Ralph Vacchiano
@RVacchianoSNY
·
2h
QB Daniel Jones, the sixth overall pick, has agreed to terms on his rookie contract and will be at the Giants' rookies first practice tomorrow (per @RapSheet
). He's due to get a four-year, $25.6 million deal with a $16.7M signing bonus.
Either today our franchise signed our next starting qb for a (quasi) generation, or we set ourselves back a long time.
I think Daniel is a capable qb and should at least have a mediocre career - at least. At most, much more. If he goes bust I am most likely going to blame the organization for mishandling his development.
Excited stuff though. I'm looking forward to positive DJ news during camp. Especially his disproving reported draft prep weaknesses.
I do maintain a preference for him red-shirting this year, for multiple reasons. It just seems sitting at first (don't have time to flesh out all reasons this instance, but happy to later) leads to higher likelihood of a more successful career with the team that drafted them. For the fan, delayed gratification, if you will.
RE: The NFL always prorated the signing bonus for cap purposes. Â
You can't have a 20 million signing bonus paid out all in year 1 for cap purposes. You can have a roster bonus, but I think there are limits to that. The bonus, which is guranteed is paid out by the year usually, and than paid the balance if a player is cut. The Giants seemed to have decided to just give it all up to him upfront. Was this a good faith gesture by them or a shrewd negotiating move by his agent (the team is going to want their first round QB there on day 1 with money they have to pay him anyway)? Who knows and I only care from an intellectually curious standpoint. He is signed and here ready to go day 1.
Singing bonus: Money earned by a player for signing his contract. Typically paid out within the first 12-18 months. Prorated against the salary cap for the life of the contract (five-season maximum). This is how the Lions could afford to give Matthew Stafford a $50 million signing bonus in 2017. For cap purposes, Stafford's signing bonus counted for $10 million against the Lions' salary cap for each of the next five seasons.
What you suggest is more like guaranteed salary which is paid and is set against the cap in the year it is contracted to be paid, regardless if the player is on the team or not.
The delay with Jones may be due to the terms of payment of the signing bonus(in 6 or 18 months).
Another possinility is offset language in the contract which may allow the team to recoup guaranteed salary if a 1st round pick is cut before the 4th year. Link with explanation below.
Not saying this was the case with DJ, but it is possible. This was the reason Joey Bosa and others have held out or were late in signing.
But in the fourth year comes the debate over offset language. If there is offset language, it allows the team to save money when releasing a player. Let's say a first-rounder is due $2 million in his fourth year. If he's released, and then agrees to a $2 million deal with a new team, the original team is completely off the hook. He receives $2 million from his new club, and the team that drafted him washes its hands of the situation. If there is no offset language, the discarded player receives the guaranteed money from his original team and the full salary from his new team. The original team can't merely allow the new team to pay the remaining guaranteed money as part of the new deal.
Ah thanks for clearing that up, for whatever reason a lot Â
purposes. This is a good faith move by the Giants due to the time value of money. It is actually costing them more money to do this in real world value.
Time value of money... yes. But at 2-3% interest rates, not that big a sacrifice for Giants. When I was in B-school way back when, and money market interest rates were running between 10 - 14%, THAT was some serious time value of money!
Did they sign any big time free agents this year? Â
I do not believe the Giants dropped any big bonus bucks this year.
The new guys from Cleveland were trades....they did convert some salary to bonus for the LG...but outside that...there were light on signing over checks.
This could be a shot of Jones signing his contract. Â
I do not believe the Giants dropped any big bonus bucks this year.
The new guys from Cleveland were trades....they did convert some salary to bonus for the LG...but outside that...there were light on signing over checks.
Golden Tate was this biggest at $10 million, and only one we gave any real money too. Lot's of dead money on the books this season from prorated signing bonus for OBJ, Vernon etc, but looking like at least $40-$45 million of cap space for next season (Eli coming off books being biggest savings)
But don't cry in year 4 that you are only making 2.5 million.......
Does Daniel Jones honestly look like someone who is going to cry about money? What a dumb thing to say.
This comment is for all players. Players do this all the time. "I am only make X millions this year... I'm way under paid....." They conveniently leave off the bonus they received a couple of years earlier that would reflect the real salary.
I don't see Jones complaining, but who knows about his agent.
Probably closer to 60+ million in space for next year. Right now OvertheCap has us at 60 million with 52 players under contract. That doesn't include the Daniel Jones deal yet. The cap hit won't be very big though.
If they cut Ellison, Kareem Martin & Jackrabbit that puts them at 80 million. Even if we say a 7 million dollar cap hit for Jones that puts them a tad over 73 million in cap space with 49 players under contract.
Ogletree is a potential cap casualty which would save another 8 million. They could restructure Solder's 17 million dollar hit. We are in very good shape for the future.
With the total comp already set to their great advantage, GMs have a great opportunity to not erode relationships with players and agents, and let the players dictate the terms.
If you're the Chargers, why risk the bad taste with Bosa and his team, over rounding error type money?
Seems petty and weird. Really glad the Giants didn't do that.
Who cares though if they do it? If they are outperforming their contract they should ask for more. The team will ask players to take a paycut or cut them if they are underperforming.
With the total comp already set to their great advantage, GMs have a great opportunity to not erode relationships with players and agents, and let the players dictate the terms.
If you're the Chargers, why risk the bad taste with Bosa and his team, over rounding error type money?
Seems petty and weird. Really glad the Giants didn't do that.
I don't think it's the team. I think it's more the douchebag Bosa family. Not really a coincidence that both Bosa Brothers look like they are set to miss time as rookies. Especially now when there are essentially no rookie holdouts.
RE: This could be a shot of Jones signing his contract. Â
until the coach feels he represents a better chance to win than Eli does, especially when the team feels like they can start to win more in 2019.
I get it. But that is flawed thinking unless this organization is foolish to think this could be a SB team this year.
Here is a winning year in my view - getting Jones as many reps as possible to get him experience. Which will allow us to more quickly determine if Jones was the right investment at #6.
RE: RE: Jones isn't going to see the field during the regular season Â
until the coach feels he represents a better chance to win than Eli does, especially when the team feels like they can start to win more in 2019.
I get it. But that is flawed thinking unless this organization is foolish to think this could be a SB team this year.
Here is a winning year in my view - getting Jones as many reps as possible to get him experience. Which will allow us to more quickly determine if Jones was the right investment at #6.
As a fan, I don't disagree. Unfortunately for fans, everyone that works for the Giants is working for their jobs, year to year. Winning is the only one to ensure their incomes.
Look at the flawed thinking McAdoo implemented in order to save his job, banking on Geno Smith. Or, Shurmur going to the rails to get OBJ traded.
To expect otherwise isn't rational from their perspective.
RE: RE: Jones isn't going to see the field during the regular season Â
until the coach feels he represents a better chance to win than Eli does, especially when the team feels like they can start to win more in 2019.
I get it. But that is flawed thinking unless this organization is foolish to think this could be a SB team this year.
Here is a winning year in my view - getting Jones as many reps as possible to get him experience. Which will allow us to more quickly determine if Jones was the right investment at #6.
In principle, I'm against throwing games for any reason. But, beyond that, I see no purpose in tanking a season for no reason.
Imo, there is no one size fits all approach to handling a QB's Â
development. You can find plenty of hits like Mahomes amd Rodgers benefiting from sitting. You can find plenty of examples of players benefiting from starting right away. Every QB is different and should be treated as such.
RE: RE: RE: Jones isn't going to see the field during the regular season Â
I get it. But that is flawed thinking unless this organization is foolish to think this could be a SB team this year.
Here is a winning year in my view - getting Jones as many reps as possible to get him experience. Which will allow us to more quickly determine if Jones was the right investment at #6.
In principle, I'm against throwing games for any reason. But, beyond that, I see no purpose in tanking a season for no reason.
I wouldn't categorize it as "tanking" giving the #6 pick in the draft the immediate opportunity to help us determine - sooner rather than later - if Jones was the right decision. Getting that position right is too critical.
I struggle to find any downside in starting Jones right away.
RE: RE: RE: Jones isn't going to see the field during the regular season Â
As a fan, I don't disagree. Unfortunately for fans, everyone that works for the Giants is working for their jobs, year to year. Winning is the only one to ensure their incomes.
Look at the flawed thinking McAdoo implemented in order to save his job, banking on Geno Smith. Or, Shurmur going to the rails to get OBJ traded.
To expect otherwise isn't rational from their perspective.
If you have smart management and ownership, they should rational to understand the circumstances and adjust their expectations accordingly.
If Eli is gone after this year, which seems to be the conventional thinking, what's the point if we have a winning record or not this year?
RE: Imo, there is no one size fits all approach to handling a QB's Â
development. You can find plenty of hits like Mahomes amd Rodgers benefiting from sitting. You can find plenty of examples of players benefiting from starting right away. Every QB is different and should be treated as such.
Yep.
In addition, it's the coach, team, and system too that play a part.
Let's see how he looks in preseason.
EVERY QB we've had behind Eli has basically, IMO, looked lost in the preseason. A lot of that has to do with non-starters, etc. but you can just see when a QB has "it".
Let's see if Jones is different. That would be a start.
I still believe a QB can benefit from sitting initially. I don't know why people are so against this idea or think it's just a negative for any player.
One of the knocks we've heard regarding Jones is how quickly he processes on the field. If you want that to improve, the answer isn't to just throw him onto an NFL field in regular season games where he'll need to do all of it even faster than he did in college - all that's going to do in all likelihood is make it more difficult for him.
The more a player understands on film and the firmer grasp they have on the offense as a whole, the faster they'll be able to play when the bullets are flying. There's really no time to think in an NFL pocket. You have to know exactly what everyone on your side of the ball is responsible for - you need to be able to read the defense and understand what they're throwing at you and what they're showing you. These are all areas where study can benefit a player.
If this was Kyler Murray - I'd probably say just play him right away.
But, in Jones' case, and having Eli still here, I think this is the most sensible plan of action.
Now, that being said - I will be annoyed if the team is struggling - particularly the offense through the first month and we find out that the Giants aren't willing to go to Jones until later in the year when we're just out of it and have basically nothing to play for
That's not where I want him to see his first action.
If we're something like 1-3 through the first quarter, I want to see Jones then and there. Not when we're "mathematically" out of it.
The only way Jones should stay on the sidelines beyond Halloween is if we're playing GOOD football with Eli and are winning games.
But, to start the year, I think giving the ball to Eli is a fine way to go about it for now. If he can't get the job done, quick hook. But I'm okay with giving him the opportunity behind a line that should be able to at least protect him decently and see if the results are better.
Jones can learn from seeing the game as a spectator before he's thrown into the fire. As physical a sport as this is - the mental side of it is so important. Preparation is so important.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Jones isn't going to see the field during the regular season Â
As a fan, I don't disagree. Unfortunately for fans, everyone that works for the Giants is working for their jobs, year to year. Winning is the only one to ensure their incomes.
Look at the flawed thinking McAdoo implemented in order to save his job, banking on Geno Smith. Or, Shurmur going to the rails to get OBJ traded.
To expect otherwise isn't rational from their perspective.
If you have smart management and ownership, they should rational to understand the circumstances and adjust their expectations accordingly.
If Eli is gone after this year, which seems to be the conventional thinking, what's the point if we have a winning record or not this year?
lot of young QBs got their heads permanently scrambled getting thrown to the wolves.
Eli gives them their best shot to win. You play him. Point of having a winning season this year is to win. If tanking a season makes little sense. Sitting a QB who gives you a better shot of winning this year makes even less sense.
I still believe a QB can benefit from sitting initially. I don't know why people are so against this idea or think it's just a negative for any player.
One of the knocks we've heard regarding Jones is how quickly he processes on the field.
If you want that to improve, the answer isn't to just throw him onto an NFL field in regular season games where he'll need to do all of it even faster than he did in college - all that's going to do in all likelihood is make it more difficult for him.
The more a player understands on film and the firmer grasp they have on the offense as a whole, the faster they'll be able to play when the bullets are flying.
There's really no time to think in an NFL pocket. You have to know exactly what everyone on your side of the ball is responsible for - you need to be able to read the defense and understand what they're throwing at you and what they're showing you. These are all areas where study can benefit a player.
If this was Kyler Murray - I'd probably say just play him right away.
But, in Jones' case, and having Eli still here, I think this is the most sensible plan of action.
Bingo!
All valid and sensible reasons for him to sit, initially. Give him the best possible chance to succeed.
I still believe a QB can benefit from sitting initially. I don't know why people are so against this idea or think it's just a negative for any player.
One of the knocks we've heard regarding Jones is how quickly he processes on the field. If you want that to improve, the answer isn't to just throw him onto an NFL field in regular season games where he'll need to do all of it even faster than he did in college - all that's going to do in all likelihood is make it more difficult for him.
The more a player understands on film and the firmer grasp they have on the offense as a whole, the faster they'll be able to play when the bullets are flying. There's really no time to think in an NFL pocket. You have to know exactly what everyone on your side of the ball is responsible for - you need to be able to read the defense and understand what they're throwing at you and what they're showing you. These are all areas where study can benefit a player.
If this was Kyler Murray - I'd probably say just play him right away.
But, in Jones' case, and having Eli still here, I think this is the most sensible plan of action.
Now, that being said - I will be annoyed if the team is struggling - particularly the offense through the first month and we find out that the Giants aren't willing to go to Jones until later in the year when we're just out of it and have basically nothing to play for
That's not where I want him to see his first action.
If we're something like 1-3 through the first quarter, I want to see Jones then and there. Not when we're "mathematically" out of it.
The only way Jones should stay on the sidelines beyond Halloween is if we're playing GOOD football with Eli and are winning games.
But, to start the year, I think giving the ball to Eli is a fine way to go about it for now. If he can't get the job done, quick hook. But I'm okay with giving him the opportunity behind a line that should be able to at least protect him decently and see if the results are better.
Jones can learn from seeing the game as a spectator before he's thrown into the fire. As physical a sport as this is - the mental side of it is so important. Preparation is so important.
Well said arc. I have always believed that it more beneficial for most QB's to sit at first. I don't think it can harm a QB's development in any way by having them sit and learn behind a veteran.
On the other hand I think throwing a QB out there week one could greatly affect their development. If the offensive line is struggling and a rookie takes a beating then it could make them gun shy. David Carr is a good example.
If a rookie QB struggles it might affect his confidence which could also harm their development.
I don't worry about either of these things with Daniel Jones. While I think he would be better off sitting for at least a quarter of the season I am confident that he can start week one and not embarrass himself.
I am 100% in agreement with you arc when it comes to when to start Jones. If the Giants are 1-3 or 2-4 and Eli is struggling I will be very annoyed if they stick with him and keep Jones on the bench until they are mathematically eliminated. This all assumes Eli stays healthy which isn't a given with a 39 year old despite how resilient he has been up to this point.
lot of young QBs got their heads permanently scrambled getting thrown to the wolves.
Eli gives them their best shot to win. You play him. Point of having a winning season this year is to win. If tanking a season makes little sense. Sitting a QB who gives you a better shot of winning this year makes even less sense.
Eli gives us a better chance at winning what?
Let's say we sneak into a wild card spot and lose. Not impossible.
And let's say Eli plays rather well. Then what? Do we bring Eli back and forfeit another year (especially contractually) to get Jones into action?
Unless you truly think we can vie for a SB spot, playing Eli is just wasting valuable football time for Jones.
he won't be back and will be playing elsewhere next season. Jones will get some playing time during blowouts or if Manning gets hurt (real or invented) and take over next year.
RE: I think it's nuts to say SB or punt the season Â
If we made the playoffs, I would consider 2019 to be an enormous success.
Do you really think the Giants have a shot at the playoffs? Come on now. We've won 8 games the last two years. Our QB has looked really bad. We lost our best WR. Our entire secondary is new. We have major question marks at pass rush.
RE: RE: I think it's nuts to say SB or punt the season Â
If we made the playoffs, I would consider 2019 to be an enormous success.
Do you really think the Giants have a shot at the playoffs? Come on now. We've won 8 games the last two years. Our QB has looked really bad. We lost our best WR. Our entire secondary is new. We have major question marks at pass rush.
I said "if" and it was a response to bw thinking that playoffs are nothing.
RE: RE: I think it's nuts to say SB or punt the season Â
If we made the playoffs, I would consider 2019 to be an enormous success.
Do you really think the Giants have a shot at the playoffs? Come on now. We've won 8 games the last two years. Our QB has looked really bad. We lost our best WR. Our entire secondary is new. We have major question marks at pass rush.
The secondary was horrible last season - I'd say having a new secondary is a major upgrade from last season.
RE: RE: I think it's nuts to say SB or punt the season Â
If we made the playoffs, I would consider 2019 to be an enormous success.
Do you really think the Giants have a shot at the playoffs? Come on now. We've won 8 games the last two years. Our QB has looked really bad. We lost our best WR. Our entire secondary is new. We have major question marks at pass rush.
And most importantly, we don’t know what we have in the head coach. Shurmur could be terrible, we just don’t know. Time will tell and this is a big year for him. Significant decisions on the horizon for this head coach.
If that was ever in the plans I think they would have just released Eli and let him find another team. DJ would have to really outplay Eli in a big way and even if that were to happen, I think ownership would still want Eli as the starter initially and do a switch during the season.
Eli will get the chance and if and or when the team falters DJ will get his chance. Ownership these days listens too hard to fans. That whole debacle with McAdoo pulling Eli for Smith was handled so poorly. The only way that Eli should have been pulled was for Webb and it appears that Webb was not ready anyway so it should have never happened especially for Smith. Now ownership seems to want to fix that mistake somehow.
The bottom line is that DJ needs reps this season so at some point Eli has to sit. When you invest the 6th overall pick on a QB the main advantage is to improve the roster during the early years where you can take advantage of the cap savings. Only the Giants dont have that this year with Eli on the roster so DJ must be the day 1 starter by next season or DJ starts to become a wasted draft pick in that there was so much talent in the draft and we are sitting a guy for 2 years. Even as a rookie QB we are tying up about $6-10 million a year so our QB spot is costing over $30 mil we may have the highest cost at QB in the league when we should have one of the lowest.
RE: Paul I think the guarantees and salary are already set in stone. Â
this thread it doesn't look like any/many BBIers posted responses on the tweet. Most BBI'ers whether they were for the pick or not have come to grips with it and at least trying to think positive. Those tweets sounded like draft day.
why it takes to the 11th hour to get these first round
picks signed, when the rookie deals are pretty much slotted these days. Now it is kinda funny to me at least,
not talking about just Jones, just in general.
@RVacchianoSNY
·
2h
QB Daniel Jones, the sixth overall pick, has agreed to terms on his rookie contract and will be at the Giants' rookies first practice tomorrow (per @RapSheet
). He's due to get a four-year, $25.6 million deal with a $16.7M signing bonus.
I think Daniel is a capable qb and should at least have a mediocre career - at least. At most, much more. If he goes bust I am most likely going to blame the organization for mishandling his development.
Excited stuff though. I'm looking forward to positive DJ news during camp. Especially his disproving reported draft prep weaknesses.
I do maintain a preference for him red-shirting this year, for multiple reasons. It just seems sitting at first (don't have time to flesh out all reasons this instance, but happy to later) leads to higher likelihood of a more successful career with the team that drafted them. For the fan, delayed gratification, if you will.
No. Bonus money is paid up front and for cap purposes it is prorated over the length of the contract, 5 years max. The payment may be subject to payment terms as in multiple payment dates in the first year, but it is not paid to the player each year of the contract like salary. http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001021617/printable/2019-nfl-free-agency-glossary-all-the-terms-you-need-to-know
What you suggest is more like guaranteed salary which is paid and is set against the cap in the year it is contracted to be paid, regardless if the player is on the team or not.
The delay with Jones may be due to the terms of payment of the signing bonus(in 6 or 18 months).
Another possinility is offset language in the contract which may allow the team to recoup guaranteed salary if a 1st round pick is cut before the 4th year. Link with explanation below.
Not saying this was the case with DJ, but it is possible. This was the reason Joey Bosa and others have held out or were late in signing.
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d82a72b56/article/whats-the-holdup-for-top-picks-getting-signed-offset-language
Didn't I say that before?
He's probably buying a neighborhood near FatMan, or a county in West Virginia, or a condo right next door to Eli in Jersey...
Time value of money... yes. But at 2-3% interest rates, not that big a sacrifice for Giants. When I was in B-school way back when, and money market interest rates were running between 10 - 14%, THAT was some serious time value of money!
The new guys from Cleveland were trades....they did convert some salary to bonus for the LG...but outside that...there were light on signing over checks.
Or it could be a shot of Jones signing his confession to a series of grisly murders.
I hope it's the first one.
The new guys from Cleveland were trades....they did convert some salary to bonus for the LG...but outside that...there were light on signing over checks.
Golden Tate was this biggest at $10 million, and only one we gave any real money too. Lot's of dead money on the books this season from prorated signing bonus for OBJ, Vernon etc, but looking like at least $40-$45 million of cap space for next season (Eli coming off books being biggest savings)
Does Daniel Jones honestly look like someone who is going to cry about money? What a dumb thing to say.
Quote:
But don't cry in year 4 that you are only making 2.5 million.......
Does Daniel Jones honestly look like someone who is going to cry about money? What a dumb thing to say.
This comment is for all players. Players do this all the time. "I am only make X millions this year... I'm way under paid....." They conveniently leave off the bonus they received a couple of years earlier that would reflect the real salary.
I don't see Jones complaining, but who knows about his agent.
If they cut Ellison, Kareem Martin & Jackrabbit that puts them at 80 million. Even if we say a 7 million dollar cap hit for Jones that puts them a tad over 73 million in cap space with 49 players under contract.
Ogletree is a potential cap casualty which would save another 8 million. They could restructure Solder's 17 million dollar hit. We are in very good shape for the future.
If you're the Chargers, why risk the bad taste with Bosa and his team, over rounding error type money?
Seems petty and weird. Really glad the Giants didn't do that.
If you're the Chargers, why risk the bad taste with Bosa and his team, over rounding error type money?
Seems petty and weird. Really glad the Giants didn't do that.
I don't think it's the team. I think it's more the douchebag Bosa family. Not really a coincidence that both Bosa Brothers look like they are set to miss time as rookies. Especially now when there are essentially no rookie holdouts.
Or it could be a shot of Jones signing his confession to a series of grisly murders.
I hope it's the first one.
I hope it is the second one, as in murdering defenses across the league. Let's go DJ!
Quote:
Or it could be a shot of Jones signing his confession to a series of grisly murders.
I hope it's the first one.
I hope it is the second one, as in murdering defenses across the league. Let's go DJ!
It rubs the lotion on its skin or it gets another pass to Engram.
+1
I get it. But that is flawed thinking unless this organization is foolish to think this could be a SB team this year.
Here is a winning year in my view - getting Jones as many reps as possible to get him experience. Which will allow us to more quickly determine if Jones was the right investment at #6.
Quote:
until the coach feels he represents a better chance to win than Eli does, especially when the team feels like they can start to win more in 2019.
I get it. But that is flawed thinking unless this organization is foolish to think this could be a SB team this year.
Here is a winning year in my view - getting Jones as many reps as possible to get him experience. Which will allow us to more quickly determine if Jones was the right investment at #6.
As a fan, I don't disagree. Unfortunately for fans, everyone that works for the Giants is working for their jobs, year to year. Winning is the only one to ensure their incomes.
Look at the flawed thinking McAdoo implemented in order to save his job, banking on Geno Smith. Or, Shurmur going to the rails to get OBJ traded.
To expect otherwise isn't rational from their perspective.
Quote:
until the coach feels he represents a better chance to win than Eli does, especially when the team feels like they can start to win more in 2019.
I get it. But that is flawed thinking unless this organization is foolish to think this could be a SB team this year.
Here is a winning year in my view - getting Jones as many reps as possible to get him experience. Which will allow us to more quickly determine if Jones was the right investment at #6.
In principle, I'm against throwing games for any reason. But, beyond that, I see no purpose in tanking a season for no reason.
I get it. But that is flawed thinking unless this organization is foolish to think this could be a SB team this year.
Here is a winning year in my view - getting Jones as many reps as possible to get him experience. Which will allow us to more quickly determine if Jones was the right investment at #6.
In principle, I'm against throwing games for any reason. But, beyond that, I see no purpose in tanking a season for no reason.
I wouldn't categorize it as "tanking" giving the #6 pick in the draft the immediate opportunity to help us determine - sooner rather than later - if Jones was the right decision. Getting that position right is too critical.
I struggle to find any downside in starting Jones right away.
As a fan, I don't disagree. Unfortunately for fans, everyone that works for the Giants is working for their jobs, year to year. Winning is the only one to ensure their incomes.
Look at the flawed thinking McAdoo implemented in order to save his job, banking on Geno Smith. Or, Shurmur going to the rails to get OBJ traded.
To expect otherwise isn't rational from their perspective.
If you have smart management and ownership, they should rational to understand the circumstances and adjust their expectations accordingly.
If Eli is gone after this year, which seems to be the conventional thinking, what's the point if we have a winning record or not this year?
Yep.
In addition, it's the coach, team, and system too that play a part.
Let's see how he looks in preseason.
EVERY QB we've had behind Eli has basically, IMO, looked lost in the preseason. A lot of that has to do with non-starters, etc. but you can just see when a QB has "it".
Let's see if Jones is different. That would be a start.
One of the knocks we've heard regarding Jones is how quickly he processes on the field. If you want that to improve, the answer isn't to just throw him onto an NFL field in regular season games where he'll need to do all of it even faster than he did in college - all that's going to do in all likelihood is make it more difficult for him.
The more a player understands on film and the firmer grasp they have on the offense as a whole, the faster they'll be able to play when the bullets are flying. There's really no time to think in an NFL pocket. You have to know exactly what everyone on your side of the ball is responsible for - you need to be able to read the defense and understand what they're throwing at you and what they're showing you. These are all areas where study can benefit a player.
If this was Kyler Murray - I'd probably say just play him right away.
But, in Jones' case, and having Eli still here, I think this is the most sensible plan of action.
Now, that being said - I will be annoyed if the team is struggling - particularly the offense through the first month and we find out that the Giants aren't willing to go to Jones until later in the year when we're just out of it and have basically nothing to play for
That's not where I want him to see his first action.
If we're something like 1-3 through the first quarter, I want to see Jones then and there. Not when we're "mathematically" out of it.
The only way Jones should stay on the sidelines beyond Halloween is if we're playing GOOD football with Eli and are winning games.
But, to start the year, I think giving the ball to Eli is a fine way to go about it for now. If he can't get the job done, quick hook. But I'm okay with giving him the opportunity behind a line that should be able to at least protect him decently and see if the results are better.
Jones can learn from seeing the game as a spectator before he's thrown into the fire. As physical a sport as this is - the mental side of it is so important. Preparation is so important.
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As a fan, I don't disagree. Unfortunately for fans, everyone that works for the Giants is working for their jobs, year to year. Winning is the only one to ensure their incomes.
Look at the flawed thinking McAdoo implemented in order to save his job, banking on Geno Smith. Or, Shurmur going to the rails to get OBJ traded.
To expect otherwise isn't rational from their perspective.
If you have smart management and ownership, they should rational to understand the circumstances and adjust their expectations accordingly.
If Eli is gone after this year, which seems to be the conventional thinking, what's the point if we have a winning record or not this year?
I suppose you can say that about any year.
Eli gives them their best shot to win. You play him. Point of having a winning season this year is to win. If tanking a season makes little sense. Sitting a QB who gives you a better shot of winning this year makes even less sense.
One of the knocks we've heard regarding Jones is how quickly he processes on the field.
If you want that to improve, the answer isn't to just throw him onto an NFL field in regular season games where he'll need to do all of it even faster than he did in college - all that's going to do in all likelihood is make it more difficult for him.
The more a player understands on film and the firmer grasp they have on the offense as a whole, the faster they'll be able to play when the bullets are flying.
There's really no time to think in an NFL pocket. You have to know exactly what everyone on your side of the ball is responsible for - you need to be able to read the defense and understand what they're throwing at you and what they're showing you. These are all areas where study can benefit a player.
If this was Kyler Murray - I'd probably say just play him right away.
But, in Jones' case, and having Eli still here, I think this is the most sensible plan of action.
Bingo!
All valid and sensible reasons for him to sit, initially. Give him the best possible chance to succeed.
One of the knocks we've heard regarding Jones is how quickly he processes on the field. If you want that to improve, the answer isn't to just throw him onto an NFL field in regular season games where he'll need to do all of it even faster than he did in college - all that's going to do in all likelihood is make it more difficult for him.
The more a player understands on film and the firmer grasp they have on the offense as a whole, the faster they'll be able to play when the bullets are flying. There's really no time to think in an NFL pocket. You have to know exactly what everyone on your side of the ball is responsible for - you need to be able to read the defense and understand what they're throwing at you and what they're showing you. These are all areas where study can benefit a player.
If this was Kyler Murray - I'd probably say just play him right away.
But, in Jones' case, and having Eli still here, I think this is the most sensible plan of action.
Now, that being said - I will be annoyed if the team is struggling - particularly the offense through the first month and we find out that the Giants aren't willing to go to Jones until later in the year when we're just out of it and have basically nothing to play for
That's not where I want him to see his first action.
If we're something like 1-3 through the first quarter, I want to see Jones then and there. Not when we're "mathematically" out of it.
The only way Jones should stay on the sidelines beyond Halloween is if we're playing GOOD football with Eli and are winning games.
But, to start the year, I think giving the ball to Eli is a fine way to go about it for now. If he can't get the job done, quick hook. But I'm okay with giving him the opportunity behind a line that should be able to at least protect him decently and see if the results are better.
Jones can learn from seeing the game as a spectator before he's thrown into the fire. As physical a sport as this is - the mental side of it is so important. Preparation is so important.
Well said arc. I have always believed that it more beneficial for most QB's to sit at first. I don't think it can harm a QB's development in any way by having them sit and learn behind a veteran.
On the other hand I think throwing a QB out there week one could greatly affect their development. If the offensive line is struggling and a rookie takes a beating then it could make them gun shy. David Carr is a good example.
If a rookie QB struggles it might affect his confidence which could also harm their development.
I don't worry about either of these things with Daniel Jones. While I think he would be better off sitting for at least a quarter of the season I am confident that he can start week one and not embarrass himself.
I am 100% in agreement with you arc when it comes to when to start Jones. If the Giants are 1-3 or 2-4 and Eli is struggling I will be very annoyed if they stick with him and keep Jones on the bench until they are mathematically eliminated. This all assumes Eli stays healthy which isn't a given with a 39 year old despite how resilient he has been up to this point.
Eli gives them their best shot to win. You play him. Point of having a winning season this year is to win. If tanking a season makes little sense. Sitting a QB who gives you a better shot of winning this year makes even less sense.
Eli gives us a better chance at winning what?
Let's say we sneak into a wild card spot and lose. Not impossible.
And let's say Eli plays rather well. Then what? Do we bring Eli back and forfeit another year (especially contractually) to get Jones into action?
Unless you truly think we can vie for a SB spot, playing Eli is just wasting valuable football time for Jones.
Do you really think the Giants have a shot at the playoffs? Come on now. We've won 8 games the last two years. Our QB has looked really bad. We lost our best WR. Our entire secondary is new. We have major question marks at pass rush.
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If we made the playoffs, I would consider 2019 to be an enormous success.
Do you really think the Giants have a shot at the playoffs? Come on now. We've won 8 games the last two years. Our QB has looked really bad. We lost our best WR. Our entire secondary is new. We have major question marks at pass rush.
I said "if" and it was a response to bw thinking that playoffs are nothing.
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If we made the playoffs, I would consider 2019 to be an enormous success.
Do you really think the Giants have a shot at the playoffs? Come on now. We've won 8 games the last two years. Our QB has looked really bad. We lost our best WR. Our entire secondary is new. We have major question marks at pass rush.
The secondary was horrible last season - I'd say having a new secondary is a major upgrade from last season.
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If we made the playoffs, I would consider 2019 to be an enormous success.
Do you really think the Giants have a shot at the playoffs? Come on now. We've won 8 games the last two years. Our QB has looked really bad. We lost our best WR. Our entire secondary is new. We have major question marks at pass rush.
And most importantly, we don’t know what we have in the head coach. Shurmur could be terrible, we just don’t know. Time will tell and this is a big year for him. Significant decisions on the horizon for this head coach.
Eli will get the chance and if and or when the team falters DJ will get his chance. Ownership these days listens too hard to fans. That whole debacle with McAdoo pulling Eli for Smith was handled so poorly. The only way that Eli should have been pulled was for Webb and it appears that Webb was not ready anyway so it should have never happened especially for Smith. Now ownership seems to want to fix that mistake somehow.
The bottom line is that DJ needs reps this season so at some point Eli has to sit. When you invest the 6th overall pick on a QB the main advantage is to improve the roster during the early years where you can take advantage of the cap savings. Only the Giants dont have that this year with Eli on the roster so DJ must be the day 1 starter by next season or DJ starts to become a wasted draft pick in that there was so much talent in the draft and we are sitting a guy for 2 years. Even as a rookie QB we are tying up about $6-10 million a year so our QB spot is costing over $30 mil we may have the highest cost at QB in the league when we should have one of the lowest.
"Good faith gesture"? You really have no idea how any of this works, do you?
If we make the playoffs with Jones it would indeed be an enormous success.
Making the playoffs with Eli further complicates the future. And the Eli Saga continues...
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If we made the playoffs, I would consider 2019 to be an enormous success.
If we make the playoffs with Jones it would indeed be an enormous success.
Making the playoffs with Eli further complicates the future. And the Eli Saga continues...
Making the playoffs, or coming close, just gives Eli more of a case for continuing somewhere else.
I am Eli Manning's biggest fan...but it's hard to give me a situation where he returns next year.
This will be D. Jones' team soon...........
picks signed, when the rookie deals are pretty much slotted these days. Now it is kinda funny to me at least,
not talking about just Jones, just in general.