but with kadeem allen, trier and knox they are vets so to speak, i would have them try and get barrett some easy looks try to get him going then they look for theirs..
like Lebrun, Kobe and even Porzingas were successful early on due to their athletic ability. That’s not Barrett’s game. It will take him time to figure out the pro game, until then he will struggle.
but the 2nd straight game where I'm not seeing it from RJ. Slow decision making, poor defense, not turning the corner on guys to get to the rim.
Not great.
My biggest fear with RJ is he becomes a one dimensional player like Wiggins, someone who scores, but is inefficient and poor defense. But, I still think he will be good player. He doesn’t have the elite athleticism and shooting to become a star imo,
But it’s two games and the lack of athleticism and general speed/quickness by Barrett is concerning. These are not traits that improve.
So in the month since just about every team in the league having Barrett in the top three - hands down after watching him in college and in workouts - he now is unathletic and slow and will never get better? How do you think that he was able to fool so many people - seeing him play in person - into thinking he wasn't slow and unathletic? Appears he might have pulled off the biggest con since Redford and Newman in The Sting.
which I’d imagine would take some time to get right. He’s clearly pressing and isn’t sure what to do off-ball + seems to be overthinking what he should do when he drives. Certainly a cause for concern but hopefully with coaching and time he’ll be fine. It’s still only summer league, it’s not like we haven’t seen good players struggle before in their first few SL games!
Yup. Not sure why we need to watch the coach or whoever talking, w/ all the extra graphics making the game smaller. They should just say 'voice of' and cut back on dead balls if anything
And who is not by watching one game. The guy is slow footed and very average athleticism. I remember being psyched watching Knox and Mitch last year because of the athleticism. I am sure he will be fine, but I did not watch a ton of college this year and I thought we were getting a super athlete, I guess I am just surprised. Still can be a good player just not what I was expecting. If I was going to really overreact here would be my analysis In 2 games he has shown the following he can’t finish around the rim, he can’t make free throws, he can’t shoot threes, his passing is terrible, he turns the ball over a lot. The o my positive I have seen is he can rebound. The best thing Doris could say about him is that he looks more relaxed, yikes. Honestly the best way to describe after two games is even though he is 19 he looks like an old man on the court.
And who is not by watching one game. The guy is slow footed and very average athleticism. I remember being psyched watching Knox and Mitch last year because of the athleticism. I am sure he will be fine, but I did not watch a ton of college this year and I thought we were getting a super athlete, I guess I am just surprised. Still can be a good player just not what I was expecting. If I was going to really overreact here would be my analysis In 2 games he has shown the following he can’t finish around the rim, he can’t make free throws, he can’t shoot threes, his passing is terrible, he turns the ball over a lot. The o my positive I have seen is he can rebound. The best thing Doris could say about him is that he looks more relaxed, yikes. Honestly the best way to describe after two games is even though he is 19 he looks like an old man on the court.
He looked unathletic in all his Duke highlight videos. I despise Duke, so I never watched him play, but I watched his highlights and wanted no part of him. Big bust potential.
draw fouls (but miss his free throws), and get open for 3-pointers (but not hit them). But like I said, I'm not worrying about him yet. He looks like a young rookie — but he is a young rookie. I was just hoping he'd be more advanced.
And who is not by watching one game. The guy is slow footed and very average athleticism. I remember being psyched watching Knox and Mitch last year because of the athleticism. I am sure he will be fine, but I did not watch a ton of college this year and I thought we were getting a super athlete, I guess I am just surprised. Still can be a good player just not what I was expecting. If I was going to really overreact here would be my analysis In 2 games he has shown the following he can’t finish around the rim, he can’t make free throws, he can’t shoot threes, his passing is terrible, he turns the ball over a lot. The o my positive I have seen is he can rebound. The best thing Doris could say about him is that he looks more relaxed, yikes. Honestly the best way to describe after two games is even though he is 19 he looks like an old man on the court.
He looked unathletic in all his Duke highlight videos. I despise Duke, so I never watched him play, but I watched his highlights and wanted no part of him. Big bust potential.
I will give him this much. He looks much bigger than I expected. If he flames out as a guard, he may be able to play as a small forward.
I mean it's still too early to overreact, but you have to be a little Â
And this is who Barrett has always been. "But he set the ACC record for most points from a freshman." Well yeah, because he was taking like 30 shots every game. If he used more of his vision to pass it out instead of playing hero ball all the fucking time...
Of the draft, he is looks awful. I’m fine with missed shots, if they are good form and online. His shots aren’t even close
To be fair, he's working on changing his shot. If you do that, your shot is going to suck until you've mastered the changes. That should improve. So should the free throws. I'd like to see him finish, though.
RJ doesn’t. Honestly, I’m tired of every player we bring in having to transform his shooting mechanics to possibly reach average levels. Why not just find good shooters?
I have no reason to believe barrett won't come around but I was really hoping to see him show something these first couple games. The Iggy kid looks like he'll be fun to watch. The backup center too.
RE: I mean you have to remember it's Summer League Â
But I couldn't name you one guy on the Suns Summer League team. They weren't even playing their drafted rookies.
summer league is perfect for scrubs, it is a glorified pick up game..
Except you'd think that NBA players like Knox, Mitch, and Allen, and the #3 overall pick RJ Barrett would be able to run over that team.
why? the other players on the team are not going to defer to them, ifnit was a regular season game and they were your best players they would take the most shots..
in summer league you got guys trying to get noticed and it tskes away from everyone else..
The offense should have run through knox but he doesnt touch possession aftrr possession..
he gets his hands on the ball. It's like Al Harrington-esque. If you're driving and you're swallowed up by bigger guys, kick it out.
Honestly, that's one of the main differences between Barrett and a guy like Luka Doncic. Neither guy is a supreme athlete or an excellent shooter, but Doncic has the basketball IQ to pass it instead of taking contested shots...I mean Doncic does that too, but he can also bury them.
RE: RE: RE: If the players had guaranteed contracts Â
they would of run pick and roll with knox and mitch every single possession
? Look at the playing time. Knox, Mitch, Braz, Allen and Barrett played the majority of the minutes. Those guys will be on the roster in October.
i get that but when the scrubs come in they just jack up shots...
Also rj looks like he is trying to wait his turn there is no flow to the offense so when he finally shoots he is cold...
Man, the overreactions and then the excuses in response is nauseating. The man just has two awful games probably the first time in his life, happens to everyone. Lets see how he responds
I find Barrett's subpar athletic ability most concerning Â
I'm not overly concerned with missing shots in summer league. However his lack of explosion and inability to get separation should create some anxiety. He's not playing against NBA defenders and is still struggling with this. That's not going to suddenly improve against NBA talent, some of which will be elite NBA talent.
The NBA is going to have bigger more athletic defenders than he faced in college or the summer league. If he can't break people down with his dribble and lacks the athletic ability to blow past them instead...it's danger territory.
Fizdale is going be sleeping in a van down by the river Â
watch him in college. Look at his game against Virginia. 30 points NONE of which happened because of quickness or athleticism. At 18, it’s going to take him probably a good long while to figure out his game in the NBA environment. We all would like the #3 pick to be putting on a show from the get go, but only the superior athletes have done that. He’s got a lot to learn his path to stardom is do everything at a high level and hit the big shot to win games. He’s a hard worker that’s what’s important. Nothing he does in summer league means squat.
Just got back from a bad time zone for watching sports for a bit Â
haven’t watched him. But I’m a little scared too now.
I think from the comments / box scores he’s clearly pressing.
We don’t want a chucker no one does. He can pass. Hopefully this is a wake up call.
It’s not ideal that a team with 3 projected starters can’t do better than this in summer league.
I don’t mind sucking this year at all again. Definitely need more talent.
If we play the guys on short term contacts and end up picking like 10ish and Zinger looks like an uninjured star it is going to be unbelievably frustrating.
I don’t really mind that we missed out on an injured Durant and Kyrie. But seeing how this offseason played out. Not even going through with the Kawhi deal to sign a pu pu platter of limited upside guys.
This has the potential to be one of the most nauseating sports seasons for a team I have nothing but the lowest expectations for.
Our tolerance is at an all-time low, and it's understandable.
Not just the fans. The NY media is going to relish any opportunity to try to tear down Barrett’s career before it hardly has a chance to start. Kid better show some flashes or it’s going to get ugly.
Not to mention guys who just take a year or two to develop.
The sick thing is that if Barrett came out guns blazing, the same people would be poopooing it because Knox did that last year and then struggled in the regular season.
Can we just fucking relax? We're still mid rebuild. RJ is 19. He's far from a finished product and his finesse game makes sense to be a slower build.
RE: Knicks fans will be out for blood this year, you can tell already. Â
but again its summer league. He looks to be moving slow out there and that can be partially due to hesitation and not just the lack of athleticism. He is def forcing and just looks uncomfortable out there.
Iggy was a beast, not sure what his upside is, but he is fun at least.
Kadeem allen is a bum. Really dont want to see him on the team. They should have made Frank come back, lol.
but he still needs to be more aggressive. Like put the team on your back and carry them. Its summer league and he should do that but he goes through stretches where he just seems to go invincible. That said you can see the skill and upside with him. He can obviously stroke as shown from the last couple months of the season. And he is big and long enough to get to the rim, he just needs to do that more often so he learns to stay in control and not get all out of whack when the real games start and he is playing against better rim protectors.
he made some nice passes just did not lead to assists, you could see he is hesitant, it looksike he is ready to make a move and then he stops...he is used to getting the ball and being the focal point, it will be an adjustment..
Robinson needs to learn to stop going flr every block, you cant block anything and he is getting himself out of position..
but again its summer league. He looks to be moving slow out there and that can be partially due to hesitation and not just the lack of athleticism. He is def forcing and just looks uncomfortable out there.
Iggy was a beast, not sure what his upside is, but he is fun at least.
Kadeem allen is a bum. Really dont want to see him on the team. They should have made Frank come back, lol.
iggy looks like the type that other teams will hate...
read their takes. RJ has said it many if not uncountable times that he has worked very hard to get where he's at, meaning his game is predicated on reps. Learning by doing. Performing in a chaotic place like the summer league wont lend itself towards anything that will translate to the future.
He killed my Terps a few times and he is exactly that kind of guy that if he's playing against you he'll drive you nuts. He's still a kid so He'll have to develop in the NBA game but he's precisely the kind of guy you hate when he's playing against you and relishes the roll. Perfect 2nd rounder who can develop. The reactions to Barrett are comical at this point. Go back and look at his game logs when Zion played he was shooting like 15-18 shots a game. He'll be fine. I mean 2 summer league games? Holy overreactions bat man!
watch him in college. Look at his game against Virginia. 30 points NONE of which happened because of quickness or athleticism.
Well, since you're bringing it up....for most of that game, we had Ty Jerome on Barrett because Dre Hunter was on Zion. I love Ty Jerome, but he is two inches shorter than Barrett and not as quick. Barrett's an average NBA athlete, Ty is a below average NBA athlete. Ty couldn't handle him in the paint because he's smaller and slower - he was drafted for his elite shooting and playmaking, despite his lack of quickness. Not exactly a stirring testament to Barrett's athleticism.
But in actual NBA games, he will stand out as a massive defensive liability. He's slow as molasses and can't guard anyone with average NBA athleticism.
i mean most arent even playing but the ones playing arent doing well. Coby White has played ok i guess. Zion was 4-9 in his one half on like all dunks. Hunter stunk in his debut (guess he is a bum), Rui was ehh. I mean i agree the second straight dud scares me, but there is literally not a lottery pick playing well in summer league yet. These guys have a ton of pressure on them and they are playing their first "pro" ball.
I understand they had to wait for Kawhi, but it feels like they screwed up free agency again. Aside from Danny Green, not a lot of those guys fit and they are woefully thin. I would have thought they could have gotten better players and better fits with that cap space.
is that a few posters have already declared 19 year old Barrett a bust after two summer league games. I didn't even make it a quarter of the way through the thread before I gave up.
Here's the thing - you can't chalk up his slowness and lack of explosiveness to being 19 or it being Summer League. That's a very real problem that isn't going to go away. As an average at best athlete by league standards, he's going to have to max out his skill set to be a plus player, and he's got a long way to go to do that. He's much more of a project than his boosters cared to admit, and what we've seen so far (mediocre athleticism, horrid shooting, poor shot selection) shouldn't have come as a surprise, because they were all things he showed in college. It's just that the level of competition in college wasn't high enough to take advantage of his drawbacks.
I'm actually one of the seemingly rare members on BBI who seems to believe it's still too early to judge someone like Frank. I still hold out hope that Frank will turn into a solid 3 and D type player. That being said, so far to me RJ kind of reminds me of Frank but without Frank's passing or defense.
Secondly, people seem to be implying that RJ will start. Again, it's way too early to pass judgement on him, but if RJ continues playing like he has these last two games I absolutely do not believe he should be a started. If the Knicks truly want to have a culture of competition and earned minutes I don't believe they can gift a player a starting spot solely based on draft position.
i mean most arent even playing but the ones playing arent doing well. Coby White has played ok i guess. Zion was 4-9 in his one half on like all dunks. Hunter stunk in his debut (guess he is a bum), Rui was ehh. I mean i agree the second straight dud scares me, but there is literally not a lottery pick playing well in summer league yet. These guys have a ton of pressure on them and they are playing their first "pro" ball.
Tyler Herro has played well compared to other lottery picks. Gives Devin Booker vibe
The combination of mediocre athleticism, mediocre shooting ability Â
I'm actually one of the seemingly rare members on BBI who seems to believe it's still too early to judge someone like Frank. I still hold out hope that Frank will turn into a solid 3 and D type player. That being said, so far to me RJ kind of reminds me of Frank but without Frank's passing or defense.
Oh give me a break. RJ proved at the collegiate level he's a better passer than Frank, and is a way better rebounder. What everyone is forgetting is RJ's floor game. Its very solid. Yes his shooting and shot selection suffers at times, but he will get his teamtes involved. Frank a better playmaker? Thats about the best attempt at comedy I've seen all day.
I'm actually one of the seemingly rare members on BBI who seems to believe it's still too early to judge someone like Frank. I still hold out hope that Frank will turn into a solid 3 and D type player. That being said, so far to me RJ kind of reminds me of Frank but without Frank's passing or defense.
Secondly, people seem to be implying that RJ will start. Again, it's way too early to pass judgement on him, but if RJ continues playing like he has these last two games I absolutely do not believe he should be a started. If the Knicks truly want to have a culture of competition and earned minutes I don't believe they can gift a player a starting spot solely based on draft position.
Frank 29% from 3 this season, long, long way to go to believe he can be that.
i'm going to be pissed. that was my main issue with all the vet signings.
Everyone says you drafted the kid for his attitude / work ethic. He said he wanted to play in New York. Frankly he wasn't as there in his athleticism or polish in parts of his game but went 3 for those things. Some players that have higher skill levels and lack the "personality" yeah, you handle with kid gloves. But this kid you have to throw in the fire I think.(Not to say if he has 8 turnovers you don't pull him aside and chew him out a few times though)
I really don't mind him taking some shots trying to find his. (not an insane amount but 15-20 seems more than fine to me, more if he is having a good game)
In 2 games, his selection at #3 based on his athleticism and ability to score is reduced to him being a slow, unathletic slob. Sabonis in a much smaller frame!!
By the time the regular season starts, he'll be Greg Luzinski with the roundball......
Since you've chosen this as the hill to die on..... Â
I'm actually one of the seemingly rare members on BBI who seems to believe it's still too early to judge someone like Frank. I still hold out hope that Frank will turn into a solid 3 and D type player. That being said, so far to me RJ kind of reminds me of Frank but without Frank's passing or defense.
Oh give me a break. RJ proved at the collegiate level he's a better passer than Frank, and is a way better rebounder. What everyone is forgetting is RJ's floor game. Its very solid. Yes his shooting and shot selection suffers at times, but he will get his teammates involved. Frank a better playmaker? That's about the best attempt at comedy I've seen all day.
I actually thought that when Anak called Knox a magician because of the way he disappears was the best comedy of the day. As for the rest of it, it's clear that I don't watch as much basketball. I actually cannot tolerate the college game. If RJ showed better playmaking in college I am not in a position to disagree. My only point, which was partially in jest thanks for noticing, was that Frank and RJ move similarly, at least from my perspective, with what little I have seen so far.
He seems lost and very indecisive.
He definitely is in his own head instead of playing his game.
You can see he is looking to pass first even on drives, defensively he is always looking for the switch.
You see his skill on set plays that call his number.
IMO asking him to bring the ball up compounded it last night.
In contrast, Iggy is F#$k it, I am scoring and is on the edge of reckless taking to the rim.
RE: If RJ doesn't start (or play some of the highest minutes) Â
i'm going to be pissed. that was my main issue with all the vet signings.
Everyone says you drafted the kid for his attitude / work ethic. He said he wanted to play in New York. Frankly he wasn't as there in his athleticism or polish in parts of his game but went 3 for those things. Some players that have higher skill levels and lack the "personality" yeah, you handle with kid gloves. But this kid you have to throw in the fire I think.(Not to say if he has 8 turnovers you don't pull him aside and chew him out a few times though)
I really don't mind him taking some shots trying to find his. (not an insane amount but 15-20 seems more than fine to me, more if he is having a good game)
I actually think that the best approach for a young guy like RJ (this goes for Knox, Frank, DSJ, etc) is to make them earn their playing time at least early on in the season. IMO a big issue with their approach to Knox last year and his resulting struggles came as a result of giving him a long leash and not running any sort of offense. We've seen it time and time again in the NBA where players who come in as raw prospects with flaws need structure and need to play within the flow of a team's offense to get going and properly develop. I think it was Ben Falk (former Sixers and Blazers FO exec who runs cleaningtheglass.com) who made a similar point about Oladipo's early struggles with the Magic and becoming a late bloomer in Indiana. That's why i liked the approach the Knicks took this offseason.
Also, Barrett often gets compared to DeMar DeRozan who really struggled for the first couple of years of his career. Hopefully Barrett's development doesn't take as long but two summer league games is hardly something to freak out about. At least give it to the end of summer league before bringing out the pitchforks.
Do you need metrics to tell you if a guy is quick or not? Â
He's not particularly quick. He wasn't particularly quick all last year in Durham. You either have that or you don't.
And yes, he's at least as good an athlete as Doncic, but his skills aren't on Doncic's level at this point. I never said he COULDN'T make that kind of improvement, but that he's further away from developing into a plus player than his fans have been willing to admit. He was never a sure-thing star coming into the draft, no matter what his high school ranking was. He has glaring flaws right now, and middling athleticism is one that he probably isn't going to improve. He absolutely can improve his shot, shot selection, and defense but it will be a long, difficult process.
seems really weak on defense and just downright helpless sometimes. Still really young, I know.
I agree. Knox has a good outside shot, but isn't a good finisher. Both his shooting and finishing can improve, but the key to his success is improving his terrible defense.
I'm not making any proclamations off of 2 summer league games, but what you see has to be concerning. I'm not expecting a polished NBA all star, but I would like to see some flashes and his athleticism doesn't look good. Has he had any dunks in traffic yet? Or just any dunks? Some of those fast breaks where he didn't attack or just failed to go over any guys was what really stood out to me.
He also looks really big. Not fat, just tall/ big... much more of a forward than a wing/guard. Just my initial impressions...
that some of these top lottery picks are out of shape and probably haven't put as much time in the gym over the last 3 weeks. Since their last team workouts before the draft, I imagine that many of them have spent a lot of time getting their professional affairs in order, meeting with brand sponsors, business managers, team representatives, team sponsors, finding places to live, celebrating their dreams coming true, traveling on behalf of the NBA, etc.
RJ had some very obvious holes in his shooting game that were clear as day at Duke.
He's not a great catch and shooter, which really limits his effectiveness without the ball in his hand. He's really savvy without the ball, but if he's not a threat to knock down parameter shots, it's much easier to cheat defending him.
He's a much better iso than catch shooter. But that's going to really frustrate some fans if he's the primary ball handler -- he's got stretches where he's really looking to score first and despite being an excellent passer he's not always looking for the open guy.
I think he's going to be a really good scorer in the league, and if the Knicks fix his shot, he's going to be a really good player. I think the Harden comparisons are spot-on.
RJ had some very obvious holes in his shooting game that were clear as day at Duke.
He's not a great catch and shooter, which really limits his effectiveness without the ball in his hand. He's really savvy without the ball, but if he's not a threat to knock down parameter shots, it's much easier to cheat defending him.
He's a much better iso than catch shooter. But that's going to really frustrate some fans if he's the primary ball handler -- he's got stretches where he's really looking to score first and despite being an excellent passer he's not always looking for the open guy.
I think he's going to be a really good scorer in the league, and if the Knicks fix his shot, he's going to be a really good player. I think the Harden comparisons are spot-on.
He just changed his shooting mechanics so I think it's okay to not expect him to have that nailed down right now. Hopefully he keeps working on it and we see some strides come preseason.
I thinkni need to stop listening to sports radio and reading Â
that some of these top lottery picks are out of shape and probably haven't put as much time in the gym over the last 3 weeks. Since their last team workouts before the draft, I imagine that many of them have spent a lot of time getting their professional affairs in order, meeting with brand sponsors, business managers, team representatives, team sponsors, finding places to live, celebrating their dreams coming true, traveling on behalf of the NBA, etc.
This was part of the first broadcast against the Pelicans. They were making the point that Zion was out of shape because he's been on media and business tours since the draft. I'd imagine it's probably true for Barrett too. They haven't played basketball aside from workouts since the last college game.
"There's a lot we don't know about RJ Barrett, but there's something we do know. He hasn't been working on his game, or learning how to play this game. Not uncommon with super-hyped draft picks. They have been busy making appearances. Lower picks and others have been working. Hard
I'm not saying he's awful. It's more of an indictment of the process. I saw D Rose struggle so mightily in his first game because he had no clue how to play w ballscreens. The Bulls sat him every game after. I saw John Wall's first training camp. Totally unprepared.
I'm sure RJ has been on a whirlwind of trips. Didn't have to be super sharp for his workouts either. All that is over. The game demands incredible investments of time. I've heard he's a terrific kid and I'm sure he will learn from this. But learn he must. And work.
Everything looks awful, skill and craft wise. Attacked crowds. Looked slow. Shot is a mess. His size is a plus if indeed his skill game develops. He's very young. Tons of upside. He'd be wise to rest until Aug and then go to work
I don't know much about much. But when it comes to this, I do have some experience. I started that tweet acknowledging there isn't a lot we know about RJ. I wrote that intentionally. Not judging yet. Our elite guys tend to struggle in early July. That's the point.
Wiggins is a far more exceptional athlete. His failure is sickening. I am not telling anyone that RJ will or won't be great. I have not watched him enough to know. I was commenting on how he looks now, and how his command of what he should be able to do is absent."
Has no where near the athleticism of Wiggins. RJ athleticism reminds me of a little worse then Melo coming out of college. It’s athletic enough, but no where Benin the stratosphere of melo’s offensive capabilities. If Melo was a little more athletic he could have been one of the greats.
how do you guys confidently state what RJ's athleticism is? You really are making it sound like he's just a terrible player that can't shoot, guard or be able to get to the basket because he's too slow and unathletic.
It is really a lot of bunk. It's a lot like the bullshit said about Daniel Jones before he ever stepped on a practice field - his arm sucks. He's slow at decision-making, yada yada yada.
You are taking one of the attributes of why RJ was drafted and saying he simply doesn't have a level of athleticism capable of competing in the NBA.
Has no where near the athleticism of Wiggins. RJ athleticism reminds me of a little worse then Melo coming out of college. It’s athletic enough, but no where Benin the stratosphere of melo’s offensive capabilities. If Melo was a little more athletic he could have been one of the greats.
More athleticism would have been nice for Melo, but a lack of fitness, inclination to pass or defend made him what he was...a scorer but a losing or net negative player.
Has no where near the athleticism of Wiggins. RJ athleticism reminds me of a little worse then Melo coming out of college. It’s athletic enough, but no where Benin the stratosphere of melo’s offensive capabilities. If Melo was a little more athletic he could have been one of the greats.
I'm sorry but Melo's athleticism didn't hinder his career in the slightest. His own ego did him in.
almost unfathomable how disappointing Wiggins is given his physical gifts. His shot selection is bizarre. He takes a ton of long jumpers despite that being a low % shot. His defense is horrendous despite being a MONSTER athlete. I'd still likely swap Barrett for Wiggins if not for the contract (one of the worst in the NBA).
#19 all time in NBA scoring, 10 time all star, but a net negative player. Carried the Nuggets to the playoffs (and almost the finals) for his entire career. Carried the Knicks to relevance for a few seasons. Yet...a net negative player.
that Barrett could somehow become Carmelo Anthony and folks wouldn't sign up for that...I think i'd sign up for RJ Barrett becoming a Hall of Famer right now if i could.
almost unfathomable how disappointing Wiggins is given his physical gifts. His shot selection is bizarre. He takes a ton of long jumpers despite that being a low % shot. His defense is horrendous despite being a MONSTER athlete. I'd still likely swap Barrett for Wiggins if not for the contract (one of the worst in the NBA).
I STRONGLY disagree with this. There's enough of a sample size with Wiggins that I'll take a lottery ticket over what he is any day. He's passive, doesn't seem to work hard, and lackadaisical out there. Those things rarely change 5 years into a player's career.
The Nuggets made the playoffs 7 years in a row when he was on the team and made a run at the Lakers in the conference finals at the height of his career.
People like to think of Melo as his last 2-3 seasons on the Knicks. He was an all time great NBA player.
almost unfathomable how disappointing Wiggins is given his physical gifts. His shot selection is bizarre. He takes a ton of long jumpers despite that being a low % shot. His defense is horrendous despite being a MONSTER athlete. I'd still likely swap Barrett for Wiggins if not for the contract (one of the worst in the NBA).
I STRONGLY disagree with this. There's enough of a sample size with Wiggins that I'll take a lottery ticket over what he is any day. He's passive, doesn't seem to work hard, and lackadaisical out there. Those things rarely change 5 years into a player's career.
Wiggins has played for 4 coaches in 5 seasons. It's a toss up to me but Wiggins has the tools to still be special and despite disappointing still put up back to back 16.5 PER seasons at 20 and 21. I'm not overly confident through 400 games RJ Barrett is at 19.4 points 4.3 boards on 44/33% shooting.
almost unfathomable how disappointing Wiggins is given his physical gifts. His shot selection is bizarre. He takes a ton of long jumpers despite that being a low % shot. His defense is horrendous despite being a MONSTER athlete. I'd still likely swap Barrett for Wiggins if not for the contract (one of the worst in the NBA).
I STRONGLY disagree with this. There's enough of a sample size with Wiggins that I'll take a lottery ticket over what he is any day. He's passive, doesn't seem to work hard, and lackadaisical out there. Those things rarely change 5 years into a player's career.
Wiggins has played for 4 coaches in 5 seasons. It's a toss up to me but Wiggins has the tools to still be special and despite disappointing still put up back to back 16.5 PER seasons at 20 and 21. I'm not overly confident through 400 games RJ Barrett is at 19.4 points 4.3 boards on 44/33% shooting.
He's never posted a positive VORP or BPM season. I don't want that guy on my team. Barrett might wind up being a net negative too but at least there's the possibility that he won't be. PER doesn't do a good job of capturing defensive impact where Wiggins has been horrid.
The Wolves would absolutely fall all over themselves to trade Â
Yeah because of the awful contract which I already mentioned. Not because of the talent/skillset.
Well, sure it's the contract. But, I don't think anyone expects 24 year old RJ Barrett to be one of the lowest Hoops IQ players in the league. Even if Barrett's rate stats only get to Wiggins level efficiency, his rebounding and assist and non horrible D will make him better than Wiggins.
RE: RE: Remind me because I forget, did Carmelo ever Â
The Nuggets made the playoffs 7 years in a row when he was on the team and made a run at the Lakers in the conference finals at the height of his career.
People like to think of Melo as his last 2-3 seasons on the Knicks. He was an all time great NBA player.
Carmelo Anthony has the worst winning percentage for any player in NBA history with at least 50 playoff games. Anthony's teams have a 16-36 (.308) record during his playoff career with the Nuggets and Knicks.
52 playoff games in 17 years for the ultimate ME player...good riddance was what all of his teams and their fan bases said as he was shown the door.
Melo has become so underrated by fans and Knicks fans especially. When’s the next time the Knicks will have a player finish 3rd in MVP voting? I think we would all thrilled if Barrett became that or landed on any all nba teams ( which Melo did 6 times). Anyone expect Barrett to become a 10 time all star?
And Melo wasn’t a traditional high flying fast athlete. But he had an incredible first step and was a very strong player. Losing that first step years ago really effected his game.
Lastly, he’s one of the most beloved and well liked guys among nba players in the league. I’m not saying it’s the main reason the Knicks struck out, but don’t you think star players took notice of how the Knicks treated him in the end?
The Oklahoma City Thunder are trading forward Jerami Grant to the Denver Nuggets for a 2020 first-round pick -- a deal that saves the Thunder $39 million in salary and tax and stockpiles their sixth future first-round pick in recent days -- league sources told ESPN.
Melo has become so underrated by fans and Knicks fans especially. When’s the next time the Knicks will have a player finish 3rd in MVP voting? I think we would all thrilled if Barrett became that or landed on any all nba teams ( which Melo did 6 times). Anyone expect Barrett to become a 10 time all star?
And Melo wasn’t a traditional high flying fast athlete. But he had an incredible first step and was a very strong player. Losing that first step years ago really effected his game.
Lastly, he’s one of the most beloved and well liked guys among nba players in the league. I’m not saying it’s the main reason the Knicks struck out, but don’t you think star players took notice of how the Knicks treated him in the end?
They treated him how he deserved to be treated. He was a lazy and selfish player who cared about "getting his" and little else. He will go to the HOF, no doubt, but to people who know the game realize he's not the guy who will contribute much to wins.
that none of the knicks moves have been announced yet?
I just came here to post this as I was thinking the same thing. I’m not sure what else could be up though. Even if they wanted to explore a deal for RW (not my preference) it would destroy their credibility with players and agents to renege on their deals.
Melo has become so underrated by fans and Knicks fans especially. When’s the next time the Knicks will have a player finish 3rd in MVP voting? I think we would all thrilled if Barrett became that or landed on any all nba teams ( which Melo did 6 times). Anyone expect Barrett to become a 10 time all star?
And Melo wasn’t a traditional high flying fast athlete. But he had an incredible first step and was a very strong player. Losing that first step years ago really effected his game.
Lastly, he’s one of the most beloved and well liked guys among nba players in the league. I’m not saying it’s the main reason the Knicks struck out, but don’t you think star players took notice of how the Knicks treated him in the end?
They treated him how he deserved to be treated. He was a lazy and selfish player who cared about "getting his" and little else. He will go to the HOF, no doubt, but to people who know the game realize he's not the guy who will contribute much to wins.
do you realize how bad the nuggets wre before melo got there?
that none of the knicks moves have been announced yet?
I just came here to post this as I was thinking the same thing. I’m not sure what else could be up though. Even if they wanted to explore a deal for RW (not my preference) it would destroy their credibility with players and agents to renege on their deals.
unless they are trying to work sign and trades i dont get why they are not done
a huge Melo guy but he also had bad luck roster wise.
Player A) 19.7 points 5.6 boards 3.5 assists on 44.5% shooting, 37% from 3, 19.7 PER, .157 WS/48
Player B) 24.0 points 6.5 boards 3.0 assists on 44.9% shooting, 35% from 3, 20.3 PER, .127 WS/48
One is seen as a winning all-time great who won a ring playing with 2 other HOFers and the other is a "loser" who mostly played with crap.
Player A is Paul Pierce. It’s not an unreasonable comparison, but Pierce is a superior player.
First, his numbers there are dragged down by lower production of his last few seasons, mostly after the Celtics. In particular note that Pierce had 8 seasons with WS of 10+, while Carmelo had 1.
And second: Pierce was a pretty good defender and put in a serious effort on that end. Carmelo was a poor defender, in large part because he expended little effort at it. And that lack of effort I think rubs off on other players. If the team star doesn’t work on that end, others tend to follow suit.
a huge Melo guy but he also had bad luck roster wise.
Player A) 19.7 points 5.6 boards 3.5 assists on 44.5% shooting, 37% from 3, 19.7 PER, .157 WS/48
Player B) 24.0 points 6.5 boards 3.0 assists on 44.9% shooting, 35% from 3, 20.3 PER, .127 WS/48
One is seen as a winning all-time great who won a ring playing with 2 other HOFers and the other is a "loser" who mostly played with crap.
Player A is Paul Pierce. It’s not an unreasonable comparison, but Pierce is a superior player.
First, his numbers there are dragged down by lower production of his last few seasons, mostly after the Celtics. In particular note that Pierce had 8 seasons with WS of 10+, while Carmelo had 1.
And second: Pierce was a pretty good defender and put in a serious effort on that end. Carmelo was a poor defender, in large part because he expended little effort at it. And that lack of effort I think rubs off on other players. If the team star doesn’t work on that end, others tend to follow suit.
paul pierce was a horrid defender until garnett got there and was a perennial loser...
that none of the knicks moves have been announced yet?
I just came here to post this as I was thinking the same thing. I’m not sure what else could be up though. Even if they wanted to explore a deal for RW (not my preference) it would destroy their credibility with players and agents to renege on their deals.
the only other thing is if they were working on a deal for westbrook is they are reworking their free agent deals to go longer tonspread out cap hit to preserve more cap space...
but otherwise i have no idea why nothing announced, they announced iggys deal
Even if you believe there's still more talent to dig through Â
with wiggins, look at the contracts he's signed in the NBA while coasting on his athleticism and presumed talent. What incentive does a guy who hasn't been a hard worker yet have to become a hard worker after signing 100+ million dollar contracts?
After two games, there are a large number of Knick fans who have decided that RJ will be a huge bust. Two games. I could go and list all the players who started poorly in the Summer League and ended up with big careers (Tim Duncan for one) but I don't think that will modify the doomsday thinking.
Kid turned 19 a month ago. Played a long college season and came into SL probably over-hyped and really just needs to settle down.
RJ was the top prospect in the USA and Canada from the time he was 14 (other than last year when Zion passed him) that doesn't just go away in two Summer League games.
Kid has the will, size, historic success to be a star.
due respect but when it comes to a guy like Tim Duncan EVERYONE knew he'd be a superstar + Summer League isn't meant for a traditional big (even back then). Only true morons would have freaked out over Duncan starting slow. We had 4 seasons at Wake to tell us.. he was a monster.
Fans are just reacting to the games, not overreacting. Â
People are overreacting to the reaction, if that makes sense. Even during the game telecast, Doris Burke - who I like - was constantly saying "step back from the ledge, Knicks fans," as if we're a bunch of imbeciles. I'm kinda tired of it, frankly. RJ has some holes in his game that we've all known about, and they've been on display these first two games. If we're supposed to ignore these games they wouldn't be airing primetime on ESPN.
who has played poorly in his two Summer League games so far. Obviously everyone wants him to come in and play well, or even dominate, but he's not a finished product. So hopefully he'll work hard to better himself and be the player he has the potential to be.
That's my take. I'm not overreacting, but it's become obvious that Barrett is going to need some work. Hopefully Fiz can be the guy to get him there.
I thought Zion looked out of shape in his first game Â
Should be interesting now that everyone's spent their cap space - this is why the big names usually go first and start the dominoes, but Kawhi is a different cat. Now it's a mad scramble.
RJ was the top prospect in the USA and Canada from the time he was 14 (other than last year when Zion passed him) that doesn't just go away in two Summer League games.
So what? Josh McRoberts was the #1 high school recruit in the country once upon a time. So were Brandon Jennings and OJ Mayo.
That's largely up to him. What a lot of people are saying is that he has a lot to improve on if he's to be the player some people were making him out to be.
totally agree with you on Duncan. He just stood out as an example and I didn't want to do a ton of research on the players who performed poorly in the Summer League and still had terrific careers. A more recent example is Trae Young. Atlanta passed on Doncic for this guy and he had a really poor shooting start in the SL and it looked like the Hawks screwed up. But Young know looks like one of the top young players in the league.
Honestly? I don't think Trae Young was all that impressive Â
He's not bad, but he didn't shoot particularly well (and not just to start the season - he had a hot February but regressed back to his earlier performance in March and April). Excellent passer/playmaker, atrocious defender. If he can tighten up his deep shooting and be at least average defensively, then he can be a real star, but so far he's a pretty incomplete player.
is a top 3 seed first... OKC or NYK? I'm going Thunder
I'd say the same but I don't know how much of an indictment on the Knicks it is vs how lucky OKC got with the desperation of LAC in the PG trade. While not quite the same, the Pelicans with winning the lottery and the Lakers desperation to get AD was just incredibly lucky. The Knicks never have such luck...
I know a few teams could use him but don’t have the assets. Everyone is saying Detroit.... but are they trading Jackson and a shit load of picks?
I still think Minny is the best place for him and they have a bad contract to send back too.
Detroit, Miami, Minnesota all make some sense for one reason or another given that the state of their rosters. It's hard to figure out what Westbrook will cost. I don't think it'll be nearly as much as the casual NBA fan thinks he's worth but is he a straight salary dump at this point with a protected first or two or does he cost more?
all the stock On athleticism. Early on, it can partially cover up for deficiencies and flaws. When I watched Barrett at Duke, he appeared to me to be a smooth player who thinks the game and gets the most out of his athleticism. He doesn’t succeed because of it. Where we ARE on the same page, is it will take awhile, maybe quite awhile for him to reach his full potential. He’s barely 19, he may not get to that point until 22 or 23 years old. For frustrated Knick fans, that’s a long time to wait. It is what it is. They are going to play him at big guard, but as he grows into his body, he may be better suited for the 3 too.
Think of it this way - how did Barrett succeed in college? It certainly wasn't because of his jump shot, which stunk, or efficient offensive play. It was because he was terrific at getting to the basket and finishing. Which is a good thing....but you have to take into consideration that most of the players who guarded him in college were smaller and inferior athletes. It's going to be much harder for him to dominate that way in the NBA.
Yes, it's way too early to decide anything about RJ Barrett based off two SL games. These games have, however, demonstrated the shortcomings that some of us talked about before the draft, things that were apparent at Duke. Whether he can overcome those flaws and become a high end player, we'll see. It's absolutely possible that he will, but he's no can't-miss player.
Think of it this way - how did Barrett succeed in college? It certainly wasn't because of his jump shot, which stunk, or efficient offensive play. It was because he was terrific at getting to the basket and finishing. Which is a good thing....but you have to take into consideration that most of the players who guarded him in college were smaller and inferior athletes. It's going to be much harder for him to dominate that way in the NBA.
Yes, it's way too early to decide anything about RJ Barrett based off two SL games. These games have, however, demonstrated the shortcomings that some of us talked about before the draft, things that were apparent at Duke. Whether he can overcome those flaws and become a high end player, we'll see. It's absolutely possible that he will, but he's no can't-miss player.
Excellent question. I was on board with Garland, especially if they weren't sold on Kyrie/Kemba - we desperately need shooting, and Garland could provide it. Not sure I'd stake my reputation on it if I were on Perry's position though. Easy for me to say it from the peanut gallery.
groove....but definitely can't write RJ off despite how bad he's looked. I did warm up to him prior to the draft knowing he'd be the pick, and frankly no other GM in the league, maybe except Jerry West, would pass him up even if they felt someone else had a higher upside.
Having said that, it's frightening to see total scrubs rejecting his pull-up 3 and attempted layups. He's just so methodical out there, there is no suddenness or change of direction to his moves. I still say he can be a smaller Paul Pierce, who wasn't a top notch athlete himself, but RJ's shot needs to get a lot better.
After the whirlwind free agency period, I got to read some of the articles and it surprised me how highly thought of SGA is. The Knicks brass definitely scouted him when they did Knox, I wonder how they thought of him. What's the difference between the two, is it instincts, guile, creativity? Knox is younger/bigger/longer, and on the same tier athletically, but SGA definitely is the better player. How did they miss that?
Think of it this way - how did Barrett succeed in college? It certainly wasn't because of his jump shot, which stunk, or efficient offensive play. It was because he was terrific at getting to the basket and finishing. Which is a good thing....but you have to take into consideration that most of the players who guarded him in college were smaller and inferior athletes. It's going to be much harder for him to dominate that way in the NBA.
Yes, it's way too early to decide anything about RJ Barrett based off two SL games. These games have, however, demonstrated the shortcomings that some of us talked about before the draft, things that were apparent at Duke. Whether he can overcome those flaws and become a high end player, we'll see. It's absolutely possible that he will, but he's no can't-miss player.
Are there really deficiencies? Or is it simply lack of conditioning and work, at this stage of things?
I guess we'll see.
His shot is absolutely a deficiency at this time Â
It stunk at Duke and it stinks in Summer League. With him, you can't even hang your hat on a good FT% as a reason to expect his shot to improve, because he's bad at the stripe, too.
RE: I am sure some here are still waiting for Frank to find his offensive Â
groove....but definitely can't write RJ off despite how bad he's looked. I did warm up to him prior to the draft knowing he'd be the pick, and frankly no other GM in the league, maybe except Jerry West, would pass him up even if they felt someone else had a higher upside.
Having said that, it's frightening to see total scrubs rejecting his pull-up 3 and attempted layups. He's just so methodical out there, there is no suddenness or change of direction to his moves. I still say he can be a smaller Paul Pierce, who wasn't a top notch athlete himself, but RJ's shot needs to get a lot better.
After the whirlwind free agency period, I got to read some of the articles and it surprised me how highly thought of SGA is. The Knicks brass definitely scouted him when they did Knox, I wonder how they thought of him. What's the difference between the two, is it instincts, guile, creativity? Knox is younger/bigger/longer, and on the same tier athletically, but SGA definitely is the better player. How did they miss that?
There was a report the day of the draft that the Knicks were interested in SGA and liked him quite a bit. He was a late riser. He seemed duplicative with Frank to me at the time given their strengths and weaknesses. Of course, that's why you don't draft position based on need but it's not like he stood out relative to Knox at Kentucky. They seemed like similar caliber prospects (to me at least).
Young Melo was a hell of an athlete in certain areas. His first step was devastating which is why he used so many jab steps in the first place, before it became a meme in his later years. He exploded off the ground early on in Denver too, he was super aggressive and dunked on people often.
Those Denver teams were not weak teams he carried though, they were pretty damn deep. Billups was arguably more valuable than Melo during their peak as a team.
Paul Pierce was a far better defender than Melo and a better overall player because of it imo. Pierce was one of the main defenders on Kobe Bryant in an NBA Finals, he was also a guy who guarded LeBron a ton. Melo never had any chance at guarding those guys despite being younger, and his defense became a joke as he got older.
RJ Barrett isn't super explosive, but he's really crafty at getting to the rim. He's actually pretty similar to Paul Pierce in that sense. Pierce was was stronger while Barrett seems more fluid, but there are some similarities in their style. Pierce shot 60.6% from the FT line and 30.4% from the 3PT line as a Frosh and ended his college career at 35.5% /69.7%; he turned into a very good shooter in the NBA. Barrett (30.8%/66.5%) can still can develop into a similar caliber shooter, so I wouldn't write him off after a rough SL start.
it's just a body type issue but I'm kind of shocked how little physical change we have seen from Frank year 1 to now, and Knox and Mitch from 1 to 2.
Frank did seem to put on a little muscle but I wonder if this has to do with the fact that he keeps growing. He was ~2 inches or more taller last year than in his rookie year and he seems to have grown again. He looks a good 2 inches taller than Dotson in this photo from Sunday who measured 6'5.5 at the combine coming out in shoes. Link - ( New Window )
Young Melo was a hell of an athlete in certain areas. His first step was devastating which is why he used so many jab steps in the first place, before it became a meme in his later years. He exploded off the ground early on in Denver too, he was super aggressive and dunked on people often.
Those Denver teams were not weak teams he carried though, they were pretty damn deep. Billups was arguably more valuable than Melo during their peak as a team.
Paul Pierce was a far better defender than Melo and a better overall player because of it imo. Pierce was one of the main defenders on Kobe Bryant in an NBA Finals, he was also a guy who guarded LeBron a ton. Melo never had any chance at guarding those guys despite being younger, and his defense became a joke as he got older.
RJ Barrett isn't super explosive, but he's really crafty at getting to the rim. He's actually pretty similar to Paul Pierce in that sense. Pierce was was stronger while Barrett seems more fluid, but there are some similarities in their style. Pierce shot 60.6% from the FT line and 30.4% from the 3PT line as a Frosh and ended his college career at 35.5% /69.7%; he turned into a very good shooter in the NBA. Barrett (30.8%/66.5%) can still can develop into a similar caliber shooter, so I wouldn't write him off after a rough SL start.
Those Denver rosters were NEVER legit title contending supporting casts on paper. 2008, they won 54 games look at the roster and tell me you see "title contender". 2009 Iverson was gone, 53 wins, top 4 players by VORP... Nene, Melo, Billups and Chris Anderson. Melo never had a Garnett/Ray Allen/Rondo supporting cast or anything even close to it. Link - ( New Window )
comparisons sake Denver had 4 players with +2.0 VORP on the 2008 team, 3 on the 2009 team, the Championship celtics had 4 players 2.5+ VORP, Perkins 2.4 and Allen/Rondo both posting 4.3
it's just a body type issue but I'm kind of shocked how little physical change we have seen from Frank year 1 to now, and Knox and Mitch from 1 to 2.
Frank did seem to put on a little muscle but I wonder if this has to do with the fact that he keeps growing. He was ~2 inches or more taller last year than in his rookie year and he seems to have grown again. He looks a good 2 inches taller than Dotson in this photo from Sunday who measured 6'5.5 at the combine coming out in shoes. Link - ( New Window )
Video from yesterday, looks roughly the same to me going into season 3. A little thicker sure. Knox looks exactly the same. Link - ( New Window )
No question. I just read some try to downplay those Nuggets squads saying Melo carried them, which wasn’t really the case. Billups was right there with Melo in terms of value. Nene/K-Mart are two guys who were great defenders who also provided solid offensive value, both of those guys are underrated. JR was a great bench scorer during that time in the 6th man of the year mix. Birdman was a great backup rim protector during those years. That’s a squad.
Scout: "I haven't seen him play fast or really blow off the floor on a drive yet. He hasn't looked explosive off the dribble. Maybe some of that is due to a layoff between his college games and Summer League games. But he wasn't overly fast at Duke. He did well in bullying opponents with his size and strength at that level. Can that translate well to the NBA? Or will he need to make adjustments? That's another reason to not get overly excited about two Summer League games. He's going to gain strength and can get faster over time."
Scout: "I've watched RJ since he was in high school and he always plays extremely hard. And despite his shooting struggles, we've seen that in his first two games in Vegas. Look at his (10) rebounds from the other night. He has a great motor. That's why I think he'll reach his potential at this level - whatever that ultimately is. I'm not worried about him putting in the work to maximize his talent."
Scout: "He's gotten some decent looks from the perimeter but his shot doesn't have a ton of arc and seems heavy. Maybe some of that is nerves, but the looks have been there for him. He's also forced some shots and missed open teammates. You'd think those reads come with experience."
Scout: "He's looked a little stiff at times in these first two games. Is that because of nerves? Or is that what he is? I didn't see a lot of bouncy athleticism from him in the first two games. Maybe that was just a product of him being a bit nervous. I'm not sure."
Scout: "There's no reason to get caught up too much in Summer League in general, particularly after just two games. What you can't measure with these guys - what we don't see in the stands or on tape - is what's inside of them. Their heart. What drives them. Are they obsessed with being great? Or are they content with making NBA money? Does that make them complacent? You get the sense that RJ is the kind of person that's driven to be great. But that's one of those variables that we can't measure."
That said i dont love the "heart" and "hard worker" type stuff. I mean its def good, but thats not why you draft a kid at #3.
I dunno. I think that's an underrated factor in whether talent turns into a successful career. There are examples of guys who had ability but fell short or washed out due to a work ethic or bad mindset across many sports. Surely it's not why you draft a guy at whatever slot, and we can debate whether Barrett actually had the talent to be taken where he did, but a driven player who wants to put the work in is more likely to maximize on his ability even without superior talent or athleticism than a guy who coasts on athletic gifts.
Fans & media undervalue the importance of what happens AFTER draft Â
tho it's clearly a ton more of an influence than the pick itself
For example the top 3 all have weaknesses. Even in a strong draft, all but a few are 'NBA ready' and still take time carve out an NBA role, aside from stardom. This is heavily based on work-ethic, motivation, bball IQ among other things. So while I agree, RJ's weaknesses from college were on display for 2 games, it's nonsense to make this into any real concern. If in 1-2 years he's still shown little improvement - and I do mean little as we're still not done w/ Knox - then it's time to worry. That too after we generally say year 3 tends to be the make or break moment. We also haven't seen his strengths fwiw - not like those just disappeared even if he adjusts slowly
And I am disappointed - Iggy played poorly game 1 but attacked, played hard w/ confidence - RJ the opposite. Still it's nothing to flip on yet
Not sure he could play much worse, to be honest. Hopefully Knox and Trier continue to look good.
Not great.
Not great.
My biggest fear with RJ is he becomes a one dimensional player like Wiggins, someone who scores, but is inefficient and poor defense. But, I still think he will be good player. He doesn’t have the elite athleticism and shooting to become a star imo,
His release seems different to my untrained eye. Just seems much smoother. Maybe he's just being more decisive but it's nice to see.
On queue, KK for 3. Pretty shot. And again!
On the subject, there's a post / Berman article saying DSJ revamped the J this summer. We'll see, but that would be a great development for his game
NYP Berman - ( New Window )
Iggy & Tyler Cavanaugh w/ the big halves
Iggy 15 on 6-7, 2-2 from deep
Cavanaugh was active, 3-4 FG, 4-6 FTs
they are going through two a days, every shot is short, his legs could be a little dead as well..
plus you can tell he is trying to hard, he is starting to aim shots
So in the month since just about every team in the league having Barrett in the top three - hands down after watching him in college and in workouts - he now is unathletic and slow and will never get better? How do you think that he was able to fool so many people - seeing him play in person - into thinking he wasn't slow and unathletic? Appears he might have pulled off the biggest con since Redford and Newman in The Sting.
Yup. Not sure why we need to watch the coach or whoever talking, w/ all the extra graphics making the game smaller. They should just say 'voice of' and cut back on dead balls if anything
... and I'm deciding it's too soon to to be worried about RJ Barrett. Though he has given us some things to worry about.
He looked unathletic in all his Duke highlight videos. I despise Duke, so I never watched him play, but I watched his highlights and wanted no part of him. Big bust potential.
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And who is not by watching one game. The guy is slow footed and very average athleticism. I remember being psyched watching Knox and Mitch last year because of the athleticism. I am sure he will be fine, but I did not watch a ton of college this year and I thought we were getting a super athlete, I guess I am just surprised. Still can be a good player just not what I was expecting. If I was going to really overreact here would be my analysis In 2 games he has shown the following he can’t finish around the rim, he can’t make free throws, he can’t shoot threes, his passing is terrible, he turns the ball over a lot. The o my positive I have seen is he can rebound. The best thing Doris could say about him is that he looks more relaxed, yikes. Honestly the best way to describe after two games is even though he is 19 he looks like an old man on the court.
He looked unathletic in all his Duke highlight videos. I despise Duke, so I never watched him play, but I watched his highlights and wanted no part of him. Big bust potential.
I will give him this much. He looks much bigger than I expected. If he flames out as a guard, he may be able to play as a small forward.
And this is who Barrett has always been. "But he set the ACC record for most points from a freshman." Well yeah, because he was taking like 30 shots every game. If he used more of his vision to pass it out instead of playing hero ball all the fucking time...
As predictable as the day is long.
for a 25 year old he is getting schooled...
And pay him 45M a year? No thanks.
It is summer league..
Yes, but Barrett, FWIW, is more than a year younger than Braz
There are plenty that were on par if not worse. Recency bias.
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This has to be the worst summer league start for any top 3 guy ever. Especially for a guy who was projected to be #1.
There are plenty that were on par if not worse. Recency bias.
Worse? He just followed a 4-18 game with a 3-15 game and has 8 turnovers.
Haven't seen worse than that.
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In comment 14494159 GMEN46 said:
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This has to be the worst summer league start for any top 3 guy ever. Especially for a guy who was projected to be #1.
There are plenty that were on par if not worse. Recency bias.
Worse? He just followed a 4-18 game with a 3-15 game and has 8 turnovers.
Haven't seen worse than that.
kevin durant 12 points 5 for 15 1 rebound 1 assist
Worse? He just followed a 4-18 game with a 3-15 game and has 8 turnovers.
Haven't seen worse than that.
kevin durant 12 points 5 for 15 1 rebound 1 assist
Quote:
In comment 14494159 GMEN46 said:
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This has to be the worst summer league start for any top 3 guy ever. Especially for a guy who was projected to be #1.
There are plenty that were on par if not worse. Recency bias.
Worse? He just followed a 4-18 game with a 3-15 game and has 8 turnovers.
Haven't seen worse than that.
Barrett has more turnovers (10) than made FG’s and assists combined (9)
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In comment 14494182 Strahan91 said:
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In comment 14494159 GMEN46 said:
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This has to be the worst summer league start for any top 3 guy ever. Especially for a guy who was projected to be #1.
There are plenty that were on par if not worse. Recency bias.
Worse? He just followed a 4-18 game with a 3-15 game and has 8 turnovers.
Haven't seen worse than that.
kevin durant 12 points 5 for 15 1 rebound 1 assist
Almost as bad. Not worse.
2. fixing his shot, always gets worse before it gets better..
3. there is no flow in summer league games, hard to get into a rhythm, at duke he always had the ball in his hands..
4. they are doing 2 a days every day, could have some tired legs..
summer league is perfect for scrubs, it is a glorified pick up game..
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But I couldn't name you one guy on the Suns Summer League team. They weren't even playing their drafted rookies.
summer league is perfect for scrubs, it is a glorified pick up game..
Except you'd think that NBA players like Knox, Mitch, and Allen, and the #3 overall pick RJ Barrett would be able to run over that team.
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In comment 14494193 Anakim said:
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But I couldn't name you one guy on the Suns Summer League team. They weren't even playing their drafted rookies.
summer league is perfect for scrubs, it is a glorified pick up game..
Except you'd think that NBA players like Knox, Mitch, and Allen, and the #3 overall pick RJ Barrett would be able to run over that team.
why? the other players on the team are not going to defer to them, ifnit was a regular season game and they were your best players they would take the most shots..
in summer league you got guys trying to get noticed and it tskes away from everyone else..
The offense should have run through knox but he doesnt touch possession aftrr possession..
summer league is very hard to watch
? Look at the playing time. Knox, Mitch, Braz, Allen and Barrett played the majority of the minutes. Those guys will be on the roster in October.
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they would of run pick and roll with knox and mitch every single possession
? Look at the playing time. Knox, Mitch, Braz, Allen and Barrett played the majority of the minutes. Those guys will be on the roster in October.
i get that but when the scrubs come in they just jack up shots...
Also rj looks like he is trying to wait his turn there is no flow to the offense so when he finally shoots he is cold...
Honestly, that's one of the main differences between Barrett and a guy like Luka Doncic. Neither guy is a supreme athlete or an excellent shooter, but Doncic has the basketball IQ to pass it instead of taking contested shots...I mean Doncic does that too, but he can also bury them.
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In comment 14494203 nygiants16 said:
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they would of run pick and roll with knox and mitch every single possession
? Look at the playing time. Knox, Mitch, Braz, Allen and Barrett played the majority of the minutes. Those guys will be on the roster in October.
i get that but when the scrubs come in they just jack up shots...
Also rj looks like he is trying to wait his turn there is no flow to the offense so when he finally shoots he is cold...
Man, the overreactions and then the excuses in response is nauseating. The man just has two awful games probably the first time in his life, happens to everyone. Lets see how he responds
The NBA is going to have bigger more athletic defenders than he faced in college or the summer league. If he can't break people down with his dribble and lacks the athletic ability to blow past them instead...it's danger territory.
I think from the comments / box scores he’s clearly pressing.
We don’t want a chucker no one does. He can pass. Hopefully this is a wake up call.
It’s not ideal that a team with 3 projected starters can’t do better than this in summer league.
I don’t mind sucking this year at all again. Definitely need more talent.
If we play the guys on short term contacts and end up picking like 10ish and Zinger looks like an uninjured star it is going to be unbelievably frustrating.
I don’t really mind that we missed out on an injured Durant and Kyrie. But seeing how this offseason played out. Not even going through with the Kawhi deal to sign a pu pu platter of limited upside guys.
This has the potential to be one of the most nauseating sports seasons for a team I have nothing but the lowest expectations for.
Not to mention guys who just take a year or two to develop.
The sick thing is that if Barrett came out guns blazing, the same people would be poopooing it because Knox did that last year and then struggled in the regular season.
Can we just fucking relax? We're still mid rebuild. RJ is 19. He's far from a finished product and his finesse game makes sense to be a slower build.
Just wait until KP is averaging 25/10....
I get it’s summer league but Barrett’s lack of explosion/speed/quickness and inability to attack the rim is concerning.
Iggy was a beast, not sure what his upside is, but he is fun at least.
Kadeem allen is a bum. Really dont want to see him on the team. They should have made Frank come back, lol.
Robinson needs to learn to stop going flr every block, you cant block anything and he is getting himself out of position..
3-8 from 3
5-6 ft
8 boards
Link - ( New Window )
Iggy was a beast, not sure what his upside is, but he is fun at least.
Kadeem allen is a bum. Really dont want to see him on the team. They should have made Frank come back, lol.
iggy looks like the type that other teams will hate...
Well, since you're bringing it up....for most of that game, we had Ty Jerome on Barrett because Dre Hunter was on Zion. I love Ty Jerome, but he is two inches shorter than Barrett and not as quick. Barrett's an average NBA athlete, Ty is a below average NBA athlete. Ty couldn't handle him in the paint because he's smaller and slower - he was drafted for his elite shooting and playmaking, despite his lack of quickness. Not exactly a stirring testament to Barrett's athleticism.
Cmon, man - it doesn't take years of trained scouting experience to be able to see if a guy has explosion or not.
Secondly, people seem to be implying that RJ will start. Again, it's way too early to pass judgement on him, but if RJ continues playing like he has these last two games I absolutely do not believe he should be a started. If the Knicks truly want to have a culture of competition and earned minutes I don't believe they can gift a player a starting spot solely based on draft position.
Tyler Herro has played well compared to other lottery picks. Gives Devin Booker vibe
Oh give me a break. RJ proved at the collegiate level he's a better passer than Frank, and is a way better rebounder. What everyone is forgetting is RJ's floor game. Its very solid. Yes his shooting and shot selection suffers at times, but he will get his teamtes involved. Frank a better playmaker? Thats about the best attempt at comedy I've seen all day.
Secondly, people seem to be implying that RJ will start. Again, it's way too early to pass judgement on him, but if RJ continues playing like he has these last two games I absolutely do not believe he should be a started. If the Knicks truly want to have a culture of competition and earned minutes I don't believe they can gift a player a starting spot solely based on draft position.
Frank 29% from 3 this season, long, long way to go to believe he can be that.
Everyone says you drafted the kid for his attitude / work ethic. He said he wanted to play in New York. Frankly he wasn't as there in his athleticism or polish in parts of his game but went 3 for those things. Some players that have higher skill levels and lack the "personality" yeah, you handle with kid gloves. But this kid you have to throw in the fire I think.(Not to say if he has 8 turnovers you don't pull him aside and chew him out a few times though)
I really don't mind him taking some shots trying to find his. (not an insane amount but 15-20 seems more than fine to me, more if he is having a good game)
In 2 games, his selection at #3 based on his athleticism and ability to score is reduced to him being a slow, unathletic slob. Sabonis in a much smaller frame!!
By the time the regular season starts, he'll be Greg Luzinski with the roundball......
He's not even 20 and we are projecting exactly what his athleticism is going to be and using very defined metrics like "explosion".....
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I'm actually one of the seemingly rare members on BBI who seems to believe it's still too early to judge someone like Frank. I still hold out hope that Frank will turn into a solid 3 and D type player. That being said, so far to me RJ kind of reminds me of Frank but without Frank's passing or defense.
Oh give me a break. RJ proved at the collegiate level he's a better passer than Frank, and is a way better rebounder. What everyone is forgetting is RJ's floor game. Its very solid. Yes his shooting and shot selection suffers at times, but he will get his teammates involved. Frank a better playmaker? That's about the best attempt at comedy I've seen all day.
I actually thought that when Anak called Knox a magician because of the way he disappears was the best comedy of the day. As for the rest of it, it's clear that I don't watch as much basketball. I actually cannot tolerate the college game. If RJ showed better playmaking in college I am not in a position to disagree. My only point, which was partially in jest thanks for noticing, was that Frank and RJ move similarly, at least from my perspective, with what little I have seen so far.
He definitely is in his own head instead of playing his game.
You can see he is looking to pass first even on drives, defensively he is always looking for the switch.
You see his skill on set plays that call his number.
IMO asking him to bring the ball up compounded it last night.
In contrast, Iggy is F#$k it, I am scoring and is on the edge of reckless taking to the rim.
Everyone says you drafted the kid for his attitude / work ethic. He said he wanted to play in New York. Frankly he wasn't as there in his athleticism or polish in parts of his game but went 3 for those things. Some players that have higher skill levels and lack the "personality" yeah, you handle with kid gloves. But this kid you have to throw in the fire I think.(Not to say if he has 8 turnovers you don't pull him aside and chew him out a few times though)
I really don't mind him taking some shots trying to find his. (not an insane amount but 15-20 seems more than fine to me, more if he is having a good game)
I actually think that the best approach for a young guy like RJ (this goes for Knox, Frank, DSJ, etc) is to make them earn their playing time at least early on in the season. IMO a big issue with their approach to Knox last year and his resulting struggles came as a result of giving him a long leash and not running any sort of offense. We've seen it time and time again in the NBA where players who come in as raw prospects with flaws need structure and need to play within the flow of a team's offense to get going and properly develop. I think it was Ben Falk (former Sixers and Blazers FO exec who runs cleaningtheglass.com) who made a similar point about Oladipo's early struggles with the Magic and becoming a late bloomer in Indiana. That's why i liked the approach the Knicks took this offseason.
Also, Barrett often gets compared to DeMar DeRozan who really struggled for the first couple of years of his career. Hopefully Barrett's development doesn't take as long but two summer league games is hardly something to freak out about. At least give it to the end of summer league before bringing out the pitchforks.
And yes, he's at least as good an athlete as Doncic, but his skills aren't on Doncic's level at this point. I never said he COULDN'T make that kind of improvement, but that he's further away from developing into a plus player than his fans have been willing to admit. He was never a sure-thing star coming into the draft, no matter what his high school ranking was. He has glaring flaws right now, and middling athleticism is one that he probably isn't going to improve. He absolutely can improve his shot, shot selection, and defense but it will be a long, difficult process.
I agree. Knox has a good outside shot, but isn't a good finisher. Both his shooting and finishing can improve, but the key to his success is improving his terrible defense.
He also looks really big. Not fat, just tall/ big... much more of a forward than a wing/guard. Just my initial impressions...
He's not a great catch and shooter, which really limits his effectiveness without the ball in his hand. He's really savvy without the ball, but if he's not a threat to knock down parameter shots, it's much easier to cheat defending him.
He's a much better iso than catch shooter. But that's going to really frustrate some fans if he's the primary ball handler -- he's got stretches where he's really looking to score first and despite being an excellent passer he's not always looking for the open guy.
I think he's going to be a really good scorer in the league, and if the Knicks fix his shot, he's going to be a really good player. I think the Harden comparisons are spot-on.
He's not a great catch and shooter, which really limits his effectiveness without the ball in his hand. He's really savvy without the ball, but if he's not a threat to knock down parameter shots, it's much easier to cheat defending him.
He's a much better iso than catch shooter. But that's going to really frustrate some fans if he's the primary ball handler -- he's got stretches where he's really looking to score first and despite being an excellent passer he's not always looking for the open guy.
I think he's going to be a really good scorer in the league, and if the Knicks fix his shot, he's going to be a really good player. I think the Harden comparisons are spot-on.
He just changed his shooting mechanics so I think it's okay to not expect him to have that nailed down right now. Hopefully he keeps working on it and we see some strides come preseason.
Some of the takes are just moronic..i am taking a break from posting..
This was part of the first broadcast against the Pelicans. They were making the point that Zion was out of shape because he's been on media and business tours since the draft. I'd imagine it's probably true for Barrett too. They haven't played basketball aside from workouts since the last college game.
I'm not saying he's awful. It's more of an indictment of the process. I saw D Rose struggle so mightily in his first game because he had no clue how to play w ballscreens. The Bulls sat him every game after. I saw John Wall's first training camp. Totally unprepared.
I'm sure RJ has been on a whirlwind of trips. Didn't have to be super sharp for his workouts either. All that is over. The game demands incredible investments of time. I've heard he's a terrific kid and I'm sure he will learn from this. But learn he must. And work.
Everything looks awful, skill and craft wise. Attacked crowds. Looked slow. Shot is a mess. His size is a plus if indeed his skill game develops. He's very young. Tons of upside. He'd be wise to rest until Aug and then go to work
I don't know much about much. But when it comes to this, I do have some experience. I started that tweet acknowledging there isn't a lot we know about RJ. I wrote that intentionally. Not judging yet. Our elite guys tend to struggle in early July. That's the point.
Wiggins is a far more exceptional athlete. His failure is sickening. I am not telling anyone that RJ will or won't be great. I have not watched him enough to know. I was commenting on how he looks now, and how his command of what he should be able to do is absent."
It is really a lot of bunk. It's a lot like the bullshit said about Daniel Jones before he ever stepped on a practice field - his arm sucks. He's slow at decision-making, yada yada yada.
You are taking one of the attributes of why RJ was drafted and saying he simply doesn't have a level of athleticism capable of competing in the NBA.
It is patently absurd.
More athleticism would have been nice for Melo, but a lack of fitness, inclination to pass or defend made him what he was...a scorer but a losing or net negative player.
I'm sorry but Melo's athleticism didn't hinder his career in the slightest. His own ego did him in.
I STRONGLY disagree with this. There's enough of a sample size with Wiggins that I'll take a lottery ticket over what he is any day. He's passive, doesn't seem to work hard, and lackadaisical out there. Those things rarely change 5 years into a player's career.
Don't panic, RJ will be OK.
Player A) 19.7 points 5.6 boards 3.5 assists on 44.5% shooting, 37% from 3, 19.7 PER, .157 WS/48
Player B) 24.0 points 6.5 boards 3.0 assists on 44.9% shooting, 35% from 3, 20.3 PER, .127 WS/48
One is seen as a winning all-time great who won a ring playing with 2 other HOFers and the other is a "loser" who mostly played with crap.
Don't panic, RJ will be OK.
The Nuggets made the playoffs 7 years in a row when he was on the team and made a run at the Lakers in the conference finals at the height of his career.
People like to think of Melo as his last 2-3 seasons on the Knicks. He was an all time great NBA player.
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almost unfathomable how disappointing Wiggins is given his physical gifts. His shot selection is bizarre. He takes a ton of long jumpers despite that being a low % shot. His defense is horrendous despite being a MONSTER athlete. I'd still likely swap Barrett for Wiggins if not for the contract (one of the worst in the NBA).
I STRONGLY disagree with this. There's enough of a sample size with Wiggins that I'll take a lottery ticket over what he is any day. He's passive, doesn't seem to work hard, and lackadaisical out there. Those things rarely change 5 years into a player's career.
Wiggins has played for 4 coaches in 5 seasons. It's a toss up to me but Wiggins has the tools to still be special and despite disappointing still put up back to back 16.5 PER seasons at 20 and 21. I'm not overly confident through 400 games RJ Barrett is at 19.4 points 4.3 boards on 44/33% shooting.
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In comment 14494515 DanMetroMan said:
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almost unfathomable how disappointing Wiggins is given his physical gifts. His shot selection is bizarre. He takes a ton of long jumpers despite that being a low % shot. His defense is horrendous despite being a MONSTER athlete. I'd still likely swap Barrett for Wiggins if not for the contract (one of the worst in the NBA).
I STRONGLY disagree with this. There's enough of a sample size with Wiggins that I'll take a lottery ticket over what he is any day. He's passive, doesn't seem to work hard, and lackadaisical out there. Those things rarely change 5 years into a player's career.
Wiggins has played for 4 coaches in 5 seasons. It's a toss up to me but Wiggins has the tools to still be special and despite disappointing still put up back to back 16.5 PER seasons at 20 and 21. I'm not overly confident through 400 games RJ Barrett is at 19.4 points 4.3 boards on 44/33% shooting.
He's never posted a positive VORP or BPM season. I don't want that guy on my team. Barrett might wind up being a net negative too but at least there's the possibility that he won't be. PER doesn't do a good job of capturing defensive impact where Wiggins has been horrid.
Yeah because of the awful contract which I already mentioned. Not because of the talent/skillset.
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Wiggins for Barrett. Shockingly bad take.
Yeah because of the awful contract which I already mentioned. Not because of the talent/skillset.
Well, sure it's the contract. But, I don't think anyone expects 24 year old RJ Barrett to be one of the lowest Hoops IQ players in the league. Even if Barrett's rate stats only get to Wiggins level efficiency, his rebounding and assist and non horrible D will make him better than Wiggins.
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bring out the best in other teammates?
Don't panic, RJ will be OK.
The Nuggets made the playoffs 7 years in a row when he was on the team and made a run at the Lakers in the conference finals at the height of his career.
People like to think of Melo as his last 2-3 seasons on the Knicks. He was an all time great NBA player.
Carmelo Anthony has the worst winning percentage for any player in NBA history with at least 50 playoff games. Anthony's teams have a 16-36 (.308) record during his playoff career with the Nuggets and Knicks.
52 playoff games in 17 years for the ultimate ME player...good riddance was what all of his teams and their fan bases said as he was shown the door.
And Melo wasn’t a traditional high flying fast athlete. But he had an incredible first step and was a very strong player. Losing that first step years ago really effected his game.
Lastly, he’s one of the most beloved and well liked guys among nba players in the league. I’m not saying it’s the main reason the Knicks struck out, but don’t you think star players took notice of how the Knicks treated him in the end?
And Melo wasn’t a traditional high flying fast athlete. But he had an incredible first step and was a very strong player. Losing that first step years ago really effected his game.
Lastly, he’s one of the most beloved and well liked guys among nba players in the league. I’m not saying it’s the main reason the Knicks struck out, but don’t you think star players took notice of how the Knicks treated him in the end?
They treated him how he deserved to be treated. He was a lazy and selfish player who cared about "getting his" and little else. He will go to the HOF, no doubt, but to people who know the game realize he's not the guy who will contribute much to wins.
To act as if he didn't translate to wins there is just moronic.
And shitting on a HoF player is really stupid.
Hell, you can say some of the same things about Wilt. And it would be equally as dumb.
I just came here to post this as I was thinking the same thing. I’m not sure what else could be up though. Even if they wanted to explore a deal for RW (not my preference) it would destroy their credibility with players and agents to renege on their deals.
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Melo has become so underrated by fans and Knicks fans especially. When’s the next time the Knicks will have a player finish 3rd in MVP voting? I think we would all thrilled if Barrett became that or landed on any all nba teams ( which Melo did 6 times). Anyone expect Barrett to become a 10 time all star?
And Melo wasn’t a traditional high flying fast athlete. But he had an incredible first step and was a very strong player. Losing that first step years ago really effected his game.
Lastly, he’s one of the most beloved and well liked guys among nba players in the league. I’m not saying it’s the main reason the Knicks struck out, but don’t you think star players took notice of how the Knicks treated him in the end?
They treated him how he deserved to be treated. He was a lazy and selfish player who cared about "getting his" and little else. He will go to the HOF, no doubt, but to people who know the game realize he's not the guy who will contribute much to wins.
do you realize how bad the nuggets wre before melo got there?
To act as if he didn't translate to wins there is just moronic.
And shitting on a HoF player is really stupid.
Hell, you can say some of the same things about Wilt. And it would be equally as dumb.
The guy played in 52 playoff games in 17 years.
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that none of the knicks moves have been announced yet?
I just came here to post this as I was thinking the same thing. I’m not sure what else could be up though. Even if they wanted to explore a deal for RW (not my preference) it would destroy their credibility with players and agents to renege on their deals.
unless they are trying to work sign and trades i dont get why they are not done
Player A) 19.7 points 5.6 boards 3.5 assists on 44.5% shooting, 37% from 3, 19.7 PER, .157 WS/48
Player B) 24.0 points 6.5 boards 3.0 assists on 44.9% shooting, 35% from 3, 20.3 PER, .127 WS/48
One is seen as a winning all-time great who won a ring playing with 2 other HOFers and the other is a "loser" who mostly played with crap.
Player A is Paul Pierce. It’s not an unreasonable comparison, but Pierce is a superior player.
First, his numbers there are dragged down by lower production of his last few seasons, mostly after the Celtics. In particular note that Pierce had 8 seasons with WS of 10+, while Carmelo had 1.
And second: Pierce was a pretty good defender and put in a serious effort on that end. Carmelo was a poor defender, in large part because he expended little effort at it. And that lack of effort I think rubs off on other players. If the team star doesn’t work on that end, others tend to follow suit.
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a huge Melo guy but he also had bad luck roster wise.
Player A) 19.7 points 5.6 boards 3.5 assists on 44.5% shooting, 37% from 3, 19.7 PER, .157 WS/48
Player B) 24.0 points 6.5 boards 3.0 assists on 44.9% shooting, 35% from 3, 20.3 PER, .127 WS/48
One is seen as a winning all-time great who won a ring playing with 2 other HOFers and the other is a "loser" who mostly played with crap.
Player A is Paul Pierce. It’s not an unreasonable comparison, but Pierce is a superior player.
First, his numbers there are dragged down by lower production of his last few seasons, mostly after the Celtics. In particular note that Pierce had 8 seasons with WS of 10+, while Carmelo had 1.
And second: Pierce was a pretty good defender and put in a serious effort on that end. Carmelo was a poor defender, in large part because he expended little effort at it. And that lack of effort I think rubs off on other players. If the team star doesn’t work on that end, others tend to follow suit.
paul pierce was a horrid defender until garnett got there and was a perennial loser...
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that none of the knicks moves have been announced yet?
I just came here to post this as I was thinking the same thing. I’m not sure what else could be up though. Even if they wanted to explore a deal for RW (not my preference) it would destroy their credibility with players and agents to renege on their deals.
the only other thing is if they were working on a deal for westbrook is they are reworking their free agent deals to go longer tonspread out cap hit to preserve more cap space...
but otherwise i have no idea why nothing announced, they announced iggys deal
After two games, there are a large number of Knick fans who have decided that RJ will be a huge bust. Two games. I could go and list all the players who started poorly in the Summer League and ended up with big careers (Tim Duncan for one) but I don't think that will modify the doomsday thinking.
Kid turned 19 a month ago. Played a long college season and came into SL probably over-hyped and really just needs to settle down.
RJ was the top prospect in the USA and Canada from the time he was 14 (other than last year when Zion passed him) that doesn't just go away in two Summer League games.
Kid has the will, size, historic success to be a star.
That's my take. I'm not overreacting, but it's become obvious that Barrett is going to need some work. Hopefully Fiz can be the guy to get him there.
Is this what we should expect???
NO. It means nothing at this point everyone needs to slow down .
So what? Josh McRoberts was the #1 high school recruit in the country once upon a time. So were Brandon Jennings and OJ Mayo.
No question. Teams have been built and rebuilt five different times while the Knicks have faltered over the years.
Two summer league games and we know something? Ha.
Really really stupid-fan takes.
I still think Minny is the best place for him and they have a bad contract to send back too.
OKC without question. Better and more picks, better roster and Presti is light years ahead of Mills/Perry.
And no one is making final verdicts on Barrett. But are we not allowed to react to 2 summer league games?
I'd say the same but I don't know how much of an indictment on the Knicks it is vs how lucky OKC got with the desperation of LAC in the PG trade. While not quite the same, the Pelicans with winning the lottery and the Lakers desperation to get AD was just incredibly lucky. The Knicks never have such luck...
I still think Minny is the best place for him and they have a bad contract to send back too.
Detroit, Miami, Minnesota all make some sense for one reason or another given that the state of their rosters. It's hard to figure out what Westbrook will cost. I don't think it'll be nearly as much as the casual NBA fan thinks he's worth but is he a straight salary dump at this point with a protected first or two or does he cost more?
Yes, it's way too early to decide anything about RJ Barrett based off two SL games. These games have, however, demonstrated the shortcomings that some of us talked about before the draft, things that were apparent at Duke. Whether he can overcome those flaws and become a high end player, we'll see. It's absolutely possible that he will, but he's no can't-miss player.
Yes, it's way too early to decide anything about RJ Barrett based off two SL games. These games have, however, demonstrated the shortcomings that some of us talked about before the draft, things that were apparent at Duke. Whether he can overcome those flaws and become a high end player, we'll see. It's absolutely possible that he will, but he's no can't-miss player.
Would you have taken someone else at #3? Who?
Excellent question. I was on board with Garland, especially if they weren't sold on Kyrie/Kemba - we desperately need shooting, and Garland could provide it. Not sure I'd stake my reputation on it if I were on Perry's position though. Easy for me to say it from the peanut gallery.
RJ Barrett - ( New Window )
Lol this is gold,
Having said that, it's frightening to see total scrubs rejecting his pull-up 3 and attempted layups. He's just so methodical out there, there is no suddenness or change of direction to his moves. I still say he can be a smaller Paul Pierce, who wasn't a top notch athlete himself, but RJ's shot needs to get a lot better.
After the whirlwind free agency period, I got to read some of the articles and it surprised me how highly thought of SGA is. The Knicks brass definitely scouted him when they did Knox, I wonder how they thought of him. What's the difference between the two, is it instincts, guile, creativity? Knox is younger/bigger/longer, and on the same tier athletically, but SGA definitely is the better player. How did they miss that?
Yes, it's way too early to decide anything about RJ Barrett based off two SL games. These games have, however, demonstrated the shortcomings that some of us talked about before the draft, things that were apparent at Duke. Whether he can overcome those flaws and become a high end player, we'll see. It's absolutely possible that he will, but he's no can't-miss player.
Are there really deficiencies? Or is it simply lack of conditioning and work, at this stage of things?
I guess we'll see.
Having said that, it's frightening to see total scrubs rejecting his pull-up 3 and attempted layups. He's just so methodical out there, there is no suddenness or change of direction to his moves. I still say he can be a smaller Paul Pierce, who wasn't a top notch athlete himself, but RJ's shot needs to get a lot better.
After the whirlwind free agency period, I got to read some of the articles and it surprised me how highly thought of SGA is. The Knicks brass definitely scouted him when they did Knox, I wonder how they thought of him. What's the difference between the two, is it instincts, guile, creativity? Knox is younger/bigger/longer, and on the same tier athletically, but SGA definitely is the better player. How did they miss that?
There was a report the day of the draft that the Knicks were interested in SGA and liked him quite a bit. He was a late riser. He seemed duplicative with Frank to me at the time given their strengths and weaknesses. Of course, that's why you don't draft position based on need but it's not like he stood out relative to Knox at Kentucky. They seemed like similar caliber prospects (to me at least).
Those Denver teams were not weak teams he carried though, they were pretty damn deep. Billups was arguably more valuable than Melo during their peak as a team.
Paul Pierce was a far better defender than Melo and a better overall player because of it imo. Pierce was one of the main defenders on Kobe Bryant in an NBA Finals, he was also a guy who guarded LeBron a ton. Melo never had any chance at guarding those guys despite being younger, and his defense became a joke as he got older.
RJ Barrett isn't super explosive, but he's really crafty at getting to the rim. He's actually pretty similar to Paul Pierce in that sense. Pierce was was stronger while Barrett seems more fluid, but there are some similarities in their style. Pierce shot 60.6% from the FT line and 30.4% from the 3PT line as a Frosh and ended his college career at 35.5% /69.7%; he turned into a very good shooter in the NBA. Barrett (30.8%/66.5%) can still can develop into a similar caliber shooter, so I wouldn't write him off after a rough SL start.
Frank did seem to put on a little muscle but I wonder if this has to do with the fact that he keeps growing. He was ~2 inches or more taller last year than in his rookie year and he seems to have grown again. He looks a good 2 inches taller than Dotson in this photo from Sunday who measured 6'5.5 at the combine coming out in shoes.
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Those Denver teams were not weak teams he carried though, they were pretty damn deep. Billups was arguably more valuable than Melo during their peak as a team.
Paul Pierce was a far better defender than Melo and a better overall player because of it imo. Pierce was one of the main defenders on Kobe Bryant in an NBA Finals, he was also a guy who guarded LeBron a ton. Melo never had any chance at guarding those guys despite being younger, and his defense became a joke as he got older.
RJ Barrett isn't super explosive, but he's really crafty at getting to the rim. He's actually pretty similar to Paul Pierce in that sense. Pierce was was stronger while Barrett seems more fluid, but there are some similarities in their style. Pierce shot 60.6% from the FT line and 30.4% from the 3PT line as a Frosh and ended his college career at 35.5% /69.7%; he turned into a very good shooter in the NBA. Barrett (30.8%/66.5%) can still can develop into a similar caliber shooter, so I wouldn't write him off after a rough SL start.
Those Denver rosters were NEVER legit title contending supporting casts on paper. 2008, they won 54 games look at the roster and tell me you see "title contender". 2009 Iverson was gone, 53 wins, top 4 players by VORP... Nene, Melo, Billups and Chris Anderson. Melo never had a Garnett/Ray Allen/Rondo supporting cast or anything even close to it.
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it's just a body type issue but I'm kind of shocked how little physical change we have seen from Frank year 1 to now, and Knox and Mitch from 1 to 2.
Frank did seem to put on a little muscle but I wonder if this has to do with the fact that he keeps growing. He was ~2 inches or more taller last year than in his rookie year and he seems to have grown again. He looks a good 2 inches taller than Dotson in this photo from Sunday who measured 6'5.5 at the combine coming out in shoes. Link - ( New Window )
Video from yesterday, looks roughly the same to me going into season 3. A little thicker sure. Knox looks exactly the same.
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Scout: "I've watched RJ since he was in high school and he always plays extremely hard. And despite his shooting struggles, we've seen that in his first two games in Vegas. Look at his (10) rebounds from the other night. He has a great motor. That's why I think he'll reach his potential at this level - whatever that ultimately is. I'm not worried about him putting in the work to maximize his talent."
Scout: "He's gotten some decent looks from the perimeter but his shot doesn't have a ton of arc and seems heavy. Maybe some of that is nerves, but the looks have been there for him. He's also forced some shots and missed open teammates. You'd think those reads come with experience."
Scout: "He's looked a little stiff at times in these first two games. Is that because of nerves? Or is that what he is? I didn't see a lot of bouncy athleticism from him in the first two games. Maybe that was just a product of him being a bit nervous. I'm not sure."
Scout: "There's no reason to get caught up too much in Summer League in general, particularly after just two games. What you can't measure with these guys - what we don't see in the stands or on tape - is what's inside of them. Their heart. What drives them. Are they obsessed with being great? Or are they content with making NBA money? Does that make them complacent? You get the sense that RJ is the kind of person that's driven to be great. But that's one of those variables that we can't measure."
That said i dont love the "heart" and "hard worker" type stuff. I mean its def good, but thats not why you draft a kid at #3.
That said i dont love the "heart" and "hard worker" type stuff. I mean its def good, but thats not why you draft a kid at #3.
I dunno. I think that's an underrated factor in whether talent turns into a successful career. There are examples of guys who had ability but fell short or washed out due to a work ethic or bad mindset across many sports. Surely it's not why you draft a guy at whatever slot, and we can debate whether Barrett actually had the talent to be taken where he did, but a driven player who wants to put the work in is more likely to maximize on his ability even without superior talent or athleticism than a guy who coasts on athletic gifts.
For example the top 3 all have weaknesses. Even in a strong draft, all but a few are 'NBA ready' and still take time carve out an NBA role, aside from stardom. This is heavily based on work-ethic, motivation, bball IQ among other things. So while I agree, RJ's weaknesses from college were on display for 2 games, it's nonsense to make this into any real concern. If in 1-2 years he's still shown little improvement - and I do mean little as we're still not done w/ Knox - then it's time to worry. That too after we generally say year 3 tends to be the make or break moment. We also haven't seen his strengths fwiw - not like those just disappeared even if he adjusts slowly
And I am disappointed - Iggy played poorly game 1 but attacked, played hard w/ confidence - RJ the opposite. Still it's nothing to flip on yet