On The Jump Lebrons media guy and the ex-player said that there are many in the league now who believe Durant joins his buddy Irving and heads to the Nets.
Wonder if at that point the Nets become #1 in the NYC market and Knicks become yesterdays news?
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again happy for the nets fans on this board and i hopenknicks build a good team while irving and durant are there so we can have some fun games
depends on what the knicks do in free agency
That may be true within the area, but from an outsider's perspective the Knicks have been a joke for quite some time. I look at the Knicks like any other floundering franchise. Hopefully with Knox, Barrett and whoever else they add to the nucleus they will be able to shift the tide.
I'll agree that the Nets success wouldn't knock the Knicks out of the lime light because there's way too much history. Heck the same is true with the Lakers and Clippers. LA will always be Laker-land.
He doesn't seem like a big city, big market guy. I don't see him coming to NY.
Clippers seem like a much more likely landing spot for him if he leaves Toronto.
Hes going to the Clips.
Id be more concerned about this if it was 2 weeks ago
For the Nets to overtake the Knicks, it would require decades of futility by the Knicks and a similar period of success for the Nets. You look at the Devils vs the Rangers, where for a good 10 years, the Devils were the top team in the area and the Rangers were the near-constant fuckups. What happened if you had a younger generation of hockey fans being Devils fans instead of Rangers fans. Now, you would need numerous of these same instances to make a major shift of the most beloved teams in the area. Probably never going to actually happen. Same thing for the Nets vs. Knicks.
I expect Harris and Russell/Kyrie.
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NY is a basketball town. When the Yanks or Giants are bad there is a significant decrease in people's interest in them. MSG with a shitty team is basically sold out every night. Now years of being shitty will take its toll but the Nets will have their years when they are significantly better than us but more depends on how the Knicks perform. I don't see how the Nets will have any lasting effect compared to the Knicks.
That may be true within the area, but from an outsider's perspective the Knicks have been a joke for quite some time. I look at the Knicks like any other floundering franchise. Hopefully with Knox, Barrett and whoever else they add to the nucleus they will be able to shift the tide.
I'll agree that the Nets success wouldn't knock the Knicks out of the lime light because there's way too much history. Heck the same is true with the Lakers and Clippers. LA will always be Laker-land.
I grew up in NJ and I agree the Knicks will always have more fans than the Nets. However, I live in Park Slope Brooklyn now and see tons of more Nets stuff than the Knicks. It is actually rare to see any Knicks stuff (my kids might be the exception. Now maybe its because the Nets play close by; sure. But, the I see much more Rangers than Islanders stuff and the Isles also play in that building (or at least half the year they do). In addition, Brooklyn's population is exploding in numbers. If the Nets are good, they could easily get a strong following. Will it pass the Knicks? No. But Brooklyn in the last 10 years has basically approached Manhattan in visibility and stars from all over live in Park Slope, Williamsburg,Brooklyn Heights, downtown Brooklyn, Cobble Hill--all areas that surround the Barclays Center. In fact, I would argue that the epicenter of NYC right now in terms of cultural influence and food etc is lower Manhattan and the areas on the other side of the River in Brooklyn. I am not saying KD or any other NBA star holds this opinion, but there is this general feeling that Brooklyn feels new and fresh while Manhattan feels outdated. How that will translate to the Borough's only sports team, I am not sure. It is worth noting though.
I expect Harris and Russell/Kyrie.
If theyre not getting another star, Id just as soon keep D-Lo and not sign Kylie. With another star, his personality isnt as much of a distraction. If hes the main guy, I worry he will be. That and his knees.
Because for the last however many years, the Knicks have been a clinic is a fucked up front office and ownership model. James Dolan, Isaiah Thomas, Phil Jackson, etc. Right now, the only things the Knicks have going for them are "We're the Knicks" and "We play at MSG." The Nets, meanwhile, recovered from the disastrous Garnett/Pierce trade to go from laughing stock to playoff team without having any control over their own first round pick during that time. Marks gives the perception that the Nets' front office knows what it's doing.
Like other net fans I'm still not counting on this specific outcome, but I do think Marks knows he's going to have options in FA. Even just landing Horford or Harris would be great. Part of me might even prefer that to just go 1 step at a time and then save money for a final piece next year (like Porzingas). The top 7 guys in the rotation on the roster right now are all in their early 20's, they fit the system, and all are capable of starting in the NBA. Musa + Claxton are interesting prospects. Just keep building.
Last thing - I don't think any Net fan gives 2 shits if they "take over NY". If they win I don't care who has more prestige. If I was a Devil fan in the 90's/00's I wouldn't have cared that nobody cared, I would have loved winning. As a Met I know we will never be the Yankees but it doesn't matter. Just win.
Because its the NBA and they can market the fuck out of it, its still NY.
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the top priority.
He doesn't seem like a big city, big market guy. I don't see him coming to NY.
Clippers seem like a much more likely landing spot for him if he leaves Toronto.
Dont know why this made me chuckle. Kawhi isnt a big city, market guy. I think hes going to the little town called Los Angeles if he leaves.
LOL its always a Yankees town, dont kid yourself.
At least knick fans have that to fall back on?
I'm guessing majority of net fans prefer watching good basketball on the court than 'bragging rights'
We're 3 decade's ago news.
PS: couldnt care less about which team is No. 1 in NYC. Thats all media-driven hype and nothing else.
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In comment 14479424 robbieballs2003 said:
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NY is a basketball town. When the Yanks or Giants are bad there is a significant decrease in people's interest in them. MSG with a shitty team is basically sold out every night. Now years of being shitty will take its toll but the Nets will have their years when they are significantly better than us but more depends on how the Knicks perform. I don't see how the Nets will have any lasting effect compared to the Knicks.
That may be true within the area, but from an outsider's perspective the Knicks have been a joke for quite some time. I look at the Knicks like any other floundering franchise. Hopefully with Knox, Barrett and whoever else they add to the nucleus they will be able to shift the tide.
I'll agree that the Nets success wouldn't knock the Knicks out of the lime light because there's way too much history. Heck the same is true with the Lakers and Clippers. LA will always be Laker-land.
I grew up in NJ and I agree the Knicks will always have more fans than the Nets. However, I live in Park Slope Brooklyn now and see tons of more Nets stuff than the Knicks. It is actually rare to see any Knicks stuff (my kids might be the exception. Now maybe its because the Nets play close by; sure. But, the I see much more Rangers than Islanders stuff and the Isles also play in that building (or at least half the year they do). In addition, Brooklyn's population is exploding in numbers. If the Nets are good, they could easily get a strong following. Will it pass the Knicks? No. But Brooklyn in the last 10 years has basically approached Manhattan in visibility and stars from all over live in Park Slope, Williamsburg,Brooklyn Heights, downtown Brooklyn, Cobble Hill--all areas that surround the Barclays Center. In fact, I would argue that the epicenter of NYC right now in terms of cultural influence and food etc is lower Manhattan and the areas on the other side of the River in Brooklyn. I am not saying KD or any other NBA star holds this opinion, but there is this general feeling that Brooklyn feels new and fresh while Manhattan feels outdated. How that will translate to the Borough's only sports team, I am not sure. It is worth noting though.
Isn't the NYC population decreasing?
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KD I would have loved on the Knicks but the injury changed things for me and I wish him well. The Knicks are not getting the free agent white knights this summer, just make your peace with it. I am fine watching the kids.
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Regarding Kyrie/KD to the Nets:
- Spoke to folks today who said it's still unlikely.
- Still believes Kyrie/Butler is the pairing in Brooklyn.
- Referenced KD's quote, "I can't be recruited" in reference to Kyrie talking KD into joining him - KD doesn't want it to seem he's following someone.
- Most importantly, he said there's been a lot of noise, but "not coming from Woj." Obviously Woj knows all, but the way he said it implied Woj is plugged into the Nets in particular. If this was happening, he'd be saying it.
Regarding Kawhi's interest in the Knicks:
- Spurs told Kawhi they wouldn't give him the supermax, and that's where the trouble began.
- Toronto can give him the max, but not a supermax.
- This is where the Knicks come in: they can still offer the most earning power off the court.
- Kawhi is all about the money right now - not that he's gonna put his feet up once he gets paid, but he and his people want to put down roots and cash in.
- He followed up on Michael Kay's insight yesterday on sneaker sales. Kawhi wears New Balance, but few people do. One-third of all sneakers in the world are sold in NYC - Kawhi can sell sneakers here and not have to do commercials, which he tries to avoid.
- Knicks pitch should and will include business. (Side note: These are my thoughts, but this is probably why reports surfaced of the Clips not liking the emergence of the Knicks - they know they're at a disadvantage business-wise).
Finally, Hahn emphasized that KD is still top priority for the Knicks, and will be made to feel that way 6/30.
Better than the Garden? I'm guessing you haven't been to the Garden in at least 10 years.
Thats not entirely true unless you meant the Kyrie + KD stuff. Woj has said numerous times that Brooklyn and Kyrie have a lot of mutual interest. Of course, he was also the first to say that the Nets arent convinced Kyrie alone makes sense.
On Zach Lowes podcast today with Bobby Marks and Givony they reiterated this too. They also said theres debate in the Nets FO whether Kyrie would even make sense over Russell if it was Kyrie + Butler, Harris, etc since Kyrie would be option 1, not second fiddle. They agreed though that when all is said and done theyd probably still sign Kyrie if he wanted to come no matter who else did because its a hard thing to turn down given what it would mean to the franchise that a big name star wanted to play there.
All that stuff is fan and journalist crap.
I dont fully agree with this. I think all teams have some idea but people change their minds and those in players inner circles may have other agendas. Also, lets say a team thinks they have a 45% chance at signing Kawhi for arguments sake. Opening up cap space to take that shot is absolutely the right decision even if you strike out. Its a league dominated mainly by a handful of players. Anytime you have half decent odds at landing one of them you take your chance and give it your best shot.
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they know who they are getting, they are not clearing all this space for nothing
I dont fully agree with this. I think all teams have some idea but people change their minds and those in players inner circles may have other agendas. Also, lets say a team thinks they have a 45% chance at signing Kawhi for arguments sake. Opening up cap space to take that shot is absolutely the right decision even if you strike out. Its a league dominated mainly by a handful of players. Anytime you have half decent odds at landing one of them you take your chance and give it your best shot.
i get that but trading 2 forst round picks to clear an expiring, they know something...they traded out of their first round pick last night to save money as well...
Im fine with the Nets getting these 2, lets sign Russell if thats the case & maintain cap flexibility.
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I do think it is kyries people talking to the nets rather than kyrie himself
Im fine with the Nets getting these 2, lets sign Russell if thats the case & maintain cap flexibility.
i am fine with that, i am one of the few who wouldnt mind kyrie and another max even if that other max is not durant
and i am totally fine with russell and fill out the rest of the roster with vets...
i wont be mad if the knicms got durant but part of me doesnt want him after the injury..there is a part that thinks if they sign durant they surrender to a 3 year window and will trade some of the young guys
I don't think the Kyrie stuff is BS, I think there's mutual interest, I just don't know if he's their top choice. I tend to think he isn't because their roster is obviously pretty stacked at G (DLo, Dinwiddie, Levert) and almost empty in the front court.
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That was in 2017 and they revises that number down recently.
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Except when the Yankees stink and the Mets are good. Then it is more 50:50. If the Nets knock it out of the park they will get their fans. Barkley Center is a great venue - better than the Garden. I went to a Nets game last winter and it was a great experience as far as entertainment goes...
LOL its always a Yankees town, dont kid yourself.
NY was a Met's town in the 80s whether you care to admit it or not. Steinbrenner hated all the attention the Mets got.
If I'm the Nets though, I'd keep the hell away from Kyrie. He is a cancer. Russell is a good kid and is getting better. Bring in the right kids. The Knicks just need to stay the course and develop their kids. Dolan is not interfering and is allowing Perry to do the job. I have a lot of confidence in Perry, and on an unrelated note, I feel good about what Gettleman is doing with the Giants. Let the youth be served. There's something cool about watching teams being built organically from the ground up the right way.
P.S. Windhorst is such a whore. Talk about riding LePoop's coat tails.
Kyrie is better than Russell now, but that could change in the not-too-distant future. Letting a 23 year old emerging star go for a nutjob like Kyrie is not smart imo. This guy just jobbed two franchises in a row. You think that is not going to happen again with the Nets? I think a good chance it does
Kyrie is better than Russell now, but that could change in the not-too-distant future. Letting a 23 year old emerging star go for a nutjob like Kyrie is not smart imo. This guy just jobbed two franchises in a row. You think that is not going to happen again with the Nets? I think a good chance it does
Well said. Great point about what he (this Irving douce) did to the last two franchises he was one.
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Keep Russell and build with young players
Kyrie is better than Russell now, but that could change in the not-too-distant future. Letting a 23 year old emerging star go for a nutjob like Kyrie is not smart imo. This guy just jobbed two franchises in a row. You think that is not going to happen again with the Nets? I think a good chance it does
Well said. Great point about what he (this Irving douce) did to the last two franchises he was one.
Yeah. CLE is still smarting from the championship he won them... LOL
I mean, there's cause for concern, and then there's overreaction haterade... Kyrie is a top 25 player easy.
As a Knicks fan, I think Kyrie is a fantastic player - but he's not going to be a Batman on a title team. If KD and Kyrie were coming to the Garden, I'd be good with that; thrilled, really. But even still, I don't love the Kyrie part. Mostly because he seems like a guy who will just kinda check out mentally if things aren't going the way he wants.
I'd want Kyrie if there's a player on the roster who is better than he is. Otherwise, I really don't... it's not netting a title.
In any event.... I still want the Knicks to sign KD. Assume the first year is a wash. Let RJ, Knox, Mitch and Zo get more burn and experience. Another lotto pick would be fantastic if possible. And then go from there.
Color me skeptical. EVERYTHING I've heard up to this point has said Durant does not want to go to Brooklyn although Kyrie is trying to convince him to. Bucher said KD is having some issues with the whole "You can't get hurt worse" thing with Golden State, even though his own doctors supposedly said the same thing as the Warriors' people. So it's basically GSW, NYK, Clippers, and then Brooklyn. I guess we'll see.
2) Kyrie is a weird guy, he is also not the rotten apple that he has been labeled because of the sh$tshow in Boston this year. If people who were his boss say this, I believe it.
3) Kyrie vs. Dlo. coming from a huge DLo and huge nets fan... there is really no comparison yet player wise. So if you want a better team for now and the next 4 years, Kyrie is and will be better. Also if you are a net fan and dont believe that Kyrie would adapt into the culture, then i also dont think you fully believe in the Nets culture. Its this culture that is why Kyrie, and other players are looking at the nets.
4) Caring about how many fans you have or silly crap like that... is just stupid.
5) if the nets strike out, it was still worth it... because they still have the same team moving forward... picked up a draft pick next year (that they had traded) and we go from there.
I have no idea what will happen, but i think teams like BKN and NY are just putting themselves in position to try to hit the HR.
3) Kyrie vs. Dlo. coming from a huge DLo and huge nets fan... there is really no comparison yet player wise. So if you want a better team for now and the next 4 years, Kyrie is and will be better. Also if you are a net fan and dont believe that Kyrie would adapt into the culture, then i also dont think you fully believe in the Nets culture. Its this culture that is why Kyrie, and other players are looking at the nets.
Re #1 - Harris or Horford alone would edge them closer to where Toronto was pre-Kawhi. Or where Boston was pre-Kyrie. If they added both I think they'd be a 55+ win team but not sure they can win in the playoffs unless someone really steps up. But if they add 1, they are 1 player away from being a real contender - and there's a chance Porzingas could be that guy if he hits FA next year.
Re Kyrie - I do agree that 1 factor nobody mentions is that Russell's rep was worse than Kyrie's when we first got him. That's not predictive that Kyrie will buy into the culture the same way DLo did, but it could happen, especially if that's part of the reason why he's coming here in the first place. Atkinson and Marks do things the right way and try really hard to help their players.
My biggest issues with adding Kyrie at the expense of DLo are the 4 year age difference that would narrow the window and that he's twice missed the playoffs due to injuries that required surgery. He's a great player though so I'd have no issue adding him with Russell and seeing if it can work. They've closed out plenty of games with both Dinwiddie + Russell on the floor together, so I think it's worth a shot with Irving. Then you can trade Dinwiddie for front court help.
I have no idea what will happen, but i think teams like BKN and NY are just putting themselves in position to try to hit the HR.
they might not know who they are getting, but I do think they know they have at least a few willing to sign options. So they might not know exactly which scenario will play out but that they won't strike out.
Re Kyrie - I do agree that 1 factor nobody mentions is that Russell's rep was worse than Kyrie's when we first got him. That's not predictive that Kyrie will buy into the culture the same way DLo did, but it could happen, especially if that's part of the reason why he's coming here in the first place. Atkinson and Marks do things the right way and try really hard to help their players.
I'm not sure this is true but either way Russell was just an immature kid. He was what -- 20 or 21 at the time? Kyrie is 27 and going into his 9th NBA season. The Lakers organization was (is) a mess too. This time last year, Boston's culture was considered to amongst the league's best. If Kyrie couldn't buy into what Ainge and Stevens were selling on a team that was better than the one he'd be going to than it's something I'd be wary about as it seems the Nets are.
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Re Kyrie - I do agree that 1 factor nobody mentions is that Russell's rep was worse than Kyrie's when we first got him. That's not predictive that Kyrie will buy into the culture the same way DLo did, but it could happen, especially if that's part of the reason why he's coming here in the first place. Atkinson and Marks do things the right way and try really hard to help their players.
I'm not sure this is true but either way Russell was just an immature kid. He was what -- 20 or 21 at the time? Kyrie is 27 and going into his 9th NBA season. The Lakers organization was (is) a mess too. This time last year, Boston's culture was considered to amongst the league's best. If Kyrie couldn't buy into what Ainge and Stevens were selling on a team that was better than the one he'd be going to than it's something I'd be wary about as it seems the Nets are.
Did Al Horford also not buy in? Why does he want out? Most of the reports say the biggest reason boston was a mess this year was Stevens overplayed Hayward at the expense of others and it rubbed the young wins the wrong way (Tatum, Brown and obviously Hayward were the ones who disappointing years, not Irving). Considering Irving has been there for 2 years and there were no issues year 1 and Boston continues to want to resign him, I don't think it's entirely obvious he was the issue.
Also when the Nets traded for Russell yes he was a kid, but Magic gave up on him literally because he didn't think he could ever be a leader and do what he did this past season. It was a direct quote. Aside from that many also questioned how good he'd ever be on the court and whether he even had a natural position. Talent is not a concern with Kyrie, but the former is still a fair question, as it was with Russell when he arrived. I don't think the age difference makes much difference however. Guys can get more mature at any age - and often it does take some adversity to buy into coaching.
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There are 3 levels of "Max" Contracts that exist in the current NBA CBA. For the purposes of our discussion, all that is relevant for fitting a player into your cap is their starting year salary. (If you want to know how players are financially incentivized to stay with their current team, players can re-sign with their current team for a 5-year deal instead of a 4-year deal and the current team can also offer them up to 8% raises every year while the new team can only offer 5% raises.) For players with 0-6 years in the NBA it can start at 25% of the cap in the first year. For players with 7-9 years can start at 30% of the cap in the first year. And lastly, any player with 10 or more years of experience can start at 35% of the cap. This is going to come into play depending on who the Nets choose to pursue.
Years of Experience Qualifying Players Starting Max Salary
10+ Kevin Durant, Al Hoford $38,150,000
7-9 Kyrie Irving, Kawhi Leonard, Jimmy Butler, Tobias Harris $32,700,000
0-6 D'Angelo Russell, Julius Randle $27,250,000
Keep in mind you can effectively subtract $897,158 from these figures because signing a player would clear one of the incomplete roster holds.
FAQ4. Can we currently sign Kyrie and KD? If not, how can we clear up space? As we are right now, even renouncing all cap holds and cutting Napier and Graham, we're a tiny bit short of the space required to sign both Kyrie and KD. We have $68,672,292 of space but need $69,055,684 ($38,150,000+$32,700,000-$897,158-$897,158). That means we're effectively $383,392 short which could be achieved by trading Musa away or maybe even have Kyrie and KD take a little bit less to fit them in without making a trade.
FAQ5. Can we sign D'Angelo Russell, Kyrie Irving, and another max contract? If so, what moves are necessary?
Since a lot of the media rumblings have Kyrie committed to the Nets and a lot of Nets fans want to keep DLo as well, I've seen this question a lot. And the answer is...it depends. If the two non-DLo players in question are Kyrie + KD, there needs to be around $69,055,684 in cap space. If the two non-DLo players in question are Kyrie + Kawhi/Butler/Tobias there needs to be around $63,605,684. The best way to go about this would be to not renounce DLo's cap hold so he can count for $21,059,094 against the cap while we go out and use up the open cap space.
Player 2019-20 Cap Hit
Spencer Dinwiddie $10,605,084
Joe Harris $7,666,667
Taurean Prince $3,481,986
Caris LeVert $2,625,718
Jarrett Allen $2,376,840
Dzanan Musa $1,911,600
Rodions Kurucs $1,699,236
D'Angelo Russell [Cap Hold] $21,059,094
Deron Williams [Dead Cap] $5,474,787
Incomplete Roster Charge ($897,158 x 4) $3,588,632
Total $60,489,644
Projected Salary Cap $109,000,000
Cap Space $48,510,356
Adding that to the cap sheet and subtracting one of the incomplete roster charges leaves us $48,510,356 in cap space.
Magic is a fool. He saw a shiny new toy in Ball that reminded him of himself and gave up on Russell as a result. I wouldn't use his opinion as anything reflecting reality.
Age is of course important. Were you as mature at 21 as you were at 27? I certainly wasn't and most people aren't. It's well understood that the parts of the human brain related to maturity (good judgement, awareness of long-term consequences) aren't fully formed until age 24 or so on average.
When things don't go his way he bails. That's not the type of guy I frankly want to build a team around.
Stevens did a bad job this season, no doubt. But he's still one of the best coaches in basketball and players respect him.
Irving had a problem with nearly everyone by the end. Stevens, Ainge, Rozier, Brown, and Tatum. At some point you have to identify the common variable.
If Nets and Celtics effectively swap point guards (which I think the Celtics will definitely pursue Russel if available), I won't be surprised if the Celtics are a better team even with out Horford.
I'm by no means a Kyrie superfan - i've said in this thread I'd rather just keep russell because he's a known quantity for the Nets and 4 years younger, with less injury history. Neither player is a true #1. But Kyrie is a very good player and calling him a cancer isn't really backed up by all that much.
Warriors with Draymond becoming a FA and Klay coming off an ACL?
Nets with Kyrie, Joe Harris, Allen and Prince
or Knicks with Knox, Barrett, DSJ, Mitch, another lotto 1st and another max slot?
I think you can definitely make the argument it's the Knicks.
23 year old All-Star is finally getting some love.
I'm by no means a Kyrie superfan - i've said in this thread I'd rather just keep russell because he's a known quantity for the Nets and 4 years younger, with less injury history. Neither player is a true #1. But Kyrie is a very good player and calling him a cancer isn't really backed up by all that much.
I actually didn't say any of that. I didn't say he can't mature nor did I call him a cancer...
When things don't go his way he bails. That's not the type of guy I frankly want to build a team around.
Stevens did a bad job this season, no doubt. But he's still one of the best coaches in basketball and players respect him.
Irving had a problem with nearly everyone by the end. Stevens, Ainge, Rozier, Brown, and Tatum. At some point you have to identify the common variable.
If Nets and Celtics effectively swap point guards (which I think the Celtics will definitely pursue Russel if available), I won't be surprised if the Celtics are a better team even with out Horford.
This is not an unfair post but it's also reading into some things and assigning meaning where there may or may not be. Kawhi pushed his way out from Greg Popovich. I think it's stupid for any player to ask out of a team Lebron is on but sometimes things happen behind the scenes and Kyrie was like 24 at the time. Kyrie's 2 years in Boston are tough to assign value/blame - by the numbers he was their best player both years but it obviously just didn't work out. It could work out at his next step or it could not - but I don't think it's pre-determined that he's headcase. I don't think he's Stephon Marbury, but he could be - that's why I'd prefer to keep DLo if it comes down to a choice.
And yes, that Nets team is better.
No, its not close.
Barrett and the hypothetical future pick are lotto tickets. We have no idea what they are right now. No one is making a decision based on them. Is it possible Barrett becomes an all-star early on and you hit paydirt next year? Of course. Is it possible you have two more lottery busts? Yes.
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but Kyrie Irving can't possibly develop more maturity with whoever his new team ends up being? Why do I think that opinion would change if signed with whatever team you root for.
I'm by no means a Kyrie superfan - i've said in this thread I'd rather just keep russell because he's a known quantity for the Nets and 4 years younger, with less injury history. Neither player is a true #1. But Kyrie is a very good player and calling him a cancer isn't really backed up by all that much.
I actually didn't say any of that. I didn't say he can't mature nor did I call him a cancer...
you responded to a post that was effecitvely "Kyrie could mature the same way Russell did" by saying "im not sure that's true" and listing reasons why. That kind of implies not thinking he can mature, but no point belaboring it if we're both in agreement that there's a possibility he's not a cancer and could mature in whatever new environment he ends up at.
Warriors with Draymond becoming a FA and Klay coming off an ACL?
Nets with Kyrie, Joe Harris, Allen and Prince
or Knicks with Knox, Barrett, DSJ, Mitch, another lotto 1st and another max slot?
I think you can definitely make the argument it's the Knicks.
It's the Warriors and it's not close unless Barrett becomes a superstar in his second year (HIGHLY unlikely).
This is why KD to the Nets makes no sense to me. If it's about winning and he's not as confident that he can carry a team as he once was when he comes back then he should absolutely go back to GS. If it's about his legacy, brand, etc and he's confident he'll get back to where he was and wants to prove he's the best player in the world then the Knicks make the most sense.
No disrespect to Net fans on here but they sort of sit #2 amongst all of the contributing factors which isn't at all to say anything negative about the Nets. Maybe post-achilles injury that's the compromise he feels like he needs to make?
And yes, that Nets team is better.
No, its not close.
Barrett and the hypothetical future pick are lotto tickets. We have no idea what they are right now. No one is making a decision based on them. Is it possible Barrett becomes an all-star early on and you hit paydirt next year? Of course. Is it possible you have two more lottery busts? Yes.
I forgot about LaVert. Who else? Dinwiddie and Jared Dudley? Lets not pretend that the Nets have some stacked roster.
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I like Irving and I hope he succeeds at the team of his choosing, but he wasn't happy on a championship team with the best player in the world and pushed his way out, he announced unnecessarily he was going to stay in Boston publicly, and after a tough season where they still won a playoff series he wants out.
When things don't go his way he bails. That's not the type of guy I frankly want to build a team around.
Stevens did a bad job this season, no doubt. But he's still one of the best coaches in basketball and players respect him.
Irving had a problem with nearly everyone by the end. Stevens, Ainge, Rozier, Brown, and Tatum. At some point you have to identify the common variable.
If Nets and Celtics effectively swap point guards (which I think the Celtics will definitely pursue Russel if available), I won't be surprised if the Celtics are a better team even with out Horford.
This is not an unfair post but it's also reading into some things and assigning meaning where there may or may not be. Kawhi pushed his way out from Greg Popovich. I think it's stupid for any player to ask out of a team Lebron is on but sometimes things happen behind the scenes and Kyrie was like 24 at the time. Kyrie's 2 years in Boston are tough to assign value/blame - by the numbers he was their best player both years but it obviously just didn't work out. It could work out at his next step or it could not - but I don't think it's pre-determined that he's headcase. I don't think he's Stephon Marbury, but he could be - that's why I'd prefer to keep DLo if it comes down to a choice.
I don't think he's a head case, I just don't think he's the kind of person who has the mental toughness to withstand hard situations and lead a team out of it.
Leornard is such an outlying case -- maybe Irving is that type of guy but if I'm a GM I'm not counting on it.
I appreciate Irving, I like him and I wish him well. I don't want him to stay on the team I pull for, and I'd rather the Celtics get busy rebuilding. I don't know if ever been happy a great player is leaving my team.
Like I said, maybe he's much happier in the team of his choosing and succeeds.
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more about Durant, who is going to have the best situation in 2020, when he'll actually be able to play?
Warriors with Draymond becoming a FA and Klay coming off an ACL?
Nets with Kyrie, Joe Harris, Allen and Prince
or Knicks with Knox, Barrett, DSJ, Mitch, another lotto 1st and another max slot?
I think you can definitely make the argument it's the Knicks.
It's the Warriors and it's not close unless Barrett becomes a superstar in his second year (HIGHLY unlikely).
This is why KD to the Nets makes no sense to me. If it's about winning and he's not as confident that he can carry a team as he once was when he comes back then he should absolutely go back to GS. If it's about his legacy, brand, etc and he's confident he'll get back to where he was and wants to prove he's the best player in the world then the Knicks make the most sense.
No disrespect to Net fans on here but they sort of sit #2 amongst all of the contributing factors which isn't at all to say anything negative about the Nets. Maybe post-achilles injury that's the compromise he feels like he needs to make?
Part of me wishes Durant agreed with you, but it certainly sounds like he doesnt.
There is a massive drop off between the Warriors (60 win team without KD), the Nets (50 win team without KD) and Knicks (25 win team without KD).
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more about Durant, who is going to have the best situation in 2020, when he'll actually be able to play?
Warriors with Draymond becoming a FA and Klay coming off an ACL?
Nets with Kyrie, Joe Harris, Allen and Prince
or Knicks with Knox, Barrett, DSJ, Mitch, another lotto 1st and another max slot?
I think you can definitely make the argument it's the Knicks.
It's the Warriors and it's not close unless Barrett becomes a superstar in his second year (HIGHLY unlikely).
This is why KD to the Nets makes no sense to me. If it's about winning and he's not as confident that he can carry a team as he once was when he comes back then he should absolutely go back to GS. If it's about his legacy, brand, etc and he's confident he'll get back to where he was and wants to prove he's the best player in the world then the Knicks make the most sense.
No disrespect to Net fans on here but they sort of sit #2 amongst all of the contributing factors which isn't at all to say anything negative about the Nets. Maybe post-achilles injury that's the compromise he feels like he needs to make?
I think this is all fair but I think there's one aspect of this being overlooked or not factored in enough. If you go back to the Warriors then you are pretty much expected to win. Championship or bust. If you go to someone like the Nets, you still have a great situation and the ability/situation to win, but it alleviates that win or bust perception. The Nets or Knicks, with their young role players, would still be expected to win, but it isn't this superstar team.
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You left off multiple Nets players. Including some of their best.
And yes, that Nets team is better.
No, its not close.
Barrett and the hypothetical future pick are lotto tickets. We have no idea what they are right now. No one is making a decision based on them. Is it possible Barrett becomes an all-star early on and you hit paydirt next year? Of course. Is it possible you have two more lottery busts? Yes.
I forgot about LaVert. Who else? Dinwiddie and Jared Dudley? Lets not pretend that the Nets have some stacked roster.
The Nets over under is going to be in the 50s if they sign Kyrie. They are pretty good.
Leornard is such an outlying case -- maybe Irving is that type of guy but if I'm a GM I'm not counting on it.
I appreciate Irving, I like him and I wish him well. I don't want him to stay on the team I pull for, and I'd rather the Celtics get busy rebuilding. I don't know if ever been happy a great player is leaving my team.
Like I said, maybe he's much happier in the team of his choosing and succeeds.
I'm mostly in agreement. I don't love the player - he wouldn't be in my top few targets if I was the Nets GM. But if I could get him without losing DLo I'd roll the dice on his talent and hope that he matures.
I'm very confident the Knicks will sign Durant. I think when the dust settles, and the emotions settle, no one else is giving Durant a max to redshirt a year.
The Warriors' total tax and payroll would be 300M+ if they max Durant and Thompson. I don't see them paying over a billion dollars to keep the core together for the next 4 years.
There is an irrational part of me that wants to sign him because Knicks (and other NBA) fans literally cannot comprehend it happening. Despite the fact that the Nets have clearly proven themselves as the better organization with the better team. Some, not all, of these fans appear to have not ever watched the Nets play or have mostly skipped out on following the NBA in the last three years because their team has been atrocious and are sticking to their same tired tropes about fanbases/how the Nets have no good players.
The rational part of me doesnt want to sign him because its not entirely clear its the right thing for sustained winning (though I defer to the front office as they clearly know how to build a team).
The rational side is winning, right now. Hope that is true for the front office as well.
He knows Irving good and bad, and worked well with him. And he's getting far enough below the max there is room for another rotational piece.
He knows Irving good and bad, and worked well with him. And he's getting far enough below the max there is room for another rotational piece.
Horford has what, one or two good seasons left? He apparently is looking for 4 years 112 million, that's not far below the max IMO. 28 mil a season. Only way I sign him is if I am a contender next season. By contender I mean a top 3 seed.
I think it's even more pathetic to resign both teams to failure.
I agree. But the issue is Nets fans constantly ripping on the Knicks and acting like the Nets have won back to back to back championships. The Nets just barely finished .500 and got curb stomped in the first round.
The Nets are better than the Knicks right now. But Ive never in my life seen a fanbase so ecstatic about utter mediocrity. Everyone on the team is awesome! Yet they barely managed to scrape out a playoff birth in the horrible East. Im glad theyre satisfied with that. But please, get out of the first round before running your mouths.
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Neither team is very good, lol. Its like the contest to be the tallest midget. Personally, Id love for them to get Kyrie. Seems like a great culture guy.
I agree. But the issue is Nets fans constantly ripping on the Knicks and acting like the Nets have won back to back to back championships. The Nets just barely finished .500 and got curb stomped in the first round.
The Nets are better than the Knicks right now. But Ive never in my life seen a fanbase so ecstatic about utter mediocrity. Everyone on the team is awesome! Yet they barely managed to scrape out a playoff birth in the horrible East. Im glad theyre satisfied with that. But please, get out of the first round before running your mouths.
Not a nets fan but I think knick fans are more insufferable. Claiming to be the mecca of basketball and not even having a playoff birth since Ewing to hold their hat on. Neither team has been good but the nets have at least had some success the last 20 years
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In comment 14480634 PhiPsi125 said:
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Neither team is very good, lol. Its like the contest to be the tallest midget. Personally, Id love for them to get Kyrie. Seems like a great culture guy.
I agree. But the issue is Nets fans constantly ripping on the Knicks and acting like the Nets have won back to back to back championships. The Nets just barely finished .500 and got curb stomped in the first round.
The Nets are better than the Knicks right now. But Ive never in my life seen a fanbase so ecstatic about utter mediocrity. Everyone on the team is awesome! Yet they barely managed to scrape out a playoff birth in the horrible East. Im glad theyre satisfied with that. But please, get out of the first round before running your mouths.
Not a nets fan but I think knick fans are more insufferable. Claiming to be the mecca of basketball and not even having a playoff birth since Ewing to hold their hat on. Neither team has been good but the nets have at least had some success the last 20 years
Knicks did go to the playoffs a few years ago for 3 straight years and won 54 games...
What fan base still supports their team like knicks fans do? the place is rocking evwn when the knicks are 20 games under 500..
Calling knicks fans insufferable is a joke..
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In comment 14480804 BigBlueShock said:
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In comment 14480634 PhiPsi125 said:
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Neither team is very good, lol. Its like the contest to be the tallest midget. Personally, Id love for them to get Kyrie. Seems like a great culture guy.
I agree. But the issue is Nets fans constantly ripping on the Knicks and acting like the Nets have won back to back to back championships. The Nets just barely finished .500 and got curb stomped in the first round.
The Nets are better than the Knicks right now. But Ive never in my life seen a fanbase so ecstatic about utter mediocrity. Everyone on the team is awesome! Yet they barely managed to scrape out a playoff birth in the horrible East. Im glad theyre satisfied with that. But please, get out of the first round before running your mouths.
Not a nets fan but I think knick fans are more insufferable. Claiming to be the mecca of basketball and not even having a playoff birth since Ewing to hold their hat on. Neither team has been good but the nets have at least had some success the last 20 years
Knicks did go to the playoffs a few years ago for 3 straight years and won 54 games...
You're right. I blocked the melo years out of my mind. Winning a game vs the heat was a sad exit. Too lazy to look up the rest
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Neither team is very good, lol. Its like the contest to be the tallest midget. Personally, Id love for them to get Kyrie. Seems like a great culture guy.
I agree. But the issue is Nets fans constantly ripping on the Knicks and acting like the Nets have won back to back to back championships. The Nets just barely finished .500 and got curb stomped in the first round.
The Nets are better than the Knicks right now. But Ive never in my life seen a fanbase so ecstatic about utter mediocrity. Everyone on the team is awesome! Yet they barely managed to scrape out a playoff birth in the horrible East. Im glad theyre satisfied with that. But please, get out of the first round before running your mouths.
Lol what are you talking about?
The knicks should be like the Yankees and giants but the fans have a complex like the jets or mets.
The nets are irrelevant for near all of my fan hood and I could give 2 shits about it.
If Durant is out then I would give Russel the max 4years st $23 per. I am not that excited about this, but my thoughts are in a year or two from now he is a fairly valued all star Guard who can be traded In a trade for a bigger star if need be. I would then use the other $50 million to secure some solid vets on 1 year deals.
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The Nets should pursue Horford and Irving -- aside from the karmic value -- Horford is an absolute stabilizer on and off the court.
He knows Irving good and bad, and worked well with him. And he's getting far enough below the max there is room for another rotational piece.
Horford has what, one or two good seasons left? He apparently is looking for 4 years 112 million, that's not far below the max IMO. 28 mil a season. Only way I sign him is if I am a contender next season. By contender I mean a top 3 seed.
He's never claimed to be asking for 4/112, that was a rumor that Dallas had offered it, and Dallas is claiming they didn't.
I won't be surprised if he signs for 3/72. If the Nets add both, that's a top 3 seed in the making.
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In comment 14480739 christian said:
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The Nets should pursue Horford and Irving -- aside from the karmic value -- Horford is an absolute stabilizer on and off the court.
He knows Irving good and bad, and worked well with him. And he's getting far enough below the max there is room for another rotational piece.
Horford has what, one or two good seasons left? He apparently is looking for 4 years 112 million, that's not far below the max IMO. 28 mil a season. Only way I sign him is if I am a contender next season. By contender I mean a top 3 seed.
He's never claimed to be asking for 4/112, that was a rumor that Dallas had offered it, and Dallas is claiming they didn't.
I won't be surprised if he signs for 3/72. If the Nets add both, that's a top 3 seed in the making.
That's the exact type of deal I'm hoping he takes with the Nets. I think my ideal nets offseason would be Horford, Irving, and then trading Dinwiddie to keep DLo. If Horford's AAV is $24m and Kyrie is $32m, that adds up to $56m. The Nets have at least $46m free even with DLo's cap hold, so I think clearing Dinwiddie is all they'd need to do.
That would basically make them Blazers East, but that's not so bad.
Horford is looking for a longer term deal, that is why he opted out. If he had a nice but equal showing this year, at age 34 he's not crushing the bank next offseason.
I bet he goes to a contender (the C's are rebuilding) for less than the max on 3 years.
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blindly, he knows what he is getting on the open market and he is not taking a discount
Horford is looking for a longer term deal, that is why he opted out. If he had a nice but equal showing this year, at age 34 he's not crushing the bank next offseason.
I bet he goes to a contender (the C's are rebuilding) for less than the max on 3 years.
all reports said he was talking to the celtics about a long term deal and he felt he could grt a better offer...
so onviously he is not taking that much of a discount
You were right, but if it was anywhere close to what he thinks he can get they wouldnt of broken off talks..
They have an offer from another team to make him so confident
I want nothing to do with Horford on a long-term deal. Still a very good player, but he showed his cracks last year. Career low in games played and MPG. Not enough to say he's about to fall off a cliff, but enough to give pause.
Al Horford is not bringing the Nets a championship, so why do it? If they can't get an premier FA to come with Kyrie, I'd resign D-Lo, and make a run at Tobias Harris. Probably good enough for 3-seed in the east (assuming Kawhi moves west).
Fans are split on Kyrie vs Dlo. It really all depends on who would be coming with Kyrie. I'd personally love something like retain Dlo and then sign Randle and another mid to high level guy.
This is where I'm at with this as well. Like Kyrie is a heck of a player, but he was just the star of a team that won 49 games with a better supporting cast than the Nets have. And is he really that much better than Russell? If you swapped the 2 players this past season, how many more games do the Nets win, 3, maybe 4? Why does adding him suddenly make a mediocre Nets team a contender?
I also don't get the attitude that LaVert is some kind of lock for future All-Star games. Let's see him average 14 ppg or make a decent % from 3 before we anoint him.
At this time last year everyone thought the Celtics were one of the best foundations in all NBA - so yes, I would be happy to be the Brooklyn Celtics, with the differences being Russell/Levert/Allen/Kurucs over the Celtics supporting cast. I have no idea what went wrong with the Celtics last season but the biggest underachiever on their roster by a healthy margin was Hayward - and he was also the biggest variable from their success in year 1 with Kyrie vs. year 2. So I'm inclined to believe that Stevens overplaying him may have been what disrupted their chemistry.
If the Nets got both Kyrie/Horford they'd be up against the cap but with so many young tradable pieces they would be in play for whatever came available on the trade market - as both they and Boston were for AD. Being 1 final piece away is better than being 2, 3, or 4 pieces away as long as you still have some assets you can trade. If they had to go to a 4th year for Horford that would be risky though.
The nets would have about $60m to spend without renouncing Russell's bird rights just by trading Dinwiddie - whose game is stylistically a lot more redundant to Kyrie than Russell.
The nets would have about $60m to spend without renouncing Russell's bird rights just by trading Dinwiddie - whose game is stylistically a lot more redundant to Kyrie than Russell.
I would think that the Nets wouldn't want to be paying Russell, Kyrie and lets say Harris or Butler all max deals especially with LeVert eligible for an extension next year but who knows.
I would think that the Nets wouldn't want to be paying Russell, Kyrie and lets say Harris or Butler all max deals especially with LeVert eligible for an extension next year but who knows.
It's not ideal but better than losing him for nothing IMO. If they were adding Leonard or a healthy KD you can justify just about any tradeoff because you're adding one of the top players in the NBA and becoming an instant contender. With KD getting injured and Leonard unlikely, no matter what they do this offseason they are going to be at least 1 move away. Losing a 23 year old all star for nothing seems counter productive to me.