With Colin Kaepernick again pursuing the sins of the public, can we get a list of offensive items and references I need to avoid?
When Betsy Fucking Ross is knitting symbols of oppression, I'm assuming there has to be some history we can keep referencing without pissing off those who claim to be for "free speech".
I'd play God Bless America in tribute, but that makes me a Nazi-loving stooge. I might even offer up some nickels and dollar bills to give to the cause, but those pieces of money are tarnished by slave owning scum.
Can I get some ground rules for how not to piss off the serially ruffled??
Wearing sock with dead pigs dressed as police officers. Thats ok in society.
That's the society we live in today folks.
USA!! USA!!
USA!! USA!!
And whos doing that?
I can only think that post had to be in jest.
Do I have to pick? Will that decide which path the contrarian bullshit takes?
I can only think that post had to be in jest.
Its connection with white supremacist groups?
You really want your confederate flag? And this is a thread about patriotism? You realize the confederacy was literally opposed to the US and represents sedition on a grand scale?
When a marginal sports figure gets a major company to discontinue a product, um, yeah, that is shaping society.
Why are people offended by things that happened over 200 years ago and have long since been corrected? You do realize that President Obama had those flags displayed at his second inauguration, right?
You really want your confederate flag? And this is a thread about patriotism? You realize the confederacy was literally opposed to the US and represents sedition on a grand scale?
White supremacists are waving Colonial Flags now? Shoving Betsy Ross down our throats??
no one managed to be offended.
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So this is about the merits of the symbol being offensive or Kaepernick being a hypocrite?
Do I have to pick? Will that decide which path the contrarian bullshit takes?
You're a funny a little dude sometimes. I assume you start these threads to banter about a topic, but at the hint of opinion that challenges *you* it's contrarian (which by the way I'm not entirely sure is the pejorative you want it to be).
If you think Kaepernick's a hypocrite because he's used offensive symbols, that's a completely intellectually sound observation in my view.
If you think the symbol doesn't emote or represent an offensive message, that's fair, but debatable.
But more than anything I just suspect you're just moaning and not really interested in actually discussing anything as almost always is and has been your M.O. for the last 20 years.
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Its connection with white supremacist groups?
You really want your confederate flag? And this is a thread about patriotism? You realize the confederacy was literally opposed to the US and represents sedition on a grand scale?
White supremacists are waving Colonial Flags now? Shoving Betsy Ross down our throats??
Obviously, I'm not the only one with a reading problem. I wasn't talking about the colonial flag.
But, if someone were offended by the colonial flag and called a symbol of white supremacy, I would understand, because black people at the time of the colonies were largely ENSLAVED. So, in that context, it does represent slavery. That was the economic system at the time. It's silly to pretend that black people are just sensitive.
You really are ignoring history.
Oh yeah, the fucking history of swastika changed as well as our understanding of the symbol! You're living in the past, Fatman. You're dated.
Sometimes I also like to just point out absurdities.
And people who take a different side than me aren't contrarians. The ones who consistently take a different side than majority opinion are. It's the actual definition of contrairanism.
Oh yeah, the fucking history of swastika changed as well as our understanding of the symbol! You're living in the past, Fatman. You're dated.
So Adam. What's your solution? It's your world now. What things that offend you in this country that now offers byou every vsingle opportunity to succeed would you like erased permanently? Go for it. Don't be shy.
Oh yeah, the fucking history of swastika changed as well as our understanding of the symbol! You're living in the past, Fatman. You're dated.
C'mon man. Swastikas became THE symbol for a party that promoted hate. The colonial flag waved while a portion of the population had slaves. One was an active symbol of hate and oppression, the other isn't even remotely connected until 230 years later.
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Why do Jews resent swastikas??! They're really awesome Buddhist symbols! Jews are just sensitive! Jews these days...
Oh yeah, the fucking history of swastika changed as well as our understanding of the symbol! You're living in the past, Fatman. You're dated.
So Adam. What's your solution? It's your world now. What things that offend you in this country that now offers byou every vsingle opportunity to succeed would you like erased permanently? Go for it. Don't be shy.
X-Large Yoga Pants. And the Philadelphia Eagles.
Nobody likes a pair of Jorts or bike shorts...
Nobody likes a pair of Jorts or bike shorts...
No problem with the Yoga pant - just the size. To hell with self-love. Certain garments should be size restricted. I should not have to see curdled cottage cheese dripping through the over-stretched fabric.
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thing can go both ways.
Nobody likes a pair of Jorts or bike shorts...
No problem with the Yoga pant - just the size. To hell with self-love. Certain garments should be size restricted. I should not have to see curdled cottage cheese dripping through the over-stretched fabric.
You fat-ist bastard. Overweight people are offended by your comments.
I'll allow the Eagles thing.
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Why do Jews resent swastikas??! They're really awesome Buddhist symbols! Jews are just sensitive! Jews these days...
Oh yeah, the fucking history of swastika changed as well as our understanding of the symbol! You're living in the past, Fatman. You're dated.
C'mon man. Swastikas became THE symbol for a party that promoted hate. The colonial flag waved while a portion of the population had slaves. One was an active symbol of hate and oppression, the other isn't even remotely connected until 230 years later.
A portion of the WHITE population had slaves (generally). It's obtuse to pretend this country wasn't founded with a racism problem borne out of the racial caste system that was slavery.
And your propensity to consider AMERICA from the perspective only of the white colonists is exactly what CK is likely addressing. "Well, the average white person didn't own slaves!" Does nothing to deny the fact that the few whites who did own slaves, owned BLACK slaves.
It's not THAT complicated. You just have to get over your chauvinism.
Are the founding fathers sacred? You sound insane.
and every single version of the American flag would be deemed offensive.
I think it's ok (and appropriate) to be sensitive to this countries past, acknowledge it, learn from it, but also not find offense in 200 year old ghosts or try and whitewash history under the guise of "offense"
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Banning dollar bills, nickels and references to most of our Founding Fathers shall be deemed verboten....
Are the founding fathers sacred? You sound insane.
Is the family of Kamala Harris sacred? Seems so since she's apparently given a pass despite her family owning slaves.
Also, the vast, vast majority of whites in this country came long after slavery was abolished. Including mine. Am I still guilty?
Sometimes I also like to just point out absurdities.
And people who take a different side than me aren't contrarians. The ones who consistently take a different side than majority opinion are. It's the actual definition of contrairanism.
That's a funny observation to make, because generally I find myself to be quite centrist in my opinions, but frequently find your takes to be pretty flimsy and circular. Maybe I'm just FMiC contrarian?
Back to what I'm assuming the point of you posting this; Kaepernick doesn't have the credibility to be an authority on offensive symbols when he's willing to do it himself, that seems pretty acceptable.
But what really is different with the colonial flag, having been the national symbol of an active slave owning state, and the Confederate or apartheid flags as symbols of unsavory social practices?
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In comment 14491186 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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Banning dollar bills, nickels and references to most of our Founding Fathers shall be deemed verboten....
Are the founding fathers sacred? You sound insane.
Is the family of Kamala Harris sacred? Seems so since she's apparently given a pass despite her family owning slaves.
Also, the vast, vast majority of whites in this country came long after slavery was abolished. Including mine. Am I still guilty?
Are you guilty of what?
Max Brooks said it really well last week on Real Time, which I happened to just catch after giving up on all politics/news shows. I'm paraphrasing, but in reference to political extremism, he said: "we need to take all the bleeding heart liberals and batshit crazy conservatives, give them all sporks, and let them poke each other's eyes out while the rest of us rebuild the infrastructure, fix the schools, and get the lead out of the goddamn water". I swear to Christ I nearly gave him a standing ovation.
The Confederate flag was considered racist when it flew. It became considered that way because of how it have been used by white supremacists.
Is there some overt use of the Colonial flag I've missed?
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In comment 14491190 adamg said:
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In comment 14491186 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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Banning dollar bills, nickels and references to most of our Founding Fathers shall be deemed verboten....
Are the founding fathers sacred? You sound insane.
Is the family of Kamala Harris sacred? Seems so since she's apparently given a pass despite her family owning slaves.
Also, the vast, vast majority of whites in this country came long after slavery was abolished. Including mine. Am I still guilty?
Are you guilty of what?
Being proud of my family's adopted country that has provided me and my family the equal opportunity to succeed even if I didn't quite achieve an equal outcome as others?
I thought Nike was absolutely moronic for even listening to Kap on this but the more Im reading... the more people are siding with him. Absolutely mind boggling.
Are you guilty of what?
Being proud of my family's adopted country that has provided me and my family the equal opportunity to succeed even if I didn't quite achieve an equal outcome as others?
Sounds like a rhetorical question... lol
I thought Nike was absolutely moronic for even listening to Kap on this but the more Im reading... the more people are siding with him. Absolutely mind boggling.
There's social currency to being on the "right side" of these arguments. The social justice thing has become scary. By declaring a moral position people are signaling to others just how good and virtuous they are. And many times the cost of doing that is destroying the life of someone who truly isn't a bad person. People get doxed m they lose their jobs, their names and reputations are damaged. It's fucking scary.
The flag of a secessionist faction of states, at best largely protecting slavery and at worst primarily protecting slavery, wasn't considered racist? I think there was a pretty decent group of contemporary Americans who would disagree with that.
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In comment 14491149 adamg said:
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Why do Jews resent swastikas??! They're really awesome Buddhist symbols! Jews are just sensitive! Jews these days...
Oh yeah, the fucking history of swastika changed as well as our understanding of the symbol! You're living in the past, Fatman. You're dated.
C'mon man. Swastikas became THE symbol for a party that promoted hate. The colonial flag waved while a portion of the population had slaves. One was an active symbol of hate and oppression, the other isn't even remotely connected until 230 years later.
A portion of the WHITE population had slaves (generally). It's obtuse to pretend this country wasn't founded with a racism problem borne out of the racial caste system that was slavery.
And your propensity to consider AMERICA from the perspective only of the white colonists is exactly what CK is likely addressing. "Well, the average white person didn't own slaves!" Does nothing to deny the fact that the few whites who did own slaves, owned BLACK slaves.
It's not THAT complicated. You just have to get over your chauvinism.
Ah, shit has changed. Do you really want to go back through history and complain about every wrong humans have done throughout history to each other?
Problem is with "your" logic is that every US flag up until 1863 should be protested because slavery was legal until then.
I think the deal with the Betsy Ross flag is that some basically white high school once waved it at a Black high school during a basketball game and now it is viewed as a symbol of racism..
We will never get past racism until people vent at the people who are the racists and not grouping all others with them. It is like Antifa beating up people and then claiming those people are hateful, while they commit felony assault and battery and nobody with legal authority goes after them.
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In comment 14491149 adamg said:
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Why do Jews resent swastikas??! They're really awesome Buddhist symbols! Jews are just sensitive! Jews these days...
Oh yeah, the fucking history of swastika changed as well as our understanding of the symbol! You're living in the past, Fatman. You're dated.
C'mon man. Swastikas became THE symbol for a party that promoted hate. The colonial flag waved while a portion of the population had slaves. One was an active symbol of hate and oppression, the other isn't even remotely connected until 230 years later.
A portion of the WHITE population had slaves (generally). It's obtuse to pretend this country wasn't founded with a racism problem borne out of the racial caste system that was slavery.
And your propensity to consider AMERICA from the perspective only of the white colonists is exactly what CK is likely addressing. "Well, the average white person didn't own slaves!" Does nothing to deny the fact that the few whites who did own slaves, owned BLACK slaves.
It's not THAT complicated. You just have to get over your chauvinism.
American indians and free black farmers owned thousands of slaves also. BLACK slaves. Over 15,000.
I only wrote black in capitals because you did.
The founding father's believed slavery would end in a relatively short time period, obviously they were wrong.
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Are you guilty of what?
Being proud of my family's adopted country that has provided me and my family the equal opportunity to succeed even if I didn't quite achieve an equal outcome as others?
Sounds like a rhetorical question... lol
It's not. There are 1.5M people enslaved in the Congo and Nigeria. But here we're outraged by a flag that just happened to fly in the times of US slavery 200 years ago in this country. Am i guilty or should I laugh at the continued lunacy of the aggrieved class that continues to blame every single person who doesn't look like them for something that happened before most of those people's families had even immigrated here?
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In comment 14491219 rnargi said:
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Are you guilty of what?
Being proud of my family's adopted country that has provided me and my family the equal opportunity to succeed even if I didn't quite achieve an equal outcome as others?
Sounds like a rhetorical question... lol
It's not. There are 1.5M people enslaved in the Congo and Nigeria. But here we're outraged by a flag that just happened to fly in the times of US slavery 200 years ago in this country. Am i guilty or should I laugh at the continued lunacy of the aggrieved class that continues to blame every single person who doesn't look like them for something that happened before most of those people's families had even immigrated here?
Embrace your white guilt and let it compel you to pay for overpriced produce at the local farmers market that caters to the "knit cap in July crowd".
Ah, shit has changed. Do you really want to go back through history and complain about every wrong humans have done throughout history to each other?
That's not what's happening. He's not protesting the flag in 1776, he's protesting it in 2019. It means something different to people today than it does then.
Where am I advocating protesting anything?
That story by itself shows that, to some, the flag is a symbol of white supremacy. You just proved Fatman wrong.
The alt-right drove a car into a crowd of people and killed someone. Antifa poured a milkshake on an admitted Nazi.
You really want to side with the alt-right?
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In comment 14491219 rnargi said:
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Are you guilty of what?
Being proud of my family's adopted country that has provided me and my family the equal opportunity to succeed even if I didn't quite achieve an equal outcome as others?
Sounds like a rhetorical question... lol
It's not. There are 1.5M people enslaved in the Congo and Nigeria. But here we're outraged by a flag that just happened to fly in the times of US slavery 200 years ago in this country. Am i guilty or should I laugh at the continued lunacy of the aggrieved class that continues to blame every single person who doesn't look like them for something that happened before most of those people's families had even immigrated here?
You think you're saying something that you're not saying. Are you guilty of what???
Are you guilty of owning slaves? Obviously not. So what are you asking?
American indians and free black farmers owned thousands of slaves also. BLACK slaves. Over 15,000.
I only wrote black in capitals because you did.
The founding father's believed slavery would end in a relatively short time period, obviously they were wrong.
I put (generally) in quotations because I knew some supercilious nerd was going to say, "BLACKS OWNED SLAVES TOO". As if that's an important point...
Well fuck them. Like U2 taking back Helter Skelter from Manson, take it back and use it for good.
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Ah, shit has changed. Do you really want to go back through history and complain about every wrong humans have done throughout history to each other?
That's not what's happening. He's not protesting the flag in 1776, he's protesting it in 2019. It means something different to people today than it does then.
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Problem is with "your" logic is that every US flag up until 1863 should be protested because slavery was legal until then.
Where am I advocating protesting anything?
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I think the deal with the Betsy Ross flag is that some basically white high school once waved it at a Black high school during a basketball game and now it is viewed as a symbol of racism..
That story by itself shows that, to some, the flag is a symbol of white supremacy. You just proved Fatman wrong.
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We will never get past racism until people vent at the people who are the racists and not grouping all others with them. It is like Antifa beating up people and then claiming those people are hateful, while they commit felony assault and battery and nobody with legal authority goes after them.
The alt-right drove a car into a crowd of people and killed someone. Antifa poured a milkshake on an admitted Nazi.
You really want to side with the alt-right?
Why does calling out Antifa mean you support the alt-right? This isnt a zero-sum game. Both are worthless, backwards groups of jackasses. And your characterization of Antifa minimizes their bullshit.
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American indians and free black farmers owned thousands of slaves also. BLACK slaves. Over 15,000.
I only wrote black in capitals because you did.
The founding father's believed slavery would end in a relatively short time period, obviously they were wrong.
I put (generally) in quotations because I knew some supercilious nerd was going to say, "BLACKS OWNED SLAVES TOO". As if that's an important point...
why isn't it an important point?
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Ah, shit has changed. Do you really want to go back through history and complain about every wrong humans have done throughout history to each other?
That's not what's happening. He's not protesting the flag in 1776, he's protesting it in 2019. It means something different to people today than it does then.
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Problem is with "your" logic is that every US flag up until 1863 should be protested because slavery was legal until then.
Where am I advocating protesting anything?
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I think the deal with the Betsy Ross flag is that some basically white high school once waved it at a Black high school during a basketball game and now it is viewed as a symbol of racism..
That story by itself shows that, to some, the flag is a symbol of white supremacy. You just proved Fatman wrong.
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We will never get past racism until people vent at the people who are the racists and not grouping all others with them. It is like Antifa beating up people and then claiming those people are hateful, while they commit felony assault and battery and nobody with legal authority goes after them.
The alt-right drove a car into a crowd of people and killed someone. Antifa poured a milkshake on an admitted Nazi.
You really want to side with the alt-right?
"the alt-right drive a car" holy shit dude, take a break for a while.
you're showing your ass here. and it's not pretty.
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American indians and free black farmers owned thousands of slaves also. BLACK slaves. Over 15,000.
I only wrote black in capitals because you did.
The founding father's believed slavery would end in a relatively short time period, obviously they were wrong.
I put (generally) in quotations because I knew some supercilious nerd was going to say, "BLACKS OWNED SLAVES TOO". As if that's an important point...
It's not? Why? Shouldn't ALL involved in the slave trade, regardless of color, Creed, or religious beliefs be held accountable equally? Or does that also just simply not fit the agenda?
Ricky Gervais said it well (and took a ton of shit for it), Carlin alive today would be great. he'd call out the hypocrisy of the religious right the lunacy of the far left and make those on the sidelines laugh at both.
Gervais tweeted this out after the Portland incident last weekend:
Ricky Gervais
Verified account @rickygervais
Jun 30
It's interesting that the people who believe that throwing a milkshake in someone's face shouldn't be considered assault are often the same people who believe that 'saying things' should be.
8:04 AM - 30 Jun 2019
Its kind of hysterical when you consider that if this were actually a fascist country, saying so while engaged in (often violent) protest would earn you a shallow, unmarked grave.
It literally doesn't. But cool take, bro.
Just because you don't know how to use the word literally doesn't mean you have to get butthurt at getting called out about it...
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Ah, shit has changed. Do you really want to go back through history and complain about every wrong humans have done throughout history to each other?
That's not what's happening. He's not protesting the flag in 1776, he's protesting it in 2019. It means something different to people today than it does then.
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Problem is with "your" logic is that every US flag up until 1863 should be protested because slavery was legal until then.
Where am I advocating protesting anything?
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I think the deal with the Betsy Ross flag is that some basically white high school once waved it at a Black high school during a basketball game and now it is viewed as a symbol of racism..
That story by itself shows that, to some, the flag is a symbol of white supremacy. You just proved Fatman wrong.
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We will never get past racism until people vent at the people who are the racists and not grouping all others with them. It is like Antifa beating up people and then claiming those people are hateful, while they commit felony assault and battery and nobody with legal authority goes after them.
The alt-right drove a car into a crowd of people and killed someone. Antifa poured a milkshake on an admitted Nazi.
You really want to side with the alt-right?
Yes and the KKK guy was arrested and going to spend his life in jail.
But, you know it is ok to beat up some journalists because you don't like his paper? These thugs are running around beating people and the milkshake is cement. Let me throw a pound or two of liquid cement in a cup/glass at the back of your head and then tell me how you like it and that is ok. They didn't pour a milkshake on a Nazi. After they beat the guy up and stole his camera, they threw at least one 16 oz glass full of liquid cement at his head.
And because some group latches on to a perfectly ordinary symbol, doesn't mean the symbol should be associated with them. When you give these asswipes credence you make their case and encourage them.
There is no common sense anymore. That is the problem. And Fats is correct, we have to stop being offended by everything we disagree with.
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I love that being Anti-Facist now means, literally, to be a Facist
Its kind of hysterical when you consider that if this were actually a fascist country, saying so while engaged in (often violent) protest would earn you a shallow, unmarked grave.
Yup... shaking my damned head.
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..
Just because you don't know how to use the word literally doesn't mean you have to get butthurt at getting called out about it...
When you learn what Facsism is, give me a call, bro. Literally.
If I were a brand he wouldn't be my litmus test, but as a functioning adult I wouldn't base a counter argument in any part on Kaepernick being a hypocrite. Two things can be true at once.
There's no right answer when the question is offense. It's silly to me to try and trivialize other's feelings on a symbol as just some other thing "you're" not allowed to use or like.
I tend to think symbols are imbued with power when used to effect an outcome. I also don't run with hate groups so I'm typically surprised when an innocuous symbol has been coopted for hate. That's my take, I get when others have a lower bar.
I kind of get where Kaepernick is coming from, the flag of a nation state that at the time was pretty big into slavery, isn't without some weight for a brand with the intention of being patriotic. There are plenty of other modern patriotic symbols.
Ultimately the public will decide the fait of the symbol, as is always the case. I suspect Betsey is safe from the judgement of history. But it's worth having the conversation even when the outcome, is eh that was nothing.
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I love that being Anti-Facist now means, literally, to be a Facist
It literally doesn't. But cool take, bro.
They check a few of the major boxes, including authoritarianism and suppression of opposing ideals.
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In comment 14491269 section125 said:
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Ah, shit has changed. Do you really want to go back through history and complain about every wrong humans have done throughout history to each other?
That's not what's happening. He's not protesting the flag in 1776, he's protesting it in 2019. It means something different to people today than it does then.
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Problem is with "your" logic is that every US flag up until 1863 should be protested because slavery was legal until then.
Where am I advocating protesting anything?
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I think the deal with the Betsy Ross flag is that some basically white high school once waved it at a Black high school during a basketball game and now it is viewed as a symbol of racism..
That story by itself shows that, to some, the flag is a symbol of white supremacy. You just proved Fatman wrong.
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We will never get past racism until people vent at the people who are the racists and not grouping all others with them. It is like Antifa beating up people and then claiming those people are hateful, while they commit felony assault and battery and nobody with legal authority goes after them.
The alt-right drove a car into a crowd of people and killed someone. Antifa poured a milkshake on an admitted Nazi.
You really want to side with the alt-right?
Why does calling out Antifa mean you support the alt-right? This isnt a zero-sum game. Both are worthless, backwards groups of jackasses. And your characterization of Antifa minimizes their bullshit.
of course, we should condemn all acts of violence that isn't in self defense or protecting somebody else.
It was to mock what we've become. Where offense needs nothing more than a shallow connection. Joe Biden is racist. Kate Smith is racist. The Colonial flag is a symbol of racism. Go through a yearbook for Halloween pics and you can take a career down
When people agree with these ridiculous takes - it just continues the madness.
Use a gay slur these days and you commit career suicide. Mock the cops or make up racism and you get a commercial. Speech hasn't gotten any less harsh - just the people uttering it are different.
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In comment 14491312 rnargi said:
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I love that being Anti-Facist now means, literally, to be a Facist
It literally doesn't. But cool take, bro.
They check a few of the major boxes, including authoritarianism and suppression of opposing ideals.
He apparently has not read the Fascism Manifesto of 1919 and compared their demands to those of Antifa. Or, he's simply employing rules for radicals. I bet it's the former.
Why is it worth having the conversation? If somebody disparaged minorities, religions or promoted other discriminating behaviors against something that wasn't held by the majority - would it be "worth" discussing?
If David Duke claimed a company should boycott or refrain from something is that worthy of "having the conversation". You can skip the answer because you know it is fucking rhetorical.
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In comment 14491326 rnargi said:
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..
Just because you don't know how to use the word literally doesn't mean you have to get butthurt at getting called out about it...
When you learn what Facsism is, give me a call, bro. Literally.
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In comment 14491327 adamg said:
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In comment 14491326 rnargi said:
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..
Just because you don't know how to use the word literally doesn't mean you have to get butthurt at getting called out about it...
When you learn what Facsism is, give me a call, bro. Literally.
So Obama was a fascist?
Dude, that is simply not true.
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that have been in place since the Clinton administration.
Dude, that is simply not true.
The detention and deportation policies have been in place since 1996. Many of the photos that were initially published were not even from this administration.
That isnt to say i love the current president or dont think their needs to be immigration reform. But theres a current of disingenuousness about the whole thing thats representative of politics and the media as a whole.
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In comment 14491361 j_rud said:
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that have been in place since the Clinton administration.
Dude, that is simply not true.
The detention and deportation policies have been in place since 1996. Many of the photos that were initially published were not even from this administration.
That isnt to say i love the current president or dont think their needs to be immigration reform. But theres a current of disingenuousness about the whole thing thats representative of politics and the media as a whole.
Detention and deportation writ large, yes. But you know damn well that it goes far beyond that now. And none of the photos that have come out recently are old. Come on, man.
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Ultimately the public will decide the fait of the symbol, as is always the case. I suspect Betsey is safe from the judgement of history. But it's worth having the conversation even when the outcome, is eh that was nothing.
Why is it worth having the conversation? If somebody disparaged minorities, religions or promoted other discriminating behaviors against something that wasn't held by the majority - would it be "worth" discussing?
If David Duke claimed a company should boycott or refrain from something is that worthy of "having the conversation". You can skip the answer because you know it is fucking rhetorical.
Oh come big guy, even you should able see there's logical merit in discussing whether the historical flag of a nation that sanctioned slavery could be viewed as insensitive to the ancestors of those enslaved.
And frankly that's why I asked if this was about Kaepernick being a hypocrite or the merit of the debate.
Kaepernick being hypocrite and adults having a reasonable discussion on something he expressed aren't mutually exclusive.
But maybe your purpose for posting isn't a reasonable discussion and just you moaning?
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In comment 14491364 Chris in Philly said:
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In comment 14491361 j_rud said:
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that have been in place since the Clinton administration.
Dude, that is simply not true.
The detention and deportation policies have been in place since 1996. Many of the photos that were initially published were not even from this administration.
That isnt to say i love the current president or dont think their needs to be immigration reform. But theres a current of disingenuousness about the whole thing thats representative of politics and the media as a whole.
Detention and deportation writ large, yes. But you know damn well that it goes far beyond that now. And none of the photos that have come out recently are old. Come on, man.
Of course it goes beyond that. What we're seeing now is unprecedented. And none of the pictures from the past 72 hours, sure. But the initial outrage, those flames were definitely fanned by outdated images. Its disengenuous. Just like the recent trip down there by various congresswomen. Not to say they dont care, but they're making a photo op out of a situation many of them declined to put more money into. And the recent solutions bandied about by some of the candidates are fucking laughable.
And this isnt even the point of the thread. This only came up bc some clown thought the situation at the border makes us a fascist state. And I took the bait. So Ill respectfully bow out now.
that's an unfair comparison with the age difference.
Under that logic, every flag of this country carries insensitivities. Don't limit it to racism. American Indians should have disdain for the flag. The current flag presided over a segregated part of the country.
You know what is logical? Having the wherewithall to know when a symbol carries a negative connotation vs. just being present when times were different. There's no logic in saying the Colonial flag represented racism.
The swastika didn't become a symbol of hate until it was actively used by a group promoting hate.
You are so eager to take the opposite view that now you've deluded yourself into thinking there's logic here. I'd say you should know better, but sadly, you're doing this with the full intention of trying to legitimize the argument.
Logical merit has to be tied to action - not rummaging through history looking to tie things to faux outrage
what's also new is the level people are being told to care about this. coin operated lemmings.
when the former president said we're a nation of laws and people can't come here illegally or they will be sent home, and they were detained in caged facilities it was not xenophobic or racist, but when the current president administration says and does the same thing it is.
people are so easily manipulated.
just like they are being manipulated now by suddenly saying the Betsy Ross flag is offensive. It's not, just some people are anti-America. If the Betsy Ross flag is offensive, every American flag is offensive. Jim Crow was still enforced with the current flag and people alive today can legitimately have a connection to the Jim Crow era.
So instead of viewing the flag as a positive symbol, one that helped free slaves from slavery or provide economic opportunity it's easier and more en vogue to play the victim.
What I don't agree with, is just because Kaepernick is the face of the issue, the issue isn't worth talking through.
Again, Kaepernick being a hypocrite doesn't make him immediately wrong.
Your bar for offense is pretty high, and intellectually sound. There's a fair case to be made that a symbol really needs to have been weaponized to be subtracted from the public.
But there's a rich debate in many nations on the appropriateness of using flags from less proud times for contemporary patriotism, this isn't some wild out-of-nowhere stance.
What contemporary patriotism is the Colonial flag used for? It had more visibility as part of Obama's inauguration than any other time recently
Trying to posture there is some intellectual discussion here is patently absurd.
It is a non sequitor. You are more apt to see it on the cover of SchoolHouse Rock than for any nefarious purposes.
If there is going to be "rich debate" on the subject, it will only be in the guise of faux outrage bandied about by faux intellectuals
So Obama was a fascist?
Name calling isn't helpful. No Obama wasn't a "fascist". But I wasn't a fan of his either.
What? There's no new emphasis being placed on eliminating child sex trafficking. That was one of only 2 reasons children were separated in the previous administration. Whereas the current administration's first AG said that children separation is to be used as a deterrent to people crossing the border illegally with children regardless of whether the children are theirs or there's no evidence of abuse. People claiming asylum being detained indefinitely wasn't the policy of the previous administration. And the idea that people who have no legal right to vote are being used as "a voting base" is asinine.
I hate political threads on BBI, especially ones borne of flimsy stupidity like this one. But I had to respond to this fundamentally untrue comment.
I don't think anyone is outraged faux or otherwise.
You realize that those people in those "concentration" camps came willingly and can leave to go home anytime they want. Kind of the exact opposite of actual Concentration camps. You know that.
Right?
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children or illegals in cages is not new. Having one device that serves as a sink and toilet is not new. what's new is the emphasis being placed on eliminating child sex trafficking and what's new is using illegals as a voting base aka a political tool.
What? There's no new emphasis being placed on eliminating child sex trafficking. That was one of only 2 reasons children were separated in the previous administration. Whereas the current administration's first AG said that children separation is to be used as a deterrent to people crossing the border illegally with children regardless of whether the children are theirs or there's no evidence of abuse. People claiming asylum being detained indefinitely wasn't the policy of the previous administration. And the idea that people who have no legal right to vote are being used as "a voting base" is asinine.
I hate political threads on BBI, especially ones borne of flimsy stupidity like this one. But I had to respond to this fundamentally untrue comment.
"According to the Washington Examiner: With California leading the way, human trafficking, especially in the sex and labor trades, jumped again last year and has surged 842 percent since the creation of a federally-supported hotline for victims. Reported cases of human trafficking continue to increase each year. In 2017, 8,759 cases were reported to the National Human Trafficking Hotline and BeFree Textline. This number compares to 7,737 reported cases in 2016. The overall figures represent an 842 percent increase over the 10 years Polaris has operated the Hotline, said the hotline operator which receives federal funding.
Through late June 2018, human trafficking arrests for the year approached 6,000. Thats nearly double the year prior (which itself marked an all-time high), and triple the year before that. Human trafficking-related arrests never topped 2,000 under the Obama administration and were a paltry 300 in 2010."
"According to the Washington Examiner: With California leading the way, human trafficking, especially in the sex and labor trades, jumped again last year and has surged 842 percent since the creation of a federally-supported hotline for victims. Reported cases of human trafficking continue to increase each year. In 2017, 8,759 cases were reported to the National Human Trafficking Hotline and BeFree Textline. This number compares to 7,737 reported cases in 2016. The overall figures represent an 842 percent increase over the 10 years Polaris has operated the Hotline, said the hotline operator which receives federal funding.
Through late June 2018, human trafficking arrests for the year approached 6,000. Thats nearly double the year prior (which itself marked an all-time high), and triple the year before that. Human trafficking-related arrests never topped 2,000 under the Obama administration and were a paltry 300 in 2010."
The amount of people arrested for illegally crossing the border with children is up at least 200% from the end of the previous administration. Wouldn't it stand to reason that human-trafficking arrests would be up too? Keep in mind, the amount of border patrol agents on the southern border from day 1 to the final day of the previous adminstration tripled, so it's not as if the border was ignored. (This was initially funded under Bush 43.)
Number of arrests for illegally crossing Mexican border - ( New Window )
who the fuck things colin kapernick is some litmus test for common sentiment? also, don't expect people to automatically be proud of being american with the current embarrassment that's occurring.
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I kind of just implied concentration camps full of children might not be a far-fetched conception of it.
You realize that those people in those "concentration" camps came willingly and can leave to go home anytime they want. Kind of the exact opposite of actual Concentration camps. You know that.
Right?
don't fucking defend this, it's fucking disgusting. this is NOT who we are.
👮 🚔🚨🚨🚨
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Huh??
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Its connection with white supremacist groups?
You really want your confederate flag? And this is a thread about patriotism? You realize the confederacy was literally opposed to the US and represents sedition on a grand scale?
White supremacists are waving Colonial Flags now? Shoving Betsy Ross down our throats??
Obviously, I'm not the only one with a reading problem. I wasn't talking about the colonial flag.
But, if someone were offended by the colonial flag and called a symbol of white supremacy, I would understand, because black people at the time of the colonies were largely ENSLAVED. So, in that context, it does represent slavery. That was the economic system at the time. It's silly to pretend that black people are just sensitive.
You really are ignoring history.
I am A little troubled by the argument because basically your logic requires us to throw out all of history prior to whatever recent timeframe you think is appropriate. It requires you to ignore good works, art, literature, charity, discovery because it happened of a certain time. Not just ignore, but condemn. It makes no allowance for evolution, anthropological or cultural. (And, of course, not just in this country, but world-wide, since horrors and atrocities are not limited to our borders over human history.
Today, all over the country there will be a public reading of the Declaration of Independence. It is supposedly celebratory. But, it was signed by men from the existing colonies, half of which were slave-owning states. It is the written accompaniment to the Betsy Ross flag (side note...Betsy Ross had nothing to do with the flag) and, likewise, carries the same symbolism, which ever symbolism you choose to draw from it.
Is the Declaration of Independence offensive?
"All men are created equal."
Your - likely - favorite phrase specifically excludes women.
For the time it might have been radical. But then isn't that just an argument for rejecting your reactionary worldview and embracing the CKs of the world?
To me, that is sad.
To me, that is sad.
who the fuck things colin kapernick is some litmus test for common sentiment? also, don't expect people to automatically be proud of being american with the current embarrassment that's occurring.
Well being that Comin Kaepernick is the reason why Nike pulled the shoe - which then caused Arizona to pull production of a Nike plant to follow. It seems like Kaps opinion/words have more meaning than people realize.
But hey, he promotes dead cops - so its cool to listen to him.
Dont mince words, you know what the post was intended to communicate. And its bullshit. Why is it a far-fetched conception of it? Because no one involvef is acting like a true fascist state would. Politicians with opposing views have been allowed to tour it. Media have reportrd on it in scathing editorials. Pictures have been published detailing the conditions.
None of those things happen in a fascist state. Its denied, its covered up, and dissenters are rounded up and excised from society. Jist because youre morally opposed to something doesnt make it fascist. People are playing way too fast and loose with the language in order to serve a narrative.
It also places all of the blame squarely on the United States when there are so many other factors. including other countries, that are complicit in this mess. But thats largely ignored because it doesnt fit the narrative of the shameful United States. But you even point that out you run the risk of being labeled an ultranationalist/white supremacist/misogynist.
who the fuck things colin kapernick is some litmus test for common sentiment? also, don't expect people to automatically be proud of being american with the current embarrassment that's occurring.
So you call him a huge pussy then refer to the current embarrassment
Youre really contradicting yourself there my friend
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In comment 14491451 adamg said:
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I kind of just implied concentration camps full of children might not be a far-fetched conception of it.
You realize that those people in those "concentration" camps came willingly and can leave to go home anytime they want. Kind of the exact opposite of actual Concentration camps. You know that.
Right?
oh really? the toddlers can leave on their own volition?
don't fucking defend this, it's fucking disgusting. this is NOT who we are.
So you're saying the toddlers just toddled in?
WTF does that even mean? Sure, it's a liberal talking point and a current catch phrase to show how serious you are.
but guess what, it's exactly who we are, who we should be and who we've always been. Only now you can score political points by railing against the current administration.
We are a nation of laws. when those laws get broken there are consequences.
There is a process to enter the country, regardless of where people come from or what language they speak they know there is a process and there will be consequences for not following the process.
Additionally, people bring children with them for a reason many times...because they know it increases their chance of simply getting across the border. Because of who we are.
I'm not sure what some of you expect. Tear down the border, let people simply come here at will and when they get here put them up in the Ritz Carlton, give them free education, free health care, living expenses on the backs of tax payers?
Some of you need to take a step back and ask yourselves why the sudden fever pitch of attention being paid to something that has been a political issue for decades.
People are so well coordinated in these caravans coming across our border I do not believe it is a tin foil hat conspiracy to think these are well funded coordinated efforts for a specific political reason. If you don't at least question this, the media owns you.
Lastly the majority of the people crossing are not even legitimate refugees, they openly admit they are coming here for better economic opportunity - which is not a qualifying reason for asylum. they need to wait in line like everyone else who came before them.
next you're going to say "not erasing everyone's college debt is just not who we are"
People love to say we are a nation of immigrants, and it's true, but legal immigration and illegal immigration are not the same thing. My ancestors waited in line at Ellis Island, like so many before them, and many people were turned away for many reasons and sent back to where they came from (disease, criminals, etc.)
Here is a blurb about Ellis Island for those interested in "who we are"
Upon arrival at Ellis Island, immigrants were ushered into a room called the Great Hall and paraded before a series of medical officers for physical inspection. Most were allowed to pass by in a matter of seconds, but those whom the doctors deemed physically or mentally deficient were marked with chalk and taken away for additional screening. Questionable candidates were forced to submit to more detailed questioning and medical exams, and any signs of contagious disease, poor physique, feeblemindedness or insanity could see an immigrant denied admittance on the grounds that they were likely to become a ward of the state. In later years, doctors at Ellis Island even devised puzzles and memory tests to ensure that certain immigrants were intelligent enough to find work. New arrivals could also face rejection if they were anarchists, had a criminal record or showed signs of low moral character. Despite the litany of guidelines for new immigrants, the number of people denied entry at Ellis Island was quite low. Of the 12 million people who passed through its doors between 1892 and 1954, only around 2 percent were deemed unfit to become citizens of the United States.
What you are describing at Ellis Island is not the sort of behavior or treatment people are up in arms about. Can you not see the difference in specifically implementing a cruel new policy? And then actively applying misinformation about the origin of said policy by blaming it on the prior administration?
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Theres nothing in history that should be celebrated.
To me, that is sad.
That's a ridiculous reading of what I said. But ok.
But its not. Your argument has been that things which occurred at a time where bad things happened, even if unrelated, are offensive in and of themselves. Bystander offensiveness based on their point in history where they occurred.
The flag had nothing to do with slavery and was symbolic of something completely different, but the coincidence of time has made it offensive. Likewise the Declaration. Likewise, I presume, the Constitution, which was ratified by colonies/states where slavery occurred.
If my reading of your argument, and basically CKs argument, is ridiculous, then I would say that it is spot on accurate of your argument.
The OP is a good example of this -- there isn't room for any discussion -- it's a fact this is stupid. Critically discussing, even if the discussion leads to agreeing is contrarian. And the discussion itself isn't worthy because the premise is a fact (which begs the question why post the topic other than to moan, which doesn't seem very productive).
I typicality don't jump to conclusions on matters where I don't have all the facts, and there are a lot of members of BBI with much more knowledgeable and with better researched opinions than me.
I was totally confused about Pepe the frog for instance, I don't run with hate groups, I had no idea what that was all about. Sometimes innocuous symbols have been coopted, gladly it doesn't seem to be the case here. Secondly, I am not an expert on the symbolism of flags as a historical and anthropological cause of offense.
I can kind of see Kaepernick's point, but after reading other's opinions on this thread (including FMiC) I tend to agree the symbol needs to be imbued with hate to be removed from usage, and this case doesn't pass that test.
It's funny, it's as if withholding opinion, and then coming to one after discussion, has become some kind of combative characteristic.
The OP is a good example of this -- there isn't room for any discussion -- it's a fact this is stupid. Critically discussing, even if the discussion leads to agreeing is contrarian. And the discussion itself isn't worthy because the premise is a fact (which begs the question why post the topic other than to moan, which doesn't seem very productive).
I typicality don't jump to conclusions on matters where I don't have all the facts, and there are a lot of members of BBI with much more knowledgeable and with better researched opinions than me.
I was totally confused about Pepe the frog for instance, I don't run with hate groups, I had no idea what that was all about. Sometimes innocuous symbols have been coopted, gladly it doesn't seem to be the case here. Secondly, I am not an expert on the symbolism of flags as a historical and anthropological cause of offense.
I can kind of see Kaepernick's point, but after reading other's opinions on this thread (including FMiC) I tend to agree the symbol needs to be imbued with hate to be removed from usage, and this case doesn't pass that test.
It's funny, it's as if withholding opinion, and then coming to one after discussion, has become some kind of combative characteristic.
Excellent post. Well said and I agree
The OP is a good example of this -- there isn't room for any discussion -- it's a fact this is stupid. Critically discussing, even if the discussion leads to agreeing is contrarian. And the discussion itself isn't worthy because the premise is a fact (which begs the question why post the topic other than to moan, which doesn't seem very productive).
I typicality don't jump to conclusions on matters where I don't have all the facts, and there are a lot of members of BBI with much more knowledgeable and with better researched opinions than me.
I was totally confused about Pepe the frog for instance, I don't run with hate groups, I had no idea what that was all about. Sometimes innocuous symbols have been coopted, gladly it doesn't seem to be the case here. Secondly, I am not an expert on the symbolism of flags as a historical and anthropological cause of offense.
I can kind of see Kaepernick's point, but after reading other's opinions on this thread (including FMiC) I tend to agree the symbol needs to be imbued with hate to be removed from usage, and this case doesn't pass that test.
It's funny, it's as if withholding opinion, and then coming to one after discussion, has become some kind of combative characteristic.
Good post and largely agree. I think what we're seeing is the result of increasingly partisan news coverage. The agencies have their positions, have dug their heels in, and each days news is molded to fit their respective narratives. It's dangerous and divisive.
Everything and anything can be deemed offensive when you have the persecution complex. Oh, and people on both sides can suffer from it!
Personally this is the only flag I DON'T find offensive. The song says "Sea to shining sea" Alaska and Hawaii have no right to be part of our contiguous country!
What you are describing at Ellis Island is not the sort of behavior or treatment people are up in arms about. Can you not see the difference in specifically implementing a cruel new policy? And then actively applying misinformation about the origin of said policy by blaming it on the prior administration?
The policy wasn't created to be cruel, in fact it wasn't even created, it was simply enforced.
And the biggest hypocrisy is from the people in congress who have been there for years and multiple administrations with the exact same problems only now that the lights are on and 2020 at stake they go through wild histrionics. Just look at the positions of Obama, Schumer, Pelosi, etc. from 2008 until now. And check out the media reaction from then until now. What changed? we became "woke"?
no, it's all politics. 100% politics. This went from not a crisis to a manufactured crisis, to a photo op humanitarian crisis in less than two years - when nothing changed.
In real life I don't think I'm perecieved as antagonist, probably just not very quick and confused a lot. Thus the really needing it spelled out to understand or come to a conclusion/opinion.
Anyway, good discussion, and I learned something. I hope the political elements of the thread don't get it taken down. As a minority, the topics of race in sports, business, and culture really interest me and it's worth discussing.
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You seem to want to ignore or brush aside that a specific policy (the Zero Tolerance initiative) was implemented by the current administration.
What you are describing at Ellis Island is not the sort of behavior or treatment people are up in arms about. Can you not see the difference in specifically implementing a cruel new policy? And then actively applying misinformation about the origin of said policy by blaming it on the prior administration?
The policy wasn't created to be cruel, in fact it wasn't even created, it was simply enforced.
And the biggest hypocrisy is from the people in congress who have been there for years and multiple administrations with the exact same problems only now that the lights are on and 2020 at stake they go through wild histrionics. Just look at the positions of Obama, Schumer, Pelosi, etc. from 2008 until now. And check out the media reaction from then until now. What changed? we became "woke"?
no, it's all politics. 100% politics. This went from not a crisis to a manufactured crisis, to a photo op humanitarian crisis in less than two years - when nothing changed.
Politicians and corporate media are vile scum looking out to enrich themselves in collusion. It's all agenda, just wish we had a commish who was not a complete moron and kept this garbage out of football.
(1) silencing of dissidents, (2) destroying the past, and (3) indoctrination of the youth. Because of Mao's total political and military control, he could delay the indoctrination oh the youth.
Lacking Maos total control, the order in the U.S. required indoctrination first.
(a) For decades, our youth have been taught that Capitalism is racist and evil, and that our quality of
life is only limited by corporations and the wealthy. Socialism is the preferred political structure on college campuses.
(b) We see numerous occurrences where Conservatives are shouted down and attacked to prevent them from speaking in public. Fox News is irresponsible journalism. Conservatives are defined by leading Progressive Politicians as those who cling to their god and their guns and stupid, ignorant, uneducated, non- educated deplorables.
(c) Everything that emanated from our Founding Fathers was rooted in racism and therefore invalid, up to and
including the design of modern shoes. The electoral college should be replaced to represent fairness, but
only for urban centers.
We are copying others history, with a goal of a single dominant political party.
Thankfully most, if not all the people I run into in life don't take such strong stances or aren't as clairvoyant in the ways of what other think or will do.
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You seem to want to ignore or brush aside that a specific policy (the Zero Tolerance initiative) was implemented by the current administration.
What you are describing at Ellis Island is not the sort of behavior or treatment people are up in arms about. Can you not see the difference in specifically implementing a cruel new policy? And then actively applying misinformation about the origin of said policy by blaming it on the prior administration?
The policy wasn't created to be cruel, in fact it wasn't even created, it was simply enforced.
And the biggest hypocrisy is from the people in congress who have been there for years and multiple administrations with the exact same problems only now that the lights are on and 2020 at stake they go through wild histrionics. Just look at the positions of Obama, Schumer, Pelosi, etc. from 2008 until now. And check out the media reaction from then until now. What changed? we became "woke"?
no, it's all politics. 100% politics. This went from not a crisis to a manufactured crisis, to a photo op humanitarian crisis in less than two years - when nothing changed.
Pj, that policy absolutely was created. There was a press conference held by Jeff Sessions in May 2018 announcing said policy. And the policy was implemented as an added deterrent. that lead to an increase in child detainees and family separation.
This does not mean that Obama, Bush, Clinton, etc didn't have their own family separation and children detained events or issues. I am not trying to imply that this is a new thing, but that the current administration has most certainly made this worse and led to a crisis, manufactured or not.
How long have 40,000 people been crossing the border every day?
gtt always brings the quality.
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each day,that is a huge crisis that we don't have the resources to handle. The manufacturered crisis came from the left saying there wasn't one. now that it's so big they switch to look we have concentration camps. total bs
How long have 40,000 people been crossing the border every day?
I dont honestly know, but Im sure there has been a steady stream for a very long time which has always been a huge problem. However, I feel like there was a bump because of the Caravans which seem to have been targeted responses to the current admin.
Thats off by about a factor of 10. Total for all of May, which was a 13 year high, was @ 144K.
Maybe Kapernick is just really really dumb, ergo says and does a lot of really really dumb stuff?
there is a crisis that was ignored and now the reporting is the complete opposite of two months ago
CBP has not provided June numbers yet, but they were running lower. July obviously just started.
The immigration situation, specifically along the southern border has changed very much in the last 12-24 months -- why that's controversial to acknowledge really goes over my head.
There are very decent and logical analysis to be made on the topic, but wildly miscalculating the numbers doesn't seem very productive.
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each day,that is a huge crisis that we don't have the resources to handle. The manufacturered crisis came from the left saying there wasn't one. now that it's so big they switch to look we have concentration camps. total bs
Thats off by about a factor of 10. Total for all of May, which was a 13 year high, was @ 144K.
Thats still an incredibly high number. Im all for smart immigration reform thsts in line with basic human rights. I think the vast majority of people are. At the same time its not racist, xenophobic, or jingoist to wonder how thats sustainable. Keep kids with their families. Offer asylum when its necessary. But do what's in the best interest of America. Plenty of countries have strict immigration policies and arent seen as immoral. We can thank oportunistic politicians and an agenda driven media for that.
That's one factor that's maybe too logical or unsexy to discuss.
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In comment 14491812 gtt350 said:
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each day,that is a huge crisis that we don't have the resources to handle. The manufacturered crisis came from the left saying there wasn't one. now that it's so big they switch to look we have concentration camps. total bs
Thats off by about a factor of 10. Total for all of May, which was a 13 year high, was @ 144K.
Thats still an incredibly high number. Im all for smart immigration reform thsts in line with basic human rights. I think the vast majority of people are. At the same time its not racist, xenophobic, or jingoist to wonder how thats sustainable. Keep kids with their families. Offer asylum when its necessary. But do what's in the best interest of America. Plenty of countries have strict immigration policies and arent seen as immoral. We can thank oportunistic politicians and an agenda driven media for that.
Maybe we could resume helping some of these people at the source so that they feel less of a need to come here in the first place.
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In comment 14491850 Jim in Fairfax said:
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In comment 14491812 gtt350 said:
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each day,that is a huge crisis that we don't have the resources to handle. The manufacturered crisis came from the left saying there wasn't one. now that it's so big they switch to look we have concentration camps. total bs
Thats off by about a factor of 10. Total for all of May, which was a 13 year high, was @ 144K.
Thats still an incredibly high number. Im all for smart immigration reform thsts in line with basic human rights. I think the vast majority of people are. At the same time its not racist, xenophobic, or jingoist to wonder how thats sustainable. Keep kids with their families. Offer asylum when its necessary. But do what's in the best interest of America. Plenty of countries have strict immigration policies and arent seen as immoral. We can thank oportunistic politicians and an agenda driven media for that.
Maybe we could resume helping some of these people at the source so that they feel less of a need to come here in the first place.
I don't disagree. I think cutting it was a short-sighted move and probably had a lot to do with the caravans. I dont think its crazy to wonder if it was an organized response.
Poverty and lack of economic mobility, specifically as the agrerian economy there has weakened seems to be more the driving factor.
The amount of aid required to stimulate depressed economies, and the efficiency of even doing so is on its own is a huge topic. A generation of aid and loans in Africa hasn't done much to stem the tied of immigration nor really stimulated economies in meaningful ways.
There's an argument to be made letting immigrants in from these areas, and letting them eventually contribute to the US economy is much cheaper and more efficient.
Bravo BBI
Bravo BBI
It was a different problem. Back then it was mostly Mexican men coming for seasonal work on farms or in construction.
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In comment 14491850 Jim in Fairfax said:
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In comment 14491812 gtt350 said:
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each day,that is a huge crisis that we don't have the resources to handle. The manufacturered crisis came from the left saying there wasn't one. now that it's so big they switch to look we have concentration camps. total bs
Thats off by about a factor of 10. Total for all of May, which was a 13 year high, was @ 144K.
Thats still an incredibly high number. Im all for smart immigration reform thsts in line with basic human rights. I think the vast majority of people are. At the same time its not racist, xenophobic, or jingoist to wonder how thats sustainable. Keep kids with their families. Offer asylum when its necessary. But do what's in the best interest of America. Plenty of countries have strict immigration policies and arent seen as immoral. We can thank oportunistic politicians and an agenda driven media for that.
Maybe we could resume helping some of these people at the source so that they feel less of a need to come here in the first place.
Not going to say I'm an expert on this optic, but I believe this was the intent for the aid we have been providing to these countries for decades.
Does that funding make its way to the people who need it?
As an example, the US taxpayers provide $180M per year to Honduras in foreign aid. Of that $180M, 89% of it is "economic"
What is that for? If it's not helping to create job, feed their poor, provide welfare to those who need it, then that aid is probably (possibly?) being misused and helping to create this situation where people come here for economic opportunity.
If it's just not enough to help then that's a different problem.
Now if more aid is the answer or not, depends 1) what's the desired outcome 2) how do you measure the success of the desired outcome 3) what's not part of calculation for the desired outcome.
Now if more aid is the answer or not, depends 1) what's the desired outcome 2) how do you measure the success of the desired outcome 3) what's not part of calculation for the desired outcome.
I'm out of my depth on this topic. Really don't know how it works, and in general any time fund raising or aid is mentioned I've always been curious how it really gets to the intended target.
Not knowing more though I'd believe in-kind services is definitely the way to go over cash.
I don't know the answer, other than I believe the economic aid the US tax payers provide to these central/south American countries was intended to make it so the vast numbers we're seeing don't need to flee their country for economic reasons.
When that aid is/was stopped I assume it was because it was being misappropriated in some way.
i'd love to read about how it works if someone has a solid source.
2- Nike made a benign decision to create the shoe. CK tried to create a political decision for them, but actually it was probably more of an economic decision- the people in CKs sphere of influence were people more likely to buy Nike in the first place. So in order to "avoid accidentally offending some people" (?) they decide that they could do better by intentionally offending millions who made up a demographic that they were less concerned about.
3- We should make conditions better in the Northern Triangle so people won't feel the need to come here? And where does it end? Used to be we were being overrun by Mexicans. Now by Central Americans. Then what? South Americans, Middle Easterners and Africans and Asians. There are billions of poor and oppressed people on this planet. We are a compassionate people, but we have neither the ability nor the obligation to make right all the misery in this world. You don't make countries run by thieves and despots desirable by trying to pour money into them. Like here, the desire to effect change has to come from within.
4- I don't think we should be the world's policemen. I think our definition of "natural interest" should be substantially scaled back. But the truth is that without the weight of the U.S. military, the rest of the world would be run by Chinese and Russian Communists and by Islamists.
5- For those who have a problem with this country- What is there about Mexico and Central America that we should be trying to emulate by making their cultures a larger and larger percentage of our population?
If the Council on Foreign Relations doesn't ring to loud of a political bell, they have pretty factual papers on the sequence of events.
Yes, very practical.
5- For those who have a problem with this country- What is there about Mexico and Central America that we should be trying to emulate by making their cultures a larger and larger percentage of our population?
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn't mean culture, and meant something less patently xenophobic at best, and down right bigoted at worst with this comment.
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5- For those who have a problem with this country- What is there about Mexico and Central America that we should be trying to emulate by making their cultures a larger and larger percentage of our population?
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn't mean culture, and meant something less patently xenophobic at best, and down right bigoted at worst with this comment.
How about you don't worry about what I meant and just answer the question?
However, it is not the symbol of these groups, as the swastika became the symbol of Nazism and the Confederate flag.
The reality is the overwhelming majority of Americans of all walks of life associated this flag with nothing but a symbol of patriotism and independence. It was not even known that any white supremacist group ever used it in a picture. Now, this flag is forever tainted and unusable as a the symbol that it is recognized for solely because of Kaepernick and Nike.
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5- For those who have a problem with this country- What is there about Mexico and Central America that we should be trying to emulate by making their cultures a larger and larger percentage of our population?
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn't mean culture, and meant something less patently xenophobic at best, and down right bigoted at worst with this comment.
How about you don't worry about what I meant and just answer the question?
Pushy and racist -- that's a winning combination.
Given it's my culture that's so objectionable to you, I'm probably too biased of a source on the matter.
But just a friendly heads up, y'all have already let too many of us in, so you'd probably really start preparing for more and more of this culture you disdain.
As white American population growth stagnates, we're growing just fine. We're the largest growing section of the population, and as white America in the coming decades dips below the majority line, we're right there ready to exceed a third of the population.
Good thing you're already rooting against the women's national soccer team, it'll prepare you for your soon to come all Latin US men's team. And many other US teams, and institutions that will be progressively more and more Latin with all that culture.
Statistical tendencies: ( doubt it then you do the homework)
1) Families have a much higher rate of staying together
2) Socially and religiously conservative
3) Children have a higher percentage chance of being raised in a two parent religious home
4) Less likely to use cigarettes, be overweight and drink...leading to a safer less costly health system for all. As a total population, they are less likely to be drug users.
5) Used to be evenly divided between Dems and Republicans
6) Work and work hard at jobs many will not take. Many families have two full time workers.
7) Tend to be pro-life and anti welfare.
All tendencies you would like to see more of in America. Or do you want more of other values ?
Don't debate...self educate. Look up the data on the social beliefs and tendencies of actual latin cultures.
Does not mean I am in favor of unrestricted immigration or not holding to our laws. ( btw we all to know that the border crossings are not the main source of illegal immigration? that's the coastline not the border). Does not mean I am in favor of more immigration. Im not.
But don't take my word for it. Please go research the question. Its just information. We all do better with more information
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In comment 14492815 christian said:
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5- For those who have a problem with this country- What is there about Mexico and Central America that we should be trying to emulate by making their cultures a larger and larger percentage of our population?
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn't mean culture, and meant something less patently xenophobic at best, and down right bigoted at worst with this comment.
How about you don't worry about what I meant and just answer the question?
Pushy and racist -- that's a winning combination.
Given it's my culture that's so objectionable to you, I'm probably too biased of a source on the matter.
But just a friendly heads up, y'all have already let too many of us in, so you'd probably really start preparing for more and more of this culture you disdain.
As white American population growth stagnates, we're growing just fine. We're the largest growing section of the population, and as white America in the coming decades dips below the majority line, we're right there ready to exceed a third of the population.
Good thing you're already rooting against the women's national soccer team, it'll prepare you for your soon to come all Latin US men's team. And many other US teams, and institutions that will be progressively more and more Latin with all that culture.
You think you know me, but you don't know me at all. I love legal immigrants, I even sometimes cry when I hear their stories on TV. I dislike illegal immigration, as do, btw, most people of "your culture" who are going through the process of coming here legally. I don't have a disdain for Mexican/central American culture. Neither do I admire it. I believe strongly in the American experiment. I believe in the melting pot and not the salad bowl. I'm as fine with Latinos being on U.S. soccer and baseball teams as I am with Canadians being on hockey teams. I value talent and exceptionalism, both in sports and in immigration policy. If the Mexican and central American cultures were so great, one would think with see immigrants flocking in that direction, but we don't. Yet, I believe there are many, many people from those cultures who would be great assets to this country. I think as a sovereign nation we should be able to pick and choose those individuals. Again, you haven't answered my question. I'm always willing to learn.
Sorry, I could only go by what the post seemed like it was saying.
My position is much closer to yours. My only concern is that in the name of policy and politics we are losing sight of the humans who do not know and leave in desperation for our border.
We assume that what we are doing is a deterrent to more coming across. Most small Central American and lower Valley or Yucatan villages I remember do not have more than a feew TVs and news is not the draw ( Music or sports programming) so I think these folks have a dream of a better life and are prey to a variation of smuggler/trafficers.
I don't think they are criminals or trying to be illegals. Criminals would try to get in a safer and easier way ( and they do).
just imo. Take care Bill. Thanks for the clarifying post
What do you even mean by culture? You do realize all of those excellent individuals you'd like to invite into your country bring the same culture as those you'd rather not have? That legal immigrants bring largely the same customs, foods, art, language, stories, and practices as aslym seekers and undocumented immigrants.
Again, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt you're just misusing the word culture, and mean something different.
Maybe you mean government and socioeconomic structures? -- Governance and economies are very broken in Latin America (in many countries in part thanks to the US).
Maybe you mean law enforcement and the justice system -- those institutions are very corrupt and broken in Latin America. Specifically in relation to drug and drug trafficking, which again, the primary demand comes from white Americans.
There are many institutions broken in that part of the world -- that is why people are feeling and people are not flocking. It has nothing to do with culture.
And just for reference, the "desirable" immigrants -- educated, industrialists, the wealthy -- these are the architects of those instructions. That might be the group you actually might not want in your country.
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In comment 14491269 section125 said:
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Ah, shit has changed. Do you really want to go back through history and complain about every wrong humans have done throughout history to each other?
That's not what's happening. He's not protesting the flag in 1776, he's protesting it in 2019. It means something different to people today than it does then.
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Problem is with "your" logic is that every US flag up until 1863 should be protested because slavery was legal until then.
Where am I advocating protesting anything?
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I think the deal with the Betsy Ross flag is that some basically white high school once waved it at a Black high school during a basketball game and now it is viewed as a symbol of racism..
That story by itself shows that, to some, the flag is a symbol of white supremacy. You just proved Fatman wrong.
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We will never get past racism until people vent at the people who are the racists and not grouping all others with them. It is like Antifa beating up people and then claiming those people are hateful, while they commit felony assault and battery and nobody with legal authority goes after them.
The alt-right drove a car into a crowd of people and killed someone. Antifa poured a milkshake on an admitted Nazi.
You really want to side with the alt-right?
Yes and the KKK guy was arrested and going to spend his life in jail.
But, you know it is ok to beat up some journalists because you don't like his paper? These thugs are running around beating people and the milkshake is cement. Let me throw a pound or two of liquid cement in a cup/glass at the back of your head and then tell me how you like it and that is ok. They didn't pour a milkshake on a Nazi. After they beat the guy up and stole his camera, they threw at least one 16 oz glass full of liquid cement at his head.
And because some group latches on to a perfectly ordinary symbol, doesn't mean the symbol should be associated with them. When you give these asswipes credence you make their case and encourage them.
There is no common sense anymore. That is the problem. And Fats is correct, we have to stop being offended by everything we disagree with.
The problem here is who are the "we" you are talking about? All of us? Or just some of us? How many does it take as a percentage of "all" (that is, how big is the "some") to get to something at least approximating "nearly all of us" instead of just "most" of us so that we know who we are talking about when we say "we"? If it's only "most" of us, or, worse, something that at best is only a "majority" of us, it is very hard for any symbol (flag, say) to gain recognition as having a single, universal meaning or to insist that it should be regarded as having that meaning to "all." It can't and won't.
Personally, I'd prefer our flag, including the old Colonial flag, to have and stand for one universal meaning for all Americans. And I loathe those who bring up nonsense that degrades my flag or who mistreat it. But I cannot prevent either behavior. Annoying, but this is America.
Statistical tendencies: ( doubt it then you do the homework)
1) Families have a much higher rate of staying together
2) Socially and religiously conservative
3) Children have a higher percentage chance of being raised in a two parent religious home
4) Less likely to use cigarettes, be overweight and drink...leading to a safer less costly health system for all. As a total population, they are less likely to be drug users.
5) Used to be evenly divided between Dems and Republicans
6) Work and work hard at jobs many will not take. Many families have two full time workers.
7) Tend to be pro-life and anti welfare.
All tendencies you would like to see more of in America. Or do you want more of other values ?
Don't debate...self educate. Look up the data on the social beliefs and tendencies of actual latin cultures.
Does not mean I am in favor of unrestricted immigration or not holding to our laws. ( btw we all to know that the border crossings are not the main source of illegal immigration? that's the coastline not the border). Does not mean I am in favor of more immigration. Im not.
But don't take my word for it. Please go research the question. Its just information. We all do better with more information
bill2, thanks for your input and I'll take it at face value. It seems like many of the points you make are due to a high percentage of practicing Catholics. That will change for many as they move here out of poverty. It confuses me that if they basically have these conservative values, why are the Democrats so eager for them to come here? I don't doubt that most are good people and hard workers. My vision of American exceptionalism is based on how we have led the world in science and innovation, much of it produced by legal immigrants. We are in a battle now to maintain that position and our lifestyles into the future. I would gear our immigration policy towards bringing in those kinds of contributors. You can teach people to do many jobs. You can't teach people to be super smart. When we train them in our schools, keep them here.
What do you even mean by culture? You do realize all of those excellent individuals you'd like to invite into your country bring the same culture as those you'd rather not have? That legal immigrants bring largely the same customs, foods, art, language, stories, and practices as aslym seekers and undocumented immigrants.
Again, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt you're just misusing the word culture, and mean something different.
Maybe you mean government and socioeconomic structures? -- Governance and economies are very broken in Latin America (in many countries in part thanks to the US).
Maybe you mean law enforcement and the justice system -- those institutions are very corrupt and broken in Latin America. Specifically in relation to drug and drug trafficking, which again, the primary demand comes from white Americans.
There are many institutions broken in that part of the world -- that is why people are feeling and people are not flocking. It has nothing to do with culture.
And just for reference, the "desirable" immigrants -- educated, industrialists, the wealthy -- these are the architects of those instructions. That might be the group you actually might not want in your country.
I'll use this definition of culture "the customs, arts, social institutions, and intellectual achievements of a particular nation"
You've responded to me 3 times and you've made ad hominen attacks in each. I like your style, lol. My idea of a discussion is that it should seek to prove who is right, not who is an asshole. Being an asshole and being right are not mutually exclusive and vv. I'm sorry if you took any of my comments personally, they weren't meant to be. I does show why it's silly for some to think that we can have an "honest discussion about race" as the politicians and media like to call it. I'm getting too vested in this thread, so I'm going to drop out here.
But, assimilation has to be a goal IMO unifying people as one nation.
I think what Teddy Roosevelt said in 1907 (posted below) still rings true today and if the Italians, Irish, Germans, Jews, Polish, etc. were expected to live up to this, I don't see why it would be racist to expect Central or South American or Mexican immigrants to live up to this as well.
Christian, it seems like you have no desire or intent to and you throw out the racist label at Bill in UT and then hide behind "I'm a minority, I can't be racist" passive aggression.
Look in the mirror buddy.
The USA to work needs unity, of course not every single person will ever be unified, but comments like yours that basically say "we outbreed you so we will outnumber you and force our culture down your throat" and that is about as Un-American as you can get. The American culture IS a melting pot, sure it's been dominated by european/white heritage for all of the countries existence, but if people shared the goal of becoming "America" then it won't matter where anyone comes from, the result will be beautiful greatness. You can see the influence already in America of the many cultures and countries of the immigrants who live here - in pop culture, food, music, etc. and it's a great thing.
But instead you choose to divide.
The Teddy Roosevelt quote IMO is what Making America great again is about not xenophobia, not racism, not white nationalism, but the spirit of we don't care where you're from, we want you to be here and be one of us. I don't agree with the language part as a condition for entry/becoming a citizen, but I do think it should be a goal and felt that same way with my ancestors speaking Italian, or whatever language they spoke.
I wasn't intending to be attacking of you -- I'm being genuine. That's a xenophobic and racist perspective, and as a Mexican American, I really don't believe you and I would get along well. I won't engage you in the future.
The notion you feel it's appropriate to question what contribution my race and people have made to this country and will make to this country -- might a good place to start if you are really curious as to why you might not be able to have a peaceful conversation about race.
Statistical tendencies: ( doubt it then you do the homework)
1) Families have a much higher rate of staying together
2) Socially and religiously conservative
3) Children have a higher percentage chance of being raised in a two parent religious home
4) Less likely to use cigarettes, be overweight and drink...leading to a safer less costly health system for all. As a total population, they are less likely to be drug users.
5) Used to be evenly divided between Dems and Republicans
6) Work and work hard at jobs many will not take. Many families have two full time workers.
7) Tend to be pro-life and anti welfare.
All tendencies you would like to see more of in America. Or do you want more of other values ?
Don't debate...self educate. Look up the data on the social beliefs and tendencies of actual latin cultures.
Does not mean I am in favor of unrestricted immigration or not holding to our laws. ( btw we all to know that the border crossings are not the main source of illegal immigration? that's the coastline not the border). Does not mean I am in favor of more immigration. Im not.
But don't take my word for it. Please go research the question. Its just information. We all do better with more information
This is a fabulous post. I truly believe that most americans have no clue what Mexican or Central American culture is. Hell, we assume Canadians are just like us mainly because they are white, drink beer and seem affable. Our cultures aren't the same.
For the most part Americans don't seek to learn other cultures, we don't seek to learn other languages. We try to push our way as the best. In a recent thread about the World Cup, we were called Ugly Americans for celebrating. We're Ugly Americans because we don't expand our understandings. It saddens me when somebody thinks Mexico is a country of drug cartels and people fleeing to the US just to become a drain on resources. The majority of Mexicans I've been friends with came to this country at a much higher standing in their country, to work and better not just their lives, but their families lives. Some of the most unselfish people ever. You think an American doctor would go to another place to be a waiter, dishwasher or line cook? You think a former business owner would go to a foreign land and work construction and landscaping?
People can want stricter immigration laws, but they don't have to do it by making sweeping generalizations about a culture. That's a problem we face today.
Assimilation is a critical component of migration. It's a goal and aspiration for the vast majority of immigrants who come to this country. Learning English and learning to be American is both necessary and desired.
My family in particular when coming here wanted nothing more than to be Americans, made great effort and take great pride in America, fought for America, succeeded as Americans and still maintain the proud and dignified culture of Mexico. We are Mexican Americans.
Assimilation does not, nor has ever meant questioning the merits of the culture from where one migrates, nor an aversion to that culture contributing to the multicultural makeup of this great country.
Im not sure that it is as true now as before though. And its nt cultural r racial but t instead to generational. The people who brought us richness were legal immigrants who came here and, and this holds true for the older generations f established people as well, who didnt ask for anything but who not not followed the rules but used them as well. Work two jobs while going to school, rate song themselves up, etc.
Its not just the masses on the borders who arent coming through channels but the endemic culture which is progressively rotting.
Assimilation is a critical component of migration. It's a goal and aspiration for the vast majority of immigrants who come to this country. Learning English and learning to be American is both necessary and desired.
My family in particular when coming here wanted nothing more than to be Americans, made great effort and take great pride in America, fought for America, succeeded as Americans and still maintain the proud and dignified culture of Mexico. We are Mexican Americans.
Assimilation does not, nor has ever meant questioning the merits of the culture from where one migrates, nor an aversion to that culture contributing to the multicultural makeup of this great country.
If I misunderstood, I apologize. sometimes context is hard to glean from the written word. I got that impression from your 9:55 post.
It seems like you are using Latino reproduction rate as a threat.
Seems just as racist as anything anyone else posted in this thread.
It shouldn't matter.
There is the reality that the Latin American population is significant and growing in this country, even if immigration were completely frozen from that part of the world.
If there is a strong aversion to Latin American culture, and a view the culture is undesirable, it's a big problem to be addressed. Personally I find the question extremely offensive, and intimates Latin Americans are less than, because their culture is not admirable. That's a heck of a statement.
I genuinely wanted to clarify if that was the intent of the statement, and it appears it was.
Did Jewish people drop the influence of their religion or societies? Any other catholics dump their religion when they got here in large number starting in 1820?
Are many folks in Minnesota Lutheran to this day because they chucked all that when they got here in 1840?
And lastly....are conservative family based cultures religion based or often found in agrarian based economies which requires hard work from all around them and from all generations ?? Careful with the answer. The correlation is strongest based on the type of economy.
Lastly, IQ is not race distributed. So the clich of hard working Asians being smarter is just that...a clich. Notice once again a farm based all hands on deck working environment instead of a religious correlation between willingness to work.
For a larger larger view lets realize that without technology gains that lead to greater productivity ( as occurred with the conversion to steam energy, then with electricity distribution, then agricultural gains, then harnessing oil and gas, then telmcom, then computers; when elites take too much and the pie is not growing for others...people begin to move around. For their children. Millenia old phenomenon.
Can we afford to bring in people when our middle is not growing? Is it our problem that they have worse problems?
The issue is not about their culture. The issue is we may not be able to afford a baby boom not producing ( a really bad generation in my opinion), a middle stagnating, an elite without answers beyond themselves and also take on assimilating many other folks.
We cant assimilate many more until we are more integrated. imo.
Probably lasted because of the generic thread title. Mods probably are unaware. If Kaepernick had been inserted in the thread title, I'm sure it would be gone.
Without migration from Latin America, population stagnation is all but settled in the next 50 years, and population erosion likely to follow.
It's also important to look at college participation rates for immigrants and 1st and 2nd generation Latin Americans, and the outsized proportion to their population as an indicator of upward mobility and economic participation.
BillL. There is the wit I remember!
BillL. There is the wit I remember!
Bingo. There's a good economic case to be made for steady migration across all classes to fuel a multi-class economy that consumes, grows, and moves upward.
Targeting one stratum, particularly educated or mid-education immigrants, runs the risk of pitting them against what's left of the mobile middle class for better paying jobs.
I'm keeping an eye on the real job market for home health care and aid, child care and lower skill construction (if we ever get around to infrastructure) -- typical landing spots for immigrant labor.
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In comment 14491186 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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Banning dollar bills, nickels and references to most of our Founding Fathers shall be deemed verboten....
Are the founding fathers sacred? You sound insane.
Is the family of Kamala Harris sacred? Seems so since she's apparently given a pass despite her family owning slaves.
Snopes reports as a current meme on right-wing sites. This claim has yet to be verified.
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In comment 14491190 adamg said:
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In comment 14491186 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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Banning dollar bills, nickels and references to most of our Founding Fathers shall be deemed verboten....
Are the founding fathers sacred? You sound insane.
Is the family of Kamala Harris sacred? Seems so since she's apparently given a pass despite her family owning slaves.
Snopes reports as a current meme on right-wing sites. This claim has yet to be verified.
I dont think anyone should care even if it was true. I think its sick that someone should be held accountable for what an ancestor...or even a sibling...did, no matter how reprehensible the deed may have been. That in and f itself is indecent and inhuman.
Sounds like a plan. Companies could keep families in indentured servitude for generations.
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In comment 14491200 rnargi said:
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In comment 14491190 adamg said:
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In comment 14491186 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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Banning dollar bills, nickels and references to most of our Founding Fathers shall be deemed verboten....
Are the founding fathers sacred? You sound insane.
Is the family of Kamala Harris sacred? Seems so since she's apparently given a pass despite her family owning slaves.
Snopes reports as a current meme on right-wing sites. This claim has yet to be verified.
I dont think anyone should care even if it was true. I think its sick that someone should be held accountable for what an ancestor...or even a sibling...did, no matter how reprehensible the deed may have been. That in and f itself is indecent and inhuman.
I agree completely. I only posted this because too many here are just blindly accepting info that may not be accurate, but which fits their agendas. Hell, we're all susceptible to preconceived notions, but some try to0 find out more about such things than just shoveling them out into the swill trough.
Yeah, really? I can't vouch for Jamaica Global Online, the source of this story, only to say I'm also including a link to Politico which has a story saying that Donald Harris, Kamala's father, has sent material to Jamaica Global.
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/02/20/kamala-harris-father-pot-1176805
Link - ( New Window )
It's as unbiased a source as is available. Should this assertion prove to be true, they'll acknowledge it, as they have with numerous other issues.
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as an unbiased source?
Yeah, really? I can't vouch for Jamaica Global Online, the source of this story, only to say I'm also including a link to Politico which has a story saying that Donald Harris, Kamala's father, has sent material to Jamaica Global.
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/02/20/kamala-harris-father-pot-1176805 Link - ( New Window )
And no one ever tries to burnish their bloodline, ever, right? It may or may not be true, but hold off on spouting it until it's verified.
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as an unbiased source?
It's as unbiased a source as is available. Should this assertion prove to be true, they'll acknowledge it, as they have with numerous other issues.
Like others I don't care about this issue even a little, but snopes will give it a partially true or mostly false if they can't completely find a way to say completely false/true- whatever it takes to mostly fit their narrative.
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Its sad people look up to him.
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In comment 14493291 pjcas18 said:
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as an unbiased source?
It's as unbiased a source as is available. Should this assertion prove to be true, they'll acknowledge it, as they have with numerous other issues.
Like others I don't care about this issue even a little, but snopes will give it a partially true or mostly false if they can't completely find a way to say completely false/true- whatever it takes to mostly fit their narrative.
Appears like it doesn't fit your narrative, but that's the issue I take issue with.
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In comment 14493300 BMac said:
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In comment 14493291 pjcas18 said:
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as an unbiased source?
It's as unbiased a source as is available. Should this assertion prove to be true, they'll acknowledge it, as they have with numerous other issues.
Like others I don't care about this issue even a little, but snopes will give it a partially true or mostly false if they can't completely find a way to say completely false/true- whatever it takes to mostly fit their narrative.
Appears like it doesn't fit your narrative, but that's the issue I take issue with.
Yes. My narrative is wanting unbiased facts, so if that's what you have issue with then that's you.
Here is one article about snopes fact checking and their spin from a third, unaffiliated, party.
While I do acknowledge knowing what is fact vs opinion vs made up is really hard these days, I'm not sure snopes should be your end all be all.
Link - ( New Window )
Careful tough guy those champagne coolies will sneak up on you.
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Everyone drink each time pjcas says narrative!
Careful tough guy those champagne coolies will sneak up on you.
He graduated from Zimas?
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In comment 14493328 Chris in Philly said:
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Everyone drink each time pjcas says narrative!
Careful tough guy those champagne coolies will sneak up on you.
He graduated from Zimas?
Bartles and James for the win, baby!
At my age I'm just enjoying life.
Good to see B2 and a lot of others in on this discussion.
The term he needs to start using is minority not contrarian. Much of the idealism of our country is based on the concept that the dissenting or minority opinion has a voice and needs to be heard. Unfortunately it took some time to become applicable to every gender, race, color and creed.
Good and needed change doesnt happen overnight...it takes time.
I guess it does on BBI too...
The colonial flag has exponentially more good than bad in representing what occurred during its time and circumstances. But was there bad during the colonial period and amongst its colonists?..of course. Have the legacies and descendants of those colonists continued to develop and become more good over time?...of course.
How great it must be for CK to wake up and live in the world of 2019 and enjoy the good and poke fingers at all that is or was bad...
Of course, the last couple posts might try and steer it a different direction, especially since the guy using a term "chucklehead" is one of the biggest ones of all.
Fucking clown.
Of course, the last couple posts might try and steer it a different direction, especially since the guy using a term "chucklehead" is one of the biggest ones of all.
Fucking clown.
Hey, hes adding to his repotoire.
Of course, the last couple posts might try and steer it a different direction, especially since the guy using a term "chucklehead" is one of the biggest ones of all.
Fucking clown.
Oh its off course now...why?
Damn those contrarians...they shore do mez things up
Hey, hes adding to his repotoire.
Geez, I even added more than one pithy comment. Several sentences this time just for you.
You sure are tough to please...