How are we all feeling? Personally, I like what they’re doing. The highlights:
-Young, hungry players on short term contracts competing. Hopefully this helps everyone get better.
-All future draft picks in place in addition to picks from the KP trade.
-Maintaining cap flexibility going forward.
If there is one thing I’ve realized, tanking is way overblown. The Knicks don’t be a FA destination until they win. Going out there and competing is the next thing for them right now. Need to build a culture.
Barrett has that mentality on the court always it seems. Randle is another guy who seems to just play angry. If Fizdale can light a fire under the rest of the guys it could be fun to watch.
But how exactly are Mills/ Perry doing in "the right way"? And what moves have they made the last 2 years that give you any confidence they can build a winner? I'm all for being patient, I just haven't seen anything to have any faith in them. Perry is a first time GM and Mills is... Mills to put it kindly.I personally think this free agency was awful but we'll have to agree to disagree on that.
Outside of the Robinson pick, he's shown zero ability to build a winner. I hope I'm wrong I just don't see it. And no I'm not cheering for them for not making any bad or dumb moves....
Kept picks, not splurged on 2nd tier FAs after missing on the main targets, completely cleared cap space, now for each yr for 2 years. When's the last time NYK did that for any offseason? That's the meat and potatoes, even if there were other / better moves too
And I don't completely disagree with you. Perry's history is imperfect. And if it's too soon to say he's bad, well it's too soon to say good
FA sucked, but to put that on Perry is rough. Aside from the fact most decisions are made among players, he's always said we're keeping flexible for FAs and build organically. Exactly what their actions show (also rare for NYK). We can debate the specific players, but once you sift out tiers 1-3 or 4, what's left? And of those, who wants NYK? Who takes a 1 yr deal? Cost actually makes sense from that view
I'm far more concerned few players have improved under Fiz. Not much change in D or effort over the season. And 2 young guys lost confidence. But it's only been 1 yr, even if IMO he better show progress this go around...
Also, if I'm not wrong, the Knicks could still take on bad contracts for picks if the right opportunity comes along can't they? Sure they can't absorb a contract now, but they can still trade some of these 1 and 1's for a longer contract. I was under the impression that most salary dumps happen this way anyway: one team trades a longer contract for some expirings.
Just my view on why I think some people are being a bit too critical. I still feel like some people treat sports as if it were math. Sports won't output the same results every time. There isn't a clear cut way to do things. Sometimes a team can do everything seemingly "right" and get poor results while others, like the Lakers, can seemingly do everything "wrong" and just happen across wins, or at least a team that looks like it will win on paper.
Not making known dumb decisions, in my mind, is the only way to position a team to hopefully get lucky sometime in the future. It just hasn't happened yet with this Knicks team because until about two years ago they have been making known dumb decisions. To me, 2 years in sports terms is basically nothing.
I'm not asking him to build a contender overnight. But its now been 2 years and I've yet to see him making any moves that the best GMs routinely pull off.
That's the ridiculousness of fans criticizing non-moves. You literally have little idea of what moves have been discussed, let alone the details behind the moves.
I'm not asking him to build a contender overnight. But its now been 2 years and I've yet to see him making any moves that the best GMs routinely pull off.
After all thats transpired over the years, I don't find it hard to believe, nor unreasonable that the Knicks targeted guys that they specifically knew would offer a strong locker room presence and who were more than happy to be in NY for the Knicks. They need to change the perception desperately.
Also, this was discussed yesterday but Kendrick Perkins all but confirmed that the Knicks weren't willing to offer Durant the full max. He said on ESPN that KD was offended by it and it turned him off to them.
There's actually theory among some Warriors fans that Durant actually was strongly considering going to the Knicks... until they traded Porzingis. Though this seems to be based on nothing more than the fact that it was Durant who coined KP's "Unicorn" nickname, so as always, it's just sports fan detective work and we should all feel lucky they're not solving actual crimes.
That's the ridiculousness of fans criticizing non-moves. You literally have little idea of what moves have been discussed, let alone the details behind the moves.
It's not just fans. Media people (some, not all) have joined in the "trade for bad contracts and picks" brigade. Until the Knicks possess every pick of the 2023 draft, these people are going to complain.
You can't hide forever
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you have no clue what opportunities have been looked at.
That's the ridiculousness of fans criticizing non-moves. You literally have little idea of what moves have been discussed, let alone the details behind the moves.
It's not just fans. Media people (some, not all) have joined in the "trade for bad contracts and picks" brigade. Until the Knicks possess every pick of the 2023 draft, these people are going to complain.
This is what happens. It wasn't long ago that the prevailing belief was that teams had to tank in order to rebuild after seeing what it brought for the Sixers. Now it's that teams must take on bad contracts for future draft capital. Bottom line though is that there is more than one way to rebuild...
i dont like simmons but its actually quite comical.
UCLA you mean. He's apparently "under the weather" according to Berman so he won't play but it's not a serious illness. It's a bit disappointing since he needs the reps but he'll get his time in the gleague.
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Turn the question around. He hasn’t made any bad moves unless you consider the Porzingis trade a bad move which I don’t.
There's actually theory among some Warriors fans that Durant actually was strongly considering going to the Knicks... until they traded Porzingis. Though this seems to be based on nothing more than the fact that it was Durant who coined KP's "Unicorn" nickname, so as always, it's just sports fan detective work and we should all feel lucky they're not solving actual crimes.
it's not some "fan theory", lol. It came from Jay Williams and was all over twitter.
He's sick so he's not on the roster. Kind of weird he'd miss that much time being "sick" but okay.
That's the ridiculousness of fans criticizing non-moves. You literally have little idea of what moves have been discussed, let alone the details behind the moves.
huh? Their strategy was obvious. They blew through millions in cap space in a matter of hours. Multiple people who cover the league have questioned it.
DSJ
Trier
Frank
Mitch
KK
Ignas B
Bullock
Barrett
Ellington
Dotson
Randle
Gibson
Portis
Payton
Fitz loves Allen and the Knicks are still talking to other PG's so seems like it's a major long shot for a guy like Wilkes.
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you have no clue what opportunities have been looked at.
That's the ridiculousness of fans criticizing non-moves. You literally have little idea of what moves have been discussed, let alone the details behind the moves.
It's not just fans. Media people (some, not all) have joined in the "trade for bad contracts and picks" brigade. Until the Knicks possess every pick of the 2023 draft, these people are going to complain.
it's a sound team building strategy that many teams have employed. Mills/Perry seemingly did not consider it. In fact, it was reported prior to free agency that they would not consider it.
Funny how several of the same people doing cartwheels over the future picks coming from Dallas that requiring sacrificing KP are indifferent when it comes to getting picks that require simply taking another teams unwanted player for a year. I guess some folks just need to tell themselves everything is fine. We saw it here for years with the Jerry Reese defenders.
I do consider stretching Noah over 4 years to gain cap space one year earlier only to spend it on a bunch of middling free agents a bad move. Whether the intentions when clearing the space were different at the time its up to him to execute the plan. I've been a long proponent of don't make cap moves until they are absolutely necessary because god knows crazy things (blown out achillies with 2 games left in the season) happen that you could never account for. You could say keeping him around the team for the whole season could have been a distraction, but they were a 17 win team with no distractions; what difference would it make?
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In comment 14489722 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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you have no clue what opportunities have been looked at.
That's the ridiculousness of fans criticizing non-moves. You literally have little idea of what moves have been discussed, let alone the details behind the moves.
It's not just fans. Media people (some, not all) have joined in the "trade for bad contracts and picks" brigade. Until the Knicks possess every pick of the 2023 draft, these people are going to complain.
it's a sound team building strategy that many teams have employed. Mills/Perry seemingly did not consider it. In fact, it was reported prior to free agency that they would not consider it.
Funny how several of the same people doing cartwheels over the future picks coming from Dallas that requiring sacrificing KP are indifferent when it comes to getting picks that require simply taking another teams unwanted player for a year. I guess some folks just need to tell themselves everything is fine. We saw it here for years with the Jerry Reese defenders.
Did they really say they would not consider it?
If so, pure incompetence
That isn't even a strategy. It is an action (tactic).
That's probably part of the reason so many morons jump on the latest narrative.
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huh? Their strategy was obvious. They blew through millions in cap space in a matter of hours. Multiple people who cover the league have questioned it.
That isn't even a strategy. It is an action (tactic).
That's probably part of the reason so many morons jump on the latest narrative.
the length and structure of the contracts is 100% indicative of a strategy. You're just calling it "narrative" because you're either simply unaware of what they did or too dumb to follow it.
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In comment 14489722 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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you have no clue what opportunities have been looked at.
That's the ridiculousness of fans criticizing non-moves. You literally have little idea of what moves have been discussed, let alone the details behind the moves.
It's not just fans. Media people (some, not all) have joined in the "trade for bad contracts and picks" brigade. Until the Knicks possess every pick of the 2023 draft, these people are going to complain.
it's a sound team building strategy that many teams have employed. Mills/Perry seemingly did not consider it. In fact, it was reported prior to free agency that they would not consider it.
Funny how several of the same people doing cartwheels over the future picks coming from Dallas that requiring sacrificing KP are indifferent when it comes to getting picks that require simply taking another teams unwanted player for a year. I guess some folks just need to tell themselves everything is fine. We saw it here for years with the Jerry Reese defenders.
I'll say this until I'm blue in the face. It's entirely possible (maybe even likely) that come draft time next year there are teams who need to clear salary for one reason or another who will happily give us their first round pick in next year's draft with a player who has a year left in exchange for one of those guys whose options they can just decline. That has more value than a lottery protected 2023 pick.
I don't want to continue to rehash the KP trade but they got a 2021 *unprotected* first (notice none of these picks are unprotected) AND they didn't sacrifice KP, they sacrificed having the pay KP 5/$158M coming off of a torn ACL.
And claiming they blew millions in cap is disingenuous. They blew cap only if there was someone better to be had. There isn't when you're a bad team looking for 1-yr contracts and no tier 1-3 players. They get 1 yr, option if they flourish, gone if not. And why only Randle got more than 1 yr as the best of the bunch w/ upside but not an unfair cap hold nor for long
Without KD, that's what this year was always going to be
And the contracts just exchanged aren't even bad contracts- they are expirings. I'm sorry but Igoudola/ Harkless/ 2 future 1sts is better than Wayne Ellington/ Reggie Bullock and Taj Gibson.
This isn't some radical idea. Its been used by smart teams routinely. And yes I have no idea the conversations they had or if they were involved. But it was reported by Begley they had zero interest in doing this strategy. And Perry failed to do this in Sac as well.
Just look what the Hawks did this past draft to jump up to 4. These small moves all add up and the Knicks continually ignore them.
true. However we now have FIVE over those contracts to trade. We could have still done 2-3 of them - while still doing a deal like the Harkless trade.
the GS pick Memphis got is top 4 protected. Come on...
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I'll say this until I'm blue in the face. It's entirely possible (maybe even likely) that come draft time next year there are teams who need to clear salary for one reason or another who will happily give us their first round pick in next year's draft with a player who has a year left in exchange for one of those guys whose options they can just decline. That has more value than a lottery protected 2023 pick.
true. However we now have FIVE over those contracts to trade. We could have still done 2-3 of them - while still doing a deal like the Harkless trade.
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I don't want to continue to rehash the KP trade but they got a 2021 *unprotected* first (notice none of these picks are unprotected) AND they didn't sacrifice KP, they sacrificed having the pay KP 5/$158M coming off of a torn ACL.
the GS pick Memphis got is top 4 protected. Come on...
They legitimately wanted those players. Not all of them will be traded but they need to figure out who they'll want to keep going into 2021 FA as part of the foundation and pitch to FA's. Something they didn't have this year.
It's a 2024 pick. It's hard to be upset as a fan that my team missed out on a pick 5 years down the line...
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I'll say this until I'm blue in the face. It's entirely possible (maybe even likely) that come draft time next year there are teams who need to clear salary for one reason or another who will happily give us their first round pick in next year's draft with a player who has a year left in exchange for one of those guys whose options they can just decline. That has more value than a lottery protected 2023 pick.
true. However we now have FIVE over those contracts to trade. We could have still done 2-3 of them - while still doing a deal like the Harkless trade.
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I don't want to continue to rehash the KP trade but they got a 2021 *unprotected* first (notice none of these picks are unprotected) AND they didn't sacrifice KP, they sacrificed having the pay KP 5/$158M coming off of a torn ACL.
the GS pick Memphis got is top 4 protected. Come on...
I would have done the Payton, Portis, Bullock and Randle deals and passed on Ellington and Taj. Paying taj 10 mil to mentor is excessive and Ellington is a worse Bullock. They would have hit the cap floor and had some flexibility. They clearly valued the depth though so here we are.
Either way then getting absolutely killed for not taking on guys for late firsts doesn’t really resonate with me. They’ll win more games (by default) and ideally start building a real team while having flexibility.
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And the contracts just exchanged aren't even bad contracts- they are expirings. I'm sorry but Igoudola/ Harkless/ 2 future 1sts is better than Wayne Ellington/ Reggie Bullock and Taj Gibson.
This isn't some radical idea. Its been used by smart teams routinely. And yes I have no idea the conversations they had or if they were involved. But it was reported by Begley they had zero interest in doing this strategy. And Perry failed to do this in Sac as well.
Just look what the Hawks did this past draft to jump up to 4. These small moves all add up and the Knicks continually ignore them.
That's just not true. Begley said they wouldn't have interest unless the contract they took back was a player that they thought could help them.
Your Hawks examples actually supports my point. With the Nets eyeing a big FA splash just before the draft they were willing to give up the 17th pick in the draft that was a couple of weeks away to shed salary and a 2020 pick. That's a much better haul than a 1 that's years down the line. Now, who will teams call trying to do that next year? Probably the Knicks.
Priority #1 for the team should be to develop RJ Barrett. Barrett is going to need floor spacing to develop properly or he's going to look like he did at Duke with little growth. Can Iguodala or Harkless shoot? Can Ellington and Bullock? It's pretty simple why they made the choice that they did.
who out of these guys do you realistically see as part of anyone's foundation? And even if say Portis or Payton turns into something, you don't have full bird rights on them. You're just as likely to lose them as you are to keep them.
That's because you lack perspective. Every asset counts when building a roster - whether you use the pick yourself or use it as part of a trade at some point.
Mitch is a beast! The guy is definitely physically imposing. Here's to continued growth.
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They legitimately wanted those players. Not all of them will be traded but they need to figure out who they'll want to keep going into 2021 FA as part of the foundation and pitch to FA's. Something they didn't have this year.
who out of these guys do you realistically see as part of anyone's foundation? And even if say Portis or Payton turns into something, you don't have full bird rights on them. You're just as likely to lose them as you are to keep them.
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It's a 2024 pick. It's hard to be upset as a fan that my team missed out on a pick 5 years down the line...
That's because you lack perspective. Every asset counts when building a roster - whether you use the pick yourself or use it as part of a trade at some point.
with portis and payton their contracts are high so their early bird rights would probably be enough to resign them
I just don't see the need to be completely capped out with this team and these players 2 days into free agency. I'd rather have gotten the picks, maintained the open space for trades in season and still have the option at the end of the next season.
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They legitimately wanted those players. Not all of them will be traded but they need to figure out who they'll want to keep going into 2021 FA as part of the foundation and pitch to FA's. Something they didn't have this year.
who out of these guys do you realistically see as part of anyone's foundation? And even if say Portis or Payton turns into something, you don't have full bird rights on them. You're just as likely to lose them as you are to keep them.
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It's a 2024 pick. It's hard to be upset as a fan that my team missed out on a pick 5 years down the line...
That's because you lack perspective. Every asset counts when building a roster - whether you use the pick yourself or use it as part of a trade at some point.
Bullock is 28, there's definitely a world in which he's someone you want to keep moving forward with your young core and a max FA or two.
They don't have full bird rights but they do have early bird rights so you can pay them 175% more than their salary. Unless those guys become superstars, that's going to be plenty.
I lack perspective? The Knicks have $50M worth of expiring contracts essentially for the next two seasons (if they choose) and a few fans are upset that they didn't get a 2024 pick 5 years prior. Why don't we wait and see how this works out first...A late first round pick years down the line isn't as valuable as an expiring contract in a trade.
I just don't see the need to be completely capped out with this team and these players 2 days into free agency. I'd rather have gotten the picks, maintained the open space for trades in season and still have the option at the end of the next season.
They don't have the team option though so to deal them again you'd have to do it at the deadline. Less likely you'll get that kind of value then.
I'm not even sure he has to be more than slightly below average. If Mitch blossoms into what we believe that he can, he's going to be able to cover up a lot of defensive mistakes committed by other players.
The Knicks have pieces that can become all-stars if they develop
Randle
Barrett
Robinson
Knox
DSJ
Frank
Meanwhile they are surrounded by solid support pieces that can help win games.
Problem is everyone expected top FA and that might have been unrealistic.
Grab a couple more top 15 picks and hopefully in 2 or 3 years we won't have to Rely on big name free agents
"I think it's a team, we've got a squad," he said after his first Summer League practice. "I'm just a rookie coming in. I'm just trying to learn and do as much as I can to help the team."
With Kevin Durant in Brooklyn, the Knicks will continue to build their young core of Barrett, Kevin Knox, Allonzo Trier and Mitchell Robinson. They've added Julius Randle, Reggie Bullock, Wayne Ellington, Bobby Portis and Taj Gibson thus far in free agency.
As we learned over the last 72 hours, the best way for the Knicks to push forward is to build their young core into something formidable. So the development of Barrett, Knox and the other young players will be pivotal.
The group will play its first summer league game on Friday against Pelicans rookie and No. 1 overall pick Zion Williamson. Barrett said he laughed when he found out his first game would be against his former Duke teammate.
"It's funny that my first game ever in a uniform is against my guy so, just really excited to play," he said.
Barrett said his first Summer League practice was "high intensity" and "a lot of fun."
"I was just really trying to learn. That's really what I came in for," he said.
Barrett also recently appeared at the NBA's Awards show in Los Angeles and presented the Rookie of the Year award to Luka Doncic.
"The NBA awards was great. Hopefully, that's me getting the award next year. So it was great to experience that," he said.
But lets agree they missed on 1. This pick is later and way down the line. They already have several, so it's value is mostly as a small trade asset. But like the Atl move, these are FAR from available because you have assets, and every year it's different based on team situations & draft class among many factors. Much less does the move hinge on 1 late pick...
And without that move, we're concerned about missing on the potential of a late pick in 2-4 yrs? While lamenting 3-4 young players on reasonable contracts ($ has trade value & 1 yr team option are huge), with upside who are at least proven NBA pros? Even 1st round picks have trouble (see Frank, Knox), much less our missing late pick
Sure I'd love Iggy or Hark if only for D as 1 yr contracts over all but Randle. But compare Portis & Hark, we got youth & upside over some D & a 2nd round pick? We're overreacting - even if they refused a trade sitting on the table netting them a late pick, it's not some egregious mistake. Also who would be a viable trade option from NYK?
Any chance these expiring deals would have slowed the development of the younger players by taking minutes or complaining if they didn't get minutes?
Strongly disagree with this one. Read any extended interviews with Iggy. The guy gets "it" and would/has been an amazing mentor.
"hat are the biggest changes in the N.B.A. since you entered the league?
We players hold ourselves at a different level now than we did before. Before, it wasn’t as much about how active we were, whether it be socially or from a business perspective, a mental space, all those things. We would like each generation to be able to learn from the previous. . . . I think we’re all trying to be in a better space. And you see that physically, with the way we’re training, with the technology we’re using on and off the court, whether it be with sleep or with yoga or changing our diets. And then you see that with our business, and the way we’ve disrupted the old model of endorsements, and how we’re taking equity in companies, and how we’re running our businesses and how we’re running our brands, and how we’re taking more ownership of our brands. All those things have really changed throughout the last decade.
Was there some aspect of tutelage or mentorship that you didn’t get that is different now than when you entered the league?
I don’t know if there was anything that was missing, but I think we’re just getting access to more, especially with technology, and everything is in front of you. And teams or organizations are using analytics to decide which players will fit better with a team and what players they can get for cheaper and still be as effective. We were able to do the same thing: take those analytics and see the impact that we have on a game and the impact that we have on businesses. So we’ve just smartened up.
How have conversations among players changed? Are plane rides different?
The plane is a sacred place for players to be able to relax and get away from the noise. You are seeing more conversation on the plane rides. You’re seeing a lot of books on plane rides. You’re seeing guys read newspapers. Klay Thompson’s an endorser of the local newspaper and it’s a thing for him to have the newspaper, in physical form, in his locker every game or in his locker every shootaround. It’s not just on basketball or locker-room chatter.
How much disagreement is there during political conversations?
Well, it’s kind of that fine line between what’s sacred and what you can share. But we’re just having a candid conversation, whereas in the past we weren’t as aware of what’s going on, or we just didn’t care. But we’re seeing the effect it has on our people and the people that we resonate with through the majority of our lives. Our upbringing is definitely—we were right in the middle of that. But we’re having those conversations and we’re talking about ramifications of decisions that are made by others and how that’s going to affect us and affect others. So that’s what I’m most proud of—that we’re having them."
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Even if he was just kidding around, he embarrassed them publicly just weeks before FA and basically laughed at them. The Knicks desperately need to change the perception surrounding the team and organization (which is why I'm sure they went out of their way for guys like Gibson and Ellington). It also wouldn't be good to bring that into a locker room with young, impressionable kids.
Any chance these expiring deals would have slowed the development of the younger players by taking minutes or complaining if they didn't get minutes?
I think they would've waived Iguodala. Who knows re: Harkless but at least the guys they signed they know want to be here. I think what is more likely to slow development is a lack of floor spacing, poor point guard play, and not having a culture around defense. It's clear to me this is what they set out to mitigate with their money.