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NFT: Taking Personal Responsibility for Toddlers

FatMan in Charlotte : 7/11/2019 9:51 am
I don't know how many have followed the tragic story of the toddler who plunged to her death on a cruise ship. The initial reports said her Grandfather lost control of her and she slipped from his arms and fell. New information suggests that the Grandfather placed her in front of what he thought was a closed window, but it was open and she fell out.

The family now wants to hold Royal Caribbean liable for the death saying they didn't know the window was open.

I understand this is a tragedy, but why do people wish to deflect blame for their own actions? Those of us with kids know that we were hyper-sensitive about what our toddlers could and couldn't do. What they would put in their mouths. What items were left out for them to get to.

A grandfather places his granddaughter in front of an open window and doesn't realize it and wants to blame the cruise ship??? I'm hoping this case gets thrown out - but events like these can lead to cruise ships locking down all windows and stupid shit like that. All because one guy was too ignorant to realize a window was open.
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I agree, Fats  
Moondawg : 7/11/2019 9:52 am : link
though I will add that I've been outraged at apparently dumb lawsuits in the past and when I learned the details, changed my mind.
Sometimes multiple actors can all be at fault to some degree for  
Metnut : 7/11/2019 9:54 am : link
the same incident.

Of course the grandfather should've been more careful, but if RC fucked up somehow as well and played even a small part in this tragedy, then why should the family forfeit the monetary compensation that they are legally entitled to?

If RC has no fault at all, they'll have their day in court to prove that. They certainly have the cash to higher good lawyers lobby their case.

was the window totally open or just unsecure  
superspynyg : 7/11/2019 9:54 am : link
and when the child pressed on the window it opened and she fell out?
The lawyer..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 7/11/2019 9:56 am : link
that's been in front of the cameras sounds like a complete tool though.

"Royal Caribbean has been criminally negligent in this case. No notices that windows may be open directly lead to the child's death".

Ummm. No. Leaving a toddler in front of an open window did.
I agree  
UConn4523 : 7/11/2019 9:56 am : link
but when you are so embarrassed and ashamed that it was because of your own negligence, deflecting seems natural. Certainly not excusing it but I get it from a mental standpoint.
How would RC have...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 7/11/2019 9:57 am : link
fucked up though? The reports are that the window was open, which is being called a safety hazard.

And why would the family be "legally entitled" to compensation?
How much do we really know about this situation?  
jcn56 : 7/11/2019 9:59 am : link
Aside from a handful of facts, mostly passed through PR at the cruise line?

I generally agree with the sentiment - but if this turns out to be a play area for children, should there really be a window that has an 11 story drop right outside with no protection?

I'd say hold off for now, see what else comes out.
RE: How would RC have...  
Metnut : 7/11/2019 10:01 am : link
In comment 14496516 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
fucked up though? The reports are that the window was open, which is being called a safety hazard.

And why would the family be "legally entitled" to compensation?


They are legally entitled to compensation if they win their lawsuit or RC settles the case.

If a reputable attorney thinks they have a good case, they lose zero by going forward with it. The attorney likely only gets paid if RC pays. Either they lose the case and are in the same position as if they didn't file, or they get money they are legally entitled to.

I'd rather see what happens in court when all the evidence comes out rather than making a judgment based on press releases.

Regardless of facts  
pjcas18 : 7/11/2019 10:02 am : link
it's probably a natural human emotion to want someone to lash out on and channel your pain and emotion to a source.

Not excusing the behavior, but people seem to always look for someone to blame in times of a tragedy beyond the obviously responsible party.

I won't mention the traditional occurrences in American society where this is most obvious, but you can imagine.
Not completely on-topic  
Metnut : 7/11/2019 10:05 am : link
but this story really got to me. Just a complete tragedy all around. Multiple lives ruined and scarred forever.

I think we can all imagine looking for anyone else to even take part of the blame in a situation like that. How could the grandfather even live with himself? I don't know how you come back from that afterward.

If an attorney comes along and says, well RC should've had X safety measure and I have cases A, B, C on the books where similar situations happened and the company had to pay because they didn't have adequate safety measures in place, I'm sure most grieving families would be willing to listen not only for the money, but to also try and alleviate some of the unbearable and frankly, unimaginable, guilt.
I have 2 children 2 years and younger  
Chris684 : 7/11/2019 10:06 am : link
My wife and I are going away and when we were planning we talked about cruises and just came to the conclusion to rule them out completely.

Our 2 year old, like most, is a climber and a mini acrobat. The thought of try to contain her on the deck of a ship with rails, steps, balconies, etc. just did not appeal to us.

Not trying to suggest that people shouldn't take toddlers on cruises but for my wife and I, we didn't feel we'd be able to relax and enjoy ourselves in that environment.

It just sucks these accidents have to happen but it always comes back to accountability. Yesterday I read about an infant being killed after the family dog (a Husky) went into its room and bit its head. I can't imagine the pain and regret I'd feel if the animal I chose to have as a pet in my home wound up killing my child.
Ah, admiralty law, the law of the seas.  
Marty in Albany : 7/11/2019 10:10 am : link
As mysterious to most lawyers as the sea itself.
RE: I agree  
Moondawg : 7/11/2019 10:11 am : link
In comment 14496515 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
but when you are so embarrassed and ashamed that it was because of your own negligence, deflecting seems natural. Certainly not excusing it but I get it from a mental standpoint.


This and what Metnut say below make much sense.
RE: I agree  
Gman11 : 7/11/2019 10:16 am : link
In comment 14496515 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
but when you are so embarrassed and ashamed that it was because of your own negligence, deflecting seems natural. Certainly not excusing it but I get it from a mental standpoint.


That, and the possibility of a large money settlement. Lawyers don't get involved if there isn't a chance for a big payday.
Don't be so quick to negate the lawsuit...  
x meadowlander : 7/11/2019 10:17 am : link
...news stories rarely list all the facts.

In a cruise ship, I'd expect the same 'window' precautions as hotels. Hotels don't have windows that open fully enough to fall out of, at least not in the US.

FWIW, a cruise liner is a sucky place to bring a toddler.

To me, it does sound like a major league fuckup, like the stories we see every year where someone FORGETS ABOUT THE BABY IN THE BACK SEAT and leaves them in a hot car in summer.

Also brings back memories of the toddler attacked by a GATOR at Disney.

Imagine going on vacation and coming home short one kid. Holy fuck.
I find it hard to believe  
section125 : 7/11/2019 10:17 am : link
that there would be an open "window" on a ship. Because of the load on the air conditioning systems, most ships don't have windows that open. It is possible but I cannot conceive of any reason to have one.

And if there was an open window, why would you place a child in it?
The window was 3 or 4 feet off the ground  
widmerseyebrow : 7/11/2019 10:18 am : link
Of course a toddler could climb out, but I'm inclined to believe the truth is closer to what was initially reported: the grandfather lifted her up. Either way it's no excuse for the grandfather, and RC should not be liable. Shall we ban open-able doors and windows for all hotels with balconies as well?

Personally I think I'd be too paranoid to really enjoy a cruise with our little guy unless he was on a leash while on board. I can't fathom the grief that family is feeling, but I also feel a lot of anger towards whoever was supposed to be watching the girl.
I guess  
johnnyb : 7/11/2019 10:18 am : link
Royal Caribbean is guilty of having windows that are too clean.

I agree FatMan, responsibility has to be on the parents, or guardians, and this shifting of responsibility is just wrong.

What can RCL do to avoid a passenger's stupidity?
And in Admiralty Law,  
section125 : 7/11/2019 10:23 am : link
the shipping company is at fault if there is even the most minimal fault on their part - as far as crew injuries are concerned - so I would imagine the same is true for passengers.

Ports or "windows" open inward, not outward because of the way there would be secured for rough weather.
If itís reasonably foreseeable  
Rick Morehouse : 7/11/2019 10:25 am : link
That a person would assume a window was in that particular location, then yes, RCL would be liable. Iím not sure of the choice of law provision in the cruise contract you agree to when buying your tickets, but itís likely a state that was carefully chosen by the cruise line. Iím not sure what necessarily applies here.

Just an awful, awful situation.
There is a video of that  
gmenatlarge : 7/11/2019 10:25 am : link
window, and it is pretty easy to mistake it for the closed windows next to it.
RE: Ah, admiralty law, the law of the seas.  
if_i_knew : 7/11/2019 10:36 am : link
In comment 14496525 Marty in Albany said:
Quote:
As mysterious to most lawyers as the sea itself.


This is true. I used to follow a fellow that would write a monthly column on scenarios/cases where admiralty law would apply. The laws seemed completely different than those applied on land. Even though the authorís specialty was admiralty law, sometimes he was at a loss to explain how the written law was interpreted in order to reach the verdict
Their case will be heard at eight bells  
Greg from LI : 7/11/2019 10:39 am : link
RE: There is a video of that  
section125 : 7/11/2019 10:52 am : link
In comment 14496539 gmenatlarge said:
Quote:
window, and it is pretty easy to mistake it for the closed windows next to it.


I thought this happened in their room..Saw a picture of the "window." You would have to be a moron to place a child on a railing #1. You would have to be a double moron to place a child on a handle rail and trust any glass, especially when there was none.

They will get a large settlement. Just the way Admiralty Law works.
This may be it  
if_i_knew : 7/11/2019 11:07 am : link
RE: This may be it - lonker donk  
if_i_knew : 7/11/2019 11:09 am : link
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/9458762/royal-caribbean-cruise-tragedy-toddler-dead/
I guess...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 7/11/2019 11:09 am : link
my point is that it should be up to the guardian to recognize if there is an open window.

You know why there are precautions on windows in hotels? Because of lawsuits like this and the possibility someone can jump out of a window.

Basically, we've legislated stupidity buffers.

My overarching comment is that tragedies can rarely be seen as unblamed tragedies these days. A toddler falling to their death isn't preventable by RC unless the captain veered into a wave intentionally trying to toss people overboard. Anything else is just semantical crap trying to assign a portion of blame to them.

The bottom line is if you are too stupid to not recognize a window is open, that isn't on RC.

When my 85-year old aunt walked through my screen door a couple years ago - should I have been liable?
RE: RE: There is a video of that  
gmenatlarge : 7/11/2019 11:10 am : link
In comment 14496566 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 14496539 gmenatlarge said:


Quote:


window, and it is pretty easy to mistake it for the closed windows next to it.



I thought this happened in their room..Saw a picture of the "window." You would have to be a moron to place a child on a railing #1. You would have to be a double moron to place a child on a handle rail and trust any glass, especially when there was none.

They will get a large settlement. Just the way Admiralty Law works.


That picture is not like the video I saw where the open window was easily mistaken for the closed ones, but there's always the rush to condemn.
RE: RE: This may be it - lonker donk  
if_i_knew : 7/11/2019 11:11 am : link


RE: I guess...  
pjcas18 : 7/11/2019 11:13 am : link
In comment 14496582 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
my point is that it should be up to the guardian to recognize if there is an open window.

You know why there are precautions on windows in hotels? Because of lawsuits like this and the possibility someone can jump out of a window.

Basically, we've legislated stupidity buffers.

My overarching comment is that tragedies can rarely be seen as unblamed tragedies these days. A toddler falling to their death isn't preventable by RC unless the captain veered into a wave intentionally trying to toss people overboard. Anything else is just semantical crap trying to assign a portion of blame to them.

The bottom line is if you are too stupid to not recognize a window is open, that isn't on RC.

When my 85-year old aunt walked through my screen door a couple years ago - should I have been liable?


Does your aunt look like the hey kool-aid guy? If so, you are liable only if you said "crash bang boom" afterwards.

In my opinion RC is absolutely negligent  
Mellowmood92 : 7/11/2019 11:14 am : link
Most major cities (I am most familiar with NYC) have code and regulation in place to prevent windows from opening by larger than several inches to prevent exactly this type of thing from happening in high-rises or apartment buildings. I don't know exactly how the window was designed, or how it opened - but regardless, in a children's play area (which this area was described as), the utmost care should have been taken on the boat's Owner to make sure this could never happen under any circumstance.

RE: RE: There is a video of that  
BlueLou'sBack : 7/11/2019 11:16 am : link
In comment 14496566 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 14496539 gmenatlarge said:


Quote:


window, and it is pretty easy to mistake it for the closed windows next to it.



I thought this happened in their room..Saw a picture of the "window." You would have to be a moron to place a child on a railing #1. You would have to be a double moron to place a child on a handle rail and trust any glass, especially when there was none.

They will get a large settlement. Just the way Admiralty Law works.


If Admiralty Law provides the statues by which this negligent gramps can leverage a huge settlement out of the cruise line by dint of a civil suit, then it would also be right if the cruise line officials - who represent the law and law enforcement bodies on board their ship, have the right to criminally prosecute the gramps for negligent manslaughter of his grandchild, I would think.

And FMiC, your thread title is two words too long IMO.

It's a deep issue in our society.
Not sure it was a child's playroom  
if_i_knew : 7/11/2019 11:17 am : link
RE: RE: RE: There is a video of that  
section125 : 7/11/2019 11:19 am : link
In comment 14496583 gmenatlarge said:
Quote:
In comment 14496566 section125 said:


Quote:


In comment 14496539 gmenatlarge said:


Quote:


window, and it is pretty easy to mistake it for the closed windows next to it.



I thought this happened in their room..Saw a picture of the "window." You would have to be a moron to place a child on a railing #1. You would have to be a double moron to place a child on a handle rail and trust any glass, especially when there was none.

They will get a large settlement. Just the way Admiralty Law works.



That picture is not like the video I saw where the open window was easily mistaken for the closed ones, but there's always the rush to condemn.


Have not seen the video, but you do realize that video does not give true images because of lack of depth (3D). And yes, depending on how old the man is, maybe his eyes aren't that good. But it goes back to why in God's name would you place an active child on a handrail and especially next to a window? Would you place a child on a handrail and allow a child to fall against a window as a safety?

I doubt we ever get a real story.
When we..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 7/11/2019 11:24 am : link
call people negligent to protect ourselves from open things like windows, that's an issue.

Again - it goes to the personal responsibility. Basically, you can abdicate any sense of responsibility by blaming a 3rd party for negligence.

The whole reason code exists on limiting how wide a window can open is because of frivolous crap like this. Deflection of responsibility.

Should high-rise hotels and apartments eliminate balconies because somebody can fall?
RE: When we..  
Metnut : 7/11/2019 11:25 am : link
In comment 14496602 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
call people negligent to protect ourselves from open things like windows, that's an issue.

Again - it goes to the personal responsibility. Basically, you can abdicate any sense of responsibility by blaming a 3rd party for negligence.

The whole reason code exists on limiting how wide a window can open is because of frivolous crap like this. Deflection of responsibility.

Should high-rise hotels and apartments eliminate balconies because somebody can fall?


No, but they should have railings that are sufficiently high and stable to prevent as many people from falling as possible.
If that's the standard..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 7/11/2019 11:27 am : link
then that window is plenty high enough so a toddler can't just wander into it and plunge to death.
RE: RE: RE: There is a video of that  
section125 : 7/11/2019 11:31 am : link
In comment 14496589 BlueLou'sBack said:
Quote:
In comment 14496566 section125 said:


Quote:


In comment 14496539 gmenatlarge said:


Quote:


window, and it is pretty easy to mistake it for the closed windows next to it.



I thought this happened in their room..Saw a picture of the "window." You would have to be a moron to place a child on a railing #1. You would have to be a double moron to place a child on a handle rail and trust any glass, especially when there was none.

They will get a large settlement. Just the way Admiralty Law works.



If Admiralty Law provides the statues by which this negligent gramps can leverage a huge settlement out of the cruise line by dint of a civil suit, then it would also be right if the cruise line officials - who represent the law and law enforcement bodies on board their ship, have the right to criminally prosecute the gramps for negligent manslaughter of his grandchild, I would think.

And FMiC, your thread title is two words too long IMO.

It's a deep issue in our society.


Lou, I have 40 years experience working on ships (not passenger thank heavens) 23 as Captain. That is not the way admiralty law works. Not sure on passengers, but the judge/court assigns percentage of fault(because all accidents have degrees of culpability). Maybe 25% the ship's fault and 75% the parents(I admit to semi-guessing on the passenger part)..It is almost never just one side wins all and the otherside loses all.
When it comes to crew injuries (passengers too???? IDK) if there is the tiniest of negligence on the shipping company's part the shipping company is responsible in some degree.

I'm certain this will be handled outside of court. Court cases make headlines and stay in the news. Settlements fade away.
RE: If that's the standard..  
Metnut : 7/11/2019 11:32 am : link
In comment 14496605 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
then that window is plenty high enough so a toddler can't just wander into it and plunge to death.


If the window is safe then they'll lose in court and the attorney will have likely wasted hundreds of hours of labor for no compensation.

It's just hard for me to judge whether it's safe or not until all the evidence comes out. Press releases rarely give enough information on this sort of stuff.
Where this..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 7/11/2019 11:38 am : link
issue first caught my eye was when the family lawyer talked about RC being criminally negligent. How this was completely on them. I get that it is his job to sensationalize things - but is it right to do so??

The toddler could not have fallen without assistance. The toddler would not have died had the Grandfather not picked her up and placed her on a window railing. And again - this is a terrible tragedy, but the death is directly attributable to the actions of the grandfather.

The broader point is that accepting personal responsibility wanes more and more each year.
RE: Where this..  
section125 : 7/11/2019 11:41 am : link
In comment 14496613 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
issue first caught my eye was when the family lawyer talked about RC being criminally negligent. How this was completely on them. I get that it is his job to sensationalize things - but is it right to do so??

The toddler could not have fallen without assistance. The toddler would not have died had the Grandfather not picked her up and placed her on a window railing. And again - this is a terrible tragedy, but the death is directly attributable to the actions of the grandfather.

The broader point is that accepting personal responsibility wanes more and more each year.


I would also be inclined to feel he placed her there to get the breeze in her face, not that he did not see the open window.....
And I'm..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 7/11/2019 11:45 am : link
not sure why warnings need to be plastered everywhere:

Quote:
"He puts her up on there thinking she's going to bang on the glass and it's going to be great, and she goes to bang on the glass and the next thing he knows she's gone,Ē Winkleman said.

Winkleman said Royal Caribbean should have provided some sort of notice.

"How about a warning? How about a sign? How about something?" he said.


"Warning: window may or may not be open. Don't place toddlers on them!"

Is that the solution?
And..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 7/11/2019 11:48 am : link
HA! The attorney actually invoked the screed door analogy!

Quote:
"We've all had that experience where someone walks into a glass sliding door thinking it's not there," Winkleman said. "This is the inverse of that."

The attorney for the family of 18-month-old Chloe Wiegand says she loved banging on the glass at her brother's hockey games. That's why her grandfather, Salvatore Anello, picked her up and sat her on a wooden rail in front of what he thought was a wall of enclosed glass windows, he said.


So basically, because the window might have looked closed, it is RC's fault that it wasn't. I'd love to hear how it is the arena's fault when the plexiglass she's banging on reverberates back on her skull when hockey players crash into it!!
I want to know who thinks they give away packages of candy  
Bill L : 7/11/2019 11:57 am : link
in boxes of electronics and eats them.
I'm with Fatman on this 100%  
Sneakers O'toole : 7/11/2019 12:04 pm : link
.
Linked is a video of the same ship and the same window/area....  
UAGiant : 7/11/2019 12:05 pm : link
It is not a play area, it is a general sitting area.

There are guard rails that prevent people from getting too close or leaning over/out the window.

Several of them are clearly open in the video and the windows that are closed are clearly tinted in a blue hue.
Link - ( New Window )
to address the point someone made earlier....  
Greg from LI : 7/11/2019 12:08 pm : link
No, it's not a "kids play area". I took a cruise on a very similar RC ship last summer. That is the deck seating area near the pool. That's why you see chaise lounges there - the pool area is behind the guys standing on the right. People often bring their food out to eat at the tables along those windows. Since it can get hot there, they can open the windows to let a breeze in.

I'm sorry, having been on such a ship and having sat at a table next to those windows like the ones you see in the picture, there is no doubt in my mind that this is 100% negligence/poor judgment on the part of the grandfather. Those railings are maybe 3 or 4 inches from the window. There is absolutely no way a functioning adult would be unaware that the window was open while placing a child on that railing. If the child were facing the window, as she would be to bang on it, her legs would physically hit the window when she sat on the railing - it's nonsense. I 100% believe the initial story - the grandfather knowingly, foolishly sat her on the railing at the open window and she slipped out of his grasp and fell.
RE: I want to know who thinks they give away packages of candy  
pjcas18 : 7/11/2019 12:08 pm : link
In comment 14496630 Bill L said:
Quote:
in boxes of electronics and eats them.


why does my lawn mower say in the instruction manual don't put your hands or feet in the blade when the lawnmower is running?

Why does it say don't pick this lawnmower up and use on shrubs like a weed whacker?

Everything has to be idiot proofed solely to avoid litigation when the idiot does the inevitable idiotic thing.

UAGiants  
Greg from LI : 7/11/2019 12:11 pm : link
Exactly, they are tinted because it's a shaded seating area. Also, you can feel the breeze coming in through the windows - that's why people open them in the first place!

The grandfather is either a senile idiot who couldn't tell than an obviously open window is open, or he was incredibly negligent in putting a toddler on an open railing 100 feet in the air.
Additionally...  
UAGiant : 7/11/2019 12:11 pm : link
The next link shows the play area - with the sitting area to the side.

Again - windows are clearly open with a guardrail and tinted a blue color for those that are closed.
Link - ( New Window )
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