There are a lot of player who play at a HOF level for a few years, but it's difficult to say who could keep it up for the long term.
Hakeem Nicks got hurt in his fourth season, when he was 24 years old. Prior to that season, he was 10th in receptions through age 23, 6th in receiving yardage, and 4th in TDs. Could he have been a HOF worthy player if he had stayed healthy and maintained that level of production? Maybe, but who knows if he would have done that?
Troy Archer looked like he was going to be very good Â
Injuries greatly diminished his play around age 28, and he was out of football by 31.
That's a good choice. He was at the top of his position for a short period and then fell off substantially with injuries. He just didn't achieve the longevity that great guards do. If you projected a "normal" career arc of a dominant guard he'd be talked about in the same vein as some of the recent ones that are going to get in.
of you underestimate how high the bar is for the NFL HOF.
Bavaro I agree. But consider there are just 9 TE's in the HOF. Period. Ever. Bavaro could have made it 10 if he wasn't injured, but wanted to add that for context.
But Snee?
longshot at best. He went to 4 pro-bowls, but was only once an all-pro.
There are very few guards in the HOF at all and he does not measure up to them IMO - even if he were healthy longer.
Larry Allen: 11 pro-bowls, 6 time all-pro
John Hannah: 9 pro-bowls 7 time all-pro
Will Shields: 11 pro-bowls, 2 time all-pro
Mike Munchak: 9 pro-bowls, 2 time all-pro
There are only 46 modern era OL in Canton total (tackles, guards, and centers). Snee has two rings, which IMO helps his case, but he does not belong in Canton even if he were healthy.
come to mind are Bavaro and Simms. Simms is a double-edged one - he lost stats early in his career to injuries and then lost the chance for a 2nd ring vs. Buffalo. He gets that ring by playing and he's more than likely in.
doesn't sniff Canton with perfect health for another 20 years.
People need to look at the WR's in Canton:
Plaxico was a good player, but he's not close to these guys statistically (at least not the ones I saw play)
Modern Era: Wide Receivers (27)
Lance Alworth 1962-1972
Raymond Berry 1955-1967
Fred Biletnikoff 1965-1978
Tim Brown 1988-2004
Cris Carter 1987-2002
Tom Fears 1948-1956
Marvin Harrison 1996-2008
Bob Hayes 1965-1975
Elroy Hirsch (also HB) 1946-1956
Michael Irvin 1988-1999
Charlie Joiner 1969-1986
Steve Largent 1976-1989
Dante Lavelli 1946-1956
James Lofton 1978-1993
Don Maynard 1958, 1960-1973
Tommy McDonald 1957-1968
Bobby Mitchell (also HB) 1958-1968
Art Monk 1980-1995
Randy Moss 1998-2012
Terrell Owens 1996-2010
Pete Pihos 1947-1955
Andre Reed 1985-2000
Jerry Rice 1985-2000
John Stallworth 1974-1987
Lynn Swann 1974-1982
Charley Taylor (also HB) 1964-1975, 1977
Paul Warfield 1964-1977
more Pro Bowls and likely gotten at least one more All Pro nod.
2011 is when his play started declining noticeably. He was 29 years old that year. He had made three straight Pro Bowls and one All Pro at that point. Will Shields had made 5 Pro Bowls, but no All Pro at that point. Munchak, four Pro Bowl and one All Pro.
The great guards often have long careers and stay productive well into their 30s. Didn't happen with Snee. If it had, he might have had a shot, that was what I was saying.
Surprised nobody mentioned Jumbo. Bavaro arguably deserves the HOF even with the shortened career but Jumbo Elliot was probably the most talented offensive lineman to ever put on a Giants uniform. Unfortunately serious back problems really began derailing him in 1990. He still came back and put on one of the most dominant performances by a tackle in Super Bowl history against Bruce Smith no less. He was the unsung MVP of Super Bowl 25. One of the best when he was healthy but like Snee his body broke down early and often and several back surgeries later he was never the same player again.
more Pro Bowls and likely gotten at least one more All Pro nod.
2011 is when his play started declining noticeably. He was 29 years old that year. He had made three straight Pro Bowls and one All Pro at that point. Will Shields had made 5 Pro Bowls, but no All Pro at that point. Munchak, four Pro Bowl and one All Pro.
The great guards often have long careers and stay productive well into their 30s. Didn't happen with Snee. If it had, he might have had a shot, that was what I was saying.
I guess, it's an opinion question so other opinions are as correct as mine, but I don't view Snee as a potential HOFer.
Cruz should have been on my list, started out like a lightning bolt. but faded just as quickly - due to injury.
Yeah, assuming he was productive at his age, a young Simms Â
He hadn't had the record-breaking season yet but seemed to still be improving when the injuries hit. Cruz was really good but I didn't think he was a HOF-level performer.
Agree that Bavaro is the obvious choice, but I don't know how Bavaro could have avoided injury, given his style of play.
Joe Morris? No one expected him to replicate those two monster years, but it’s probably reasonable to believe he could have had a bunch of productive years on the ground were his career not hindered by injury.
....are somewhat questionable IMO. But that's why we talk about it!
Just as a reference, Mark Collins was one of the best corners I've seen - coverage and tackling. And while never hurt, he never got a sniff of HOF mention.
Great running back: run with power and speed and could catch like a wideout.
I'll say it. Frederickson was not that good and was a bust as a #1 pick in the entire draft. Ernie Koy was a better player but Tuck got good press and was one of Wellington's favorites because he'd hang at Toots Shors with the boys.
The next four players chosen: Ken Willard who played 9 years ran for 6500 yards and caught 277 passes for the Niners, Dick Butkus, Gayle Sayers and Craig Morton.
The Giants draft that year was comical. No second round pick. In the third round, the Giants take Chuck Mercein and the immortal kicker Bob Timberlake. In the 4th round, they take another immortal, Henry Carr. And then in the 5th round they take a punter Frank Lambert.
....are somewhat questionable IMO. But that's why we talk about it!
Just as a reference, Mark Collins was one of the best corners I've seen - coverage and tackling. And while never hurt, he never got a sniff of HOF mention.
Bill, that’s why we’re not mentioning Tiki as he was healthy
Great running back: run with power and speed and could catch like a wideout.
I'll say it. Frederickson was not that good and was a bust as a #1 pick in the entire draft. Ernie Koy was a better player but Tuck got good press and was one of Wellington's favorites because he'd hang at Toots Shors with the boys.
The next four players chosen: Ken Willard who played 9 years ran for 6500 yards and caught 277 passes for the Niners, Dick Butkus, Gayle Sayers and Craig Morton.
The Giants draft that year was comical. No second round pick. In the third round, the Giants take Chuck Mercein and the immortal kicker Bob Timberlake. In the 4th round, they take another immortal, Henry Carr. And then in the 5th round they take a punter Frank Lambert.
Not taking Sayers or Butkus over Frederickson was beyond egregious and incompetent, imv
RE: Anyone think Charles Way could have made it as a FB Â
career already past their primes. The two Giants that come to mind that were injured that had a chance to build HOF careers in my lifetime were Cruz and Sehorn. Just unbelievable before their injuries cut them short. Sehorn especially, guy never played corner before the NFL and his 3rd and 4th seasons were tremendous. Just a ridiculous athlete.
Cruz was a very good Wr, but Nicks was absolutely brilliant before he was injured. With his hands, if he had any speed left after the Compartment Syndrome impact - he'd probably have been a middling guy.
Hall of Fame is just that...Hall of Fame...not Hall of Good.
Sehorn had one great year in '97 before his knee injury. Hard to say he would have continued being great even without injury.
Snee was Hall of Good. He was never dominant the way a Larry Allen was or a Mike Munchek was. Still a great player but IMO not HOF.
Charles Way at FB? No chance. Lorenzo Neal, Mike Alstott, Keith Byers all better then Way.
Nicks is legit. He was amazing his first three years and then his body fell apart.
Cruz - Had an amazing 2011. A good 2012. An ok 2013. Wasn't doing much prior to injury in '14. I think it is ridiculous to say he had a shot at the HOF.
Of course he has no shot, what BB '56 was saying was who had a shot if they didn't get injured.
which is why so many people suggest Bavaro as the obvious choice.
Shockey has no HOF chance IMO and not sure it's injuries, his career just didn't pan out as well as it started. He pretty much peaked as a rookie (other than not getting in the end zone).
Of course he has no shot, what BB '56 was saying was who had a shot if they didn't get injured.
which is why so many people suggest Bavaro as the obvious choice.
Shockey has no HOF chance IMO and not sure it's injuries, his career just didn't pan out as well as it started. He pretty much peaked as a rookie (other than not getting in the end zone).
And that fucking dropped pass in the EZ against the Niners in the choke game, his rookie year
Does that put the game out of reach? Do we go on to beat the Bucs?
Is Fassel still fired in December 03? Do they draft Eli in 04? It’s an interesting hypothetical. But one could argue that if he catches that pass, the history of the last 15 years may be quite different.
Hall of Fame is just that...Hall of Fame...not Hall of Good.
Sehorn had one great year in '97 before his knee injury. Hard to say he would have continued being great even without injury.
Snee was Hall of Good. He was never dominant the way a Larry Allen was or a Mike Munchek was. Still a great player but IMO not HOF.
Charles Way at FB? No chance. Lorenzo Neal, Mike Alstott, Keith Byers all better then Way.
Nicks is legit. He was amazing his first three years and then his body fell apart.
Cruz - Had an amazing 2011. A good 2012. An ok 2013. Wasn't doing much prior to injury in '14. I think it is ridiculous to say he had a shot at the HOF.
With respect re Lorenzo Neal i disagree:
Neal played 16 years and had 226 rushes for 807 yards 6 TDs.
Way played 5 years and had 337 rushes for 1,356 yards and 10 TDs.
Had Way stayed healthy he would have put up a greater career than Neal. This doesn't even count receptions which Way would have had more of. JMO
Sehorn went from amazing, to avg. after the knee injury.
Hakeem Nicks got hurt in his fourth season, when he was 24 years old. Prior to that season, he was 10th in receptions through age 23, 6th in receiving yardage, and 4th in TDs. Could he have been a HOF worthy player if he had stayed healthy and maintained that level of production? Maybe, but who knows if he would have done that?
I think Snee is an excellent choice
That's a good choice. He was at the top of his position for a short period and then fell off substantially with injuries. He just didn't achieve the longevity that great guards do. If you projected a "normal" career arc of a dominant guard he'd be talked about in the same vein as some of the recent ones that are going to get in.
Plax was breaking down physically even before the gunshot, so I dunno if he would had enough top years left to get in.
Bavaro I agree. But consider there are just 9 TE's in the HOF. Period. Ever. Bavaro could have made it 10 if he wasn't injured, but wanted to add that for context.
But Snee?
longshot at best. He went to 4 pro-bowls, but was only once an all-pro.
There are very few guards in the HOF at all and he does not measure up to them IMO - even if he were healthy longer.
Larry Allen: 11 pro-bowls, 6 time all-pro
John Hannah: 9 pro-bowls 7 time all-pro
Will Shields: 11 pro-bowls, 2 time all-pro
Mike Munchak: 9 pro-bowls, 2 time all-pro
There are only 46 modern era OL in Canton total (tackles, guards, and centers). Snee has two rings, which IMO helps his case, but he does not belong in Canton even if he were healthy.
Good player, not a HOFer.
Only Bavaro from my lifetime had a chance.
People need to look at the WR's in Canton:
Plaxico was a good player, but he's not close to these guys statistically (at least not the ones I saw play)
Modern Era: Wide Receivers (27)
Lance Alworth 1962-1972
Raymond Berry 1955-1967
Fred Biletnikoff 1965-1978
Tim Brown 1988-2004
Cris Carter 1987-2002
Tom Fears 1948-1956
Marvin Harrison 1996-2008
Bob Hayes 1965-1975
Elroy Hirsch (also HB) 1946-1956
Michael Irvin 1988-1999
Charlie Joiner 1969-1986
Steve Largent 1976-1989
Dante Lavelli 1946-1956
James Lofton 1978-1993
Don Maynard 1958, 1960-1973
Tommy McDonald 1957-1968
Bobby Mitchell (also HB) 1958-1968
Art Monk 1980-1995
Randy Moss 1998-2012
Terrell Owens 1996-2010
Pete Pihos 1947-1955
Andre Reed 1985-2000
Jerry Rice 1985-2000
John Stallworth 1974-1987
Lynn Swann 1974-1982
Charley Taylor (also HB) 1964-1975, 1977
Paul Warfield 1964-1977
2011 is when his play started declining noticeably. He was 29 years old that year. He had made three straight Pro Bowls and one All Pro at that point. Will Shields had made 5 Pro Bowls, but no All Pro at that point. Munchak, four Pro Bowl and one All Pro.
The great guards often have long careers and stay productive well into their 30s. Didn't happen with Snee. If it had, he might have had a shot, that was what I was saying.
But Bavaro is the obvious choice, would have went down as one of the best two ways TEs in the history of the game.
2011 is when his play started declining noticeably. He was 29 years old that year. He had made three straight Pro Bowls and one All Pro at that point. Will Shields had made 5 Pro Bowls, but no All Pro at that point. Munchak, four Pro Bowl and one All Pro.
The great guards often have long careers and stay productive well into their 30s. Didn't happen with Snee. If it had, he might have had a shot, that was what I was saying.
I guess, it's an opinion question so other opinions are as correct as mine, but I don't view Snee as a potential HOFer.
Cruz should have been on my list, started out like a lightning bolt. but faded just as quickly - due to injury.
Agree that Bavaro is the obvious choice, but I don't know how Bavaro could have avoided injury, given his style of play.
He only played full seasons in 84,85,86, and 93.
That's just four seasons.
Banks at 1986 playoff level was no doubt Hall of Fame caliber
He only played full seasons in 84,85,86, and 93.
That's just four seasons.
Fair point
If he stayed healthy, with a ring or two, he would have had a shot
Just as a reference, Mark Collins was one of the best corners I've seen - coverage and tackling. And while never hurt, he never got a sniff of HOF mention.
Who knows what kind of career JPP is able to put together without the back and the fireworks.
Sky was the limit.
I'll say it. Frederickson was not that good and was a bust as a #1 pick in the entire draft. Ernie Koy was a better player but Tuck got good press and was one of Wellington's favorites because he'd hang at Toots Shors with the boys.
The next four players chosen: Ken Willard who played 9 years ran for 6500 yards and caught 277 passes for the Niners, Dick Butkus, Gayle Sayers and Craig Morton.
The Giants draft that year was comical. No second round pick. In the third round, the Giants take Chuck Mercein and the immortal kicker Bob Timberlake. In the 4th round, they take another immortal, Henry Carr. And then in the 5th round they take a punter Frank Lambert.
Just as a reference, Mark Collins was one of the best corners I've seen - coverage and tackling. And while never hurt, he never got a sniff of HOF mention.
Bill, that’s why we’re not mentioning Tiki as he was healthy
I'll say it. Frederickson was not that good and was a bust as a #1 pick in the entire draft. Ernie Koy was a better player but Tuck got good press and was one of Wellington's favorites because he'd hang at Toots Shors with the boys.
The next four players chosen: Ken Willard who played 9 years ran for 6500 yards and caught 277 passes for the Niners, Dick Butkus, Gayle Sayers and Craig Morton.
The Giants draft that year was comical. No second round pick. In the third round, the Giants take Chuck Mercein and the immortal kicker Bob Timberlake. In the 4th round, they take another immortal, Henry Carr. And then in the 5th round they take a punter Frank Lambert.
Not taking Sayers or Butkus over Frederickson was beyond egregious and incompetent, imv
Most likely not due positional bias but he was a fucking monster as a FB and a very good runner. And I’ll agree w Seahorn as well.
Cruz was a very good Wr, but Nicks was absolutely brilliant before he was injured. With his hands, if he had any speed left after the Compartment Syndrome impact - he'd probably have been a middling guy.
Just terrible he was done by 24.
Sehorn had one great year in '97 before his knee injury. Hard to say he would have continued being great even without injury.
Snee was Hall of Good. He was never dominant the way a Larry Allen was or a Mike Munchek was. Still a great player but IMO not HOF.
Charles Way at FB? No chance. Lorenzo Neal, Mike Alstott, Keith Byers all better then Way.
Nicks is legit. He was amazing his first three years and then his body fell apart.
Cruz - Had an amazing 2011. A good 2012. An ok 2013. Wasn't doing much prior to injury in '14. I think it is ridiculous to say he had a shot at the HOF.
The one guy not mentioned is an interesting one.
Jeremy Shockey.
The one guy not mentioned is an interesting one.
Jeremy Shockey.
Of course he has no shot, what BB '56 was saying was who had a shot if they didn't get injured.
which is why so many people suggest Bavaro as the obvious choice.
Shockey has no HOF chance IMO and not sure it's injuries, his career just didn't pan out as well as it started. He pretty much peaked as a rookie (other than not getting in the end zone).
Quote:
Come on...
The one guy not mentioned is an interesting one.
Jeremy Shockey.
Of course he has no shot, what BB '56 was saying was who had a shot if they didn't get injured.
which is why so many people suggest Bavaro as the obvious choice.
Shockey has no HOF chance IMO and not sure it's injuries, his career just didn't pan out as well as it started. He pretty much peaked as a rookie (other than not getting in the end zone).
And that fucking dropped pass in the EZ against the Niners in the choke game, his rookie year
Bavaro
Simms
How about Nicks. Could he have been a Chris Carter type?
Then the back set in and ultimately the fireworks but he was still productive.
Is Fassel still fired in December 03? Do they draft Eli in 04? It’s an interesting hypothetical. But one could argue that if he catches that pass, the history of the last 15 years may be quite different.
Sehorn had one great year in '97 before his knee injury. Hard to say he would have continued being great even without injury.
Snee was Hall of Good. He was never dominant the way a Larry Allen was or a Mike Munchek was. Still a great player but IMO not HOF.
Charles Way at FB? No chance. Lorenzo Neal, Mike Alstott, Keith Byers all better then Way.
Nicks is legit. He was amazing his first three years and then his body fell apart.
Cruz - Had an amazing 2011. A good 2012. An ok 2013. Wasn't doing much prior to injury in '14. I think it is ridiculous to say he had a shot at the HOF.
With respect re Lorenzo Neal i disagree:
Neal played 16 years and had 226 rushes for 807 yards 6 TDs.
Way played 5 years and had 337 rushes for 1,356 yards and 10 TDs.
Had Way stayed healthy he would have put up a greater career than Neal. This doesn't even count receptions which Way would have had more of. JMO