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NFT: Taking Personal Responsibility for Toddlers

FatMan in Charlotte : 7/11/2019 9:51 am
I don't know how many have followed the tragic story of the toddler who plunged to her death on a cruise ship. The initial reports said her Grandfather lost control of her and she slipped from his arms and fell. New information suggests that the Grandfather placed her in front of what he thought was a closed window, but it was open and she fell out.

The family now wants to hold Royal Caribbean liable for the death saying they didn't know the window was open.

I understand this is a tragedy, but why do people wish to deflect blame for their own actions? Those of us with kids know that we were hyper-sensitive about what our toddlers could and couldn't do. What they would put in their mouths. What items were left out for them to get to.

A grandfather places his granddaughter in front of an open window and doesn't realize it and wants to blame the cruise ship??? I'm hoping this case gets thrown out - but events like these can lead to cruise ships locking down all windows and stupid shit like that. All because one guy was too ignorant to realize a window was open.
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LOL..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 7/12/2019 2:43 pm : link
Quote:
And it doesn’t surprise me that you can’t believe your opinion or view is also different than others. You should lose the contrarian bit as it has not shown you well lately...


I certainly believe there are others that hold a different opinion. It's more a disbelief that those people are that fucking stupid. At least those who aren't doing it intentionally like you.

And yes - saying the cruise line is at fault after being shown things on this thread (especially UA's photos) most definitely makes one a contrarian.

You can wear it proudly - and I'm sure you do - as looking like a fucking moron doesn't seem to bother you in the least.
RE: RE: Eh...  
trueblueinpw : 7/12/2019 2:45 pm : link
In comment 14497563 Bill L said:
Quote:

You jumped from a reasonable person standard which is pretty apparent was in place when this incident occurred to examples of gross negligence.

This isn't that.


If you’re reasonable person, but that standard alone doesn’t satisfy me. I honestly haven’t reviewed all the facts of the matter. But I’m entirely comfortable with the concept of an impartial judiciary and apparatus doing so to an enforceable conclusion. Again, to me, this is an example of the system working, not otherwise.
I love when you move to cursing and names...  
Jimmy Googs : 7/12/2019 2:52 pm : link
always shows your losing causes with me. Stay civil in your debates with me because your comical otherwise as mostly a ponderous troll who only plays bully with others...



RE: RE: RE: Eh...  
Bill L : 7/12/2019 2:53 pm : link
In comment 14497592 trueblueinpw said:
Quote:
In comment 14497563 Bill L said:


Quote:



You jumped from a reasonable person standard which is pretty apparent was in place when this incident occurred to examples of gross negligence.

This isn't that.



If you’re reasonable person, but that standard alone doesn’t satisfy me. I honestly haven’t reviewed all the facts of the matter. But I’m entirely comfortable with the concept of an impartial judiciary and apparatus doing so to an enforceable conclusion. Again, to me, this is an example of the system working, not otherwise.


and the fork question?
RE: I'm at a loss..  
trueblueinpw : 7/12/2019 2:58 pm : link
In comment 14497419 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
Here, a toddler died, the grampa wasn’t try to kill the kid, so, I don
Do you expect a 100% safe environment here? The Grandfather set the toddler on a railing that overlooked an open window. He may not have been trying to kill the kid, but the point is that the kid didn't kill herself, nor would've been able to without the assistance of being placed on a railing.

Please help me understand what safeguard the cruise line needs to implement to keep a person from intentionally setting a child on a railing?

The level of safety is adequate to protect against a person unintentionally walking over the railing and falling. Should there be metal bars? Should it be impossible to open windows?

Better yet - why would you have the expectation that the cruise ship needs to have that type of additional security? Because of one person who did a dangerous and stupid thing?


The 100% safe environment is a straw man, so of course not. But an open window large enough to pass through a small child to a drop of more than 100 feet would satisfy my standard of reasonably safe. As far as acceptable standards and an actual solution, I suggest a standard of safety similar to US hotels and apartments.
I am near 40 years  
Bubba : 7/12/2019 3:01 pm : link
in the insurance business. Signs are a double edged sword.
"Beware of Dog" being the classic. When the dog bites someone the blame is cast to the dog owner because he knew he had a vicious dog hence the need to post the sign. One of my favorites (true story) lawn mower company sued because an operator decided to lift it to trim his hedges. He lost control of it and seriously injured himself. The lawsuit indicated there were several warnings posted on the mower but not one saying do not use it to trim hedges. If you post warnings you have to post everything possible. Even then someone will do something not anticipated.

I had a client years ago drive his car into a building. His excuse... the building sticks out to far.

I kid you not and I could do this all day long.

Bottom line, people are free to do stupid things cause harm to selves and others and there is always an excuse and possible scapegoat. If all people owned up to their actions I would have fewer claims.
“not” ^  
trueblueinpw : 7/12/2019 3:02 pm : link
not satisfy
Apparently there is a safety rail  
Bill L : 7/12/2019 3:03 pm : link
so the question is to determine the distance needed to make a child untossable. Which probably depends on the average physique and physical strength of senile, possibly drunk, grandfathers.
Is everybody fucking stupid or something?  
Jimmy Googs : 7/12/2019 3:08 pm : link
Fat man already gave his opinion so that’s the absolute right answer.

Ponderous fuckstick trolls...every damn one of you!
RE: RE: RE: RE: Eh...  
trueblueinpw : 7/12/2019 3:24 pm : link
In comment 14497601 Bill L said:
Quote:
and the fork question?


The fork question is also a straw man, likely with no serious intention of debate, but I’ll bite b/c I’m in SFO with two hours to kill.

The fork in electric socket question requires context and subsequent deliberation. Is the toddler in a day care? A school? A lab or an office complex? Perhaps on an airplane or a train? From where did the fork come and by whom was the fork given to the toddler?

Does personal responsibility completely exonerated and exempt all companies and persons from any and all liability and responsibility for everything? Of course that’s a ridiculous position I’m certain you don’t take. But, to me at least, it’s the other side of the “personal responsibility” argument.

As usual, the answer is somewhere in between. I don’t think taking a toddler to sea makes any sense whatsoever. Less so, to hoist said toddler atop a guard rail in front of an open window. But, the cruise line markets to families and sells tickets to toddlers and old people and so has a responsibility to provide a reasonably safe environment. I think. And as previously said, a window large enough to pass through a small child above more 100 feet of concrete (and open ocean!) doesn’t satisfy my notion of reasonably safe.
How about this one from today?  
BigBlue in Keys : 7/12/2019 3:50 pm : link
You can't fix stupid!
Women arrested driving with pool/kids on roof - ( New Window )
Good post trueblue but  
Jimmy Googs : 7/12/2019 4:47 pm : link
again, the OP said it best that opinions that differ from his are just stupid. So please refrain from any more such posts that do that...


RE: Good post trueblue but  
trueblueinpw : 7/12/2019 4:58 pm : link
In comment 14497699 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
again, the OP said it best that opinions that differ from his are just stupid. So please refrain from any more such posts that do that...



Well, my wife’s plane just landed anyway so my time’s up.
A four foot high railing isn't safe enough for you  
Greg from LI : 7/12/2019 5:03 pm : link
Talk about a "I feel like I'm taking crazy pills" moment.

There is no way for a small child to accidentally fall from that window. None, zero, nada. Have any other children fallen through one of these windows? Doesn't appear so, since there is one indispensable condition for this accident - a man stupid enough to hold a toddler in an open window 100 feet from the ground. Fortunately, few people are that stupid.

How about the railings on the open decks now? We need to fence people in so it feels like a fucking prison ship?
Greg  
Sneakers O'toole : 7/12/2019 5:14 pm : link
People want a bubble wrapped world.
Too funny!  
trueblueinpw : 7/12/2019 6:20 pm : link
Just checked into the Grand Hyatt in SF, we’re on the 18th floor with a balcony. But... the door to the balcony only opens an inch, apparently to keep people from going outside and either falling off or throwing stuff off or otherwise getting in trouble. Karma.
That sums it up  
Sneakers O'toole : 7/12/2019 7:50 pm : link
I want a world where I'm free to enjoy hotel balconies.
Yes that sums it up  
Jimmy Googs : 7/12/2019 9:29 pm : link
alright...
These lawsuits come with consequences  
Sneakers O'toole : 7/13/2019 12:57 am : link
for the rest of us.
Sneakers ....the war on fun is fucking real and has  
Zeke's Alibi : 7/13/2019 1:38 am : link
been going on for years. I went to Preakness the last year you could byob and had a blast. It was like taking a break from society for a day. That is over with now. Fun and enjoyment has been going the wayside for years because we have to kowtow to morons.
LOL..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 7/13/2019 11:56 am : link
Quote:
Is everybody fucking stupid or something?
Jimmy Googs : 7/12/2019 3:08 pm : link : reply
Fat man already gave his opinion so that’s the absolute right answer.

Ponderous fuckstick trolls...every damn one of you!


Not every damn one of you. Just you!

RE: Sneakers ....the war on fun is fucking real and has  
ron mexico : 7/13/2019 12:24 pm : link
In comment 14497920 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
been going on for years. I went to Preakness the last year you could byob and had a blast. It was like taking a break from society for a day. That is over with now. Fun and enjoyment has been going the wayside for years because we have to kowtow to morons.


Please don't tell me the running of the urinals is dead

LOL at yourself chuckles...  
Jimmy Googs : 7/13/2019 1:34 pm : link
You won't even get thru the weekend before you go off and berate the next poster(s) that go contrary with your proactive or reactive views.

it so common that it really isn't ponderous at this point...
A 100% safe environment ?  
Ron from Ninerland : 7/13/2019 11:02 pm : link
No, Its unrealistic to provide a 100% safe environment, but in a controlled vacation experience, like a family oriented cruise ship, resort, hotel, or theme park safety should be the number one priority. From the pictures posted by UAGiant, this design looks like an accident waiting to happen, and its a design I have not seen on NCL, Princess, Holland America or Disney. Its true you can fall off the lifeboat deck into the water, but there are never many people on the life boat deck. There are few other unenclosed areas where you can fall right off the ship and not land elsewhere on the ship . In an observation lounge, the windows should be sealed. On the top deck you should have high barriers except in the back. If you do fall over one of the relatively low railings on the back you will generally land elseware on the ship.

I'm not taking the Grandfather's side. I wouldn't be surprised if the S.O.B. was drunk, but there are a lot of drunk people on cruise ships and that has to be taken into account. One should expect a higher standard of safety on a mega cruise ship then one would expect in a national park, or an adults only vacation
RE: A 100% safe environment ?  
section125 : 7/14/2019 8:15 am : link
In comment 14498314 Ron from Ninerland said:
Quote:
No, Its unrealistic to provide a 100% safe environment, but in a controlled vacation experience, like a family oriented cruise ship, resort, hotel, or theme park safety should be the number one priority. From the pictures posted by UAGiant, this design looks like an accident waiting to happen, and its a design I have not seen on NCL, Princess, Holland America or Disney. Its true you can fall off the lifeboat deck into the water, but there are never many people on the life boat deck. There are few other unenclosed areas where you can fall right off the ship and not land elsewhere on the ship . In an observation lounge, the windows should be sealed. On the top deck you should have high barriers except in the back. If you do fall over one of the relatively low railings on the back you will generally land elsewhere on the ship.

I'm not taking the Grandfather's side. I wouldn't be surprised if the S.O.B. was drunk, but there are a lot of drunk people on cruise ships and that has to be taken into account. One should expect a higher standard of safety on a mega cruise ship then one would expect in a national park, or an adults only vacation


The safety standard is extremely high. And no, observation decks should not be enclosed. There is no place you can fall off a deck unless you try real hard or are impaired and still try real hard.
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