall of fame.
Bavaro was obviously a terrific player, I have only really seen him play via highlights, but you would be hard pressed to find any NFL fan that isn't a Giants fan to say Bavaro was a better TE than Gronk.
Where am I going to find fans who saw Bavaro in his prime 30+ years ago? On here? Sure and we’ll see what they opine. I will NEVER pay any attention to any fan who never saw him play. Never.
Where am I going to find fans who saw Bavaro in his prime 30+ years ago? On here? Sure and we’ll see what they opine. I will NEVER pay any attention to any fan who never saw him play. Never.
How about hall of fame voters who have seen him play?
that Witten hasn't gotten more love on this thread. I'd take Gronk over him but he's in the conversation.
'56, calling Bavaro a better tight end than Gronk is the definition of being a homer. Gronk will be a first ballot hall of famer. Bavaro will never get into the hall of fame.
Bavaro was obviously a terrific player, I have only really seen him play via highlights, but you would be hard pressed to find any NFL fan that isn't a Giants fan to say Bavaro was a better TE than Gronk.
Better ALL AROUND TE. Not to mention we had Simms throwing to Bavaro, not Brady..And Mook, I doubt you ever saw MB play, so your opinion that I’m a homer is laughable
if he's the best ever? The NFL HoF voters didn't elect the best ever at his position? That seems like a glaring omission. Are there other "best ever" at their positions not in the Hall of Fame? Also are you certain those people didn't see him play?
Where am I going to find fans who saw Bavaro in his prime 30+ years ago? On here? Sure and we’ll see what they opine. I will NEVER pay any attention to any fan who never saw him play. Never.
How about hall of fame voters who have seen him play?
Um, Bavaro doesn’t have enough prime years to qualify due to the knee..But during his prime years, I have never seen a better all
around TE than him. NOTHING to do with homerism. Everything to do with what I personally saw
how many times you type all around in capital letters it's not going to make Bavaro a better all around player than Gronk.
You also apparently did not read my post where I said I only saw him play via highlights.
How come the hall of fame voters don't agree with you? A guy who can't get in vs a guy everyone on the planet knows will go in 1st ballot. Can't use the excuse that they didn't see both play.
you were watching through Giant colored glasses all the time?
Gronks career was absolutely shortened by injuries. Yet he will be a 1st ballot hall of famer so please find a different excuse.
It's not a slight against Bavaro to say Gronk is better. People who have watched and covered the sport for decades have not put Bavaro in the hall of fame.
we’ll agree to disagree. I never said he was a HOFer, I said he’s the best I ever saw. Leonard Marshall was arguably the best DE of his era. He will never sniff the HOF, unfortunately..
RE: I thought this thread was going to be an objective discussion Â
It is an objective view. I saw him play. Did you? Gronk was never the hellacious block Bavaro was. Period. He didn’t have Gronk’s receiving skills, I agree but he was high end in that department. The Giants didn’t feature the TE during that time
that pretty much anyone who isn't a Giants fan would disagree with him being the best any of us have ever seen. Bavaro was clearly an excellent player, but I dont think there's any non-Giant fan who has watched the NFL the last 40 years that would say Bavaro is the best they've seen.
You could probably make a case that he belongs in the hall of fame. But I don't think there's a case to be made that he was the best any of us have ever seen.
in which you are the authority: "He's the best *I* ever saw play." Well, I consider the HoF voters more knowledgeable than you. Sorry. And if your argument was "he was the best at the height of his powers when not injured according to me," ok, that doesn't make him the best ever. Unless I'm mistaken, these threads had been about objectively who is the best, and it seems like Bavaro doesn't really belong in the discussion as the best ever.
RE: RE: I thought this thread was going to be an objective discussion Â
It is an objective view. I saw him play. Did you? Gronk was never the hellacious block Bavaro was. Period. He didn’t have Gronk’s receiving skills, I agree but he was high end in that department. The Giants didn’t feature the TE during that time
"I am objective!" is not a particularly compelling argument when you're a Giants fan. Find some non-Giants fans who share your view. There's an entire internet to search....
that pretty much anyone who isn't a Giants fan would disagree with him being the best any of us have ever seen. Bavaro was clearly an excellent player, but I dont think there's any non-Giant fan who has watched the NFL the last 40 years that would say Bavaro is the best they've seen.
You could probably make a case that he belongs in the hall of fame. But I don't think there's a case to be made that he was the best any of us have ever seen.
How do you know? Who are these fans you’re sure didn’t hold those opinions? Have you canvassed them? I have zero idea what fans think of most retired Giants. I know what they think in real time, but I have rarely seen or heard opponent fans talk about any former Giants, save for LT, perhaps. Name a fan or two that has had positive things to say about Simms? Coaches and some in the media, sure. Fans? Where?
the hall of fame voters, their opinion is worth less than fans?
You keep saying things like Period. And typing all around in capital letters.
He has never really sniffed the hall of fame. I think that's plenty enough of proof that other people on the whole would disagree with your assessment.
Your original post also makes it seem like you just recently have come to the conclusion that Bavaro was the best one you ever saw. I'm not exactly sure how that works.
RE: RE: RE: I thought this thread was going to be an objective discussion Â
It is an objective view. I saw him play. Did you? Gronk was never the hellacious block Bavaro was. Period. He didn’t have Gronk’s receiving skills, I agree but he was high end in that department. The Giants didn’t feature the TE during that time
"I am objective!" is not a particularly compelling argument when you're a Giants fan. Find some non-Giants fans who share your view. There's an entire internet to search....
You made the statement about other fans, the onus is on you to search. Oh wait, this is where you say, “I don’t have to because there aren’t any.”
I am objective off of what I saw. I am stating, on this thread, that for most of my NFL life, I though Ditka was the best 2-way TE I ever saw. Is that homerism? I have changed my opinion the last few years.
The question was and is simple: Who was the best TE you ever saw? I said MB and gave reasons why. You and others said Gronk or Gonzalez. We disagree
then surely some non-Giants fans would hold that opinion as well.
Perhaps other fans underrate him because he was a Giant. But there's a wide gap between excellent player and best anyone has ever seen, which is what you're saying.
You're acting like we're ripping Bavaro here. No one is doing that. We just dont feel like he belongs in the discussion of best ever.
It is an objective view. I saw him play. Did you? Gronk was never the hellacious block Bavaro was. Period. He didn’t have Gronk’s receiving skills, I agree but he was high end in that department. The Giants didn’t feature the TE during that time
"I am objective!" is not a particularly compelling argument when you're a Giants fan. Find some non-Giants fans who share your view. There's an entire internet to search....
You made the statement about other fans, the onus is on you to search. Oh wait, this is where you say, “I don’t have to because there aren’t any.”
I am objective off of what I saw. I am stating, on this thread, that for most of my NFL life, I though Ditka was the best 2-way TE I ever saw. Is that homerism? I have changed my opinion the last few years.
The question was and is simple: Who was the best TE you ever saw? I said MB and gave reasons why. You and others said Gronk or Gonzalez. We disagree
I literally provided 3 lists in which Gronk was listed and Bavaro was not. Now where are your examples?
you are saying a player who hasn't even sniffed the hall of fame is the best TE ever.
If that doesn't make you a homer, I'm not sure what does.
And it's not like this is the first example of you being a homer. There's nothing wrong with being a homer, but you shouldn't make a thread like this where you clearly show you are a homer and then you flip out when someone calls you one.
I promise you I'm far from a Giants homer....but you never saw Bavaro play live. His problem was he had a very short prime....but I promise you his play in 1986 was as good as any TE ever. You can't compare stats....we were a run first team in a league that was vastly different than the one that exists today. Gronk was incredible but for at least 1986 Bavaro was every bit as good.
Now of course Bavaro's career doesn't come close to Gronk's, but that is a different question.
any of us have to search when the hall of fame voters haven't even come close to electing him to the hall of fame? Isn't that enough proof?
For the last fucking time mook, he had 5 HOF type years. During those 5 HOF type years, he was the best all-around TE I ever saw, surpassing Ditka. I simply changed my mind as great as Ditka was..He does not qualify for the HOF. He didn’t play long enough to qualify
Hmmm, I thought my post would easily be read as tongue-in-cheek Â
question was not who had the best single season as a TE you ever saw. His question was Best all around TE you ever saw. That, to me, means entire body of work. And anyone who believes his entire body of work was even close to Gronks is a homer.
'56, spare me the injury excuse. Gronkowski has been banged up his entire career. He only played 9 seasons. Just like Bavaro.
And what 5 seasons did Bavaro have that were HOF worthy? '86,87,88. If you want to include 93 in there then your argument that his knee injury derailed his career goes out the window, cant have it both ways.
Gronkowski played in 11 less games in his career than Bavaro did. So spare me about injuries derailing his career.
There is zero argument to be made that Bavaro was a better player over his career than Gronkowski was. Both players had injuries that shortened their careers. One is a first ballot hall of famer, one is not going to the hall of fame.
any of us have to search when the hall of fame voters haven't even come close to electing him to the hall of fame? Isn't that enough proof?
For the last fucking time mook, he had 5 HOF type years. During those 5 HOF type years, he was the best all-around TE I ever saw, surpassing Ditka. I simply changed my mind as great as Ditka was..He does not qualify for the HOF. He didn’t play long enough to qualify
So if he didn't play long enough to qualify, then surely Rob Gronkowski didn't play long enough to qualify, right? We can revisit this in 5 years when Gronk goes in on 1st ballot.
At a players peak is an entirely different argument. But that's not what '56 said.
Strong as an Ox, blocked like a lineman, hands of glue.
John Mackey
Dave Casper
Tony Gonzales
Kellen Winslow
Shannon Sharpe
Navarro was by far the best Giants TE followed by Tucker and Shockey.
Special mention to Jason Witten who totally owned the Giants.
John Mackey
Dave Casper
Tony Gonzales
Kellen Winslow
Shannon Sharpe
Navarro was by far the best Giants TE followed by Tucker and Shockey.
Special mention to Jason Witten who totally owned the Giants.
Easier in the sense of dealing with just ONE position as opposed to multiple positions (i.e. OL) in my other threads
They were both good blockers. I know they were different eras, but the numbers aren't even remotely close, even though Bavaro played longer.
Gronk: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/G/GronRo00.htm
Bavaro: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BavaMa00.htm
Saying Bavaro was better is Giants homerism, plain and simple. Try to find intelligent, non-Giants fans who say Bavaro was better. Good luck.
Quote:
...then I saw the first reply. SAD!
They were both good blockers. I know they were different eras, but the numbers aren't even remotely close, even though Bavaro played longer.
Gronk: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/G/GronRo00.htm
Bavaro: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BavaMa00.htm
Saying Bavaro was better is Giants homerism, plain and simple. Try to find intelligent, non-Giants fans who say Bavaro was better. Good luck.
That’s BS. Just because you say it’s homerism doesn’t make it so..No one I’ve ever seen blocked like Bavaro. No exceptions, imo..He was a terrific clutch receiver and was brilliant running the seam. You like Gronk (or whomever) fine, but I simply disagree when you judge the all-around production, as great as Gronk was..
Quote:
In comment 14478126 sb from NYT Forum said:
Quote:
...then I saw the first reply. SAD!
They were both good blockers. I know they were different eras, but the numbers aren't even remotely close, even though Bavaro played longer.
Gronk: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/G/GronRo00.htm
Bavaro: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BavaMa00.htm
Saying Bavaro was better is Giants homerism, plain and simple. Try to find intelligent, non-Giants fans who say Bavaro was better. Good luck.
That’s BS. Just because you say it’s homerism doesn’t make it so..No one I’ve ever seen blocked like Bavaro. No exceptions, imo..He was a terrific clutch receiver and was brilliant running the seam. You like Gronk (or whomever) fine, but I simply disagree when you judge the all-around production, as great as Gronk was..
Yes, obviously saying something is homerism is an opinion with which you disagree. Therefore, I ask you, please find examples of intelligent, non-Giants fans who think Bavaro is better. If you can't, that would suggest to me that all the Giants fans saying Bavaro is better are being homers.
NFL.com: http://www.nfl.com/photoessays/0ap3000000816049/gil-brandt's-14-greatest-nfl-tight-ends-of-all-time
Si.com: https://www.si.com/nfl/photos/2015/12/08/top-10-nfl-tight-ends-all-time#10
Lineups.com (whatever the fuck that is): https://www.lineups.com/articles/top-25-tight-ends-all-time/
'56, calling Bavaro a better tight end than Gronk is the definition of being a homer. Gronk will be a first ballot hall of famer. Bavaro will never get into the hall of fame.
Bavaro was obviously a terrific player, I have only really seen him play via highlights, but you would be hard pressed to find any NFL fan that isn't a Giants fan to say Bavaro was a better TE than Gronk.
How about hall of fame voters who have seen him play?
'56, calling Bavaro a better tight end than Gronk is the definition of being a homer. Gronk will be a first ballot hall of famer. Bavaro will never get into the hall of fame.
Bavaro was obviously a terrific player, I have only really seen him play via highlights, but you would be hard pressed to find any NFL fan that isn't a Giants fan to say Bavaro was a better TE than Gronk.
Better ALL AROUND TE. Not to mention we had Simms throwing to Bavaro, not Brady..And Mook, I doubt you ever saw MB play, so your opinion that I’m a homer is laughable
So was Gronk's career. He missed a lot of games throughout his career and was constantly banged up.
Yet he will go into Canton on the first ballot.
Quote:
Where am I going to find fans who saw Bavaro in his prime 30+ years ago? On here? Sure and we’ll see what they opine. I will NEVER pay any attention to any fan who never saw him play. Never.
How about hall of fame voters who have seen him play?
Um, Bavaro doesn’t have enough prime years to qualify due to the knee..But during his prime years, I have never seen a better all
around TE than him. NOTHING to do with homerism. Everything to do with what I personally saw
You also apparently did not read my post where I said I only saw him play via highlights.
How come the hall of fame voters don't agree with you? A guy who can't get in vs a guy everyone on the planet knows will go in 1st ballot. Can't use the excuse that they didn't see both play.
Gronks career was absolutely shortened by injuries. Yet he will be a 1st ballot hall of famer so please find a different excuse.
It's not a slight against Bavaro to say Gronk is better. People who have watched and covered the sport for decades have not put Bavaro in the hall of fame.
It is an objective view. I saw him play. Did you? Gronk was never the hellacious block Bavaro was. Period. He didn’t have Gronk’s receiving skills, I agree but he was high end in that department. The Giants didn’t feature the TE during that time
You could probably make a case that he belongs in the hall of fame. But I don't think there's a case to be made that he was the best any of us have ever seen.
Quote:
of the best ever TEs. This has taken an odd turn.
It is an objective view. I saw him play. Did you? Gronk was never the hellacious block Bavaro was. Period. He didn’t have Gronk’s receiving skills, I agree but he was high end in that department. The Giants didn’t feature the TE during that time
"I am objective!" is not a particularly compelling argument when you're a Giants fan. Find some non-Giants fans who share your view. There's an entire internet to search....
You could probably make a case that he belongs in the hall of fame. But I don't think there's a case to be made that he was the best any of us have ever seen.
How do you know? Who are these fans you’re sure didn’t hold those opinions? Have you canvassed them? I have zero idea what fans think of most retired Giants. I know what they think in real time, but I have rarely seen or heard opponent fans talk about any former Giants, save for LT, perhaps. Name a fan or two that has had positive things to say about Simms? Coaches and some in the media, sure. Fans? Where?
You keep saying things like Period. And typing all around in capital letters.
He has never really sniffed the hall of fame. I think that's plenty enough of proof that other people on the whole would disagree with your assessment.
Your original post also makes it seem like you just recently have come to the conclusion that Bavaro was the best one you ever saw. I'm not exactly sure how that works.
Quote:
In comment 14478224 Mike from SI said:
Quote:
of the best ever TEs. This has taken an odd turn.
It is an objective view. I saw him play. Did you? Gronk was never the hellacious block Bavaro was. Period. He didn’t have Gronk’s receiving skills, I agree but he was high end in that department. The Giants didn’t feature the TE during that time
"I am objective!" is not a particularly compelling argument when you're a Giants fan. Find some non-Giants fans who share your view. There's an entire internet to search....
You made the statement about other fans, the onus is on you to search. Oh wait, this is where you say, “I don’t have to because there aren’t any.”
I am objective off of what I saw. I am stating, on this thread, that for most of my NFL life, I though Ditka was the best 2-way TE I ever saw. Is that homerism? I have changed my opinion the last few years.
The question was and is simple: Who was the best TE you ever saw? I said MB and gave reasons why. You and others said Gronk or Gonzalez. We disagree
Perhaps other fans underrate him because he was a Giant. But there's a wide gap between excellent player and best anyone has ever seen, which is what you're saying.
You're acting like we're ripping Bavaro here. No one is doing that. We just dont feel like he belongs in the discussion of best ever.
Get lost.
Quote:
In comment 14478229 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 14478224 Mike from SI said:
Quote:
of the best ever TEs. This has taken an odd turn.
It is an objective view. I saw him play. Did you? Gronk was never the hellacious block Bavaro was. Period. He didn’t have Gronk’s receiving skills, I agree but he was high end in that department. The Giants didn’t feature the TE during that time
"I am objective!" is not a particularly compelling argument when you're a Giants fan. Find some non-Giants fans who share your view. There's an entire internet to search....
You made the statement about other fans, the onus is on you to search. Oh wait, this is where you say, “I don’t have to because there aren’t any.”
I am objective off of what I saw. I am stating, on this thread, that for most of my NFL life, I though Ditka was the best 2-way TE I ever saw. Is that homerism? I have changed my opinion the last few years.
The question was and is simple: Who was the best TE you ever saw? I said MB and gave reasons why. You and others said Gronk or Gonzalez. We disagree
I literally provided 3 lists in which Gronk was listed and Bavaro was not. Now where are your examples?
If that doesn't make you a homer, I'm not sure what does.
And it's not like this is the first example of you being a homer. There's nothing wrong with being a homer, but you shouldn't make a thread like this where you clearly show you are a homer and then you flip out when someone calls you one.
Now of course Bavaro's career doesn't come close to Gronk's, but that is a different question.
For the last fucking time mook, he had 5 HOF type years. During those 5 HOF type years, he was the best all-around TE I ever saw, surpassing Ditka. I simply changed my mind as great as Ditka was..He does not qualify for the HOF. He didn’t play long enough to qualify
I didn’t expect people getting attacked for thinking a Giant was the best TE. Weird.
So I'd probably have to go with John Mackey. I can't think of anyone other than Mike Ditka that even comes close to those two guys.
The GIANTS also had another really good TE in Bob Tucker. He was every bit as good as most of those other "big" names.
At his peak its Bavaro in my book, he just didn't last long enough.
Doing it over an extended period, Gronk...
'56, spare me the injury excuse. Gronkowski has been banged up his entire career. He only played 9 seasons. Just like Bavaro.
And what 5 seasons did Bavaro have that were HOF worthy? '86,87,88. If you want to include 93 in there then your argument that his knee injury derailed his career goes out the window, cant have it both ways.
Gronkowski played in 11 less games in his career than Bavaro did. So spare me about injuries derailing his career.
There is zero argument to be made that Bavaro was a better player over his career than Gronkowski was. Both players had injuries that shortened their careers. One is a first ballot hall of famer, one is not going to the hall of fame.
Quote:
any of us have to search when the hall of fame voters haven't even come close to electing him to the hall of fame? Isn't that enough proof?
For the last fucking time mook, he had 5 HOF type years. During those 5 HOF type years, he was the best all-around TE I ever saw, surpassing Ditka. I simply changed my mind as great as Ditka was..He does not qualify for the HOF. He didn’t play long enough to qualify
So if he didn't play long enough to qualify, then surely Rob Gronkowski didn't play long enough to qualify, right? We can revisit this in 5 years when Gronk goes in on 1st ballot.
At a players peak is an entirely different argument. But that's not what '56 said.
Yes, Giants fans.
Hall of fame voters disagree completely.
Your argument that he didn't play long enough to qualify for HOF is ridiculous.
He only had 3 HOF type seasons out of 9. That's why he's not in the hall of fame. Gronkowski played the same amount of seasons and less games.