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Giants 2019 Positional Breakdown: Defensive Backs

Eric from BBI : Admin : 7/9/2019 9:32 am
FYI...


Giants 2019 Positional Breakdown: Defensive Backs - ( New Window )
Another  
AcidTest : 7/9/2019 10:08 am : link
position group with a lot of questions, but at least it seems like a talented group. The Giants have certainly invested a lot in this position group through the OBJ trade, FA, and the draft. I am optimistic, but also expect miscommunication mistakes since many of these players are rookies, and very few have played with each other. We definitely need them to play well since our pass rush is an even bigger unknown.
It's a young group, so it's reasonable to expect some hiccups by at  
Ira : 7/9/2019 10:13 am : link
least some of the rookies early on, with improvement later in the season. But my biggest concern is with Antoine Bethea. Players that old often decline quickly and he was cut by Arizona.
Very, very exicited about our secondary...  
M.S. : 7/9/2019 11:05 am : link

...and all the young talent! Saw a lot of Georgia football and Deandre Baker is just so good as so many things!

I have very high expectations for Jabrill Peppers. At Michigan they asked him to play so many positions he came into the NFL with little real experience at just one position. I think he will continue to make a lot of progress with the Giants! Wonderful athlete!
I'm super excited about  
Dnew15 : 7/9/2019 11:53 am : link
the youth and energy this defensive backfield should have - this is clearly the positional group with the most upside.

I gotta disagree with you on your LC take - he will haunt the Giants more than any other FA they let go in recent memory and they have to play him twice a year - that is going to suck.

That defensive backfield would really be promising with Pepper and Collins for the future paired with the corners they now have on the roster.

RE: I'm super excited about  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 7/9/2019 12:08 pm : link
In comment 14495137 Dnew15 said:
Quote:
the youth and energy this defensive backfield should have - this is clearly the positional group with the most upside.

I gotta disagree with you on your LC take - he will haunt the Giants more than any other FA they let go in recent memory and they have to play him twice a year - that is going to suck.

That defensive backfield would really be promising with Pepper and Collins for the future paired with the corners they now have on the roster.


No, matching a 6-year, $84 million contract is what would have haunted us for years.

Good luck Collins trying to cover Saquon.
It's a very young group.  
Klaatu : 7/9/2019 12:46 pm : link
Even with Bethea (35), Jenkins (31), and Thomas (29), the average age of Eric's ten DB's is still only 25.5. Subtract those three and it drops to 22.8. So, some growing pains are to be expected, but not only because of their youth. They still have to learn how to play as a unit (and play within Bettcher's defense). That's going to take some time. How much time remains to be seen.
......  
Klaatu : 7/9/2019 1:12 pm : link
Quote:
Depth at safety is a concern. Michael Thomas is a solid reserve/special teams type who also provides a good locker room presence. But it would be great if one of the young safeties came out of nowhere to surprise.


I thought the Giants might look to upgrade FS next year in free agency, but the cost may be prohibitive. The draft is certainly a possibility, but I wouldn't prioritize FS over OL, ER, or WR.
No question  
PaulN : 7/9/2019 4:14 pm : link
About the growing pains, will they overcome the growing pains with enough wins, that is the big concern. I like the approach and plan by Gettleman, big defensive line tough to run against, young, athletic defensive backs with the potential to press cover. They need a couple guys to step up and provide a pass rush, if that happens it will really the young backfield. Next off season will be about adding that pass rusher and that young offensive tackle before even thinking about a wideout, the Pats do fine without Beckham, and so will the Giants, the most over rated and over talked about position in football. The can add another weapon to the offense later in the draft.
CB'S  
Payasdaddy : 7/9/2019 7:11 pm : link
I am very much looking forward to cb competition (especially Beal and baker) and even the possibility of J love being a LT solution at safety in addition to slot.
Maybe Ballentine can develop too would be a nice bonus if JJ a cap casualty in 2020 or a mid season trade (depending on offer and our record)
RE: RE: I'm super excited about  
WillVAB : 7/9/2019 7:59 pm : link
In comment 14495157 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 14495137 Dnew15 said:


Quote:


the youth and energy this defensive backfield should have - this is clearly the positional group with the most upside.

I gotta disagree with you on your LC take - he will haunt the Giants more than any other FA they let go in recent memory and they have to play him twice a year - that is going to suck.

That defensive backfield would really be promising with Pepper and Collins for the future paired with the corners they now have on the roster.




No, matching a 6-year, $84 million contract is what would have haunted us for years.

Good luck Collins trying to cover Saquon.


This. That acquisition will haunt the redskins for years when they see him get toasted on wheel routes over and over again.
I still need to see if Collins' shoulder is 100%.  
Mr. Bungle : 7/9/2019 8:14 pm : link
If it's not, that contract will be a big problem for the Skins.
...  
christian : 7/9/2019 9:56 pm : link
The Collins contract is very front loaded, and he'll only be 27 when the Skins can easily cut him. It's absolutely an overpay, but it's not haunting.

The Giants have their own dismal contract in the secondary -- Jenoris Jenkins was one of the very worst corners in the NFL for much of the year -- and costs the Giants 14.75M in each of the next 2 years at ages 30 and 31.

I don't doubt he's a great dude in the locker room, but that's a lot of money to pay a great dude who's not been a good football player in more than 2 years.

RE: ...  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 7/9/2019 10:09 pm : link
In comment 14495641 christian said:
Quote:
The Collins contract is very front loaded, and he'll only be 27 when the Skins can easily cut him. It's absolutely an overpay, but it's not haunting.

The Giants have their own dismal contract in the secondary -- Jenoris Jenkins was one of the very worst corners in the NFL for much of the year -- and costs the Giants 14.75M in each of the next 2 years at ages 30 and 31.

I don't doubt he's a great dude in the locker room, but that's a lot of money to pay a great dude who's not been a good football player in more than 2 years.


Jenkins had a down year for him, but he was nowhere near a bad corner last year.
RE: ...  
WillVAB : 7/9/2019 10:33 pm : link
In comment 14495641 christian said:
Quote:
The Collins contract is very front loaded, and he'll only be 27 when the Skins can easily cut him. It's absolutely an overpay, but it's not haunting.

The Giants have their own dismal contract in the secondary -- Jenoris Jenkins was one of the very worst corners in the NFL for much of the year -- and costs the Giants 14.75M in each of the next 2 years at ages 30 and 31.

I don't doubt he's a great dude in the locker room, but that's a lot of money to pay a great dude who's not been a good football player in more than 2 years.


Dismal contract? They Giants can cut him next year with a 3.5 mil hit saving over 11 mil if they need to.

Collins is a limited player. He cant cover. Even at his best hes a good run stopper and good in passing situations moving downhill.

Jenkins at his best is an elite cover corner. Even at his worst hes a solid starting corner.
...  
christian : 7/9/2019 11:00 pm : link
I don't know about that Eric.

Jenkins on 107 targets gave up 69 receptions for 868 yards and 6 TDs. 12 break ups and 3 Ints. Passer Rating against of 96.6.

For reference, the guy on the other side who unquestionably sucked.

BW Webb on 93 targets allowed 54 receptions for 606 yards and 3 TDs. 6 break ups and 1 Int. Passer Rating against 83.9.

Jenkins can still make plays on the ball occasionally, but he got his ass handed to him in a number of games. He gave up 50 yards or more in 7/16 games. He gave up 75 yards or more in 5/16 games.
The DBs will sort themselves out  
ClayfromBklyn : 7/9/2019 11:02 pm : link
I think it's great that we seem to have a lot of depth (though admittedly young &/or new to playing together) in the DB room. Injuries and on-field play will help sort things out, but I'd be very surprised if we don't have at least 3 or 4 solid DBs (safeties and corners) playnig well together by mid-season. And if that's true, Bettcher should be able to dial up some more exotic pressure schemes from the front 7, which may just give us a decent overall defense by Thanksgiving or so. Now, whether we'll be in any position to challenge for a Wild Card by then remains to be seen, but it does bode well for next year, no? And when last could we have said that?
...  
christian : 7/9/2019 11:42 pm : link
Jenkins himself hasn't been "elite" since 2016. His last 2 seasons have been injury plagued and bad. Before OTAs he said he was hurt much of last year. I believe it, he had a very rough year.

At age 30, with a cost of 14.75M (4th most of any corner in the NFL), coming off back-to-back injury plagued seasons, is it likely he approaches who he was in 2016? I doubt it.

If healthy, I don't expect Jenkins to be as bad as his 2018 performance, but with all the young talent, and at that cost, he's not good value.
christian  
mittenedman : 7/9/2019 11:54 pm : link
no offense but saying Jenkins is one of the worst CBs in football is dumb. I don't care what the stats say, that is simply not an accurate evaluation
RE: RE: ...  
Zeke's Alibi : 7/9/2019 11:58 pm : link
In comment 14495647 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 14495641 christian said:


Quote:


The Collins contract is very front loaded, and he'll only be 27 when the Skins can easily cut him. It's absolutely an overpay, but it's not haunting.

The Giants have their own dismal contract in the secondary -- Jenoris Jenkins was one of the very worst corners in the NFL for much of the year -- and costs the Giants 14.75M in each of the next 2 years at ages 30 and 31.

I don't doubt he's a great dude in the locker room, but that's a lot of money to pay a great dude who's not been a good football player in more than 2 years.




Jenkins had a down year for him, but he was nowhere near a bad corner last year.


Where do people come up with this stuff?
Jenkins play floats to wherever the team is at.  
Zeke's Alibi : 7/10/2019 12:02 am : link
Whenever he is playing on a good team his level of play steps up, but when the team isn't performing he loses focus and gets disinterested. Been his MO his whole career. Add all the personal shit going on, its no wonder why he had a down year.
RE: christian  
christian : 7/10/2019 12:06 am : link
In comment 14495697 mittenedman said:
Quote:
no offense but saying Jenkins is one of the worst CBs in football is dumb. I don't care what the stats say, that is simply not an accurate evaluation


I said for much of the year he was one of the worst corners in the league.

Maybe he returns to his 2016 form. If he does that at 30, that's comeback player of the year type stuff. I don't think that's likely, do you?

If his output isn't a measure of his performance, what are you using?
RE: ...  
WillVAB : 7/10/2019 7:24 am : link
In comment 14495696 christian said:
Quote:
Jenkins himself hasn't been "elite" since 2016. His last 2 seasons have been injury plagued and bad. Before OTAs he said he was hurt much of last year. I believe it, he had a very rough year.

At age 30, with a cost of 14.75M (4th most of any corner in the NFL), coming off back-to-back injury plagued seasons, is it likely he approaches who he was in 2016? I doubt it.

If healthy, I don't expect Jenkins to be as bad as his 2018 performance, but with all the young talent, and at that cost, he's not good value.


Collins has been a worse player and been more injury prone since 2016.
RE: RE: ...  
christian : 7/10/2019 8:38 am : link
In comment 14495737 WillVAB said:
Quote:
In comment 14495696 christian said:


Quote:


Jenkins himself hasn't been "elite" since 2016. His last 2 seasons have been injury plagued and bad. Before OTAs he said he was hurt much of last year. I believe it, he had a very rough year.

At age 30, with a cost of 14.75M (4th most of any corner in the NFL), coming off back-to-back injury plagued seasons, is it likely he approaches who he was in 2016? I doubt it.

If healthy, I don't expect Jenkins to be as bad as his 2018 performance, but with all the young talent, and at that cost, he's not good value.



Collins has been a worse player and been more injury prone since 2016.


I'm not upset the Giants let Collins go, nor defending his play. The Skins overpaid him. He's much closer to a good, than great player, when healthy. He's getting paid like a great player, and with his injury history, I wouldn't touch that contract.

That doesn't change the fact that Jenkins had an absolute crap season last year, and that paying him nearly 15M dollars this year is really bad value.
christian, football isn't a stats game.  
mittenedman : 7/10/2019 8:57 am : link
I have no idea why you're trashing Jenkins so much, you're entitled to your opinion. Agree to disagree. From my seat, he's an outstanding football player playing on what's been a bad team.
The Giants weren't going to cut or trade Jenkins this year.  
Klaatu : 7/10/2019 9:00 am : link
He was the only experienced, starting-caliber boundary CB on the roster, and it wasn't Gettleman's fault that the Giants were saddled with his contract. Clearly, however, the GM began preparing for "life after JJ" in the draft. Odds are that Jenkins is playing his last season in New York (and that season may turn out to be shorter than expected). There's no comparison between the Collins situation and JJ's.
My overall  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 7/10/2019 9:12 am : link
impression of Jenkins' play last year was this: He did well for the most part but, unlike him, gave up one big completion every other game.

Without evidence, my gut tells me that he wasn't completely focused and that may have had to do with the offseason issue (the dead body in his home) and/or he seems to be more on top of his game when the team is playing well.

He's still a guy who can completely shutdown even a top wide receiver.
Jackrabbit  
ChicagoMarty : 7/10/2019 10:10 am : link
has developed a very bad habit of biting on the first move by the wr leaving himself wide open to the wr turning upfield for a long completion.

This tendency has really been exploited by Dallas and the rest of the league has noticed.

Jackrabbit needs to get back to the fundamentals in his coverage.

Perhaps expounding on the fundamentals to the group of rookie db's he is taking under his wing will compel him to take fewer risks and allow for improved play on his part.
RE: My overall  
christian : 7/10/2019 10:39 am : link
In comment 14495790 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
impression of Jenkins' play last year was this: He did well for the most part but, unlike him, gave up one big completion every other game.

Without evidence, my gut tells me that he wasn't completely focused and that may have had to do with the offseason issue (the dead body in his home) and/or he seems to be more on top of his game when the team is playing well.

He's still a guy who can completely shutdown even a top wide receiver.


Eric - I don't doubt he was dealing with a lot mentally and per him, also physically. I believe him when he says he was hurt, he played better later in the year. That's why I said he was one of the worst corners in the league for much of the year. He was really, really bad the first 8 games.

He had arguably a worse year than the guy you called the "worst corner in the league." Look at the numbers from my 7/9/2019 11:00 pm post.

Is that who he will be this year? Who knows. He's been hurt two years in a row, and is 30. I suspect he'll be closer to his 2018 version than his 2016 version going forward.

His game logs from last year, just for reference. It wasn't just a few big plays, he was consistently bad the first half of the year.

REC/TGS YARDS
5 (7 tgts) - 81
6 (6 tgts) - 110
6 (10 tgts) - 86
4 (4 tgts) - 47
4 (7 tgts) - 66
3 (6 tgts) - 25
10 (12 tgts) - 155
4 (5 tgts) - 37
4 (8 tgts) - 43
5 (6 tgts) - 79
2 (2 tgts) - 28
6 (10 tgts) - 17
1 (6 tgts) - 13
2 (3 tgts) - 14
4 (6 tgts) - 50
3 (9 tgts) - 17
RE: christian, football isn't a stats game.  
christian : 7/10/2019 10:42 am : link
In comment 14495781 mittenedman said:
Quote:
I have no idea why you're trashing Jenkins so much, you're entitled to your opinion. Agree to disagree. From my seat, he's an outstanding football player playing on what's been a bad team.


I am not trashing him, I am relaying objective facts. What about his play indicated to you he was outstanding?

Are there mitigating circumstances like his self-proclaimed injury and his personal situation, sure?

If you believe he'll rebound, that's fair. I don't think at his age and injury history he will, but that's debatable.

What's not is that he played very badly last year.
What's your point, christian?  
Klaatu : 7/10/2019 10:59 am : link
That the Giants are paying Jenkins a lot more than he's worth? Okay, fine. What's your solution? Should they have cut him or tried to trade him? I don't think they have that much faith in their "Legion of Womb," not yet, anyway. Next year will most likely be a different story. This year, if he's a good teammate and helps the kids grow, he'll be well worth what he makes, even if his skills have diminished. Of all the crosses the 2019 Giants will have to bear, his is one of the lightest.
Christian  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 7/10/2019 11:22 am : link
I don't see anything in those stats that is contrary to what I said. I think he played fairly well EXCEPT it seemed he gave up a big play every other game (roughly speaking).

I think I even addressed this in my game previews.
I  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 7/10/2019 11:23 am : link
will also say this... no one is the secondary was helped out by our safeties in coverage.
RE: What's your point, christian?  
christian : 7/10/2019 1:09 pm : link
In comment 14495869 Klaatu said:
Quote:
That the Giants are paying Jenkins a lot more than he's worth? Okay, fine. What's your solution? Should they have cut him or tried to trade him? I don't think they have that much faith in their "Legion of Womb," not yet, anyway. Next year will most likely be a different story. This year, if he's a good teammate and helps the kids grow, he'll be well worth what he makes, even if his skills have diminished. Of all the crosses the 2019 Giants will have to bear, his is one of the lightest.


Two points

1) Yes, at a nearly $15M cap hit and his 2018 output, he's a very bad value. I'd very much hope the 4th highest paid CB in the league this year would be doing much more than being a good teammate. We can agree to disagree about that.

2) In the review B.W. Webb was called arguably the "worst starting corner" in the NFL. Jenkins had a comparably bad year, worse in a few areas. Sure, if you subtract his frequent bad plays, he'd be better.

I am really curious what made Webb the worst corner in the league, and the guy across of him, with an equally bad output, not.
RE: RE: What's your point, christian?  
Klaatu : 7/10/2019 1:21 pm : link
In comment 14495978 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 14495869 Klaatu said:


Quote:


That the Giants are paying Jenkins a lot more than he's worth? Okay, fine. What's your solution? Should they have cut him or tried to trade him? I don't think they have that much faith in their "Legion of Womb," not yet, anyway. Next year will most likely be a different story. This year, if he's a good teammate and helps the kids grow, he'll be well worth what he makes, even if his skills have diminished. Of all the crosses the 2019 Giants will have to bear, his is one of the lightest.



Two points

1) Yes, at a nearly $15M cap hit and his 2018 output, he's a very bad value. I'd very much hope the 4th highest paid CB in the league this year would be doing much more than being a good teammate. We can agree to disagree about that.

2) In the review B.W. Webb was called arguably the "worst starting corner" in the NFL. Jenkins had a comparably bad year, worse in a few areas. Sure, if you subtract his frequent bad plays, he'd be better.

I am really curious what made Webb the worst corner in the league, and the guy across of him, with an equally bad output, not.


I conceded your first point that Jenkins was overpaid as a CB this year. We can disagree about his value as a teacher/mentor. Your second point is meaningless unless you're arguing that the Giants should've cut Jenkins (or traded him) and kept Webb.
...  
christian : 7/10/2019 1:41 pm : link
In a league where resources can be rolled forward? Absolutely.

There is no chance in hell Jenkins would get 15M this year in the open market -- he should have been offered a serious pay cut or cut.

If the Giants want a veteran to place hold for the rookies, guys like Coty Sensabaugh and Morris Claiborne, who had comparable years to Jenkins last year, are available for far less.

RE: ...  
Klaatu : 7/10/2019 2:51 pm : link
In comment 14496030 christian said:
Quote:
In a league where resources can be rolled forward? Absolutely.

There is no chance in hell Jenkins would get 15M this year in the open market -- he should have been offered a serious pay cut or cut.

If the Giants want a veteran to place hold for the rookies, guys like Coty Sensabaugh and Morris Claiborne, who had comparable years to Jenkins last year, are available for far less.


If you buy what PFF is selling, Jenkins graded slightly higher than Webb, Clairborne, and Sensabaugh. Webb is on his eighth team in seven years and Clairbonre and Sensabaugh remain unsigned. No doubt there are reasons for that.

Jenkins was here, familiar with the system, apparently well-liked by the staff and management, and on a team that had its share of turmoil this offseason there was no need to add to it, no matter how much he was being paid. His salary isn't killing the Giants and most likely he'll be off the books next year. You can't put a price on stability, or on a veteran who seems eager to work with a young crop of players knowing that he's secure in his position for at least the short term.
...  
christian : 7/10/2019 3:03 pm : link
Yeah you can, 14.75M = )
Bethea  
KWALL2 : 7/10/2019 5:11 pm : link
Will be one of our best old guy signings ever. He still runs likes young guy. If he stays healthy hes going to help a lot. Massive upgrade at that spot.

Both S are upgrades. I really like the starters at Safety.

If the rookie CB can play, we could be really strong at DB. And we need to be with no pass rushers :(
With no pass rush, these cb's and s will be exposed badly  
micky : 7/10/2019 6:02 pm : link
Will be many many changes to defense esp secondary before they can be of trust
Or, or...  
Klaatu : 7/10/2019 6:20 pm : link
Golden returns to his old form, Carter makes a big leap in his second year, Lawrence is a beast, and Bettcher brings the blitz six ways from Sunday with his new crew.

As a famous man once said, "Believe it and it will happen."
...  
christian : 7/10/2019 7:00 pm : link
It'll be interesting to see how much impact losing Vernon will be.

He was by far the Giants most consistent pass rusher, but he was also pinning back and looking for sacks and losing contain a lot when I watched him.

Despite the low sack numbers (which thankfully as a stat are rightfully being viewed as less indicatitive of a good pass rush finally) -- the Giants rated a little above the middle in overall pass rush.

The biggest improvement will be in coverage, which should also allow more blitzing.
I looked at the comments on the thread differently  
Bill2 : 7/10/2019 9:06 pm : link
One poster made note of the Patriots paying McCourty almost to overpay ( in their world) to make sure he stayed.

Many things the Pats do, we are increasing doing as well. We interviewed both their coordinators extensively last year. We have made other choices ( so have others) which they first demonstrated.

Notice that the Pats attack the middle of the field on offense and will overpay to defend the middle of the field on defense.

Notice that we now emphasize receivers who live in the middle of the field plus Barkley. Yeah, we have some burners we hope take the top off but we got two slot receivers, two RB and a FB and TE who all aim to live in the middle more than the wings. In a way we deemphasized the outside wide talent to insure we could make hay in the middle?

Is this design or incidental??

Although any team that among other things - laid out a red carpet to the HOF for Witten should have realized something from the nightmare
Jenkins,Peppers,Bethea and Baker  
MTinPNW : 7/11/2019 5:20 am : link
is a nice starting secondary. And there is some great promising young depth. I love the off season moves here.
RE: I'm super excited about  
FatMan in Charlotte : 7/11/2019 8:53 am : link
In comment 14495137 Dnew15 said:
Quote:
the youth and energy this defensive backfield should have - this is clearly the positional group with the most upside.

I gotta disagree with you on your LC take - he will haunt the Giants more than any other FA they let go in recent memory and they have to play him twice a year - that is going to suck.

That defensive backfield would really be promising with Pepper and Collins for the future paired with the corners they now have on the roster.


I think the Collins move is one we will look back at as being very favorable. Hell, I'm not even sure of LC's longevity in the league.

You have a player whose strength is delivering hard hits by leading with his shoulder (and seldom doing it with a wrap-up tackling technique). That shoulder has been reconstructed. He's never been particularly good at coverage.

So what did the Redskins do? Make him part of one of the most expensive defensive backfields in the NFL, with a player coming off a major surgery to the strength of his game.

It would be like signing Beckham to a huge contract after he's lost 3 fingers on his catching hand......
Jenkins had a few games where he just  
section125 : 7/11/2019 9:13 am : link
didn't give a shit. You could see it clearly in his effort. He has done that his entire career. Team is good, he plays like hell. Team is bad he plays like shit.

I expect he will play well this year. The "kids" in competition will force him to play well. I'd bet Bethea will keep on him. He will also be playing for his next team. Have to believe he knows he is likely to be replaced next year.
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