NFT: Knicks since 2014

.

HOF coach but zero experience building a roster, navigating the cap, running an organization, etc.

over Mitchell.

Jackson stunk but he's gone. Noah and Lee stunk but the remaining $$ isn't crippling. Maxing Anthony was stupid but he's gone.

The Hardaway deal seems like the best of the worst if there is such a thing.

A very entertaining team that needed tweaking but not him. IMHO

Stop it, stop it, stoppppppppp

by far. Despite all those other terrible moves we'd have a young core of Mitchell, Barrett, Knox and Robinson. That is nice.

But to me it’s the Frank pick. Who knows if they would have taken Mitchell but that would have had the longest and largest positive impact. Instead of having a player that has the potential to be an all NBA guard for years and years to come, they have a guy who may be out of the league in his 3rd season. That’s a really rough result for the 8th overall pick.

I know there is young talent on this roster which is good. And I realize they were missing picks in 2014/2016 and the draft is a crapshoot for almost all teams. But I really wish they had more to show for how bad they’ve been the last 5 years and a lot of that boils down to Frank.

Mitchell's good but he's not an All-NBA caliber player.

In comment 14499675 TyreeHelmet said:

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But to me it’s the Frank pick. Who knows if they would have taken Mitchell but that would have had the longest and largest positive impact. Instead of having a player that has the potential to be an all NBA guard for years and years to come, they have a guy who may be out of the league in his 3rd season. That’s a really rough result for the 8th overall pick. I know there is young talent on this roster which is good. And I realize they were missing picks in 2014/2016 and the draft is a crapshoot for almost all teams. But I really wish they had more to show for how bad they’ve been the last 5 years and a lot of that boils down to Frank.

It’s far more likely that DSJ would have been the pick, which is what most GMs would have done. And they have him now.

I was not in favor of the Melo trade when it happened. Sure, I got caught up in it eventually, but I always felt it was too much, and I actually liked Danilo Gallinari (15.9/4.0 although oft-injured) and Wilson Chandler (12.9/5.3). Fat Ray Felton was having a bang-up year when the Knicks sent him away. Tim Mozgov ended up having a serviceable career. Don't forget all the picks ... and even though most didn't amount to much, the 2014 first-rounder produced Dario Saric (who is still just 25).

Was it worth it? I'd like to go back and see how the team progressed, keeping those picks and building a different way.

In comment 14499686 Jim in Fairfax said:

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In comment 14499675 TyreeHelmet said: Quote: But to me it’s the Frank pick. Who knows if they would have taken Mitchell but that would have had the longest and largest positive impact. Instead of having a player that has the potential to be an all NBA guard for years and years to come, they have a guy who may be out of the league in his 3rd season. That’s a really rough result for the 8th overall pick. I know there is young talent on this roster which is good. And I realize they were missing picks in 2014/2016 and the draft is a crapshoot for almost all teams. But I really wish they had more to show for how bad they’ve been the last 5 years and a lot of that boils down to Frank. It’s far more likely that DSJ would have been the pick, which is what most GMs would have done. And they have him now.

And Dallas was set to draft Frank if we went DSJ... frank would have been sent in the Porzingis trade lol

to me is the Hardaway signing. It was a massive overpay AND it was done by an interim GM. Like 2 days before a GM was signed. Why?

In comment 14499679 Greg from LI said:

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Mitchell's good but he's not an All-NBA caliber player.

I said potential which I believe he has. He’s 22 years old and averaged 24 points for a good playoff team in his second season. He also received all nba votes last year.

He’s not perfect but he’s already a really good player and obviously light years ahead of Frank. Has room to grow too.

the Knicks are doing better these days just by not doing anything stupid.

Yes, Donovan Mitchell is better than Frank. Yes, Frank's first two seasons have been bad. But he is about to turn 21. We still don't know what kind of player he'll turn out to be. Let's see what happens this season. He's got very little trade value at the moment. If he plays better, he will be tradeable. If he plays great, we all shut up and enjoy the show. If he plays lousy, he'll be buried on the bench or gone.

In comment 14499640 gtt350 said:

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A very entertaining team that needed tweaking but not him. IMHO

Agreed. Even MDA didn't want to make the move iirc. IMO that team was on it's way to being a bit like the Clips roster last year (not as good necessarily but decent, hard working players, fun to watch, in every game every night). Plus THAT roster...THEN signing Melo in the offseason? I'm not a huge Melo fan, but that would have been something...

Also tho it's just nonsense fanship, I hated losing Will-the-Thrill. Just a solid piece that in his prime should have been a valuable role player to a contender

Frank for DMitch yeah, but a lot of teams passed on him. Also, there's a good chance that becomes another KP without whatever culture changes we're hoping are now in place (so far so good but yeah...long way to go & wait and see). I think just NOT making the Melo trade would have been like NYK this year NOT locking into stupid 2nd & 3rd tier signings

the worst move is trading KP.

If we had this exact same team and KP right now we'd have one of the most promising young teams. He's a legit #1.

Injury history, this and that blah blah. If we were tanking again this season then it would make more sense. We clearly aren't. We could have some of the good signings like Randle and Peyton and not have like Portis, Gibson and Bullock.

Star management is part of the game. KP was the most promising player we've had in a long time. He could win the MVP in Dallas. It is very frustrating to follow this team.

It's nice that we didn't blow the cap space on long term bad contracts but that is a pretty low bar considering we gave up an asset like that to clear the space.

In comment 14499946 ChaChing said:

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In comment 14499640 gtt350 said: Quote: A very entertaining team that needed tweaking but not him. IMHO Agreed. Even MDA didn't want to make the move iirc. IMO that team was on it's way to being a bit like the Clips roster last year (not as good necessarily but decent, hard working players, fun to watch, in every game every night). Plus THAT roster...THEN signing Melo in the offseason? I'm not a huge Melo fan, but that would have been something... Also tho it's just nonsense fanship, I hated losing Will-the-Thrill. Just a solid piece that in his prime should have been a valuable role player to a contender Frank for DMitch yeah, but a lot of teams passed on him. Also, there's a good chance that becomes another KP without whatever culture changes we're hoping are now in place (so far so good but yeah...long way to go & wait and see). I think just NOT making the Melo trade would have been like NYK this year NOT locking into stupid 2nd & 3rd tier signings

first off the roster had plateud and was starting to lose games..

It was built around amare who was not going to be able to keep handling the load..

and the hundreth timr knicks could t just sign melo

but when a guy SAYS he wants out, it's not as big a bad move to take what you can get right there vs risking losing him for nothing (esp w/ the HUGE injury concern...just this one, much less potential for future problems)

In that sense, I was much less pissed about this than prior trades (or OBJ tho even that had to happen) in spite of being frustrated. Also why I don't think the DMitch pick would necessarily have solved a long term issue...tho would LOVE to have him in NYK go figure even ignoring the Frank part

because he represented hope and his ceiling remains high but he's got a LONG way to go to become a superstar. He ran out of gas every year after the first two months of the season and has played 3x as many games pre-asb than post. I mean look at his career splits... Plus the injuries which are also intertwined for a guy that's all legs.
KP career to date splits - ( New Window )

And I still put a lot of the blame on the organization (and Jackson in particular) for allowing the relationship to deteriorate to the point that he forced his way out. However, once it got to that point, they really didn't have much recourse but to trade him. Having him walk for nothing would have been a disaster.

In comment 14499958 nygiants16 said:

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In comment 14499946 ChaChing said: Quote: In comment 14499640 gtt350 said: Quote: A very entertaining team that needed tweaking but not him. IMHO Agreed. Even MDA didn't want to make the move iirc. IMO that team was on it's way to being a bit like the Clips roster last year (not as good necessarily but decent, hard working players, fun to watch, in every game every night). Plus THAT roster...THEN signing Melo in the offseason? I'm not a huge Melo fan, but that would have been something... Also tho it's just nonsense fanship, I hated losing Will-the-Thrill. Just a solid piece that in his prime should have been a valuable role player to a contender Frank for DMitch yeah, but a lot of teams passed on him. Also, there's a good chance that becomes another KP without whatever culture changes we're hoping are now in place (so far so good but yeah...long way to go & wait and see). I think just NOT making the Melo trade would have been like NYK this year NOT locking into stupid 2nd & 3rd tier signings first off the roster had plateud and was starting to lose games.. It was built around amare who was not going to be able to keep handling the load.. and the hundreth timr knicks could t just sign melo

Holy shit, are you 5 yrs old? Grow up. You can disagree without being an ass, or even posting

And how many times do you have to be wrong after insisting things before you act like half an adult? OMG Navarro Bowman said KD to NY!!! Oh his office is in NY? That was before believing all the Perkins / Windhorst gossip (who changed their minds after that & b4 he signed in BK anyway)

Fine, maybe we couldn't sign Melo in FA. Happy? You've been so wrong so often in recent months I'm not taking your word for it, but here's an adult just disagreeing without being a reactive jackass

In comment 14499968 ChaChing said:

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In comment 14499958 nygiants16 said: Quote: In comment 14499946 ChaChing said: Quote: In comment 14499640 gtt350 said: Quote: A very entertaining team that needed tweaking but not him. IMHO Agreed. Even MDA didn't want to make the move iirc. IMO that team was on it's way to being a bit like the Clips roster last year (not as good necessarily but decent, hard working players, fun to watch, in every game every night). Plus THAT roster...THEN signing Melo in the offseason? I'm not a huge Melo fan, but that would have been something... Also tho it's just nonsense fanship, I hated losing Will-the-Thrill. Just a solid piece that in his prime should have been a valuable role player to a contender Frank for DMitch yeah, but a lot of teams passed on him. Also, there's a good chance that becomes another KP without whatever culture changes we're hoping are now in place (so far so good but yeah...long way to go & wait and see). I think just NOT making the Melo trade would have been like NYK this year NOT locking into stupid 2nd & 3rd tier signings first off the roster had plateud and was starting to lose games.. It was built around amare who was not going to be able to keep handling the load.. and the hundreth timr knicks could t just sign melo Holy shit, are you 5 yrs old? Grow up. You can disagree without being an ass, or even posting And how many times do you have to be wrong after insisting things before you act like half an adult? OMG Navarro Bowman said KD to NY!!! Oh his office is in NY? That was before believing all the Perkins / Windhorst gossip (who changed their minds after that & b4 he signed in BK anyway) Fine, maybe we couldn't sign Melo in FA. Happy? You've been so wrong so often in recent months I'm not taking your word for it, but here's an adult just disagreeing without being a reactive jackass

i was wrong? you mean the same person who said kd was not coming to new york over and over again? The same person who said over and over again that he was not going to believe the hype?

The same person who said he didnt want kd after he got hurt? oh yeah that was me...

you want to attack me? get your facts straight

you said Navarro Bowman said he's coming to NY, then talked about KD moving his office. You and only you, and insisted as much. "I dont know what to tell you" is you're fav quote, then you change your mind with every new little tidbit of info. Literally all FA like a gossip girl

After insisting KD to NY for almost the whole year, you like many jumped on Perkins & Windhorst's 'news' - where even Perkins changed is mind to LAL b4 the final signing. So as I said then, no one knows. But here you are insisting something again (with no support btw, even if you're right)

Whatever, you do you. My point is aside from being blatantly wrong often recently, you could just discuss and not be an ass. Plus, maybe remember you haven't told ME for the 100th time, so maybe, like I said, act like an adult? If not just learn the diff between opinions, click bait and the like...if not just learn not flail around if you disagree with something

That's my point. Grow up

And if you are going to gossip all day, at least relax and discuss, not shit on other opinions as incorrect (while using the same sources no less, if any actual support) simply because you disagree

but again i just posted what people were syaing from the start of the year i said kd was not coming here..

In comment 14499966 Greg from LI said:

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And I still put a lot of the blame on the organization (and Jackson in particular) for allowing the relationship to deteriorate to the point that he forced his way out. However, once it got to that point, they really didn't have much recourse but to trade him. Having him walk for nothing would have been a disaster.

While you’re right that they probably would have had to move him at some point if it really was that toxic , there was 0% he was taking the QO or going to Europe. There’s no chance in hell hes passing up 150 million guaranteed- none whatsoever. They had no risk of losing him for nothing.

And let’s be honest- unless DSJ makes some tremendous strides or they get very lucky with that 2021 pick, they didn’t get much for Porzingis. I think they probably could have gotten a similar package or even more if they did a sign and trade this offseason.

Maybe he really is injury prone or doesn’t ever put it all together. But I would take Porzingis over every player on this roster short term and long term and it’s not close. A duo of Barrett and KP would have given real hope for the future.

But I'm pretty sure almost all year you were saying how KD is coming to NY. Bowman, office location, DJ coming / staying, etc...if not apologies

Either way whatever, over it lol

In comment 14500010 ChaChing said:

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But I'm pretty sure almost all year you were saying how KD is coming to NY. Bowman, office location, DJ coming / staying, etc...if not apologies Either way whatever, over it lol

its all good man, and apologies for coming off as ckombative

In comment 14500008 nygiants16 said:

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but again i just posted what people were syaing from the start of the year i said kd was not coming here..

I can back up 16 here. Seems like he watched all the games and was constantly saying how big of a mess they were and that Durant wasn’t coming and they weren’t getting any stars to come to this disaster.

He was spot on....

I have heard many insist how different things could have been if the Knicks didn't amnesty Billups and instead used it on Amare. I agree with this. Granted, this would have prevented the Knicks from signing Chandler, but I believe the Knicks could have attained a similar level of success with Amare, Carmelo and Billups for a year. Iirc, the following year Billups would have come off of the books, they could amnesty Amare and start pretty much clean with an all star level Melo. Melo thoughts aside, I think they could have built a steady contender.

As for the KP trade, I agree that it is tough to lose someone with such talent, but I found him challenging to watch. It seemed to me that he would settle for contested mid-range jumpers from the elbow more often than not. He seemed wildly streaky to me and I think his ability to block shots overshadowed many of his flaws at the defensive end. Those concerns plus the off of the court allegations make that trade easier for me to swallow.

As for the Mitchell for Frank aspect, I still think many undervalue defense. While Frank's injuries have been a major concern and his offense has been horrid he still seems to be one of the rare players on the Knicks who can at least slow someone down. I've seen many recommend a line-up of Smith, RJ, Knox, Randle and Mitch. I wouldn't be surprised if that line-up gave up over 120 pts per game. That all being said, there would be much more hope around this team if Mitchell was on it, but I still think not amnestying Amare was the biggest mistake since 2014.

but the KP thing in general is what i'm criticizing. Find a way to make him happy IMO. Yeah his brother was annoying and the two of them acted like he was already an MVP. But yes managing a 20-22 year old who has just tasted the limelight of fame in NY, who isn't from this country originally, just tasted real wealth for the first time.

Yeah, that is a hard situation to manage. But that's the kind of thing you are expected to manage when you own a sports franchise in the largest market in the world. Table stakes.

Sure I know expecting the Knicks to do anything right is like torturing yourself but it doesn't mean it's not disappointing to see them fuck this up too.

In comment 14500015 JustaDiscussion said:

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I have heard many insist how different things could have been if the Knicks didn't amnesty Billups and instead used it on Amare. I agree with this. Granted, this would have prevented the Knicks from signing Chandler, but I believe the Knicks could have attained a similar level of success with Amare, Carmelo and Billups for a year. Iirc, the following year Billups would have come off of the books, they could amnesty Amare and start pretty much clean with an all star level Melo. Melo thoughts aside, I think they could have built a steady contender. As for the KP trade, I agree that it is tough to lose someone with such talent, but I found him challenging to watch. It seemed to me that he would settle for contested mid-range jumpers from the elbow more often than not. He seemed wildly streaky to me and I think his ability to block shots overshadowed many of his flaws at the defensive end. Those concerns plus the off of the court allegations make that trade easier for me to swallow. As for the Mitchell for Frank aspect, I still think many undervalue defense. While Frank's injuries have been a major concern and his offense has been horrid he still seems to be one of the rare players on the Knicks who can at least slow someone down. I've seen many recommend a line-up of Smith, RJ, Knox, Randle and Mitch. I wouldn't be surprised if that line-up gave up over 120 pts per game. That all being said, there would be much more hope around this team if Mitchell was on it, but I still think not amnestying Amare was the biggest mistake since 2014.

The thing about Billups vs Chandler was that they picked up Billups' option and THEN amnestied him. How dumb can you be?

The whole thing with Billups, Chandler, and Amare happened way before 2014. My bad.