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NFT: Radon in home: is it overblown? no pun intended....

Milton : 7/18/2019 1:27 pm
Okay so I'm in the process of closing on a house and we run the radon test and get back a result of 5.3 ppi/l from the unfinished basement, which according to the guy who ran the test, translates to a 2.6 on the main floor (kitchen, living room, dining room) and 1.3 on second floor (the bedrooms). The EPA recommends taking "action" if it's over 4.0 ppi/l, but the basement in its current state will only be used for laundry.

Which leaves me with several questions...
1. Is it really an issue at levels below 8 or is this mostly just a money-making politically-motivated scare tactic that has created a whole industry.
2. Will finishing the basement (and laying a new floor over the current floor) reduce the ppi/l level by enough to drop it below 4?
3. Is there a daily cost associated with running a "radon reduction mediation system" that goes beyond the installation cost?

I've read contrasting reports on radon, but it's hard to tell who is being honest with so much money at stake. The scare tactic is that "radon is the second leading cause of lung cancer after tobacco" but when you look inside the numbers you realize there is more (or less!) to it than that.

The anti-radon reducing crowd claims that the EPA based their recommendations on bad science and that the 4.0 level is overly conservative (and that low levels of radon can actually be benefical). Also, studies show that radon only increases the lung cancer risk for tobacco smokers (of which I am not) and that for non-smokers there is no demonstrated increased risk for those living with radon compared to those living without.

What say you, BBI?
I assume like most things in our fake news media  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 7/18/2019 1:31 pm : link
It's overhyped scare tactics to make you buy and pay for things you really don't need.
A radon remediation  
pjcas18 : 7/18/2019 1:31 pm : link
system is like $1200.

I had borderline radon in a basement in a house I bought and because of that and the fact it was a finished basement we asked the sellers to put in a remediation system - they agreed to pay half - which I was fine with.

I'd do that for my own peace of mind.
Super cheap  
Mark from Jersey : 7/18/2019 1:33 pm : link
Not worth the risk
No clue on radon but  
robbieballs2003 : 7/18/2019 1:33 pm : link
Do anything to get your washer/dryer out of the basement. Nothing more annoying than walking down a flight or 2 of steps to do your laundry and then up the same amount to put it away.
Apparently you are not the only one living in the house  
Marty in Albany : 7/18/2019 1:40 pm : link
Whether rightly or wrongly, if she is nervous about radon in the house, she will not be happy. Merely by being told "don't worry" won't change her mind if even a slim possibility makes her nervous. I'm guessing that she will be spending more time in the house than you and she also does the laundry.
its mostly bullshit from what i've heard  
UConn4523 : 7/18/2019 1:42 pm : link
but is that worth no taking action on something that's really a tiny investment? I think its just cheap enough for them to get away with it.

For example, im building a house and its in a sandy area near the beach. Radon comes from igneous rock that deep down and trapped in pockets. Sandy areas shouldn't have much radon but the people who bid on the house before me had it tested and levels were slightly elevated. They backed out (for other reasons) and we got the house and just got a $1500 credit at closing to pay for radon.

Now my builder is also a licensed Radon remediation installer and said its up to us, he thinks its kinda BS but he will pipe it if we want, its simple since we are doing a knockdown/rebuild. We haven't gotten there yet but I'll probably just throw it in there since it will be hidden (piped through the house).

The biggest drawback is that they are ugly. Its a giant ugly pvc pipe that they strap to your nice siding and has to clear the top of the house by X feet, also really ugly.
RE: No clue on radon but  
giants#1 : 7/18/2019 1:43 pm : link
In comment 14501469 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
Do anything to get your washer/dryer out of the basement. Nothing more annoying than walking down a flight or 2 of steps to do your laundry and then up the same amount to put it away.


Especially if the bedrooms are upstairs (2 flights!).
Does it really matter?  
Amtoft : 7/18/2019 1:44 pm : link
Even if it is overblown. You have a family you can't take chances. Spend the money to fix it and there are no worries. If someone god forbid got cancer you would never forgive yourself even if there is no proof that caused the issues.
as for the questions  
giants#1 : 7/18/2019 1:45 pm : link
I believe it's just a PVC pipe routed through the walls and connected to a small fan in the basement. Likely a rounding error on your electric bill.
RE: Does it really matter?  
giants#1 : 7/18/2019 1:47 pm : link
In comment 14501483 Amtoft said:
Quote:
Even if it is overblown. You have a family you can't take chances. Spend the money to fix it and there are no worries. If someone god forbid got cancer you would never forgive yourself even if there is no proof that caused the issues.


This. Especially if kids are in your future. The currently unfinished basement may be unused now, but might make an ideal playroom for them later on. I'm guessing their developing lungs/bodies would be more susceptible to any potential effects of radon.
I used to install radon systems  
mainiac : 7/18/2019 1:48 pm : link
1. If it is a home sale, the buyer usually will demand it.

2. Ongoing cost involves fan electricity which should be minimal, and sometimes a fan replacement which is a few hundred dollars.

3. Finishing the basement usually will have minimal effect.

4. In terms of the real danger, there is data out there that is concerning. However, you need to look at the level as well as what is being done in that space. For a laundry room I might hesitate unless the level is rather high or I plan on selling soon. If there is a bedroom down there it is a whole different story. 8+hours a day in that space and there should definitely be a system in there.

* Keep in mind that the official guidance is based on relatively long term exposure (years). Also, even after installing a system there will still be radon down there, just less (and hopefully below threshold)
Mine was barely noticeable  
pjcas18 : 7/18/2019 1:49 pm : link
the pipe was along the baseboard in the finished area then went out into the unfinished basement area right up to the roof and looked like another exhaust pipe on the roof.

I looked into it and growing up with two parents who smoked constantly (divorced) but still two smokers - at home - in the car - you name it I felt like any radon my kids get exposed to playing in the basement would be minimal.

But then for the price it fell into the category of how you can know and not do anything and live with yourself if something happened.

money and aesthetics are just not that important (to me).
Milton  
UConn4523 : 7/18/2019 1:50 pm : link
you can pipe it through your basement and up through the house but that's going to be hard in finished space. Its most likely going to be installed by drilling into your basement foundation and then out the foundation wall and up your siding until it clears your roof line.

As for cost, its just a tiny fan that constantly runs, draws next to no power, think of a tiny desk fan that can run on batteries. Its just enough to circulate and collect the air up and out.
Also,  
mainiac : 7/18/2019 1:51 pm : link
If you do install a system, it is sometimes possible to safely route the piping through the back of a closet into the attic and out the roof. It would be nearly invisible, but very dependent on the layout of the house.
You know how you remediate radon?  
Crispino : 7/18/2019 1:59 pm : link
Open the windows periodically. Seriously.
I 100% agree that you should do it to minimize any harm to your family  
robbieballs2003 : 7/18/2019 2:08 pm : link
But I also think it is helpful that you have something already installed when you eventually go to resell the house. You don't want to lose potential buyers and thousands of dollars off the asking price for something as cheap as this sounds.
RE: You know how you remediate radon?  
Bockman : 7/18/2019 2:10 pm : link
In comment 14501500 Crispino said:
Quote:
Open the windows periodically. Seriously.


Exactly. Or if you're really worried, drill a hole through the sill, mount a fan and run a switch. Turn it on periodically. No need to spend thousands.
Thanks for the input everyone, much appreciated...  
Milton : 7/18/2019 2:49 pm : link
My specific situation is this: I'm gonna be 60 in January and Gabi (my main squeeze) just turned 51 a week ago. Neither of us are tobacco smokers, nor have we ever been (according to studies, the risk varies greatly for "ever-smokers" vs "never-smokers"). We won't be having children. And at least for the first year, we (mostly she) will be bicoastal, keeping an apartment in LA because of her job and the fact that her father will be turning 90 on Saturday and has been in and out of hospital with a heart condition (so his days are numbered and he can't really travel).

The house is in the Berkshires, so it gets very cold in the winter and leaving windows open periodically may not be such a good idea in terms of heating costs. On top of that, I would like to finish the basement at some point, so its use will become much more common down the road than it is at first (i.e, as my office, which would mean spending half my day there; and/or as a rec room/gym, so I will be breathing heavier when I'm in it).

I think what I may do is ask for a $1,000-$1,500 price reduction on house and then run a radon test in the home for 90+ days (which will give a much more accurate reading than the two day test that is run during closing). I can then make a decision based on the more accurate number (and a better idea of what I want to do with the basement and the home in general). I may spend the rest of my life in the house or I may be selling it in three years, who knows?

As others have said, I'll probably install a mediation system just for the peace of mind, but my spider sense tells me...
...it's a ripoff - ( New Window )
anyone telling you to open the windows  
UConn4523 : 7/18/2019 2:54 pm : link
or do some halfass remeditation is giving poor advice. You either remediate it or you don't.

If you remediate you'll never think about it again, neither will future buyers.

If you don't remediate you will likely not have any health issues but will probably think about it a lot. When you sell the house you'll have to give a $1,500 credit for install if levels are elevated and possibly lose some people (1st time buyers mostly) who are scared off by it.

There's no in-between and sellers won't react well to "just open the windows".
The house we live in now  
VTChuck : 7/18/2019 3:33 pm : link
is a 200 year old farmhouse with a stone foundation. The radon levels in the cellar were below the threshold... probably due the the fact that the drafty old place gets plenty of air exchanges.

Our new house is being built now, energy efficient, tight and it has an radon remediation system built in as does every house in that development. Very modest cost for a new build.

In any case, we're seniors with grown children. I don't think its going to be radon that does us in.
We went through the same shit last month  
djm : 7/18/2019 4:03 pm : link
Just bought a home in Oakland, NJ. We got the test it came back at 5.1 then 4.9. We demanded the owners install the radon vent thing. Now it’s at 0.1

Fuck taking chances. Get it fixed.
Doesn’t hurt that I didn’t have to pay a dime  
djm : 7/18/2019 4:04 pm : link
But I’d still do it even if I had to pay.
Northeast Lemming Scam  
BocaGene : 7/18/2019 4:23 pm : link
Moved from Trumbull, CT 1992 - never heard about radon
Moved from Boca Raton, FL 2003 - never heard about radon
Moved to Las Vegas, NV 2003 (still here) - never heard about radon
your numbers  
jestersdead : 7/18/2019 5:08 pm : link
are a decent amount over the limit, why risk it? Tell your lawyer, based on the home inspection report the radon levels are above the appropriate level and we ask that the seller install a radon mitigation system. Most sellers are willing to install the system and not lose the sale and face the same demand from the next buyer
I am having my mitigation  
NDMedics : 7/18/2019 5:30 pm : link
system installed on Tuesday. The total cost of the system is $1850.00. My radon number is 14.8, considered high for my area. It is a finished basement on the same slab as the garage, so that is where the system is going. Installation by Basement Systems of New York.
After a pow wow with our agent...  
Milton : 7/18/2019 5:37 pm : link
...the plan is to ask for a $1,500 reduction on the sale price. My guess is they will agree to it, because both sides have been reasonable so far.

The chain of events...
1. We went to the open house and the following evening we offered them the list price, but asked that they include the furniture. They agreed, only asking to keep two lamps, a couple of framed photos, and one or two other minor pieces.
2. The inspection revealed a bunch of minor things, but nothing major. We asked them to take care of all safety issues (related to grounding some electric outlets),"repoint" the chimney, along with a couple of other minor things, but there were things (i.e, gutters needed work) in the inspection report that we did not ask them to repair. So we were reasonable and they were agreeable.
3. Two things we didn't ask of them: a) the roof over the screened in back porch was working fine, but the inspector felt it would need to be replaced sooner than later; b) there were some pipes that may or may not have been insulated with asbestos and they might need to be "encapsulated" (which is not such a big expenses, probably in the hundreds of dollars, not thousands).
4. After the 5.3 radon test, I think it's fair to ask for a $1,500 sale price reduction based on the radon situation, the porch roof needing replacement "soon", and the possible asbestos on pipes (which would require encapsulation, but would not represent a big, costly job).
p.s.--As for the porch roof, I plan on converting the screened in porch into a three-season sun room with a hot tub, so the roof is marked for early replacement anyway.
If you open your windows for an hour or two ...  
Crispino : 7/18/2019 5:38 pm : link
once a month, the level will never rise above the recommended levels. And you won’t have to remediate when you sell because it won’t test high enough to merit remediation. Unless you live in an area prone to very high levels, it’s all you need to do.
In NJ, if the property tests over the limit, the seller....  
Crispino : 7/18/2019 5:44 pm : link
will have to remediate though. Once it’s tested above the limit, they have no choice as it will hold up the issuance of a Certificate of Occupancy. And it’s grounds for the buyer to opt out of the contract if the seller won’t remediate. Additionally, the seller would have to disclose the radon results to any subsequent buyer if the buyer backs out.
RE: If you open your windows for an hour or two ...  
pjcas18 : 7/18/2019 5:46 pm : link
In comment 14501695 Crispino said:
Quote:
once a month, the level will never rise above the recommended levels. And you won’t have to remediate when you sell because it won’t test high enough to merit remediation. Unless you live in an area prone to very high levels, it’s all you need to do.


Advice like this is reckless and ignorant. Just don't respond if this is going to be your advice.

The EPA suggests that radon levels can return to previous levels in as little as 12 hours of closing windows.

Radon and it's link to lung cancer IS one of those items that science is still in debate over but opening your windows monthly as remediation is potentially dangerous and bad advice.

Remediate because you don't want to bear the risk or don't remediate because science is split (though mostly not - especially the CDC, EPA, etc.), but opening windows monthly is not a solution.
Should have said could inhibit issuance of C. of O.  
Crispino : 7/18/2019 5:50 pm : link
And if your levels to a higher concentration than the recommended picocuries in a few hours, then you live in an area prone to very high levels as I mentioned. I’m talking about the average home where levels are borderline. An opening the windows is just as effective in that case.
RE: Should have said could inhibit issuance of C. of O.  
Bockman : 7/18/2019 6:04 pm : link
In comment 14501706 Crispino said:
Quote:
And if your levels to a higher concentration than the recommended picocuries in a few hours, then you live in an area prone to very high levels as I mentioned. I’m talking about the average home where levels are borderline. An opening the windows is just as effective in that case.
Crap double-clicked  
Bockman : 7/18/2019 6:06 pm : link
Listen, if $1800 is worth it to you for peace of mind, then I'm all for it.

Otherwise, unless your basement is Chernobyl x2, you'll be fine.
Milton  
UConn4523 : 7/18/2019 6:15 pm : link
ask for a credit, not a reduction in sale price. Reducing your sale price doesn’t help you pay for the system ($1,500 saves you $300 at closing, it’s negligible). If you end up not wanting to install the system then you can always put that $1,500 elsewhere or add to a payment to decrease your principal.
Exactly  
djm : 7/18/2019 8:06 pm : link
Ask for credit or 1500 off the closing costs. Then you’re good.

We had the previous owner pay for it and it ran them 1500 bucks. Many others charged around 2000.

Don’t fuck around with this. Especially since you can usually get the owners to pay. You’re letting them off easy if you don’t act.
The buyer holds the cards here  
UConn4523 : 7/18/2019 8:13 pm : link
One of the few ways they are able to do so when buying a home. Once radon is detected the buyers agent has to be forthcoming (at least in CT). So if it’s a problem for you it’s going to be a problem for the next guy in line if you back out. No one wants a back out, it adds months to the sale and loses the seller money.

$1,500 is nothing for the seller to get a deal done. Take it, install or don’t install, and that’s really it.
Okay so my agent asked for a price reduction, not a credit...  
Milton : 7/18/2019 10:25 pm : link
It is already agreed upon and written up as addendum, so it's not worth asking for a $1,500 credit instead at this point. I'll run the 90+ day test and take it from there based on the results, but in all likelihood I will get something installed at some point.

p.s.-- We asked for a loan that gives us a $10K cushion beyond the cost of the house minus the downpayment. This is to cover closing costs, agent's fee, etc. With the sale price now lower, I assume that means the $1,500 difference is added to the cushion and will leave us with more excess dollars when closing is completed. Am I wrong? This is new to me and I'm not sure how all the money gets divided up.
Again, thanks everyone...  
Milton : 7/18/2019 10:40 pm : link
Hearing the variety of opinions has been helpful! I'm glad the seller was reasonable. She is 72-years old and the house has been in her family since 1960.
IMO  
steve in ky : 7/18/2019 10:44 pm : link
I wouldn't finance any extras for the home into the mortgage. That $1500 financed over 15, 20 or 30 years will cost you a fortune by comparison. If you fiance your basic mortgage (ideally only 15 year) and pay as you go for improvements it will save you lot of money over time.

I good way to look at it is for any "extra" just punch that dollar amount into a amortization calculator with your rate of interest and years and then see how much it will actually cost you.

Also to the original topic. I would recommend you get the radon taken care of sooner than later. I wouldn't listen to those that say to simply ignore it, or occasional open a window.
Milton  
UConn4523 : 7/18/2019 11:28 pm : link
that sounds like a credit. If it’s just a price reduction than your loan goes down by $1,500. Sounds like it wouldn’t effect your cash.
RE: IMO  
giants#1 : 7/19/2019 7:21 am : link
In comment 14501884 steve in ky said:
Quote:
I wouldn't finance any extras for the home into the mortgage. That $1500 financed over 15, 20 or 30 years will cost you a fortune by comparison. If you fiance your basic mortgage (ideally only 15 year) and pay as you go for improvements it will save you lot of money over time.

I good way to look at it is for any "extra" just punch that dollar amount into a amortization calculator with your rate of interest and years and then see how much it will actually cost you.

Also to the original topic. I would recommend you get the radon taken care of sooner than later. I wouldn't listen to those that say to simply ignore it, or occasional open a window.


Depends on your personal finance situation (e.g. do you have an 'emergency' fund, additional investments, etc?) as well as interest rates. If your interest rate is 6+% (maybe even 5+%), then the shorter term mortgage and paying extra makes financial sense. But with rates down <4%, you're better off getting a 30 year mortgage and investing the couple hundred dollars saved each month (vs a 15 year) in something like the Vanguard 500. Over the length of the mortgage, the investment portfolio is likely (obviously not guaranteed) to earn substantially more than the interest you pay on the mortgage.
In general,  
WideRight : 7/19/2019 8:31 am : link
there is more radioactivity exposure to humans from granite countertops in the kitchen than radon in the basement. Think about where you spend your time....
And the cost of removing radon from the basement is about $15  
WideRight : 7/19/2019 8:33 am : link

Its called a fan.
RE: Again, thanks everyone...  
WideRight : 7/19/2019 8:39 am : link
In comment 14501883 Milton said:
Quote:
Hearing the variety of opinions has been helpful! I'm glad the seller was reasonable. She is 72-years old and the house has been in her family since 1960.


And this nicce 72 yo woman has been living in this radon infested houe for 59 years, and now someone is saying there's a health hazard? LOL

The reason I like radiobiology in general is because almost nobody understands it, and the absurd level of public misunderstanding leads to extremely silly situations and outcomes.
I just moved into the house with one of those remediation systems  
Heisenberg : 7/19/2019 8:45 am : link
Looks a little weird on the back of the house but is completely silent and needs no maintenance.
radon  
fkap : 7/19/2019 10:16 am : link
is pretty low on the list of things I'm worried about. I'm very skeptical about gov't regulations - too prone to influence by lobbyists. It's not only whether or not radon is harmful, but also what levels are harmful, and what the level of risk really is (getting eaten by a shark level of risk?).

If it's a case of spending the seller's money, then yeah, what the heck, go for it. When it comes to my own money, though, I'm not going to install with the cavalier attitude of being a sheeple. A good point was made that the next buyer is likely to make you pay for it when you sell.

A stup
radon  
fkap : 7/19/2019 10:23 am : link
is pretty low on the list of things I'm worried about. I'm very skeptical about gov't regulations - too prone to influence by lobbyists. It's not only whether or not radon is harmful, but also what levels are harmful, and what the level of risk really is (getting eaten by a shark level of risk?).

If it's a case of spending the seller's money, then yeah, what the heck, go for it. When it comes to my own money, though, I'm not going to install with the cavalier attitude of being a sheeple, but do a lot more research on it. A good point was made that the next buyer is likely to make you pay for it when you sell.

A stupid question: if all a remediation system entails is blowing it outside, can't you just install a dryer vent and small fan (or something similar)?

Radon  
pjcas18 : 7/19/2019 2:12 pm : link
is classified as a carcinogen. It has nothing to do with lobbyists or people being lemmings.

Radon is the second leading cause of lung cancer, with an estimated 20,000 people dying annually of lung cancer due to radon.

Science is not split on that.

The exposure or levels at which it's harmful is the only thing really in debate.

So citing a 72 year old woman who has lived in a house and doesn't have lung cancer is silly. My father smoked 2 packs of cigarettes a day for 30 years, drank like it was an olympic sport and ate red meat at every meal, he just turned 84 and is in good healt. Does that mean none of those things are harmful?

You can probably do nothing to remediate the radon levels and fine, but as mentioned a) it will help when you sell the home and b) it can't hurt. without children it's less compelling, but with kids it's a no-brainer as much as wearing a seat belt or a bike helmet.
RE: radon  
cactus : 7/19/2019 4:15 pm : link
In comment 14502126 fkap said:
Quote:

A stupid question: if all a remediation system entails is blowing it outside, can't you just install a dryer vent and small fan (or something similar)?


one way of dealing with it is installing an air exchanger in the basement.
That’s just moving air around  
UConn4523 : 7/19/2019 4:49 pm : link
a remediation system is successful because a hole is punched in your foundation and then sealed off at the entry point so it can suck up the radon concentration before it rises and dissipates into the home. Everything is a half measure or worse.

If it’s something you are concerned about (can’t tell you whether you should be or not) then you should do it right.
As many have said get it taken care of  
Torrag : 7/19/2019 5:11 pm : link
You can't put a price tag on peace of mind where your families health and well being is concerned.
RE: I assume like most things in our fake news media  
montanagiant : 7/19/2019 11:44 pm : link
In comment 14501466 Coach Red Beaulieu said:
Quote:
It's overhyped scare tactics to make you buy and pay for things you really don't need.

This seriously has to be about the dumbest take I have seen on BBI
Radon  
Jerry K : 7/20/2019 1:50 pm : link
Radon amounts vary depending on the local geology-- it's not a problem in many parts of the country. One of the first widely-covered instances of a severe problem was in Clinton, NJ, about 40 years ago.

NJ's Department of Environmental Protection says there are over 500 deaths per year in the state that are attributable to radon. The state produces maps that show the relative danger in different parts of the state. They're not hard to find online.

And...  
Jerry K : 7/20/2019 2:07 pm : link
pjcas 2:12 post is very good. Some other posts are cavalier and ill-informed (I hope that's obvious). And no one has come close to describing the more complete remediation systems built into many newer homes.

Ideally, a remediation system should be installed and tested before you purchase. More realistically, have a specialist come in and do a write up of what is needed and how much it will cost. Deduct that from the sale price of the house.
RE: RE: I assume like most things in our fake news media  
732NYG : 7/20/2019 2:13 pm : link
In comment 14502735 montanagiant said:
Quote:
In comment 14501466 Coach Red Beaulieu said:


Quote:


It's overhyped scare tactics to make you buy and pay for things you really don't need.


This seriously has to be about the dumbest take I have seen on BBI


He outdoes himself with every post.
RE: RE: RE: I assume like most things in our fake news media  
montanagiant : 7/21/2019 12:36 am : link
In comment 14502917 732NYG said:
Quote:
In comment 14502735 montanagiant said:


Quote:


In comment 14501466 Coach Red Beaulieu said:


Quote:


It's overhyped scare tactics to make you buy and pay for things you really don't need.


This seriously has to be about the dumbest take I have seen on BBI



He outdoes himself with every post.

Yes indeed..
RE: I assume like most things in our fake news media  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 7/21/2019 11:25 am : link
In comment 14501466 Coach Red Beaulieu said:
Quote:
It's overhyped scare tactics to make you buy and pay for things you really don't need.


You are clueless.

You live in your own little world where you make up your own truth, and dismiss anything that contradicts your ill-informed opinion as fake or a conspiracy.

That's not conducive to learning or becoming a well-rounded infividual. I guess that explains your posts.
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