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NFT: Taking Personal Responsibility for Toddlers

FatMan in Charlotte : 7/11/2019 9:51 am
I don't know how many have followed the tragic story of the toddler who plunged to her death on a cruise ship. The initial reports said her Grandfather lost control of her and she slipped from his arms and fell. New information suggests that the Grandfather placed her in front of what he thought was a closed window, but it was open and she fell out.

The family now wants to hold Royal Caribbean liable for the death saying they didn't know the window was open.

I understand this is a tragedy, but why do people wish to deflect blame for their own actions? Those of us with kids know that we were hyper-sensitive about what our toddlers could and couldn't do. What they would put in their mouths. What items were left out for them to get to.

A grandfather places his granddaughter in front of an open window and doesn't realize it and wants to blame the cruise ship??? I'm hoping this case gets thrown out - but events like these can lead to cruise ships locking down all windows and stupid shit like that. All because one guy was too ignorant to realize a window was open.
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Greg..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 7/11/2019 12:13 pm : link
the lawyer keeps referencing that it is a child's play area:

Quote:
Winkleman said the family wanted to know why a window that “should have been closed securely” was open. Winkleman said the family is “understandably too distraught to talk” about the tragedy.

“The family needs answers as to why there would be an open window in a wall full of fixed windows in a kids’ play area? Why would you have the danger without any warning, sign, or notice?” he asked.


It seems like sensationalizing this event is his main vehicle to try and win a suit. But is it ethical?
yep, that's the exact same pool layout we had on Adventure of the Sea  
Greg from LI : 7/11/2019 12:17 pm : link
It's a good 50 feet plus from the edge of the kids pool area to the windows.
RE: Greg..  
Greg from LI : 7/11/2019 12:20 pm : link
In comment 14496658 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
the lawyer keeps referencing that it is a child's play area:



Quote:


Winkleman said the family wanted to know why a window that “should have been closed securely” was open. Winkleman said the family is “understandably too distraught to talk” about the tragedy.

“The family needs answers as to why there would be an open window in a wall full of fixed windows in a kids’ play area? Why would you have the danger without any warning, sign, or notice?” he asked.



It seems like sensationalizing this event is his main vehicle to try and win a suit. But is it ethical?


Lawyer.....ethical.....does not compute

I'm guessing this guy is a total hack of an attorney, because simply viewing photos or video of the entire deck area a)demolishes his contention that this is a "kids' play area" b)demolishes the idea that a functioning adult could be confused as to whether one of those windows was closed or not.
RE: Don't be so quick to negate the lawsuit...  
santacruzom : 7/11/2019 12:20 pm : link
In comment 14496529 x meadowlander said:
Quote:

Imagine going on vacation and coming home short one kid.


I'd really rather not imagine that.

I hate stories like these. In fact, I'm not even going to read it.
It would..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 7/11/2019 12:22 pm : link
be devastating to suffer a tragedy like this.

However, substituting the grieving process to try and shift blame isn't helping anyone.

I can't even imagine losing a family member like this and immediately conferring with an attorney on how to get monetary compensation out of it.
RE: Greg..  
section125 : 7/11/2019 12:25 pm : link
In comment 14496658 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
the lawyer keeps referencing that it is a child's play area:



Quote:


Winkleman said the family wanted to know why a window that “should have been closed securely” was open. Winkleman said the family is “understandably too distraught to talk” about the tragedy.

“The family needs answers as to why there would be an open window in a wall full of fixed windows in a kids’ play area? Why would you have the danger without any warning, sign, or notice?” he asked.



It seems like sensationalizing this event is his main vehicle to try and win a suit. But is it ethical?


You can bet your bottom dollar that signs will now be posted near open windows or all the openings will be closed off.
Used to call it sailor proofing, which we all knew was impossible.
I agree. I have tremendous sympathy for the grandfather  
Greg from LI : 7/11/2019 12:26 pm : link
He did something really stupid, but without evidence to the contrary I assume he was a typical doting grandpa who loved his granddaughter very much. He made a terrible mistake. Now he has to live with the knowledge that his carelessness caused this horrible tragedy. I wouldn't wish that kind of pain and guilt on anyone.

That doesn't mean that he wasn't to blame and that it was the cruise line's fault, though.
After seeing those photos  
Mellowmood92 : 7/11/2019 12:27 pm : link
My opinion has changed. Being the father of a 2 year old, there is no way in hell i'm putting my child on that railing.
RE: It would..  
pjcas18 : 7/11/2019 12:28 pm : link
In comment 14496666 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
be devastating to suffer a tragedy like this.

However, substituting the grieving process to try and shift blame isn't helping anyone.

I can't even imagine losing a family member like this and immediately conferring with an attorney on how to get monetary compensation out of it.


I think they just want someone to blame. In my first response I said I think it's a human emotion to look for someone to hold responsible for your child's death and not the child's grandfather.

I'm not sure money is their motivation (I have no idea - it's very likely the lawyer's) but I feel like the parents are looking to remove themselves from being responsible for the child's death. Since if I understand correctly, they left their child in the grandfather's care and I wonder if they knew he wasn't 100% up to it.

I think it's natural to want to do this, not excusing it, just trying to empathize with the grieving process.

I think anger is the second emotion after shock.
RE: I have 2 children 2 years and younger  
allstarjim : 7/11/2019 12:35 pm : link
In comment 14496524 Chris684 said:
Quote:
My wife and I are going away and when we were planning we talked about cruises and just came to the conclusion to rule them out completely.

Our 2 year old, like most, is a climber and a mini acrobat. The thought of try to contain her on the deck of a ship with rails, steps, balconies, etc. just did not appeal to us.

Not trying to suggest that people shouldn't take toddlers on cruises but for my wife and I, we didn't feel we'd be able to relax and enjoy ourselves in that environment.

It just sucks these accidents have to happen but it always comes back to accountability. Yesterday I read about an infant being killed after the family dog (a Husky) went into its room and bit its head. I can't imagine the pain and regret I'd feel if the animal I chose to have as a pet in my home wound up killing my child.


I have no problem suggesting that. What possesses people to bring a toddler on a cruise ship? It's dangerous, there's a lot of people around, you are probably going to ruin a lot of dinners for other patrons around you, there are pools, hazards, and people getting drunk all day every day, everywhere. Am I saying they are bad parents for bringing a baby on a cruise? Yeah, I think they are.

And they are inconsiderate to their fellow passengers. I hate this young child lost her left because of her parents' and grandfather's bad judgement, and I hate that this tragedy will affect their lives' forever, but placing blame at the feet of RC to me seems idiotic. In a sense, perhaps RC should even have a policy of no children under a certain age even allowed on the cruise ship, but I understand they'll never do that.
pj..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 7/11/2019 12:35 pm : link
I agree. And it furthers my perception that people don't wish to accept personal responsibility. They want to kick the can down the road as far as possible.
I think "just looking for someone to blame" is a simplification  
santacruzom : 7/11/2019 12:37 pm : link
I doubt that anyone involved will ever, ever cease blaming themselves no matter who they sue.
RE: pj..  
pjcas18 : 7/11/2019 12:38 pm : link
In comment 14496687 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
I agree. And it furthers my perception that people don't wish to accept personal responsibility. They want to kick the can down the road as far as possible.


Yes, agree 100%, but also I imagine they're extremely vulnerable.

Consider a parent who just lost a child, I can't truly fathom the emotion, and I hope I never know what it's like, but I imagine in that raw emotional state if someone puts a bug in your ear that this tragedy could have been prevented and some 3rd party is responsible I have to believe that's not a hard sell.

My bet is the Grandpa purposely held the girl up to the open window  
ZogZerg : 7/11/2019 12:39 pm : link
for whatever reason. He then dropped her by mistake.

The question is, why was the window open?
I would bet my bottom dollar that there's film on this....  
rnargi : 7/11/2019 12:39 pm : link
...there are cameras everywhere on board RC cruise ships...the truth is going to come out.
I'll stop beating this...  
UAGiant : 7/11/2019 12:42 pm : link
But if you go to 1:22 in the video, its obvious the window is opened and there is a handle that is there for opening/closing. Additionally, a rail that shows the window is not only capable of being open/closed, but that it is clearly open.

And even if all of that wasn't obvious, there is a guard rail staggered from the window to prevent any of this from being possible without physically being lifted over the safety device.

Acting like this is a nursery area that had a window that should have never been open under any circumstances is so clearly separated from reality it boggles the mind.

Its a tragedy and maybe there is more than needs to be done to protect people from themselves, but the lawyer's approach here is manipulative and done in a manner to shame a company to settle prior to getting beaten in the court of public opinion.
Link - ( New Window )
RE: My bet is the Grandpa purposely held the girl up to the open window  
Greg from LI : 7/11/2019 12:45 pm : link
In comment 14496691 ZogZerg said:
Quote:
for whatever reason. He then dropped her by mistake.

The question is, why was the window open?


Anyone can open those windows because it can get very hot around the deck, even in the shade, and a breeze makes it more pleasant.
RE: My bet is the Grandpa purposely held the girl up to the open window  
UAGiant : 7/11/2019 12:46 pm : link
In comment 14496691 ZogZerg said:
Quote:
for whatever reason. He then dropped her by mistake.

The question is, why was the window open?


Because its an adult sitting area to the side of a child play area that is designed for the windows to be open to permit a breeze.

The windows are tinted and there is a safety rail and other precautions in place to prevent people from going out the window without committing gross negligence.
But..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 7/11/2019 12:53 pm : link
there is not a SIGN!!!
RE: But..  
section125 : 7/11/2019 1:02 pm : link
In comment 14496703 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
there is not a SIGN!!!


That is 100% their argument and it will work.
RE: My bet is the Grandpa purposely held the girl up to the open window  
allstarjim : 7/11/2019 1:06 pm : link
In comment 14496691 ZogZerg said:
Quote:
for whatever reason. He then dropped her by mistake.

The question is, why was the window open?


I think you have it right. IMO, looking at that, it's a little too unbelievable to me to suggest he didn't know he putting her up on an open window. The kid isn't getting up there by herself, and why in God's name would he pick her up to a closed window, when, from the looks of it, does not even seem like it would allow for a good view through it.

He took her to the open window so she could look at the water, feel the wind in her hair, and he somehow just dropped her. Maybe she got upset and was wiggling around, maybe somebody bumped into him walking by, maybe grandpa was drunk. But at any rate, this is 75% on grandpa and 25% on the parents for even taking a toddler on a cruise in the first place.
Cruises are multinational  
Bill L : 7/11/2019 1:08 pm : link
can you imagine how big the sign would be?
RE: RE: But..  
UAGiant : 7/11/2019 1:13 pm : link
In comment 14496710 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 14496703 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


there is not a SIGN!!!



That is 100% their argument and it will work.


They'll get an undisclosed settlement, the grandfather will avoid any charges and all cruise ships will likely just permanently close up the windows and add further safety precautions that will dampen enjoyment of being on the ship.

Everyone loses basically.
RE: Cruises are multinational  
section125 : 7/11/2019 1:18 pm : link
In comment 14496716 Bill L said:
Quote:
can you imagine how big the sign would be?


90% of passengers are US +/-. So sign would likely be in English. Plus it would likely be a picture type sign.

As example....

If you watch that video  
AnnapolisMike : 7/11/2019 1:22 pm : link
it seems painfully obvious that the Grandfather is unfortunately the cause of this accident. You can't make the world safe for people who make bad decisions that result in the death of themselves or others.

I can't imagine being that grandfather...even if you can somehow pin a portion of the blame on RC. That child is alive if you do not put her in a situation where if something goes wrong she falls 150 feet to concrete.
RE: Not completely on-topic  
Jim in Forest Hills : 7/11/2019 1:22 pm : link
In comment 14496523 Metnut said:
Quote:
but this story really got to me. Just a complete tragedy all around. Multiple lives ruined and scarred forever.

I think we can all imagine looking for anyone else to even take part of the blame in a situation like that. How could the grandfather even live with himself? I don't know how you come back from that afterward.




Yeah, there's no coming back from this. This grandfather will see his grandchild's eyes every day for the rest of his life. No rest for this man until he passes. No money will ever take that away.
Is there..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 7/11/2019 1:23 pm : link
an International sign for

"Don't be a fucking moron"??
RE: Is there..  
section125 : 7/11/2019 1:27 pm : link
In comment 14496730 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
an International sign for

"Don't be a fucking moron"??


Told you, nothing is sailor or passenger proof....I saw a sailor jump into a harbor to chase a garbage bag that fell into the water, work boots and clothes on...there is no stopping stupid.
section..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 7/11/2019 1:28 pm : link
By the way - really appreciate your insight on this thread.

I learned a few things about Admirality Law. I didn't even know it existed!!
Does the safety rail not cover the need here?  
UAGiant : 7/11/2019 1:34 pm : link
I ask earnestly and without trying to be snarky.



If the video comes in and shows the grandfather dangling the child beyond the safety railing, would Admirality Law place a % of culpability on the cruise line for having a functioning window?
RE: section..  
section125 : 7/11/2019 1:45 pm : link
In comment 14496732 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
By the way - really appreciate your insight on this thread.

I learned a few things about Admirality Law. I didn't even know it existed!!


40 years and I don't know, either. It really is a guess on most. I had to deal with it a long time and I am not kidding on "sailor proof" and it is still the ship's fault. There may very well be a difference between passenger rights and crew rights(in fact I'm certain there is). The mind boggling things we had to do to correct incidents. I'm sure you are aware of all the ISO stuff 9001, 14001, 18001, etc., and how that affected things.
Best example a lawyer told me, if a beach had all white sand grains and one was discolored and the percentage of fault of the shipping company was the one discolored grain vs the rest of the grains being the sailor's, it is still the ship's fault.
In this case (or any incident), there will be an internal investigation(not subject to outside review except by the flag state authority[reps for the country in which the ship is registered] who will approve the recommendation) and the ship will need to explain how they plan to never allow this to happen again. These reviews cannot be used against them in court.
RE: Does the safety rail not cover the need here?  
section125 : 7/11/2019 1:47 pm : link
In comment 14496736 UAGiant said:
Quote:
I ask earnestly and without trying to be snarky.



If the video comes in and shows the grandfather dangling the child beyond the safety railing, would Admiralty Law place a % of culpability on the cruise line for having a functioning window?


Not out of realm of possibility..
RE: RE: RE: There is a video of that  
montanagiant : 7/11/2019 3:12 pm : link
In comment 14496589 BlueLou'sBack said:
Quote:
In comment 14496566 section125 said:


Quote:


In comment 14496539 gmenatlarge said:


Quote:


window, and it is pretty easy to mistake it for the closed windows next to it.



I thought this happened in their room..Saw a picture of the "window." You would have to be a moron to place a child on a railing #1. You would have to be a double moron to place a child on a handle rail and trust any glass, especially when there was none.

They will get a large settlement. Just the way Admiralty Law works.



If Admiralty Law provides the statues by which this negligent gramps can leverage a huge settlement out of the cruise line by dint of a civil suit, then it would also be right if the cruise line officials - who represent the law and law enforcement bodies on board their ship, have the right to criminally prosecute the gramps for negligent manslaughter of his grandchild, I would think.

And FMiC, your thread title is two words too long IMO.

It's a deep issue in our society.

I don't know if that is the case while docked in port. I think the local authorities are in charge. Out at sea, the Captain would be the law
Admiralty law is murky in this case  
montanagiant : 7/11/2019 3:17 pm : link
The ship was docked, not underway. Which then means local law also is taken into account.

Even if the window is closed why the hell would you  
Zeke's Alibi : 7/11/2019 3:27 pm : link
Put a child on there without holding on?!?! Could easily fall backwards and Crack their head! WTF!
As soon as I heard about this  
Cenotaph : 7/11/2019 3:46 pm : link
I knew a lawsuit was coming. Unfortunate fact in our society - and the family will most likely at least get a settlement. And cruise ships will no longer have open-able windows, like so many other public places. Too often it seems like people's 1st response to a tragedy or someone being injured is to look for someone to blame, and then sue. Sometimes you have to wonder about people's priorities.
RE: RE: I want to know who thinks they give away packages of candy  
Johnny5 : 7/11/2019 3:56 pm : link
In comment 14496650 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
In comment 14496630 Bill L said:


Quote:


in boxes of electronics and eats them.



why does my lawn mower say in the instruction manual don't put your hands or feet in the blade when the lawnmower is running?

Why does it say don't pick this lawnmower up and use on shrubs like a weed whacker?

Everything has to be idiot proofed solely to avoid litigation when the idiot does the inevitable idiotic thing.

LOL

RE: RE: RE: RE: There is a video of that  
section125 : 7/11/2019 4:07 pm : link
In comment 14496780 montanagiant said:
Quote:
In comment 14496589 BlueLou'sBack said:


Quote:


In comment 14496566 section125 said:


Quote:


In comment 14496539 gmenatlarge said:


Quote:


window, and it is pretty easy to mistake it for the closed windows next to it.



I thought this happened in their room..Saw a picture of the "window." You would have to be a moron to place a child on a railing #1. You would have to be a double moron to place a child on a handle rail and trust any glass, especially when there was none.

They will get a large settlement. Just the way Admiralty Law works.



If Admiralty Law provides the statues by which this negligent gramps can leverage a huge settlement out of the cruise line by dint of a civil suit, then it would also be right if the cruise line officials - who represent the law and law enforcement bodies on board their ship, have the right to criminally prosecute the gramps for negligent manslaughter of his grandchild, I would think.

And FMiC, your thread title is two words too long IMO.

It's a deep issue in our society.


I don't know if that is the case while docked in port. I think the local authorities are in charge. Out at sea, the Captain would be the law


The captain is always in command/responsible for the ship except while in the Panama Canal and entering a drydock. Yes local authorities would have jurisdiction over the investigation and could detain the ship if deemed to have serious safety flaws. At sea the rules/laws of the country of registration would apply.
So no lawsuit has been filed  
Les in TO : 7/11/2019 4:22 pm : link
They are looking at the video and asking questions of Royal Caribbean.

No amount of money will bring Chloe back and of course the grandfather made the biggest mistake of his life by not realizing it was open. But if the window should have been closed per the cruise lines operating procedures and there were no warning signs , I can understand why they would take the chance at litigation and a settlement to cover their costs of psychological counselling, funeral expenses, lost wages from having to take a leave from work etc
Why..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 7/11/2019 4:27 pm : link
would there need to be a warning sign telling people you may fall from a great height if you dangle over the ledge??

And how would intentionally dangling over a rail fall out oft he realm of personal responsibility?

If you don't want to deal with grief and funeral expenses, don't place a toddler on a rail.

Expecting (or attempting) to get a settlement for this ends up hurting the cruise line and adds more restrictions to those that actually have and exhibit common sense.

The fact that some people actually think the family is justified in going after RC is evidence that this type of behavior is tolerated and that shifting blame is OK.
I mean, the first cruise we took, my kids were 5 and 7  
Greg from LI : 7/11/2019 4:30 pm : link
And I wouldn't let them go anywhere near the railings even though they were nowhere near tall enough to fall over unless they climbed up to the top rail. It is a long, long fall from the higher decks - why on earth would anyone take that risk?
RE: Why..  
section125 : 7/11/2019 4:45 pm : link
In comment 14496817 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
would there need to be a warning sign telling people you may fall from a great height if you dangle over the ledge??

And how would intentionally dangling over a rail fall out oft he realm of personal responsibility?

If you don't want to deal with grief and funeral expenses, don't place a toddler on a rail.

Expecting (or attempting) to get a settlement for this ends up hurting the cruise line and adds more restrictions to those that actually have and exhibit common sense.

The fact that some people actually think the family is justified in going after RC is evidence that this type of behavior is tolerated and that shifting blame is OK.


People sue mfgs all the time even when they screw up. The lady that burn herself with coffee between her legs, is a prime example. Juries feel bad for the family and think insurance and the big company should pay even if it isn't the company's fault.
Fatman I don't get it....like their explanation of letting her sit on  
Zeke's Alibi : 7/11/2019 4:47 pm : link
the glass at hockey games is bonkers. So you were going to let her sit up there without holding on to her even if the glass was there? Easily could have fallen backwards and smacked her head. These people sound mentally deficient, I don't even think gramps is senile. This is going to sound terrible, but this seems like Darwin in action. How fucking stupid can you be! Idiocracy is turning into a documentary.
Zeke..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 7/11/2019 4:50 pm : link
when I was a kid, fireworks used to enthrall me. Should that mean Gramps should have set me down right next to a M-80 to make me happy??

When these kind of cases result in a settlement, it rewards the ridiculousness.
Section....the coffee thing is brought up all the time and its stupid  
Zeke's Alibi : 7/11/2019 4:51 pm : link
to put coffee between your legs, but the temp they were serving coffee at was absolutely ridiculous. There is a reason she won that lawsuit. Normal temp coffee wouldn't have disfigured her the way McDs was serving it.
I don't even understand why McDs was serving coffee that hot, you  
Zeke's Alibi : 7/11/2019 4:53 pm : link
rarely see it anymore, but I hate when I get coffee that literally would burn the roof of your mouth if you took a gulp.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: There is a video of that  
montanagiant : 7/11/2019 4:57 pm : link
In comment 14496804 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 14496780 montanagiant said:


Quote:


In comment 14496589 BlueLou'sBack said:


Quote:


In comment 14496566 section125 said:


Quote:


In comment 14496539 gmenatlarge said:


Quote:


window, and it is pretty easy to mistake it for the closed windows next to it.



I thought this happened in their room..Saw a picture of the "window." You would have to be a moron to place a child on a railing #1. You would have to be a double moron to place a child on a handle rail and trust any glass, especially when there was none.

They will get a large settlement. Just the way Admiralty Law works.



If Admiralty Law provides the statues by which this negligent gramps can leverage a huge settlement out of the cruise line by dint of a civil suit, then it would also be right if the cruise line officials - who represent the law and law enforcement bodies on board their ship, have the right to criminally prosecute the gramps for negligent manslaughter of his grandchild, I would think.

And FMiC, your thread title is two words too long IMO.

It's a deep issue in our society.


I don't know if that is the case while docked in port. I think the local authorities are in charge. Out at sea, the Captain would be the law



The captain is always in command/responsible for the ship except while in the Panama Canal and entering a drydock. Yes local authorities would have jurisdiction over the investigation and could detain the ship if deemed to have serious safety flaws. At sea the rules/laws of the country of registration would apply.

I never said he wasn't responsible for the ship. But if a crime happens while docked the local authorities would handle it not the ship
RE: I don't even understand why McDs was serving coffee that hot, you  
madgiantscow009 : 7/11/2019 5:00 pm : link
In comment 14496839 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
rarely see it anymore, but I hate when I get coffee that literally would burn the roof of your mouth if you took a gulp.


you should do a test sip before gulping.
This is a good video that explains the coffee lawsuit  
Zeke's Alibi : 7/11/2019 5:01 pm : link
and why people believe it. Hint....corporations got together and pushed falsehoods so it would limit their ability/amounts to get sued. This is still bandied about like it is truth just shows you how effective it was.
Link - ( New Window )
RE: RE: I don't even understand why McDs was serving coffee that hot, you  
Zeke's Alibi : 7/11/2019 5:03 pm : link
In comment 14496847 madgiantscow009 said:
Quote:
In comment 14496839 Zeke's Alibi said:


Quote:


rarely see it anymore, but I hate when I get coffee that literally would burn the roof of your mouth if you took a gulp.



you should do a test sip before gulping.


And the test sip burns your lips/roof of mouth still. Things like food/drink should be served at Temps that are edible without grievous bodily injury.
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