ok, not really any other news, but Szapucki is BACK (or close to it).
5 IP 4H 2 BB 9 K's. I didn't hear how his stuff was, but easily his best start since his return and in A+
77 pitches, so he's being stretched, but he's also getting through 5 without a ton of work.
I wonder if Named Later was listening on the radio and can tell us how his stuff sounded.
@yaschwa30
LHP Thomas Szapucki in his first season back from TJS has been brilliant this season and tonight was no different:
5 IP, 4 H, 0 R, 2 BB, 9 K
His fastball reaches 98 with a spectacular curveball and a sharp changeup. Now that he is coming into form, his value will skyrocket
Kaye
Wolf
Allen
Baty
Newton
Mauricio
Woods Richardson
Kilome
Gimenez
Vientos
The Mets will have one of the better farms in the league
Smith. Alonso Mcneil. Conforto Rosario Nimmo
Degrom Syndergaard.
This is a solid core to move forward
Just change the fucking manager
No stealing
No bunting
No hit and run
No imagination and manufacturing runs
And awfulmanagement of the bullpen
How would you rank the SP in the system right now?
My philosophy is to have a #2 starting prospect at every level. They arent even close to having that right now. And to be honest, few teams ever do achieve that.
You want your flops, the guys who never learn how to pitch to turn into the Mejias and Familias of the world
My philosophy is to have a #2 starting prospect at every level. They arent even close to having that right now. And to be honest, few teams ever do achieve that.
You want your flops, the guys who never learn how to pitch to turn into the Mejias and Familias of the world
I meant more in relation to each other within this system, not compared to other systems.
SWR seems like he's claimed the top spot despite Kay getting the most recognition since he's closer, then there's the 2nd level with Puck/Allen/Wolf?/Santos?. Then there's the Dibrell/Smith/Peterson group that's uninspiring but somewhat progressing. Was curious if there's any stronger feeling on any of them (other than SWR).
Kaye
Wolf
Allen
Baty
Newton
Mauricio
Woods Richardson
Kilome
Gimenez
Vientos
The Mets will have one of the better farms in the league
Smith. Alonso Mcneil. Conforto Rosario Nimmo
Degrom Syndergaard.
This is a solid core to move forward
Just change the fucking manager
No stealing
No bunting
No hit and run
No imagination and manufacturing runs
And awfulmanagement of the bullpen
Not particularly close to one of the better farm systems in baseball. Maybe that looks different 12 months from now but the farm remains below average.
Not particularly close to one of the better farm systems in baseball. Maybe that looks different 12 months from now but the farm remains below average.
Tanous probably deserves a raise, the last 2 drafts were remarkably important keeping the system from bottoming out after the graduations and trades the past couple years. If BVW hadn't taken a wrecking ball to the 2018 draft they'd probably be considered top half of mlb.
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Not particularly close to one of the better farm systems in baseball. Maybe that looks different 12 months from now but the farm remains below average.
Tanous probably deserves a raise, the last 2 drafts were remarkably important keeping the system from bottoming out after the graduations and trades the past couple years. If BVW hadn't taken a wrecking ball to the 2018 draft they'd probably be considered top half of mlb.
Oh sure if Brodie doesn't trade 5-6 prospects including 2 of their top 3-4 then sure they would have a farm near the top but he did. The farm remains below average across the board. What is the organizational strength? Where are the top 100 "lock" prospects going into next year? It's weak, things can change though.
The OF is a disaster and the P is not good but getting better thanks to SWR/Allen/Wolf/Santos and Szapucki's progress.
The OF is a disaster and the P is not good but getting better thanks to SWR/Allen/Wolf/Santos and Szapucki's progress.
Gimenez is likely at the back end or even off many top 100 lists. He has had a very poor season by any standard. No knock on Baty but hot start or not he has an overall line of .215/.329/.431, he won't sniff a single HM let alone top 100. SP is really horrendous and BA didn't have a single OF in the Mets top... 30! prospects pretty amazing.
Gimenez hasn't had a good season to this point but he still has a 101rc at SS and his power numbers in AA improved YoY. If he has a strong finish to the season this year could still end up a positive one for him and even if not I doubt he falls off any top 100 lists unless he regresses big time the last few months.
Gimenez hasn't had a good season to this point but he still has a 101rc at SS and his power numbers in AA improved YoY. If he has a strong finish to the season this year could still end up a positive one for him and even if not I doubt he falls off any top 100 lists unless he regresses big time the last few months.
There is a 0% chance Baty makes any reputable top 100 lists. He was the 12th pick in the draft and isn't putting up big numbers or play a premium position. He's struck out 25 times over 65 ab's. Sure if suddenly he goes on some ridiculous tear I guess anything is possible but it would be really shocking.
The point isn't that Baty is great, it's that he's just 1 of several good IF prospects in the org and they have a recent track record of both drafting and developing position players well (most of them were similarly good and not great prospects).
Quote:
Yehuda Schwartz
@yaschwa30
LHP Thomas Szapucki in his first season back from TJS has been brilliant this season and tonight was no different:
5 IP, 4 H, 0 R, 2 BB, 9 K
His fastball reaches 98 with a spectacular curveball and a sharp changeup. Now that he is coming into form, his value will skyrocket
My buddy and I went to Atlanta to catch the Braves 2 weekend games vs Nats (now that was some good baseball), so I missed Szapucki's start. Sounds like he's right on track to finish strong at St Lucie and start next year at Bing.
I've seen SWR pitch when he came thru Charleston in May. What I saw in that game was he was around the plate a little too much....he had a lot of K's but the RiverDogs just went up there swinging and the hits started falling in. His last few starts he's cut way down on the hits, but still kept up the K rate. He's only 18 but he's learning how to pitch.
As far as Big Lefty Peterson -- I'm not giving up an a 6'5" 240 pound lefty no matter how old he is in AA. The light bulb can turn on at any second.
The point isn't that Baty is great, it's that he's just 1 of several good IF prospects in the org and they have a recent track record of both drafting and developing position players well (most of them were similarly good and not great prospects).
My point wasn't picking about Baty. My point was there is no real argument for the Mets having one of the better farm systems in baseball. Based on what?
If we are talking organizational strength vs. other farm systems then I still fully disagree especially considering how far (and bust potential because of this) Mauricio, Baty, Vientos and Newton (the 4 best outside of Gimenez) are from the big leagues.
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I never said they had one of the better farm systems in baseball because they don't.
If we are talking organizational strength vs. other farm systems then I still fully disagree especially considering how far (and bust potential because of this) Mauricio, Baty, Vientos and Newton (the 4 best outside of Gimenez) are from the big leagues.
Of those mentioned, Mauricio is the one with top ten prospect/star potential. Kelenic was the other. Allan has a chance to be the third.
half-assing it is not what anyone wants. As bad as they've been they need to hit rock bottom to truly build a contender and sadly they haven't done that. As a fan I would support if it was properly orchestrated.
@JonHeyman
4h
Mets are committed sellers now, but they dont believe they can do total rebuild in NY. Syndergaard is coveted by others (esp Yanks but many teams) but remains unlikely to be dealt now. The hope is 1 good start for Wheeler will draw interest. Vargas probably most likely to go.
Quote:
I never said they had one of the better farm systems in baseball because they don't.
If we are talking organizational strength vs. other farm systems then I still fully disagree especially considering how far (and bust potential because of this) Mauricio, Baty, Vientos and Newton (the 4 best outside of Gimenez) are from the big leagues.
Statistically speaking I think that's just off. Using simple math there are 30 teams in baseball so the league mean is 6.6 prospects in the top 200 counting all positions, not just IF. I don't know the exact distribution of positions of those in the top 200 but I'd guess about half of those players are either OF or P. So the mean number of infielders each team would have on that list would also be half (3). If we can accept that those 5 Met infielders qualify (as FG has them ranked) they are clearly better represented in that area than league average. BA even has a 6th IF'er (Alvarez) ranked ahead of Newton/Vientos.
Obviously the flip side of this coin is having 0 OF'ers in the top 200 which is a huge weakness and pretty pathetically below average. And even worse is likely having 0 P, though that's at least as slightly more volatile position to predict and there's at least some hope. Kay and Szapucki have made lists here and there, the high draft picks the last couple years have upside. Dealing Dunn and Kelenic was a shortsighted move that further weakened an already imbalanced system.
half-assing it is not what anyone wants. As bad as they've been they need to hit rock bottom to truly build a contender and sadly they haven't done that. As a fan I would support if it was properly orchestrated.
They missed the boat on the rebuild - the time to do that was before signing JDG and giving him a NTC and before trading Kelenic/Dunn. JDG's contract is perfectly fair value so I guess they could still theoretically get something done, but I honestly don't think a full rebuild was a no-brainer decision then and it's even less of 1 now with Alonso being a star and McNeil being for real.
This roster has 6 players in their mid-20's, with multiple years of control, who have made all star teams. I don't think there are a lot of other teams who can say that. JDG + Familia are a little older than "mid-20's" and they would bring that number to 8. Rosario + Dom Smith aren't all stars but they are cheap and have upside. All of those guys were homegrown except Diaz.
If they can't successfully go for it with this group, when will they ever?
With Cole as an impending UFA, this is a big year for Houston to strike again while the iron is hot.
Call them up and offer Noah for Kyle Tucker + Seth Beer + JB Bukauskas. See if you can attach Familia to the deal or get them to kick in some cash.
With Cole as an impending UFA, this is a big year for Houston to strike again while the iron is hot.
Call them up and offer Noah for Kyle Tucker + Seth Beer + JB Bukauskas. See if you can attach Familia to the deal or get them to kick in some cash.
I like Tucker but they don't have playing time for another COF'er.
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to poo-poo the idea of trading Syndergaard.
With Cole as an impending UFA, this is a big year for Houston to strike again while the iron is hot.
Call them up and offer Noah for Kyle Tucker + Seth Beer + JB Bukauskas. See if you can attach Familia to the deal or get them to kick in some cash.
I like Tucker but they don't have playing time for another COF'er.
I'm not sure Seth Beer is a fit for the Mets either. He is a poor defender and is likely a 1B/DH in the future. If I were the Mets I would demand Forrest Whitley in the package.
Did he really say that?
#3 today
Kay 5.2 / 6k / 4r / 7h
Gimenez 2/3, rbi, sb (up to .260 on the year)
Low scoring game for Columbia but Vientos has an RBI
Alas, he has been MUCH better than Ramos this year.
Alas, he has been MUCH better than Ramos this year.
Yeah, it only took until age 30 for him to get there.
Hes had a hot week...lets not get crazy.
This org just throws guys out there to sink or swim, and often in non-ideal circumstances (like TDA coming back quicker than expected from TJS). That's not to say they made the wrong decision with cutting TDA - he had numerous chances here and he was always hurt, always inconsistent. It just wasn't going to happen here bc of the rotten culture. That's the mistake they need to change. Not cutting a fringe talent like TDA.
IOW if the Mets do not plan to re-sign Syndrgaard then trade him.
To me the Mets rebuild could include dealing any of:
Syndergaard
Wheeler
Matz
Vargas
Familia
Gsellman
Lugo
Wilson
Frazier
Ramos
Lagares
Hecchavaria
Davis
Smith (I've read Smith's value is very high right now)
I would even trade Alonso - for a haul, his bat is special, but he plays one of the more easily replaced positions on the field. If you can get a massive haul for him I'd do it.
Basically I guess deGrom, Conforto, McNeil, and Diaz are the only players I wouldn't trade. And Diaz not because of his play, but because of the investment.
who knows, another good week of Cano maybe someone gets interested in him.
You have to hit rock bottom. People say how great the Astros are, but look at how many high picks they had. #1 overall 2 years in a row, top 5 a bunch of years.
Good List. They're only going to pay for one of Noah / Wheeler....so the other should be traded for value.
I would also hang onto Lugo and/or Gsell. They're proven major leaguers and could be used as starters. There's pitching help in the minors, but it's 3 years away.
I'm going to pretend I didn't see your willingness to trade Alonso. He's a core player, no team could offer the equivalent and trading him would cause a fan revolt.
The Mets are competing in a tough division, they really have a long way to go to get to the upper level of the NL East.
I'm skeptical how much any team will give up for Wheeler and I'd prefer to resign him. I very much doubt anyone would give up the type of prospect (Gore, Pache, etc) necessary to consider moving Syndergaard.
All the rest will likely bring back depth fodder prospects at best. If the Wilpons were willing to pay their salaries perhaps they'd bring back something a little better than expected like Cabrera last year.
Good List. They're only going to pay for one of Noah / Wheeler....so the other should be traded for value.
I would also hang onto Lugo and/or Gsell. They're proven major leaguers and could be used as starters. There's pitching help in the minors, but it's 3 years away.
I'm going to pretend I didn't see your willingness to trade Alonso. He's a core player, no team could offer the equivalent and trading him would cause a fan revolt.
The Mets are competing in a tough division, they really have a long way to go to get to the upper level of the NL East.
Let's put it this way I'd trade Alonso or Smith. Not both.
Given reports that Smith's value is trending up, then deal him, but no way the Mets should continue down this path of having players play out of position.
Smith has been far more athletic than what I read, but he's a 1B, not a LF. and him being in LF has cost the team games.
My only rationale for trading Alonso is positional overlap and probably him being available for a king's ransom.
He has 3 years of ARB control and since he doesn't amass saves, he will be pretty cost efficient in those years.
The closest recent comparable who got traded was Brad Hand at age 28 last year - who had 3 years of team control around 7m/year. He was traded for Francisco Mejia, who at the time was 1 of the highest profile catchers in the minors at AAA, though he hasn't broken out and had some questions about risk - but he was a very high upside prospect at a premium position.
He has 3 years of ARB control and since he doesn't amass saves, he will be pretty cost efficient in those years.
The closest recent comparable who got traded was Brad Hand at age 28 last year - who had 3 years of team control around 7m/year. He was traded for Francisco Mejia, who at the time was 1 of the highest profile catchers in the minors at AAA, though he hasn't broken out and had some questions about risk - but he was a very high upside prospect at a premium position.
Exactly, perfect reason to trade Lugo.
He is not going to be a difference maker on the Mets and likely would need a new contract before the Mets are competitive.
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he is 29 years old, currently the 23rd best reliever in all MLB and the most valuable reliever on the Mets (per FG). He has a 2.9 era and a career best 11.8k/9.
He has 3 years of ARB control and since he doesn't amass saves, he will be pretty cost efficient in those years.
The closest recent comparable who got traded was Brad Hand at age 28 last year - who had 3 years of team control around 7m/year. He was traded for Francisco Mejia, who at the time was 1 of the highest profile catchers in the minors at AAA, though he hasn't broken out and had some questions about risk - but he was a very high upside prospect at a premium position.
Exactly, perfect reason to trade Lugo.
He is not going to be a difference maker on the Mets and likely would need a new contract before the Mets are competitive.
Doesn't he have the same amount of years of control as Conforto? We have a lot more corner OFs than we do good relievers who can also start games.
DMM said yesterday not one OF in the Mets top 30 prospects (if I read correctly). Zero. And at the ML level they have Conforto and who? Smith, McNeil or Davis playing out of position?
relievers, especially middle relievers are not a commodity you hold onto, especially at the trade deadline when teams are desperate.
I would trade lugo in a heartbeat for the right offer. I wouldn't give him away, but on a list of untouchables (for me) he doesn't make it.
The Mets have almost no one who is a legit corner OFer after Conforto.
To me the best trade the Mets could make is Wheeler + Lugo for 1 of the Braves elite CF prospects. Both are ranked in the same general ballpark as Kelenic was, same age, and actually producing better 1 level higher (AA). I doubt they'd trade Pache but he'd be my preference due to defense, but I'd for sure be willing to settle for Waters who may actually have a better bat. Either would likely be our #1 prospect even over Mauricio.
That type of move would greatly improve the Braves chances of contending right now and deal from a position of strength where they have numbers with Riley, Acuna, Inciarte, and both of those prospects on the way.
DMM said yesterday not one OF in the Mets top 30 prospects (if I read correctly). Zero. And at the ML level they have Conforto and who? Smith, McNeil or Davis playing out of position?
relievers, especially middle relievers are not a commodity you hold onto, especially at the trade deadline when teams are desperate.
I would trade lugo in a heartbeat for the right offer. I wouldn't give him away, but on a list of untouchables (for me) he doesn't make it.
The Mets have almost no one who is a legit corner OFer after Conforto.
Conforto, Nimmo, McNeil and Smith all look like they can play adequate corner OF defense (maybe I'm stretching with Smith, but he's holding his own out there and he's new at the position) but can't cut it in CF. Somehow, McNeil actually looks good in the OF. All of then are under team control for multiple years going out.
I think Lugo would be tougher to replace. Conforto might also get us a better return (fangraphs had him outside the top 50 best trade assets, but as an honorable mention). I'm not proposing trading Conforto because I don't think he's good, it's more because he would get us a nice return and we have in-house candidates to replace him who are good baseball players.
We really need pitching depth, a C and a CF. Dealing from pitching depth will make it that much harder to compete in 2020 IMO.
That's exactly my argument to trade Conforto. He'd bring a better return.
McNeil might be "out of position" but he's been playing solid defense out there. We've even recently seen some runners respect his arm and are afraid to take extra bases. Fangraphs has McNeil graded out better defensively than Conforto this year (and Smith grading out similarly).
I don't think we can afford to trade McNeil and Nimmo's value is too low to bother trading. Conforto would return a lot more than Smith IMO, and Smith is under longer team control and maybe can be a similar player for us going forward.
IMO, the only way to misallocate resources is to keep all 4 of these guys and let Mickey mix and match. Cano is going to play 2B, and Lowrie will be back at some point making $11M. Corner OF at the MLB level (not system depth level as you've guys have stated) is a strength that we have and I don't think it's ridiculous to suggest that we try and trade one of those guys to better balance things out.
Conforto is one of the only OF on the Mets not playing out of position. His bat prototypes the best of any Met as a corner OF and he's young enough to be part of the core and a reliable part of that core for the foreseeable future.
McNeil has been fine in the OF, but he plays other positions and plays them well, he should have been the 2B, but can also play 3B. And that's where he should be.
Smith has a SSS, but has been better than advertised.
If the Mets trade Conforto and keep McNeil and Smith as OFers it would be a ridiculously short sighted move.
The most important thing is I vehemently disagree with you on 2020. The Mets should not be building to be contenders in 2020, that's how they wound up trading Kelenic, etc. for Cano, etc..
They should be rebuilding with no timetable or expectations.
It's not like we have a great prospect corps of guys who are going to be arriving in 2021 that'll supplement Conforto, McNeil, DeGrom, Alonso. Who even knows if DeGrom will still be healthy by then? Compared to what the Braves have, we're dramatically outgunned. Trading Wheeler and Vargas isn't going to move the needle meaningfully in that regard.
If you traded everyone with value that's either over 30, or has less than 4 years of team control (Thor, DeGrom, Wheeler, Lugo, Conforto, Diaz, Vargas, etc.) you'd likely have the best farm system in baseball and could add a top 7 pick in 2020 and top 3 pick in 2021. What do you think loaded teams like the Dodgers/Astros would give up for DeGrom? You'd also have clean books aside from the Cano deal going forward after 2020.
How do you think the fortunes of team would be looking in 2021 if we followed that path and executed it well? You can say my plan is crazy (and it probably is), but IMO, it would be the best way to set the Mets up for the 2020s to be the best decade of Mets baseball in a while.
Sorry for ranting, I genuinely like all of the players I just contemplated trading, but I'm just sick of seeing seasons like this.
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if years of control are the same. And as PJ said the Mets don't have a lot of OF depth. In the corners they have some based on playing guys out of position (Mcneil, Dom) but those guys should not be out there.
That's exactly my argument to trade Conforto. He'd bring a better return.
McNeil might be "out of position" but he's been playing solid defense out there. We've even recently seen some runners respect his arm and are afraid to take extra bases. Fangraphs has McNeil graded out better defensively than Conforto this year (and Smith grading out similarly).
I don't think we can afford to trade McNeil and Nimmo's value is too low to bother trading. Conforto would return a lot more than Smith IMO, and Smith is under longer team control and maybe can be a similar player for us going forward.
IMO, the only way to misallocate resources is to keep all 4 of these guys and let Mickey mix and match. Cano is going to play 2B, and Lowrie will be back at some point making $11M. Corner OF at the MLB level (not system depth level as you've guys have stated) is a strength that we have and I don't think it's ridiculous to suggest that we try and trade one of those guys to better balance things out.
This team still doesn't hit enough though, so trading 1 of their best hitters who is under team control seems counterproductive to me.
I know they also aren't good enough in the BP so by that same standard trading Lugo may not be a good idea, but IMO it's much easier and cheaper to sign BP assets like Lugo via FA than it is to sign someone like Conforto - who would probably cost $55-100m on the open market.
Just last year we saw guys like Andrew Miller, David Robertson, and Ottavino who are comparable or better than Lugo get basically $25m in FA. So that is why I think it's far more prudent to keep Conforto and trade someone like Lugo if it can return a blue chip asset.
Tearing things down is counter productive to me - especially before seeing what the team is like without a completely incompetent manager. That would have been a valid decision in the offseason when JDG/Thor had peak value and before seeing Mcneil/Alonso fully break out. But IMO now more than ever it is not worth:
- burning 2 more years of cheap control of Alonso
- burning 2 more years of cheap control of Mcneil
- risking a minimized return for JDG due to NTC (or contract)
- selling low on Thor
- burning 2 cheap years of Diaz (or risking minimal return)
Get a real manager, make smart moves (esp. BP + defense), and outspend BVW's mistakes last offseason. That is the path forward.
I'd trade him for a deal headlined by 1 of the Braves CF prospects (or another CF comparable to Kelenic). It's a huge organizational need and would correct BVW's biggest mistake (other than taking on Cano's $$ - but that's at least just a financial mistake).
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until 2021 to try and be contenders then IMO they should tear the whole thing down and try to do a Houston Astros style rebuild. That includes trading DeGrom. Why hold onto to a highly pitcher in his 30s if you aren't trying to contend in 2020. Fangraphs had him as a top 25 trade asset, even with his contract. Why not solicit a bidding war and LOAD UP on young talent?
Tearing things down is counter productive to me - especially before seeing what the team is like without a completely incompetent manager. That would have been a valid decision in the offseason when JDG/Thor had peak value and before seeing Mcneil/Alonso fully break out. But IMO now more than ever it is not worth:
- burning 2 more years of cheap control of Alonso
- burning 2 more years of cheap control of Mcneil
- risking a minimized return for JDG due to NTC (or contract)
- selling low on Thor
- burning 2 cheap years of Diaz (or risking minimal return)
Get a real manager, make smart moves (esp. BP + defense), and outspend BVW's mistakes last offseason. That is the path forward.
So if you take that approach, we probably want to compete in 2020 right? The worst of both worlds would be to keep these guys but bomb again in 2020. Then we don't have the loaded farm system that my sell off scenario gives AND we don't have the fun that comes from a contending team.
I'm not necessarily opposed with running it back in 2020 with a new manager and trying to make small scale smart moves, but given the past decade, I don't expect ownership to invest any more money into payroll and we have a lot of money on the books next year. So we're really relying on (i) a better manager, (ii) a few savvy moves, and (iii) better performances from in-house guys (possible, but possible regression from McNeil, Alonso, Lugo could offset that).
The Mets are not a player away or two players away.
they are more than that.
So, instead of patching shit with mediocre or worse free agents or making stupid trades that give you a false sense of "come and get us" you have an actual plan for adding in key areas, extending key core members to buy out some arb/FA years, etc.
What's your plan for contending in 2020? Play better?
the team already on paper will be worse, and they apparently don't have payroll to spend or they have it but are not likely to spend it.
Probably the smart move since his value is likely in the toilet.
The Mets are not a player away or two players away.
they are more than that.
So, instead of patching shit with mediocre or worse free agents or making stupid trades that give you a false sense of "come and get us" you have an actual plan for adding in key areas, extending key core members to buy out some arb/FA years, etc.
What's your plan for contending in 2020? Play better?
the team already on paper will be worse, and they apparently don't have payroll to spend or they have it but are not likely to spend it.
I think we're on the same page. I don't disagree with anything you said here.
@AnthonyDiComo
The Mets indeed appear willing to listen on Edwin Diaz, as @JeffPassan
noted, but their asking price is said to be so sky-high that it's basically a non-starter. It would be shocking to see Diaz move before the July 31 deadline.
2:35 PM Jul 24, 2019 Twitter for Android
What's your plan for contending in 2020? Play better?
Simple - if they want to contend, act like a contender.
The Cubs record in 2014 was 73-89. They hired Joe Maddon and they won 97 games and went to NLCS. Then won the WS in 2016. The Cubs 4 best players those 2 years were Kris Bryant (rookie in '15), Anthony Rizzo, Jon Lester, and Arrieta. Alonso, McNeil, JDG, Thor are easily that talented as a foundation, 2 of them have proven it beyond any doubt obviously as lynchpins in beating the cubs in the 2015 playoffs.
Guess whose contract runs out this offseason? Joe Maddon. And he isn't the only proven veteran manager out there. Dusty Baker and Girardi are options too. And Mike Sciosa.
Hiring a legitimate manager is a huge step #1 that should be obvious for any team looking to content.
Step #2 should be spending to get to a top 10 payroll level (on the field, not including deferred payments and guys on DL). They should be able to qualify + attempt to resign Wheeler. Attempt to extend Syndergaard (as the Yanks did with Severino and Phils did with Nola last year). And spend on 2-3 more pitchers to improve depth. The every day lineup is more locked in so it will require some judgement calls + trades to rebalance, but they have assets to trade like Dom Smith/Rosario.
If they don't want to try to contend (hire competent people and spend reasonable $) then the rest is noise. Why even buy into an abrupt decision to "tear it down" led by BVW? Chaim Bloom leading an effort like that would have made sense. Turning on a dime under BVW makes none - especially after only evaluating 1 season with an inherited disaster of a manager. If they aren't serious about trying to contend right now why will they be in the future when the odds would indicate they won't have both a Cy Young contender and young potential MVP candidate under contract for multiple years at the same time?
Putting a top 10 payroll on the field should not be fantasy land. I don't disagree that all evidence indicates it is - but that is the problem. And that is the problem all of us have soberly called out since 2013-14. Well except 1 person.
It's just as fantasy land to expect that there's a genius GM out there willing to work for the Wilpons who can compete consistently without a higher payroll. Billy Beane's teams won less than 80 games 3 of the previous 4 years. Last year was the Devil Rays first winning season in 5 years. Even the best run orgs struggle to compete consistently without a competitive budget.
This org needs to get better both in how they are run and how much they spend. Houston is both smarter than us and spends $30m more on the field. Both areas need to be addressed and neither should be dismissed just because the Wilpons track record indicates neither are likely. Them not being able to execute the plan doesn't make it the wrong plan.
@ernestdove
5m
SOURCE: Mets 18 year old pitching prospect Simeon Woods-Richardson has been promoted to Class High A St. Lucie Mets. Organization being very aggressive here.
Its HOW theyve spent it. Ces. Cano. Ramos was their FOURTH choice as catcher and it shows. Legares. Familia. The problem is HOW theyve spent the money, well the primary problem. Secondary problem is they wont spend enough to cover up for their poor contracts. Ever hear a Yankee fan bring upHow Ellsbury contract is holding them back?
@ernestdove
5m
SOURCE: Mets 18 year old pitching prospect Simeon Woods-Richardson has been promoted to Class High A St. Lucie Mets. Organization being very aggressive here.
Excited to see what he can do and mature into if it doesnt get to his head. Not a concern, but if he works his ass off, hes physically got it.
Its HOW theyve spent it. Ces. Cano. Ramos was their FOURTH choice as catcher and it shows. Legares. Familia. The problem is HOW theyve spent the money, well the primary problem. Secondary problem is they wont spend enough to cover up for their poor contracts. Ever hear a Yankee fan bring upHow Ellsbury contract is holding them back?
Exactly but it's a chicken or the egg self-fulfilling demise. They end up with Cano because they refuse to spend on MM and Harper. They resigned Bruce because they couldn't afford Cain. Every offseason is Jason Bay and Mo Vaughn all over again. We don't outspend the Wright/Cespedes contracts even with insurance money coming in. My biggest gripe re: the Cano deal was the risk given that they won't outspend. Hell, they wouldn't even outspend the Vargas contract. The fact that his presence in any way impacted their budget to add additional depth is a laughing stock.
Until they stop acting like laughing stocks they won't stop being laughing stocks.
I read the Nationals are interested in Ramos, but the Mets ownership would not likely allow a trade.
Shit like that is infuriating. Rather than risk a player goes to a rival and performs ok, they'd rather watch him shit the bed on their own team. Or hope he plays better.
I read the Nationals are interested in Ramos, but the Mets ownership would not likely allow a trade.
Shit like that is infuriating. Rather than risk a player goes to a rival and performs ok, they'd rather watch him shit the bed on their own team. Or hope he plays better.
Cheap, nepotism inclined, and stupid is no way to go through life.
4 HR's in 59 professional AB's as a 17 year old.
Obviously ridiculously SSS but he's slashing .364/.488/.576 in KING.
I've read his defense is good too.
Maybe the "generational" catcher we've been waiting for since Piazza? too much hype? Ok, I'd settle for major league regular.
whatever.
Hopefully he's playing full season as an 18-year old next year then we learn some stuff.
Freddy Valdez off to a decent start too, though he's doing it in DSL which I'm told is far lesser than even short season.
Tony D got bombed in BING today. He's got an 11+ ERA since his promotion.
Ruben Tejada and Dilson Herrera both still crushing AAA.
Any value with either in a trade?
Ali Sanchez having a decent year with the bat, another C I read was defense first (good CS percent IIRC), maybe give him a shot.
Today's start was obviously a stinker but Tony D's first start in AA wasn't that bad (6ip / 4 runs) and pitchers without elite stuff usually need some time to adjust to a level. 7 walks in 9 innings is double the rate he had in A+ so there may be some nerves in play too.
that's the problem with SSS and defense metrics IMO. eventually players playing out of position are likely to be exposed (obviously with some exception).
I think going into tonight the Mets have 34 unearned runs in 100 games but having trouble finding full team stats on that relative to other teams, but obviously the bigger problem is more routine 'plays not made' as compared to errors.
It's literally impossible to fathom what it would be like to watch a team that plays good defense that actually helps win games vs. lose them.
Quote:
until 2021 to contend, it's a question of being patient.
The Mets are not a player away or two players away.
they are more than that.
So, instead of patching shit with mediocre or worse free agents or making stupid trades that give you a false sense of "come and get us" you have an actual plan for adding in key areas, extending key core members to buy out some arb/FA years, etc.
What's your plan for contending in 2020? Play better?
the team already on paper will be worse, and they apparently don't have payroll to spend or they have it but are not likely to spend it.
I think we're on the same page. I don't disagree with anything you said here.
A friend of mine at the Dodgers left me a belly laugh voicemail on this .. its true
Quote:
In comment 14506268 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
until 2021 to contend, it's a question of being patient.
The Mets are not a player away or two players away.
they are more than that.
So, instead of patching shit with mediocre or worse free agents or making stupid trades that give you a false sense of "come and get us" you have an actual plan for adding in key areas, extending key core members to buy out some arb/FA years, etc.
What's your plan for contending in 2020? Play better?
the team already on paper will be worse, and they apparently don't have payroll to spend or they have it but are not likely to spend it.
I think we're on the same page. I don't disagree with anything you said here.
A friend of mine at the Dodgers left me a belly laugh voicemail on this .. its true
Sorry that was regarding Daz was available ... at a huge price though
I read the Nationals are interested in Ramos, but the Mets ownership would not likely allow a trade.
Yeah, that shit is really dispiriting. I can see placiong a premium on trading w/Yankees and asking for a little more, but if they've got the best offer, fire away.
And I'd drive Ramos to DC.
2015 - 83 wins, disappointing year, hired Dusty
2016-2017 - averaged 96 wins under Dusty
2018 - fired Dusty went right back to disappointing with 82 wins
2019 - started the year 12 games under .500, mostly because of their BP, have now turned things around bc the BP started performing better but will most likely end up with ~80-85ish wins.
Spend money in the bullpen, hire a competent and experienced manager (maybe even Dusty), and make a few smart tweaks to rebalance the roster + improve defense up the middle.
I really don't understand why they wouldn't at least try doing that before deciding to blow things up and letting BVW make more big, franchise altering trades.
Kaye
Wolf
Allen
Baty
Newton
Mauricio
Woods Richardson
Kilome
Gimenez
Vientos
The Mets will have one of the better farms in the league
Smith. Alonso Mcneil. Conforto Rosario Nimmo
Degrom Syndergaard.
This is a solid core to move forward
Just change the fucking manager
No stealing
No bunting
No hit and run
No imagination and manufacturing runs
And awfulmanagement of the bullpen
Baseball America ranks the Mets system... 26th! GOod lord.
but there are some twitter rumblings (not sure how reliably sourced) that Syndergaard was overheard yelling at his agent on the phone to "get me out of here".
but there are some twitter rumblings (not sure how reliably sourced) that Syndergaard was overheard yelling at his agent on the phone to "get me out of here".
full disclosure - the account that I'm seeing this on is a Yankees-related twitter persona, but one that has a pretty decent track record.
Michael Mayer
@mikemayerMMO
24m24 minutes ago
OPS this year:
Zack Wheeler .729
Steven Matz .613
Jacob deGrom .557
Juan Lagares .508
Noah Syndergaard .364
I hope he has a crazy good 2nd half, but really what's the point?
7IP 4H 0R 1BB 9K's
because the fans would accept nothing less.
Not sure why Diaz was even in the game.
Looked like it hit him in the lower leg/foot. Walked off under his own power.
A DL stint might be good for him, mutes the trade talk and saves him, let's him get his head straight for the stretch to provide maybe something for him to build off going forward.
Michael Mayer
@mikemayerMMO
Mets 17-year-old catcher prospect Francisco Alvarez has played 18 professional games (7 with GCL and 11 with Kingsport):
.397/.500/.667, 5 2B, 4 HR, 15 RBI, 9 BB/16 K
8:30 AM - 25 Jul 2019
Mathew Brownstein
@MBrownstein89
4h4 hours ago
Mathew Brownstein Retweeted Michael Mayer
Alvarez has 10 multi-hit performances in 18 games this season. #Mets
Good Fundies Brian
@OmarMinayaFan
41m41 minutes ago
A little more perspective on JD Davis, who the Mets traded minor leaguers to acquire while letting Wilmer Flores walk.
Wilmer posted a higher bWAR than Davis has now in 2014, 2015, 2016 and 2018. If you prefer fWAR, it's 2014, 2015, 2016 and 2017.
That logic would say Cano trade makes sense because hes out
Reduced Kelenic every year the last ten years lol
That logic would say Cano trade makes sense because hes out
Reduced Kelenic every year the last ten years lol
No, you'd in theory compare Cano with another 2B the Mets have who Cano replaced (McNeil).
I think he was just showing a utility guy vs utility guy - though Davis can play OF, but is not a defensive plus guy.
but like I said not sure the comp makes sense anyway.
wallace matthews
@OysterBayBomber
Yankees-Mets trade embargo is why it's unlikely Zack Wheeler heads to the Bronx
Who here would trade JD Davis for Flores?
Real comp, JD is the better, younger, cheaper, more versatile player with more upside. I truly dont get what comparing fractions of WAR from previous years, I just dont get what point that proves. Literally, after todays game JD May now have happgained that fraction of WAR to push him ahead of previous years Flores. Such a stupid tweet.
Sorry for the anger lol
wallace matthews
@OysterBayBomber
Yankees-Mets trade embargo is why it's unlikely Zack Wheeler heads to the Bronx
Expect a lot of stupid over the next few days. Its all out clicks, retweets and follows. Getting worse and worse each year
I think cheaper was the most attractive quality you included when he's compared with Flores. The rest is probably, unfortunately, noise.
Who here would trade JD Davis for Flores?
Real comp, JD is the better, younger, cheaper, more versatile player with more upside. I truly dont get what comparing fractions of WAR from previous years, I just dont get what point that proves. Literally, after todays game JD May now have happgained that fraction of WAR to push him ahead of previous years Flores. Such a stupid tweet.
Sorry for the anger lol
Shecky,
I love you but that's not a fair comparison. Davis or Flores... AND Adolph, Manea and Santana would be the decision. The Mets had Flores and let him go. They paid the price with those 3 to add Davis. Maybe none of them end up being anything but they also would have represented pieces you could improve the team.
Mathew Brownstein
@MBrownstein89
4m4 minutes ago
Jacob deGrom through his first 21 starts in 2018:
164 strikeouts, 32 walks
Jacob deGrom through his first 21 starts in 2019:
163 strikeouts, 32 walks
#Mets @Mets @MetsMerized #LGM
Santana was a legit secondary prospect, but non are likely to ever actually make it fringe, replaceable assets. At least IMO.
Again, it comparing Davis this year to Flores past seasons like the tweet did. But simply asking, who would trade Davis today for Flores? It was one of the few and rare non backwards moves made so much to criticize, yet this was half ass backwards critiqued
Ken Rosenthal
Verified account @Ken_Rosenthal
An option #Mets are exploring, per sources: Trading Syndergaard and signing Wheeler to an extension. NYM would benefit from return for Syndergaard while keeping Wheeler, a quality starting pitcher who otherwise would depart in free agency. @TheAthleticMLB
3:36 PM - 25 Jul 2019
JD Davis 2019 WAR ~1
500k
Wilmer, Santana, Manea and Adolph 2019 WAR ~ 0
4mm
🤚
Matt Ehalt
Verified account @MattEhalt
Mets person on Yanks: "Wed be crazy to put ourselves in the position of having them win with one of our guys."
Yanks person on Mets: "Its their issue. Its not our issue.
My main issue with Davis is that he's not playing every day. After the deadline, we need to see what we have in him. This is the EXACT same crap we did with Wilmer Flores. We never really gave him a consistent chance. Let's not make the same mistake with Davis.
Anyone else up for it?
Matt Ehalt
Verified account @MattEhalt
Mets person on Yanks: "Wed be crazy to put ourselves in the position of having them win with one of our guys."
Yanks person on Mets: "Its their issue. Its not our issue.
that this crosses their mind and all in running their business is a sign of a real problem in the high levels of the org. They need to stop listening to WFAN and realize a) the hosts, outside of Roberts, dont have a god damned clue about baseball and b) people who have the time or inclination to call into WFAN represent about 2% of actual fans, and it's far from the most intelligent 2%.
Anyone else up for it?
would be a really great haul.
Quote:
for Lux, Urias, Verdugo & Dustin May.
Anyone else up for it?
would be a really great haul.
Yep, would be a monster haul. Would also give the Dodgers 3 guys who could really help them in the playoffs with multiple years of team control.
@Buster_ESPN
Rival evaluators say they believe the Mets are fully intent on dealing Noah Syndergaard before the trade deadline. "It's beyond listening," said one. "They want to move him."
@Buster_ESPN
Rival evaluators say they believe the Mets are fully intent on dealing Noah Syndergaard before the trade deadline. "It's beyond listening," said one. "They want to move him."
It would be a very Mets move. And based on BVWs track record with trades, we are screwed. Theres no hope for this team.
My main issue with Davis is that he's not playing every day. After the deadline, we need to see what we have in him. This is the EXACT same crap we did with Wilmer Flores. We never really gave him a consistent chance. Let's not make the same mistake with Davis.
I don't think you kill BVW for the Davis trade and I don't think anyone is, but it's not a trade I think should have been made.
What actual role on this team does JD Davis serve?
He's 26 years old and primarily a 1B/3B and not good defensively.
He had 5 career OF games in the majors before this season and even in the minors just 25 career OF starts.
So what's his role? bench bat?
I'd roll the dice with secondary prospects panning out before trading them for a guy in this role - especially one who provides negative D.
Jarrett Seidler
@jaseidler
28s
if Martino is floating Garca and Florian and the Mets dont beat that (they very well might not) this is gonna be a bloodbath
Agree.
However and I get killed for this opinion by some people, I don't feel like Syndergaard has reached his full potential.
I know people hate hearing it, but he's not a smart pitcher a lot of the time still. Hard to explain what i mean, but he doesn't set up batters like Clemens would and I think his stuff isn't THAT far from Clemens. Other than the split-finger, which Syndergaard's slider acts a lot like, they are not that different.
just Syndergaard pitches like he doesn't trust his stuff or only trusts his fast ball.
I wish he'd get someone to unlock what I think is still left unlocked.
Or he is what he is, which is a top 10% pitcher, and that's fine, but I think he has ace potential.
Michael Mayer
@mikemayerMMO
The Mets have released left-handed pitcher PJ Conlon.
5:40 PM - 25 Jul 2019
@martinonyc
Yankees would likely trade Garcia and florial for Syndergaard but that wouldnt be enough for Mets
5:09 PM Jul 25, 2019Twitter for iPhone
He's 21+ in A+ and not doing anything special IMO.
I would trade with the Yankees, I'd trade with anyone, but BVW or the Mets should not be shit on for refusing to deal Syndergaard with two+ years of control for that package.