How are we all feeling? Personally, I like what they’re doing. The highlights:
-Young, hungry players on short term contracts competing. Hopefully this helps everyone get better.
-All future draft picks in place in addition to picks from the KP trade.
-Maintaining cap flexibility going forward.
If there is one thing I’ve realized, tanking is way overblown. The Knicks don’t be a FA destination until they win. Going out there and competing is the next thing for them right now. Need to build a culture.
I'm actually more pissed off that the Lakers are having their way again, mainly due to LeBron's business connections than I am about KD/Irving going to Brooklyn.
I was on here pretty much begging for reasons to get excited about Durant coming to NYK and I could never wrap my head around it. His next time on the court will be at 32 with a surgically repaired achilles tendon. Don't even get me started on Kyrie Irving.
I wanted (a healthy) Kevin Durant and Anthony Davis when the offseason started and KD's injury killed both of those birds with one stone.
Draft, develop, compete. That's what the Knicks need to do right now.
Is Knox playing in the Summer League?
To a lesser extent I'm excited to watch Randle play as I loved him at Kentucky.
There's not much more than that, but it's a start.
The 3 bigs the knicks signed. Julius Randle has the biggest upside obviously, the second half of last year was 25 and 11 and had a +6 WS. I think he has all star potential and will be the number 1 or 2 scoring option on this team..
All 4 bigs on this team are interchangeable, you can play any 2 and it will work. That is important for roster flexibility, you dont have 2 guys for the same spot, everyone can play together.
Bullock and Ellington, 3 point shooters off the bench or you can put one next to smith and barrett to spread the floor when they drive to the paint.
Payton is a distributor, has not really taken off like people have wanted to and will be interesting the camp battle between him and smith jr.
People will say the knicks added a lot of nothing, they added a lot of dpeth around their young team, that can play with their young players rather than take shots away from their young players. I dont think this group of "vets" will just be looking for theirs like hardaway, burke and kanter.
if i told you they would sign a 23 year old that averaged 20 and 9 on 53 percent shooting you wouldnt be happy?
Is Knox playing in the Summer League?
yes and so is trier and robinson
Huh? This was the first year they tanked so how can this be rinse and repeat? How many years have we been players in FA for top tier FA? Twice over like a decade? Your perception is out of whack.
Well in the past they would've signed those C & D level players to 4-5 year deals, so that's a positive change...
The NETs wont win....so who cares where FA went.
Until the next Shaq, Magic, Jordon or LeBron gets in the league.....the winners are usually predetermined by a group of players
The NETs wont win....so who cares where FA went.
Until the next Shaq, Magic, Jordon or LeBron gets in the league.....the winners are usually predetermined by a group of players
was it predetermined last year?
aimrocky : 8:47 am : link : reply
about what they've done. Every off-season feels like it's rinse and repeat... Tank, lose the lottery, strike out on Free Agency, sign lesser C & D level free agents to 1 or 2 year deals then turn the roster over again next year.
Once Durant went down, the tea leaves all were turning up to say that Irving is going to implode the locker room and Durant is going to come back a hobbled, old man.
Is that really what people wanted?
I could have gotten behind a Leonard/Davis pairing, but barring that, the path the Knicks are taking is pretty damn solid.
And this isn't what they've done in the past. The past gives you Noah on a terrible contracts and a lot of similar moves.
The 3 bigs the knicks signed. Julius Randle has the biggest upside obviously, the second half of last year was 25 and 11 and had a +6 WS. I think he has all star potential and will be the number 1 or 2 scoring option on this team..
All 4 bigs on this team are interchangeable, you can play any 2 and it will work. That is important for roster flexibility, you dont have 2 guys for the same spot, everyone can play together.
Bullock and Ellington, 3 point shooters off the bench or you can put one next to smith and barrett to spread the floor when they drive to the paint.
Payton is a distributor, has not really taken off like people have wanted to and will be interesting the camp battle between him and smith jr.
People will say the knicks added a lot of nothing, they added a lot of dpeth around their young team, that can play with their young players rather than take shots away from their young players. I dont think this group of "vets" will just be looking for theirs like hardaway, burke and kanter.
Yea I agree they did a nice combo of adding young guys/vets and fitting it into a roster with bigs/shooters and a PG who averaged of 7 assists a game last year. Not an all star group, but something we can build with. In a round table I was watching last night with someone, Ramona Shelbourne and Scottie Pippen Shelbourne actually tepidly said she liked the talent the Knicks added and could see them making a run at the 7th or 8th seed, but quickly shut it down as not to disrupt the narrative that we are a total shit show and an embarrassment.
Ugh, you are the worst.
Is there an internet sandbox we can all tell you to go play in whenever you're annoying? Which is basically every post you make.
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about what they've done. Every off-season feels like it's rinse and repeat... Tank, lose the lottery, strike out on Free Agency, sign lesser C & D level free agents to 1 or 2 year deals then turn the roster over again next year.
if i told you they would sign a 23 year old that averaged 20 and 9 on 53 percent shooting you wouldnt be happy?
I like the Randle signing in a vacuum, but it's nothing to get excited about.
Robbie, yes this may be their first foray into the top tier free agency in the past decade, but every off-season we get the Hezonja's, Derrick Williams', Michael Beasley of the league and are convinced the Knicks can turn chicken soup out of chicken shit. This team will not win a title this season, and very well may not make the playoffs. I'm not getting excited because the Knicks filled out the roster with cagey vets who can get us to 30 wins.
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I'm not sure how anyone can be excited
aimrocky : 8:47 am : link : reply
about what they've done. Every off-season feels like it's rinse and repeat... Tank, lose the lottery, strike out on Free Agency, sign lesser C & D level free agents to 1 or 2 year deals then turn the roster over again next year.
Once Durant went down, the tea leaves all were turning up to say that Irving is going to implode the locker room and Durant is going to come back a hobbled, old man.
Is that really what people wanted?
I could have gotten behind a Leonard/Davis pairing, but barring that, the path the Knicks are taking is pretty damn solid.
And this isn't what they've done in the past. The past gives you Noah on a terrible contracts and a lot of similar moves.
I get it. Their subsequent moves are fine. I'm not debating that. Exciting? Hardly... It feels like kicking the can down the road.
Now, if they can develop these kids, then it'll get exciting.
I dont think most would agree with that. Last year was the first season they were honestly tanking. It was a point of frustration for multiple seasons before that they seemed to not want to do it.
Also, I dont think you can say them taking the responsible approach and getting decent players on team option short term deals is "rinse and repeat". You can be dissatisfied with them not winning the lottery and free agents choosing not to be here, but the basketball decisions have been okay. That definitely isnt rinse and repeat for this franchise.
you continue to prove you have no idea what you are talking about
I think coach Fiz is a great communicator and he helps this group over achieve.
Yeah I think this is what sets this aside with recent signing sprees. is that with the exception of Randle, who can be a core piece down the road, the rest are complimentary pieces and probably realize that (I think Portis & Payton probably think they can compete for big minutes and thats fine) Obviously the key is the development of Knox/RJ/DSJ/Mitch that will be the barometer of how high we can go. The perception thing can change quickly around here. Knicks fans are some of the most loyal/knowledgeable in the league. We are starving for good basketball and wins. You can see it at the Garden. Through this mess of 20 years whenever the Knicks are remotely competitive the Garden rocks like few other buildings can. Even a 40 win team will change the perception. Sure some of the ogres around here feel that unless you are a title contender you are shit and wasting your time, but that's not the city in general.
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The NBA season is a waste of my time.
The NETs wont win....so who cares where FA went.
Until the next Shaq, Magic, Jordon or LeBron gets in the league.....the winners are usually predetermined by a group of players
was it predetermined last year?
Can’t bank on guys like Klay Thompson and Kevin Durant getting hurt every year. If the Lakers land Kawhi they are two tiers ahead of the next best team. Leonard just dragged an above average Raptors roster to the championship, what’s he going to do with Lebron and Anthony Davis?
As a Knicks fan, I couldn’t care less about that, our window start 2 years from now. There are plenty of other reasons to still get league pass and watch some of the other young up and coming teams, but Leonard to the Lakers would take away pretty much all of the suspense around the playoffs.
You should be able to get excited about the chance to see what Barrett, Mitch, and Knox can become. Funny thing is we are probably better next season then we would have been if we signed KD.
I understand that can change in the future, and I don't advocate giving out reckless long term contracts but I wish the focus was more on attaining better talent than about preserving cap flexibility.
I'm excited for Mitch and Barrett, those are the 2 that I think can really become stars. I'm not giving up on Knox or DSJ but I'd like to see some improvement.
I don't get the post crapping on Fizdale.
As for the renting capspace, we dont know if that is a thing right now. We saw exactly one trade so far that was picks for capspace, ONE. And since most big FA have signed i doubt we see more. Will there be in season opportunities, maybe, shoudl the knicks have saved like 10 mill in space, probably, but we dont know. Its like there were teams just throwing around first round picks and the knicks werent interested.
I'm with you on this.
However, I also agree with those who say it's a prove-it year for Fiz. Let's see these players develop and gel.
But they need to win. Or at least have good players in place. So basically while we're sucking these next couple of years the top priority needs to be developing RJ, Randle and Robinson. And hitting on players in the draft with their and Dallas's picks. If the nucleus develops into near all star levels, it will be much easier to lure people to the Knicks because it's obvious that the mystique of the Garden or whatever is overshadowed by either the awfulness of the team for the last 30 years or Dolan or both.
Agree that not getting this current version of Durant is not the end of the world. But to me, if they're truly playing the long term game, they could have used the space to acquire a pick or two. I get why they brought in a guy like Taj Gibson, but I think you can get a similar vet for the room exception or even the minimum at some point. You don't need to give him $10 million.
As for the renting capspace, we dont know if that is a thing right now. We saw exactly one trade so far that was picks for capspace, ONE.
there's been 3 of them in the last few days. And they can happen in-season as well.
On Randle, he has talent, but I think he will be a soft stats guy, where he can produce for a bad team.
The season is all about the development of Barrett/Knox/Robinson/DSJ, but I have a feeling they will try to get the 8th seed and we will see too much of Ellington/Bullock/Taj to get some wins as they will play defense.
NYGiants13 is correct they will be well positioned to get the next start the demands a trade, but with guys like Woj/Marks and others constantly downgrading the Knicks talent, it is never easy for them. I still remember before the draft, Woj calling it a 2 person draft and downplaying Barrett.
Dolan really kills the Knicks because of his persona as much as his meddling.
A torned Achilles and LCL was only way to prevent the obvious outcome.
Harkless and the Wizards trade. Wizards only got a #2 but they got cheap young players as opposed to bad contracts.
As for the renting capspace, we dont know if that is a thing right now. We saw exactly one trade so far that was picks for capspace, ONE. And since most big FA have signed i doubt we see more. Will there be in season opportunities, maybe, shoudl the knicks have saved like 10 mill in space, probably, but we dont know. Its like there were teams just throwing around first round picks and the knicks werent interested.
I understand your first point and it’s fair. But if I were the Knicks i would have targeted Randle, Reddick, Brogdon and Looney. Pay more for those guys on longer deals but getting better players. You can always trade a quality guy like that.
As for the picks, there was one at the draft and 2 in free agency that exchanged 1st round picks in salary dumps. And the last 2 were for expiring contracts- not the Wiggins/Wall deals. I have no idea why the Knicks weren’t in on this.
This is so unlike the Knicks.
They avoided the temptation to make a splash and they are attempting to grow organically.
I don't know if this team building will work, but, I do know that the old Knicks methodology failed miserably.
I am willing to give this process a chance.
There is something to look forward to. To see the development of these young players.
In two years this will be a success if the Knicks can have a competitive team and develop their own home grown talent.
If this occurs the Knicks will become a destination for future stars and the Knicks will have a core waiting for a super star.
Perry did a good job maintaining cap flexibility; so they can have a max in 2020 or 2021. And they have six first round picks over the next four years.
This upcoming season is all about the development of RJ and Robinson, the two with the highest ceilings; turning Knox at least into a competent starter and getting DSJ learning to pass first and defend.
I really can't see DSJ being anything more than a role player; sure something may click but at the end of the day to me he is nothing more than a inferior Steve Francis clone. The lack of growth in his game in year two really has me down on him. Randle's statline was impressive at the end of the season except for in the one aspect that's hard to quantify; defense. He had by far his best defensive season of his career and he ranked something like 30th percentile in the league at PF in defensive metrics, up from like 5th percentile the year before. Could there be continued growth? Sure; but color me skeptical that any player gets better on defense when they put on the orange and blue. I'll give you Barrett and Robinson as reasons to be excited for the season, I do very much look forward to seeing them, but Knox has a lot to prove this year and by no means am I going to write him off yet but again years of seeing the Knicks "player development" again color me extremely skeptical until true growth is seen and another poor season and his value will be shot just like Frenchie irregardless of how young he is. Something could click for all of these guys as they are all still very young, but years of seeing young, talented but flawed players come through the Knicks and never progress basically kills the optimist in me at this point.
could he be the oldest guy in the summer league?
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..
could he be the oldest guy in the summer league?
no there are some guys that play overseas that play summer league who are 27 28 years old
Where's the full roster? I mean we're 3 days out...
...torture yourselves?
...torture yourselves?
Hey, we may actually be really good in Summer League
I also think we will still be pretty bad. we have a little more shooting and defense but the PG depth chart is still a tire fire at this point. Three young guys with varying degrees of potential - but not a single adult in the room. Hard to win in today's NBA without competent guard play.
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...torture yourselves?
Hey, we may actually be really good in Summer League
But not Nate Robinson, David Lee, Renaldo Balkman Summer League good. Their jerseys are in the rafters.
per HoopsHype - I can't vouch for its correctness:
New York Knicks (Vegas Summer League)
PLAYER POS HT AGE EXP LAST TEAM
Allonzo Trier SG 6-5 23 1 Knicks
Amir Hinton PG 6-5 22 0 Shaw (NCAA II)
Ignas BrazdeikisSF 6-6 20 0 Michigan
Kenny Wooten PF 6-9 21 0 Oregon
Kevin Knox SF 6-9 19 1 Knicks
Kris Wilkes SG 6-6 20 0 UCLA
Lamar Peters PG 6-0 21 0 Miss. St.
Markel Crawford SG 6-4 24 0 Memphis (G)
Mitchell RobinsonC 7-1 21 1 Knicks
RJ Barrett SG 6-7 19 0 Duke
Speedy Smith PG 6-3 26 0 Grand Rapids (G)
Tim Bond SF 6-6 23 0 Rio Grande (G)
Tyler Cavanaugh PF 6-9 25 2 Utah Jazz
VJ King SF 6-6 22 0 Louisville
Zak Irvin SG 6-6 24 0 Westchester (G)
Playing professional basketball is why they signed these vets. They're there to compete with and show these kids how to be pros. The pressure on Fiz for me is to REQUIRE defense from the 6 kids under the age of 25 who will be in the rotation. Like everyone else, I don't think much of DSJ. He needs to get into making his teammates better as opposed to making highlight plays.
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Where's the full roster? I mean we're 3 days out...
per HoopsHype - I can't vouch for its correctness:
New York Knicks (Vegas Summer League)
PLAYER POS HT AGE EXP LAST TEAM
Allonzo Trier SG 6-5 23 1 Knicks
Amir Hinton PG 6-5 22 0 Shaw (NCAA II)
Ignas BrazdeikisSF 6-6 20 0 Michigan
Kenny Wooten PF 6-9 21 0 Oregon
Kevin Knox SF 6-9 19 1 Knicks
Kris Wilkes SG 6-6 20 0 UCLA
Lamar Peters PG 6-0 21 0 Miss. St.
Markel Crawford SG 6-4 24 0 Memphis (G)
Mitchell RobinsonC 7-1 21 1 Knicks
RJ Barrett SG 6-7 19 0 Duke
Speedy Smith PG 6-3 26 0 Grand Rapids (G)
Tim Bond SF 6-6 23 0 Rio Grande (G)
Tyler Cavanaugh PF 6-9 25 2 Utah Jazz
VJ King SF 6-6 22 0 Louisville
Zak Irvin SG 6-6 24 0 Westchester (G)
No Loose Labia or Onion? Pfft
Ignas Brazdeikis: This will be the first look at New York’s 2019 second-round pick. Brazdeikis played one season at Michigan.
RJ Barrett: The most anticipated player to see on this roster, Barrett will make his Knicks debut. All eyes are on him for the opening matchup.
Tyler Cavanaugh: This is a former two-way player with the Utah Jazz.
Markel Crawford: Crawford went undrafted in 2018 and spent last year in the G League.
Henry Ellenson: A former first-round pick, Ellenson joined the Knicks after the Detroit Pistons released him earlier this year. He will look to get his career on track with a standout performance in Vegas.
Amir Hinton: Hinton was Division II’s leading scorer. He went undrafted, but signed with the Knicks hours after the draft.
Zak Irvin: Irvin had stints with the Knicks’ G-League team.
VJ King: King never lived up to the hype at Louisville as a five-star recruit. Nonetheless, he left school early and will show if his skills translate to the NBA.
Kevin Knox: How much of a run Knox receives remains unknown, but this is his chance for a nice shooting night or two.
Lamar Peters: Peters went undrafted after three seasons at Mississippi State.
Allonzo Trier: Like Knox, Trier might not need the extensive run, but it gets him reps.
Mitchell Robinson: The same for Knox and Trier applies for Robinson. Maybe he tests a new part of his game.
Kenny Smith: Not the Kenny Smith that played in the ’90s and does studios work for TNT, but a former four-year man at Louisiana Tech.
Andrew White III: White has jumped around the G League since the 2017 NBA Draft.
Kenny Wooten: Wooten went undrafted in June, but is an intriguing shot-blocking talent.
BUT, they did not overreact and toss bad contracts around to handicap them. The goal is now to develop their youth I. Preparation of 2021. You could argue they could made better use if the space, like absorbing bad contracts to get more picks, as the clippers got a first rd pick out of the Heat. But the Knicks FO isn't that savvy
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Where's the full roster? I mean we're 3 days out...
per HoopsHype - I can't vouch for its correctness:
New York Knicks (Vegas Summer League)
PLAYER POS HT AGE EXP LAST TEAM
Allonzo Trier SG 6-5 23 1 Knicks
Amir Hinton PG 6-5 22 0 Shaw (NCAA II)
Ignas BrazdeikisSF 6-6 20 0 Michigan
Kenny Wooten PF 6-9 21 0 Oregon
Kevin Knox SF 6-9 19 1 Knicks
Kris Wilkes SG 6-6 20 0 UCLA
Lamar Peters PG 6-0 21 0 Miss. St.
Markel Crawford SG 6-4 24 0 Memphis (G)
Mitchell RobinsonC 7-1 21 1 Knicks
RJ Barrett SG 6-7 19 0 Duke
Speedy Smith PG 6-3 26 0 Grand Rapids (G)
Tim Bond SF 6-6 23 0 Rio Grande (G)
Tyler Cavanaugh PF 6-9 25 2 Utah Jazz
VJ King SF 6-6 22 0 Louisville
Zak Irvin SG 6-6 24 0 Westchester (G)
Other than the lock players on the roster I'm interested in King, Cavanaugh and Hinton
I found one book with the win totals but this could obviously change. Cavs and Hornets are the only teams below the Knicks at 23.5 wins. Knicks and Grizzlies are 26.5 wins and Wizards are 27.5.
Is this roster 10 wins better than last years team?
Frank is skipping to play for France. Knox is on the roster.
I found one book with the win totals but this could obviously change. Cavs and Hornets are the only teams below the Knicks at 23.5 wins. Knicks and Grizzlies are 26.5 wins and Wizards are 27.5.
Is this roster 10 wins better than last years team?
They lost a lot of close games last season. They weren't the worst team or even second worst in terms of point differential. It's certainly possible.
The Knicks still will have a weak roster, but I can't see any way they end up worse than last season and they actually should have had 5-7 more wins if they were more consistent in the 4th quarter or didn't, ahem, tank....
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I wouldn't worry about competing for the 8th seed and being in no mans land. They will enter the year with one of the worst rosters in the league.
I found one book with the win totals but this could obviously change. Cavs and Hornets are the only teams below the Knicks at 23.5 wins. Knicks and Grizzlies are 26.5 wins and Wizards are 27.5.
Is this roster 10 wins better than last years team?
They lost a lot of close games last season. They weren't the worst team or even second worst in terms of point differential. It's certainly possible.
lol c'mon. They were 3rd at 9.2, Phoenix 9.4 and Cleveland 9.6. Factually, yes they weren't 1st or 2nd worst but you're talking about .2 points away from second worst and .4 from worst. They should be better but point differential doesn't really tell us that. The roster turnover likely does.
The Knicks still will have a weak roster, but I can't see any way they end up worse than last season and they actually should have had 5-7 more wins if they were more consistent in the 4th quarter or didn't, ahem, tank....
Pretty cool knowing we have their 2nd, sucks we don't have our own however. Wish we had both.
if they win 35 games 19 and 20 yesr old kids can not get better and win more gsmes the next year?
if they win 17 games again that means guys like knox, randle, robinson did not improve and barrett was not very good
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What's the point of that?
if they win 35 games 19 and 20 yesr old kids can not get better and win more gsmes the next year?
if they win 17 games again that means guys like knox, randle, robinson did not improve and barrett was not very good
All due respect but I think "everyone" would sign for 35 wins if it's because Barrett, Mitch and Knox etc are really good. The concern (and more likely scenario) is winning 35 games because Randle "Kanter's" then to a few more wins, Payton is better than DSJ/Frank and Portis, Gibson etc are solid but not part of the future of this team. It comes down to "how".
Barrett, knox and mitchell will obviously be a big part of this team..
Phil - ( New Window )
Barrett, knox and mitchell will obviously be a big part of this team..
Randle is. None of the other FA's signed are likely to be.
lol c'mon. They were 3rd at 9.2, Phoenix 9.4 and Cleveland 9.6. Factually, yes they weren't 1st or 2nd worst but you're talking about .2 points away from second worst and .4 from worst. They should be better but point differential doesn't really tell us that. The roster turnover likely does.
Going into the massive losing streak, there were 4 teams worse than them (PD) including 2 teams with more wins than them. If you don't think they lost quite a few close games for a very, very bad team, I would just assume you probably didn't watch any of the games.
Free agent stars don't want to come here, and homegrown stars don't want to stay here.
For all the hate he got around here, at least Carmelo made it absolutely clear that he wanted to come to NY and play for the Knicks. More than you can say about the rest of the league.
Intrigued by Wooten myself but he is in the boat of only being signed for summer league games. No commitment beyond that. So he is under the gun to show something.
Wilkes, Hinton and King are the signed UDFAs and Allen has another year on his two-way per link.
dailyknicks - ( New Window )
Free agent stars don't want to come here, and homegrown stars don't want to stay here.
For all the hate he got around here, at least Carmelo made it absolutely clear that he wanted to come to NY and play for the Knicks. More than you can say about the rest of the league.
kp wanting out was more about his brother..
This is a 20-25 win team
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lol c'mon. They were 3rd at 9.2, Phoenix 9.4 and Cleveland 9.6. Factually, yes they weren't 1st or 2nd worst but you're talking about .2 points away from second worst and .4 from worst. They should be better but point differential doesn't really tell us that. The roster turnover likely does.
Going into the massive losing streak, there were 4 teams worse than them (PD) including 2 teams with more wins than them. If you don't think they lost quite a few close games for a very, very bad team, I would just assume you probably didn't watch any of the games.
\
Very confused. These other bad teams don't go through similar stretches and issues? It's what makes them bad. Kevin Love missed 60 games. The Knicks were not expected to be THAT bad.
BR before the year
"Projected Record: 28-54"... they won 17 games.
You wouldn’t lose that bet, lol
But he can run the triangle offense, ll
the brother was the reason, thatbis the point take his brither out kp is still here
To not even get a starter let alone rotation player out of the 8th overall pick is a complete disaster. I really hope he turns it around, but he would have to make a historic improvement on offense to do so...
\
Very confused. These other bad teams don't go through similar stretches and issues? It's what makes them bad. Kevin Love missed 60 games. The Knicks were not expected to be THAT bad.
BR before the year
"Projected Record: 28-54"... they won 17 games.
I can't speak for that projection. I thought they were one of the worst 2 or 3 teams in the sport before the season. The Knicks just happened to lose quite a few close games for a team that was so bad. If that luck can turn around, there's no reason to think they can't be 5-10 wins better IMO. It won't mean anything at the end of the day.
Oof.
Projected record: 28-54
Last season: 29-53
New coach David Fizdale won't have the services of a still-rehabbing Kristaps Porzingis to start the season. But lots of reps for Kevin Knox and securing another lottery pick probably isn't the worst outcome for a Knicks team hoping it can lure an elite star to New York during the summer of 2019.
Maybe you were the outlier and they were supposed to be bad but not THIS bad.
1) He was taking the 158 million before last season or this summer. 0% chance he takes the QO and passes up that money. Don't care how unhappy or disgruntled he was.
2) Knicks could have received more if they weren't looking to dump Hardaway and Lee.
Oof.
Kevon Looney isn't any good and Taj Gibson's sole purpose on the Knicks is to help Mitchell Robinson become a professional in all aspects. Plus, it's 1 year.
Oof.
he has a team option, if he was taking less money he was not taking less money
Oof.
Which team is a player more likely to accept less money from - the Warriors or the Knicks?
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Twice as much per year as the Warriors just paid Kevon Looney?
Oof.
he has a team option, if he was taking less money he was not taking less money
that should say hr was not taking a team option
Once I realized the Knicks needed to give up resources to get KD (Russell is a solid asset) and that KD and Irving was a packaged deal; I was fine with the Knicks missing out.
Considering it was a sign and trade the Knicks would have needed to give up RJ or a high first-round pick possibly multiple first rounders. That would have seriously limited the team's ability to build around KD.
Oof.
It’s hard to get people to join a losing team. It’s easy to get complimentary pieces to stay at home and make the playoffs.
I’m second most excited about. Third is Portis but he’s such an awful defender that it almost counteracts anything he does positively offensively.
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Twice as much per year as the Warriors just paid Kevon Looney?
Oof.
Kevon Looney isn't any good and Taj Gibson's sole purpose on the Knicks is to help Mitchell Robinson become a professional in all aspects. Plus, it's 1 year.
I’m gonna guess you never saw Looney play
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Don't even get me started on Kyrie Irving.
Once I realized the Knicks needed to give up resources to get KD (Russell is a solid asset) and that KD and Irving was a packaged deal; I was fine with the Knicks missing out.
Considering it was a sign and trade the Knicks would have needed to give up RJ or a high first-round pick possibly multiple first rounders. That would have seriously limited the team's ability to build around KD.
knicks would not have had to give up rj, if he went to knicks probably no sign and trade
I’m second most excited about. Third is Portis but he’s such an awful defender that it almost counteracts anything he does positively offensively.
If you want to be excited about Payton, that’s fine. You do you, lol
Everyone has a choice
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Twice as much per year as the Warriors just paid Kevon Looney?
Oof.
Kevon Looney isn't any good and Taj Gibson's sole purpose on the Knicks is to help Mitchell Robinson become a professional in all aspects. Plus, it's 1 year.
Looney is a better player than Taj Gibson...
They liked Payton too. Slight overpay but again, you have to overpay guys to go to losing teams. Portis Bullock and Ellington are bench shooters. Not much more.
I’m gonna guess you never saw Looney play
Mitchell Robinson blocked more shots last year than Looney blocked in 4 years. He can't hit a three. He can't hit a free throw. He's not exactly Dennis Rodman defensively. He's not that good. He's serviceable. Would I rather pay him 5 million than pay Taj Gibson 10 million? Sure, but it's not like the Knicks are missing out on anything special.
Don't really get the Russell move for Golden State. Why not shop Iguodola and the 2 firsts they just traded for a player that fit better?
Yet we're supposed to blindly drink the kool aid.
And while I'm not writing home about these FAs, they are pros, hard-working, all but Taj are young. They have upside in spite of warts - I AM concerned about D as it's hard to build the foundation with poor defenders - yet it's value even if not long term
Perry has been here 2 yrs this month. This is how patience looks and feels, like it or not. No one is drinking cool-aid
And while I'm not writing home about these FAs, they are pros, hard-working, all but Taj are young. They have upside in spite of warts - I AM concerned about D as it's hard to build the foundation with poor defenders - yet it's value even if not long term
Perry has been here 2 yrs this month. This is how patience looks and feels, like it or not. No one is drinking cool-aid
Ellington is 32 this season. Bullock is 28 this will be his 8th season, I wouldn't call either one of them "young" implying some upside.
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Twice as much per year as the Warriors just paid Kevon Looney?
Oof.
Kevon Looney isn't any good and Taj Gibson's sole purpose on the Knicks is to help Mitchell Robinson become a professional in all aspects. Plus, it's 1 year.
Well that's true... I suppose this is may be yet another instance of the Knicks getting the last laugh at the Warriors' expense.
And while I'm not writing home about these FAs, they are pros, hard-working, all but Taj are young. They have upside in spite of warts - I AM concerned about D as it's hard to build the foundation with poor defenders - yet it's value even if not long term
Perry has been here 2 yrs this month. This is how patience looks and feels, like it or not. No one is drinking cool-aid
Wouldn't exactly describe the guys they signed as hard working competitors winning types- especially on D. Portis and Randle didn't try on defense last year- and that was in a contract year.
Perry's been here 2 years and the only truly impressive move he's made is the Robinson draft pick. How patient do we have to be?
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Theres a min cap, there's a ton of cap space, and next year, and the year after, NYK has ALL OF IT available
And while I'm not writing home about these FAs, they are pros, hard-working, all but Taj are young. They have upside in spite of warts - I AM concerned about D as it's hard to build the foundation with poor defenders - yet it's value even if not long term
Perry has been here 2 yrs this month. This is how patience looks and feels, like it or not. No one is drinking cool-aid
Ellington is 32 this season. Bullock is 28 this will be his 8th season, I wouldn't call either one of them "young" implying some upside.
Fair enough, I didn't realize they were older. But Randle, Portis, Payton are. Not to mention Ellington & Bullock are shooters...something we need anyway, so it's still value
And regardless, those are 1 yr contracts. Not saying they should burn money, but that's not whats happening. 2nd and 3rd tier FAs weren't coming here anyway. This is what was available (tho agreed, I'd like more info on the 'pick for cap' options but we don't have the details to judge)
Don't really get the Russell move for Golden State. Why not shop Iguodola and the 2 firsts they just traded for a player that fit better?
Yeah, it's pretty remarkable how much that Nets team has transformed in a few years. Who was on that team in 2015? Anyone good at all?
I'm also pretty skeptical about the Russell move working out for the Warriors, but at least they were able to leverage the departure of Durant to acquire a valuable asset. I won't surprised if Russell is traded this season, unless Klay won't be returning near the deadline (certainly possible).
I know, not exciting. But if you've been a NYK fan for a few decades, it actually is (or at least a SHOT at something different)
Clueless? Multiple NBA execs (who presumably know more than us the fans) questioned why the Knicks weren't using cap space to land picks like other teams did. It's okay to question the Knicks moves without being "against" a rebuild. 99% of this site has been arguing for a rebuild for years, the people wanting to "win now" are the minority.
I know, not exciting. But if you've been a NYK fan for a few decades, it actually is (or at least a SHOT at something different)
Sorry but I have higher hopes than our GM "not doing anything dumb". I'd like to see some smart moves and good young players brought in. He hasn't done that yet and 2 years is plenty of time to do that. Don't forget the Knicks had to give up a 2nd round pick to hire Scott Perry...
Look what Sean Marks accomplished in 3 years. I'm sorry but I am not impressed with anything him or Mills have done.
Steve Popper
@StevePopper
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1h
Kris Wilkes is sick so not on the Knicks summer league roster. The undrafted rookie is still expected to sign a two-way with the team.
Clueless.
Mike Vorkunov
@MikeVorkunov
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21h
Multiple league executives questioned why the Knicks were not willing to use their cap space to take on bad contracts in an attempt to add future assets.
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How long did you expect a 'patient, build thru draft' to take? That's silly. And my point, we can't just make A+ moves all day every day. And what's more, NYK DIDNT do anything stupid
I know, not exciting. But if you've been a NYK fan for a few decades, it actually is (or at least a SHOT at something different)
Sorry but I have higher hopes than our GM "not doing anything dumb". I'd like to see some smart moves and good young players brought in. He hasn't done that yet and 2 years is plenty of time to do that. Don't forget the Knicks had to give up a 2nd round pick to hire Scott Perry...
Look what Sean Marks accomplished in 3 years. I'm sorry but I am not impressed with anything him or Mills have done.
I knoe you hate everything knicks right now, but you see no good players on this team?
i get you hste everythkng snd that is fine, i get it, but i dont see hoe you see no good nba players on this roster
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How long did you expect a 'patient, build thru draft' to take? That's silly. And my point, we can't just make A+ moves all day every day. And what's more, NYK DIDNT do anything stupid
I know, not exciting. But if you've been a NYK fan for a few decades, it actually is (or at least a SHOT at something different)
Sorry but I have higher hopes than our GM "not doing anything dumb". I'd like to see some smart moves and good young players brought in. He hasn't done that yet and 2 years is plenty of time to do that. Don't forget the Knicks had to give up a 2nd round pick to hire Scott Perry...
Look what Sean Marks accomplished in 3 years. I'm sorry but I am not impressed with anything him or Mills have done.
Wait, so now you're saying you can't wait 2 years because someone else did it in 3?
What was BKs record LAST yr? 28-54. Even on your ridiculous time frame, you're jumping the gun. Flipping a franchise from perennial loser to even 1 winning record takes longer save randomness & luck, that's obvious
And that's ignoring cherry picking the team that JUST happened to land the premier FA (as if ANY other team can compare or plan accordingly...as we just saw)
he seems to value flexibility contract wise rather than jusy acquirkng players with picks...
He is not willing to take a guaranteed 2 year contract for 1 first...
the one thing i will say he did a good job of basically controlling the entire roster and every contract
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In comment 14489607 ChaChing said:
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How long did you expect a 'patient, build thru draft' to take? That's silly. And my point, we can't just make A+ moves all day every day. And what's more, NYK DIDNT do anything stupid
I know, not exciting. But if you've been a NYK fan for a few decades, it actually is (or at least a SHOT at something different)
Sorry but I have higher hopes than our GM "not doing anything dumb". I'd like to see some smart moves and good young players brought in. He hasn't done that yet and 2 years is plenty of time to do that. Don't forget the Knicks had to give up a 2nd round pick to hire Scott Perry...
Look what Sean Marks accomplished in 3 years. I'm sorry but I am not impressed with anything him or Mills have done.
Wait, so now you're saying you can't wait 2 years because someone else did it in 3?
What was BKs record LAST yr? 28-54. Even on your ridiculous time frame, you're jumping the gun. Flipping a franchise from perennial loser to even 1 winning record takes longer save randomness & luck, that's obvious
And that's ignoring cherry picking the team that JUST happened to land the premier FA (as if ANY other team can compare or plan accordingly...as we just saw)
Perry's first offseason with the team the Knicks didn't have cap space. They did however draft Robinson in the 2nd round and sign Trier as an UDFA. Are those not impressive young players?
Also, are we just going to forget the offer sheets Marks signed Porter, Crabbe and Tyler Johnson to? They lucked out that those were all matched and Marks has done an excellent job but nobody's perfect.
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He's competent, but he certainly hasn't come across as a great chess player.
he seems to value flexibility contract wise rather than jusy acquirkng players with picks...
He is not willing to take a guaranteed 2 year contract for 1 first...
the one thing i will say he did a good job of basically controlling the entire roster and every contract
Igoudala and Harkless both have one year remaining on their contracts.
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He's competent, but he certainly hasn't come across as a great chess player.
he seems to value flexibility contract wise rather than jusy acquirkng players with picks...
He is not willing to take a guaranteed 2 year contract for 1 first...
the one thing i will say he did a good job of basically controlling the entire roster and every contract
Maybe I'm giving them too much credit but I wonder if passing up on those deals was a calculated gamble for the Knicks, knowing that they essentially have ~$50M worth of expiring contracts for the next two years. With much of the league having cap space this year, I wouldn't be surprised if next year with more teams capped out if they can get more than they would this time around by trading some of those guys.
2. the D. I've said it's tough to build the mindset if no one has it to start
3. Did they really try for 1st tier FAs? KD was out when he got hurt, and 'aggressively pursue Kawhi' either was fluff or failed behind-the-scenes
Knicks are FAAAR from perfect here. But acting like everything done was shit, or bitching about the cost is silly. The $ actually makes them tradeable assets because save a drastic fall off, as players they all have some value. And expecting a huge jump over 1 offseason is nuts (save big FA news which we've seen you can't really plan for or rely on)
But how exactly are Mills/ Perry doing in "the right way"? And what moves have they made the last 2 years that give you any confidence they can build a winner? I'm all for being patient, I just haven't seen anything to have any faith in them. Perry is a first time GM and Mills is... Mills to put it kindly.I personally think this free agency was awful but we'll have to agree to disagree on that.
Outside of the Robinson pick, he's shown zero ability to build a winner. I hope I'm wrong I just don't see it. And no I'm not cheering for them for not making any bad or dumb moves....
On the opposite side of the ledger... DSJ, Randle, Portis, Payton, Knox, Trier, Barrett all figure to play major minutes and either are proven to be poor defenders or haven't proven otherwise.
Yes, 10000x I wish there was D. Not excusing this, just have to wait and see. That doesn't make every contract bad, overpaid, a poor decision. This isn't even optimism, just objectivity (or an attempt at it!)
Barrett has that mentality on the court always it seems. Randle is another guy who seems to just play angry. If Fizdale can light a fire under the rest of the guys it could be fun to watch.
But how exactly are Mills/ Perry doing in "the right way"? And what moves have they made the last 2 years that give you any confidence they can build a winner? I'm all for being patient, I just haven't seen anything to have any faith in them. Perry is a first time GM and Mills is... Mills to put it kindly.I personally think this free agency was awful but we'll have to agree to disagree on that.
Outside of the Robinson pick, he's shown zero ability to build a winner. I hope I'm wrong I just don't see it. And no I'm not cheering for them for not making any bad or dumb moves....
Kept picks, not splurged on 2nd tier FAs after missing on the main targets, completely cleared cap space, now for each yr for 2 years. When's the last time NYK did that for any offseason? That's the meat and potatoes, even if there were other / better moves too
And I don't completely disagree with you. Perry's history is imperfect. And if it's too soon to say he's bad, well it's too soon to say good
FA sucked, but to put that on Perry is rough. Aside from the fact most decisions are made among players, he's always said we're keeping flexible for FAs and build organically. Exactly what their actions show (also rare for NYK). We can debate the specific players, but once you sift out tiers 1-3 or 4, what's left? And of those, who wants NYK? Who takes a 1 yr deal? Cost actually makes sense from that view
I'm far more concerned few players have improved under Fiz. Not much change in D or effort over the season. And 2 young guys lost confidence. But it's only been 1 yr, even if IMO he better show progress this go around...
Also, if I'm not wrong, the Knicks could still take on bad contracts for picks if the right opportunity comes along can't they? Sure they can't absorb a contract now, but they can still trade some of these 1 and 1's for a longer contract. I was under the impression that most salary dumps happen this way anyway: one team trades a longer contract for some expirings.
Just my view on why I think some people are being a bit too critical. I still feel like some people treat sports as if it were math. Sports won't output the same results every time. There isn't a clear cut way to do things. Sometimes a team can do everything seemingly "right" and get poor results while others, like the Lakers, can seemingly do everything "wrong" and just happen across wins, or at least a team that looks like it will win on paper.
Not making known dumb decisions, in my mind, is the only way to position a team to hopefully get lucky sometime in the future. It just hasn't happened yet with this Knicks team because until about two years ago they have been making known dumb decisions. To me, 2 years in sports terms is basically nothing.
I'm not asking him to build a contender overnight. But its now been 2 years and I've yet to see him making any moves that the best GMs routinely pull off.
That's the ridiculousness of fans criticizing non-moves. You literally have little idea of what moves have been discussed, let alone the details behind the moves.
I'm not asking him to build a contender overnight. But its now been 2 years and I've yet to see him making any moves that the best GMs routinely pull off.
After all thats transpired over the years, I don't find it hard to believe, nor unreasonable that the Knicks targeted guys that they specifically knew would offer a strong locker room presence and who were more than happy to be in NY for the Knicks. They need to change the perception desperately.
Also, this was discussed yesterday but Kendrick Perkins all but confirmed that the Knicks weren't willing to offer Durant the full max. He said on ESPN that KD was offended by it and it turned him off to them.
There's actually theory among some Warriors fans that Durant actually was strongly considering going to the Knicks... until they traded Porzingis. Though this seems to be based on nothing more than the fact that it was Durant who coined KP's "Unicorn" nickname, so as always, it's just sports fan detective work and we should all feel lucky they're not solving actual crimes.
That's the ridiculousness of fans criticizing non-moves. You literally have little idea of what moves have been discussed, let alone the details behind the moves.
It's not just fans. Media people (some, not all) have joined in the "trade for bad contracts and picks" brigade. Until the Knicks possess every pick of the 2023 draft, these people are going to complain.
You can't hide forever
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you have no clue what opportunities have been looked at.
That's the ridiculousness of fans criticizing non-moves. You literally have little idea of what moves have been discussed, let alone the details behind the moves.
It's not just fans. Media people (some, not all) have joined in the "trade for bad contracts and picks" brigade. Until the Knicks possess every pick of the 2023 draft, these people are going to complain.
This is what happens. It wasn't long ago that the prevailing belief was that teams had to tank in order to rebuild after seeing what it brought for the Sixers. Now it's that teams must take on bad contracts for future draft capital. Bottom line though is that there is more than one way to rebuild...
i dont like simmons but its actually quite comical.
UCLA you mean. He's apparently "under the weather" according to Berman so he won't play but it's not a serious illness. It's a bit disappointing since he needs the reps but he'll get his time in the gleague.
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Turn the question around. He hasn’t made any bad moves unless you consider the Porzingis trade a bad move which I don’t.
There's actually theory among some Warriors fans that Durant actually was strongly considering going to the Knicks... until they traded Porzingis. Though this seems to be based on nothing more than the fact that it was Durant who coined KP's "Unicorn" nickname, so as always, it's just sports fan detective work and we should all feel lucky they're not solving actual crimes.
it's not some "fan theory", lol. It came from Jay Williams and was all over twitter.
He's sick so he's not on the roster. Kind of weird he'd miss that much time being "sick" but okay.
That's the ridiculousness of fans criticizing non-moves. You literally have little idea of what moves have been discussed, let alone the details behind the moves.
huh? Their strategy was obvious. They blew through millions in cap space in a matter of hours. Multiple people who cover the league have questioned it.
DSJ
Trier
Frank
Mitch
KK
Ignas B
Bullock
Barrett
Ellington
Dotson
Randle
Gibson
Portis
Payton
Fitz loves Allen and the Knicks are still talking to other PG's so seems like it's a major long shot for a guy like Wilkes.
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you have no clue what opportunities have been looked at.
That's the ridiculousness of fans criticizing non-moves. You literally have little idea of what moves have been discussed, let alone the details behind the moves.
It's not just fans. Media people (some, not all) have joined in the "trade for bad contracts and picks" brigade. Until the Knicks possess every pick of the 2023 draft, these people are going to complain.
it's a sound team building strategy that many teams have employed. Mills/Perry seemingly did not consider it. In fact, it was reported prior to free agency that they would not consider it.
Funny how several of the same people doing cartwheels over the future picks coming from Dallas that requiring sacrificing KP are indifferent when it comes to getting picks that require simply taking another teams unwanted player for a year. I guess some folks just need to tell themselves everything is fine. We saw it here for years with the Jerry Reese defenders.
I do consider stretching Noah over 4 years to gain cap space one year earlier only to spend it on a bunch of middling free agents a bad move. Whether the intentions when clearing the space were different at the time its up to him to execute the plan. I've been a long proponent of don't make cap moves until they are absolutely necessary because god knows crazy things (blown out achillies with 2 games left in the season) happen that you could never account for. You could say keeping him around the team for the whole season could have been a distraction, but they were a 17 win team with no distractions; what difference would it make?
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In comment 14489722 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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you have no clue what opportunities have been looked at.
That's the ridiculousness of fans criticizing non-moves. You literally have little idea of what moves have been discussed, let alone the details behind the moves.
It's not just fans. Media people (some, not all) have joined in the "trade for bad contracts and picks" brigade. Until the Knicks possess every pick of the 2023 draft, these people are going to complain.
it's a sound team building strategy that many teams have employed. Mills/Perry seemingly did not consider it. In fact, it was reported prior to free agency that they would not consider it.
Funny how several of the same people doing cartwheels over the future picks coming from Dallas that requiring sacrificing KP are indifferent when it comes to getting picks that require simply taking another teams unwanted player for a year. I guess some folks just need to tell themselves everything is fine. We saw it here for years with the Jerry Reese defenders.
Did they really say they would not consider it?
If so, pure incompetence
That isn't even a strategy. It is an action (tactic).
That's probably part of the reason so many morons jump on the latest narrative.
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huh? Their strategy was obvious. They blew through millions in cap space in a matter of hours. Multiple people who cover the league have questioned it.
That isn't even a strategy. It is an action (tactic).
That's probably part of the reason so many morons jump on the latest narrative.
the length and structure of the contracts is 100% indicative of a strategy. You're just calling it "narrative" because you're either simply unaware of what they did or too dumb to follow it.
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In comment 14489722 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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you have no clue what opportunities have been looked at.
That's the ridiculousness of fans criticizing non-moves. You literally have little idea of what moves have been discussed, let alone the details behind the moves.
It's not just fans. Media people (some, not all) have joined in the "trade for bad contracts and picks" brigade. Until the Knicks possess every pick of the 2023 draft, these people are going to complain.
it's a sound team building strategy that many teams have employed. Mills/Perry seemingly did not consider it. In fact, it was reported prior to free agency that they would not consider it.
Funny how several of the same people doing cartwheels over the future picks coming from Dallas that requiring sacrificing KP are indifferent when it comes to getting picks that require simply taking another teams unwanted player for a year. I guess some folks just need to tell themselves everything is fine. We saw it here for years with the Jerry Reese defenders.
I'll say this until I'm blue in the face. It's entirely possible (maybe even likely) that come draft time next year there are teams who need to clear salary for one reason or another who will happily give us their first round pick in next year's draft with a player who has a year left in exchange for one of those guys whose options they can just decline. That has more value than a lottery protected 2023 pick.
I don't want to continue to rehash the KP trade but they got a 2021 *unprotected* first (notice none of these picks are unprotected) AND they didn't sacrifice KP, they sacrificed having the pay KP 5/$158M coming off of a torn ACL.
And claiming they blew millions in cap is disingenuous. They blew cap only if there was someone better to be had. There isn't when you're a bad team looking for 1-yr contracts and no tier 1-3 players. They get 1 yr, option if they flourish, gone if not. And why only Randle got more than 1 yr as the best of the bunch w/ upside but not an unfair cap hold nor for long
Without KD, that's what this year was always going to be
And the contracts just exchanged aren't even bad contracts- they are expirings. I'm sorry but Igoudola/ Harkless/ 2 future 1sts is better than Wayne Ellington/ Reggie Bullock and Taj Gibson.
This isn't some radical idea. Its been used by smart teams routinely. And yes I have no idea the conversations they had or if they were involved. But it was reported by Begley they had zero interest in doing this strategy. And Perry failed to do this in Sac as well.
Just look what the Hawks did this past draft to jump up to 4. These small moves all add up and the Knicks continually ignore them.
true. However we now have FIVE over those contracts to trade. We could have still done 2-3 of them - while still doing a deal like the Harkless trade.
the GS pick Memphis got is top 4 protected. Come on...
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I'll say this until I'm blue in the face. It's entirely possible (maybe even likely) that come draft time next year there are teams who need to clear salary for one reason or another who will happily give us their first round pick in next year's draft with a player who has a year left in exchange for one of those guys whose options they can just decline. That has more value than a lottery protected 2023 pick.
true. However we now have FIVE over those contracts to trade. We could have still done 2-3 of them - while still doing a deal like the Harkless trade.
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I don't want to continue to rehash the KP trade but they got a 2021 *unprotected* first (notice none of these picks are unprotected) AND they didn't sacrifice KP, they sacrificed having the pay KP 5/$158M coming off of a torn ACL.
the GS pick Memphis got is top 4 protected. Come on...
They legitimately wanted those players. Not all of them will be traded but they need to figure out who they'll want to keep going into 2021 FA as part of the foundation and pitch to FA's. Something they didn't have this year.
It's a 2024 pick. It's hard to be upset as a fan that my team missed out on a pick 5 years down the line...
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I'll say this until I'm blue in the face. It's entirely possible (maybe even likely) that come draft time next year there are teams who need to clear salary for one reason or another who will happily give us their first round pick in next year's draft with a player who has a year left in exchange for one of those guys whose options they can just decline. That has more value than a lottery protected 2023 pick.
true. However we now have FIVE over those contracts to trade. We could have still done 2-3 of them - while still doing a deal like the Harkless trade.
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I don't want to continue to rehash the KP trade but they got a 2021 *unprotected* first (notice none of these picks are unprotected) AND they didn't sacrifice KP, they sacrificed having the pay KP 5/$158M coming off of a torn ACL.
the GS pick Memphis got is top 4 protected. Come on...
I would have done the Payton, Portis, Bullock and Randle deals and passed on Ellington and Taj. Paying taj 10 mil to mentor is excessive and Ellington is a worse Bullock. They would have hit the cap floor and had some flexibility. They clearly valued the depth though so here we are.
Either way then getting absolutely killed for not taking on guys for late firsts doesn’t really resonate with me. They’ll win more games (by default) and ideally start building a real team while having flexibility.
Link - ( New Window )
And the contracts just exchanged aren't even bad contracts- they are expirings. I'm sorry but Igoudola/ Harkless/ 2 future 1sts is better than Wayne Ellington/ Reggie Bullock and Taj Gibson.
This isn't some radical idea. Its been used by smart teams routinely. And yes I have no idea the conversations they had or if they were involved. But it was reported by Begley they had zero interest in doing this strategy. And Perry failed to do this in Sac as well.
Just look what the Hawks did this past draft to jump up to 4. These small moves all add up and the Knicks continually ignore them.
That's just not true. Begley said they wouldn't have interest unless the contract they took back was a player that they thought could help them.
Your Hawks examples actually supports my point. With the Nets eyeing a big FA splash just before the draft they were willing to give up the 17th pick in the draft that was a couple of weeks away to shed salary and a 2020 pick. That's a much better haul than a 1 that's years down the line. Now, who will teams call trying to do that next year? Probably the Knicks.
Priority #1 for the team should be to develop RJ Barrett. Barrett is going to need floor spacing to develop properly or he's going to look like he did at Duke with little growth. Can Iguodala or Harkless shoot? Can Ellington and Bullock? It's pretty simple why they made the choice that they did.
who out of these guys do you realistically see as part of anyone's foundation? And even if say Portis or Payton turns into something, you don't have full bird rights on them. You're just as likely to lose them as you are to keep them.
That's because you lack perspective. Every asset counts when building a roster - whether you use the pick yourself or use it as part of a trade at some point.
Mitch is a beast! The guy is definitely physically imposing. Here's to continued growth.
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They legitimately wanted those players. Not all of them will be traded but they need to figure out who they'll want to keep going into 2021 FA as part of the foundation and pitch to FA's. Something they didn't have this year.
who out of these guys do you realistically see as part of anyone's foundation? And even if say Portis or Payton turns into something, you don't have full bird rights on them. You're just as likely to lose them as you are to keep them.
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It's a 2024 pick. It's hard to be upset as a fan that my team missed out on a pick 5 years down the line...
That's because you lack perspective. Every asset counts when building a roster - whether you use the pick yourself or use it as part of a trade at some point.
with portis and payton their contracts are high so their early bird rights would probably be enough to resign them
I just don't see the need to be completely capped out with this team and these players 2 days into free agency. I'd rather have gotten the picks, maintained the open space for trades in season and still have the option at the end of the next season.
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They legitimately wanted those players. Not all of them will be traded but they need to figure out who they'll want to keep going into 2021 FA as part of the foundation and pitch to FA's. Something they didn't have this year.
who out of these guys do you realistically see as part of anyone's foundation? And even if say Portis or Payton turns into something, you don't have full bird rights on them. You're just as likely to lose them as you are to keep them.
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It's a 2024 pick. It's hard to be upset as a fan that my team missed out on a pick 5 years down the line...
That's because you lack perspective. Every asset counts when building a roster - whether you use the pick yourself or use it as part of a trade at some point.
Bullock is 28, there's definitely a world in which he's someone you want to keep moving forward with your young core and a max FA or two.
They don't have full bird rights but they do have early bird rights so you can pay them 175% more than their salary. Unless those guys become superstars, that's going to be plenty.
I lack perspective? The Knicks have $50M worth of expiring contracts essentially for the next two seasons (if they choose) and a few fans are upset that they didn't get a 2024 pick 5 years prior. Why don't we wait and see how this works out first...A late first round pick years down the line isn't as valuable as an expiring contract in a trade.
I just don't see the need to be completely capped out with this team and these players 2 days into free agency. I'd rather have gotten the picks, maintained the open space for trades in season and still have the option at the end of the next season.
They don't have the team option though so to deal them again you'd have to do it at the deadline. Less likely you'll get that kind of value then.
I'm not even sure he has to be more than slightly below average. If Mitch blossoms into what we believe that he can, he's going to be able to cover up a lot of defensive mistakes committed by other players.
The Knicks have pieces that can become all-stars if they develop
Randle
Barrett
Robinson
Knox
DSJ
Frank
Meanwhile they are surrounded by solid support pieces that can help win games.
Problem is everyone expected top FA and that might have been unrealistic.
Grab a couple more top 15 picks and hopefully in 2 or 3 years we won't have to Rely on big name free agents
"I think it's a team, we've got a squad," he said after his first Summer League practice. "I'm just a rookie coming in. I'm just trying to learn and do as much as I can to help the team."
With Kevin Durant in Brooklyn, the Knicks will continue to build their young core of Barrett, Kevin Knox, Allonzo Trier and Mitchell Robinson. They've added Julius Randle, Reggie Bullock, Wayne Ellington, Bobby Portis and Taj Gibson thus far in free agency.
As we learned over the last 72 hours, the best way for the Knicks to push forward is to build their young core into something formidable. So the development of Barrett, Knox and the other young players will be pivotal.
The group will play its first summer league game on Friday against Pelicans rookie and No. 1 overall pick Zion Williamson. Barrett said he laughed when he found out his first game would be against his former Duke teammate.
"It's funny that my first game ever in a uniform is against my guy so, just really excited to play," he said.
Barrett said his first Summer League practice was "high intensity" and "a lot of fun."
"I was just really trying to learn. That's really what I came in for," he said.
Barrett also recently appeared at the NBA's Awards show in Los Angeles and presented the Rookie of the Year award to Luka Doncic.
"The NBA awards was great. Hopefully, that's me getting the award next year. So it was great to experience that," he said.
But lets agree they missed on 1. This pick is later and way down the line. They already have several, so it's value is mostly as a small trade asset. But like the Atl move, these are FAR from available because you have assets, and every year it's different based on team situations & draft class among many factors. Much less does the move hinge on 1 late pick...
And without that move, we're concerned about missing on the potential of a late pick in 2-4 yrs? While lamenting 3-4 young players on reasonable contracts ($ has trade value & 1 yr team option are huge), with upside who are at least proven NBA pros? Even 1st round picks have trouble (see Frank, Knox), much less our missing late pick
Sure I'd love Iggy or Hark if only for D as 1 yr contracts over all but Randle. But compare Portis & Hark, we got youth & upside over some D & a 2nd round pick? We're overreacting - even if they refused a trade sitting on the table netting them a late pick, it's not some egregious mistake. Also who would be a viable trade option from NYK?
Any chance these expiring deals would have slowed the development of the younger players by taking minutes or complaining if they didn't get minutes?
Strongly disagree with this one. Read any extended interviews with Iggy. The guy gets "it" and would/has been an amazing mentor.
"hat are the biggest changes in the N.B.A. since you entered the league?
We players hold ourselves at a different level now than we did before. Before, it wasn’t as much about how active we were, whether it be socially or from a business perspective, a mental space, all those things. We would like each generation to be able to learn from the previous. . . . I think we’re all trying to be in a better space. And you see that physically, with the way we’re training, with the technology we’re using on and off the court, whether it be with sleep or with yoga or changing our diets. And then you see that with our business, and the way we’ve disrupted the old model of endorsements, and how we’re taking equity in companies, and how we’re running our businesses and how we’re running our brands, and how we’re taking more ownership of our brands. All those things have really changed throughout the last decade.
Was there some aspect of tutelage or mentorship that you didn’t get that is different now than when you entered the league?
I don’t know if there was anything that was missing, but I think we’re just getting access to more, especially with technology, and everything is in front of you. And teams or organizations are using analytics to decide which players will fit better with a team and what players they can get for cheaper and still be as effective. We were able to do the same thing: take those analytics and see the impact that we have on a game and the impact that we have on businesses. So we’ve just smartened up.
How have conversations among players changed? Are plane rides different?
The plane is a sacred place for players to be able to relax and get away from the noise. You are seeing more conversation on the plane rides. You’re seeing a lot of books on plane rides. You’re seeing guys read newspapers. Klay Thompson’s an endorser of the local newspaper and it’s a thing for him to have the newspaper, in physical form, in his locker every game or in his locker every shootaround. It’s not just on basketball or locker-room chatter.
How much disagreement is there during political conversations?
Well, it’s kind of that fine line between what’s sacred and what you can share. But we’re just having a candid conversation, whereas in the past we weren’t as aware of what’s going on, or we just didn’t care. But we’re seeing the effect it has on our people and the people that we resonate with through the majority of our lives. Our upbringing is definitely—we were right in the middle of that. But we’re having those conversations and we’re talking about ramifications of decisions that are made by others and how that’s going to affect us and affect others. So that’s what I’m most proud of—that we’re having them."
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Even if he was just kidding around, he embarrassed them publicly just weeks before FA and basically laughed at them. The Knicks desperately need to change the perception surrounding the team and organization (which is why I'm sure they went out of their way for guys like Gibson and Ellington). It also wouldn't be good to bring that into a locker room with young, impressionable kids.
Any chance these expiring deals would have slowed the development of the younger players by taking minutes or complaining if they didn't get minutes?
I think they would've waived Iguodala. Who knows re: Harkless but at least the guys they signed they know want to be here. I think what is more likely to slow development is a lack of floor spacing, poor point guard play, and not having a culture around defense. It's clear to me this is what they set out to mitigate with their money.
I don't think that would factor for the names we've heard, if only because for 1 yr you'd have to be a real shithead to be that big a red flag you'd think
Two offseasons ago you mean, I think? He was rumored in Melo talks (pre-Perry) but iirc that was just preferable to taking on Ryan Anderson. Not that it matters but Harkless was 24 then and seemed to be on the upswing. He's had trouble staying healthy since and he hasn't improved at all. Maybe they were interested in him last year too but i don't recall seeing that.
Meh,
I think outside of a very, very small segment of Knicks fans.. I don't think most even heard his quote and he was really just talking about GS's players sticking with GS. Absolute worst case he would have explained that and it would have been the end of it. I mean Dinwiddie has made a second career of clowning the Knicks on twitter but I'm sure they would add him given the chance.
Everything I've seen and read is that Iggy is a good dude and well respected. People on BBI are pretty die hard, would you really fault any player in making a casual joke at the Knicks expense if their reputation were generally positive? I know I wouldn't.
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it was strongly rumored they were interested in Harkless last off-season. Who knows if it were true but that was the rumor.
Two offseasons ago you mean, I think? He was rumored in Melo talks (pre-Perry) but iirc that was just preferable to taking on Ryan Anderson. Not that it matters but Harkless was 24 then and seemed to be on the upswing. He's had trouble staying healthy since and he hasn't improved at all. Maybe they were interested in him last year too but i don't recall seeing that.
You're right. 2017, but he also has Perry ties and that hasn't changed
“(Scott Perry and I) had a really good relationship. We still have a good relationship. We actually spoke not too long ago. We talk all the time,” Harkless said. “He’s a real down-to-Earth guy, a real dude. He doesn’t really sugar coat stuff. So I think that’s why players take a liking to him.”
I don't think that would factor for the names we've heard, if only because for 1 yr you'd have to be a real shithead to be that big a red flag you'd think
More than locker room issues would they steal minutes from the kids you are trying to develop?
And the contracts just exchanged aren't even bad contracts- they are expirings. I'm sorry but Igoudola/ Harkless/ 2 future 1sts is better than Wayne Ellington/ Reggie Bullock and Taj Gibson.
This isn't some radical idea. Its been used by smart teams routinely. And yes I have no idea the conversations they had or if they were involved. But it was reported by Begley they had zero interest in doing this strategy. And Perry failed to do this in Sac as well.
Just look what the Hawks did this past draft to jump up to 4. These small moves all add up and the Knicks continually ignore them.
Well at least someone isn't drinking the kool-aid. Don't understand why so many are putting their faith in the FO, sure Perry is new, but he hasn't done anything big or bad yet, but Millis has been part of the dumpster fire. Aside from Randle and Gibson's locker room presence, the rest of the guys don't move the needle at all, just jags. All the eggs are in their young core, while Barrett and Mitch are talented, nobody knows how they're gonna turn out. The Knicks will be a bottom dweller for the next few years and maybe longer.
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same w/ Hark, tho I'm not as sure
I don't think that would factor for the names we've heard, if only because for 1 yr you'd have to be a real shithead to be that big a red flag you'd think
More than locker room issues would they steal minutes from the kids you are trying to develop?
?
They just signed
Gibson (34)
Bullock (28)
Ellington (32)
How would these 2 differ?
I'd also put that more on the coach as it's on him to allocate minutes appropriately, which of course can be an issue, but in this situation I don't think it'd factor. Esp for Iggy, a champion, hard worker, do what's asked, team type...I don't think he'd make a peep. He'd be a fantastic mentor
Well at least someone isn't drinking the kool-aid. Don't understand why so many are putting their faith in the FO, sure Perry is new, but he hasn't done anything big or bad yet, but Millis has been part of the dumpster fire. Aside from Randle and Gibson's locker room presence, the rest of the guys don't move the needle at all, just jags. All the eggs are in their young core, while Barrett and Mitch are talented, nobody knows how they're gonna turn out. The Knicks will be a bottom dweller for the next few years and maybe longer.
The key to any successful rebuild is player development. Without that, there's no rebuilding path short of winning the lottery with a surefire superstar waiting for you that will work. Even then, it may not work (see New Orleans with AD). You could get lucky with a marquee free agent or two but no way in hell am I going down that path again and I'm sure you all agree.
I'd also put that more on the coach as it's on him to allocate minutes appropriately, which of course can be an issue, but in this situation I don't think it'd factor. Esp for Iggy, a champion, hard worker, do what's asked, team type...I don't think he'd make a peep. He'd be a fantastic mentor
Some are just trying to justify the FO's actions, idk why though. Having cap space is an asset, and they blew it in a matter of hours.
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Well at least someone isn't drinking the kool-aid. Don't understand why so many are putting their faith in the FO, sure Perry is new, but he hasn't done anything big or bad yet, but Millis has been part of the dumpster fire. Aside from Randle and Gibson's locker room presence, the rest of the guys don't move the needle at all, just jags. All the eggs are in their young core, while Barrett and Mitch are talented, nobody knows how they're gonna turn out. The Knicks will be a bottom dweller for the next few years and maybe longer.
The key to any successful rebuild is player development. Without that, there's no rebuilding path short of winning the lottery with a surefire superstar waiting for you that will work. Even then, it may not work (see New Orleans with AD). You could get lucky with a marquee free agent or two but no way in hell am I going down that path again and I'm sure you all agree.
I really wish the Knicks won the lottery. I feel like it was fixed against them, small markets like the Pelicans and Cavaliers have won the lottery multiple times with worse odds. And the Lakers got 4 top 5 picks against the odds in the past five years. Somethings up
Yeah, an extra draft pick would've been nice, but it's not a huge deal - critics are just piling on as much as possible at this point. Fuck them. The Knicks have their first rounders, a couple of future firsts from Dallas, and the next two second rounders from Charlotte, which should be in the 31-35 range. We've already had three top 10 picks in a row and found Mitch, Trier and Dotson after the first round - we have more than enough draft capital to build a good young nucleus.
I really wish the Knicks won the lottery. I feel like it was fixed against them, small markets like the Pelicans and Cavaliers have won the lottery multiple times with worse odds. And the Lakers got 4 top 5 picks against the odds in the past five years. Somethings up
David Griffin was won it 3 times!!! It's unbelievable. He's lauded for the work he's done but he came to a team with Anthony Davis and won the Zion lottery. Such garbage.
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I really wish the Knicks won the lottery. I feel like it was fixed against them, small markets like the Pelicans and Cavaliers have won the lottery multiple times with worse odds. And the Lakers got 4 top 5 picks against the odds in the past five years. Somethings up
David Griffin was won it 3 times!!! It's unbelievable. He's lauded for the work he's done but he came to a team with Anthony Davis and won the Zion lottery. Such garbage.
It feels like the NBA rewards small market teams.fir losing their stars, Lebron leaves, Cleveland wins 3 times, AD leaves boom. No, those organizations have shown they cant build around stars and they leave
2) Mitchell giving Barrett a really, really hard time and enjoying the heck out of it.
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I don’t mind the front court signings, because we have no bodies, but the three guards make no sense. DSJ, Dotson, Trier, Frank, Barrett, Payton, Bollucks, Ellington....you have 8 players for 2-3 spots. Who do you think Fizdale are going to play when he’s on the hot seat?
No free agents are coming here for 30-win, Payton/Randle-led team. Still have to build through the draft and young players.
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in lieu of one of the 5 signings, I'm not sure it's a big problem. Not like we'd be hanging 3-4-5 guys with big egos expecting 30+ minutes
I'd also put that more on the coach as it's on him to allocate minutes appropriately, which of course can be an issue, but in this situation I don't think it'd factor. Esp for Iggy, a champion, hard worker, do what's asked, team type...I don't think he'd make a peep. He'd be a fantastic mentor
Some are just trying to justify the FO's actions, idk why though. Having cap space is an asset, and they blew it in a matter of hours.
'Blew' is totally disingenuous. They had to sign a full roster and given all but one is a 1 yr deal the individual $ is almost irrelevant
Cap is an asset but mainly early off-season. This FO has set up so NYK for max cap 3 yrs in a row. As an asset that's far from nothing. And it's blown only if there were better players available. Were there, for a bad team looking for 1 yr contracts, cutting out any multi-year tier 1-3 options?
I don't see this kool-aid and justification. Just a few disagreeing with the 'FO has done nothing' idea, based mostly on one missed future pick while ignoring 3 yrs of max cap (even if it's only step 1 or 2). I'm also not sure who the viable NYK trade asset is for that move
I don’t mind the front court signings, because we have no bodies, but the three guards make no sense. DSJ, Dotson, Trier, Frank, Barrett, Payton, Bollucks, Ellington....you have 8 players for 2-3 spots. Who do you think Fizdale are going to play when he’s on the hot seat?
No free agents are coming here for 30-win, Payton/Randle-led team. Still have to build through the draft and young players.
last year just proved ping pong balls do not matter..
also randle is 23 he is part of the futuee
But save major injury or dramatic fall off, that contract will be movable in a year just the same
And if he doesn't play well, 2 years is far from some big problem nor is he an unreasonable cap hold at last years production fwiw (even if a bit higher)
Actually, Payton makes sense. We were short at PG. The other two, I think reflect that the FO was unsure about our 3-point shooting and wanted a couple more guys who can do that. As for who Fizdale is going to play when he's on the hot seat - I don't know, what do you think?
2) Mitchell giving Barrett a really, really hard time and enjoying the heck out of it. Link - ( New Window )
Yeesh. Knox has work to do in the gym, quick snippet but looks exactly the same physically.
I don’t mind the front court signings, because we have no bodies, but the three guards make no sense. DSJ, Dotson, Trier, Frank, Barrett, Payton, Bollucks, Ellington....you have 8 players for 2-3 spots. Who do you think Fizdale are going to play when he’s on the hot seat?
No free agents are coming here for 30-win, Payton/Randle-led team. Still have to build through the draft and young players.
Despite numerous attempts to explain this, people still don't get that the Knicks are trying to create competition with these young kids and inject some veterans into the roster. This would be different from last year's team which basically had no real vet leadership and just a bunch of kids running around stupid.
As for the 8 players you mention, only 2 of them are PGs.
Dotson and Frank can't be guaranteed any kind of minutes or role. They must earn it.
Barrett might be the starting SG, but he'll also be the backup SF if Knox starts. Trier will also play both of those spots. That leaves 2 vets, neither of whom should expect to play as many minutes as they did last season.
But they do have a talented young core in RJ, Robinson, Knox, Trier and DSJ. Will they all become stars? No. Should they all be quality NBA players, yes.
They also have a tremendous amount of cap flexibility. As we near the trade deadline, they will have a half dozen expirings that can be used for teams who need to dump salary for picks.
Of course, they also have six first round picks over the next four seasons and Charlotte’s second round pick in 2020 and 2021. Those could easily be picks in the high 30’s. With the new lottery system, the bottom 10 teams will be in a position to move to top 3.
And finally, it was smart to sign quality vets as they have to start to show progress and win games and the young players need solid examples to learn from.
I might be a half-full kind of guy, but I think the Knicks are well situated for a very successful build process.
-1 is a young, serviceable pass-first PG, with some upside (and hope for D given DPOY in college). Also 1 yr
PG: EP, DSJ, KA, FN
SG: WE, Dot, Zo
SF: KK, RJ, RB, Iggy
Obviously depends on the lineup and there's a lot of overlap tho I listed each once. Nor is it a depth chart, just by position. And as said above, it's competition for the youngins and some NBA experience. So now it's more about lineups and who plays well with who, what style, etc
I'm hoping the best for KD, but cleared to play in 1 yr doesn't mean he hits his new 100%, likely for another yr. Esp an Achilles
Obviously some athletes might be other-worldly and heal that much quicker. But the biggest jumps were ACL or similar (AP, Welker etc)
IMO I still probably risk max on KD but that would be part of my thinking
These are basically his post ASB numbers (he was dealing with injuries in the first half of the year). 11 ppg, 6.5 rpg and 9 apg. He needs to improve his shooting and become a better defender but he's become a really good passer.
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Payton has a breakout year. 12-8-6 for him. I’m captaining the bandwagon
These are basically his post ASB numbers (he was dealing with injuries in the first half of the year). 11 ppg, 6.5 rpg and 9 apg. He needs to improve his shooting and become a better defender but he's become a really good passer.
Yup. He had 5 straight triple doubles at one point.
I'm curios to see him on D, can only judge him from here
That's when stars will want to sign with them.
I don’t mind the front court signings, because we have no bodies, but the three guards make no sense. DSJ, Dotson, Trier, Frank, Barrett, Payton, Bollucks, Ellington....you have 8 players for 2-3 spots. Who do you think Fizdale are going to play when he’s on the hot seat?
No free agents are coming here for 30-win, Payton/Randle-led team. Still have to build through the draft and young players.
But part of developing these players means playing with competent, high IQ players. Just shoving a guy out on the court without the right pieces around him can stunt their growth or develop bad habits in the process. Just like in football, earn your playing time. Just don't get it because you are young or were a high pick. One thing Fiz loves to do is put someone's ass on the bench if they are doing things the right way. I agree with that. So many coaches have gotten away from that so in an age where players run the team I appreciate that. Now we have legitimate players that'll push the young guys. On top of that, most players last year really responded on a positive way when playing time got taken away. Take a step back to take 2 forward.
Thank you. Someone here that is being realistic. The knicks are a joke and are now irrelevant in NY. Players don't want to play there and they don't have to and still get to play in the largest media market. Until ownership changes that will not change.
And all this self stroking about the picks and young players we have is just that. These guys aren't gonna be superstars. And the picks they have they will have to HOPE they nail a superstar or 2 in one of them because that is the only way they are getting them...that or trade.
Fact is they are destined to be constantly rebuilding through the draft because no one wants to play here. Constant mediocre teams, maybe making the playoffs then getting bounced. You need stars to win in this league and the Knicks are not in any position to get them until ownership changes.
Thats the truth of the situation. All this talk about developing these young guys is just garbage.
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Stars don't want to play with the Knicks. So until he sells the team it will be constant rebuilding with hoping to get the 8th seed and then go out in the 1st round. That's the BEST case scenario currently. You win with stars in this league and the Knicks have NONE.
Thank you. Someone here that is being realistic. The knicks are a joke and are now irrelevant in NY. Players don't want to play there and they don't have to and still get to play in the largest media market. Until ownership changes that will not change.
And all this self stroking about the picks and young players we have is just that. These guys aren't gonna be superstars. And the picks they have they will have to HOPE they nail a superstar or 2 in one of them because that is the only way they are getting them...that or trade.
Fact is they are destined to be constantly rebuilding through the draft because no one wants to play here. Constant mediocre teams, maybe making the playoffs then getting bounced. You need stars to win in this league and the Knicks are not in any position to get them until ownership changes.
Thats the truth of the situation. All this talk about developing these young guys is just garbage.
what a load of bullshit..
hiw did the sixers get their stars?
how about the warriors?
how about the bucks?
hiw about the spurs?
how about the nuggets?
getting stars through free agency is not the only way to get stars
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Stars don't want to play with the Knicks. So until he sells the team it will be constant rebuilding with hoping to get the 8th seed and then go out in the 1st round. That's the BEST case scenario currently. You win with stars in this league and the Knicks have NONE.
Thank you. Someone here that is being realistic. The knicks are a joke and are now irrelevant in NY. Players don't want to play there and they don't have to and still get to play in the largest media market. Until ownership changes that will not change.
And all this self stroking about the picks and young players we have is just that. These guys aren't gonna be superstars. And the picks they have they will have to HOPE they nail a superstar or 2 in one of them because that is the only way they are getting them...that or trade.
Fact is they are destined to be constantly rebuilding through the draft because no one wants to play here. Constant mediocre teams, maybe making the playoffs then getting bounced. You need stars to win in this league and the Knicks are not in any position to get them until ownership changes.
Thats the truth of the situation. All this talk about developing these young guys is just garbage.
When you attempt to quote Stan in LA for truth, it's time to take a long walk off a short pier.
And if the sky has already fallen why be a fan if they have no shot whatsoever and you have no interest in garbage / young players - because Dolan?
This isn't even being pessimistic, it's pointless. I mean you do you...
Draft some nice players
Trade them and some future picks for a former All-Star
Introduce Stoudemire or Marbury or Anthony or whoever as the next savior.
Stink.
Send the savior packing.
Stink some more.
Draft some nice players...
Like it or not, Durant and Kyrie were absolutely correct to head for a team where they were the completion of a base of players, not the beginning.
If Barrett, Mitchell, Knox, Randle and one or two of the other guys can grow into mature, complete players, the Knicks will be able to attract talent to go with that. The way Perry et al designed this, with 5 team option second years and a bunch of future #1 picks, gives them a real opportunity if the youngsters show real talent. The Garden IS a great place to play, if you have a full, talented team.
Agree with this.
I completely disagree with this. To me this seems like looking at a situation and disregarding nuance: It's like saying that the Knicks were bad last year, they are supposed to be bad this year, it must be that nothing has changed and they will be bad forever. When from many people's perspective, even though they still won't be that good of a team this year, the Knicks are finally building a team in a responsible and systematic way. Acknowledging that the team will still be bad but in an effort to slowly build a solid foundation allows for the possibility that things may eventually break their way.
To me it's like if you had a friend who was overweight. That friend, who is still overweight, then began to eat right and exercise. The argument presented here would tell the friend that there is no point in eating right and exercising because they still have the same brain and are doomed to fail because change is impossible. The only hope for the person to be thin is liposuction and a lobotomy. Obviously I disagree with that argument and feel like the best course of action would be to support the friend in the hopes that they can continue eating right and exercising and eventually attain their goal.
@NYPost_Berman
Knicks have one slot remaining on 15-man roster and with Kornet to the Bulls, Lance Thomas favorite to land slot, per source.
@NYPost_Berman
Knicks have one slot remaining on 15-man roster and with Kornet to the Bulls, Lance Thomas favorite to land slot, per source.
It wouldn't surprise me. It's apparent that coaches appreciate him. Through multiple GM's and countless of head coaches they have not only kept him on the roster but regularly used him.
Jay Williams, an ESPN broadcaster and Durant buddy, told The Post the free-agent superstar had associates trying to pull him toward Broadway over Barclays Center.
“To give insight, there were people in his camp that wanted him to go to the Knicks,’’ Williams said in a phone interview. “It’s not like: Here’s the Brooklyn Nets and that’s it. Kevin’s his own dude. His relationship with Kyrie [Irving] was the differentiator to the whole thing.”
Williams may have been referring to Durant’s agent/manager Rich Kleiman, a New York resident and Williams’ business partner on the ESPN+ show “The Boardroom.”
Williams also clarified earlier comments he made on a podcast suggesting Durant would have given more consideration to the Knicks if they hadn’t traded Porzingis.
Williams said he was parroting a conversation on Stephen A. Smith’s radio show in which Smith brought up Durant nicknaming Porzingis “The Unicorn’’ and perhaps wanting to play with him.
Williams said it was no factor.
“It was something Stephen A. said earlier, and I referenced it,’’ Williams said. “I don’t think it had anything to do with Porzingis. It was not the difference-maker with the Knicks and Kevin.”
Williams said he believes Durant did not want to pass on an opportunity to live in New York and unite with Irving like they did on the 2016 Olympic team. The Porzingis trade opened up that possibility. Williams disputed owner James Dolan played a role.
“I think they’re more than friends,’’ Williams said of Durant and Irving. “They’re like brothers. It’s not just like, ‘Hey we’re a friend.’ That relationship to him is very special. In the culture of basketball, people are trying to tear you apart and go different ways. They took the journey they had and they really understand each other. It came down to his relationship with Kyrie. It was a difference-maker, man.”
Williams can’t say if Durant would have been more emboldened to join the Knicks solo if he didn’t rupture his Achilles tendon and have Irving as a crosstown rival.
As much as Williams says the “Knicks, Nets, Golden State were really, really there on the table,” it sounded like New York’s teams were the front-runners.....
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But I thought it was Dolan and the poisoned culture he's cultivated...
I agree with this.
Because they already have good depth, while the Lakers have like 4 players
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why arent more vets signing with the nets? i am surprised
Because they already have good depth, while the Lakers have like 4 players
the nets have good depth? , who is their starting and back up 4?
back up shooting guard? back up point?
nets hardly have depth
My favorite signings we did were Randle and Portis. Both guys are young and talented. Happy to have them
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In comment 14490203 nygiants16 said:
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why arent more vets signing with the nets? i am surprised
Because they already have good depth, while the Lakers have like 4 players
the nets have good depth? , who is their starting and back up 4?
back up shooting guard? back up point?
nets hardly have depth
Hardly any depth? Aside from Kyrie, Dinwiddie, Levert, Prince, Harris, Jordan, Hollis-Jefferson, Kurucs, Allen, Temple. That's 9 rotation players right there.
Back up point? Spencer Dinwiddie, pretty damn good back up point
At the four, there's no traditional four, but with Deandre, they can space the lineup with shooters. They have a lot of versatile players that can play multiple positions.
Don't know why he's still on Net page on ESPN, LOL. Deandre is strong presence inside, so you don't need a traditional four in that sense. You could get away with playing combo forwards, like how you see the warriors, bucks, and raptors do it. Guys like Middleton, tobias. Obviously Nets dont have those guys so they'll have to figure it out, probably need to add one more guy.
Like it or not, Durant and Kyrie were absolutely correct to head for a team where they were the completion of a base of players, not the beginning.
If Barrett, Mitchell, Knox, Randle and one or two of the other guys can grow into mature, complete players, the Knicks will be able to attract talent to go with that. The way Perry et al designed this, with 5 team option second years and a bunch of future #1 picks, gives them a real opportunity if the youngsters show real talent. The Garden IS a great place to play, if you have a full, talented team.
I agree.
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He remains an UFA. Also I don’t really get your DeAndre point. How does he enable you to run with 4 shooters?
Don't know why he's still on Net page on ESPN, LOL. Deandre is strong presence inside, so you don't need a traditional four in that sense. You could get away with playing combo forwards, like how you see the warriors, bucks, and raptors do it. Guys like Middleton, tobias. Obviously Nets dont have those guys so they'll have to figure it out, probably need to add one more guy.
deandre is not a force anymore, dude is washed, he isnnot protecting anything
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But I thought it was Dolan and the poisoned culture he's cultivated...
Media nonsense talking points.
If Durant was healthy, he would've chosen the Knicks and been a lot more likely to convince another star to come with him. With him injured and the state of the Knicks roster, the other stars weren't interested and Kyrie pulled him across town. Making everything under the sun about Dolan is just dumb.
In comment 14490469 Greg from LI said:
Why can’t we have a Knick thread and a Nets thread and then each fan base can discuss their team not both teams?
In comment 14490469 Greg from LI said:
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I can't deal with a SIXTH(!!!!!!) season of Lance Thomas.
Um. Isn't that why they brought in Taj Gibson, Reggie Bullock, Wayne Ellington? How many veterans do you need on a roster? Heck, Portis is going into year 5, Payton year 6. They have more than enough "veterans" on this roster.
The Jazz also reached agreement with free-agent point guard Emmanuel Mudiay on a one-year deal, sources told ESPN.
No it isn’t. They’ll never land free agents if the consistently win below 25 games.
And the kid from Oregon, Kenny Wooten, is on our summer league team - he's someone I'd rather see than Lance. (I guess almost anyone is, but specifically ...)
Why can’t we have a Knick thread and a Nets thread and then each fan base can discuss their team not both teams?
Because nobody cares about the Nets, if they had a thread for the team it would get maybe 15 replies. Trolling the Knicks thread is really the only option they have if they want to talk basketball.
They just signed Kyrie Irving and Kevin Durant 2 days ago and are already an afterthought. Everything you see from the talking heads now is centered around where will Kawhi land and reactions to the Knicks missing out or what do the Knicks do next. Even when the Nets hit it big, everyone still would rather discuss the Knicks.
Sounds like a Bitchsmack Biyombo. He'd lose a one-on-none game.
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The Nets are just another franchise like the Celts and Sixers. Why does every thread end up in a debate about the Nets, or the culture of the Nets or who is better on the Nets.
Why can’t we have a Knick thread and a Nets thread and then each fan base can discuss their team not both teams?
Because nobody cares about the Nets, if they had a thread for the team it would get maybe 15 replies. Trolling the Knicks thread is really the only option they have if they want to talk basketball.
They just signed Kyrie Irving and Kevin Durant 2 days ago and are already an afterthought. Everything you see from the talking heads now is centered around where will Kawhi land and reactions to the Knicks missing out or what do the Knicks do next. Even when the Nets hit it big, everyone still would rather discuss the Knicks.
I really don't understand these ridiculous comments. Why do some feel the need to call out the size of another fan base?
Wow a team that was once in NJ and is now in Brooklyn has a smaller fan base than a NY team! That is so shocking? Does the size of a fan base have any affect on basketball knowledge or team performance?
As a Knicks fan this offseason has been a huge let down. The Nets deserve credit for attracting both Durant and Irving and they are headed in the right direction. The Knicks have some exciting young players in Barrett and Robinson but the Nets are a much better current team. Who gives a shit about the size of their fan base.
Not just NJ - how could you forget the Island Garden in West Hempstead, much less the Nassau Coliseum?
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In comment 14490539 PhilSimms15 said:
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The Nets are just another franchise like the Celts and Sixers. Why does every thread end up in a debate about the Nets, or the culture of the Nets or who is better on the Nets.
Why can’t we have a Knick thread and a Nets thread and then each fan base can discuss their team not both teams?
Because nobody cares about the Nets, if they had a thread for the team it would get maybe 15 replies. Trolling the Knicks thread is really the only option they have if they want to talk basketball.
They just signed Kyrie Irving and Kevin Durant 2 days ago and are already an afterthought. Everything you see from the talking heads now is centered around where will Kawhi land and reactions to the Knicks missing out or what do the Knicks do next. Even when the Nets hit it big, everyone still would rather discuss the Knicks.
I really don't understand these ridiculous comments. Why do some feel the need to call out the size of another fan base?
Wow a team that was once in NJ and is now in Brooklyn has a smaller fan base than a NY team! That is so shocking? Does the size of a fan base have any affect on basketball knowledge or team performance?
As a Knicks fan this offseason has been a huge let down. The Nets deserve credit for attracting both Durant and Irving and they are headed in the right direction. The Knicks have some exciting young players in Barrett and Robinson but the Nets are a much better current team. Who gives a shit about the size of their fan base.
Just spit balling, but maybe because even when the thread title states "Knicks chat" Nets fans seem to want to chime in about their own team. Why is that?
If the thread was titled NBA chat, that would be all well and good, but it's not.
its quite upsetting, i usually go courtside nets 2-3 times a year--- i think the line will be longer or the ask quite a bit higher this year- which is funny cause its not like they will even have KD- so early on the product should only be marginally better
My uncle was in high school then and said how they used to go to games just for something to do, the tickets were so cheap and the arena would be mostly empty. They were so desperate for attendance that they did weird promotions like Bread Night - come to the game and you get a free loaf of bread.
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Not just NJ - how could you forget the Island Garden in West Hempstead, much less the Nassau Coliseum?
My uncle was in high school then and said how they used to go to games just for something to do, the tickets were so cheap and the arena would be mostly empty. They were so desperate for attendance that they did weird promotions like Bread Night - come to the game and you get a free loaf of bread.
i used sit 3 rows from the court behind visters bench when they were in jersey
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Not just NJ - how could you forget the Island Garden in West Hempstead, much less the Nassau Coliseum?
My uncle was in high school then and said how they used to go to games just for something to do, the tickets were so cheap and the arena would be mostly empty. They were so desperate for attendance that they did weird promotions like Bread Night - come to the game and you get a free loaf of bread.
Those were the days. I was away in college during most of those years so didn't get to many games given the season, but I got to some. The 1973-74 championship team was great though - with Dr J, Billy Paultz, Larry Kenon, John Williamson et al. Fun team to watch.
Just spit balling, but maybe because even when the thread title states "Knicks chat" Nets fans seem to want to chime in about their own team. Why is that?
If the thread was titled NBA chat, that would be all well and good, but it's not.
I have no idea. I see it all the time on Mets/Yankees threads also. If they want to contribute that's great unless it is just to mock the team.
Simmons had the Celtics down for how many wins this past year? 67 or 68 I believe? He was also one of the many alleged insiders who said KD to the Knicks was a lock.
Simmons, being a Celtics fan, has a hardon for "assets". Nothing's more valuable than draft picks. And Cousins has no market. Nobody wants him. He just fired his agent and got a new one.