NFT: Knicks chat 7/2

In comment 14489523 DanMetroMan said:

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don't personally like Frank as a player and hated the pick but I get the feeling the Knicks gave up on him almost immediately, weird usage, weird comments, "studs" like Mudiay, Burke, DSJ and finally Allen all seemed to be higher on Fiz's "like" list and now they add Payton AND are looking at other PG's. Talk about a disaster pick.

To not even get a starter let alone rotation player out of the 8th overall pick is a complete disaster. I really hope he turns it around, but he would have to make a historic improvement on offense to do so...

In comment 14489515 DanMetroMan said:

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\ Very confused. These other bad teams don't go through similar stretches and issues? It's what makes them bad. Kevin Love missed 60 games. The Knicks were not expected to be THAT bad. BR before the year "Projected Record: 28-54"... they won 17 games.

I can't speak for that projection. I thought they were one of the worst 2 or 3 teams in the sport before the season. The Knicks just happened to lose quite a few close games for a team that was so bad. If that luck can turn around, there's no reason to think they can't be 5-10 wins better IMO. It won't mean anything at the end of the day.

had a +6 ws

Twice as much per year as the Warriors just paid Kevon Looney?

Oof.

T-13. New York Knicks
Projected record: 28-54
Last season: 29-53

New coach David Fizdale won't have the services of a still-rehabbing Kristaps Porzingis to start the season. But lots of reps for Kevin Knox and securing another lottery pick probably isn't the worst outcome for a Knicks team hoping it can lure an elite star to New York during the summer of 2019.

Maybe you were the outlier and they were supposed to be bad but not THIS bad.

We'll see how the trade turns out in the long run. But 2 things are undeniable.

1) He was taking the 158 million before last season or this summer. 0% chance he takes the QO and passes up that money. Don't care how unhappy or disgruntled he was.

2) Knicks could have received more if they weren't looking to dump Hardaway and Lee.

In comment 14489534 santacruzom said:

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Twice as much per year as the Warriors just paid Kevon Looney? Oof.

Kevon Looney isn't any good and Taj Gibson's sole purpose on the Knicks is to help Mitchell Robinson become a professional in all aspects. Plus, it's 1 year.

In comment 14489534 santacruzom said:

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Twice as much per year as the Warriors just paid Kevon Looney? Oof.

he has a team option, if he was taking less money he was not taking less money

In comment 14489534 santacruzom said:

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Twice as much per year as the Warriors just paid Kevon Looney? Oof.

Which team is a player more likely to accept less money from - the Warriors or the Knicks?

In comment 14489541 nygiants16 said:

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In comment 14489534 santacruzom said: Quote: Twice as much per year as the Warriors just paid Kevon Looney? Oof. he has a team option, if he was taking less money he was not taking less money

that should say hr was not taking a team option

Please Kawhi, sign with the Lakers already, so 28 other teams can join the Knicks in the JV League.

In comment 14489248 Chris684 said:

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Don't even get me started on Kyrie Irving.

Once I realized the Knicks needed to give up resources to get KD (Russell is a solid asset) and that KD and Irving was a packaged deal; I was fine with the Knicks missing out.

Considering it was a sign and trade the Knicks would have needed to give up RJ or a high first-round pick possibly multiple first rounders. That would have seriously limited the team's ability to build around KD.

In comment 14489534 santacruzom said:

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Twice as much per year as the Warriors just paid Kevon Looney? Oof.

It’s hard to get people to join a losing team. It’s easy to get complimentary pieces to stay at home and make the playoffs.

are writing off Elfrid Payton too easily. I think there’s upside there. He’s who
I’m second most excited about. Third is Portis but he’s such an awful defender that it almost counteracts anything he does positively offensively.

In comment 14489540 shockeyisthebest8056 said:

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In comment 14489534 santacruzom said: Quote: Twice as much per year as the Warriors just paid Kevon Looney? Oof. Kevon Looney isn't any good and Taj Gibson's sole purpose on the Knicks is to help Mitchell Robinson become a professional in all aspects. Plus, it's 1 year.

I’m gonna guess you never saw Looney play

In comment 14489547 haper said:

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In comment 14489248 Chris684 said: Quote: Don't even get me started on Kyrie Irving. Once I realized the Knicks needed to give up resources to get KD (Russell is a solid asset) and that KD and Irving was a packaged deal; I was fine with the Knicks missing out. Considering it was a sign and trade the Knicks would have needed to give up RJ or a high first-round pick possibly multiple first rounders. That would have seriously limited the team's ability to build around KD.

knicks would not have had to give up rj, if he went to knicks probably no sign and trade

In comment 14489549 Jon in NYC said:

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are writing off Elfrid Payton too easily. I think there’s upside there. He’s who I’m second most excited about. Third is Portis but he’s such an awful defender that it almost counteracts anything he does positively offensively.

If you want to be excited about Payton, that’s fine. You do you, lol

Everyone has a choice

In comment 14489540 shockeyisthebest8056 said:

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In comment 14489534 santacruzom said: Quote: Twice as much per year as the Warriors just paid Kevon Looney? Oof. Kevon Looney isn't any good and Taj Gibson's sole purpose on the Knicks is to help Mitchell Robinson become a professional in all aspects. Plus, it's 1 year.

Looney is a better player than Taj Gibson...

Mavs had another horrible offseason

absolutely hates Portis with their CARMELO system, basically calls him worthless in todays game. Randle was the only signing the system "liked" and even then he's being paid what he should. Had them overpaying Bullock by double, Portis by 10 times!

In comment 14489564 DanMetroMan said:

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absolutely hates Portis with their CARMELO system, basically calls him worthless in todays game. Randle was the only signing the system "liked" and even then he's being paid what he should. Had them overpaying Bullock by double, Portis by 10 times!

They liked Payton too. Slight overpay but again, you have to overpay guys to go to losing teams. Portis Bullock and Ellington are bench shooters. Not much more.

In comment 14489556 Nine-Tails said:

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I’m gonna guess you never saw Looney play

Mitchell Robinson blocked more shots last year than Looney blocked in 4 years. He can't hit a three. He can't hit a free throw. He's not exactly Dennis Rodman defensively. He's not that good. He's serviceable. Would I rather pay him 5 million than pay Taj Gibson 10 million? Sure, but it's not like the Knicks are missing out on anything special.

I didn't realize the Warriors traded a 1st to Brooklyn for Russell. Good lord Sean Marks deserves some praise. He got the team he swiped Durant from to also send him a 1st round for a player they were letting walk? Kudos to him.

Don't really get the Russell move for Golden State. Why not shop Iguodola and the 2 firsts they just traded for a player that fit better?

In comment 14489564 DanMetroMan said:

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absolutely hates Portis with their CARMELO system, basically calls him worthless in todays game. Randle was the only signing the system "liked" and even then he's being paid what he should. Had them overpaying Bullock by double, Portis by 10 times!

Yet we're supposed to blindly drink the kool aid.

.

Theres a min cap, there's a ton of cap space, and next year, and the year after, NYK has ALL OF IT available

And while I'm not writing home about these FAs, they are pros, hard-working, all but Taj are young. They have upside in spite of warts - I AM concerned about D as it's hard to build the foundation with poor defenders - yet it's value even if not long term

Perry has been here 2 yrs this month. This is how patience looks and feels, like it or not. No one is drinking cool-aid

In comment 14489592 ChaChing said:

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Theres a min cap, there's a ton of cap space, and next year, and the year after, NYK has ALL OF IT available And while I'm not writing home about these FAs, they are pros, hard-working, all but Taj are young. They have upside in spite of warts - I AM concerned about D as it's hard to build the foundation with poor defenders - yet it's value even if not long term Perry has been here 2 yrs this month. This is how patience looks and feels, like it or not. No one is drinking cool-aid

Ellington is 32 this season. Bullock is 28 this will be his 8th season, I wouldn't call either one of them "young" implying some upside.

In comment 14489540 shockeyisthebest8056 said:

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In comment 14489534 santacruzom said: Quote: Twice as much per year as the Warriors just paid Kevon Looney? Oof. Kevon Looney isn't any good and Taj Gibson's sole purpose on the Knicks is to help Mitchell Robinson become a professional in all aspects. Plus, it's 1 year.

Well that's true... I suppose this is may be yet another instance of the Knicks getting the last laugh at the Warriors' expense.

In comment 14489592 ChaChing said:

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Theres a min cap, there's a ton of cap space, and next year, and the year after, NYK has ALL OF IT available And while I'm not writing home about these FAs, they are pros, hard-working, all but Taj are young. They have upside in spite of warts - I AM concerned about D as it's hard to build the foundation with poor defenders - yet it's value even if not long term Perry has been here 2 yrs this month. This is how patience looks and feels, like it or not. No one is drinking cool-aid

Wouldn't exactly describe the guys they signed as hard working competitors winning types- especially on D. Portis and Randle didn't try on defense last year- and that was in a contract year.

Perry's been here 2 years and the only truly impressive move he's made is the Robinson draft pick. How patient do we have to be?

In comment 14489595 DanMetroMan said:

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In comment 14489592 ChaChing said: Quote: Theres a min cap, there's a ton of cap space, and next year, and the year after, NYK has ALL OF IT available And while I'm not writing home about these FAs, they are pros, hard-working, all but Taj are young. They have upside in spite of warts - I AM concerned about D as it's hard to build the foundation with poor defenders - yet it's value even if not long term Perry has been here 2 yrs this month. This is how patience looks and feels, like it or not. No one is drinking cool-aid Ellington is 32 this season. Bullock is 28 this will be his 8th season, I wouldn't call either one of them "young" implying some upside.

Fair enough, I didn't realize they were older. But Randle, Portis, Payton are. Not to mention Ellington & Bullock are shooters...something we need anyway, so it's still value

And regardless, those are 1 yr contracts. Not saying they should burn money, but that's not whats happening. 2nd and 3rd tier FAs weren't coming here anyway. This is what was available (tho agreed, I'd like more info on the 'pick for cap' options but we don't have the details to judge)

Are finally doing the right thing, the fans crying yet are just clueless. Getting a Durant coming off a torn achilles was never going to be a smart move, the Nets did what they needed to do, they are ready to make this move, the Knicks are not. Now is the time to finally build this thing right, and then when this team starts to win, they will draw free agent stars here, it has little to do with who the owner is, although he never helps the situation when he opens his mouth.

In comment 14489573 TyreeHelmet said:

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I didn't realize the Warriors traded a 1st to Brooklyn for Russell. Good lord Sean Marks deserves some praise. He got the team he swiped Durant from to also send him a 1st round for a player they were letting walk? Kudos to him. Don't really get the Russell move for Golden State. Why not shop Iguodola and the 2 firsts they just traded for a player that fit better?

Yeah, it's pretty remarkable how much that Nets team has transformed in a few years. Who was on that team in 2015? Anyone good at all?

I'm also pretty skeptical about the Russell move working out for the Warriors, but at least they were able to leverage the departure of Durant to acquire a valuable asset. I won't surprised if Russell is traded this season, unless Klay won't be returning near the deadline (certainly possible).

How long did you expect a 'patient, build thru draft' to take? That's silly. And my point, we can't just make A+ moves all day every day. And what's more, NYK DIDNT do anything stupid

I know, not exciting. But if you've been a NYK fan for a few decades, it actually is (or at least a SHOT at something different)

In comment 14489605 PaulN said:

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Are finally doing the right thing, the fans crying yet are just clueless. Getting a Durant coming off a torn achilles was never going to be a smart move, the Nets did what they needed to do, they are ready to make this move, the Knicks are not. Now is the time to finally build this thing right, and then when this team starts to win, they will draw free agent stars here, it has little to do with who the owner is, although he never helps the situation when he opens his mouth.

Clueless? Multiple NBA execs (who presumably know more than us the fans) questioned why the Knicks weren't using cap space to land picks like other teams did. It's okay to question the Knicks moves without being "against" a rebuild. 99% of this site has been arguing for a rebuild for years, the people wanting to "win now" are the minority.

In comment 14489607 ChaChing said:

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How long did you expect a 'patient, build thru draft' to take? That's silly. And my point, we can't just make A+ moves all day every day. And what's more, NYK DIDNT do anything stupid I know, not exciting. But if you've been a NYK fan for a few decades, it actually is (or at least a SHOT at something different)

Sorry but I have higher hopes than our GM "not doing anything dumb". I'd like to see some smart moves and good young players brought in. He hasn't done that yet and 2 years is plenty of time to do that. Don't forget the Knicks had to give up a 2nd round pick to hire Scott Perry...

Look what Sean Marks accomplished in 3 years. I'm sorry but I am not impressed with anything him or Mills have done.

Steve Popper
@StevePopper
·
1h
Kris Wilkes is sick so not on the Knicks summer league roster. The undrafted rookie is still expected to sign a two-way with the team.

In comment 14489605 PaulN said:

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Are finally doing the right thing, the fans crying yet are just clueless. Getting a Durant coming off a torn achilles was never going to be a smart move, the Nets did what they needed to do, they are ready to make this move, the Knicks are not. Now is the time to finally build this thing right, and then when this team starts to win, they will draw free agent stars here, it has little to do with who the owner is, although he never helps the situation when he opens his mouth.

Clueless.


Mike Vorkunov
@MikeVorkunov
·
21h
Multiple league executives questioned why the Knicks were not willing to use their cap space to take on bad contracts in an attempt to add future assets.

He's competent, but he certainly hasn't come across as a great chess player.

In comment 14489617 TyreeHelmet said:

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In comment 14489607 ChaChing said: Quote: How long did you expect a 'patient, build thru draft' to take? That's silly. And my point, we can't just make A+ moves all day every day. And what's more, NYK DIDNT do anything stupid I know, not exciting. But if you've been a NYK fan for a few decades, it actually is (or at least a SHOT at something different) Sorry but I have higher hopes than our GM "not doing anything dumb". I'd like to see some smart moves and good young players brought in. He hasn't done that yet and 2 years is plenty of time to do that. Don't forget the Knicks had to give up a 2nd round pick to hire Scott Perry... Look what Sean Marks accomplished in 3 years. I'm sorry but I am not impressed with anything him or Mills have done.

I knoe you hate everything knicks right now, but you see no good players on this team?

i get you hste everythkng snd that is fine, i get it, but i dont see hoe you see no good nba players on this roster

In comment 14489617 TyreeHelmet said:

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In comment 14489607 ChaChing said: Quote: How long did you expect a 'patient, build thru draft' to take? That's silly. And my point, we can't just make A+ moves all day every day. And what's more, NYK DIDNT do anything stupid I know, not exciting. But if you've been a NYK fan for a few decades, it actually is (or at least a SHOT at something different) Sorry but I have higher hopes than our GM "not doing anything dumb". I'd like to see some smart moves and good young players brought in. He hasn't done that yet and 2 years is plenty of time to do that. Don't forget the Knicks had to give up a 2nd round pick to hire Scott Perry... Look what Sean Marks accomplished in 3 years. I'm sorry but I am not impressed with anything him or Mills have done.

Wait, so now you're saying you can't wait 2 years because someone else did it in 3?

What was BKs record LAST yr? 28-54. Even on your ridiculous time frame, you're jumping the gun. Flipping a franchise from perennial loser to even 1 winning record takes longer save randomness & luck, that's obvious

And that's ignoring cherry picking the team that JUST happened to land the premier FA (as if ANY other team can compare or plan accordingly...as we just saw)

In comment 14489624 bceagle05 said:

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He's competent, but he certainly hasn't come across as a great chess player.

he seems to value flexibility contract wise rather than jusy acquirkng players with picks...

He is not willing to take a guaranteed 2 year contract for 1 first...

the one thing i will say he did a good job of basically controlling the entire roster and every contract

hate the Knicks and would have questioned whatever they did

In comment 14489626 ChaChing said:

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In comment 14489617 TyreeHelmet said: Quote: In comment 14489607 ChaChing said: Quote: How long did you expect a 'patient, build thru draft' to take? That's silly. And my point, we can't just make A+ moves all day every day. And what's more, NYK DIDNT do anything stupid I know, not exciting. But if you've been a NYK fan for a few decades, it actually is (or at least a SHOT at something different) Sorry but I have higher hopes than our GM "not doing anything dumb". I'd like to see some smart moves and good young players brought in. He hasn't done that yet and 2 years is plenty of time to do that. Don't forget the Knicks had to give up a 2nd round pick to hire Scott Perry... Look what Sean Marks accomplished in 3 years. I'm sorry but I am not impressed with anything him or Mills have done. Wait, so now you're saying you can't wait 2 years because someone else did it in 3? What was BKs record LAST yr? 28-54. Even on your ridiculous time frame, you're jumping the gun. Flipping a franchise from perennial loser to even 1 winning record takes longer save randomness & luck, that's obvious And that's ignoring cherry picking the team that JUST happened to land the premier FA (as if ANY other team can compare or plan accordingly...as we just saw)

Perry's first offseason with the team the Knicks didn't have cap space. They did however draft Robinson in the 2nd round and sign Trier as an UDFA. Are those not impressive young players?

Also, are we just going to forget the offer sheets Marks signed Porter, Crabbe and Tyler Johnson to? They lucked out that those were all matched and Marks has done an excellent job but nobody's perfect.

In comment 14489628 nygiants16 said:

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In comment 14489624 bceagle05 said: Quote: He's competent, but he certainly hasn't come across as a great chess player. he seems to value flexibility contract wise rather than jusy acquirkng players with picks... He is not willing to take a guaranteed 2 year contract for 1 first... the one thing i will say he did a good job of basically controlling the entire roster and every contract

Igoudala and Harkless both have one year remaining on their contracts.

In comment 14489628 nygiants16 said:

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In comment 14489624 bceagle05 said: Quote: He's competent, but he certainly hasn't come across as a great chess player. he seems to value flexibility contract wise rather than jusy acquirkng players with picks... He is not willing to take a guaranteed 2 year contract for 1 first... the one thing i will say he did a good job of basically controlling the entire roster and every contract

Maybe I'm giving them too much credit but I wonder if passing up on those deals was a calculated gamble for the Knicks, knowing that they essentially have ~$50M worth of expiring contracts for the next two years. With much of the league having cap space this year, I wouldn't be surprised if next year with more teams capped out if they can get more than they would this time around by trading some of those guys.

1. picks for cap?
2. the D. I've said it's tough to build the mindset if no one has it to start
3. Did they really try for 1st tier FAs? KD was out when he got hurt, and 'aggressively pursue Kawhi' either was fluff or failed behind-the-scenes

Knicks are FAAAR from perfect here. But acting like everything done was shit, or bitching about the cost is silly. The $ actually makes them tradeable assets because save a drastic fall off, as players they all have some value. And expecting a huge jump over 1 offseason is nuts (save big FA news which we've seen you can't really plan for or rely on)

I actually respect your optimism and it shows how loyal Knicks fans are.

But how exactly are Mills/ Perry doing in "the right way"? And what moves have they made the last 2 years that give you any confidence they can build a winner? I'm all for being patient, I just haven't seen anything to have any faith in them. Perry is a first time GM and Mills is... Mills to put it kindly.I personally think this free agency was awful but we'll have to agree to disagree on that.

Outside of the Robinson pick, he's shown zero ability to build a winner. I hope I'm wrong I just don't see it. And no I'm not cheering for them for not making any bad or dumb moves....

in mind 3 of the "younger" additions are known to be below average defensive players.. Portis, Randle and Payton so unless Taj Gibson is Bill Russell I find it hard to believe the Knicks defensive will be even close to "good" next season. Who are the good defensive players?

On the opposite side of the ledger... DSJ, Randle, Portis, Payton, Knox, Trier, Barrett all figure to play major minutes and either are proven to be poor defenders or haven't proven otherwise.

The bigger issue isn't D this season, but a defensive mindset. But you're not getting multiple 2-way players, or even have all these options given you can't land tiers 1-3. Hell you're lucky to get a Portis Randle Payton who do have more than one skill on O, have improved even if it's not enough / only for a yr, and are young enough. So - tho they are MOSTLY just 1 yr contracts, priority #1 - they also have some upside. There's value there

Yes, 10000x I wish there was D. Not excusing this, just have to wait and see. That doesn't make every contract bad, overpaid, a poor decision. This isn't even optimism, just objectivity (or an attempt at it!)

push the whole "us against the world" mantra going forward with the core group of young guys - put a massive chip on their shoulder about everyone thinking they suck, free agents not wanting to play here, Brooklyn's taking over the city, etc. I know it's cliche, but young guys will buy into that type of stuff. This team needs a competitive edge.