How are we all feeling? Personally, I like what they’re doing. The highlights:
-Young, hungry players on short term contracts competing. Hopefully this helps everyone get better.
-All future draft picks in place in addition to picks from the KP trade.
-Maintaining cap flexibility going forward.
If there is one thing I’ve realized, tanking is way overblown. The Knicks don’t be a FA destination until they win. Going out there and competing is the next thing for them right now. Need to build a culture.
I don't think that would factor for the names we've heard, if only because for 1 yr you'd have to be a real shithead to be that big a red flag you'd think
Two offseasons ago you mean, I think? He was rumored in Melo talks (pre-Perry) but iirc that was just preferable to taking on Ryan Anderson. Not that it matters but Harkless was 24 then and seemed to be on the upswing. He's had trouble staying healthy since and he hasn't improved at all. Maybe they were interested in him last year too but i don't recall seeing that.
Meh,
I think outside of a very, very small segment of Knicks fans.. I don't think most even heard his quote and he was really just talking about GS's players sticking with GS. Absolute worst case he would have explained that and it would have been the end of it. I mean Dinwiddie has made a second career of clowning the Knicks on twitter but I'm sure they would add him given the chance.
Everything I've seen and read is that Iggy is a good dude and well respected. People on BBI are pretty die hard, would you really fault any player in making a casual joke at the Knicks expense if their reputation were generally positive? I know I wouldn't.
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it was strongly rumored they were interested in Harkless last off-season. Who knows if it were true but that was the rumor.
Two offseasons ago you mean, I think? He was rumored in Melo talks (pre-Perry) but iirc that was just preferable to taking on Ryan Anderson. Not that it matters but Harkless was 24 then and seemed to be on the upswing. He's had trouble staying healthy since and he hasn't improved at all. Maybe they were interested in him last year too but i don't recall seeing that.
You're right. 2017, but he also has Perry ties and that hasn't changed
“(Scott Perry and I) had a really good relationship. We still have a good relationship. We actually spoke not too long ago. We talk all the time,” Harkless said. “He’s a real down-to-Earth guy, a real dude. He doesn’t really sugar coat stuff. So I think that’s why players take a liking to him.”
I don't think that would factor for the names we've heard, if only because for 1 yr you'd have to be a real shithead to be that big a red flag you'd think
More than locker room issues would they steal minutes from the kids you are trying to develop?
And the contracts just exchanged aren't even bad contracts- they are expirings. I'm sorry but Igoudola/ Harkless/ 2 future 1sts is better than Wayne Ellington/ Reggie Bullock and Taj Gibson.
This isn't some radical idea. Its been used by smart teams routinely. And yes I have no idea the conversations they had or if they were involved. But it was reported by Begley they had zero interest in doing this strategy. And Perry failed to do this in Sac as well.
Just look what the Hawks did this past draft to jump up to 4. These small moves all add up and the Knicks continually ignore them.
Well at least someone isn't drinking the kool-aid. Don't understand why so many are putting their faith in the FO, sure Perry is new, but he hasn't done anything big or bad yet, but Millis has been part of the dumpster fire. Aside from Randle and Gibson's locker room presence, the rest of the guys don't move the needle at all, just jags. All the eggs are in their young core, while Barrett and Mitch are talented, nobody knows how they're gonna turn out. The Knicks will be a bottom dweller for the next few years and maybe longer.
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same w/ Hark, tho I'm not as sure
I don't think that would factor for the names we've heard, if only because for 1 yr you'd have to be a real shithead to be that big a red flag you'd think
More than locker room issues would they steal minutes from the kids you are trying to develop?
?
They just signed
Gibson (34)
Bullock (28)
Ellington (32)
How would these 2 differ?
I'd also put that more on the coach as it's on him to allocate minutes appropriately, which of course can be an issue, but in this situation I don't think it'd factor. Esp for Iggy, a champion, hard worker, do what's asked, team type...I don't think he'd make a peep. He'd be a fantastic mentor
Well at least someone isn't drinking the kool-aid. Don't understand why so many are putting their faith in the FO, sure Perry is new, but he hasn't done anything big or bad yet, but Millis has been part of the dumpster fire. Aside from Randle and Gibson's locker room presence, the rest of the guys don't move the needle at all, just jags. All the eggs are in their young core, while Barrett and Mitch are talented, nobody knows how they're gonna turn out. The Knicks will be a bottom dweller for the next few years and maybe longer.
The key to any successful rebuild is player development. Without that, there's no rebuilding path short of winning the lottery with a surefire superstar waiting for you that will work. Even then, it may not work (see New Orleans with AD). You could get lucky with a marquee free agent or two but no way in hell am I going down that path again and I'm sure you all agree.
I'd also put that more on the coach as it's on him to allocate minutes appropriately, which of course can be an issue, but in this situation I don't think it'd factor. Esp for Iggy, a champion, hard worker, do what's asked, team type...I don't think he'd make a peep. He'd be a fantastic mentor
Some are just trying to justify the FO's actions, idk why though. Having cap space is an asset, and they blew it in a matter of hours.
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Well at least someone isn't drinking the kool-aid. Don't understand why so many are putting their faith in the FO, sure Perry is new, but he hasn't done anything big or bad yet, but Millis has been part of the dumpster fire. Aside from Randle and Gibson's locker room presence, the rest of the guys don't move the needle at all, just jags. All the eggs are in their young core, while Barrett and Mitch are talented, nobody knows how they're gonna turn out. The Knicks will be a bottom dweller for the next few years and maybe longer.
The key to any successful rebuild is player development. Without that, there's no rebuilding path short of winning the lottery with a surefire superstar waiting for you that will work. Even then, it may not work (see New Orleans with AD). You could get lucky with a marquee free agent or two but no way in hell am I going down that path again and I'm sure you all agree.
I really wish the Knicks won the lottery. I feel like it was fixed against them, small markets like the Pelicans and Cavaliers have won the lottery multiple times with worse odds. And the Lakers got 4 top 5 picks against the odds in the past five years. Somethings up
Yeah, an extra draft pick would've been nice, but it's not a huge deal - critics are just piling on as much as possible at this point. Fuck them. The Knicks have their first rounders, a couple of future firsts from Dallas, and the next two second rounders from Charlotte, which should be in the 31-35 range. We've already had three top 10 picks in a row and found Mitch, Trier and Dotson after the first round - we have more than enough draft capital to build a good young nucleus.
I really wish the Knicks won the lottery. I feel like it was fixed against them, small markets like the Pelicans and Cavaliers have won the lottery multiple times with worse odds. And the Lakers got 4 top 5 picks against the odds in the past five years. Somethings up
David Griffin was won it 3 times!!! It's unbelievable. He's lauded for the work he's done but he came to a team with Anthony Davis and won the Zion lottery. Such garbage.
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I really wish the Knicks won the lottery. I feel like it was fixed against them, small markets like the Pelicans and Cavaliers have won the lottery multiple times with worse odds. And the Lakers got 4 top 5 picks against the odds in the past five years. Somethings up
David Griffin was won it 3 times!!! It's unbelievable. He's lauded for the work he's done but he came to a team with Anthony Davis and won the Zion lottery. Such garbage.
It feels like the NBA rewards small market teams.fir losing their stars, Lebron leaves, Cleveland wins 3 times, AD leaves boom. No, those organizations have shown they cant build around stars and they leave
2) Mitchell giving Barrett a really, really hard time and enjoying the heck out of it.
Link - ( New Window )
I don’t mind the front court signings, because we have no bodies, but the three guards make no sense. DSJ, Dotson, Trier, Frank, Barrett, Payton, Bollucks, Ellington....you have 8 players for 2-3 spots. Who do you think Fizdale are going to play when he’s on the hot seat?
No free agents are coming here for 30-win, Payton/Randle-led team. Still have to build through the draft and young players.
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in lieu of one of the 5 signings, I'm not sure it's a big problem. Not like we'd be hanging 3-4-5 guys with big egos expecting 30+ minutes
I'd also put that more on the coach as it's on him to allocate minutes appropriately, which of course can be an issue, but in this situation I don't think it'd factor. Esp for Iggy, a champion, hard worker, do what's asked, team type...I don't think he'd make a peep. He'd be a fantastic mentor
Some are just trying to justify the FO's actions, idk why though. Having cap space is an asset, and they blew it in a matter of hours.
'Blew' is totally disingenuous. They had to sign a full roster and given all but one is a 1 yr deal the individual $ is almost irrelevant
Cap is an asset but mainly early off-season. This FO has set up so NYK for max cap 3 yrs in a row. As an asset that's far from nothing. And it's blown only if there were better players available. Were there, for a bad team looking for 1 yr contracts, cutting out any multi-year tier 1-3 options?
I don't see this kool-aid and justification. Just a few disagreeing with the 'FO has done nothing' idea, based mostly on one missed future pick while ignoring 3 yrs of max cap (even if it's only step 1 or 2). I'm also not sure who the viable NYK trade asset is for that move
I don’t mind the front court signings, because we have no bodies, but the three guards make no sense. DSJ, Dotson, Trier, Frank, Barrett, Payton, Bollucks, Ellington....you have 8 players for 2-3 spots. Who do you think Fizdale are going to play when he’s on the hot seat?
No free agents are coming here for 30-win, Payton/Randle-led team. Still have to build through the draft and young players.
last year just proved ping pong balls do not matter..
also randle is 23 he is part of the futuee
But save major injury or dramatic fall off, that contract will be movable in a year just the same
And if he doesn't play well, 2 years is far from some big problem nor is he an unreasonable cap hold at last years production fwiw (even if a bit higher)
Actually, Payton makes sense. We were short at PG. The other two, I think reflect that the FO was unsure about our 3-point shooting and wanted a couple more guys who can do that. As for who Fizdale is going to play when he's on the hot seat - I don't know, what do you think?
2) Mitchell giving Barrett a really, really hard time and enjoying the heck out of it. Link - ( New Window )
Yeesh. Knox has work to do in the gym, quick snippet but looks exactly the same physically.
I don’t mind the front court signings, because we have no bodies, but the three guards make no sense. DSJ, Dotson, Trier, Frank, Barrett, Payton, Bollucks, Ellington....you have 8 players for 2-3 spots. Who do you think Fizdale are going to play when he’s on the hot seat?
No free agents are coming here for 30-win, Payton/Randle-led team. Still have to build through the draft and young players.
Despite numerous attempts to explain this, people still don't get that the Knicks are trying to create competition with these young kids and inject some veterans into the roster. This would be different from last year's team which basically had no real vet leadership and just a bunch of kids running around stupid.
As for the 8 players you mention, only 2 of them are PGs.
Dotson and Frank can't be guaranteed any kind of minutes or role. They must earn it.
Barrett might be the starting SG, but he'll also be the backup SF if Knox starts. Trier will also play both of those spots. That leaves 2 vets, neither of whom should expect to play as many minutes as they did last season.
But they do have a talented young core in RJ, Robinson, Knox, Trier and DSJ. Will they all become stars? No. Should they all be quality NBA players, yes.
They also have a tremendous amount of cap flexibility. As we near the trade deadline, they will have a half dozen expirings that can be used for teams who need to dump salary for picks.
Of course, they also have six first round picks over the next four seasons and Charlotte’s second round pick in 2020 and 2021. Those could easily be picks in the high 30’s. With the new lottery system, the bottom 10 teams will be in a position to move to top 3.
And finally, it was smart to sign quality vets as they have to start to show progress and win games and the young players need solid examples to learn from.
I might be a half-full kind of guy, but I think the Knicks are well situated for a very successful build process.
-1 is a young, serviceable pass-first PG, with some upside (and hope for D given DPOY in college). Also 1 yr
PG: EP, DSJ, KA, FN
SG: WE, Dot, Zo
SF: KK, RJ, RB, Iggy
Obviously depends on the lineup and there's a lot of overlap tho I listed each once. Nor is it a depth chart, just by position. And as said above, it's competition for the youngins and some NBA experience. So now it's more about lineups and who plays well with who, what style, etc
I'm hoping the best for KD, but cleared to play in 1 yr doesn't mean he hits his new 100%, likely for another yr. Esp an Achilles
Obviously some athletes might be other-worldly and heal that much quicker. But the biggest jumps were ACL or similar (AP, Welker etc)
IMO I still probably risk max on KD but that would be part of my thinking
These are basically his post ASB numbers (he was dealing with injuries in the first half of the year). 11 ppg, 6.5 rpg and 9 apg. He needs to improve his shooting and become a better defender but he's become a really good passer.
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Payton has a breakout year. 12-8-6 for him. I’m captaining the bandwagon
These are basically his post ASB numbers (he was dealing with injuries in the first half of the year). 11 ppg, 6.5 rpg and 9 apg. He needs to improve his shooting and become a better defender but he's become a really good passer.
Yup. He had 5 straight triple doubles at one point.
I'm curios to see him on D, can only judge him from here
That's when stars will want to sign with them.
I don’t mind the front court signings, because we have no bodies, but the three guards make no sense. DSJ, Dotson, Trier, Frank, Barrett, Payton, Bollucks, Ellington....you have 8 players for 2-3 spots. Who do you think Fizdale are going to play when he’s on the hot seat?
No free agents are coming here for 30-win, Payton/Randle-led team. Still have to build through the draft and young players.
But part of developing these players means playing with competent, high IQ players. Just shoving a guy out on the court without the right pieces around him can stunt their growth or develop bad habits in the process. Just like in football, earn your playing time. Just don't get it because you are young or were a high pick. One thing Fiz loves to do is put someone's ass on the bench if they are doing things the right way. I agree with that. So many coaches have gotten away from that so in an age where players run the team I appreciate that. Now we have legitimate players that'll push the young guys. On top of that, most players last year really responded on a positive way when playing time got taken away. Take a step back to take 2 forward.
Thank you. Someone here that is being realistic. The knicks are a joke and are now irrelevant in NY. Players don't want to play there and they don't have to and still get to play in the largest media market. Until ownership changes that will not change.
And all this self stroking about the picks and young players we have is just that. These guys aren't gonna be superstars. And the picks they have they will have to HOPE they nail a superstar or 2 in one of them because that is the only way they are getting them...that or trade.
Fact is they are destined to be constantly rebuilding through the draft because no one wants to play here. Constant mediocre teams, maybe making the playoffs then getting bounced. You need stars to win in this league and the Knicks are not in any position to get them until ownership changes.
Thats the truth of the situation. All this talk about developing these young guys is just garbage.
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Stars don't want to play with the Knicks. So until he sells the team it will be constant rebuilding with hoping to get the 8th seed and then go out in the 1st round. That's the BEST case scenario currently. You win with stars in this league and the Knicks have NONE.
Thank you. Someone here that is being realistic. The knicks are a joke and are now irrelevant in NY. Players don't want to play there and they don't have to and still get to play in the largest media market. Until ownership changes that will not change.
And all this self stroking about the picks and young players we have is just that. These guys aren't gonna be superstars. And the picks they have they will have to HOPE they nail a superstar or 2 in one of them because that is the only way they are getting them...that or trade.
Fact is they are destined to be constantly rebuilding through the draft because no one wants to play here. Constant mediocre teams, maybe making the playoffs then getting bounced. You need stars to win in this league and the Knicks are not in any position to get them until ownership changes.
Thats the truth of the situation. All this talk about developing these young guys is just garbage.
what a load of bullshit..
hiw did the sixers get their stars?
how about the warriors?
how about the bucks?
hiw about the spurs?
how about the nuggets?
getting stars through free agency is not the only way to get stars
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Stars don't want to play with the Knicks. So until he sells the team it will be constant rebuilding with hoping to get the 8th seed and then go out in the 1st round. That's the BEST case scenario currently. You win with stars in this league and the Knicks have NONE.
Thank you. Someone here that is being realistic. The knicks are a joke and are now irrelevant in NY. Players don't want to play there and they don't have to and still get to play in the largest media market. Until ownership changes that will not change.
And all this self stroking about the picks and young players we have is just that. These guys aren't gonna be superstars. And the picks they have they will have to HOPE they nail a superstar or 2 in one of them because that is the only way they are getting them...that or trade.
Fact is they are destined to be constantly rebuilding through the draft because no one wants to play here. Constant mediocre teams, maybe making the playoffs then getting bounced. You need stars to win in this league and the Knicks are not in any position to get them until ownership changes.
Thats the truth of the situation. All this talk about developing these young guys is just garbage.
When you attempt to quote Stan in LA for truth, it's time to take a long walk off a short pier.
And if the sky has already fallen why be a fan if they have no shot whatsoever and you have no interest in garbage / young players - because Dolan?
This isn't even being pessimistic, it's pointless. I mean you do you...
Draft some nice players
Trade them and some future picks for a former All-Star
Introduce Stoudemire or Marbury or Anthony or whoever as the next savior.
Stink.
Send the savior packing.
Stink some more.
Draft some nice players...
Like it or not, Durant and Kyrie were absolutely correct to head for a team where they were the completion of a base of players, not the beginning.
If Barrett, Mitchell, Knox, Randle and one or two of the other guys can grow into mature, complete players, the Knicks will be able to attract talent to go with that. The way Perry et al designed this, with 5 team option second years and a bunch of future #1 picks, gives them a real opportunity if the youngsters show real talent. The Garden IS a great place to play, if you have a full, talented team.
Agree with this.