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Just a note on armchair QB'ing....

Britt in VA : 7/14/2019 5:34 pm
I see this Warren Sharpe guy post a lot on Twitter. Stats guy, "film study" guy supposedly.

He posted about this play a couple of hours ago, with video:

Quote:

Warren Sharp
@SharpFootball
What was Eli Manning doing?

3rd & goal: Odell Beckham is inexplicably left wide open for the easiest passing TD vs the #27 pass D... but with plenty of time on the play clock, Eli fails to audible & instead runs Saquon into a loaded box of the #11 run D.


I remember this play well. It seemed like a bad miss at the time, and as you can imagine it was well discussed here.

Then I noticed Kurt Warner actually replied to this guy.

Quote:
Kurt Warner
@kurt13warner

3h
Replying to
@SharpFootball
and
@EDnSantaPaula
How is it a loaded box? 6 blockers and 6 defenders? Guy on outside to right is insignificant to run to left... only thing against his was the front! He looks at BOX & if 6v6 u run it, donít even consider changing unless u recognize uncovered man!


Then a fan responds:

Quote:
Joseph Raycraft
@gofastjoey

3h
Replying to
@kurt13warner

@SharpFootball
and
@EDnSantaPaula
but isnt the point him missing the uncovered man? who, in this case, happens to be one of the best in the league


Quote:
Kurt Warner
@kurt13warner
Replying to
@gofastjoey

@SharpFootball
and
@EDnSantaPaula
Not really - bc when condensed like that in tight RZ - to attack that small area w/ an audible is hard to do! The best they could of hoped for is eye contact & pop up & hit it... but what if the QB thinks his WR sees it & doesnít & he forgets run to pop to OBJ & he goes to block!


Anyways, here's the thread with video. This one seemed obvious, but maybe things aren't as always as obvious as they seem.

Link - ( New Window )
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4950 to go....  
Britt in VA : 7/15/2019 10:02 am : link
.
RE: RE: Neither.  
Klaatu : 7/15/2019 10:03 am : link
In comment 14498964 BH28 said:
Quote:
In comment 14498956 Britt in VA said:


Quote:
.



So then what is the point?


As Britt said above:

Quote:
My point being, this play... This one singular play, was pretty much a cut and dried example of how Manning "doesn't have it". In the eyes of some, it was undeniable proof. So I'm just pointing out the nuance, all these months later. Or rather, Kurt Warner did to Mr. Sharpe.
...  
christian : 7/15/2019 10:06 am : link
Isn't that the play where the coach literally said "throw it to Beckham?"
RE: ...  
Britt in VA : 7/15/2019 10:08 am : link
In comment 14498979 christian said:
Quote:
Isn't that the play where the coach literally said "throw it to Beckham?"


Do you want to go around in circles or do you want to go ahead and acknowledge what most on here already know that what Warren Sharp just did on twitter yesterday is a common occurrence right here on this board?

We can get cute and cherry pick all day long, but it would be a lot easier to just acknowledge that the sentiment exists and get on with it.
What Does It Matter  
Lambuth_Special : 7/15/2019 10:16 am : link
Whether X or Y happened on a particular play?

The numbers themselves have been mediocre-at-best for going on three years now, and so has the W-L record with the exception of 2016.

Perceptions will only get better if both improve; someone's misdiagnoses of a play isn't going to move the needle.
RE: RE: ...  
christian : 7/15/2019 10:19 am : link
In comment 14498981 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 14498979 christian said:


Quote:


Isn't that the play where the coach literally said "throw it to Beckham?"



Do you want to go around in circles or do you want to go ahead and acknowledge what most on here already know that what Warren Sharp just did on twitter yesterday is a common occurrence right here on this board?

We can get cute and cherry pick all day long, but it would be a lot easier to just acknowledge that the sentiment exists and get on with it.


I'm not denying that all -- I think plenty of folks post emotional opinions as fact, and exaggerate the thoughts of others as well to support their claims.

I think you inject that type of thinking into your posts on Manning quite frequently and it's the same type of logical fallacy.

Incomplete and unsubstantiated opinion. I think that's exact what you did, posting a thread about a play where the coach literally in the moment criticized Manning as evidence of some deeper trend to unfairly get after Manning.
What I just dug up for you....  
Britt in VA : 7/15/2019 10:26 am : link
was independent of the threadstart, and rather a response to you asking for a "tinge of evidence" that people use a single play to definitively state whether a player is done.

I could dig up other examples. You and I both know that, they wouldn't be hard to find. Just seems unnecessary.
That was just the first one that popped up.
RE: Creepy to bring up a game like that, get it wrong and  
dep026 : 7/15/2019 10:26 am : link
In comment 14498960 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
most importantly leave out where you apologized profusely the next day as to the way you acted on the game thread...


I got it wrong??? Really... you didnít say it was Eliís fault for OBJ stopping when he thought it was open? I remember you specifically saying it didnít matter what Eli thought. He should have thrown it when he wasnít open and not read the defense and that you and youíre drunken buddies in the section agreed. And when people said that Witten blames OBJ, you dismissed it.

I got it wrong? Hmmmm...

Quote:
Iím at the game chucklehead. This is easy to see when guys are running free and get ignored.

Eli has been under pressure too but he has no interest to look downfield either. None


Quote:
Nice throw to OBJ
Jimmy Googs : 10/22/2018 9:21 pm : link
there.

Lord...


Quote:
RE: I'll take what witten
Jimmy Googs : 10/22/2018 9:28 pm : link
In comment 14140485 crick n NC said:
Quote:
Says over the experts here.

Eli holds the ball and gets bitched at, he checks it down and gets bitched at


Typical. Defenders of the Faith...unite



Quote:
What a joke.
Jimmy Googs : 10/22/2018 9:39 pm : link
He was wide open and needed the ball thrown to him. It would have bern a TD. Case closed.

Everybody in my section said same thing...



Now Iím sure youíre going to spin this shit as if you never said it... and make up shit as if you know what youíre talking about. But you were wrong again. Itís a common theme.

Pages 14-18 if you want to read your moronic takes.


LOL at the chucklehead... - ( New Window )
RE: RE: RE: ...  
BlueLou'sBack : 7/15/2019 11:13 am : link
In comment 14498961 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 14498937 christian said:...

Personally, I feel Manning is so over analyzed he's actually underrated at this point, and I don't even think he's very good.

On this play, it made me remember the many anecdotes from Burress and Toomer on their non-verbal, unscripted communication. Things like head nods, or risking motion penalties to getting the QBs attention if wide open.

I suspect you need an line you explicitly trust to play that game in a game.


If your take is that it boils down to "trust" you've 100% missed the point. The issue being discussed, as far as the play itself is concerned, has nothing at all to do with "trust" and everything to do with knowledge and communication among 11 people on a football field.
Warren not so Sharpe  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 7/15/2019 11:41 am : link
Is also making the implausible assumption that SF is completely ignoring the Giants #1 superstar receiver. Preposterous.
Good grief  
Thegratefulhead : 7/15/2019 12:47 pm : link
Ignore the one game, ignore one play. It is stupid. Eli deserves criticism for his poor performances, just like he deserves praise for his exceptional performances. All of us on both sides of this argument have called each others' takes stupid, if not directly called each other stupid. We will NEVER see eye to eye on this topic on this site because of the baggage. I can see both side of the argument. Neither side deserves to claim the moral high ground. Eli and the Giant's performance have been poor over the last 5 years as a whole. There will be outlier seasons and games. When you look it at as a whole, from management to the players, including Eli, it has not been good enough. So, we are all mad , argue about the cause, and insult one another. We are bunch of of great people.
Hahahahaha!!!!!  
Dave in Hoboken : 7/15/2019 12:48 pm : link
.
And here comes more  
dep026 : 7/15/2019 1:02 pm : link
People who analyze without a clue...
The discussion..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 7/15/2019 1:05 pm : link
on outliers is a funny one here.

Because there are posters who call the two SB wins outliers and spend a lot of time trying to defend that position.

There's always reference to "both sides" on Eli, but the motivation for one side to admire him is fairly easy to figure out and rationalize.

the side that bashes him is the side that is a lot harder to figure out. What's the motivation?
RE: The discussion..  
dep026 : 7/15/2019 1:09 pm : link
In comment 14499125 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
on outliers is a funny one here.

Because there are posters who call the two SB wins outliers and spend a lot of time trying to defend that position.

There's always reference to "both sides" on Eli, but the motivation for one side to admire him is fairly easy to figure out and rationalize.

the side that bashes him is the side that is a lot harder to figure out. What's the motivation?


To prove they were right in 2004 that we gave up too much for him.
RE: RE: RE: RE: ...  
christian : 7/15/2019 1:16 pm : link
In comment 14499030 BlueLou'sBack said:
Quote:
In comment 14498961 christian said:


Quote:


In comment 14498937 christian said:...

Personally, I feel Manning is so over analyzed he's actually underrated at this point, and I don't even think he's very good.

On this play, it made me remember the many anecdotes from Burress and Toomer on their non-verbal, unscripted communication. Things like head nods, or risking motion penalties to getting the QBs attention if wide open.

I suspect you need an line you explicitly trust to play that game in a game.



If your take is that it boils down to "trust" you've 100% missed the point. The issue being discussed, as far as the play itself is concerned, has nothing at all to do with "trust" and everything to do with knowledge and communication among 11 people on a football field.


I have literally no idea what you are referring to, I'm simply noting if players are going to go off script and the other 9 guys *not* know it, the QB has to trust the line will hold up.

This is something Manning has expressed he's done with some regularity with his receivers.
RE: The discussion..  
Thegratefulhead : 7/15/2019 1:40 pm : link
In comment 14499125 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
on outliers is a funny one here.

Because there are posters who call the two SB wins outliers and spend a lot of time trying to defend that position.

There's always reference to "both sides" on Eli, but the motivation for one side to admire him is fairly easy to figure out and rationalize.

the side that bashes him is the side that is a lot harder to figure out. What's the motivation?
They want to win and think Eli is a large part of the reason why the Giants are losing. There is reasonable evidence to back up those claims. All evidence is ridiculed, and players current and past, analysts and journalists that criticize Eli are discarded. There are reasonable explanations for Eli's poor performance. This is discarded by the other side and here we are. I agree that some here appear to hate Eli. Is this because they really hate the guy or because people treat them as less than human here because they dare to criticize him? People have gotten so deep into their narratives that they cannot see anything but their own point of view.
greatfulhead  
ron mexico : 7/15/2019 1:46 pm : link
well said
That's a fair assessment but I don't agree about being stuck....  
Britt in VA : 7/15/2019 2:29 pm : link
in a narrative.

To a man, I can't think of any pro-Eli guy that was upset when we drafted Daniel Jones, or even before when it was becoming clear we were planning for the future of the position post Manning.

What is hard to understand is the relentless bashing of him on the way out. And it is relentless, and it's not confined to this board either. What prompts a guy like Warren Sharp to post a single play from November in July, not to mention a game Manning won with a 4th quarter comeback game winning drive and TD throw? Where does that come from?
Has there been a lot of recent Eli bashing?  
Lambuth_Special : 7/15/2019 2:43 pm : link
After the post-draft furor, it's been pretty quiet around here regarding Eli, outside of Shurmur's comments at the end of OTAs. And even that thread dealt with reading the tea leaves of what Shurmur said rather than discussing Eli's play.

RE: Has there been a lot of recent Eli bashing?  
ron mexico : 7/15/2019 2:48 pm : link
In comment 14499220 Lambuth_Special said:
Quote:
After the post-draft furor, it's been pretty quiet around here regarding Eli, outside of Shurmur's comments at the end of OTAs. And even that thread dealt with reading the tea leaves of what Shurmur said rather than discussing Eli's play.


this.

No one is bashing Eli anymore. People may bash the org's handling of the QB position, but the debate on his ability has been very very quiet.

And No  
Lambuth_Special : 7/15/2019 2:48 pm : link
I wouldn't count the Davis Webb thread, considering 90 percent of the content is coming from Dep and Josh in the City.
and when I say no one  
ron mexico : 7/15/2019 2:49 pm : link
I mean posters here. I'm not speaking for the entire twitterverse

RE: RE: Has there been a lot of recent Eli bashing?  
dep026 : 7/15/2019 2:50 pm : link
In comment 14499224 ron mexico said:
Quote:


No one is bashing Eli anymore. People may bash the org's handling of the QB position, but the debate on his ability has been very very quiet.


Hmm 🤔
Not sure the dispute. What I wrote is fine  
Jimmy Googs : 7/15/2019 3:13 pm : link
and stand by it.

Where is the apology post from the next day?
RE: Not sure the dispute. What I wrote is fine  
dep026 : 7/15/2019 3:15 pm : link
In comment 14499252 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
and stand by it.

Where is the apology post from the next day?


You were clearly wrong and wonít admit it. Shocking huh son? No any more lying and youíre grounded!!!
You and youíre drunken friends  
dep026 : 7/15/2019 3:16 pm : link
In Section 200 are smarter than Jason Witten and his HOF career.

Amazing, huh?
You mean we saw plays of an open receiver that the QB  
Jimmy Googs : 7/15/2019 3:32 pm : link
could have reached but wasnít looking? Yes everybody at game saw.

Take it down a few notches as well with the drunken  
Jimmy Googs : 7/15/2019 3:35 pm : link
stuff. You are out of line and need to stop with line of posts.

This is why you apologized after the game as I recall..
Thereís the deflection we all know and love  
dep026 : 7/15/2019 3:35 pm : link
No we are talking about the TD missed because Odell ran man coverage and stopped where it was correctly read by Eli and he threw it where the zone opening was.

Itís so pathetic you just canít admit being wrong. I showed the quotes. I showed the thread and you still canít admit it.
Came here to read the thread  
Josh in the City : 7/15/2019 4:28 pm : link
and ended up reading another thread that devolved into another user being attacked by dep. Shocking.
RE: Came here to read the thread  
dep026 : 7/15/2019 4:53 pm : link
In comment 14499308 Josh in the City said:
Quote:
and ended up reading another thread that devolved into another user being attacked by dep. Shocking.


I havenít attacked anyone. Just pointing out the obvious with actual proof from threads which were posted on in the past.
If the ball was thrown to the wide open receiver  
Jimmy Googs : 7/15/2019 4:57 pm : link
it was TD. It wasn't and there was no score, and the NYG lost.

Go find the apology and use it again...
RE: RE: Came here to read the thread  
Jimmy Googs : 7/15/2019 4:59 pm : link
In comment 14499318 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 14499308 Josh in the City said:


Quote:


and ended up reading another thread that devolved into another user being attacked by dep. Shocking.



I havenít attacked anyone. Just pointing out the obvious with actual proof from threads which were posted on in the past.


So calling posters drunks is a compliment in your mind?

To any alcoholics on the site, Dep send his best wishes...
Great thread  
dorgan : 7/15/2019 5:01 pm : link
to emphasize the relationship between ignorance and arrogance that is so prevalent on this site.
It does keep me amused.
RE: Great thread  
Big Blue '56 : 7/15/2019 5:05 pm : link
In comment 14499327 dorgan said:
Quote:
to emphasize the relationship between ignorance and arrogance that is so prevalent on this site.
It does keep me amused.


I call BS! Nothing keeps you amused you crotchety ĎOl bastid! NTTAWWT
Man is never wrong  
dep026 : 7/15/2019 5:10 pm : link
...
Maybe its good genes, cleaning living or luck  
Jimmy Googs : 7/15/2019 8:01 pm : link
Or maybe its simply because you are the one on the other side of these debates...
RE: Maybe its good genes, cleaning living or luck  
dep026 : 7/15/2019 8:26 pm : link
In comment 14499429 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
Or maybe its simply because you are the one on the other side of these debates...


Actually I have a HOF on my side. You have the guys who couldnít see a naked chick a row in front of them but somehow can disssct a play from over hundred yards away...
That's because the play didn't need dissecting  
Jimmy Googs : 7/15/2019 9:12 pm : link
he was just flat out open for a TD. Just throw it.

But keeping bring the HOFs to "your side". Maybe he will mention you in his speech at Canton too...

RE: That's because the play didn't need dissecting  
dep026 : 7/15/2019 10:49 pm : link
In comment 14499461 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
he was just flat out open for a TD. Just throw it.

But keeping bring the HOFs to "your side". Maybe he will mention you in his speech at Canton too...


Again itís nice you know more football than actual hall of fame players.

Forget the fact that you canít even understand a simple route concept where a player is suppose to be when itís a zone defense. You donít even understand that Eli was throwing to a spot even before OBJ turned around(which was shown at halftime and told by the analysts saying that Eli reads zone correctly and throws it to the right spot.)

But again... youíre never wrong, right?
See son - this is why youíre a running joke  
dep026 : 7/15/2019 10:58 pm : link
On this site.

1. You made a bunch of stupid statement using ďfansĒ as your backup.
2. People on this site tried to explain why you were wrong.
3. A hall of famer explained in detail why your thought was wrong.
4. They showed replays of Eli throwing it before OBJ getting out of his break.

Yet you STILL wonít admit youíre wrong. Itís sad. Itís pathetic. Itís you. Grow up.

When you start to understand why QBs throw to certain spots dictated by either zone or man defense, then come talk football with me or anyone here. Until then, continue with your stupid nicknames, stalking ways...
And the irony of this thread  
dep026 : 7/15/2019 11:06 pm : link
Is that Britt showed why the casual fan may not understand why a play turns out... and yet the man who is never wrong continues his crusade that Eli screwed up even though the facts and evidence show else wise.
Make it as complicated as you like to make yourself feel better  
Jimmy Googs : 7/16/2019 12:04 am : link
But he was open and didnít get the ball thrown to him. And they didnít score...

Keep it simple and you will be wrong less often, ďsonĒ...



The man is just never wrong  
dep026 : 7/16/2019 12:08 am : link
Even when he has no clue what heís talking about...

Knows more than everyone.
And football is complicated  
dep026 : 7/16/2019 12:12 am : link
Not a simple sport, son. Which is why Iíve been telling you to stop talking about it. Youíre out of your league. I would love for you to go up to an NFL player and tell him why he is wrong in something he has done over a thousand times in his life.

Iím sure he will break down and admit that you are just so much smarter than all of the coaches and players in the league.

Cause you know son, youíre never wrong!
No  
Jimmy Googs : 7/16/2019 12:12 am : link
but clearly you
RE: No  
dep026 : 7/16/2019 12:14 am : link
In comment 14499575 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
but clearly you


LMAO and Jason Witten, Kurt Warner, Matt Hasselbeck, etc... who all said during the game and post game that OBJ screwed up. But what do they know, right?


But again, youíre never wrong!
whoa, adding even more  
Jimmy Googs : 7/16/2019 12:17 am : link
backup...just make the world already
RE: That's a fair assessment but I don't agree about being stuck....  
Thegratefulhead : 7/16/2019 2:09 pm : link
In comment 14499206 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
in a narrative.

To a man, I can't think of any pro-Eli guy that was upset when we drafted Daniel Jones, or even before when it was becoming clear we were planning for the future of the position post Manning.

What is hard to understand is the relentless bashing of him on the way out. And it is relentless, and it's not confined to this board either. What prompts a guy like Warren Sharp to post a single play from November in July, not to mention a game Manning won with a 4th quarter comeback game winning drive and TD throw? Where does that come from?
It is no longer a debate. It has gotten personal for many here. Everyone frames things in such as way to piss the other side off. IE If you think that, you must be stupid. Being right about Eli seems more important to some than the Giants success. If Jones looks even remotely as good as Eli, he should start. It would be good for the franchise. Experience for Jones is greater than a farewell tour. That said, I think Eli is going to look a lot better than Jones and have a great year. Everything is in place other than system. Jones is a better fit IMHO. If Eli does great there will be bunch of threads saying suck it haters. If Eli does poorly there will be a bunch of threads saying I told you so homers. I see everyone in kind of the same light. With one caveat, rooting against Eli because you want to be right about something on a fan page makes you a great big asshole. I am rooting for Eli to do well because that is good for a fan of the Giants(yay me). I am also rooting for Jones to be even better than Manning because that is good for a fan of the NY Giants(yay me)
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