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NFT: What should the Mets do?

CMicks3110 : 7/19/2019 8:01 am
Here are a few thoughts in not any particular order:

*I doesn't make all that much sense now to trade Wheeler. Not sure the return would be greater than the compensatory pick, and the injury increases the chance of re-signing him after the season (apparently a source confirmed this according to Metsblog)

*I would *try* to trade Wilson Ramos, Jason Vargas, and Frazier, the former has not been terribly productive and the latter two are free agents that have no future in flushing. I would probably try to grab some low minor prospects with upside and intl' bonus money, as I think we're starting to develop a young core in rookie ball/low a (Baty, Alvarez, Vientos, Mauricio, Newton, SWR, Allan, Wolf, Szapucki), I'd love to add to that crop of talent that's developing

*Not really sure what to do with Dom Smith and Syndergaard. Two immensely talented players who I am not sure have a future in flushing. The scary thing about these two is that I have a sickening feeling if they go elsewhere they will just light up (in the same way d'arnaud, murphy, j. turner) have in recent years.

*We really need to focus on four areas: Catcher, CF, SP Depth, and Bullpen. Now Rosario could potentially move to CF, but not sure I trust Gimenez to be the answer at SS in the short or long-term so I'm tempted to keep Rosario there and see if we can get his defense improved.

*Can we count on Kay being a middle to back of the rotation starter next season? Especially if we trade Noah. Books still out, but it's a risk, and we're going to need him if we're going to compete.

*I would love for 1 of these power relievers to finally do something meaningful. I'm fairley optimistic we can get something out of Riley Gilliam, but we'll see.

*Right now we have a pretty decent core in deGrom, [i]wheeler/i]Alonso, McNeil, Conforto, Nimmo, Matz, Rosario; Lugo, JD Davis, Diaz, Gsellman we have some veterans that will be here no matter what in Cano, Cespedes, Lowrie, J. Wilson, J. Familia. So that's 17 players pretty much locked in.

*The Cano trade a real shame. Kelenic and Dunn would make our future look so much brighter, especially with the A ball talent we have right now.

*If Wheeler or Syndergaard are gone--who is taking their place?
tough spot  
Big Blue Hokie : 7/19/2019 8:40 am : link
1 - agree, dont trade Wheeler at this point.

2 - 100% could dump those three and play the kids. I dont think they will get much back but they are not part of the solution next year

3 - This is the toughest one. Do you sell high on Dom and sell LOW on Thor? Considering that Dom doesnt have a shot at 1B and really isnt an OFer, I would try and cash in on his successes this year. Thor, unless I am blown away, I would keep him for now. His value in the offseason might be greater

4 - Rosario is such a disappointment even with his recent hot streak. He might just fall in line with all of the former top mets prospects that were busts.

5 - While Kay might be a middle of the rotation guy, you cannot count on him at this point.

Trade Frazier  
ZGiants98 : 7/19/2019 8:45 am : link
Add a reliever. Let the chips fall where they may.
I am pretty sure...  
LarmerTJR : 7/19/2019 8:55 am : link
I wouldn’t put Travis d’Arnaud in a category with Turner and Murphy. Besides his freakish two games against the Yanks he has been hot garbage for two teams after the Mets dumped him...
Why wouldn't you trade wheeler  
Giantsfan79 : 7/19/2019 8:56 am : link
The comp pic will be one player in 30-60 range that will go to rookie ball. Wheeler is one of the best rentals available. I'm not saying he'll fetch top prospects at this point, but the return should be better than one rookie ball prospect.
Wheeler  
GF1080 : 7/19/2019 9:31 am : link
Trade Wheeler.

Try to sign Noah long term now. Noah/deGrom top 2 build rotation around them. Lineup has a lot more pieces but unfortunately albatross Cano tanks us. We have a lot of cheap bats so fill in around them best as possible and try to fix pen yet again.
you summarized well - I agree with the list on #2 (vets to shop)  
Eric on Li : 7/19/2019 9:44 am : link
we won't get much for any of them but we need to create some room. Ramos will probably either require eating salary or taking back another salary, maybe you flip him for a reliever with another year on his deal or something to start adding some BP depth even if it's a mediocre player (nobody is giving up anything valuable for him).

The wreckage of the Cano deal is going to suck for a while.

Hopefully the continued wreckage from Callaway is gone soon and replaced by a real manager. I have very little faith left in BVW but if there's any rabbit in the hat it's going to be convincing the Wilpons to hire a credible, winning, manager for the first time ever and building a solid staff.
Nimmo cleared to resume baseball activities  
ZGiants98 : 7/19/2019 10:08 am : link
Isn’t expected to get into actual rehab games until August.
another interesting point  
CMicks3110 : 7/19/2019 10:09 am : link
would we consider buying right now? Not that we're going to make a run, but if there is some good reliever we could get, I wouldn't be shy about going after someone.

Gimenez is an interesting chip. I don't think that highly of him. I wonder if we can get a Catcher, Reliever, or Center Fielder for him.
Great game and brutal loss last night but this team  
ZGiants98 : 7/19/2019 10:10 am : link
Is playing great ball right now. Can’t fault the offense for struggling against Bumgarner and Noah and the pen were fantastic. Hopefully, deGrom helps us bounce back tonight.
RE: another interesting point  
ZGiants98 : 7/19/2019 10:13 am : link
In comment 14502107 CMicks3110 said:
Quote:
would we consider buying right now? Not that we're going to make a run, but if there is some good reliever we could get, I wouldn't be shy about going after someone.

Gimenez is an interesting chip. I don't think that highly of him. I wonder if we can get a Catcher, Reliever, or Center Fielder for him.


Yes. NL is wide open. Our record is really meaningless. With so many solid teams beating up on each other a .500 team likely is in striking distance of a wild card spot over the last week of the season. We were only 5 games out yesterday and we are pretty healthy and playing good ball at the moment. There isn’t a lot to sell and most of the team is still young. Ride it out and enjoy it. If we don’t make the postseason? Oh well. Most of the lineup is young and ascending and will be even better going into 2020.
I don’t understand trading Ramos or Vargas  
ZGiants98 : 7/19/2019 10:17 am : link
Either. That’s just a cut off your nose to spite your face type of plan. They aren’t returning anything significant and we are talking about tin salary just to get rid of them? There’s nobody backfilling them campaigning for playing time so what’s the point?

We need a vet catcher that can hit a little and Vargas’s option next year is cheap. Until Kay proves he’s ready we still need bodies.
..  
Named Later : 7/19/2019 10:20 am : link
They're not going to sign BOTH Wheeler and Noah....Noah will bring back most value, and Zach wants to be here. There are a few pitchers in the low minors. Not Aces, but probably serviceable There will soon be 3 openings in the Rotation -- Matz is useless and Vargas will be gone. Here come the kids.

The Vets mentioned above are all trade bait. The major problem is....these trades will be engineered by Brody. If they can get VALUE for them, pull the trigger. But no more bargain basement relievers.

Nimmo is done for the year, I expect nothing from him. He's only now just starting baseball activities and won't paly rehab games til August. I'm not placing any long term bets on a CF with a bad neck. Maybe Rosario gets an outfielder's glove sooner rather than later. I don't want to see Conforto in CF anymore -- he's the RF. And Dom is the LF until he proves otherwise.

It's time for Broken Van Wagonwheel to erase the stain on his first year in a new job.


Trading Dom Smith is insanity  
twostepgiants : 7/19/2019 10:28 am : link
You have a 24 yr old in a low cost team controlled contract who is just emerging. he can hit and has shown aptitude in LF. The team stinks and is going nowhere. Trading Smith is crazy.

The Mets have Alonso. McNeil, Smith, Conforto, DeGrom & Syndergaard. Build around that.

The Mets problem is horrific management. Get rid of Callaway ASAP and get a real GM in there. Getting a competent proven manager like Girardi or Buck would be a coup.

The Mets need to do everything possible to rid themselves of these crappy veterans like Frazier, Familia, Diaz, Cano, etc. Some tall tasks in there I know.

Im also done with Rosario. I’d move on from him.
Wheeler  
GF1080 : 7/19/2019 10:33 am : link
Problem is Wheeler really isn't that good. He's never had any form of sustained success for a full year.
RE: Trading Dom Smith is insanity  
ZGiants98 : 7/19/2019 10:46 am : link
In comment 14502132 twostepgiants said:
Quote:
You have a 24 yr old in a low cost team controlled contract who is just emerging. he can hit and has shown aptitude in LF. The team stinks and is going nowhere. Trading Smith is crazy.

The Mets have Alonso. McNeil, Smith, Conforto, DeGrom & Syndergaard. Build around that.

The Mets problem is horrific management. Get rid of Callaway ASAP and get a real GM in there. Getting a competent proven manager like Girardi or Buck would be a coup.

The Mets need to do everything possible to rid themselves of these crappy veterans like Frazier, Familia, Diaz, Cano, etc. Some tall tasks in there I know.

Im also done with Rosario. I’d move on from him.


Yeah especially considering he’s an asset in a corner outfield spot now. He actually has a better DRS in LF than 1B. Lol. He’s part of the future and we need young outfielders going forward. Trading him is insanity.
I always felt that if Syndegaard could be talked into being  
gtt350 : 7/19/2019 10:46 am : link
a closer he would be the next mariano Rivera
RE: Wheeler  
ZGiants98 : 7/19/2019 10:47 am : link
In comment 14502141 GF1080 said:
Quote:
Problem is Wheeler really isn't that good. He's never had any form of sustained success for a full year.


He was the 18th best pitcher in baseball last year over an entire season. I’d call that sustained success.
Remember the one inning he pitched in the world series  
gtt350 : 7/19/2019 10:47 am : link
he was terrifying
Side note:  
ZGiants98 : 7/19/2019 10:48 am : link
Not sure who caught the game last night, but that new slower slider Noah was throwing (87-88 mph) was lethal. Awesome to see!
RE: RE: Wheeler  
GF1080 : 7/19/2019 10:51 am : link
In comment 14502158 ZGiants98 said:
Quote:
In comment 14502141 GF1080 said:


Quote:


Problem is Wheeler really isn't that good. He's never had any form of sustained success for a full year.



He was the 18th best pitcher in baseball last year over an entire season. I’d call that sustained success.


I'd just like to see him fall back more into line with his peripherals. We're a NY team so we really should be able to sign both Wheeler and Thor long term also but we know that won't happen.
Rosario  
DanMetroMan : 7/19/2019 10:51 am : link
should be moved to CF. Problem is Gimenez has been awful so they wouldn't have a SS and no other internal options for the next few seasons either.
RE: RE: RE: Wheeler  
ZGiants98 : 7/19/2019 10:57 am : link
In comment 14502167 GF1080 said:
Quote:
In comment 14502158 ZGiants98 said:


Quote:


In comment 14502141 GF1080 said:


Quote:


Problem is Wheeler really isn't that good. He's never had any form of sustained success for a full year.



He was the 18th best pitcher in baseball last year over an entire season. I’d call that sustained success.



I'd just like to see him fall back more into line with his peripherals. We're a NY team so we really should be able to sign both Wheeler and Thor long term also but we know that won't happen.


I think his line being a little off is an advantage. Outside of a few more homers (potentially juiced balls this year) his numbers are right in line with last year. Use that as a bargaining chip. If you can get him on a reasonable 4 year deal, we’re set for at least a couple of more seasons. Maybe by 2022 when Thor is a FA... Kay, Peterson, and others are starting to become more established...
RE: Rosario  
Named Later : 7/19/2019 11:18 am : link
In comment 14502168 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
should be moved to CF. Problem is Gimenez has been awful so they wouldn't have a SS and no other internal options for the next few seasons either.


I'd also like to see Rosario in CF. They really need to know what they have in Amed.

I would put Hechavarria at SS for the time being. The future is Ronny Mauricio, but he's in low A and won't turn 19 until next April. I don't think Gimenez will hit enough in the bigs (why they held him out of that God-forseken Cano deal -- and gave up a top OF prospect is beyond my comprehension).
1. Sell the team  
giantsFC : 7/19/2019 11:33 am : link
2 keep McNeil, Smith, Alonso, degrom, Davis, Nido.

3. Fire the Mickey Mouse Club

Conforto, Thor, Rosario, Matz are on the fence bc of their massive inconsistencies an inabilities to stay healthy.

Everyone else should be traded or used as role players until their contracts are up. .
Nido?  
DanMetroMan : 7/19/2019 11:37 am : link
Why? I mean he's cheap but he's also not good. If someone wanted him I'd move him easily.
Yeah Nido is not starting material  
ZGiants98 : 7/19/2019 11:42 am : link
Nor part of the future. He’s a decent defensive backup but if you trade Ramos, you are once again on the market for a vet next year spending the same money you might have saved by getting rid of him, if not more.
If you move Rosario to CF  
Metnut : 7/19/2019 11:52 am : link
that leaves Nimmo, Conforto, Smith, Rosario, McNeil (who might actually play a better OF than IF) and Davis all under long-term control. Trading Nimmo and Rosario doesn't make sense because they have little value due to 2019 performance. McNeil's flexibility means we probably need to keep him.

Conforto likely has some good trade value and he's not under team control for as long as the other guys. Fangraph's didn't list Conforto as a top-50 trade asset, but listed him as an honorable mention. The producer of this article spent a lot of time on it, and spent a considerable amount of time talking to MLB front-office types in putting it together.

What would a realistic return for Conforto look like? Well, we can use the fangraphs analysis to see some realistic players we could get back in a 1 for 1 swap.

Here are a few other guys who were listed as honorable mentions in fangraphs top 50 trade value piece.

Prospects:

Dustin May (SP LAD)
Forest Whitley (SP Astros)
Brendan McKay (SP/1B TB)
Gavin Lux (SS/2B LAD)


MLB Pitchers:

Mike Clevinger
Sonny Gray
Jack Flaherty
Jameson Taillon

Position Players:

Brandon Lowe
Byron Buxton (CF)
Carson Kelly (catcher)
JP Crawford (SS)
Alex Verdugo (CF)
Aaron Hicks (CF)
Travor Story (SS)

Bullpen:

Josh Hader
Felipe Vasquez

I'm more than fine with keeping Conforto, I like him. But if we're trying to build a contender with limited payroll flexibility, we should consider whether any of the names I've listed would help us more than 3 more years of Conforto.

Gavin Lux  
DanMetroMan : 7/19/2019 11:56 am : link
maybe the best 15 game run I've ever seen.
RE: Gavin Lux  
Metnut : 7/19/2019 12:18 pm : link
In comment 14502266 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
maybe the best 15 game run I've ever seen.


Any chance he plays this year?
perception is a funny thing in baseball  
Eric on Li : 7/19/2019 12:21 pm : link
let me preface this by saying I'd probably take Kelenic over Gimenez bc the industry consensus is higher on him, though I'm a fan of Gimenez and continue to be more bullish on him than most. But the mainstream opinion on prospects IMO gets extremely biased based on statistical hot streaks (especially hot starts at the beginning of a season).

Kelenic's season has been pretty unanimously considered very good bc he started the year mashing in A ball, and that moved him up in the rankings. But his first 30 games since moving up to A+ he's hitting .250 with a .770 OPS. He just turned 20 a few days ago so he's a little young for the level but not crazily so (the Braves have 2 CF prospects ranked similarly to kelenic mashing in AA at age 20). Better than league average (112rc) is perfectly acceptable for a prospect making an adjustment to a new level just 1 year removed from getting drafted, but also definitely not elite uber prospect.

Meanwhile just 10 months older and also not yet legally able to buy a beer, in AA Gimenez is having what's viewed as a very disappointing season hitting a very similar .240 with a .660 OPS (97 wRC). YoY his power numbers are actually up though his contact numbers are down. After an all star first half in A+ last year and an aggressive move up to AA last year when he was a more comparable age to Kelenic.

Again to be clear I think both are very good prospects and also both players have dealt with injuries recently from getting hit by pitches. Either could very easily have a good 2nd half (or a hot couple weeks) and improve the narrative of their season's further. There were 2 or 3 seasons in a row where Dom Smith started awful and then had huge 2nd halves. This is not a knock on Kelenic - I hated giving him up at the time and wish we still had him. Just pointing out what I believe is a flaw in perception. Kelenic dominated A ball for 50 games and that narrative has carried.
RE: RE: Gavin Lux  
DanMetroMan : 7/19/2019 12:23 pm : link
In comment 14502299 Metnut said:
Quote:
In comment 14502266 DanMetroMan said:


Quote:


maybe the best 15 game run I've ever seen.



Any chance he plays this year?


His big league club is loaded but first 15 at AAA. .531/.577/1.063, 7 homers, 9 doubles, 2 triples, nuts
..  
Named Later : 7/19/2019 1:12 pm : link
My main concern with the Cano trade was that it seemed like Brody didn't take the time to understand the Mets Minors. He couldn't wait to make the big splash and get Cano.

The Mets top prospect list at that time had 5 or 6 shortstops in the top 20. The outfield prospects.....not so much.

Once BVW took on all that salary, did he have to throw in a couple of good prospects ?? Kelenic tore up the Sally League before his promothion and Dunn is pitching in AAA.


Rosario to CF is a train wreck of an idea  
twostepgiants : 7/19/2019 1:58 pm : link
And typical Mets.

CF is an extraordinarily important defensive position and you do not move a player there for discovery, You put a guy in LF for that.

But you only do that with a guy who can actually hit a ton. Rosario cant. He is barely a mediocre hitter.

The guy is a light-hitting defensive liability. On top of that he also apparently loafs out plays. It’s time to move on.

The Mets dont need to “find out what they have” in Rosario. They know what they have. Nothing. What they need to do is accept that fact.
Rosario's  
DanMetroMan : 7/19/2019 2:07 pm : link
98 wRC+ would rank 11th among CF's...
I don't know if Rosario would be better on D in CF or SS  
Eric on Li : 7/19/2019 4:55 pm : link
but I also very much doubt the Mets know. They need to revamp the entire major league staff and do a better job as an organization evaluating and developing defenders. They undervalue defense in acquisitions, underserve their existing players by moving them around too much, and under-develop the guys with plus talent like Rosario.

This is not new. Some of the Wilpons first big acts as sole owners of the team were bringing Mo Vaughn to the NL, the botched move of Piazza to 1B, moving Reyes to 2B for Kaz Matsui, and on and on its gone since then. Murphy and Duda in the OF, Flores at SS, Conforto in CF, McNeil to the OF, acquiring Cano at age 36.
From an Athletic article  
pjcas18 : 7/19/2019 5:06 pm : link
by Dennis Lin:

Quote:
...New York Mets starter Noah Syndergaard remains a prime target for San Diego and other clubs...


behind a paywall but linked for those with access
Link - ( New Window )
hard to see anything making sense unless they put Gore on the table  
Eric on Li : 7/19/2019 5:12 pm : link
until they do that not much to consider.
Be careful what you ask for  
Shecky : 7/19/2019 5:30 pm : link
A struggling, underperforming, hasn’t reached his potential Thor is still a top ten pitcher in the entire sport...
RE: Be careful what you ask for  
Eric on Li : 7/19/2019 5:41 pm : link
In comment 14502561 Shecky said:
Quote:
A struggling, underperforming, hasn’t reached his potential Thor is still a top ten pitcher in the entire sport...


no argument there - they should have been trying to resign him and wheeler long term the second they decided to keep JDG. Price only goes up every day, even if neither is currently pitching like a CY winner.
RE: Be careful what you ask for  
pjcas18 : 7/19/2019 6:16 pm : link
In comment 14502561 Shecky said:
Quote:
A struggling, underperforming, hasn’t reached his potential Thor is still a top ten pitcher in the entire sport...


Wasn't wishing for it, just relaying it.
Matt Harvey  
pjcas18 : 7/19/2019 7:28 pm : link
DFA'd by Anaheim.

Has there been a player who went from the pinnacle to rock bottom as quickly?
.  
pjcas18 : 7/19/2019 7:58 pm : link
The Mets Blog
@metsblog
·
7m
Mets recall P Tyler Bashlor and P Stephen Nogosek, option P Chris Mazza and SS Luis Guillorme (link: http://dlvr.it/R8l8Rk) dlvr.it/R8l8Rk
RE: Matt Harvey  
Ten Ton Hammer : 7/19/2019 7:59 pm : link
In comment 14502616 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
DFA'd by Anaheim.

Has there been a player who went from the pinnacle to rock bottom as quickly?


Gooden?

Injuries will do that.
RE: RE: Matt Harvey  
pjcas18 : 7/19/2019 9:54 pm : link
In comment 14502633 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 14502616 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


DFA'd by Anaheim.

Has there been a player who went from the pinnacle to rock bottom as quickly?



Gooden?

Injuries will do that.


Gooden was at least on top for a while and his drugs/injuries were a much slower descent

but good example.

I was thinking Mark Prior
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