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NFT: July 4th Knicks Chat

Jon in NYC : 7/4/2019 12:13 pm
This is your captain speaking. All aboard the Elfrid Payton Bandwagon.

Quote:
”I’ve never been in war with Bobby (Portis), but I can see how he gets down, so to speak,’’ Payton said. “He’s a dog. Taj Gibson? He’s a dog. When I saw those signings, [coming to the Knicks] was almost a no-brainer.

“Just sit back and watch, man. They’ll grow to love this group of guys. It’s totally natural to feel some type of way when you miss out on guys like Kevin Durant and Kyrie Irving, but I think they’re going to grow to love this group. I feel we embody what New York basketball was about back in the day – just being grimy, tough guys who play with a chip on their shoulder and have something to prove.”

Link - ( New Window )
Actions will speak louder than words  
Canton : 7/4/2019 12:23 pm : link
But I like his moxy.
if he can continue to shoot better  
nygiants16 : 7/4/2019 12:35 pm : link
he is a better fit for tye projected starting lineup than dennis smith and love.smith but him with the 2nd unit may be better.

Surrounded by better shooters he can attack and score
Music to my ears.  
bceagle05 : 7/4/2019 12:35 pm : link
I made that exact point on a recent Knicks thread - Fizdale should emphasize the "us against the world" mantra with this group. This offseason was a slap in the face to everyone - star players didn't meet with us, the free agents we did sign were mocked, RJ was viewed as a consolation prize, people think Knox and Frank are busts, and Brooklyn supposedly has "taken over" New York basketball. These guys should play with a huge chip on their shoulder. Put DeAndre Jordan on his ass when you see him, for example.
That's all well and good  
Eli Wilson : 7/4/2019 12:38 pm : link
And the FA signings were solid.

But you don't win an NBA championship with just solid guys, you need at least one ALL-NBA type talent. Do we have one of those? Maybe, but maybe not.
RE: That's all well and good  
Stu11 : 7/4/2019 12:50 pm : link
In comment 14491730 Eli Wilson said:
Quote:
And the FA signings were solid.

But you don't win an NBA championship with just solid guys, you need at least one ALL-NBA type talent. Do we have one of those? Maybe, but maybe not.

Who in gods name is talking championship with this group? See thats the problem around here You guys thought we'd skip from 17 wins to a title contnder. Oklahoma didn't do it, Toronto didn't, Even GS took awhile. The past few seasons we've started to make an effort to accumulate young talent. I think the hopes here is that 1 or 2 of these FA's like Randle or maybe Payton can be a serious rotation piece down the road. too long posters here have said that 35-40 wins is "NBA hell". Well its a stepping stone to something better. If we don't make the playoffs this year which we probably won't, then maybe we're around 33 wins and get lottery luck like Memphis/NO. Its time to build by steps. I do see a what he is saying. Say what you want about guys like Portis and Gibson, they're tough.
I'm moved past  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 7/4/2019 12:51 pm : link
the anguish of not landing a big star. Build the team up, develop a winning culture, & take steps in the right direction.
just have  
MookGiants : 7/4/2019 1:01 pm : link
to find a way to win 40-42 games and the media will act like it's an incredibly successful season and how great the Knicks culture is.
RE: just have  
Stu11 : 7/4/2019 1:04 pm : link
In comment 14491745 MookGiants said:
Quote:
to find a way to win 40-42 games and the media will act like it's an incredibly successful season and how great the Knicks culture is.

Mook the funny thing is us fans will. We're so starved for competitive basketball we'll love it if they go 41-41
The Knicks need to get lucky in the lottery  
Dave in PA : 7/4/2019 1:10 pm : link
There’s almost no other way to take the next step. GS had Curry drop to them at 7. Both Leonard and Giannis went at 15. The Knicks “just” need this to happen to them and then the rest will fall into place. Barrett is hopefully the first real big piece to this rebuild. Still need another one in the draft and if this team is going to win 25 to 30 games, they need some freakin luck to land a top pick again. I too am over the gloom of the KD injury and ensuing disappointment. It’s time for this franchise to finally turn the corner.
RE: just have  
nygiants16 : 7/4/2019 1:23 pm : link
In comment 14491745 MookGiants said:
Quote:
to find a way to win 40-42 games and the media will act like it's an incredibly successful season and how great the Knicks culture is.


if knicks make the playoffs at 6 7 or 8 they will get ripped, if they suck and inly win 20 games they will get ripped...

it really doesnt matter at this point
The Jackson regime fucked up with the Ntilikina pick  
Canton : 7/4/2019 2:13 pm : link
and not seeing Mitchell. That still stimgs.

40-42 wins is a win.  
manh george : 7/4/2019 2:40 pm : link
The key reason Durant/Leonard chose the Nets, by many observations, was that the Nets had a mature group of young veterans, so that Durant/Leonard were closer to being finishing touches, with little risk that rookies and near-rookies of 19-21 would disappoint.

If the Knicks can show a winning attitude and team cohesion, and some part of the group of Robinson, Randle, Barrett, Smith, Knox, Payton, Kadeem Allen, the Frenchman, Trier, Dotson and Portis can show some real talent, there will be opportunities for sign-and trades off of the team option second years, and a real shot at signing a top-line FA in 2020 or 2021. Some of their large group of draft picks can also be part of a sign-and trade.

And top talent WILL love coming to the Garden if there is a real base in place--the crazy owner notwithstanding. Right now, the base is too young and too unproven. If that changes, the entire attraction of being at the Garden changes with it.

I have hopes for several of that list above that of the conventional wisdom. Dotson, for example, played almost all of last year with a fully torn right labrum for which he just got surgery. Of course this hurt his three-point shooting. Knox needs to get stronger and more aware. He may or may not--we will see some of it in summer league. Portis has to show dome defense, but he's only 24. Smith has to shoot better. Trier has to show that he can keep his head up and pass more often.

None of this is impossible, and if enough of it happens, 40-42 is very possible. The Knicks lost as lot of games last year from extreme lack of depth--they ran out of steam. That shouldn't happen this year. And a few of these guys could really kick ass.
Donovan Mitchell was pick #13  
GiantJake : 7/4/2019 2:46 pm : link
Frank was clearly a reach and questionable pick, but 12 teams passed on Mitchell in 2017. It happens.
Perry signed a bunch of thugs  
Vanzetti : 7/4/2019 2:59 pm : link
All these guys are bangers. Tough. Not afraid of contact.

Its the Oakley/Mase Knicks redux
RE: The Jackson regime fucked up with the Ntilikina pick  
Jim in Fairfax : 7/4/2019 3:01 pm : link
In comment 14491783 Canton said:
Quote:
and not seeing Mitchell. That still stimgs.

Drafting Frank. Treating KP like shit. Signing Noah. Giving Carmelo a max deal with a no-trade. Acquiring players based on how they would fit in the triangle. Insisting the team run the triangle but not taking the reins as coach and actually implementing it.

Phil rogered us good.

RE: The Jackson regime fucked up with the Ntilikina pick  
ChaChing : 7/4/2019 3:04 pm : link
In comment 14491783 Canton said:
Quote:
and not seeing Mitchell. That still stimgs.

Tough to say that when DMitch was 13, and there's few in that top 15 looking all that good anyway. Not much else they could have done, and they weren't the only teams to miss on him. And no one thought Frank would be THIS bad even if he was a reach (tho more of an unknown). Meantime, KP was a fantastic pick but here we are post trade

I'd rip the coaches b4 the pick if anything. The Spurs get & build good value no matter how talented the player is on draft night, nor how late the pick. While I bet their scouting is top notch, I'd put more money on Pop & the staff being the biggest influence on that outcome. Can't expect that, but even this last yr, has anyone improved all that much? Frank, KK? DSJ's or Trier's decision-making? Team D? Tho early, not a whole lot so far
RE: Perry signed a bunch of thugs  
ChaChing : 7/4/2019 3:10 pm : link
In comment 14491801 Vanzetti said:
Quote:
All these guys are bangers. Tough. Not afraid of contact.

Its the Oakley/Mase Knicks redux

Hope you're right, but this is the 2019 NBA, and these FAs don't defend. At that point you really are a 'thug' if you're just physical but suck at D

I'm psyched to see what happens, but not expecting anything close to an Oak / Mase team, be it D, effort or likely even bball IQ tbh. We'll see, but these guys were signed as 1 yrs, but with some upside. Mostly place-holders, with a small shot at more, at the team's discretion w/ the options
RE: Donovan Mitchell was pick #13  
nygiants16 : 7/4/2019 3:48 pm : link
In comment 14491796 GiantJake said:
Quote:
Frank was clearly a reach and questionable pick, but 12 teams passed on Mitchell in 2017. It happens.


to be fair frank would of been oicked 9th if thenknicks didnt take him
RE: RE: That's all well and good  
Eli Wilson : 7/4/2019 3:50 pm : link
In comment 14491739 Stu11 said:
Quote:
In comment 14491730 Eli Wilson said:


Quote:


And the FA signings were solid.

But you don't win an NBA championship with just solid guys, you need at least one ALL-NBA type talent. Do we have one of those? Maybe, but maybe not.


Who in gods name is talking championship with this group? See thats the problem around here You guys thought we'd skip from 17 wins to a title contnder. Oklahoma didn't do it, Toronto didn't, Even GS took awhile. The past few seasons we've started to make an effort to accumulate young talent. I think the hopes here is that 1 or 2 of these FA's like Randle or maybe Payton can be a serious rotation piece down the road. too long posters here have said that 35-40 wins is "NBA hell". Well its a stepping stone to something better. If we don't make the playoffs this year which we probably won't, then maybe we're around 33 wins and get lottery luck like Memphis/NO. Its time to build by steps. I do see a what he is saying. Say what you want about guys like Portis and Gibson, they're tough.


I didn't mean this year. At some point you need that guy or guys. So at some point you either need to be able to sign one or develop one. It's frustrating that we had a perfect opportunity and came up way short. It's still OK to be pissed about it and yet root for the young guys to do well.
A decent, even-keeled perspective on NYK FA  
ChaChing : 7/4/2019 3:51 pm : link
It does have it's emotional knick fan moments (esp re: KD), but better details some of our recent conversations

It also - gulp - comps to BK. Tho we've been talking about BK's rebuild starting ~3 yrs ago, he's saying 4-5, which changes the case study a bit

Maybe the Sky Isn't Falling - ( New Window )
RE: The Jackson regime fucked up with the Ntilikina pick  
Strahan91 : 7/4/2019 4:33 pm : link
In comment 14491783 Canton said:
Quote:
and not seeing Mitchell. That still stimgs.

Not to rub it in but they actually did see Mitchell but had Frank ranked a little higher. A report came out after the draft that they tried to trade for another first (believe it was 10 - wherever Portland took Collins) after taking Frank to select Mitchell.
RE: The Knicks need to get lucky in the lottery  
81_Great_Dane : 7/4/2019 4:39 pm : link
In comment 14491750 Dave in PA said:
Quote:
There’s almost no other way to take the next step. GS had Curry drop to them at 7. Both Leonard and Giannis went at 15. The Knicks “just” need this to happen to them and then the rest will fall into place. Barrett is hopefully the first real big piece to this rebuild. Still need another one in the draft and if this team is going to win 25 to 30 games, they need some freakin luck to land a top pick again. I too am over the gloom of the KD injury and ensuing disappointment. It’s time for this franchise to finally turn the corner.
This is exactly right. Getting lucky doesn't mean getting the #1 pick, it's hitting on your picks wherever they are in the draft. There's a huge element of luck with that. We'd all like to think it's great scouting but if that were true, half the league wouldn't have passed on Kawhi and Giannis. Some guys develop, some don't.

It's also luck when you get a reclamation project or young guy who wore out his welcome at his first stop, then develop him. The Nets got a little lucky with DeAngelo Russell.

They got lucky with Mitch. If Trier turns into a valuable NBA player, that's a little lucky. Jury's still out on Knox and Frank; they're still very young. We hope they got lucky with RJ and Iggy. They need to get lucky with Smith, Randle and some of the other young guys.
Yes you have to get a bit lucky  
Dave on the UWS : 7/4/2019 6:07 pm : link
Leonard was picked at #15. Where was Mitchell Robinson picked? Oh yeah, Second rd. In a re-draft he goes too 10 lottery. No one knows what his ceiling is. Knox’s either, has he turned 20 yet? Develop the talent they have THEN look for that finishing piece(s).
It is a ton of luck, but Kawhi is far from just that  
ChaChing : 7/4/2019 6:31 pm : link
Spurs put him thru the ringer, in addition to his own desire to be great. While all teams have to develop, their version of it is likely more robust, efficient & effective, aside from their relatively solid ability to scout beforehand as well as usage in game

They aren't perfect, but even a Tiago Splitter short term was solid, White & Murray now, iirc Mills, Danny Green. No matter where they pick they get solid value. That aside from the luck aspect of Tim or KL. They simply do it the right way and are fantastic at building players. It's why Pop is cemented as HC until proven otherwise (or he's quits)

Then even Giannis, iirc coach Bud is an SA disciple and did quite well in Atl. As good as they're scouting was, there's much more that than just luck of the draw on draft night. Hopefully Fiz has that in him, but this is early in his first HC stint, so we have little to go off
RE: A decent, even-keeled perspective on NYK FA  
Vanzetti : 7/4/2019 7:14 pm : link
In comment 14491824 ChaChing said:
Quote:
It does have it's emotional knick fan moments (esp re: KD), but better details some of our recent conversations

It also - gulp - comps to BK. Tho we've been talking about BK's rebuild starting ~3 yrs ago, he's saying 4-5, which changes the case study a bit Maybe the Sky Isn't Falling - ( New Window )


A healthy KD and Kyrie is worth the risk of two max contracts. But would even that have been enough to win a championship? Probably not unless the young guys really develop quickly. Definitely would have been a 50+ win team but maybe not a championship team.

An injured KD? The only way I see that working out is if Knicks landed a top 3 pick again next year while KD healed.

I would still take a chance on KD and Kyrie if they were willing to sign with the Knicks. But it is far from a certainty that they would have broght that elusive championship to MSG. And if KD can't come back at near the same level, think what a disaster it could turn out to be.



RE: Perry signed a bunch of thugs  
TyreeHelmet : 7/5/2019 7:24 am : link
In comment 14491801 Vanzetti said:
Quote:
All these guys are bangers. Tough. Not afraid of contact.

Its the Oakley/Mase Knicks redux


No it’s not. The players they signed are poor defenders and soft on that side of the ball. Their games are the opposite of Oak and Mase. The Knicks are going to be an awful defensive team.
My Knicks wishlist this season is small  
Jay on the Island : 7/5/2019 12:18 pm : link
All I want to see is RJ Barrett show enough where we are convinced that he is the future face of this franchise.

Also I want to see Mitchell Robinson continues to improve and ends the season as a top 5-10 center.

Lastly I want to see a big step forward from Knox. If those three things happen I will be very happy with the direction of the team.
ChaChing  
ColHowPepper : 7/5/2019 1:08 pm : link
'Sky Isn't Falling' good solid piece. It has only felt like the sky fell because expectations in Knicksland and BBI are always unrealistically high.
Yeah not bad. Mostly I like the detail, just adding to our debate here  
ChaChing : 7/5/2019 8:51 pm : link
While there are legit questions, the meat & potatoes is patience & development, so for the first time it seems like they are on the right track

I don't like the lack of D, nor passing on KL (if true), but if that overall strategy stays consistent this will be a totally different team & franchise than the one we've been watching the last few decades
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