I don't know how many have followed the tragic story of the toddler who plunged to her death on a cruise ship. The initial reports said her Grandfather lost control of her and she slipped from his arms and fell. New information suggests that the Grandfather placed her in front of what he thought was a closed window, but it was open and she fell out.
The family now wants to hold Royal Caribbean liable for the death saying they didn't know the window was open.
I understand this is a tragedy, but why do people wish to deflect blame for their own actions? Those of us with kids know that we were hyper-sensitive about what our toddlers could and couldn't do. What they would put in their mouths. What items were left out for them to get to.
A grandfather places his granddaughter in front of an open window and doesn't realize it and wants to blame the cruise ship??? I'm hoping this case gets thrown out - but events like these can lead to cruise ships locking down all windows and stupid shit like that. All because one guy was too ignorant to realize a window was open.
No doubt about it in my mind. It's why they're choosing to loudly broadcast patently absurd accounts of the incident that are easily dismissed simply by looking at a few pictures of the the pool deck area. It doesn't matter how obviously false it is so long as it lights a fire under Royal Caribbean.
And why would the family be "legally entitled" to compensation?
As a real estate developer in NYC I can tell you that the city has a law for all properties with 3 or more units that landlords have to install and maintain window guards for any apt that has a child age 10 years or younger. At minimum there should have been a warning that the windows were operable and acting like this should be an open and shut case is ignorant. Now if the windows was already open when the grandfather placed the kid against it then yes I agree. But that's not what I read.
Any account I've heard said that the window was open and the Grandfather thought it wasn't.
He placed the child on the railing to "bang on the window" since she apparently likes to do it at hockey games.
And logically speaking - it should be an open and shut case - as in no case is viable. A person physically lifted a child and placed her into danger. It had nothing to do with a lack of signage or a mechanical malfunction.
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Now if the windows was already open when the grandfather placed the kid against it then yes I agree. But that's not what I read.
Any account I've heard said that the window was open and the Grandfather thought it wasn't.
He placed the child on the railing to "bang on the window" since she apparently likes to do it at hockey games.
And logically speaking - it should be an open and shut case - as in no case is viable. A person physically lifted a child and placed her into danger. It had nothing to do with a lack of signage or a mechanical malfunction.
Well if the window wasn't operable then it wouldn't be placing the child in danger, would it? Even if the window was closed and secured it wouldn't be placing the child in danger. So, no.
Let's just put people in a bubble - as long as it is puncture-proof - right?
Using that logic, wouldn't every flight of stairs be an unsafe environment, especially for toddlers?
Hell, you are on a ship that once it leaves the dock is in an open expanse of water. Isn't that by nature an unsafe environment?
everyone of your points actually would be harmful to cruise ship defense that they took enough safety precautions here...
My biggest question though is why have windows openable by passengers on a level that if someone falls they hit the concrete wharf when docked, or if at the sea, the Ocean. Those windows should have been controllable only by crew.
Why not allow passengers to open windows? If it is for the sole reason that one of them doesn't take a dive off the ship, that's really just catering to the serially stupid or those hellbent on suicide.
This law suit happy society we have now is absolutely ridiculous.
Personally I would like to think that if I was the grandpa I would accept my responsibility for what happened. What an awful thing to live with, and having read what I have, I don't see how me personally could hold the ship accountable.
To me, even letting a toddler rest their weight against a window is still opening the chance for them to fall due to faulty window, granted the chance is small.
This is how I see the situation with the information that I have. I feel horrible for the family, especially the grandpa.
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fucked up though? The reports are that the window was open, which is being called a safety hazard.
And why would the family be "legally entitled" to compensation?
As a real estate developer in NYC I can tell you that the city has a law for all properties with 3 or more units that landlords have to install and maintain window guards for any apt that has a child age 10 years or younger. At minimum there should have been a warning that the windows were operable and acting like this should be an open and shut case is ignorant. Now if the windows was already open when the grandfather placed the kid against it then yes I agree. But that's not what I read.
It sounds to me like it is exactly an open or shut case.
That is the actual location the grandfather placed the child past the safety barrier and out the window.
These are not floor-to-ceiling windows with oil slicks and copious amounts of banana peals positioned in front of them in the newborn infant wing of the boat as the legal team representing the family would have you believe.
Further, this is Royal Caribbean - not Boscoe's Discount Boats. I am going out on a limb and assuming they are compliant with regulations on operable windows on a sea-fairing vessel - albeit my legal expertise does not extend much past Bird Law.
I'm sure going forward all windows will have more stickers on them than a car racing in NASCAR (if the windows open at all), but given we have not had a lot of (or any really) reports of people plunging to their deaths due to open windows in a sitting area - I am feeling somewhat confident there is some gross (criminal) negligence involved here.
I'm sure there are warnings about drownings near the pool, but let's be realistic - if somebody drowns, we'd have the same discussion about liability regardless of the warnings.
People love to talk about signage, but it is not really a winnable situation. Let's say there was a warning about not climbing on railings (which there might be) - you still might have a smarmy lawyer argue that the signage was on the 4th window to the left and thus, out of eyesight of the Grandfather.
I wish common sense prevailed in these types of situations, but based on the warnings that the public cries are needed - I'm guessing it doesn't.
If you operate a business that serves toddlers and old people, you have a responsibility to make the environment safe. I argue a standard of safety similar to that of a hotel or apartment building. Here, a toddler died, the grampa wasn’t try to kill the kid, so, I don’t think the level of safety was adequate.
Regarding “personal responsibility” the other side of that argument would be, I guess, business or corporate responsibility. Does the company have no culpability here? Should they be allowed to operate under any conditions? Should they be allowed to leave, for instance, booze unattended and claim that parents and guardians are solely responsible for keeping their wards safe? Should the company be free to sell tickets to old people and toddlers and leave random windows open in all areas? Probably not, and I think the courts will help establish reasonable standards for safety and personal responsibility.
Nope. Where does this nonsense end? If a kid jams a fork in an outlet, is that the cruise line's fault? If a parent leaves a baby unattended in a full bath tub and the child drowns, does the cruise line bear responsibility if there weren't warning signs plastered all over everything?
I just want to get you on record here - your argument is that a mature, ostensibly functional adult has to be warned against holding a one year old at (or possible even outside of) a window overlooking a hundred foot drop?
Do you expect a 100% safe environment here? The Grandfather set the toddler on a railing that overlooked an open window. He may not have been trying to kill the kid, but the point is that the kid didn't kill herself, nor would've been able to without the assistance of being placed on a railing.
Please help me understand what safeguard the cruise line needs to implement to keep a person from intentionally setting a child on a railing?
The level of safety is adequate to protect against a person unintentionally walking over the railing and falling. Should there be metal bars? Should it be impossible to open windows?
Better yet - why would you have the expectation that the cruise ship needs to have that type of additional security? Because of one person who did a dangerous and stupid thing?
I think these types of lawsuits have set good precedents in the past, like love canal, but the pendulum has swung way too far.
Hardly ever in this world is there an absolute right or an absolute wrong. And even if there is then its still subject to the overall common sense of the person judging.
But continue the soapbox posts and we will keep responding...
This isn't a case of a malfunction. It isn't the case of having a dangerous environment. It is a case of a person lifting another person to a railing that faces an open window
If somebody really believes the cruise line is at fault then there is no incident that can happen on a ship that isn't the fault of the cruise line.
It wouldn't surprise me in the least that the long troll takes that contrary position.
My major ax to grind is with the lawyer and law team playing the propaganda game to clearly taking advantage of people who do not read past the headline (as was repeated ad nauseam in this thread) and create a narrative that the cruise ship acted in a callous manner and that no reasonable adult could have prevented the death of this poor child by leaving an open window in a nursery.
Thankfully none of us will ever be subjected to watching the video, but I hope it can produce closure for the parents, the poor toddler and make ships safe for the general public without forcing people to be bubble wrapped upon entry. I also hope the grandfather is held accountable for his actions, though I do not envy him for the way he will lead the remainder of his life.
If revisions do need to be made, so be it - but I do hope there is an honest narrative about what occurred, which has been my argument (albeit I likely painted that stance with too much "color").
This isn't a case of a malfunction. It isn't the case of having a dangerous environment. It is a case of a person lifting another person to a railing that faces an open window
If somebody really believes the cruise line is at fault then there is no incident that can happen on a ship that isn't the fault of the cruise line.
It wouldn't surprise me in the least that the long troll takes that contrary position.
Yet another absolute to make your point...not getting it
And it doesn’t surprise me that you can’t believe your opinion or view is also different than others. You should lose the contrarian bit as it has not shown you well lately...
If you operate a business that serves toddlers and old people, you have a responsibility to make the environment safe. I argue a standard of safety similar to that of a hotel or apartment building. Here, a toddler died, the grampa wasn’t try to kill the kid, so, I don’t think the level of safety was adequate.
Regarding “personal responsibility” the other side of that argument would be, I guess, business or corporate responsibility. Does the company have no culpability here? Should they be allowed to operate under any conditions? Should they be allowed to leave, for instance, booze unattended and claim that parents and guardians are solely responsible for keeping their wards safe? Should the company be free to sell tickets to old people and toddlers and leave random windows open in all areas? Probably not, and I think the courts will help establish reasonable standards for safety and personal responsibility.
You jumped from a reasonable person standard which is pretty apparent was in place when this incident occurred to examples of gross negligence.
This isn't that.
What would be the ship's culpability if this had happened instead?
It's not really all that different.
I certainly believe there are others that hold a different opinion. It's more a disbelief that those people are that fucking stupid. At least those who aren't doing it intentionally like you.
And yes - saying the cruise line is at fault after being shown things on this thread (especially UA's photos) most definitely makes one a contrarian.
You can wear it proudly - and I'm sure you do - as looking like a fucking moron doesn't seem to bother you in the least.
You jumped from a reasonable person standard which is pretty apparent was in place when this incident occurred to examples of gross negligence.
This isn't that.
If you’re reasonable person, but that standard alone doesn’t satisfy me. I honestly haven’t reviewed all the facts of the matter. But I’m entirely comfortable with the concept of an impartial judiciary and apparatus doing so to an enforceable conclusion. Again, to me, this is an example of the system working, not otherwise.
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You jumped from a reasonable person standard which is pretty apparent was in place when this incident occurred to examples of gross negligence.
This isn't that.
If you’re reasonable person, but that standard alone doesn’t satisfy me. I honestly haven’t reviewed all the facts of the matter. But I’m entirely comfortable with the concept of an impartial judiciary and apparatus doing so to an enforceable conclusion. Again, to me, this is an example of the system working, not otherwise.
and the fork question?
Do you expect a 100% safe environment here? The Grandfather set the toddler on a railing that overlooked an open window. He may not have been trying to kill the kid, but the point is that the kid didn't kill herself, nor would've been able to without the assistance of being placed on a railing.
Please help me understand what safeguard the cruise line needs to implement to keep a person from intentionally setting a child on a railing?
The level of safety is adequate to protect against a person unintentionally walking over the railing and falling. Should there be metal bars? Should it be impossible to open windows?
Better yet - why would you have the expectation that the cruise ship needs to have that type of additional security? Because of one person who did a dangerous and stupid thing?
The 100% safe environment is a straw man, so of course not. But an open window large enough to pass through a small child to a drop of more than 100 feet would satisfy my standard of reasonably safe. As far as acceptable standards and an actual solution, I suggest a standard of safety similar to US hotels and apartments.
"Beware of Dog" being the classic. When the dog bites someone the blame is cast to the dog owner because he knew he had a vicious dog hence the need to post the sign. One of my favorites (true story) lawn mower company sued because an operator decided to lift it to trim his hedges. He lost control of it and seriously injured himself. The lawsuit indicated there were several warnings posted on the mower but not one saying do not use it to trim hedges. If you post warnings you have to post everything possible. Even then someone will do something not anticipated.
I had a client years ago drive his car into a building. His excuse... the building sticks out to far.
I kid you not and I could do this all day long.
Bottom line, people are free to do stupid things cause harm to selves and others and there is always an excuse and possible scapegoat. If all people owned up to their actions I would have fewer claims.
Ponderous fuckstick trolls...every damn one of you!
The fork question is also a straw man, likely with no serious intention of debate, but I’ll bite b/c I’m in SFO with two hours to kill.
The fork in electric socket question requires context and subsequent deliberation. Is the toddler in a day care? A school? A lab or an office complex? Perhaps on an airplane or a train? From where did the fork come and by whom was the fork given to the toddler?
Does personal responsibility completely exonerated and exempt all companies and persons from any and all liability and responsibility for everything? Of course that’s a ridiculous position I’m certain you don’t take. But, to me at least, it’s the other side of the “personal responsibility” argument.
As usual, the answer is somewhere in between. I don’t think taking a toddler to sea makes any sense whatsoever. Less so, to hoist said toddler atop a guard rail in front of an open window. But, the cruise line markets to families and sells tickets to toddlers and old people and so has a responsibility to provide a reasonably safe environment. I think. And as previously said, a window large enough to pass through a small child above more 100 feet of concrete (and open ocean!) doesn’t satisfy my notion of reasonably safe.
Women arrested driving with pool/kids on roof - ( New Window )
Well, my wife’s plane just landed anyway so my time’s up.
There is no way for a small child to accidentally fall from that window. None, zero, nada. Have any other children fallen through one of these windows? Doesn't appear so, since there is one indispensable condition for this accident - a man stupid enough to hold a toddler in an open window 100 feet from the ground. Fortunately, few people are that stupid.
How about the railings on the open decks now? We need to fence people in so it feels like a fucking prison ship?
Jimmy Googs : 7/12/2019 3:08 pm : link : reply
Fat man already gave his opinion so that’s the absolute right answer.
Ponderous fuckstick trolls...every damn one of you!
Not every damn one of you. Just you!
Please don't tell me the running of the urinals is dead
it so common that it really isn't ponderous at this point...
I'm not taking the Grandfather's side. I wouldn't be surprised if the S.O.B. was drunk, but there are a lot of drunk people on cruise ships and that has to be taken into account. One should expect a higher standard of safety on a mega cruise ship then one would expect in a national park, or an adults only vacation
I'm not taking the Grandfather's side. I wouldn't be surprised if the S.O.B. was drunk, but there are a lot of drunk people on cruise ships and that has to be taken into account. One should expect a higher standard of safety on a mega cruise ship then one would expect in a national park, or an adults only vacation
The safety standard is extremely high. And no, observation decks should not be enclosed. There is no place you can fall off a deck unless you try real hard or are impaired and still try real hard.