You think he would last long around the likes of Oakley, Davis Bros., Malone, Zo?
To combine topics in this thread, I think the NYK will be an ornery/competitive bunch this year. Good luck if you're a Grayson Allen type and you've got to deal with Morris, Gibson, Portis etc.
Pep actually what I've been reading is he's bad on D. Â
Now given his size & athleticism there's hope, that and the fact he was DPOY in college. Which is what makes this curious. But who knows...
I'm looking forward to seeing him on O of course (huge upgrade for NYK tho not a top PG). But am interested to see the D. I find it hard to understand how a guy gets THAT bad (heavily a positioning & motor thing) after being that good even if it was a lower NCAA conference
I'm not sure that's how it will shake out in terms of 1st team, 2nd team, etc., but that looks like the 15 guys on the team barring injury or trade.
One change to the above is that I'm relatively sure Morris will start over Knox, and I have no problem with that. I think there will only be two of the first and second year guys on the floor at a time, generally. It appears to me that part of the whole idea here has been to give the first and second year guys veteran teammates, and that doesn't work if one unit is young guys and the other unit is the vets.
A lot of this depends upon how Knox shows in training camp. Â
If Knox follows up on summer league by draining the three, driving hard from either side of the court, and showing a little more vision, it will be difficult to keep him as a back-up as a long-term talent. I have always been a believer in Knox as a longer term prospect, given his age and body type. We shall have to see.
I'm not sure that's how it will shake out in terms of 1st team, 2nd team, etc., but that looks like the 15 guys on the team barring injury or trade.
One change to the above is that I'm relatively sure Morris will start over Knox, and I have no problem with that. I think there will only be two of the first and second year guys on the floor at a time, generally. It appears to me that part of the whole idea here has been to give the first and second year guys veteran teammates, and that doesn't work if one unit is young guys and the other unit is the vets.
I was trying to figure it out a bit last night, but it’s hard to find when Ntilikina is going to get minutes. I would assume that Smith Jr and Payton will get all of the minutes at PG.
You then look at the 2 guard, and hopefully Barrett and Trier get the bulk of those minutes. Ellington has gotten over 20 minutes per game for the last 5+ years so he’s going to expect a decently sized role. There also isn’t much time at the 3 because that’s probably going to be a split between Morris, Knox, Barrett.
I feel like the kid has barely gotten a chance, but seems like Frank is already the odd man out.
"but it’s hard to find when Ntilikina is going to get minutes." Â
unless we're running the best practices in the history of basketball he should be getting big minutes in the G-League. He's still very young and he barely played last year. Plenty of current NBA players have gone this route.
DSJ are way better then what we have been trotting out there for the last few years
so they've gone from awful to below average. The position is still big concern.
I won't disagree that PG is a concern until proven otherwise, but this is a commentary on the value of draft picks - DSJ was the 9th pick in 2017 and Payton was the 10th pick in 2014. And of course Frank was the 8th pick in 2017. Yet despite having the three of them - PG is still viewed as below average.
I still think most of you are trying to define positions Â
even if just out of habit, when it's going to be a lot based on the matchup and who fits
For example, most put Morris at 3, yet he's likely to play a fair amount of 4. I wouldn't be surprised of Morris at 5, if they are trying to fill out a small ball, shooting lineup
Also, while outside of EP we're low on PGs, anyone from DSJ, Frank, Trier, RJ, KK, Iggy - likely Ellington & Bullock if not a few more - can bring the ball up. So save full court presses, your 2-3 can play point while DSJ / Frank / any G, even if slotted at PG might still be an off guard / wing
Even back in the day you run 'motion' - simplest 5 man play - and your centers would end up at the arc. Today, that's so much more applicable w/ stretch bigs & positionless ball. I think it's more important to review skill sets than just body size or position fit - speed / FBers, best floor generals after EP, rebounding (not likely to be all that good there), D is gonna be worse. Much more than 1 2 3 4 5 slots it's fits & match-ups on the floor
And of course, who guards who on D will play a huge role too Â
Just one of those guys that hasn't been on my radar. Maybe it was that stupid haircut :) or the fact that he has played on uninteresting teams.
Is my sense of him on point?
Has made himself an adequate shooter.
A hair better than an average athlete.
Above average size makes him a very good rebounder and passer over smaller defenders.
Not a good isolation player, lacks creativity off the bounce.
Better than average defender.
Payton graded as one of the worst defensive PG's in the NBA and per Magic fans has had major trouble staying in front of quick PG's
"Going by these numbers, the Orlando Magic’s sorest area of defense is defending pick-and-roll ball handlers. They have conceded almost 30 more points than an average team would have – good for 25th in the league.
Although there are other areas of defense where they concede more points on a per-possession basis, there are none that have resulted in more total points worse than average. If you had to point to one area of this team’s on-ball defense to fix, it is this one.
Good or bad defense usually happens on a team level. It is rare to pick out one player (especially if that player is not a center) and blame him for a team’s defensive woes.
Scheme plays a major part, and most offensive actions involve multiple defensive players. For example, a drive-and-kick sequence demands a series of rotations from at least two or three defenders. A post-up or isolation involves one primary defender but is often affected by help defenders.
But the Magic’s issues defending the pick-and-roll can be reduced to Payton.
He has conceded nearly 48 points more than an average player would have on the same number of possessions. That is worst in the league by a wide margin. It is particularly astonishing considering he has played nearly 10 fewer games than the rest of the bottom five." Link - ( New Window )
I don’t see how this roster is a 500 or above club. The Vegas over under number is 28. They are going to outperform that by 14 wins? Not to mention win 25 more games than last year. And this team is going to struggle defensively and lacks shooting/ scoring.
This year should be all about improving and developing Barrett/ Knox and Robinson. ( Trier/ Dot/ Frank to a lesser extent). They need those 3 guys to become good nba players. Season should 100% focused on that. None of the other guys they signed matter.
I don’t see how this roster is a 500 or above club. The Vegas over under number is 28. They are going to outperform that by 14 wins? Not to mention win 25 more games than last year. And this team is going to struggle defensively and lacks shooting/ scoring.
This year should be all about improving and developing Barrett/ Knox and Robinson. ( Trier/ Dot/ Frank to a lesser extent). They need those 3 guys to become good nba players. Season should 100% focused on that. None of the other guys they signed matter.
Close to no chance. Even the vets they signed, who has the upside to breakout and carry them? Randle should be the best player this year production wise... that's not a 41+ win team. Odds are they trade off some vets and "Kadeem Allen" types get burn. None of the young players look poised to have monster seasons. The East to have quite a few shitty teams but I'll predict...30-52, which is still +13 wins from last season.
I don’t see how this roster is a 500 or above club. The Vegas over under number is 28. They are going to outperform that by 14 wins? Not to mention win 25 more games than last year. And this team is going to struggle defensively and lacks shooting/ scoring.
This year should be all about improving and developing Barrett/ Knox and Robinson. ( Trier/ Dot/ Frank to a lesser extent). They need those 3 guys to become good nba players. Season should 100% focused on that. None of the other guys they signed matter.
2020 NBA WIN TOTALS ALREADY UP
Team Win Total (PointsBet) 2018-19 Record
Atlanta 32.5 29-53
Boston 44.5 49-33
Brooklyn 47.5 42-40
Charlotte 34.5 39-43
Chicago 28.5 22-60
Cleveland 23.5 19-63
Dallas 41.5 33-49
Denver 50.5 54-28
Detroit 37.5 41-41
Golden State 47.5 57-25
Houston 52.5 53-29
Indiana 47.5 48-34
LA Clippers 49.5 48-34
LA Lakers 54.5 37-45
Memphis 27.5 33-49
Miami 37.5 39-43
Milwaukee 55.5 60-22
Minnesota 34.5 36-46
New Orleans 33.5 33-49
NY Knicks 30.5 17-65
Oklahoma City 46.5 49-33
Orlando 36.5 42-40
Philadelphia 52.5 51-31
Phoenix 25.5 19-63
Portland 45.5 52-29
Sacramento 35.5 39-43
San Antonio 44.5 48-34
Toronto 52.5 58-24
Utah 52.5 50-32
Washington 28.5 32-50 Link - ( New Window )
Yeah, the Knicks would need Barrett to be really good and for Knox and Â
DSJ/Payton to make a leap. And Mitch to stay healthy and improve. All four of those things. Much more likely that we get inconsistent results from them throughout an up and down season.
That said, I'm glad they brought in vets to provide some structure around the young guys. They brought in decent NBA rotation guys and that's a nice upgrade from what they've had the last few years.
30-35 wins, some solid progress from the young guys, trade vets at the deadline for assets and back into the lottery for another chance at a high pick. That's what the plan for the season looks like to me.
Those guys matter too in terms of development and improvement. The Knicks also need this season to get a true evaluation of a lot their young players to determine who has a future and who doesn’t.
I see a lot of people mentioning moving these signed players at the deadline for assets. Who do you project being able to do that with? I hope I’m wrong but I don’t see any of these guys fetching a good return.
I'd say that describing Randle and Kanter as similar based on Â
WS, is really a better indictment on the over simplification that comes from WS.
Randle has developed a three point shot so he won't clog the spacing like Kanter. He's not as bad defensively as Kanter and plays a less critical defensive position. He has a handle and can get to the rack or the line where Kanter has none.
You won't have to take Randle out at crunch time on D, like everyone has had to do with Kanter. Randle is a better all around player.
WS, is really a better indictment on the over simplification that comes from WS.
Randle has developed a three point shot so he won't clog the spacing like Kanter. He's not as bad defensively as Kanter and plays a less critical defensive position. He has a handle and can get to the rack or the line where Kanter has none.
You won't have to take Randle out at crunch time on D, like everyone has had to do with Kanter. Randle is a better all around player.
And yet you’ve yet to explain why the Knicks win total will be significantly better (people talking about .500 or better) aka 24+ more wins. Randle is better, he’s not 5+ wins better (ignoring that’s still nowhere near .500)
PG: major improvement going from a 1 to a 4 (scale of 1-10); Mudiay just an awful player; DSJ/EP should be adequate/average
SG: Trier will get better off a good rookie year, RJB should do significantly better than Dotson
SF: Knox looks significantly better already, Morris major improvement going from a 1 to a 5 (scale of 1-10) over Herzonja
PF: NYK didn't have anything of the quality of Randle, and Portis has talent as well
C: Mitch continues to looks like a major find who at a minimum is a Clint Capela type guy; Gibson will be like Lance Thomas in terms of vet leadership except he has some capability of being productive in an NBA basketball game
I'd sign for 35 wins and positive developmental progress from RJB, KK, MR and a mildly surprising breakout year from either PG.
WS, is really a better indictment on the over simplification that comes from WS.
Randle has developed a three point shot so he won't clog the spacing like Kanter. He's not as bad defensively as Kanter and plays a less critical defensive position. He has a handle and can get to the rack or the line where Kanter has none.
You won't have to take Randle out at crunch time on D, like everyone has had to do with Kanter. Randle is a better all around player.
And yet you’ve yet to explain why the Knicks win total will be significantly better (people talking about .500 or better) aka 24+ more wins. Randle is better, he’s not 5+ wins better (ignoring that’s still nowhere near .500)
How's this? No truly attrocious players: i.e. Mudiay, or Hardaway (46 games), or Herzonja, or Thomas, or Ntilikina. Replace with average players like all the vets signed.
At the time, Fizdales hire was promoted around player development and relationships with top players around the league. The latter part has been a complete non factor obviously. But now with this roster, it’s time for him to deliver on the player development part. Outside of Robinson- which was a big positive- he hadn’t proven much in that department. If he has another bad year, I’d be looking to make a switch. And if this team is really bad without progress from the young players- they should really be looking at cleaning house from Mills on down...
At the time, Fizdales hire was promoted around player development and relationships with top players around the league. The latter part has been a complete non factor obviously. But now with this roster, it’s time for him to deliver on the player development part. Outside of Robinson- which was a big positive- he hadn’t proven much in that department. If he has another bad year, I’d be looking to make a switch. And if this team is really bad without progress from the young players- they should really be looking at cleaning house from Mills on down...
knox so far has shown improvement and he has been working with fizdale since basically the season ended...
Robinson was talked about as a gleague player and he improved greatly...
RE: RE: I'd say that describing Randle and Kanter as similar based on Â
WS, is really a better indictment on the over simplification that comes from WS.
Randle has developed a three point shot so he won't clog the spacing like Kanter. He's not as bad defensively as Kanter and plays a less critical defensive position. He has a handle and can get to the rack or the line where Kanter has none.
You won't have to take Randle out at crunch time on D, like everyone has had to do with Kanter. Randle is a better all around player.
And yet you’ve yet to explain why the Knicks win total will be significantly better (people talking about .500 or better) aka 24+ more wins. Randle is better, he’s not 5+ wins better (ignoring that’s still nowhere near .500)
Well, I'm not one that says the knicks will be 500 or better. I was really just challenging the notion that Kanter and Randle are somehow a relatively even swap. I posted above that I think they're headed for 30-35 wins. Going by win shares, the guys they brought in should get them about 13 games better than the guys they replace. The rest of the variation will depend on the growth, if any, we see from the young guys and what we get from Barrett. Any scenario where they challenge for the 8 seed would mean that the young guys all improved and RJ is playing better than a typical rookie.
but apparently at the same workout, Monta Ellis was trying for a comeback as well
Correct...NO to both. If there's no D we don't want it. And if it's a 34 & 36 yo, there better be a damn good reason even then Amare & Monta Comeback Attempt - ( New Window )
If the Knicks sign Bullock using the room exception as expected they have zero open roster spots anyways.
At the time, Fizdales hire was promoted around player development and relationships with top players around the league. The latter part has been a complete non factor obviously. But now with this roster, it’s time for him to deliver on the player development part. Outside of Robinson- which was a big positive- he hadn’t proven much in that department. If he has another bad year, I’d be looking to make a switch. And if this team is really bad without progress from the young players- they should really be looking at cleaning house from Mills on down...
knox so far has shown improvement and he has been working with fizdale since basically the season ended...
Robinson was talked about as a gleague player and he improved greatly...
I pointed out Robinson-coaching staff deserves credit for the improvement he showed in the season. I would not use Knox as a positive example of player development last year.He was bad and showed little if any progress.
I don't view the Knicks signings as a massive talent upgrade over the roster last year. I just don't see how this team will be any good. Is the group they brought in worth 20-25 more wins more than Vonleh/ Kanter/ Hardaway/ Mudiay?
I don't see anyone saying they are going to be a .500 team. Even those viewing things positively are saying 30-35 wins. I think that's a reasonable target. The team has been upgraded substantially. I mean ... Vonleh vs Randle? Yes, that is a big difference. Morris over last year's version of Knox? That's an upgrade too. DSJ or Payton over Mudiay? Sign me up for that too. Plus we have at least one and maybe two rookies who are likely to contribute.
Multiple posters earlier said this is now a 500 team.
I couldn't stand the guy but I'm not sure RJ is better than Hardaway NEXT year. NBA rookies are typically a net negative.
All fair points and the team is definitely improved. But this was a 17 win team. I don't see any scenario they come close to 41 wins and are probably in the 25-30 win area. I just don't view any of their signings on having that big of an impact on winning.
Multiple posters earlier said this is now a 500 team.
I couldn't stand the guy but I'm not sure RJ is better than Hardaway NEXT year. NBA rookies are typically a net negative.
All fair points and the team is definitely improved. But this was a 17 win team. I don't see any scenario they come close to 41 wins and are probably in the 25-30 win area. I just don't view any of their signings on having that big of an impact on winning.
i see 35 wins and if the young guys take a bigger leap they can sneak into playoffs..
wins this Knicks team is capable of. Yeah they won 17 games last year, but it is basically a completely different team. The only rotation players returning from last year are Robinson, Knox, Trier, and Smith Jr (who only played a small number of games).
Everyone else that figures to be in the rotation is new to the team. We probably have 3 new starters in Randle, Morris, and Barrett. You could make the case going in that those will probably be the 3 best players on the team. On top of that, Portis, Gibson, Ellington, Payton will probably get significant minutes. This team will be much better.
Baring on this year. There was no system at either end of the court, no defined roles and oh yeah the players sucked. Even with all that, there were countless games where they had the lead early in the 4rh and ended up losing. Some veteran leadership and they would have won probably 10 more games. This year, they have a legitimate roster, with vets who can play, young guys who will grow and defined roles and a way to play at both ends. This roster, in the east could push for a playoff spot.
Anyone who watched all of the games last year knows the team was in full tank mode and actually switched up lineups at the end of some games to TRY to lose games. In reality, I think the start number is more like 22 wins. When you consider that 35 wins seems much more attainable. 35 wins is what I think the number will end up being. The talent level is significantly improved and some of the younger players will make jumps.
I do believe the Knicks will have a better team this year, just not with that line-up. The whole point of the vet players imo is to intersperse them with the young players in order to up the level of play.
Just looking at those match-ups I would think THjr would abuse RJ after seeing RJ's defense against summer league guys. Eventually I would bet on RJ being better, but not at this moment. I think Kanter would cause a ton of problems on the glass. I could see Frank's defense and Knox's offense being a wash along with Burke and Smith's offense also cancelling each other out. Randle seems better than Vonleh but if Randle's D is as bad as advertised Vonleh could get his. My point is that I personally don't see a clear cut advantage either way.
I think if, say, Dotson and Morris were in this year's line-up, to add a couple of players who have showed two way ability in the past, it would make the advantages of this year's team more clear. Of course this is just my opinion. As for the wins for this team, I think there is a huge range. I wouldn't be surprised if they were horrible and still a laughing stock or middling and make the playoffs. I am, however, curious to see what happens and hoping for the best.
You think he would last long around the likes of Oakley, Davis Bros., Malone, Zo?
To combine topics in this thread, I think the NYK will be an ornery/competitive bunch this year. Good luck if you're a Grayson Allen type and you've got to deal with Morris, Gibson, Portis etc.
I'm looking forward to seeing him on O of course (huge upgrade for NYK tho not a top PG). But am interested to see the D. I find it hard to understand how a guy gets THAT bad (heavily a positioning & motor thing) after being that good even if it was a lower NCAA conference
Of course Frank...
rj/ trier/ellington/dot
knox/morris/bullock/iggy
randle/portis
robinson/gibson
I'm not sure that's how it will shake out in terms of 1st team, 2nd team, etc., but that looks like the 15 guys on the team barring injury or trade.
One change to the above is that I'm relatively sure Morris will start over Knox, and I have no problem with that. I think there will only be two of the first and second year guys on the floor at a time, generally. It appears to me that part of the whole idea here has been to give the first and second year guys veteran teammates, and that doesn't work if one unit is young guys and the other unit is the vets.
so they've gone from awful to below average. The position is still big concern.
rj/ trier/ellington/dot
knox/morris/bullock/iggy
randle/portis
robinson/gibson
I'm not sure that's how it will shake out in terms of 1st team, 2nd team, etc., but that looks like the 15 guys on the team barring injury or trade.
One change to the above is that I'm relatively sure Morris will start over Knox, and I have no problem with that. I think there will only be two of the first and second year guys on the floor at a time, generally. It appears to me that part of the whole idea here has been to give the first and second year guys veteran teammates, and that doesn't work if one unit is young guys and the other unit is the vets.
I was trying to figure it out a bit last night, but it’s hard to find when Ntilikina is going to get minutes. I would assume that Smith Jr and Payton will get all of the minutes at PG.
You then look at the 2 guard, and hopefully Barrett and Trier get the bulk of those minutes. Ellington has gotten over 20 minutes per game for the last 5+ years so he’s going to expect a decently sized role. There also isn’t much time at the 3 because that’s probably going to be a split between Morris, Knox, Barrett.
I feel like the kid has barely gotten a chance, but seems like Frank is already the odd man out.
Quote:
DSJ are way better then what we have been trotting out there for the last few years
so they've gone from awful to below average. The position is still big concern.
I won't disagree that PG is a concern until proven otherwise, but this is a commentary on the value of draft picks - DSJ was the 9th pick in 2017 and Payton was the 10th pick in 2014. And of course Frank was the 8th pick in 2017. Yet despite having the three of them - PG is still viewed as below average.
For example, most put Morris at 3, yet he's likely to play a fair amount of 4. I wouldn't be surprised of Morris at 5, if they are trying to fill out a small ball, shooting lineup
Also, while outside of EP we're low on PGs, anyone from DSJ, Frank, Trier, RJ, KK, Iggy - likely Ellington & Bullock if not a few more - can bring the ball up. So save full court presses, your 2-3 can play point while DSJ / Frank / any G, even if slotted at PG might still be an off guard / wing
Even back in the day you run 'motion' - simplest 5 man play - and your centers would end up at the arc. Today, that's so much more applicable w/ stretch bigs & positionless ball. I think it's more important to review skill sets than just body size or position fit - speed / FBers, best floor generals after EP, rebounding (not likely to be all that good there), D is gonna be worse. Much more than 1 2 3 4 5 slots it's fits & match-ups on the floor
Good point.
Is my sense of him on point?
Has made himself an adequate shooter.
A hair better than an average athlete.
Above average size makes him a very good rebounder and passer over smaller defenders.
Not a good isolation player, lacks creativity off the bounce.
Better than average defender.
Payton graded as one of the worst defensive PG's in the NBA and per Magic fans has had major trouble staying in front of quick PG's
Although there are other areas of defense where they concede more points on a per-possession basis, there are none that have resulted in more total points worse than average. If you had to point to one area of this team’s on-ball defense to fix, it is this one.
Good or bad defense usually happens on a team level. It is rare to pick out one player (especially if that player is not a center) and blame him for a team’s defensive woes.
Scheme plays a major part, and most offensive actions involve multiple defensive players. For example, a drive-and-kick sequence demands a series of rotations from at least two or three defenders. A post-up or isolation involves one primary defender but is often affected by help defenders.
But the Magic’s issues defending the pick-and-roll can be reduced to Payton.
He has conceded nearly 48 points more than an average player would have on the same number of possessions. That is worst in the league by a wide margin. It is particularly astonishing considering he has played nearly 10 fewer games than the rest of the bottom five."
Link - ( New Window )
This year should be all about improving and developing Barrett/ Knox and Robinson. ( Trier/ Dot/ Frank to a lesser extent). They need those 3 guys to become good nba players. Season should 100% focused on that. None of the other guys they signed matter.
This year should be all about improving and developing Barrett/ Knox and Robinson. ( Trier/ Dot/ Frank to a lesser extent). They need those 3 guys to become good nba players. Season should 100% focused on that. None of the other guys they signed matter.
Close to no chance. Even the vets they signed, who has the upside to breakout and carry them? Randle should be the best player this year production wise... that's not a 41+ win team. Odds are they trade off some vets and "Kadeem Allen" types get burn. None of the young players look poised to have monster seasons. The East to have quite a few shitty teams but I'll predict...30-52, which is still +13 wins from last season.
This year should be all about improving and developing Barrett/ Knox and Robinson. ( Trier/ Dot/ Frank to a lesser extent). They need those 3 guys to become good nba players. Season should 100% focused on that. None of the other guys they signed matter.
randle absolutely matters...
Team Win Total (PointsBet) 2018-19 Record
Atlanta 32.5 29-53
Boston 44.5 49-33
Brooklyn 47.5 42-40
Charlotte 34.5 39-43
Chicago 28.5 22-60
Cleveland 23.5 19-63
Dallas 41.5 33-49
Denver 50.5 54-28
Detroit 37.5 41-41
Golden State 47.5 57-25
Houston 52.5 53-29
Indiana 47.5 48-34
LA Clippers 49.5 48-34
LA Lakers 54.5 37-45
Memphis 27.5 33-49
Miami 37.5 39-43
Milwaukee 55.5 60-22
Minnesota 34.5 36-46
New Orleans 33.5 33-49
NY Knicks 30.5 17-65
Oklahoma City 46.5 49-33
Orlando 36.5 42-40
Philadelphia 52.5 51-31
Phoenix 25.5 19-63
Portland 45.5 52-29
Sacramento 35.5 39-43
San Antonio 44.5 48-34
Toronto 52.5 58-24
Utah 52.5 50-32
Washington 28.5 32-50
Link - ( New Window )
That said, I'm glad they brought in vets to provide some structure around the young guys. They brought in decent NBA rotation guys and that's a nice upgrade from what they've had the last few years.
30-35 wins, some solid progress from the young guys, trade vets at the deadline for assets and back into the lottery for another chance at a high pick. That's what the plan for the season looks like to me.
6.1 WS for Randle, 5.4 for Kanter
Both scorer/rebounders with poor defense. Kanter's obviously worse but you're not talking about a 5+ win swing
6.1 WS for Randle, 5.4 for Kanter
Both scorer/rebounders with poor defense. Kanter's obviously worse but you're not talking about a 5+ win swing
randles offense is more diverse than kantet..
also having a power forward who is average defensively is diffrrent then a 5..
Randle will have mitch at the 5 to help and possibly morris at the 3...
6.1 WS for Randle, 5.4 for Kanter
Both scorer/rebounders with poor defense. Kanter's obviously worse but you're not talking about a 5+ win swing
Kanter's poor defense at PF hurts less than Kanter's at C.
I see a lot of people mentioning moving these signed players at the deadline for assets. Who do you project being able to do that with? I hope I’m wrong but I don’t see any of these guys fetching a good return.
Randle has developed a three point shot so he won't clog the spacing like Kanter. He's not as bad defensively as Kanter and plays a less critical defensive position. He has a handle and can get to the rack or the line where Kanter has none.
You won't have to take Randle out at crunch time on D, like everyone has had to do with Kanter. Randle is a better all around player.
Randle has developed a three point shot so he won't clog the spacing like Kanter. He's not as bad defensively as Kanter and plays a less critical defensive position. He has a handle and can get to the rack or the line where Kanter has none.
You won't have to take Randle out at crunch time on D, like everyone has had to do with Kanter. Randle is a better all around player.
And yet you’ve yet to explain why the Knicks win total will be significantly better (people talking about .500 or better) aka 24+ more wins. Randle is better, he’s not 5+ wins better (ignoring that’s still nowhere near .500)
SG: Trier will get better off a good rookie year, RJB should do significantly better than Dotson
SF: Knox looks significantly better already, Morris major improvement going from a 1 to a 5 (scale of 1-10) over Herzonja
PF: NYK didn't have anything of the quality of Randle, and Portis has talent as well
C: Mitch continues to looks like a major find who at a minimum is a Clint Capela type guy; Gibson will be like Lance Thomas in terms of vet leadership except he has some capability of being productive in an NBA basketball game
I'd sign for 35 wins and positive developmental progress from RJB, KK, MR and a mildly surprising breakout year from either PG.
Correct...NO to both. If there's no D we don't want it. And if it's a 34 & 36 yo, there better be a damn good reason even then
Amare & Monta Comeback Attempt - ( New Window )
Quote:
WS, is really a better indictment on the over simplification that comes from WS.
Randle has developed a three point shot so he won't clog the spacing like Kanter. He's not as bad defensively as Kanter and plays a less critical defensive position. He has a handle and can get to the rack or the line where Kanter has none.
You won't have to take Randle out at crunch time on D, like everyone has had to do with Kanter. Randle is a better all around player.
And yet you’ve yet to explain why the Knicks win total will be significantly better (people talking about .500 or better) aka 24+ more wins. Randle is better, he’s not 5+ wins better (ignoring that’s still nowhere near .500)
How's this? No truly attrocious players: i.e. Mudiay, or Hardaway (46 games), or Herzonja, or Thomas, or Ntilikina. Replace with average players like all the vets signed.
Improvement from knox, smith in better shape, mitchell robinson another year under his belt..
i see 35 wins
knox so far has shown improvement and he has been working with fizdale since basically the season ended...
Robinson was talked about as a gleague player and he improved greatly...
Quote:
WS, is really a better indictment on the over simplification that comes from WS.
Randle has developed a three point shot so he won't clog the spacing like Kanter. He's not as bad defensively as Kanter and plays a less critical defensive position. He has a handle and can get to the rack or the line where Kanter has none.
You won't have to take Randle out at crunch time on D, like everyone has had to do with Kanter. Randle is a better all around player.
And yet you’ve yet to explain why the Knicks win total will be significantly better (people talking about .500 or better) aka 24+ more wins. Randle is better, he’s not 5+ wins better (ignoring that’s still nowhere near .500)
Well, I'm not one that says the knicks will be 500 or better. I was really just challenging the notion that Kanter and Randle are somehow a relatively even swap. I posted above that I think they're headed for 30-35 wins. Going by win shares, the guys they brought in should get them about 13 games better than the guys they replace. The rest of the variation will depend on the growth, if any, we see from the young guys and what we get from Barrett. Any scenario where they challenge for the 8 seed would mean that the young guys all improved and RJ is playing better than a typical rookie.
Correct...NO to both. If there's no D we don't want it. And if it's a 34 & 36 yo, there better be a damn good reason even then Amare & Monta Comeback Attempt - ( New Window )
If the Knicks sign Bullock using the room exception as expected they have zero open roster spots anyways.
Randle not going to repeat his 21 9 and 3? and not improve?
I dont get how all the moves the knicks made people still expect 20 to 25 wins
Quote:
At the time, Fizdales hire was promoted around player development and relationships with top players around the league. The latter part has been a complete non factor obviously. But now with this roster, it’s time for him to deliver on the player development part. Outside of Robinson- which was a big positive- he hadn’t proven much in that department. If he has another bad year, I’d be looking to make a switch. And if this team is really bad without progress from the young players- they should really be looking at cleaning house from Mills on down...
knox so far has shown improvement and he has been working with fizdale since basically the season ended...
Robinson was talked about as a gleague player and he improved greatly...
I pointed out Robinson-coaching staff deserves credit for the improvement he showed in the season. I would not use Knox as a positive example of player development last year.He was bad and showed little if any progress.
I don't view the Knicks signings as a massive talent upgrade over the roster last year. I just don't see how this team will be any good. Is the group they brought in worth 20-25 more wins more than Vonleh/ Kanter/ Hardaway/ Mudiay?
Portis and morris are not better than vonleh?
randle is not better than kanter?
rj is not better than hardaway?
come on you are not being fair..
which is a better starting lineup..
burke, hardaway, frank, vonleh, kanter or
smith, barrett, knox, randle, robinson..
Portis and morris are not better than vonleh?
randle is not better than kanter?
rj is not better than hardaway?
come on you are not being fair..
which is a better starting lineup..
burke, hardaway, frank, vonleh, kanter or
smith, barrett, knox, randle, robinson..
You are en fuego today. Well thought out posts.
Portis and morris are not better than vonleh?
randle is not better than kanter?
rj is not better than hardaway?
come on you are not being fair..
which is a better starting lineup..
burke, hardaway, frank, vonleh, kanter or
smith, barrett, knox, randle, robinson..
Multiple posters earlier said this is now a 500 team.
I couldn't stand the guy but I'm not sure RJ is better than Hardaway NEXT year. NBA rookies are typically a net negative.
All fair points and the team is definitely improved. But this was a 17 win team. I don't see any scenario they come close to 41 wins and are probably in the 25-30 win area. I just don't view any of their signings on having that big of an impact on winning.
Quote:
but knox has not shown improvement?
Portis and morris are not better than vonleh?
randle is not better than kanter?
rj is not better than hardaway?
come on you are not being fair..
which is a better starting lineup..
burke, hardaway, frank, vonleh, kanter or
smith, barrett, knox, randle, robinson..
Multiple posters earlier said this is now a 500 team.
I couldn't stand the guy but I'm not sure RJ is better than Hardaway NEXT year. NBA rookies are typically a net negative.
All fair points and the team is definitely improved. But this was a 17 win team. I don't see any scenario they come close to 41 wins and are probably in the 25-30 win area. I just don't view any of their signings on having that big of an impact on winning.
i see 35 wins and if the young guys take a bigger leap they can sneak into playoffs..
I think thisnbn yesr with the vets they added everyone will have a role and it will be more defined
Lol this is true and it isn’t that close.
Everyone else that figures to be in the rotation is new to the team. We probably have 3 new starters in Randle, Morris, and Barrett. You could make the case going in that those will probably be the 3 best players on the team. On top of that, Portis, Gibson, Ellington, Payton will probably get significant minutes. This team will be much better.
Portis and morris are not better than vonleh?
randle is not better than kanter?
rj is not better than hardaway?
come on you are not being fair..
which is a better starting lineup..
burke, hardaway, frank, vonleh, kanter or
smith, barrett, knox, randle, robinson..
I do believe the Knicks will have a better team this year, just not with that line-up. The whole point of the vet players imo is to intersperse them with the young players in order to up the level of play.
Just looking at those match-ups I would think THjr would abuse RJ after seeing RJ's defense against summer league guys. Eventually I would bet on RJ being better, but not at this moment. I think Kanter would cause a ton of problems on the glass. I could see Frank's defense and Knox's offense being a wash along with Burke and Smith's offense also cancelling each other out. Randle seems better than Vonleh but if Randle's D is as bad as advertised Vonleh could get his. My point is that I personally don't see a clear cut advantage either way.
I think if, say, Dotson and Morris were in this year's line-up, to add a couple of players who have showed two way ability in the past, it would make the advantages of this year's team more clear. Of course this is just my opinion. As for the wins for this team, I think there is a huge range. I wouldn't be surprised if they were horrible and still a laughing stock or middling and make the playoffs. I am, however, curious to see what happens and hoping for the best.