On “The Jump” Lebron’s media guy and the ex-player said that there are many in the league now who believe Durant joins his buddy Irving and heads to the Nets.
Wonder if at that point the Nets become #1 in the NYC market and Knicks become yesterday’s news?
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I’m fine with the Nets getting these 2, let’s sign Russell if that’s the case & maintain cap flexibility.
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I do think it is kyries people talking to the nets rather than kyrie himself
I’m fine with the Nets getting these 2, let’s sign Russell if that’s the case & maintain cap flexibility.
i am fine with that, i am one of the few who wouldnt mind kyrie and another max even if that other max is not durant
and i am totally fine with russell and fill out the rest of the roster with vets...
i wont be mad if the knicms got durant but part of me doesnt want him after the injury..there is a part that thinks if they sign durant they surrender to a 3 year window and will trade some of the young guys
I don't think the Kyrie stuff is BS, I think there's mutual interest, I just don't know if he's their top choice. I tend to think he isn't because their roster is obviously pretty stacked at G (DLo, Dinwiddie, Levert) and almost empty in the front court.
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That was in 2017 and they revises that number down recently.
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Except when the Yankees stink and the Mets are good. Then it is more 50:50. If the Nets knock it out of the park they will get their fans. Barkley Center is a great venue - better than the Garden. I went to a Nets game last winter and it was a great experience as far as entertainment goes...
LOL it’s always a Yankees town, don’t kid yourself.
NY was a Met's town in the 80s whether you care to admit it or not. Steinbrenner hated all the attention the Mets got.
If I'm the Nets though, I'd keep the hell away from Kyrie. He is a cancer. Russell is a good kid and is getting better. Bring in the right kids. The Knicks just need to stay the course and develop their kids. Dolan is not interfering and is allowing Perry to do the job. I have a lot of confidence in Perry, and on an unrelated note, I feel good about what Gettleman is doing with the Giants. Let the youth be served. There's something cool about watching teams being built organically from the ground up the right way.
P.S. Windhorst is such a whore. Talk about riding LePoop's coat tails.
Kyrie is better than Russell now, but that could change in the not-too-distant future. Letting a 23 year old emerging star go for a nutjob like Kyrie is not smart imo. This guy just jobbed two franchises in a row. You think that is not going to happen again with the Nets? I think a good chance it does
Kyrie is better than Russell now, but that could change in the not-too-distant future. Letting a 23 year old emerging star go for a nutjob like Kyrie is not smart imo. This guy just jobbed two franchises in a row. You think that is not going to happen again with the Nets? I think a good chance it does
Well said. Great point about what he (this Irving douce) did to the last two franchises he was one.
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Keep Russell and build with young players
Kyrie is better than Russell now, but that could change in the not-too-distant future. Letting a 23 year old emerging star go for a nutjob like Kyrie is not smart imo. This guy just jobbed two franchises in a row. You think that is not going to happen again with the Nets? I think a good chance it does
Well said. Great point about what he (this Irving douce) did to the last two franchises he was one.
Yeah. CLE is still smarting from the championship he won them... LOL
I mean, there's cause for concern, and then there's overreaction haterade... Kyrie is a top 25 player easy.
As a Knicks fan, I think Kyrie is a fantastic player - but he's not going to be a Batman on a title team. If KD and Kyrie were coming to the Garden, I'd be good with that; thrilled, really. But even still, I don't love the Kyrie part. Mostly because he seems like a guy who will just kinda check out mentally if things aren't going the way he wants.
I'd want Kyrie if there's a player on the roster who is better than he is. Otherwise, I really don't... it's not netting a title.
In any event.... I still want the Knicks to sign KD. Assume the first year is a wash. Let RJ, Knox, Mitch and Zo get more burn and experience. Another lotto pick would be fantastic if possible. And then go from there.
Color me skeptical. EVERYTHING I've heard up to this point has said Durant does not want to go to Brooklyn although Kyrie is trying to convince him to. Bucher said KD is having some issues with the whole "You can't get hurt worse" thing with Golden State, even though his own doctors supposedly said the same thing as the Warriors' people. So it's basically GSW, NYK, Clippers, and then Brooklyn. I guess we'll see.
2) Kyrie is a weird guy, he is also not the rotten apple that he has been labeled because of the sh$tshow in Boston this year. If people who were his boss say this, I believe it.
3) Kyrie vs. Dlo. coming from a huge DLo and huge nets fan... there is really no comparison yet player wise. So if you want a better team for now and the next 4 years, Kyrie is and will be better. Also if you are a net fan and dont believe that Kyrie would adapt into the culture, then i also dont think you fully believe in the Nets culture. Its this culture that is why Kyrie, and other players are looking at the nets.
4) Caring about how many fans you have or silly crap like that... is just stupid.
5) if the nets strike out, it was still worth it... because they still have the same team moving forward... picked up a draft pick next year (that they had traded) and we go from there.
I have no idea what will happen, but i think teams like BKN and NY are just putting themselves in position to try to hit the HR.
3) Kyrie vs. Dlo. coming from a huge DLo and huge nets fan... there is really no comparison yet player wise. So if you want a better team for now and the next 4 years, Kyrie is and will be better. Also if you are a net fan and dont believe that Kyrie would adapt into the culture, then i also dont think you fully believe in the Nets culture. Its this culture that is why Kyrie, and other players are looking at the nets.
Re #1 - Harris or Horford alone would edge them closer to where Toronto was pre-Kawhi. Or where Boston was pre-Kyrie. If they added both I think they'd be a 55+ win team but not sure they can win in the playoffs unless someone really steps up. But if they add 1, they are 1 player away from being a real contender - and there's a chance Porzingas could be that guy if he hits FA next year.
Re Kyrie - I do agree that 1 factor nobody mentions is that Russell's rep was worse than Kyrie's when we first got him. That's not predictive that Kyrie will buy into the culture the same way DLo did, but it could happen, especially if that's part of the reason why he's coming here in the first place. Atkinson and Marks do things the right way and try really hard to help their players.
My biggest issues with adding Kyrie at the expense of DLo are the 4 year age difference that would narrow the window and that he's twice missed the playoffs due to injuries that required surgery. He's a great player though so I'd have no issue adding him with Russell and seeing if it can work. They've closed out plenty of games with both Dinwiddie + Russell on the floor together, so I think it's worth a shot with Irving. Then you can trade Dinwiddie for front court help.
I have no idea what will happen, but i think teams like BKN and NY are just putting themselves in position to try to hit the HR.
they might not know who they are getting, but I do think they know they have at least a few willing to sign options. So they might not know exactly which scenario will play out but that they won't strike out.
Re Kyrie - I do agree that 1 factor nobody mentions is that Russell's rep was worse than Kyrie's when we first got him. That's not predictive that Kyrie will buy into the culture the same way DLo did, but it could happen, especially if that's part of the reason why he's coming here in the first place. Atkinson and Marks do things the right way and try really hard to help their players.
I'm not sure this is true but either way Russell was just an immature kid. He was what -- 20 or 21 at the time? Kyrie is 27 and going into his 9th NBA season. The Lakers organization was (is) a mess too. This time last year, Boston's culture was considered to amongst the league's best. If Kyrie couldn't buy into what Ainge and Stevens were selling on a team that was better than the one he'd be going to than it's something I'd be wary about as it seems the Nets are.
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Re Kyrie - I do agree that 1 factor nobody mentions is that Russell's rep was worse than Kyrie's when we first got him. That's not predictive that Kyrie will buy into the culture the same way DLo did, but it could happen, especially if that's part of the reason why he's coming here in the first place. Atkinson and Marks do things the right way and try really hard to help their players.
I'm not sure this is true but either way Russell was just an immature kid. He was what -- 20 or 21 at the time? Kyrie is 27 and going into his 9th NBA season. The Lakers organization was (is) a mess too. This time last year, Boston's culture was considered to amongst the league's best. If Kyrie couldn't buy into what Ainge and Stevens were selling on a team that was better than the one he'd be going to than it's something I'd be wary about as it seems the Nets are.
Did Al Horford also not buy in? Why does he want out? Most of the reports say the biggest reason boston was a mess this year was Stevens overplayed Hayward at the expense of others and it rubbed the young wins the wrong way (Tatum, Brown and obviously Hayward were the ones who disappointing years, not Irving). Considering Irving has been there for 2 years and there were no issues year 1 and Boston continues to want to resign him, I don't think it's entirely obvious he was the issue.
Also when the Nets traded for Russell yes he was a kid, but Magic gave up on him literally because he didn't think he could ever be a leader and do what he did this past season. It was a direct quote. Aside from that many also questioned how good he'd ever be on the court and whether he even had a natural position. Talent is not a concern with Kyrie, but the former is still a fair question, as it was with Russell when he arrived. I don't think the age difference makes much difference however. Guys can get more mature at any age - and often it does take some adversity to buy into coaching.
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There are 3 levels of "Max" Contracts that exist in the current NBA CBA. For the purposes of our discussion, all that is relevant for fitting a player into your cap is their starting year salary. (If you want to know how players are financially incentivized to stay with their current team, players can re-sign with their current team for a 5-year deal instead of a 4-year deal and the current team can also offer them up to 8% raises every year while the new team can only offer 5% raises.) For players with 0-6 years in the NBA it can start at 25% of the cap in the first year. For players with 7-9 years can start at 30% of the cap in the first year. And lastly, any player with 10 or more years of experience can start at 35% of the cap. This is going to come into play depending on who the Nets choose to pursue.
Years of Experience Qualifying Players Starting Max Salary
10+ Kevin Durant, Al Hoford $38,150,000
7-9 Kyrie Irving, Kawhi Leonard, Jimmy Butler, Tobias Harris $32,700,000
0-6 D'Angelo Russell, Julius Randle $27,250,000
Keep in mind you can effectively subtract $897,158 from these figures because signing a player would clear one of the incomplete roster holds.
FAQ4. Can we currently sign Kyrie and KD? If not, how can we clear up space? As we are right now, even renouncing all cap holds and cutting Napier and Graham, we're a tiny bit short of the space required to sign both Kyrie and KD. We have $68,672,292 of space but need $69,055,684 ($38,150,000+$32,700,000-$897,158-$897,158). That means we're effectively $383,392 short which could be achieved by trading Musa away or maybe even have Kyrie and KD take a little bit less to fit them in without making a trade.
FAQ5. Can we sign D'Angelo Russell, Kyrie Irving, and another max contract? If so, what moves are necessary?
Since a lot of the media rumblings have Kyrie committed to the Nets and a lot of Nets fans want to keep DLo as well, I've seen this question a lot. And the answer is...it depends. If the two non-DLo players in question are Kyrie + KD, there needs to be around $69,055,684 in cap space. If the two non-DLo players in question are Kyrie + Kawhi/Butler/Tobias there needs to be around $63,605,684. The best way to go about this would be to not renounce DLo's cap hold so he can count for $21,059,094 against the cap while we go out and use up the open cap space.
Player 2019-20 Cap Hit
Spencer Dinwiddie $10,605,084
Joe Harris $7,666,667
Taurean Prince $3,481,986
Caris LeVert $2,625,718
Jarrett Allen $2,376,840
Dzanan Musa $1,911,600
Rodions Kurucs $1,699,236
D'Angelo Russell [Cap Hold] $21,059,094
Deron Williams [Dead Cap] $5,474,787
Incomplete Roster Charge ($897,158 x 4) $3,588,632
Total $60,489,644
Projected Salary Cap $109,000,000
Cap Space $48,510,356
Adding that to the cap sheet and subtracting one of the incomplete roster charges leaves us $48,510,356 in cap space.
Magic is a fool. He saw a shiny new toy in Ball that reminded him of himself and gave up on Russell as a result. I wouldn't use his opinion as anything reflecting reality.
Age is of course important. Were you as mature at 21 as you were at 27? I certainly wasn't and most people aren't. It's well understood that the parts of the human brain related to maturity (good judgement, awareness of long-term consequences) aren't fully formed until age 24 or so on average.
When things don't go his way he bails. That's not the type of guy I frankly want to build a team around.
Stevens did a bad job this season, no doubt. But he's still one of the best coaches in basketball and players respect him.
Irving had a problem with nearly everyone by the end. Stevens, Ainge, Rozier, Brown, and Tatum. At some point you have to identify the common variable.
If Nets and Celtics effectively swap point guards (which I think the Celtics will definitely pursue Russel if available), I won't be surprised if the Celtics are a better team even with out Horford.
I'm by no means a Kyrie superfan - i've said in this thread I'd rather just keep russell because he's a known quantity for the Nets and 4 years younger, with less injury history. Neither player is a true #1. But Kyrie is a very good player and calling him a cancer isn't really backed up by all that much.
Warriors with Draymond becoming a FA and Klay coming off an ACL?
Nets with Kyrie, Joe Harris, Allen and Prince
or Knicks with Knox, Barrett, DSJ, Mitch, another lotto 1st and another max slot?
I think you can definitely make the argument it's the Knicks.
23 year old All-Star is finally getting some love.
I'm by no means a Kyrie superfan - i've said in this thread I'd rather just keep russell because he's a known quantity for the Nets and 4 years younger, with less injury history. Neither player is a true #1. But Kyrie is a very good player and calling him a cancer isn't really backed up by all that much.
I actually didn't say any of that. I didn't say he can't mature nor did I call him a cancer...
When things don't go his way he bails. That's not the type of guy I frankly want to build a team around.
Stevens did a bad job this season, no doubt. But he's still one of the best coaches in basketball and players respect him.
Irving had a problem with nearly everyone by the end. Stevens, Ainge, Rozier, Brown, and Tatum. At some point you have to identify the common variable.
If Nets and Celtics effectively swap point guards (which I think the Celtics will definitely pursue Russel if available), I won't be surprised if the Celtics are a better team even with out Horford.
This is not an unfair post but it's also reading into some things and assigning meaning where there may or may not be. Kawhi pushed his way out from Greg Popovich. I think it's stupid for any player to ask out of a team Lebron is on but sometimes things happen behind the scenes and Kyrie was like 24 at the time. Kyrie's 2 years in Boston are tough to assign value/blame - by the numbers he was their best player both years but it obviously just didn't work out. It could work out at his next step or it could not - but I don't think it's pre-determined that he's headcase. I don't think he's Stephon Marbury, but he could be - that's why I'd prefer to keep DLo if it comes down to a choice.
And yes, that Nets team is better.
No, it’s not close.
Barrett and the hypothetical future pick are lotto tickets. We have no idea what they are right now. No one is making a decision based on them. Is it possible Barrett becomes an all-star early on and you hit paydirt next year? Of course. Is it possible you have two more lottery busts? Yes.
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but Kyrie Irving can't possibly develop more maturity with whoever his new team ends up being? Why do I think that opinion would change if signed with whatever team you root for.
I'm by no means a Kyrie superfan - i've said in this thread I'd rather just keep russell because he's a known quantity for the Nets and 4 years younger, with less injury history. Neither player is a true #1. But Kyrie is a very good player and calling him a cancer isn't really backed up by all that much.
I actually didn't say any of that. I didn't say he can't mature nor did I call him a cancer...
you responded to a post that was effecitvely "Kyrie could mature the same way Russell did" by saying "im not sure that's true" and listing reasons why. That kind of implies not thinking he can mature, but no point belaboring it if we're both in agreement that there's a possibility he's not a cancer and could mature in whatever new environment he ends up at.
Warriors with Draymond becoming a FA and Klay coming off an ACL?
Nets with Kyrie, Joe Harris, Allen and Prince
or Knicks with Knox, Barrett, DSJ, Mitch, another lotto 1st and another max slot?
I think you can definitely make the argument it's the Knicks.
It's the Warriors and it's not close unless Barrett becomes a superstar in his second year (HIGHLY unlikely).
This is why KD to the Nets makes no sense to me. If it's about winning and he's not as confident that he can carry a team as he once was when he comes back then he should absolutely go back to GS. If it's about his legacy, brand, etc and he's confident he'll get back to where he was and wants to prove he's the best player in the world then the Knicks make the most sense.
No disrespect to Net fans on here but they sort of sit #2 amongst all of the contributing factors which isn't at all to say anything negative about the Nets. Maybe post-achilles injury that's the compromise he feels like he needs to make?
And yes, that Nets team is better.
No, it’s not close.
Barrett and the hypothetical future pick are lotto tickets. We have no idea what they are right now. No one is making a decision based on them. Is it possible Barrett becomes an all-star early on and you hit paydirt next year? Of course. Is it possible you have two more lottery busts? Yes.
I forgot about LaVert. Who else? Dinwiddie and Jared Dudley? Lets not pretend that the Nets have some stacked roster.
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I like Irving and I hope he succeeds at the team of his choosing, but he wasn't happy on a championship team with the best player in the world and pushed his way out, he announced unnecessarily he was going to stay in Boston publicly, and after a tough season where they still won a playoff series he wants out.
When things don't go his way he bails. That's not the type of guy I frankly want to build a team around.
Stevens did a bad job this season, no doubt. But he's still one of the best coaches in basketball and players respect him.
Irving had a problem with nearly everyone by the end. Stevens, Ainge, Rozier, Brown, and Tatum. At some point you have to identify the common variable.
If Nets and Celtics effectively swap point guards (which I think the Celtics will definitely pursue Russel if available), I won't be surprised if the Celtics are a better team even with out Horford.
This is not an unfair post but it's also reading into some things and assigning meaning where there may or may not be. Kawhi pushed his way out from Greg Popovich. I think it's stupid for any player to ask out of a team Lebron is on but sometimes things happen behind the scenes and Kyrie was like 24 at the time. Kyrie's 2 years in Boston are tough to assign value/blame - by the numbers he was their best player both years but it obviously just didn't work out. It could work out at his next step or it could not - but I don't think it's pre-determined that he's headcase. I don't think he's Stephon Marbury, but he could be - that's why I'd prefer to keep DLo if it comes down to a choice.
I don't think he's a head case, I just don't think he's the kind of person who has the mental toughness to withstand hard situations and lead a team out of it.
Leornard is such an outlying case -- maybe Irving is that type of guy but if I'm a GM I'm not counting on it.
I appreciate Irving, I like him and I wish him well. I don't want him to stay on the team I pull for, and I'd rather the Celtics get busy rebuilding. I don't know if ever been happy a great player is leaving my team.
Like I said, maybe he's much happier in the team of his choosing and succeeds.
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more about Durant, who is going to have the best situation in 2020, when he'll actually be able to play?
Warriors with Draymond becoming a FA and Klay coming off an ACL?
Nets with Kyrie, Joe Harris, Allen and Prince
or Knicks with Knox, Barrett, DSJ, Mitch, another lotto 1st and another max slot?
I think you can definitely make the argument it's the Knicks.
It's the Warriors and it's not close unless Barrett becomes a superstar in his second year (HIGHLY unlikely).
This is why KD to the Nets makes no sense to me. If it's about winning and he's not as confident that he can carry a team as he once was when he comes back then he should absolutely go back to GS. If it's about his legacy, brand, etc and he's confident he'll get back to where he was and wants to prove he's the best player in the world then the Knicks make the most sense.
No disrespect to Net fans on here but they sort of sit #2 amongst all of the contributing factors which isn't at all to say anything negative about the Nets. Maybe post-achilles injury that's the compromise he feels like he needs to make?
Part of me wishes Durant agreed with you, but it certainly sounds like he doesn’t.
There is a massive drop off between the Warriors (60 win team without KD), the Nets (50 win team without KD) and Knicks (25 win team without KD).
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more about Durant, who is going to have the best situation in 2020, when he'll actually be able to play?
Warriors with Draymond becoming a FA and Klay coming off an ACL?
Nets with Kyrie, Joe Harris, Allen and Prince
or Knicks with Knox, Barrett, DSJ, Mitch, another lotto 1st and another max slot?
I think you can definitely make the argument it's the Knicks.
It's the Warriors and it's not close unless Barrett becomes a superstar in his second year (HIGHLY unlikely).
This is why KD to the Nets makes no sense to me. If it's about winning and he's not as confident that he can carry a team as he once was when he comes back then he should absolutely go back to GS. If it's about his legacy, brand, etc and he's confident he'll get back to where he was and wants to prove he's the best player in the world then the Knicks make the most sense.
No disrespect to Net fans on here but they sort of sit #2 amongst all of the contributing factors which isn't at all to say anything negative about the Nets. Maybe post-achilles injury that's the compromise he feels like he needs to make?
I think this is all fair but I think there's one aspect of this being overlooked or not factored in enough. If you go back to the Warriors then you are pretty much expected to win. Championship or bust. If you go to someone like the Nets, you still have a great situation and the ability/situation to win, but it alleviates that win or bust perception. The Nets or Knicks, with their young role players, would still be expected to win, but it isn't this superstar team.
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You left off multiple Nets players. Including some of their best.
And yes, that Nets team is better.
No, it’s not close.
Barrett and the hypothetical future pick are lotto tickets. We have no idea what they are right now. No one is making a decision based on them. Is it possible Barrett becomes an all-star early on and you hit paydirt next year? Of course. Is it possible you have two more lottery busts? Yes.
I forgot about LaVert. Who else? Dinwiddie and Jared Dudley? Lets not pretend that the Nets have some stacked roster.
The Nets over under is going to be in the 50s if they sign Kyrie. They are pretty good.
Leornard is such an outlying case -- maybe Irving is that type of guy but if I'm a GM I'm not counting on it.
I appreciate Irving, I like him and I wish him well. I don't want him to stay on the team I pull for, and I'd rather the Celtics get busy rebuilding. I don't know if ever been happy a great player is leaving my team.
Like I said, maybe he's much happier in the team of his choosing and succeeds.
I'm mostly in agreement. I don't love the player - he wouldn't be in my top few targets if I was the Nets GM. But if I could get him without losing DLo I'd roll the dice on his talent and hope that he matures.
I'm very confident the Knicks will sign Durant. I think when the dust settles, and the emotions settle, no one else is giving Durant a max to redshirt a year.
The Warriors' total tax and payroll would be 300M+ if they max Durant and Thompson. I don't see them paying over a billion dollars to keep the core together for the next 4 years.
There is an irrational part of me that wants to sign him because Knicks (and other NBA) fans literally cannot comprehend it happening. Despite the fact that the Nets have clearly proven themselves as the better organization with the better team. Some, not all, of these fans appear to have not ever watched the Nets play or have mostly skipped out on following the NBA in the last three years because their team has been atrocious and are sticking to their same tired tropes about fanbases/how the Nets have no good players.
The rational part of me doesn’t want to sign him because it’s not entirely clear it’s the right thing for sustained winning (though I defer to the front office as they clearly know how to build a team).
The rational side is winning, right now. Hope that is true for the front office as well.
He knows Irving good and bad, and worked well with him. And he's getting far enough below the max there is room for another rotational piece.
He knows Irving good and bad, and worked well with him. And he's getting far enough below the max there is room for another rotational piece.
Horford has what, one or two good seasons left? He apparently is looking for 4 years 112 million, that's not far below the max IMO. 28 mil a season. Only way I sign him is if I am a contender next season. By contender I mean a top 3 seed.
I think it's even more pathetic to resign both teams to failure.
I agree. But the issue is Nets fans constantly ripping on the Knicks and acting like the Nets have won back to back to back championships. The Nets just barely finished .500 and got curb stomped in the first round.
The Nets are better than the Knicks right now. But I’ve never in my life seen a fanbase so ecstatic about utter mediocrity. Everyone on the team is awesome! Yet they barely managed to scrape out a playoff birth in the horrible East. I’m glad they’re satisfied with that. But please, get out of the first round before running your mouths.
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Neither team is very good, lol. It’s like the contest to be the tallest midget. Personally, I’d love for them to get Kyrie. Seems like a great culture guy.
I agree. But the issue is Nets fans constantly ripping on the Knicks and acting like the Nets have won back to back to back championships. The Nets just barely finished .500 and got curb stomped in the first round.
The Nets are better than the Knicks right now. But I’ve never in my life seen a fanbase so ecstatic about utter mediocrity. Everyone on the team is awesome! Yet they barely managed to scrape out a playoff birth in the horrible East. I’m glad they’re satisfied with that. But please, get out of the first round before running your mouths.
Not a nets fan but I think knick fans are more insufferable. Claiming to be the mecca of basketball and not even having a playoff birth since Ewing to hold their hat on. Neither team has been good but the nets have at least had some success the last 20 years