that none of the knicks moves have been announced yet?
I just came here to post this as I was thinking the same thing. I’m not sure what else could be up though. Even if they wanted to explore a deal for RW (not my preference) it would destroy their credibility with players and agents to renege on their deals.
Melo has become so underrated by fans and Knicks fans especially. When’s the next time the Knicks will have a player finish 3rd in MVP voting? I think we would all thrilled if Barrett became that or landed on any all nba teams ( which Melo did 6 times). Anyone expect Barrett to become a 10 time all star?
And Melo wasn’t a traditional high flying fast athlete. But he had an incredible first step and was a very strong player. Losing that first step years ago really effected his game.
Lastly, he’s one of the most beloved and well liked guys among nba players in the league. I’m not saying it’s the main reason the Knicks struck out, but don’t you think star players took notice of how the Knicks treated him in the end?
They treated him how he deserved to be treated. He was a lazy and selfish player who cared about "getting his" and little else. He will go to the HOF, no doubt, but to people who know the game realize he's not the guy who will contribute much to wins.
do you realize how bad the nuggets wre before melo got there?
that none of the knicks moves have been announced yet?
I just came here to post this as I was thinking the same thing. I’m not sure what else could be up though. Even if they wanted to explore a deal for RW (not my preference) it would destroy their credibility with players and agents to renege on their deals.
unless they are trying to work sign and trades i dont get why they are not done
a huge Melo guy but he also had bad luck roster wise.
Player A) 19.7 points 5.6 boards 3.5 assists on 44.5% shooting, 37% from 3, 19.7 PER, .157 WS/48
Player B) 24.0 points 6.5 boards 3.0 assists on 44.9% shooting, 35% from 3, 20.3 PER, .127 WS/48
One is seen as a winning all-time great who won a ring playing with 2 other HOFers and the other is a "loser" who mostly played with crap.
Player A is Paul Pierce. It’s not an unreasonable comparison, but Pierce is a superior player.
First, his numbers there are dragged down by lower production of his last few seasons, mostly after the Celtics. In particular note that Pierce had 8 seasons with WS of 10+, while Carmelo had 1.
And second: Pierce was a pretty good defender and put in a serious effort on that end. Carmelo was a poor defender, in large part because he expended little effort at it. And that lack of effort I think rubs off on other players. If the team star doesn’t work on that end, others tend to follow suit.
a huge Melo guy but he also had bad luck roster wise.
Player A) 19.7 points 5.6 boards 3.5 assists on 44.5% shooting, 37% from 3, 19.7 PER, .157 WS/48
Player B) 24.0 points 6.5 boards 3.0 assists on 44.9% shooting, 35% from 3, 20.3 PER, .127 WS/48
One is seen as a winning all-time great who won a ring playing with 2 other HOFers and the other is a "loser" who mostly played with crap.
Player A is Paul Pierce. It’s not an unreasonable comparison, but Pierce is a superior player.
First, his numbers there are dragged down by lower production of his last few seasons, mostly after the Celtics. In particular note that Pierce had 8 seasons with WS of 10+, while Carmelo had 1.
And second: Pierce was a pretty good defender and put in a serious effort on that end. Carmelo was a poor defender, in large part because he expended little effort at it. And that lack of effort I think rubs off on other players. If the team star doesn’t work on that end, others tend to follow suit.
paul pierce was a horrid defender until garnett got there and was a perennial loser...
that none of the knicks moves have been announced yet?
I just came here to post this as I was thinking the same thing. I’m not sure what else could be up though. Even if they wanted to explore a deal for RW (not my preference) it would destroy their credibility with players and agents to renege on their deals.
the only other thing is if they were working on a deal for westbrook is they are reworking their free agent deals to go longer tonspread out cap hit to preserve more cap space...
but otherwise i have no idea why nothing announced, they announced iggys deal
Even if you believe there's still more talent to dig through Â
with wiggins, look at the contracts he's signed in the NBA while coasting on his athleticism and presumed talent. What incentive does a guy who hasn't been a hard worker yet have to become a hard worker after signing 100+ million dollar contracts?
After two games, there are a large number of Knick fans who have decided that RJ will be a huge bust. Two games. I could go and list all the players who started poorly in the Summer League and ended up with big careers (Tim Duncan for one) but I don't think that will modify the doomsday thinking.
Kid turned 19 a month ago. Played a long college season and came into SL probably over-hyped and really just needs to settle down.
RJ was the top prospect in the USA and Canada from the time he was 14 (other than last year when Zion passed him) that doesn't just go away in two Summer League games.
Kid has the will, size, historic success to be a star.
due respect but when it comes to a guy like Tim Duncan EVERYONE knew he'd be a superstar + Summer League isn't meant for a traditional big (even back then). Only true morons would have freaked out over Duncan starting slow. We had 4 seasons at Wake to tell us.. he was a monster.
Fans are just reacting to the games, not overreacting. Â
People are overreacting to the reaction, if that makes sense. Even during the game telecast, Doris Burke - who I like - was constantly saying "step back from the ledge, Knicks fans," as if we're a bunch of imbeciles. I'm kinda tired of it, frankly. RJ has some holes in his game that we've all known about, and they've been on display these first two games. If we're supposed to ignore these games they wouldn't be airing primetime on ESPN.
who has played poorly in his two Summer League games so far. Obviously everyone wants him to come in and play well, or even dominate, but he's not a finished product. So hopefully he'll work hard to better himself and be the player he has the potential to be.
That's my take. I'm not overreacting, but it's become obvious that Barrett is going to need some work. Hopefully Fiz can be the guy to get him there.
I thought Zion looked out of shape in his first game Â
Should be interesting now that everyone's spent their cap space - this is why the big names usually go first and start the dominoes, but Kawhi is a different cat. Now it's a mad scramble.
RJ was the top prospect in the USA and Canada from the time he was 14 (other than last year when Zion passed him) that doesn't just go away in two Summer League games.
So what? Josh McRoberts was the #1 high school recruit in the country once upon a time. So were Brandon Jennings and OJ Mayo.
That's largely up to him. What a lot of people are saying is that he has a lot to improve on if he's to be the player some people were making him out to be.
totally agree with you on Duncan. He just stood out as an example and I didn't want to do a ton of research on the players who performed poorly in the Summer League and still had terrific careers. A more recent example is Trae Young. Atlanta passed on Doncic for this guy and he had a really poor shooting start in the SL and it looked like the Hawks screwed up. But Young know looks like one of the top young players in the league.
Honestly? I don't think Trae Young was all that impressive Â
He's not bad, but he didn't shoot particularly well (and not just to start the season - he had a hot February but regressed back to his earlier performance in March and April). Excellent passer/playmaker, atrocious defender. If he can tighten up his deep shooting and be at least average defensively, then he can be a real star, but so far he's a pretty incomplete player.
is a top 3 seed first... OKC or NYK? I'm going Thunder
I'd say the same but I don't know how much of an indictment on the Knicks it is vs how lucky OKC got with the desperation of LAC in the PG trade. While not quite the same, the Pelicans with winning the lottery and the Lakers desperation to get AD was just incredibly lucky. The Knicks never have such luck...
I know a few teams could use him but don’t have the assets. Everyone is saying Detroit.... but are they trading Jackson and a shit load of picks?
I still think Minny is the best place for him and they have a bad contract to send back too.
Detroit, Miami, Minnesota all make some sense for one reason or another given that the state of their rosters. It's hard to figure out what Westbrook will cost. I don't think it'll be nearly as much as the casual NBA fan thinks he's worth but is he a straight salary dump at this point with a protected first or two or does he cost more?
all the stock On athleticism. Early on, it can partially cover up for deficiencies and flaws. When I watched Barrett at Duke, he appeared to me to be a smooth player who thinks the game and gets the most out of his athleticism. He doesn’t succeed because of it. Where we ARE on the same page, is it will take awhile, maybe quite awhile for him to reach his full potential. He’s barely 19, he may not get to that point until 22 or 23 years old. For frustrated Knick fans, that’s a long time to wait. It is what it is. They are going to play him at big guard, but as he grows into his body, he may be better suited for the 3 too.
Think of it this way - how did Barrett succeed in college? It certainly wasn't because of his jump shot, which stunk, or efficient offensive play. It was because he was terrific at getting to the basket and finishing. Which is a good thing....but you have to take into consideration that most of the players who guarded him in college were smaller and inferior athletes. It's going to be much harder for him to dominate that way in the NBA.
Yes, it's way too early to decide anything about RJ Barrett based off two SL games. These games have, however, demonstrated the shortcomings that some of us talked about before the draft, things that were apparent at Duke. Whether he can overcome those flaws and become a high end player, we'll see. It's absolutely possible that he will, but he's no can't-miss player.
Think of it this way - how did Barrett succeed in college? It certainly wasn't because of his jump shot, which stunk, or efficient offensive play. It was because he was terrific at getting to the basket and finishing. Which is a good thing....but you have to take into consideration that most of the players who guarded him in college were smaller and inferior athletes. It's going to be much harder for him to dominate that way in the NBA.
Yes, it's way too early to decide anything about RJ Barrett based off two SL games. These games have, however, demonstrated the shortcomings that some of us talked about before the draft, things that were apparent at Duke. Whether he can overcome those flaws and become a high end player, we'll see. It's absolutely possible that he will, but he's no can't-miss player.
Excellent question. I was on board with Garland, especially if they weren't sold on Kyrie/Kemba - we desperately need shooting, and Garland could provide it. Not sure I'd stake my reputation on it if I were on Perry's position though. Easy for me to say it from the peanut gallery.
groove....but definitely can't write RJ off despite how bad he's looked. I did warm up to him prior to the draft knowing he'd be the pick, and frankly no other GM in the league, maybe except Jerry West, would pass him up even if they felt someone else had a higher upside.
Having said that, it's frightening to see total scrubs rejecting his pull-up 3 and attempted layups. He's just so methodical out there, there is no suddenness or change of direction to his moves. I still say he can be a smaller Paul Pierce, who wasn't a top notch athlete himself, but RJ's shot needs to get a lot better.
After the whirlwind free agency period, I got to read some of the articles and it surprised me how highly thought of SGA is. The Knicks brass definitely scouted him when they did Knox, I wonder how they thought of him. What's the difference between the two, is it instincts, guile, creativity? Knox is younger/bigger/longer, and on the same tier athletically, but SGA definitely is the better player. How did they miss that?
Think of it this way - how did Barrett succeed in college? It certainly wasn't because of his jump shot, which stunk, or efficient offensive play. It was because he was terrific at getting to the basket and finishing. Which is a good thing....but you have to take into consideration that most of the players who guarded him in college were smaller and inferior athletes. It's going to be much harder for him to dominate that way in the NBA.
Yes, it's way too early to decide anything about RJ Barrett based off two SL games. These games have, however, demonstrated the shortcomings that some of us talked about before the draft, things that were apparent at Duke. Whether he can overcome those flaws and become a high end player, we'll see. It's absolutely possible that he will, but he's no can't-miss player.
Are there really deficiencies? Or is it simply lack of conditioning and work, at this stage of things?
I guess we'll see.
His shot is absolutely a deficiency at this time Â
It stunk at Duke and it stinks in Summer League. With him, you can't even hang your hat on a good FT% as a reason to expect his shot to improve, because he's bad at the stripe, too.
RE: I am sure some here are still waiting for Frank to find his offensive Â
groove....but definitely can't write RJ off despite how bad he's looked. I did warm up to him prior to the draft knowing he'd be the pick, and frankly no other GM in the league, maybe except Jerry West, would pass him up even if they felt someone else had a higher upside.
Having said that, it's frightening to see total scrubs rejecting his pull-up 3 and attempted layups. He's just so methodical out there, there is no suddenness or change of direction to his moves. I still say he can be a smaller Paul Pierce, who wasn't a top notch athlete himself, but RJ's shot needs to get a lot better.
After the whirlwind free agency period, I got to read some of the articles and it surprised me how highly thought of SGA is. The Knicks brass definitely scouted him when they did Knox, I wonder how they thought of him. What's the difference between the two, is it instincts, guile, creativity? Knox is younger/bigger/longer, and on the same tier athletically, but SGA definitely is the better player. How did they miss that?
There was a report the day of the draft that the Knicks were interested in SGA and liked him quite a bit. He was a late riser. He seemed duplicative with Frank to me at the time given their strengths and weaknesses. Of course, that's why you don't draft position based on need but it's not like he stood out relative to Knox at Kentucky. They seemed like similar caliber prospects (to me at least).
Young Melo was a hell of an athlete in certain areas. His first step was devastating which is why he used so many jab steps in the first place, before it became a meme in his later years. He exploded off the ground early on in Denver too, he was super aggressive and dunked on people often.
Those Denver teams were not weak teams he carried though, they were pretty damn deep. Billups was arguably more valuable than Melo during their peak as a team.
Paul Pierce was a far better defender than Melo and a better overall player because of it imo. Pierce was one of the main defenders on Kobe Bryant in an NBA Finals, he was also a guy who guarded LeBron a ton. Melo never had any chance at guarding those guys despite being younger, and his defense became a joke as he got older.
RJ Barrett isn't super explosive, but he's really crafty at getting to the rim. He's actually pretty similar to Paul Pierce in that sense. Pierce was was stronger while Barrett seems more fluid, but there are some similarities in their style. Pierce shot 60.6% from the FT line and 30.4% from the 3PT line as a Frosh and ended his college career at 35.5% /69.7%; he turned into a very good shooter in the NBA. Barrett (30.8%/66.5%) can still can develop into a similar caliber shooter, so I wouldn't write him off after a rough SL start.
it's just a body type issue but I'm kind of shocked how little physical change we have seen from Frank year 1 to now, and Knox and Mitch from 1 to 2.
Frank did seem to put on a little muscle but I wonder if this has to do with the fact that he keeps growing. He was ~2 inches or more taller last year than in his rookie year and he seems to have grown again. He looks a good 2 inches taller than Dotson in this photo from Sunday who measured 6'5.5 at the combine coming out in shoes. Link - ( New Window )
Young Melo was a hell of an athlete in certain areas. His first step was devastating which is why he used so many jab steps in the first place, before it became a meme in his later years. He exploded off the ground early on in Denver too, he was super aggressive and dunked on people often.
Those Denver teams were not weak teams he carried though, they were pretty damn deep. Billups was arguably more valuable than Melo during their peak as a team.
Paul Pierce was a far better defender than Melo and a better overall player because of it imo. Pierce was one of the main defenders on Kobe Bryant in an NBA Finals, he was also a guy who guarded LeBron a ton. Melo never had any chance at guarding those guys despite being younger, and his defense became a joke as he got older.
RJ Barrett isn't super explosive, but he's really crafty at getting to the rim. He's actually pretty similar to Paul Pierce in that sense. Pierce was was stronger while Barrett seems more fluid, but there are some similarities in their style. Pierce shot 60.6% from the FT line and 30.4% from the 3PT line as a Frosh and ended his college career at 35.5% /69.7%; he turned into a very good shooter in the NBA. Barrett (30.8%/66.5%) can still can develop into a similar caliber shooter, so I wouldn't write him off after a rough SL start.
Those Denver rosters were NEVER legit title contending supporting casts on paper. 2008, they won 54 games look at the roster and tell me you see "title contender". 2009 Iverson was gone, 53 wins, top 4 players by VORP... Nene, Melo, Billups and Chris Anderson. Melo never had a Garnett/Ray Allen/Rondo supporting cast or anything even close to it. Link - ( New Window )
comparisons sake Denver had 4 players with +2.0 VORP on the 2008 team, 3 on the 2009 team, the Championship celtics had 4 players 2.5+ VORP, Perkins 2.4 and Allen/Rondo both posting 4.3
it's just a body type issue but I'm kind of shocked how little physical change we have seen from Frank year 1 to now, and Knox and Mitch from 1 to 2.
Frank did seem to put on a little muscle but I wonder if this has to do with the fact that he keeps growing. He was ~2 inches or more taller last year than in his rookie year and he seems to have grown again. He looks a good 2 inches taller than Dotson in this photo from Sunday who measured 6'5.5 at the combine coming out in shoes. Link - ( New Window )
Video from yesterday, looks roughly the same to me going into season 3. A little thicker sure. Knox looks exactly the same. Link - ( New Window )
No question. I just read some try to downplay those Nuggets squads saying Melo carried them, which wasn’t really the case. Billups was right there with Melo in terms of value. Nene/K-Mart are two guys who were great defenders who also provided solid offensive value, both of those guys are underrated. JR was a great bench scorer during that time in the 6th man of the year mix. Birdman was a great backup rim protector during those years. That’s a squad.
Scout: "I haven't seen him play fast or really blow off the floor on a drive yet. He hasn't looked explosive off the dribble. Maybe some of that is due to a layoff between his college games and Summer League games. But he wasn't overly fast at Duke. He did well in bullying opponents with his size and strength at that level. Can that translate well to the NBA? Or will he need to make adjustments? That's another reason to not get overly excited about two Summer League games. He's going to gain strength and can get faster over time."
Scout: "I've watched RJ since he was in high school and he always plays extremely hard. And despite his shooting struggles, we've seen that in his first two games in Vegas. Look at his (10) rebounds from the other night. He has a great motor. That's why I think he'll reach his potential at this level - whatever that ultimately is. I'm not worried about him putting in the work to maximize his talent."
Scout: "He's gotten some decent looks from the perimeter but his shot doesn't have a ton of arc and seems heavy. Maybe some of that is nerves, but the looks have been there for him. He's also forced some shots and missed open teammates. You'd think those reads come with experience."
Scout: "He's looked a little stiff at times in these first two games. Is that because of nerves? Or is that what he is? I didn't see a lot of bouncy athleticism from him in the first two games. Maybe that was just a product of him being a bit nervous. I'm not sure."
Scout: "There's no reason to get caught up too much in Summer League in general, particularly after just two games. What you can't measure with these guys - what we don't see in the stands or on tape - is what's inside of them. Their heart. What drives them. Are they obsessed with being great? Or are they content with making NBA money? Does that make them complacent? You get the sense that RJ is the kind of person that's driven to be great. But that's one of those variables that we can't measure."
That said i dont love the "heart" and "hard worker" type stuff. I mean its def good, but thats not why you draft a kid at #3.
I dunno. I think that's an underrated factor in whether talent turns into a successful career. There are examples of guys who had ability but fell short or washed out due to a work ethic or bad mindset across many sports. Surely it's not why you draft a guy at whatever slot, and we can debate whether Barrett actually had the talent to be taken where he did, but a driven player who wants to put the work in is more likely to maximize on his ability even without superior talent or athleticism than a guy who coasts on athletic gifts.
Fans & media undervalue the importance of what happens AFTER draft Â
tho it's clearly a ton more of an influence than the pick itself
For example the top 3 all have weaknesses. Even in a strong draft, all but a few are 'NBA ready' and still take time carve out an NBA role, aside from stardom. This is heavily based on work-ethic, motivation, bball IQ among other things. So while I agree, RJ's weaknesses from college were on display for 2 games, it's nonsense to make this into any real concern. If in 1-2 years he's still shown little improvement - and I do mean little as we're still not done w/ Knox - then it's time to worry. That too after we generally say year 3 tends to be the make or break moment. We also haven't seen his strengths fwiw - not like those just disappeared even if he adjusts slowly
And I am disappointed - Iggy played poorly game 1 but attacked, played hard w/ confidence - RJ the opposite. Still it's nothing to flip on yet
To act as if he didn't translate to wins there is just moronic.
And shitting on a HoF player is really stupid.
Hell, you can say some of the same things about Wilt. And it would be equally as dumb.
I just came here to post this as I was thinking the same thing. I’m not sure what else could be up though. Even if they wanted to explore a deal for RW (not my preference) it would destroy their credibility with players and agents to renege on their deals.
Quote:
Melo has become so underrated by fans and Knicks fans especially. When’s the next time the Knicks will have a player finish 3rd in MVP voting? I think we would all thrilled if Barrett became that or landed on any all nba teams ( which Melo did 6 times). Anyone expect Barrett to become a 10 time all star?
And Melo wasn’t a traditional high flying fast athlete. But he had an incredible first step and was a very strong player. Losing that first step years ago really effected his game.
Lastly, he’s one of the most beloved and well liked guys among nba players in the league. I’m not saying it’s the main reason the Knicks struck out, but don’t you think star players took notice of how the Knicks treated him in the end?
They treated him how he deserved to be treated. He was a lazy and selfish player who cared about "getting his" and little else. He will go to the HOF, no doubt, but to people who know the game realize he's not the guy who will contribute much to wins.
do you realize how bad the nuggets wre before melo got there?
To act as if he didn't translate to wins there is just moronic.
And shitting on a HoF player is really stupid.
Hell, you can say some of the same things about Wilt. And it would be equally as dumb.
The guy played in 52 playoff games in 17 years.
Quote:
that none of the knicks moves have been announced yet?
I just came here to post this as I was thinking the same thing. I’m not sure what else could be up though. Even if they wanted to explore a deal for RW (not my preference) it would destroy their credibility with players and agents to renege on their deals.
unless they are trying to work sign and trades i dont get why they are not done
Player A) 19.7 points 5.6 boards 3.5 assists on 44.5% shooting, 37% from 3, 19.7 PER, .157 WS/48
Player B) 24.0 points 6.5 boards 3.0 assists on 44.9% shooting, 35% from 3, 20.3 PER, .127 WS/48
One is seen as a winning all-time great who won a ring playing with 2 other HOFers and the other is a "loser" who mostly played with crap.
Player A is Paul Pierce. It’s not an unreasonable comparison, but Pierce is a superior player.
First, his numbers there are dragged down by lower production of his last few seasons, mostly after the Celtics. In particular note that Pierce had 8 seasons with WS of 10+, while Carmelo had 1.
And second: Pierce was a pretty good defender and put in a serious effort on that end. Carmelo was a poor defender, in large part because he expended little effort at it. And that lack of effort I think rubs off on other players. If the team star doesn’t work on that end, others tend to follow suit.
Quote:
a huge Melo guy but he also had bad luck roster wise.
Player A) 19.7 points 5.6 boards 3.5 assists on 44.5% shooting, 37% from 3, 19.7 PER, .157 WS/48
Player B) 24.0 points 6.5 boards 3.0 assists on 44.9% shooting, 35% from 3, 20.3 PER, .127 WS/48
One is seen as a winning all-time great who won a ring playing with 2 other HOFers and the other is a "loser" who mostly played with crap.
Player A is Paul Pierce. It’s not an unreasonable comparison, but Pierce is a superior player.
First, his numbers there are dragged down by lower production of his last few seasons, mostly after the Celtics. In particular note that Pierce had 8 seasons with WS of 10+, while Carmelo had 1.
And second: Pierce was a pretty good defender and put in a serious effort on that end. Carmelo was a poor defender, in large part because he expended little effort at it. And that lack of effort I think rubs off on other players. If the team star doesn’t work on that end, others tend to follow suit.
paul pierce was a horrid defender until garnett got there and was a perennial loser...
Quote:
that none of the knicks moves have been announced yet?
I just came here to post this as I was thinking the same thing. I’m not sure what else could be up though. Even if they wanted to explore a deal for RW (not my preference) it would destroy their credibility with players and agents to renege on their deals.
the only other thing is if they were working on a deal for westbrook is they are reworking their free agent deals to go longer tonspread out cap hit to preserve more cap space...
but otherwise i have no idea why nothing announced, they announced iggys deal
After two games, there are a large number of Knick fans who have decided that RJ will be a huge bust. Two games. I could go and list all the players who started poorly in the Summer League and ended up with big careers (Tim Duncan for one) but I don't think that will modify the doomsday thinking.
Kid turned 19 a month ago. Played a long college season and came into SL probably over-hyped and really just needs to settle down.
RJ was the top prospect in the USA and Canada from the time he was 14 (other than last year when Zion passed him) that doesn't just go away in two Summer League games.
Kid has the will, size, historic success to be a star.
That's my take. I'm not overreacting, but it's become obvious that Barrett is going to need some work. Hopefully Fiz can be the guy to get him there.
Is this what we should expect???
NO. It means nothing at this point everyone needs to slow down .
So what? Josh McRoberts was the #1 high school recruit in the country once upon a time. So were Brandon Jennings and OJ Mayo.
No question. Teams have been built and rebuilt five different times while the Knicks have faltered over the years.
Two summer league games and we know something? Ha.
Really really stupid-fan takes.
I still think Minny is the best place for him and they have a bad contract to send back too.
OKC without question. Better and more picks, better roster and Presti is light years ahead of Mills/Perry.
And no one is making final verdicts on Barrett. But are we not allowed to react to 2 summer league games?
I'd say the same but I don't know how much of an indictment on the Knicks it is vs how lucky OKC got with the desperation of LAC in the PG trade. While not quite the same, the Pelicans with winning the lottery and the Lakers desperation to get AD was just incredibly lucky. The Knicks never have such luck...
I still think Minny is the best place for him and they have a bad contract to send back too.
Detroit, Miami, Minnesota all make some sense for one reason or another given that the state of their rosters. It's hard to figure out what Westbrook will cost. I don't think it'll be nearly as much as the casual NBA fan thinks he's worth but is he a straight salary dump at this point with a protected first or two or does he cost more?
Yes, it's way too early to decide anything about RJ Barrett based off two SL games. These games have, however, demonstrated the shortcomings that some of us talked about before the draft, things that were apparent at Duke. Whether he can overcome those flaws and become a high end player, we'll see. It's absolutely possible that he will, but he's no can't-miss player.
Yes, it's way too early to decide anything about RJ Barrett based off two SL games. These games have, however, demonstrated the shortcomings that some of us talked about before the draft, things that were apparent at Duke. Whether he can overcome those flaws and become a high end player, we'll see. It's absolutely possible that he will, but he's no can't-miss player.
Would you have taken someone else at #3? Who?
Excellent question. I was on board with Garland, especially if they weren't sold on Kyrie/Kemba - we desperately need shooting, and Garland could provide it. Not sure I'd stake my reputation on it if I were on Perry's position though. Easy for me to say it from the peanut gallery.
RJ Barrett - ( New Window )
Lol this is gold,
Having said that, it's frightening to see total scrubs rejecting his pull-up 3 and attempted layups. He's just so methodical out there, there is no suddenness or change of direction to his moves. I still say he can be a smaller Paul Pierce, who wasn't a top notch athlete himself, but RJ's shot needs to get a lot better.
After the whirlwind free agency period, I got to read some of the articles and it surprised me how highly thought of SGA is. The Knicks brass definitely scouted him when they did Knox, I wonder how they thought of him. What's the difference between the two, is it instincts, guile, creativity? Knox is younger/bigger/longer, and on the same tier athletically, but SGA definitely is the better player. How did they miss that?
Yes, it's way too early to decide anything about RJ Barrett based off two SL games. These games have, however, demonstrated the shortcomings that some of us talked about before the draft, things that were apparent at Duke. Whether he can overcome those flaws and become a high end player, we'll see. It's absolutely possible that he will, but he's no can't-miss player.
Are there really deficiencies? Or is it simply lack of conditioning and work, at this stage of things?
I guess we'll see.
Having said that, it's frightening to see total scrubs rejecting his pull-up 3 and attempted layups. He's just so methodical out there, there is no suddenness or change of direction to his moves. I still say he can be a smaller Paul Pierce, who wasn't a top notch athlete himself, but RJ's shot needs to get a lot better.
After the whirlwind free agency period, I got to read some of the articles and it surprised me how highly thought of SGA is. The Knicks brass definitely scouted him when they did Knox, I wonder how they thought of him. What's the difference between the two, is it instincts, guile, creativity? Knox is younger/bigger/longer, and on the same tier athletically, but SGA definitely is the better player. How did they miss that?
There was a report the day of the draft that the Knicks were interested in SGA and liked him quite a bit. He was a late riser. He seemed duplicative with Frank to me at the time given their strengths and weaknesses. Of course, that's why you don't draft position based on need but it's not like he stood out relative to Knox at Kentucky. They seemed like similar caliber prospects (to me at least).
Those Denver teams were not weak teams he carried though, they were pretty damn deep. Billups was arguably more valuable than Melo during their peak as a team.
Paul Pierce was a far better defender than Melo and a better overall player because of it imo. Pierce was one of the main defenders on Kobe Bryant in an NBA Finals, he was also a guy who guarded LeBron a ton. Melo never had any chance at guarding those guys despite being younger, and his defense became a joke as he got older.
RJ Barrett isn't super explosive, but he's really crafty at getting to the rim. He's actually pretty similar to Paul Pierce in that sense. Pierce was was stronger while Barrett seems more fluid, but there are some similarities in their style. Pierce shot 60.6% from the FT line and 30.4% from the 3PT line as a Frosh and ended his college career at 35.5% /69.7%; he turned into a very good shooter in the NBA. Barrett (30.8%/66.5%) can still can develop into a similar caliber shooter, so I wouldn't write him off after a rough SL start.
Frank did seem to put on a little muscle but I wonder if this has to do with the fact that he keeps growing. He was ~2 inches or more taller last year than in his rookie year and he seems to have grown again. He looks a good 2 inches taller than Dotson in this photo from Sunday who measured 6'5.5 at the combine coming out in shoes.
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Those Denver teams were not weak teams he carried though, they were pretty damn deep. Billups was arguably more valuable than Melo during their peak as a team.
Paul Pierce was a far better defender than Melo and a better overall player because of it imo. Pierce was one of the main defenders on Kobe Bryant in an NBA Finals, he was also a guy who guarded LeBron a ton. Melo never had any chance at guarding those guys despite being younger, and his defense became a joke as he got older.
RJ Barrett isn't super explosive, but he's really crafty at getting to the rim. He's actually pretty similar to Paul Pierce in that sense. Pierce was was stronger while Barrett seems more fluid, but there are some similarities in their style. Pierce shot 60.6% from the FT line and 30.4% from the 3PT line as a Frosh and ended his college career at 35.5% /69.7%; he turned into a very good shooter in the NBA. Barrett (30.8%/66.5%) can still can develop into a similar caliber shooter, so I wouldn't write him off after a rough SL start.
Those Denver rosters were NEVER legit title contending supporting casts on paper. 2008, they won 54 games look at the roster and tell me you see "title contender". 2009 Iverson was gone, 53 wins, top 4 players by VORP... Nene, Melo, Billups and Chris Anderson. Melo never had a Garnett/Ray Allen/Rondo supporting cast or anything even close to it.
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it's just a body type issue but I'm kind of shocked how little physical change we have seen from Frank year 1 to now, and Knox and Mitch from 1 to 2.
Frank did seem to put on a little muscle but I wonder if this has to do with the fact that he keeps growing. He was ~2 inches or more taller last year than in his rookie year and he seems to have grown again. He looks a good 2 inches taller than Dotson in this photo from Sunday who measured 6'5.5 at the combine coming out in shoes. Link - ( New Window )
Video from yesterday, looks roughly the same to me going into season 3. A little thicker sure. Knox looks exactly the same.
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Scout: "I've watched RJ since he was in high school and he always plays extremely hard. And despite his shooting struggles, we've seen that in his first two games in Vegas. Look at his (10) rebounds from the other night. He has a great motor. That's why I think he'll reach his potential at this level - whatever that ultimately is. I'm not worried about him putting in the work to maximize his talent."
Scout: "He's gotten some decent looks from the perimeter but his shot doesn't have a ton of arc and seems heavy. Maybe some of that is nerves, but the looks have been there for him. He's also forced some shots and missed open teammates. You'd think those reads come with experience."
Scout: "He's looked a little stiff at times in these first two games. Is that because of nerves? Or is that what he is? I didn't see a lot of bouncy athleticism from him in the first two games. Maybe that was just a product of him being a bit nervous. I'm not sure."
Scout: "There's no reason to get caught up too much in Summer League in general, particularly after just two games. What you can't measure with these guys - what we don't see in the stands or on tape - is what's inside of them. Their heart. What drives them. Are they obsessed with being great? Or are they content with making NBA money? Does that make them complacent? You get the sense that RJ is the kind of person that's driven to be great. But that's one of those variables that we can't measure."
That said i dont love the "heart" and "hard worker" type stuff. I mean its def good, but thats not why you draft a kid at #3.
That said i dont love the "heart" and "hard worker" type stuff. I mean its def good, but thats not why you draft a kid at #3.
I dunno. I think that's an underrated factor in whether talent turns into a successful career. There are examples of guys who had ability but fell short or washed out due to a work ethic or bad mindset across many sports. Surely it's not why you draft a guy at whatever slot, and we can debate whether Barrett actually had the talent to be taken where he did, but a driven player who wants to put the work in is more likely to maximize on his ability even without superior talent or athleticism than a guy who coasts on athletic gifts.
For example the top 3 all have weaknesses. Even in a strong draft, all but a few are 'NBA ready' and still take time carve out an NBA role, aside from stardom. This is heavily based on work-ethic, motivation, bball IQ among other things. So while I agree, RJ's weaknesses from college were on display for 2 games, it's nonsense to make this into any real concern. If in 1-2 years he's still shown little improvement - and I do mean little as we're still not done w/ Knox - then it's time to worry. That too after we generally say year 3 tends to be the make or break moment. We also haven't seen his strengths fwiw - not like those just disappeared even if he adjusts slowly
And I am disappointed - Iggy played poorly game 1 but attacked, played hard w/ confidence - RJ the opposite. Still it's nothing to flip on yet