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NFT: Are the Knicks Getting Marcus Morris now?

robbieballs2003 : 7/11/2019 7:36 pm
SA rescinded their offer to Morris per Woj and agrees to a deal with Trey Lyles.
Signed already  
Strahan91 : 7/11/2019 7:38 pm : link
:)
.  
Anakim : 7/11/2019 7:38 pm : link
Marcus Morris plans to sign a one-year, $15M deal with the Knicks after reopening his agreement with the Spurs, per @ShamsCharania
Knicks get him for 15  
robbieballs2003 : 7/11/2019 7:38 pm : link
.
I don't know  
Anakim : 7/11/2019 7:40 pm : link
I think we're really lacking PFs...
..  
nygiants16 : 7/11/2019 7:54 pm : link
Smith/payton/frank
rj/ trier/ellington/dot
knox/morris/bullock/iggy
randle/portis
robinson/gibson

Bigs are all interchangeable and can play together..

I could see some small ball with randle at 5 and morris at the 4 with knox at the 3...
He'll  
Jon in NYC : 7/11/2019 7:54 pm : link
start at the 3. We have a really deep team now which is weird. Probably 14 legitimate rotation players if you include guys like Ellington, Trier, Dotson, and Frank. Not a lot of high end starters mind you, but legitimate NBA guys for sure.
This is now a .500 team, I think.  
manh george : 7/11/2019 8:12 pm : link
A big part of last year's messes was the extreme lack of depth. The Knicks would have pockets of decent play, but they couldn't sustain.

And with all of these young kids, they could be better at the end of the year than at the beginning, just as other teams are wearing down.

Btw, I still think Knox is going to be a top-end player, with time. He is still so young, and his 3-point and driving games are really coming around.

Smith says that he has been working, hard, on his shooting, changing his stroke completely. And Trier could be a lot better with experience. This team lacks stars, but is full, top to bottom. Perhaps that leads to some trades later on.

Open question: how good can Brazdeikis be? I know this is ridiculously optimistic, but could he be a Kevin Love type?
RE: This is now a .500 team, I think.  
nygiants16 : 7/11/2019 8:15 pm : link
In comment 14496966 manh george said:
Quote:
A big part of last year's messes was the extreme lack of depth. The Knicks would have pockets of decent play, but they couldn't sustain.

And with all of these young kids, they could be better at the end of the year than at the beginning, just as other teams are wearing down.

Btw, I still think Knox is going to be a top-end player, with time. He is still so young, and his 3-point and driving games are really coming around.

Smith says that he has been working, hard, on his shooting, changing his stroke completely. And Trier could be a lot better with experience. This team lacks stars, but is full, top to bottom. Perhaps that leads to some trades later on.

Open question: how good can Brazdeikis be? I know this is ridiculously optimistic, but could he be a Kevin Love type?


iggy is the hard nose player every fan and teammate loves that will give you good minutes in spurts...

i dont think he is anything more than that..he will be a guy who can come in and give a spark when needed
zero chance he is a kevin love...  
Italianju : 7/11/2019 8:21 pm : link
if for no other reason then the fact that i think he is done growing, ha.

This is a really good signing. The knicks have added a ton of talent. Now will Fitz make a rotation and stick with it to allow these guys to get some rhythm together. Or will we be playing 14 guys a night and play 65 starting lineups. I think Knox can still earn the start at the 3, but Morris will play.
and i dont like to pound the  
Italianju : 7/11/2019 8:23 pm : link
media loves to mock the knicks drum. But i think its funny that ESPN is reporting it as Spurs withdraw offer when it sounds like this was 100% morris choosing the knicks offer. So the spurs withdrew it cause he didnt want to take it. Like the guy who is getting fired yelling "no i quit!"
Wojbomb Westbrook to Houston for CP3 + a bunch of firsts  
Eric on Li : 7/11/2019 8:28 pm : link
pretty good trade for both teams i think.
OKC rolling in picks while they ride out CP3's contract  
Eric on Li : 7/11/2019 8:29 pm : link
Adrian Wojnarowski
@wojespn
The Oklahoma City Thunder have agreed to trade Russell Westbrook to the Houston Rockets for Chris Paul, first-round picks in 2024 and 2026, pick swaps in 2021 and 2025, league sources tell ESPN.
I donít get this for OKC  
Strahan91 : 7/11/2019 8:31 pm : link
They couldnít find someone else offering the same value without having to take on CP3?
RE: I donít get this for OKC  
Eric on Li : 7/11/2019 8:32 pm : link
In comment 14496980 Strahan91 said:
Quote:
They couldnít find someone else offering the same value without having to take on CP3?


I doubt it - Westbrook's contract is a ticking timebomb. Miami was interested but there were some who were speculating they were going to ask OKC to kick in picks to take Westbrook's $200m off their hands.
RE: I donít get this for OKC  
Nine-Tails : 7/11/2019 8:34 pm : link
In comment 14496980 Strahan91 said:
Quote:
They couldnít find someone else offering the same value without having to take on CP3?


Agree, still on the hook for Paul for three more years at a crippling salary. Heís declining fast. If they want to get rid of Paul, theyíre going attach some of the assists they acquired .
Starting lineup  
Chris684 : 7/11/2019 8:35 pm : link
Smith
RJ
Morris
Randle
Robinson

That is a very decent and very intriguing lineup. Iím excited to see what happens.
RE: and i dont like to pound the  
nygiants16 : 7/11/2019 8:39 pm : link
In comment 14496975 Italianju said:
Quote:
media loves to mock the knicks drum. But i think its funny that ESPN is reporting it as Spurs withdraw offer when it sounds like this was 100% morris choosing the knicks offer. So the spurs withdrew it cause he didnt want to take it. Like the guy who is getting fired yelling "no i quit!"


buford probably leaks info to woj so hr has to spin it that way
Where is  
XBRONX : 7/11/2019 8:56 pm : link
Kadeem Allen?
RE: Where is  
Del Shofner : 7/11/2019 9:02 pm : link
In comment 14497007 XBRONX said:
Quote:
Kadeem Allen?


Westchester?
RE: Starting lineup  
Del Shofner : 7/11/2019 9:06 pm : link
In comment 14496990 Chris684 said:
Quote:
Smith
RJ
Morris
Randle
Robinson

That is a very decent and very intriguing lineup. Iím excited to see what happens.


Same here...
RE: Starting lineup  
Eli Wilson : 7/11/2019 9:10 pm : link
In comment 14496990 Chris684 said:
Quote:
Smith
RJ
Morris
Randle
Robinson

That is a very decent and very intriguing lineup. Iím excited to see what happens.


I can't see Knox on the bench after starting all last year.

I think Morris, Knox and Randle is the starting front court.
RE: ..  
JustaDiscussion : 7/11/2019 9:20 pm : link
In comment 14496951 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
Smith/payton/frank
rj/ trier/ellington/dot
knox/morris/bullock/iggy
randle/portis
robinson/gibson

Bigs are all interchangeable and can play together..

I could see some small ball with randle at 5 and morris at the 4 with knox at the 3...


This seems to undervalue Bullock, Ignas, Ellington, Dotson, and Frank imo. For example, I personally would not be willing to say Trier is better than Dotson, let alone placing Trier 2 rungs higher than Dotson on a depth chart. It might work out this way, but I also wouldn't be surprised if the exact opposite of this line-up happened considering how similar I view all of the players on this team.
RE: RE: Starting lineup  
adamg : 7/11/2019 9:33 pm : link
In comment 14497018 Eli Wilson said:
Quote:
In comment 14496990 Chris684 said:


Quote:


Smith
RJ
Morris
Randle
Robinson

That is a very decent and very intriguing lineup. Iím excited to see what happens.



I can't see Knox on the bench after starting all last year.

I think Morris, Knox and Randle is the starting front court.


No Robinson?
RE: RE: RE: Starting lineup  
larryflower37 : 7/11/2019 9:39 pm : link
In comment 14497032 adamg said:
Quote:
In comment 14497018 Eli Wilson said:


Quote:


In comment 14496990 Chris684 said:


Quote:


Smith
RJ
Morris
Randle
Robinson

That is a very decent and very intriguing lineup. Iím excited to see what happens.



I can't see Knox on the bench after starting all last year.

I think Morris, Knox and Randle is the starting front court.



No Robinson?


Robinson has had a foul issue and hasn't been able to stay on the floor. He will definitely be a rotation player with the current bigs.
others have said this but it bears repeating - Fiz is on the spot now  
Del Shofner : 7/11/2019 9:57 pm : link
- this is not a bad group of NBA players and it's up to Fiz to get a good rotation together and coach the team to a lot more wins this year.

There are no superstars on this team but there is depth, with relatively young vets who have proven NBA production mixed with first and second year players who have shown some potential. There is size. There are question marks, sure (depth at C, 3-point shooting and true PG play), but it's up to Fiz to minimize the weak spots and have the team play to its strengths.

I think it's going to be a fun year.
Glad they added him.  
bceagle05 : 7/11/2019 9:58 pm : link
If RJ proves capable of some ball handling responsibilities, you could close games with RJ, Dot/Trier (for more shooting), Morris, Randle, Mitch. Iíd enjoy that.
RE: others have said this but it bears repeating - Fiz is on the spot now  
Ron Johnson : 7/11/2019 10:43 pm : link
In comment 14497041 Del Shofner said:
Quote:
- this is not a bad group of NBA players and it's up to Fiz to get a good rotation together and coach the team to a lot more wins this year.

There are no superstars on this team but there is depth, with relatively young vets who have proven NBA production mixed with first and second year players who have shown some potential. There is size. There are question marks, sure (depth at C, 3-point shooting and true PG play), but it's up to Fiz to minimize the weak spots and have the team play to its strengths.

I think it's going to be a fun year.


If Fiz doesnít work out, Hire the Texas Tech coach. He made it to the finals with little talent and had his team playing outstanding defense
Iím waiting for Greg  
bceagle05 : 7/11/2019 10:51 pm : link
to post the Lance Thomas Appreciation Thread.
RE: Iím waiting for Greg  
Del Shofner : 7/11/2019 10:56 pm : link
In comment 14497060 bceagle05 said:
Quote:
to post the Lance Thomas Appreciation Thread.


haha - is it clear Lance is actually gone? Don't see a spot for him with all the forwards being signed, but as others have pointed out, even after a nuclear blast there would be two survivors, cockroaches and Lance being on the Knicks.
Can't they flip this guy at the trade deadline for  
xman : 7/11/2019 10:57 pm : link
draft choices?
Too bad the Knicks couldn't pull out the rug on Bobby Portis.  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 7/11/2019 11:00 pm : link
...
RE: Too bad the Knicks couldn't pull out the rug on Bobby Portis.  
bceagle05 : 7/11/2019 11:10 pm : link
Yeah, Portis and Ellington seem like pointless signings. We got a little carried away with these vet FAs.
Unless the Bullock signing falls apart completely  
bceagle05 : 7/11/2019 11:14 pm : link
I think weíve reached our roster limit. Lance will be a ďspecial advisorĒ soon enough.
Ellington is a vet. I don't mind having him to compete with/teach  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 7/11/2019 11:15 pm : link
the kids. He's getting a career high payday and I seriously doubt he'll be tripping over playing time.

Portis and Morris are redundant, although MM is clearly better. Portis also doesn't seem like a guy who will be cool with languishing on the bench.
Portis is our best backup 5  
Italianju : 7/11/2019 11:17 pm : link
Right now. I mean randle or taj in a small ball lineup I guess.

Plus hopefully we are moving some of the vets a couple months into the season.
Weíre either really playing positionless ball  
Phil in LA : 7/11/2019 11:45 pm : link
Or we are playing with positions, theyíre just all 4ís.
RE: RE: This is now a .500 team, I think.  
DCOrange : 7/12/2019 12:49 am : link
In comment 14496967 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
In comment 14496966 manh george said:


Quote:


A big part of last year's messes was the extreme lack of depth. The Knicks would have pockets of decent play, but they couldn't sustain.

And with all of these young kids, they could be better at the end of the year than at the beginning, just as other teams are wearing down.

Btw, I still think Knox is going to be a top-end player, with time. He is still so young, and his 3-point and driving games are really coming around.

Smith says that he has been working, hard, on his shooting, changing his stroke completely. And Trier could be a lot better with experience. This team lacks stars, but is full, top to bottom. Perhaps that leads to some trades later on.

Open question: how good can Brazdeikis be? I know this is ridiculously optimistic, but could he be a Kevin Love type?



iggy is the hard nose player every fan and teammate loves that will give you good minutes in spurts...

i dont think he is anything more than that..he will be a guy who can come in and give a spark when needed


I assume you have watched hours of film to come up with that career prediction.
so i cant give my opinion?  
nygiants16 : 7/12/2019 7:05 am : link
if he becomes kevin love halleluja, but i dont think he is that type of player...

sorry just my opinion..
Looking at the Big picture  
Dave on the UWS : 7/12/2019 7:10 am : link
I think the Knicks have had a GREAT off-season. They were never getting Max players in reality without making the roster more attractive. Theyíve added a LOT of talent, on short contracts that can be used multiple ways in trades. These guys will help the team be better, maybe a LOT better, while also helping the 4 principle young guys (Mitch, Knox, RJ and Smith) learn their craft and grow. Itís all on the coaching staff now. The front office did their job. Now Fitz has to show he can coach. Looking at the East, no reason this canít be a 6-8 seed. Some of these vets (like Randle) may be pet of the long term solution. Theyíve done a good job of cleaning up a decade + of mess (similar to what DG has done). If the coaches can coach then the fall and winter should be more entertaining.
RE: Can't they flip this guy at the trade deadline for  
mfsd : 7/12/2019 7:10 am : link
In comment 14497065 xman said:
Quote:
draft choices?


I'm thinking (hoping) that's in part the plan...load up on some assets to be sold at auction for draft picks.

Otherwise, I can't see a real plan other than competing for the 8 seed. We've seen that movie before.
RE: RE: Can't they flip this guy at the trade deadline for  
nygiants16 : 7/12/2019 7:19 am : link
In comment 14497108 mfsd said:
Quote:
In comment 14497065 xman said:


Quote:


draft choices?



I'm thinking (hoping) that's in part the plan...load up on some assets to be sold at auction for draft picks.

Otherwise, I can't see a real plan other than competing for the 8 seed. We've seen that movie before.


no you have seen it with old vets with no future...

Knicks could make the 7th or 8th seed with 19 and 20 year old players with some vets sprinkled in..

RE: RE: RE: Can't they flip this guy at the trade deadline for  
mfsd : 7/12/2019 7:28 am : link
In comment 14497110 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
In comment 14497108 mfsd said:


Quote:


In comment 14497065 xman said:


Quote:


draft choices?



I'm thinking (hoping) that's in part the plan...load up on some assets to be sold at auction for draft picks.

Otherwise, I can't see a real plan other than competing for the 8 seed. We've seen that movie before.



no you have seen it with old vets with no future...

Knicks could make the 7th or 8th seed with 19 and 20 year old players with some vets sprinkled in..


Yup true...we actually have some kids worth developing, no albatross contracts blowing up the future cap, and all our draft picks plus extras from the Porz trade. Just being a cranky Knicks fan on a Friday morning
RE: I don't know  
Pep22 : 7/12/2019 7:52 am : link
In comment 14496944 Anakim said:
Quote:
I think we're really lacking PFs...


This is not < 2010. They're not all PFs, they're all BIGs. There is 96 minutes a night to allocate among the 5 guys. Randle will get 30 of that. Gibson might get 10. There's 56 left and that isn't factoring the idea that Morris will get minutes at the 3 also. With Morris, your adding toughness, shooting and a trade asset.
I like this signing a lot. The knicks have been soft for a while now  
Heisenberg : 7/12/2019 8:18 am : link
The guys they brought in will change that.

All they guys they brought in are trade-able assets. I know it seems like a lot of 4's but we had Luke Kornet and Lance Thomas playing minutes at 4 last year. Portis and Gibson are basically backup 5s. And Morris can also play SF. I wouldn't worry about minutes because a) competition is good and b) I'm pretty sure one or more of these guys will get traded to a contender at the deadline.

Perry added a lot of experience and toughness. Just playing against these guys in practice will be good for the young guys.
also, there's nothing wrong with competing for the 8 seed.  
Heisenberg : 7/12/2019 8:20 am : link
The "Process" is dead with the new lottery odds. And this team needs to learn how to win games. Contending is a long way off.
Given the circumstances  
Chris684 : 7/12/2019 8:27 am : link
of KD going down the same sackless route as LeBron (plus I didn't even want him once he got injured), I'd say the Knicks have had an overall positive offseason.

RE: I like this signing a lot. The knicks have been soft for a while now  
Pep22 : 7/12/2019 8:28 am : link
In comment 14497135 Heisenberg said:
Quote:
The guys they brought in will change that.

All they guys they brought in are trade-able assets. I know it seems like a lot of 4's but we had Luke Kornet and Lance Thomas playing minutes at 4 last year. Portis and Gibson are basically backup 5s. And Morris can also play SF. I wouldn't worry about minutes because a) competition is good and b) I'm pretty sure one or more of these guys will get traded to a contender at the deadline.

Perry added a lot of experience and toughness. Just playing against these guys in practice will be good for the young guys.


Well said, you're right on the $.
Elsewhere in the Association.....  
Greg from LI : 7/12/2019 9:11 am : link
Grayson Allen remains a piece of shit
Link - ( New Window )
RE: Can't they flip this guy at the trade deadline for  
Enzo : 7/12/2019 9:18 am : link
In comment 14497065 xman said:
Quote:
draft choices?

only if he agrees to it. In the NBA, players on one-year deals have no-trade clauses.
Allen..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 7/12/2019 9:20 am : link
just doesn't get it.

The guy is just a fucking trainwreck.
RE: RE: Can't they flip this guy at the trade deadline for  
nygiants16 : 7/12/2019 9:21 am : link
In comment 14497172 Enzo said:
Quote:
In comment 14497065 xman said:


Quote:


draft choices?


only if he agrees to it. In the NBA, players on one-year deals have no-trade clauses.


that is only for players who sign 1 year deals with their previous team
RE: This is now a .500 team, I think.  
Enzo : 7/12/2019 9:21 am : link
In comment 14496966 manh george said:
Quote:
A big part of last year's messes was the extreme lack of depth. The Knicks would have pockets of decent play, but they couldn't sustain.

PG play is still way too much of a question mark to think they reach around 41 wins IMO.
RE: Elsewhere in the Association.....  
Giantology : 7/12/2019 9:22 am : link
In comment 14497167 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
Grayson Allen remains a piece of shit Link - ( New Window )


This thug needs to be ejected by the NBA before he seriously injures someone, or, someone seriously injures him.
plus why would Morris...  
Italianju : 7/12/2019 9:25 am : link
not want to be traded anyway. I mean we can pretend he really wanted to come to the Knicks, but we know he came cause we offered him 15 mill for a year. So im sure he would welcome the chance to go to a contender
RE: Elsewhere in the Association.....  
larryflower37 : 7/12/2019 9:32 am : link
In comment 14497167 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
Grayson Allen remains a piece of shit Link - ( New Window )

Someone needs to punch him in the mouth. He would stop this nonsense if he met an Oakley type player.
RE: RE: This is now a .500 team, I think.  
Jon in NYC : 7/12/2019 9:35 am : link
In comment 14497180 Enzo said:
Quote:
In comment 14496966 manh george said:


Quote:


A big part of last year's messes was the extreme lack of depth. The Knicks would have pockets of decent play, but they couldn't sustain.


PG play is still way too much of a question mark to think they reach around 41 wins IMO.


I'm all in on Elfrid Payton. God knows I've been wrong before, but before his injury I think he was going to have a breakout year for the Pels. By the time he came back AD had totally derailed their season.
Payton and  
TommyWiseau : 7/12/2019 9:57 am : link
DSJ are way better then what we have been trotting out there for the last few years
Payton  
Pep22 : 7/12/2019 10:04 am : link
Just one of those guys that hasn't been on my radar. Maybe it was that stupid haircut :) or the fact that he has played on uninteresting teams.

Is my sense of him on point?

Has made himself an adequate shooter.
A hair better than an average athlete.
Above average size makes him a very good rebounder and passer over smaller defenders.
Not a good isolation player, lacks creativity off the bounce.
Better than average defender.
Grayson Allen is a perfect example of how soft  
Chris684 : 7/12/2019 10:07 am : link
this league now is..

You think he would last long around the likes of Oakley, Davis Bros., Malone, Zo?
Payton is interesting.  
Heisenberg : 7/12/2019 10:29 am : link
Not an efficient or explosive scorer, but the rest of his game is good. Conversely, DSJ is explosive but very inefficient and no one respects his 3pt shot yet.

Competition is good.

Both of them are better than Mudiay.
RE: Grayson Allen is a perfect example of how soft  
Pep22 : 7/12/2019 10:29 am : link
In comment 14497216 Chris684 said:
Quote:
this league now is..

You think he would last long around the likes of Oakley, Davis Bros., Malone, Zo?


To combine topics in this thread, I think the NYK will be an ornery/competitive bunch this year. Good luck if you're a Grayson Allen type and you've got to deal with Morris, Gibson, Portis etc.
Pep actually what I've been reading is he's bad on D.  
ChaChing : 7/12/2019 10:35 am : link
Now given his size & athleticism there's hope, that and the fact he was DPOY in college. Which is what makes this curious. But who knows...

I'm looking forward to seeing him on O of course (huge upgrade for NYK tho not a top PG). But am interested to see the D. I find it hard to understand how a guy gets THAT bad (heavily a positioning & motor thing) after being that good even if it was a lower NCAA conference

Of course Frank...
someone posted this above -  
Del Shofner : 7/12/2019 10:40 am : link
Smith/payton/frank
rj/ trier/ellington/dot
knox/morris/bullock/iggy
randle/portis
robinson/gibson

I'm not sure that's how it will shake out in terms of 1st team, 2nd team, etc., but that looks like the 15 guys on the team barring injury or trade.

One change to the above is that I'm relatively sure Morris will start over Knox, and I have no problem with that. I think there will only be two of the first and second year guys on the floor at a time, generally. It appears to me that part of the whole idea here has been to give the first and second year guys veteran teammates, and that doesn't work if one unit is young guys and the other unit is the vets.
A lot of this depends upon how Knox shows in training camp.  
manh george : 7/12/2019 10:46 am : link
If Knox follows up on summer league by draining the three, driving hard from either side of the court, and showing a little more vision, it will be difficult to keep him as a back-up as a long-term talent. I have always been a believer in Knox as a longer term prospect, given his age and body type. We shall have to see.
RE: Payton and  
Enzo : 7/12/2019 10:48 am : link
In comment 14497204 TommyWiseau said:
Quote:
DSJ are way better then what we have been trotting out there for the last few years

so they've gone from awful to below average. The position is still big concern.
RE: someone posted this above -  
Mike in NJ : 7/12/2019 11:04 am : link
In comment 14497253 Del Shofner said:
Quote:
Smith/payton/frank
rj/ trier/ellington/dot
knox/morris/bullock/iggy
randle/portis
robinson/gibson

I'm not sure that's how it will shake out in terms of 1st team, 2nd team, etc., but that looks like the 15 guys on the team barring injury or trade.

One change to the above is that I'm relatively sure Morris will start over Knox, and I have no problem with that. I think there will only be two of the first and second year guys on the floor at a time, generally. It appears to me that part of the whole idea here has been to give the first and second year guys veteran teammates, and that doesn't work if one unit is young guys and the other unit is the vets.


I was trying to figure it out a bit last night, but itís hard to find when Ntilikina is going to get minutes. I would assume that Smith Jr and Payton will get all of the minutes at PG.

You then look at the 2 guard, and hopefully Barrett and Trier get the bulk of those minutes. Ellington has gotten over 20 minutes per game for the last 5+ years so heís going to expect a decently sized role. There also isnít much time at the 3 because thatís probably going to be a split between Morris, Knox, Barrett.

I feel like the kid has barely gotten a chance, but seems like Frank is already the odd man out.
"but itís hard to find when Ntilikina is going to get minutes."  
Enzo : 7/12/2019 11:09 am : link
unless we're running the best practices in the history of basketball he should be getting big minutes in the G-League. He's still very young and he barely played last year. Plenty of current NBA players have gone this route.
RE: RE: Payton and  
Del Shofner : 7/12/2019 11:16 am : link
In comment 14497263 Enzo said:
Quote:
In comment 14497204 TommyWiseau said:


Quote:


DSJ are way better then what we have been trotting out there for the last few years


so they've gone from awful to below average. The position is still big concern.


I won't disagree that PG is a concern until proven otherwise, but this is a commentary on the value of draft picks - DSJ was the 9th pick in 2017 and Payton was the 10th pick in 2014. And of course Frank was the 8th pick in 2017. Yet despite having the three of them - PG is still viewed as below average.
I still think most of you are trying to define positions  
ChaChing : 7/12/2019 11:18 am : link
even if just out of habit, when it's going to be a lot based on the matchup and who fits

For example, most put Morris at 3, yet he's likely to play a fair amount of 4. I wouldn't be surprised of Morris at 5, if they are trying to fill out a small ball, shooting lineup

Also, while outside of EP we're low on PGs, anyone from DSJ, Frank, Trier, RJ, KK, Iggy - likely Ellington & Bullock if not a few more - can bring the ball up. So save full court presses, your 2-3 can play point while DSJ / Frank / any G, even if slotted at PG might still be an off guard / wing

Even back in the day you run 'motion' - simplest 5 man play - and your centers would end up at the arc. Today, that's so much more applicable w/ stretch bigs & positionless ball. I think it's more important to review skill sets than just body size or position fit - speed / FBers, best floor generals after EP, rebounding (not likely to be all that good there), D is gonna be worse. Much more than 1 2 3 4 5 slots it's fits & match-ups on the floor
And of course, who guards who on D will play a huge role too  
ChaChing : 7/12/2019 11:20 am : link
NYK has few good defenders, so I bet that becomes way more important than position slots as Fiz picks his 5 at any given moment
RE: And of course, who guards who on D will play a huge role too  
Del Shofner : 7/12/2019 11:40 am : link
In comment 14497309 ChaChing said:
Quote:
NYK has few good defenders, so I bet that becomes way more important than position slots as Fiz picks his 5 at any given moment


Good point.
RE: Payton  
DanMetroMan : 7/12/2019 12:13 pm : link
In comment 14497212 Pep22 said:
Quote:
Just one of those guys that hasn't been on my radar. Maybe it was that stupid haircut :) or the fact that he has played on uninteresting teams.

Is my sense of him on point?

Has made himself an adequate shooter.
A hair better than an average athlete.
Above average size makes him a very good rebounder and passer over smaller defenders.
Not a good isolation player, lacks creativity off the bounce.
Better than average defender.


Payton graded as one of the worst defensive PG's in the NBA and per Magic fans has had major trouble staying in front of quick PG's
.  
DanMetroMan : 7/12/2019 12:14 pm : link
"Going by these numbers, the Orlando Magicís sorest area of defense is defending pick-and-roll ball handlers. They have conceded almost 30 more points than an average team would have Ė good for 25th in the league.

Although there are other areas of defense where they concede more points on a per-possession basis, there are none that have resulted in more total points worse than average. If you had to point to one area of this teamís on-ball defense to fix, it is this one.

Good or bad defense usually happens on a team level. It is rare to pick out one player (especially if that player is not a center) and blame him for a teamís defensive woes.

Scheme plays a major part, and most offensive actions involve multiple defensive players. For example, a drive-and-kick sequence demands a series of rotations from at least two or three defenders. A post-up or isolation involves one primary defender but is often affected by help defenders.

But the Magicís issues defending the pick-and-roll can be reduced to Payton.

He has conceded nearly 48 points more than an average player would have on the same number of possessions. That is worst in the league by a wide margin. It is particularly astonishing considering he has played nearly 10 fewer games than the rest of the bottom five."
Link - ( New Window )
Knicks  
TyreeHelmet : 7/12/2019 12:18 pm : link
I donít see how this roster is a 500 or above club. The Vegas over under number is 28. They are going to outperform that by 14 wins? Not to mention win 25 more games than last year. And this team is going to struggle defensively and lacks shooting/ scoring.

This year should be all about improving and developing Barrett/ Knox and Robinson. ( Trier/ Dot/ Frank to a lesser extent). They need those 3 guys to become good nba players. Season should 100% focused on that. None of the other guys they signed matter.
RE: Knicks  
DanMetroMan : 7/12/2019 12:24 pm : link
In comment 14497353 TyreeHelmet said:
Quote:
I donít see how this roster is a 500 or above club. The Vegas over under number is 28. They are going to outperform that by 14 wins? Not to mention win 25 more games than last year. And this team is going to struggle defensively and lacks shooting/ scoring.

This year should be all about improving and developing Barrett/ Knox and Robinson. ( Trier/ Dot/ Frank to a lesser extent). They need those 3 guys to become good nba players. Season should 100% focused on that. None of the other guys they signed matter.


Close to no chance. Even the vets they signed, who has the upside to breakout and carry them? Randle should be the best player this year production wise... that's not a 41+ win team. Odds are they trade off some vets and "Kadeem Allen" types get burn. None of the young players look poised to have monster seasons. The East to have quite a few shitty teams but I'll predict...30-52, which is still +13 wins from last season.
RE: Knicks  
nygiants16 : 7/12/2019 12:25 pm : link
In comment 14497353 TyreeHelmet said:
Quote:
I donít see how this roster is a 500 or above club. The Vegas over under number is 28. They are going to outperform that by 14 wins? Not to mention win 25 more games than last year. And this team is going to struggle defensively and lacks shooting/ scoring.

This year should be all about improving and developing Barrett/ Knox and Robinson. ( Trier/ Dot/ Frank to a lesser extent). They need those 3 guys to become good nba players. Season should 100% focused on that. None of the other guys they signed matter.


randle absolutely matters...

.  
DanMetroMan : 7/12/2019 12:28 pm : link
2020 NBA WIN TOTALS ALREADY UP
Team Win Total (PointsBet) 2018-19 Record
Atlanta 32.5 29-53
Boston 44.5 49-33
Brooklyn 47.5 42-40
Charlotte 34.5 39-43
Chicago 28.5 22-60
Cleveland 23.5 19-63
Dallas 41.5 33-49
Denver 50.5 54-28
Detroit 37.5 41-41
Golden State 47.5 57-25
Houston 52.5 53-29
Indiana 47.5 48-34
LA Clippers 49.5 48-34
LA Lakers 54.5 37-45
Memphis 27.5 33-49
Miami 37.5 39-43
Milwaukee 55.5 60-22
Minnesota 34.5 36-46
New Orleans 33.5 33-49
NY Knicks 30.5 17-65
Oklahoma City 46.5 49-33
Orlando 36.5 42-40
Philadelphia 52.5 51-31
Phoenix 25.5 19-63
Portland 45.5 52-29
Sacramento 35.5 39-43
San Antonio 44.5 48-34
Toronto 52.5 58-24
Utah 52.5 50-32
Washington 28.5 32-50
Link - ( New Window )
Yeah, the Knicks would need Barrett to be really good and for Knox and  
Heisenberg : 7/12/2019 12:29 pm : link
DSJ/Payton to make a leap. And Mitch to stay healthy and improve. All four of those things. Much more likely that we get inconsistent results from them throughout an up and down season.

That said, I'm glad they brought in vets to provide some structure around the young guys. They brought in decent NBA rotation guys and that's a nice upgrade from what they've had the last few years.

30-35 wins, some solid progress from the young guys, trade vets at the deadline for assets and back into the lottery for another chance at a high pick. That's what the plan for the season looks like to me.
100%  
DanMetroMan : 7/12/2019 12:31 pm : link
not shitting on Randle but I fail to see how adding him significantly changes the win totals vs. what Kanter did last year.

6.1 WS for Randle, 5.4 for Kanter

Both scorer/rebounders with poor defense. Kanter's obviously worse but you're not talking about a 5+ win swing
Randle is a solid NBA player worth his contract  
Ten Ton Hammer : 7/12/2019 12:33 pm : link
But he's not someone who's going to change the complexion of a roster.
I  
DanMetroMan : 7/12/2019 12:35 pm : link
don't think many neutral observers have the Knicks +24 wins over last season with the off-season they had and young talent they have.
RE: 100%  
nygiants16 : 7/12/2019 12:38 pm : link
In comment 14497374 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
not shitting on Randle but I fail to see how adding him significantly changes the win totals vs. what Kanter did last year.

6.1 WS for Randle, 5.4 for Kanter

Both scorer/rebounders with poor defense. Kanter's obviously worse but you're not talking about a 5+ win swing


randles offense is more diverse than kantet..

also having a power forward who is average defensively is diffrrent then a 5..

Randle will have mitch at the 5 to help and possibly morris at the 3...

RE: 100%  
Jon in NYC : 7/12/2019 12:40 pm : link
In comment 14497374 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
not shitting on Randle but I fail to see how adding him significantly changes the win totals vs. what Kanter did last year.

6.1 WS for Randle, 5.4 for Kanter

Both scorer/rebounders with poor defense. Kanter's obviously worse but you're not talking about a 5+ win swing


Kanter's poor defense at PF hurts less than Kanter's at C.
Randle/DSJ  
TyreeHelmet : 7/12/2019 12:43 pm : link
Those guys matter too in terms of development and improvement. The Knicks also need this season to get a true evaluation of a lot their young players to determine who has a future and who doesnít.

I see a lot of people mentioning moving these signed players at the deadline for assets. Who do you project being able to do that with? I hope Iím wrong but I donít see any of these guys fetching a good return.
I'd say that describing Randle and Kanter as similar based on  
Heisenberg : 7/12/2019 12:53 pm : link
WS, is really a better indictment on the over simplification that comes from WS.

Randle has developed a three point shot so he won't clog the spacing like Kanter. He's not as bad defensively as Kanter and plays a less critical defensive position. He has a handle and can get to the rack or the line where Kanter has none.

You won't have to take Randle out at crunch time on D, like everyone has had to do with Kanter. Randle is a better all around player.
and lets be real  
nygiants16 : 7/12/2019 12:56 pm : link
Kanter is not close to the offensive player randle is..
RE: I'd say that describing Randle and Kanter as similar based on  
DanMetroMan : 7/12/2019 1:25 pm : link
In comment 14497399 Heisenberg said:
Quote:
WS, is really a better indictment on the over simplification that comes from WS.

Randle has developed a three point shot so he won't clog the spacing like Kanter. He's not as bad defensively as Kanter and plays a less critical defensive position. He has a handle and can get to the rack or the line where Kanter has none.

You won't have to take Randle out at crunch time on D, like everyone has had to do with Kanter. Randle is a better all around player.


And yet youíve yet to explain why the Knicks win total will be significantly better (people talking about .500 or better) aka 24+ more wins. Randle is better, heís not 5+ wins better (ignoring thatís still nowhere near .500)
.  
Pep22 : 7/12/2019 1:32 pm : link
PG: major improvement going from a 1 to a 4 (scale of 1-10); Mudiay just an awful player; DSJ/EP should be adequate/average

SG: Trier will get better off a good rookie year, RJB should do significantly better than Dotson

SF: Knox looks significantly better already, Morris major improvement going from a 1 to a 5 (scale of 1-10) over Herzonja

PF: NYK didn't have anything of the quality of Randle, and Portis has talent as well

C: Mitch continues to looks like a major find who at a minimum is a Clint Capela type guy; Gibson will be like Lance Thomas in terms of vet leadership except he has some capability of being productive in an NBA basketball game

I'd sign for 35 wins and positive developmental progress from RJB, KK, MR and a mildly surprising breakout year from either PG.
Random rumor, gossip...they reported Amare  
ChaChing : 7/12/2019 1:37 pm : link
but apparently at the same workout, Monta Ellis was trying for a comeback as well

Correct...NO to both. If there's no D we don't want it. And if it's a 34 & 36 yo, there better be a damn good reason even then

Amare & Monta Comeback Attempt - ( New Window )
RE: RE: I'd say that describing Randle and Kanter as similar based on  
Pep22 : 7/12/2019 1:41 pm : link
In comment 14497433 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
In comment 14497399 Heisenberg said:


Quote:


WS, is really a better indictment on the over simplification that comes from WS.

Randle has developed a three point shot so he won't clog the spacing like Kanter. He's not as bad defensively as Kanter and plays a less critical defensive position. He has a handle and can get to the rack or the line where Kanter has none.

You won't have to take Randle out at crunch time on D, like everyone has had to do with Kanter. Randle is a better all around player.



And yet youíve yet to explain why the Knicks win total will be significantly better (people talking about .500 or better) aka 24+ more wins. Randle is better, heís not 5+ wins better (ignoring thatís still nowhere near .500)


How's this? No truly attrocious players: i.e. Mudiay, or Hardaway (46 games), or Herzonja, or Thomas, or Ntilikina. Replace with average players like all the vets signed.
knicks bench will be a ton better this year  
nygiants16 : 7/12/2019 1:42 pm : link
People also discounting portis who will give you 14 and 8 and 40 percent from 3..

Improvement from knox, smith in better shape, mitchell robinson another year under his belt..

i see 35 wins
Fizdale  
TyreeHelmet : 7/12/2019 1:44 pm : link
At the time, Fizdales hire was promoted around player development and relationships with top players around the league. The latter part has been a complete non factor obviously. But now with this roster, itís time for him to deliver on the player development part. Outside of Robinson- which was a big positive- he hadnít proven much in that department. If he has another bad year, Iíd be looking to make a switch. And if this team is really bad without progress from the young players- they should really be looking at cleaning house from Mills on down...
RE: Fizdale  
nygiants16 : 7/12/2019 1:47 pm : link
In comment 14497465 TyreeHelmet said:
Quote:
At the time, Fizdales hire was promoted around player development and relationships with top players around the league. The latter part has been a complete non factor obviously. But now with this roster, itís time for him to deliver on the player development part. Outside of Robinson- which was a big positive- he hadnít proven much in that department. If he has another bad year, Iíd be looking to make a switch. And if this team is really bad without progress from the young players- they should really be looking at cleaning house from Mills on down...


knox so far has shown improvement and he has been working with fizdale since basically the season ended...

Robinson was talked about as a gleague player and he improved greatly...

RE: RE: I'd say that describing Randle and Kanter as similar based on  
Heisenberg : 7/12/2019 1:48 pm : link
In comment 14497433 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
In comment 14497399 Heisenberg said:


Quote:


WS, is really a better indictment on the over simplification that comes from WS.

Randle has developed a three point shot so he won't clog the spacing like Kanter. He's not as bad defensively as Kanter and plays a less critical defensive position. He has a handle and can get to the rack or the line where Kanter has none.

You won't have to take Randle out at crunch time on D, like everyone has had to do with Kanter. Randle is a better all around player.



And yet youíve yet to explain why the Knicks win total will be significantly better (people talking about .500 or better) aka 24+ more wins. Randle is better, heís not 5+ wins better (ignoring thatís still nowhere near .500)


Well, I'm not one that says the knicks will be 500 or better. I was really just challenging the notion that Kanter and Randle are somehow a relatively even swap. I posted above that I think they're headed for 30-35 wins. Going by win shares, the guys they brought in should get them about 13 games better than the guys they replace. The rest of the variation will depend on the growth, if any, we see from the young guys and what we get from Barrett. Any scenario where they challenge for the 8 seed would mean that the young guys all improved and RJ is playing better than a typical rookie.
RE: Random rumor, gossip...they reported Amare  
Strahan91 : 7/12/2019 2:06 pm : link
In comment 14497448 ChaChing said:
Quote:
but apparently at the same workout, Monta Ellis was trying for a comeback as well

Correct...NO to both. If there's no D we don't want it. And if it's a 34 & 36 yo, there better be a damn good reason even then Amare & Monta Comeback Attempt - ( New Window )

If the Knicks sign Bullock using the room exception as expected they have zero open roster spots anyways.
for those saying  
nygiants16 : 7/12/2019 2:09 pm : link
they think 20 to 25 wins, are you expecting no improvement from the young guys? are you expecting the signings to give you nothing?

Randle not going to repeat his 21 9 and 3? and not improve?

I dont get how all the moves the knicks made people still expect 20 to 25 wins
RE: RE: Fizdale  
TyreeHelmet : 7/12/2019 2:18 pm : link
In comment 14497474 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
In comment 14497465 TyreeHelmet said:


Quote:


At the time, Fizdales hire was promoted around player development and relationships with top players around the league. The latter part has been a complete non factor obviously. But now with this roster, itís time for him to deliver on the player development part. Outside of Robinson- which was a big positive- he hadnít proven much in that department. If he has another bad year, Iíd be looking to make a switch. And if this team is really bad without progress from the young players- they should really be looking at cleaning house from Mills on down...



knox so far has shown improvement and he has been working with fizdale since basically the season ended...

Robinson was talked about as a gleague player and he improved greatly...


I pointed out Robinson-coaching staff deserves credit for the improvement he showed in the season. I would not use Knox as a positive example of player development last year.He was bad and showed little if any progress.

I don't view the Knicks signings as a massive talent upgrade over the roster last year. I just don't see how this team will be any good. Is the group they brought in worth 20-25 more wins more than Vonleh/ Kanter/ Hardaway/ Mudiay?
^^^^  
Del Shofner : 7/12/2019 2:23 pm : link
I don't see anyone saying they are going to be a .500 team. Even those viewing things positively are saying 30-35 wins. I think that's a reasonable target. The team has been upgraded substantially. I mean ... Vonleh vs Randle? Yes, that is a big difference. Morris over last year's version of Knox? That's an upgrade too. DSJ or Payton over Mudiay? Sign me up for that too. Plus we have at least one and maybe two rookies who are likely to contribute.
i know it is just summer league  
nygiants16 : 7/12/2019 2:26 pm : link
but knox has not shown improvement?

Portis and morris are not better than vonleh?

randle is not better than kanter?

rj is not better than hardaway?

come on you are not being fair..

which is a better starting lineup..

burke, hardaway, frank, vonleh, kanter or

smith, barrett, knox, randle, robinson..
RE: i know it is just summer league  
Pep22 : 7/12/2019 2:35 pm : link
In comment 14497556 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
but knox has not shown improvement?

Portis and morris are not better than vonleh?

randle is not better than kanter?

rj is not better than hardaway?

come on you are not being fair..

which is a better starting lineup..

burke, hardaway, frank, vonleh, kanter or

smith, barrett, knox, randle, robinson..


You are en fuego today. Well thought out posts.
RE: i know it is just summer league  
TyreeHelmet : 7/12/2019 2:40 pm : link
In comment 14497556 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
but knox has not shown improvement?

Portis and morris are not better than vonleh?

randle is not better than kanter?

rj is not better than hardaway?

come on you are not being fair..

which is a better starting lineup..

burke, hardaway, frank, vonleh, kanter or

smith, barrett, knox, randle, robinson..


Multiple posters earlier said this is now a 500 team.

I couldn't stand the guy but I'm not sure RJ is better than Hardaway NEXT year. NBA rookies are typically a net negative.

All fair points and the team is definitely improved. But this was a 17 win team. I don't see any scenario they come close to 41 wins and are probably in the 25-30 win area. I just don't view any of their signings on having that big of an impact on winning.
the knicks bench  
nygiants16 : 7/12/2019 2:44 pm : link
is better than last years knicks starters..
RE: RE: i know it is just summer league  
nygiants16 : 7/12/2019 2:45 pm : link
In comment 14497581 TyreeHelmet said:
Quote:
In comment 14497556 nygiants16 said:


Quote:


but knox has not shown improvement?

Portis and morris are not better than vonleh?

randle is not better than kanter?

rj is not better than hardaway?

come on you are not being fair..

which is a better starting lineup..

burke, hardaway, frank, vonleh, kanter or

smith, barrett, knox, randle, robinson..



Multiple posters earlier said this is now a 500 team.

I couldn't stand the guy but I'm not sure RJ is better than Hardaway NEXT year. NBA rookies are typically a net negative.

All fair points and the team is definitely improved. But this was a 17 win team. I don't see any scenario they come close to 41 wins and are probably in the 25-30 win area. I just don't view any of their signings on having that big of an impact on winning.


i see 35 wins and if the young guys take a bigger leap they can sneak into playoffs..
and 1 more thing  
nygiants16 : 7/12/2019 2:47 pm : link
the 17 wins last year is hard to judge because Fiz was constantly changing the lineups and letting knox take his lumps..

I think thisnbn yesr with the vets they added everyone will have a role and it will be more defined
RE: the knicks bench  
Jon in NYC : 7/12/2019 2:55 pm : link
In comment 14497589 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
is better than last years knicks starters..


Lol this is true and it isnít that close.
I think last year is pretty irrelevant when trying to guess how many  
Mike in NJ : 7/12/2019 4:52 pm : link
wins this Knicks team is capable of. Yeah they won 17 games last year, but it is basically a completely different team. The only rotation players returning from last year are Robinson, Knox, Trier, and Smith Jr (who only played a small number of games).

Everyone else that figures to be in the rotation is new to the team. We probably have 3 new starters in Randle, Morris, and Barrett. You could make the case going in that those will probably be the 3 best players on the team. On top of that, Portis, Gibson, Ellington, Payton will probably get significant minutes. This team will be much better.
Last year has virtually NO  
Dave on the UWS : 7/12/2019 6:24 pm : link
Baring on this year. There was no system at either end of the court, no defined roles and oh yeah the players sucked. Even with all that, there were countless games where they had the lead early in the 4rh and ended up losing. Some veteran leadership and they would have won probably 10 more games. This year, they have a legitimate roster, with vets who can play, young guys who will grow and defined roles and a way to play at both ends. This roster, in the east could push for a playoff spot.
Oh and using the projected win totals  
Dave on the UWS : 7/12/2019 6:27 pm : link
above, the 6,7,8 seeds would have 36-38 wins. They project the Knicks at 30.5. Not a huge chasm.
Everyone says we are starting from 17 wins.  
Chris L. : 7/12/2019 7:08 pm : link
Anyone who watched all of the games last year knows the team was in full tank mode and actually switched up lineups at the end of some games to TRY to lose games. In reality, I think the start number is more like 22 wins. When you consider that 35 wins seems much more attainable. 35 wins is what I think the number will end up being. The talent level is significantly improved and some of the younger players will make jumps.
RE: i know it is just summer league  
JustaDiscussion : 7/12/2019 9:10 pm : link
In comment 14497556 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
but knox has not shown improvement?

Portis and morris are not better than vonleh?

randle is not better than kanter?

rj is not better than hardaway?

come on you are not being fair..

which is a better starting lineup..

burke, hardaway, frank, vonleh, kanter or

smith, barrett, knox, randle, robinson..


I do believe the Knicks will have a better team this year, just not with that line-up. The whole point of the vet players imo is to intersperse them with the young players in order to up the level of play.

Just looking at those match-ups I would think THjr would abuse RJ after seeing RJ's defense against summer league guys. Eventually I would bet on RJ being better, but not at this moment. I think Kanter would cause a ton of problems on the glass. I could see Frank's defense and Knox's offense being a wash along with Burke and Smith's offense also cancelling each other out. Randle seems better than Vonleh but if Randle's D is as bad as advertised Vonleh could get his. My point is that I personally don't see a clear cut advantage either way.

I think if, say, Dotson and Morris were in this year's line-up, to add a couple of players who have showed two way ability in the past, it would make the advantages of this year's team more clear. Of course this is just my opinion. As for the wins for this team, I think there is a huge range. I wouldn't be surprised if they were horrible and still a laughing stock or middling and make the playoffs. I am, however, curious to see what happens and hoping for the best.
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