Nothing really new here, and not sure I should even give this clicks but it's a slow news morning and figured the segment was worth a post.
I actually think Kellerman is better than most of the ESPN talking head trash-pile (not saying much), and I know he's a Giants fan. I think a lot of Giants fan share the sentiment even if they wouldn't put it so bluntly or state it so publicly. What say you BBI?
Kellerman: Eli Stinks - (
New Window )
What's the motivation here? What other athlete, current or past has segments saying they stink? It speaks more about the level of journalism than anything else.
We are out of the "shock jock" Era and in the Era of loudmouthed armchair guys. No accountability either. Skip Bayless can be wrong 99 times out of 100 and often is, yet as long as he gets clicks/views/ratings - it doesn't matter.
Assessing singular blame for a teams struggles just shows a true lack of IQ. The OL was shit. The defense was shit. We struggled in coaching and also with QB play.
When your a bad team - theres plenty of blame to spread around, just not on a QB. The Giants have had one of the least talented roster in the NFL for nearly a decade. Throw in the mental case at WR last year and that didnt help matters.
The disrespect being shown to BOTH of these men by so many people boggles my mind. Yes, Eli has played poorly at times but I'm in the camp that thinks he isn't done yet.
This is the year we find out for sure as I believe he has enough of a supporting cast now. Barring injury, if he can't play well with this cast then i'm wrong and he is in fact done.
Let it be known, Max told EVERYONE the day after the draft the Jones pick was an "epic failure."
I remember, do you guys? I'll hold him to that
But he's just one of many hacks who's going to be riding this hobby horse all season. God forbid they should have to think of anything original, or actually informative to write/say.
We all know this.
Give Eli time and he shines.
Let it be known, Max told EVERYONE the day after the draft the Jones pick was an "epic failure."
I remember, do you guys? I'll hold him to that
Um, why can't he have it both ways? You can believe that Eli is done and at the same time feel that Jones was a bad pick at 6 or not believe in Jones at all. These positions are not in conflict with one another at all.
Let it be known, Max told EVERYONE the day after the draft the Jones pick was an "epic failure."
I remember, do you guys? I'll hold him to that
Yes you can. You can fully recognize Eli is, likely, a bottom tiered QB while saying you have very low expectations for Daniel Jones. Max isnt the only person who is a fan of the team to feel this way.
Eli deserves a share of the blame, but nothing like he gets day in and day out.
We would be a 3 Time SB winner if not for Plax shooting himself in the leg.
This. Max is a boxing guy. Would you ask John Madden about boxing?
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In one sense, you say Eli now stinks. Yet, on the other hand, you also said we are nuts for taking Daniel Jones at #6.
Let it be known, Max told EVERYONE the day after the draft the Jones pick was an "epic failure."
I remember, do you guys? I'll hold him to that
Yes you can. You can fully recognize Eli is, likely, a bottom tiered QB while saying you have very low expectations for Daniel Jones. Max isnt the only person who is a fan of the team to feel this way.
I understand your point, but disagree in part. Certainly, if you view Eli as over the hill, there is evidence to support it; not arguing that fact. But Max is not a scout, was not at the combine, was not at Jones' pro day (which many experts claimed was near perfection), cannot read film, and probably never played a down of football in his life.
As a result, if you are going to take the "Eli is over the hill stance," AT LEAST give Jones a year or two to prove that he has the goods, or doesn't. I appreciate his boxing expertise. He is NOT a football guy. He's a talking head on ESPN.
I just don't see the point in crying that the Giants need to address QB. So they do with a premium pick, and he's going to cry about that too. It's like the person that complains about the NJ cold in the winter, and the NJ hot equally in the summer. He honestly has zero idea how Jones is going to be, so let's not peg the kid a bust day 1.
Let it be known, Max told EVERYONE the day after the draft the Jones pick was an "epic failure."
I remember, do you guys? I'll hold him to that
Sure you can. It actually makes perfect sense. Eli being finished is completely independent in thinking Jones was a poor choice at #6.
What's the motivation here? What other athlete, current or past has segments saying they stink? It speaks more about the level of journalism than anything else.
We are out of the "shock jock" Era and in the Era of loudmouthed armchair guys. No accountability either. Skip Bayless can be wrong 99 times out of 100 and often is, yet as long as he gets clicks/views/ratings - it doesn't matter.
It's not the reasons why Eli failed that cause me to feel like Eli is a bottom 3rd QB, it's the things he did that were unforced and the fact that all things being equal I still don't think he's a positive, he's at best IMO a neutral factor at this point.
He's not a good QB, and sure with a good OL, good running game, good receiving options, good defense and good coaching the Giants might succeed with Eli, but think of how many teams in the NFL actually have that? Very few. You're a good QB IMO when you can win without one or two of those and Eli just hasn't proven to be that.
I like Eli, I'm not a hater, but In a draft of all 32 expected starting QB's I think Eli is bottom 5 or 6 picked and he should be.
"2 time Super Bowl MVP" means absolutely zero for Eli Manning on the field in 2019.
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In one sense, you say Eli now stinks. Yet, on the other hand, you also said we are nuts for taking Daniel Jones at #6.
Let it be known, Max told EVERYONE the day after the draft the Jones pick was an "epic failure."
I remember, do you guys? I'll hold him to that
Sure you can. It actually makes perfect sense. Eli being finished is completely independent in thinking Jones was a poor choice at #6.
Nope, Eli being finished, or close to it, is in direct correlation for why we used a premium pick on QB this year. And to that, since Max really has ZERO evidence to suggest he knows more than multiple scouts that wanted Jones in the early to mid first round, how can he in good faith, with certainty claim "The Jones pick was awful." How? On what?
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I ask on these types of things is - "Why??"
What's the motivation here? What other athlete, current or past has segments saying they stink? It speaks more about the level of journalism than anything else.
We are out of the "shock jock" Era and in the Era of loudmouthed armchair guys. No accountability either. Skip Bayless can be wrong 99 times out of 100 and often is, yet as long as he gets clicks/views/ratings - it doesn't matter.
Why? Giant fans are suckers and soak this shit up. I saw this on ESPN, but I was not going to link it. Clicking on this nonsense does nothing but encourage them. Slow day on the sports scene, just make a negative comment about Eli, you will get plenty of clicks and get your editor off your back. FWIW it works here too, slow day on BBI, just start a negative thread about Eli and BOOM, instant views and countless replies. You and I are part of the problem, neither one of us can resist the urge to comment on any thread that has ELi in it. You can apply that same reasoning to all of our regulars... It is what it is.
You know - that's pretty dead on
I could not disagree more - respectfully of course - Eli used to have some of the best pocket fluidity in the game for years. He had enough of a rush evasion step or two to create that extra 0.5-1.5 seconds. He doesn't have that anymore - hopefully that's why he lost weight this year to get some of that back. But otherwise he's completely dead legged
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In comment 14504886 BillyM said:
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In one sense, you say Eli now stinks. Yet, on the other hand, you also said we are nuts for taking Daniel Jones at #6.
Let it be known, Max told EVERYONE the day after the draft the Jones pick was an "epic failure."
I remember, do you guys? I'll hold him to that
Sure you can. It actually makes perfect sense. Eli being finished is completely independent in thinking Jones was a poor choice at #6.
Nope, Eli being finished, or close to it, is in direct correlation for why we used a premium pick on QB this year. And to that, since Max really has ZERO evidence to suggest he knows more than multiple scouts that wanted Jones in the early to mid first round, how can he in good faith, with certainty claim "The Jones pick was awful." How? On what?
This is a bad take. Eli being finished and the Giants HAVING to take a QB and on top of that HAVING to take Jones at 6 are all not mutually exclusive.
You can believe that a) eli is finished as a QB that can lead you to a winning record
and b) Daniel Jones is not a quality QB prospect
or c) Daniel Jones does not have value at pick #6, but does represent value at a later pick.
or d) the Giants did need to take a QB but it should have been Haskins (for example).
all perfectly reasonable takes aka opinions.
Not saying I support any of them, but your rationale for rejecting Kellerman's opinion does not make sense.
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In comment 14504920 bw in dc said:
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In comment 14504886 BillyM said:
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In one sense, you say Eli now stinks. Yet, on the other hand, you also said we are nuts for taking Daniel Jones at #6.
Let it be known, Max told EVERYONE the day after the draft the Jones pick was an "epic failure."
I remember, do you guys? I'll hold him to that
Sure you can. It actually makes perfect sense. Eli being finished is completely independent in thinking Jones was a poor choice at #6.
Nope, Eli being finished, or close to it, is in direct correlation for why we used a premium pick on QB this year. And to that, since Max really has ZERO evidence to suggest he knows more than multiple scouts that wanted Jones in the early to mid first round, how can he in good faith, with certainty claim "The Jones pick was awful." How? On what?
This is a bad take. Eli being finished and the Giants HAVING to take a QB and on top of that HAVING to take Jones at 6 are all not mutually exclusive.
You can believe that a) eli is finished as a QB that can lead you to a winning record
and b) Daniel Jones is not a quality QB prospect
or c) Daniel Jones does not have value at pick #6, but does represent value at a later pick.
or d) the Giants did need to take a QB but it should have been Haskins (for example).
all perfectly reasonable takes aka opinions.
Not saying I support any of them, but your rationale for rejecting Kellerman's opinion does not make sense.
I agree with everything you are saying. But I refuse to agree that Max's take that Jones was the wrong pick at #6 was based on ANY tangible evidence that he did personal research on, scouting on, or had an inside scoop on. I don't believe it for a second. It was a knee jerk assessment based on what others were saying, the Mel Kiper's of the world.
Now, there IS evidence that Eli is declining, so I have no problem with that opinion. Go back and watch his highlights to Burress, posted a few weeks ago on BBI. He has nowhere close the arm he had back then.
I'm simply noting, that I am calling Max's bluff that he is SO CERTAIN Jones was not a good pick, and has bust written all over him. He's entitled to his opinion, and can certainly be right in both cases. But jeez, at least regarding Jones, come from a position of patience and expertise. Not sure he has either
Now that would be something!!!!
Kellerman was so good when he was strictly a local radio personality. His Giants takes were fresh and he didn't hold grudges or give guys breaks that came on his show.
No one has anything factual to say about Jones other than the Giants selected him at #6 overall. The rest as Joe Strummer says "is unwritten".
I hope Jones proves him and the other naysayers (like Ray Lucas - I wanted to punch him in the face) so wrong they do get called out for it.
Same with Eli, I'd love for Eli to prove his detractors (me included) wrong, but these are all opinions.
No one has anything factual to say about Jones other than the Giants selected him at #6 overall. The rest as Joe Strummer says "is unwritten".
I hope Jones proves him and the other naysayers (like Ray Lucas - I wanted to punch him in the face) so wrong they do get called out for it.
Same with Eli, I'd love for Eli to prove his detractors (me included) wrong, but these are all opinions.
Agreed.
Kerry Collins
YA Tittle
Kurt Warner
Phil Simms
One noticeable Giant omission.
I think the biggest difference b/w Brady and Eli is that short accuracy... That short accuracy has the benefit of quicker release times, higher completion %, and more YAC. Explains Brady's Net Yard/attempt (which factors sacks...)
PFR - ( New Window )
Kerry Collins
YA Tittle
Kurt Warner
Phil Simms
One noticeable Giant omission.
LOL. Collins instead of Eli? Fuck me.
This is the same guy who said Daniel Jones HAS to he a Hall of Famer to make up for being picked that high.
Eli deserves a share of the blame, but nothing like he gets day in and day out.
We would be a 3 Time SB winner if not for Plax shooting himself in the leg.
This is such a fantasy that Giants fans created. There is zero guarantee of that.
You should listen to it. He was highly effusive in his praise of Vintage Eli. Called the Manningham throw the greatest throw in SB history. This isn't a matter of hot takes. You can tell that he truly believes that you can no longer win with him.
You know who else agrees? Gettlemen in drafting Jones at 6.
For fun - here's the clip. Watch Eli's feet create the space necessary to step into the throw. Otherwise the guard would have been pushed into him and it would have been underthrown...
Eli / Mario SB - ( New Window )
I pretty much decided then and there that I'd be sure to ignore any of his future opinions going forward.
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Four "Giants" on the list
Kerry Collins
YA Tittle
Kurt Warner
Phil Simms
One noticeable Giant omission.
LOL. Collins instead of Eli? Fuck me.
Not only that, but Kurt Warner? WTF?
That said, from an efficiency standpoint, Eli actually had one of his better seasons in 2018. He completed a career-high 66 percent of his passes and threw only 11 interceptions.
He's clearly on the downside of his career. And to be frank, he would probably be better served being on another team that is "only" a QB short of being a contender.
But based on 2018, he doesn't "stink." He's still being vastly underrated, like has most of his career.
How the fuck can judge a player when his surrounding cast has been average or worse?
There was a whole thread dedicated to this where it actually shows the research. Of course it went unnoticed by many since narratives werent meant.
Kerry Collins
YA Tittle
Kurt Warner
Phil Simms
One noticeable Giant omission.
That said, from an efficiency standpoint, Eli actually had one of his better seasons in 2018. He completed a career-high 66 percent of his passes and threw only 11 interceptions.
He's clearly on the downside of his career. And to be frank, he would probably be better served being on another team that is "only" a QB short of being a contender.
But based on 2018, he doesn't "stink." He's still being vastly underrated, like has most of his career.
(1) the offensive line was far worse in the first half of the season.
(2) Saquon's touches went up in the second half of the season.
Coincidence?
Since are a lot of moving parts there could several reasons other than it being all Manning.
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In comment 14504968 Reale01 said:
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Four "Giants" on the list
Kerry Collins
YA Tittle
Kurt Warner
Phil Simms
One noticeable Giant omission.
LOL. Collins instead of Eli? Fuck me.
Not only that, but Kurt Warner? WTF?
Never mind, I thought those were supposed to be the 4 best NY Giant QB's of all time. Didn't see the part about top 40 QB's of all time. Warner was good, just not for the Giants.
What's the motivation here? What other athlete, current or past has segments saying they stink? It speaks more about the level of journalism than anything else.
We are out of the "shock jock" Era and in the Era of loudmouthed armchair guys. No accountability either. Skip Bayless can be wrong 99 times out of 100 and often is, yet as long as he gets clicks/views/ratings - it doesn't matter.
Amen, all that.
About Kellerman, maybe he just now said the word "stinks" to describe an all-timer, but he's been on this tirade, in one fashion or another, for literally years now. Smarmy, wanna punch him in the forehead tirade about Eli not measuring up.
I liked the guy ... but stopped paying attention to him a while ago.
...
But based on 2018, he doesn't "stink." He's still being vastly underrated, like has most of his career.
I guess it's how you define "efficiency". Stating the obvious not all completions are created equal. A dump off on 3rd and 8 that goes for 6 is not as valuable than a 3rd and 4 that goes for 6. If you look at Alex he's one of the worst.
ALEX represents Air Less EXpected on third downs, the average difference between the length of the quarterback's throw and the distance needed for a new set of downs. The number listed here only includes third downs and is not adjusted for passes thrown away or batted down.
and you can't blame it all on the OL bc there are QBs that also had putrid lines that ranked much much higher.
if you judge efficiency by stats that better answer the question "how efficiently does the QB increase the chances of scoring" he was near the league bottom last year...
FO QB - ( New Window )
ESPNception.
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One can make a legitimate argument that based on where this team is now in terms of its rebuild, that it does not make sense to go with Eli too much longer.
That said, from an efficiency standpoint, Eli actually had one of his better seasons in 2018. He completed a career-high 66 percent of his passes and threw only 11 interceptions.
He's clearly on the downside of his career. And to be frank, he would probably be better served being on another team that is "only" a QB short of being a contender.
But based on 2018, he doesn't "stink." He's still being vastly underrated, like has most of his career.
he was inconsistent. Pretty good second half of the season (except for the titans game) but generally atrocious the first half (minus the Texans game).
I wouldn't call his second half pretty good. Sure the colts game was like old eli and he bounced back good against Dallas after a poor start. But the other games he either did a good job managing the game or was inconsistent.
How the fuck can judge a player when his surrounding cast has been average or worse?
There was a whole thread dedicated to this where it actually shows the research. Of course it went unnoticed by many since narratives werent meant.
All that said, it doesn't change the fact that Eli is 38 and more immobile than ever.
So unless you have a time machine that can reverse time, this point is moot.
So my question is how much weight should we be putting on the ALEX score?
And Max Kellerman? Stick to boxing dood.
So my question is how much weight should we be putting on the ALEX score?
I think together the metrics tell the story. None of those had negative ALEX. Yet, those guys had amongst the highest accuracy and percentage numbers - 74.6%, 67.7%, 70.1%, respectively. Translates to higher YAC and Net Yard per Attempt...
My take, FWIW
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The giants have been one of the least talented franchises in the last 15 years in the NFL.
How the fuck can judge a player when his surrounding cast has been average or worse?
There was a whole thread dedicated to this where it actually shows the research. Of course it went unnoticed by many since narratives werent meant.
All that said, it doesn't change the fact that Eli is 38 and more immobile than ever.
So unless you have a time machine that can reverse time, this point is moot.
I wouldnt call Brady, Brees, Rivers, Ben, etc mobile z
This narrative is that they move better in the pocket with their feet is a great laugh for me. How do you know if one can move within the pocket.... WHEN THERE IS NO POCKET!!!!
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ALEX is an interesting metric. I noticed some of the QB's with the top overall QBR scores also had low ALEX scores. Brees, Luck, Wentz just to name a few.
So my question is how much weight should we be putting on the ALEX score?
I think together the metrics tell the story. None of those had negative ALEX. Yet, those guys had amongst the highest accuracy and percentage numbers - 74.6%, 67.7%, 70.1%, respectively. Translates to higher YAC and Net Yard per Attempt...
My take, FWIW
Interesting. Appreciate the response man.
I wouldnt call Brady, Brees, Rivers, Ben, etc mobile z
This narrative is that they move better in the pocket with their feet is a great laugh for me. How do you know if one can move within the pocket.... WHEN THERE IS NO POCKET!!!!
Roeth is very nimble. One of the game's great improvisers.
Hard to argue with Brees' ability to process information and deliver the ball accurately at an ungodly rate. And he has that cocksucker Payton, who I can't stand but he's an offensive wizard. Same with Brady. They are great craftsman at playing winning football with limited physical ability.
River is an anachronism. He looks and plays like a guy from the '70s and '80s. I almost feel like he should be smoking cigarettes just to underscore what a throwback he is. His ability to make plays is uncanny.
Again, I'm not known around here as a super strong Eli backer or detractor. I'm in the middle.
But he did not have a "bad" year last year. My biggest nitpick with him for the last few years is I think he's become gun-shy. But once again, he got clobbered behind that offensive line. And there were a number of games where the offense did its job and the defense blew it again.
Let this OL is even a little bit Above average even diminished he will have a pretty good year IMO.
Did anyone say they stunk??
But today, that passes for acceptable behavior.
Again, I'm not known around here as a super strong Eli backer or detractor. I'm in the middle.
But he did not have a "bad" year last year. My biggest nitpick with him for the last few years is I think he's become gun-shy. But once again, he got clobbered behind that offensive line. And there were a number of games where the offense did its job and the defense blew it again.
I'll say this for my source of optimism:
1) This offense will be year 2 in the system. Hopefully Eli can trust that he will be on the same page as his receivers, and start throwing to spots rather than waiting for the player to break.
2) The OL should give him some more time / Barkley more space. He has always been great at play action, and now defenses should respect the run more. Hopefully they can pass more out of these 12 sets (a topic that has been popularized in the analytics community)
3) He's dropped some weight so hopefully he gets some of that pocket fluidity back [so he's less "gun shy"]
But frankly, defenses didn't respect Eli last year. They dared him to beat them deep and he for the most part couldn't. Defenses gave him the underneath recognizing that his short accuracy doesn't set his receivers up for big YAC and they could stop them. Eli needs to make defenses pay on the deep and intermediate.
I hear what you are saying. And the offense was very hit or miss last year. But again, if you look at the actual numbers, Eli had one of his best seasons in terms of yards and efficiency. If you listen to the pundits, they would have you believe he was a clusterfuck out there.
If you remember Matt SGSs post... Eli played in some of the worst weather games last year as well.
Nobody takes into these factors which is pretty poor IMao.
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Four "Giants" on the list
Kerry Collins
YA Tittle
Kurt Warner
Phil Simms
One noticeable Giant omission.
that list had Dave Krieg Randall Cunningham and vinny testaverde on the list. Maybe the author is a client of Jeff hatch.
Anybody who thinks that Dave Krieg, Randall Cunningham, Vinny Testavarde (wtflol?!!!!?!) and Kerry Collins were better than Eli has lost the plot.
I hear what you are saying. And the offense was very hit or miss last year. But again, if you look at the actual numbers, Eli had one of his best seasons in terms of yards and efficiency. If you listen to the pundits, they would have you believe he was a clusterfuck out there.
QB numbers are up all across the league, so it doesn't make sense to compare it to ten years ago to prove he's still got it. Hell, Ryan Fitzpatrick puts up video game numbers at times.
If you remember Matt SGSs post... Eli played in some of the worst weather games last year as well.
Nobody takes into these factors which is pretty poor IMao.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you anit-stats
But IMO, you can't objectively look at his game last year and come to the conclusion that he was a bad QB.
I'll stand by what I've said for a couple of years now, the Giants robbed Eli of the second-half of his career. And now with the team getting better, his career is coming to an end. They really botched this.
- he has lost some weight
- the weather should be better vs 2018
- our receiving core last year was bad
Did I miss any other nuggets like "his dog ate the gameplan"?
Nonetheless, that's absolutely not my intent here. I was just offering another perspective based on some of the newer statistics used in that analytics crowd. Hypothetically, if Eli were to see improvement in some of those stats, yet those traditional stats like Total Yards and Comp% decreased, we might still have a more productive offense.
Eli looked like he was laboring at times last year. What is unfortunate is that Eli's narrative would have been much different if the Giants could have assembled just a solid OL after 2011.
Take a look at some of the other top QB's during the Eli era. Did they have such porous line for so long? The teams who have won in our won division recently have what in common? Dallas got good again because Garrett knows what made those early 90's teams so good.
I hope Eli and the Giants have a great year. I am pulling for him and at least to start this season I feel like this will be the most solidly built line Eli has had since the tail end of 2011. If they can run the ball and provide solid protection and Eli is holding them back then give Jones the keys. I am not betting against him though.
I was more talking about the yardage aspect. But even so the amount of QBs that have a passer rating over 90 is higher than its been.
They arent fucking excuses. They are facts.
But IMO, you can't objectively look at his game last year and come to the conclusion that he was a bad QB.
I'll stand by what I've said for a couple of years now, the Giants robbed Eli of the second-half of his career. And now with the team getting better, his career is coming to an end. They really botched this.
Your last paragraph kinda bothers me. The org robbed the fans of a competitive team. Eli got paid hansomly during that period. It's the NY Giants, not the NY Eli Mannings.
The two go hand-in-hand.
No one feels bad for Eli's bank account. But I think most people also realize that Eli is a competitor and not the type of guy who is just comfortable collecting paychecks and going home. If that were the case, he'd have stopped taking all these beatings a few years ago.
He wants to win and he's a competitor. Think about all of the frustration and things he probably kept to himself for years because he's too much of a professional to makes waves and create stories.
When Eli walks away from football, he'll have been paid handsomely, he'll be a Super Bowl champion and SB MVP... twice. He'll regret none of that.
But both he and many Giant fans will certainly wonder "what could have been..." if the front office hadn't so badly botched managing this football team for what is going on about 7-8 years now.
It's great that we got what we did with Eli here. A lot of us can't help but feel like it could have been even better.
Draft after draft was a disaster for the Giants for the bulk of this past decade.
They also spent tens of millions of dollars on free agents who simply didn't pan out.
In a nutshell, the Giants - as an organization - have not been able to field a profession offensive line and linebacking corps for a decade. Except for last year, the same thing with special teams.
The defense has been near dead last outside of 2016. The running game a joke until Barkley.
I don't know many QBs who can function without even a semi-competent OL.
It just feels like the org and a lot of the fans are more concerned with Elis legacy over putting a competive product on the field. Yes as you stated, both things go hand in hand but its hard to argue that you you had a QB with the same skill set and cap hit on the roster without Eli's history he would be a cap casualty by now.
Draft after draft was a disaster for the Giants for the bulk of this past decade.
They also spent tens of millions of dollars on free agents who simply didn't pan out.
In a nutshell, the Giants - as an organization - have not been able to field a profession offensive line and linebacking corps for a decade. Except for last year, the same thing with special teams.
The defense has been near dead last outside of 2016. The running game a joke until Barkley.
I don't know many QBs who can function without even a semi-competent OL.
No objection to anything you wrote.
But the org let the fans down. They didn't let Eli down. Eli is a paid member of the team he is on the roster for the fans, not the other way around.
I think it's just difficult to be completely objective on Eli. It's hard to be a Giants fan and not find yourself caring a bit about his legacy and how he goes out and how this all ends.
I've certainly criticized them for valuing sentimentality over objectivity - but at the same time, it's a slippery slope. It's a Giants legend and ushering a guy like this out at the end of his career is often dicey and doesn't go the way we want it to.
It's frustrating as a fan because Eli was still playing at a very high level through 2015.
McAdoo was a really bad hire for him. I just think that offense and all the different footwork and stuff he tried to change this late in Eli's career was a big mistake. It turned 2016 and 2017 into tough years for him - even though we won 11 games in 2016. It was mostly on the heels of the defense. Eli didn't play particularly well that year, and he was in an impossible situation in 2017.
I think he was okay last year. Not great. Also not bad.
It is what it is at this point... I just think this has to be the end of the road barring some sort of crazy revenge tour that no one really sees coming. But, my guess is Daniel Jones is under center by mid-season.
I'm just going to try and enjoy what are likely to be Eli's final games here - and probably his final games in general.
I don't think it's really going to hit a lot of people until he's really gone. The best thing I think we can all do as fans at this point is simply root for him and support him until it's time to make the switch. When the time comes, the time comes.
I wish the brass had done a better job while he still had the ability to be a Championship caliber QB - but I can't change the past. What's done is done.
Hopefully Eli will be able to ride off into the sunset on the heels of something better than what we've mostly seen the last few years.
No one gets the ball out quicker tha Brady
And Eli hasn't taken that many devastating hits. He knows how to protect himself.
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with the same defense and they would be inscribing his tombstone. Eli only survived because he is tough as a boot.
No one gets the ball out quicker tha Brady
And Eli hasn't taken that many devastating hits. He knows how to protect himself.
Actually Eli has been one of the fastest in getting rid of the ball the last few years.
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Last year, I wonder how many would still say he stink.
If you remember Matt SGSs post... Eli played in some of the worst weather games last year as well.
Nobody takes into these factors which is pretty poor IMao.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you anit-stats
I am. Just showing what a thin line between what one person thinks is terrible to a pro bowl type season.
But that 2011 team rapidly decomposed around Eli. I always felt Eli, Cruz, and Hakeem carried that team until the defense and running game started to show some life late in the regular-season (Jets game). Folks forget that we were at or near dead last in rushing and defense in 2011.
The line was already fraying, especially at tackle, in 2011. And Reese and Ross were NEVER able to fix it. Year after year.
They arent fucking excuses. They are facts.
No, these are irrelevant comparisons and they are isolated incidents. Stop worrying about defending your position and look at it objectively.
The second you mention weather is akin to saying what excuse can i hide behind to make a point. This isnt a head to head comparison of who gets into the HOF between Eli and another guy who played 50% of his games in a dome. This is about should we expect a better outcome in 2019...
Lord...
It has no barring in this season but it does if youre looking back on last year.
Please continue this debate as I will stay up late to respond to your nonsense, excuse me... posts.
That doesnt mean he stinks, but is also doesnt mean he would have been brilliant with better talent, we don t know.
It s the NFL, you are what your record says you are both as a team and an individual, all the rest is conjecture.
That said, if Eli plays winning football this season, leads the offense to an upper tier level, then the argument about him being handicapped by inferior talent surrounding him is validated to some extent.
As a fan, it is possible to believe Eli is done, and hope he proves you wrong.
That doesnt mean he stinks, but is also doesnt mean he would have been brilliant with better talent, we don t know.
It s the NFL, you are what your record says you are both as a team and an individual, all the rest is conjecture.
That said, if Eli plays winning football this season, leads the offense to an upper tier level, then the argument about him being handicapped by inferior talent surrounding him is validated to some extent.
As a fan, it is possible to believe Eli is done, and hope he proves you wrong.
Good post. I am aligned to these themes versus concerned about weather factors...
But that 2011 team rapidly decomposed around Eli. I always felt Eli, Cruz, and Hakeem carried that team until the defense and running game started to show some life late in the regular-season (Jets game). Folks forget that we were at or near dead last in rushing and defense in 2011.
The line was already fraying, especially at tackle, in 2011. And Reese and Ross were NEVER able to fix it. Year after year.
I wonder if Reese ever thinks to himself how in the hell he never fired Ross. I think Reese just got too comfortable, thinking that because he won 2 sbs and has been with the organization for so long that Mara would never fire him and Ross was his friend. Weird how he would push Coughlin to fire some of his trusted assistants.
clicks and views...
These sports networks are no better than the news channels
I get the sense from reading some comments above - the poor Eli syndrome - that Eli is getting mixed up with Archie.
You feel Eli's best days are behind him? Say so. But have some class and acknowledge the man's contributions in a sincere manner. He deserves it.
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I ask on these types of things is - "Why??"
What's the motivation here? What other athlete, current or past has segments saying they stink? It speaks more about the level of journalism than anything else.
We are out of the "shock jock" Era and in the Era of loudmouthed armchair guys. No accountability either. Skip Bayless can be wrong 99 times out of 100 and often is, yet as long as he gets clicks/views/ratings - it doesn't matter.
Why? Giant fans are suckers and soak this shit up. I saw this on ESPN, but I was not going to link it. Clicking on this nonsense does nothing but encourage them. Slow day on the sports scene, just make a negative comment about Eli, you will get plenty of clicks and get your editor off your back. FWIW it works here too, slow day on BBI, just start a negative thread about Eli and BOOM, instant views and countless replies. You and I are part of the problem, neither one of us can resist the urge to comment on any thread that has ELi in it. You can apply that same reasoning to all of our regulars... It is what it is.
If you remember Matt SGSs post... Eli played in some of the worst weather games last year as well.
Nobody takes into these factors which is pretty poor IMao.
That's a great point. And if he won the Super Bowl, I guarantee no one would still say he stinks.
But he didn't.
He's the QB of a team that has won 8 games in 2 years. A lot of guys stunk along the way to that record, and most of them are gone now. We'll see if those that remain were part of the reason for that failure or simply dragged down by the mediocrity surrounding them, but it's impossible to state without question that any of the players who contributed to that record could not possibly have been responsible for it in any way.
It sucks that the weather was only bad for Eli though, and not the QB on the opposing team. Maybe that turns around this season!
One has been doing it for 15 years. Pathetic.
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In comment 14505105 dep026 said:
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Last year, I wonder how many would still say he stink.
If you remember Matt SGSs post... Eli played in some of the worst weather games last year as well.
Nobody takes into these factors which is pretty poor IMao.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you anit-stats
I am. Just showing what a thin line between what one person thinks is terrible to a pro bowl type season.
5-6 TDs isn't really a thin line. If Eli threw 5-6 fewer TDs, he'd have landed between Fitzpatrick and Bortles. Are they just a thin line away from Eli? Because that's basically what you're saying.
One has been doing it for 15 years. Pathetic.
Yeah, I'm the one who's clueless. Maybe there's a "thin line" between you and me when it comes to intelligence.
JFC, you are the fucking worst fan Ive ever seen. 15 years and counting.
Just absolutely amazing you claim you know more football than anyone. Youre clueless.
He didn't stink, but if the metrics are part of the equation, he wasn't very good.
He had some good games, some average games, and some bad ones.
To be a winner in the NFL, your quarterback needs to have a majority of good performances and Manning just didn't.
And just so we're all on the same page, the point is for the Giants to win games to entertain the fans, not to "not let down" Eli Manning, right?
You're the dipshit who claimed 5-6 TDs was some sort of thin line. Look up the fucking stats. If you subtract 5-6 TDs from what Eli did last year, that's where he'd have finished.
I'm not the one who created the fictional hypothetical. I just pointed out how fucking stupid your example was.
JFC, you are the fucking worst fan Ive ever seen. 15 years and counting.
So now you're just adding the 5 TDs on as though they actually happened? Can we just add 5 fictional wins on instead, or would you prefer to only boost the results for Eli?
Is it really that challenging for you to understand the concept of subtracting the same amount that you're suggesting adding to show that it's not the insignificant variance that you're positing?
Nevermind, it almost certainly IS that challenging for you, as evidenced by this post.
JFC, you are the fucking worst fan Ive ever seen. 15 years and counting.
I think what he's saying is 5-6 fewer TDs would have put Eli at 15 (or 16) TDs last year, which is Bortles territory. He's basically dismissing your method of just adding hypothetical production to somehow discount the significance of stats.
I get the sense from reading some comments above - the poor Eli syndrome - that Eli is getting mixed up with Archie.
Geezus. It's not poor fucking Eli. What Eric said isn't just about Eli and a stupid legacy. Enough with that crap already.
The fact of the matter is we have a franchise QB. We won 2 SBs with him. If you can't see that after 2011 Reese/Ross wasted a few more capable runs? There's really nothing else to discuss. It is poor fans. But we had the QB in place. The two dumbasses mainly responsible for our awful drafting over more than a decade screwed us by wasting the best years of our franchise QB. That's a fact.
And I'll say it again. I hope Eli shoves a GIANT shit covered football down everyone's throat this year.
I'll ask again - what other player has been described as "stinks" by talking heads?
The Giants had an 8 year streak without a losing season. That's exceptional.
The 2012 Giants had a great chance to set up a playoff appearance after starting 6-2, but then fizzled. Including a shut out loss to the Falcons (where Manning completely blew it) late in the year.
The Giants had a 3 year stretch from 2013-2015 where they were a bad team. That's true. But by 2016 the Giants had a fantastic defense, and a playoff appearance.
All told as a full-time starter the Giants have had 9 above .500 seasons and 5 below.
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Is Blake bortles?
JFC, you are the fucking worst fan Ive ever seen. 15 years and counting.
I think what he's saying is 5-6 fewer TDs would have put Eli at 15 (or 16) TDs last year, which is Bortles territory. He's basically dismissing your method of just adding hypothetical production to somehow discount the significance of stats.
So adding 5 TDs makes him a pro bowl QB, subtracting 5 makes him Bortles.
Thank you for proving my thin line argument. One more TD every three games would have made him a very good QB. One less every three games makes him a scrub. Pretty much the definition of thin line.
He cant figure that out cause hes pretty clueless.
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In comment 14505334 dep026 said:
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Is Blake bortles?
JFC, you are the fucking worst fan Ive ever seen. 15 years and counting.
I think what he's saying is 5-6 fewer TDs would have put Eli at 15 (or 16) TDs last year, which is Bortles territory. He's basically dismissing your method of just adding hypothetical production to somehow discount the significance of stats.
So adding 5 TDs makes him a pro bowl QB, subtracting 5 makes him Bortles.
Thank you for proving my thin line argument. One more TD every three games would have made him a very good QB. One less every three games makes him a scrub. Pretty much the definition of thin line.
He cant figure that out cause hes pretty clueless.
That's the exact opposite of a thin line. If the deviation in one direction is a Pro Bowl QB and the other direction is a bench-worthy bum, that's a pretty fucking wide line.
5-6 TDs is not some insignificant variance. I'd expect even someone as innumerate as you to understand that, but I suppose not.
But I'm the clueless one? It's been exhausting to point out your stupidity for a decade and a half.
Carry on. Looking forward to your next shitty post when I say something positive about Eli.
Bat signal came out in full force today!! 15 years and counting.
15 years on shitting people who say positive things about Eli. Great fan.
15 years on shitting people who say positive things about Eli. Great fan.
Don't confuse shitting on your idiocy with shitting on positivity about Eli.
The frequency is not as relevant as the % variance. +25-30% is a huge fucking delta - this isn't really that complicated.
If one of those happened once every 3 games... theres your 5. Youre right - it isnt fucking complicated. Unless you use a fucking a calculator to make an opinion rather than using your own fucking eyes to watch a game.
You think its that hard? Let me show you a play by play box score from 2011.
Ballard tackles at the 1
Nicks barely pushed out after 60 yard gain inside 5
Manningham TD overturned to down at the 1
And thats doesnt include two other PIs that could have been TDs.
If you dont think throwing 1 more TD every three games is realistic.... than your even dumber than I fucking thought.
Bills at Giants - ( New Window )
We love your objectivity when it comes to Eli. Turn off the bat signal buddy, and go to bed.
Geezus. It's not poor fucking Eli. What Eric said isn't just about Eli and a stupid legacy. Enough with that crap already.
The fact of the matter is we have a franchise QB. We won 2 SBs with him. If you can't see that after 2011 Reese/Ross wasted a few more capable runs? There's really nothing else to discuss. It is poor fans. But we had the QB in place. The two dumbasses mainly responsible for our awful drafting over more than a decade screwed us by wasting the best years of our franchise QB. That's a fact.
Wasted more capable runs? Hmmmmm.
Eli wanted to come here. Archie, Condon, Peyton and Eli manipulated Eli's way into this job. And he's had tremendous success. Nine winning seasons out of fourteen. Six playoff appearances.
Imagine being the great Dan Fouts and Warren Moon and never sniffing a SB. Or the brilliant Aaron Rodgers and only getting to one SB. Or the great Dan Marino. A man ahead of his time who played the majority of his career without a running game or reliable defense. And he only got to one SB, and lost to the great Joe Montana.
Sorry, but this pity party for Eli is embarrassing. He's had more than enough opportunities and he's made enough money to last twenty lifetimes.
If one of those happened once every 3 games... theres your 5. Youre right - it isnt fucking complicated. Unless you use a fucking a calculator to make an opinion rather than using your own fucking eyes to watch a game.
You think its that hard? Let me show you a play by play box score from 2011.
Ballard tackles at the 1
Nicks barely pushed out after 60 yard gain inside 5
Manningham TD overturned to down at the 1
And thats doesnt include two other PIs that could have been TDs.
If you dont think throwing 1 more TD every three games is realistic.... than your even dumber than I fucking thought.
Bills at Giants - ( New Window )
The counter to this is what about the great plays that have been made. Lattimer's one-handed catch, Saquon's ridciulous plays. It goes both ways
But IMO, you can't objectively look at his game last year and come to the conclusion that he was a bad QB.
I'll stand by what I've said for a couple of years now, the Giants robbed Eli of the second-half of his career. And now with the team getting better, his career is coming to an end. They really botched this.
Ill look at the Falcons game which I was unfortunately at as a microcosm of Elis 2018 season. Did little to nothing most of the game and accumulated 100 yards and a meaningless junk time td when the Falcons had the game in the bag. Youre really reaching if youre trying to say Eli was good in 2018
"Let's bump my salary up 25%, shall we?"
"WHAT?!? That's ridiculous. You didn't even come into the office at all last week and I'm pretty sure you played video games all day yesterday, and you want a 30k raise?"
"Well really, it's just a 7500 more every 4 months."
We love your objectivity when it comes to Eli. Turn off the bat signal buddy, and go to bed.
Keep putting "quotes" around random words and exposing yourself as a fool whose understanding of math would make a toddler cringe. I can't even imagine you trying to calculate the tip at a restaurant and here I am wasting time trying to explain to you how +/- 25-30% is well beyond the reaches of some insignificant statistical aberration while you act like it's some sort of rounding error.
Enjoy your ignorance.
We love your objectivity when it comes to Eli. Turn off the bat signal buddy, and go to bed.
When did Eli take a pay cut?
Do you mean Restructure?
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And again, I'm not saying Eli "had a great year." Hell, I am not even saying he had a "good" year. He's the head of the offense and the offense didn't get the job done.
But IMO, you can't objectively look at his game last year and come to the conclusion that he was a bad QB.
I'll stand by what I've said for a couple of years now, the Giants robbed Eli of the second-half of his career. And now with the team getting better, his career is coming to an end. They really botched this.
Ill look at the Falcons game which I was unfortunately at as a microcosm of Elis 2018 season. Did little to nothing most of the game and accumulated 100 yards and a meaningless junk time td when the Falcons had the game in the bag. Youre really reaching if youre trying to say Eli was good in 2018
There's no doubt the Giants have had roster, talent, management, and coaching issues over the last 7 years.
They've had 5/7 losing seasons and 1 playoff appearance. Manning has also been part of the problem in a few of those years too, he's not been a completely innocent victim.
I think most objective fans would agree the Giants have been largely bad the last 7 years and Eli Manning has been inconsistent the last 7 years.
We all know this.
Give Eli time and he shines.
Isn't that the case for all qb's?
Anyway, whether it's Eli, Jones..the rest of this teams needs an upgrade and better play. It's not only the qb's
I'll ask again - what other player has been described as "stinks" by talking heads?
Brett Favre Absolutely Sucks - ( New Window )
Again read this very slow you imbeciles. One more TD every THREE games. ONE. Jesus Christ. For two people who claim to be so smart, I dont think they once picked up a football in their life.
"Let's bump my salary up 25%, shall we?"
"WHAT?!? That's ridiculous. You didn't even come into the office at all last week and I'm pretty sure you played video games all day yesterday, and you want a 30k raise?"
"Well really, it's just a 7500 more every 4 months."
One of the dumbest fucking comparisons Ive ever seen. Not surprising coming from you. Its not funny, its not realistic, nor does it even compare to what I brought up.
Par from the course from you. Another one of our great fans on this site.
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at the point we've gotten to. Supposed Giant fans are actually taking Kellerman's side here. Giving credence to a fucking moron who doesn't get held accountable.
I'll ask again - what other player has been described as "stinks" by talking heads?
Brett Favre Absolutely Sucks - ( New Window )
It's not even isolated to just that one...
Cris Carter: Adrian Peterson stinks, just like I did with the Dolphins
How about a twofer?
Mark Teixiera Stinks But Not As Bad As Albert Pujols
In case you think it's just American sports...
FC Barcelona: Lionel Messi World's Most Overrated Footballer
I think we all understand that Kellerman's job is to be sensationalist. Throwing around words like "stinks" drive clicks and pageviews - it's the nature of the world we live in and it extends far beyond sports.
That said, I think you can simultaneously understand that Kellerman is one of many blowhard talking heads all trying to stand out amid the din of the rest of them while also recognizing that there might be some underlying validity to what he's saying (even if you acknowledge that the manner in which he tries to make his point is over the top and exceedingly douche-y).
I don't think Eli stinks (no matter how much dep tries to paint me with that brush), but I think there's a decline there that exists with Eli, independent of the supporting cast that has been so bad that Eli hasn't even had a fair chance to age gracefully the past few years. Every flaw in his game has been exposed. Every weakness is on full display. And everything that has gotten a little bit worse due to age has been there for all to see, and it has looked even worse than it probably really is.
Most teams at least try to cover for their star QB's weaknesses, especially as age begins to set in. Under Reese, it often seemed like the Giants did the exact opposite, building a roster that could not have been more ill-suited to an aging gunslinger with limited mobility in the pocket.
And now we're left with a QB who probably should have had at least a few more really productive years that were instead wasted with a piss poor roster, and a fanbase that includes many fans who want so badly to claw back those missing years that they refuse to acknowledge that the clock kept ticking even while the Giants were wasting the tail end of Eli's prime.
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And again, I'm not saying Eli "had a great year." Hell, I am not even saying he had a "good" year. He's the head of the offense and the offense didn't get the job done.
But IMO, you can't objectively look at his game last year and come to the conclusion that he was a bad QB.
I'll stand by what I've said for a couple of years now, the Giants robbed Eli of the second-half of his career. And now with the team getting better, his career is coming to an end. They really botched this.
Ill look at the Falcons game which I was unfortunately at as a microcosm of Elis 2018 season. Did little to nothing most of the game and accumulated 100 yards and a meaningless junk time td when the Falcons had the game in the bag. Youre really reaching if youre trying to say Eli was good in 2018
What other games did Eli pad his stats. Ill give you Atlanta and the first Dallas game. What others?
Again read this very slow you imbeciles. One more TD every THREE games. ONE. Jesus Christ. For two people who claim to be so smart, I dont think they once picked up a football in their life.
25-30% matters because it is the context for the additional 5-6 TDs.
Maybe this will help illustrate it for you. How about 5 more TDs for Mahomes? Considering he threw for 50 (3.13 per game), adding an additional .31 per game is at least arguable but even then, +10% is extremely high.
Eli threw for 21 TDs last year. That's 1.31 per game. That's less than 4 every 3 games. If you can't see how adding one more every three games is statistically insane when someone has only thrown for 4 during that span, I don't know how else to explain it to you.
If scoring 5-6 additional touchdowns was as easy to do as you are trying to make it seem, Eli would almost certainly have done it. But +25-30% is not a throwaway number. It's an enormous jump which made your entire argument baseless. It's not a realistic scenario. It's poorly written fan fiction.
And yet I'm one of the imbeciles, right? You couldn't count your fucking fingers without an abacus. Carry on with your ignorance.
You can keep saying it, but that doesn't make it true. Kind of like arguing that your +5-6 TDs is a realistic scenario.
You're really too fucking dumb to even debate with.
When your deal with such small numbers ( like fucking 5), percentages dont hold the context as it would with other numbers like some moronic example someone tried to explain earlier.
Again... imbecile. Slow this down. Maybe have someone read it to you. One more TD every THREE games.
Think back to the first JAX game. Hitting OBJ before the half. No PI on Barry Church which would have let OBJ wide open for a TD. Maybe a throw from 3rd and goal instead of a reverse to OBJ....
You see, these are actual game plays. Dont need no fancy puter or my fingas or toesies to count.
15 years and counting. Bat signal getting stronger by the second.
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Well your posting for 15 years would suggest elsewise.
You can keep saying it, but that doesn't make it true. Kind of like arguing that your +5-6 TDs is a realistic scenario.
You're really too fucking dumb to even debate with.
Like I said, you should Never call anyone else dumb. Well maybe Santa. By the way whos Carrey and whos Daniels?? Tough to distinguish.
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In comment 14505121 Eric from BBI said:
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And again, I'm not saying Eli "had a great year." Hell, I am not even saying he had a "good" year. He's the head of the offense and the offense didn't get the job done.
But IMO, you can't objectively look at his game last year and come to the conclusion that he was a bad QB.
I'll stand by what I've said for a couple of years now, the Giants robbed Eli of the second-half of his career. And now with the team getting better, his career is coming to an end. They really botched this.
Ill look at the Falcons game which I was unfortunately at as a microcosm of Elis 2018 season. Did little to nothing most of the game and accumulated 100 yards and a meaningless junk time td when the Falcons had the game in the bag. Youre really reaching if youre trying to say Eli was good in 2018
What other games did Eli pad his stats. Ill give you Atlanta and the first Dallas game. What others?
First Redskin game.
Went down 20 to 6 with three minutes to go.
Eli engineer to drive that gave him 90 passing yards and a touchdown it took over 2 1/2 minutes off the clock
When your deal with such small numbers ( like fucking 5), percentages dont hold the context as it would with other numbers like some moronic example someone tried to explain earlier.
Again... imbecile. Slow this down. Maybe have someone read it to you. One more TD every THREE games.
Think back to the first JAX game. Hitting OBJ before the half. No PI on Barry Church which would have let OBJ wide open for a TD. Maybe a throw from 3rd and goal instead of a reverse to OBJ....
You see, these are actual game plays. Dont need no fancy puter or my fingas or toesies to count.
15 years and counting. Bat signal getting stronger by the second.
Again... innumerate weirdo. Slow this down. Maybe have someone read it to you. Adding ONE more TD every THREE games when someone has thrown LESS THAN FOUR every THREE games is batshit insane. That's not realistic.
It's ok, though. You just don't understand math - that explains why you hate statistics so much. But you didn't have to keep embarrassing yourself in the process.
Enjoy your version of reality. It's pointless to keep trying to explain this to you.
One more TD every three games in unrealistic? You can really tell who played the game and those who watch it with a calculator in front of them. Hahahahaha
He rarely says anything memorable or factual.
You painted yourself into the corner and then got mad at your own brush.
You're not even making sense now.
This was your silly hypothetical, and it was simply "if Eli threw for 5-6 more TDs" with no mention of yardage.
The point I was making in response to that was that if you were to subtract 5-6 TDs from Eli's 21 passing TDs last year, he would have finished with 15-16 passing TDs. That would have put him in between Bortles (13) and Fitzpatrick (17). It was not a referendum on Eli. I was not suggesting that Eli belongs in their company. I was pointing out that 5-6 TDs is a big swing. It's the difference between a legitimate NFL starting QB and a pair of journeyman scrubs.
And because it's a big enough difference to separate Eli from those bums, it's also too big of an amount to just casually add to Eli's total as a what-if.
That was the entire point I was trying to make. 5-6 TDs is a much bigger swing than you seem to think, because if it was as insignificant as you claim, then someone like Fitzpatrick wouldn't be within 5 TDs of Eli in the first place. I hope that explanation helps.
Bortles only played 12 games
Fitz only played 8
And if Eli threw for that less TDs... similar yards, and similar INT rate.... then yes he would be scrubs like them. Happy now? For Christ sakes.
And going by your weird theory... if Eli threw for 5-6 more TDs... hes in the likes of Aaron Rodgers, Baker, Deshaun Watson... you know pro bowl type QBs. Which basically proves my point.
Just stop. Please. Turn the bat signal off for a week. Go outside. Enjoy life. You gave a good run for 15 years. Take a break.
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I guess the whole over 1500 yards in your two comparison gets lost in translation too. Must not have figured in your puter....
Bortles only played 12 games
Fitz only played 8
Because they sucked? Kind of the point.
And if Eli threw for that less TDs... similar yards, and similar INT rate.... then yes he would be scrubs like them. Happy now? For Christ sakes.
And going by your weird theory... if Eli threw for 5-6 more TDs... hes in the likes of Aaron Rodgers, Baker, Deshaun Watson... you know pro bowl type QBs. Which basically proves my point.
Just stop. Please. Turn the bat signal off for a week. Go outside. Enjoy life. You gave a good run for 15 years. Take a break.
I disregarded it because it wasn't part of your hypothetical. There was no pick and choose; I simply responded to your scenario, which was only about adding 5-6 TDs.
Pay attention: I do not think Eli is a scrub like Fitzpatrick or Bortles. I think adding 5-6 TDs to anyone's season total is a dumb argument and I was trying to prove it by pointing out that 5-6 TDs is what separates Eli from those scrubs. In other words, it's a pretty fucking large difference.
Unfortunately, this topic landed squarely on the intersection of your tendency to get defensive about Eli and your inability to process math. Kind of a perfect storm, I guess.
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In comment 14505749 dep026 said:
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I guess the whole over 1500 yards in your two comparison gets lost in translation too. Must not have figured in your puter....
Bortles only played 12 games
Fitz only played 8
Because they sucked? Kind of the point.
You are getting every one of your arguments blown apart but just refuse to get the point.
You are better off with sticking to calling people shitty fans and not wading into any numerical based arguments because you just don't have the capacity to grasp even the basic concepts.
I give up
Not one person here blew up my argument. Not you, not Santa, not Gatorade.
Holy shit. And I will continue to use fans to describe you guys because I seriously doubt you guys watch the games.
Actually several people did. It was a shitty argument and you continued to double down on it.
You just don't do well with numbers. No one is questioning your football acumen and certainly not your loyalty to Eli or to the Giants. But holy shit are you bad at math.
Think how realistic/unrealistic that is by using actual game plays from the season. Go rewatch the games. Go look at thebplay logs.
If you dont think its plausible, then I dont know what to tell you.
This quote by christian really encapsulates the situation in a nutshell
I don't get the Media's repeated jabs at Manning. I don't get our own fans being seemingly gleeful to crap on him in nearly every thread about the guy, but what is said above really should diffuse these arguments, because if you don't truly believe that - then there is some delusion going on.
Think how realistic/unrealistic that is by using actual game plays from the season. Go rewatch the games. Go look at thebplay logs.
If you dont think its plausible, then I dont know what to tell you.
Fine, you want to do it by the play logs and not by actual math, how about this - by my count, Eli had 7 TD passes of 3 yds or less last season. What if even three of those had been Barkley rushes instead of Eli passes? That's not even a stretch considering SB is quite likely the best RB in the NFL. You could probably make the case for all 7 of those TDs just as easily being Barkley runs instead of Eli passes, but I'll stick with less than half for the sake of illustrating this.
You really can't just cherry pick examples where TDs were left on the field because you can just as easily look at TDs that were partly the result of playcalling as much as anything else. There are too many variables.
So the most basic thing to look at is the macro argument, and that's where I stand by my point that adding 5-6 passing TDs is simply unrealistic.
My point is actually really simple. Think about the 16 games last year.... were there 5 Passing TDs that were left on the table that we should have? S if they were completed... Elis year is viewed MUCH differently.
And theres plenty of blame to go around. A lot were on Eli. Some on being downed inside the 5. Some prevented on penalty. Some on the WRs.
The thought that 5 is some huge number and impossible to get is my issue.
My point is actually really simple. Think about the 16 games last year.... were there 5 Passing TDs that were left on the table that we should have? S if they were completed... Elis year is viewed MUCH differently.
And theres plenty of blame to go around. A lot were on Eli. Some on being downed inside the 5. Some prevented on penalty. Some on the WRs.
The thought that 5 is some huge number and impossible to get is my issue.
Why can't you add 5-6 TDs to every QB in the league or is Eli the only guy the phenomenon applies to?
If you add 5-6 TDs to every QB then he gets looked at the exact same way.
But, headlining with "Eli stinks" is classless, indicative of a lack of professionalism and talent. An adult shold know better.
You think 26 will look that great in comparison to that?
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Next time I ask for a raise:
"Let's bump my salary up 25%, shall we?"
"WHAT?!? That's ridiculous. You didn't even come into the office at all last week and I'm pretty sure you played video games all day yesterday, and you want a 30k raise?"
"Well really, it's just a 7500 more every 4 months."
One of the dumbest fucking comparisons Ive ever seen. Not surprising coming from you. Its not funny, its not realistic, nor does it even compare to what I brought up.
Par from the course from you. Another one of our great fans on this site.
Are you honestly calling me a bad fan because I made fun of you...
Oh yes, of course you are. It's you!
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I guess the whole over 1500 yards in your two comparison gets lost in translation too. Must not have figured in your puter....
Bortles only played 12 games
Fitz only played 8
I bet it rained in some of them too, so they absolutely must be stricken from the record.
1500 yard difference? That's only 300 yards every 3 games of the season. If you look at it that way, the gap isn't meaningful.
Just a clueless poster. AlwAys has been, always will be.
And the rain argument is absolutely hysterical.
Bortles sucked in the rain
Mariotta threw for 89 yards
Daniel had 5 turnovers.
But I am sure it didnt affect their play, right?
Yeah, that's about the crux of it. It all stemmed from a post that was basically, "Our fans are the worst, can't they see that if Eli threw 5-6 more TDs, people would think he was great instead of thinking he was terrible?"
I guess if he didnt miss out that many TDs, or its absurd to think he could have had more.... maybe he didnt play bad whatsoever and maximized all of his opportunities!! 🤔
If Eli threw for 4300 yards 26 TDS and 11 INTs... (like other pro bowlers did last year) would the narrative of he stinks change.
Keep going to the extremes Santa. My laughter of BBI bat signal responders grows louder every day.
If you remember Matt SGSs post... Eli played in some of the worst weather games last year as well.
Nobody takes into these factors which is pretty poor IMao.
My original post. But leave it to Santa to take it to a place of things I never said. Good work!!!
Its the decade long argument that Eli had had it so much harder than every other QB. His OCs all suck, his WRs all run the wrong routes and drop the ball. He never has a clean pocket.
It's tiresome and frankly it's patronizing towards Eli.
Eli would never make those excuses, why don't you follow his example.
The ironic thing is the number of perceived negative Eli posts would diminish greatly if Dep stopped posting. People are even arguing against Eli here, they are argouing against your shitty logic.
Its the decade long argument that Eli had had it so much harder than every other QB. His OCs all suck, his WRs all run the wrong routes and drop the ball. He never has a clean pocket
You havent been here a decade and know all this 🤔🤔🤔
By the way, checkout mbavaros showing that Elis supporting cast (offense, defense, and special teams) have been below average or near the bottom of the league for the entire part of his career.
I know you guys will dismiss it, but hey - its what you guys do.
In case you forget, there was a security breach that made everyone re register
In case you forget, there was a security breach that made everyone re register
It wasnt in 2015if memory serves me correct.
Heres the link for those who didnt see.
Surrounding talent - ( New Window )
I just posted it. Its from 2002-2018. Giants QB play was top 5 in the NFL. Check it out by position. Look at the defense and special teams. Putrid.
Just stop. Please. Turn the bat signal off for a week. Go outside. Enjoy life.
May want to take your own advice here dep.
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But it was a long time ago
In case you forget, there was a security breach that made everyone re register
It wasnt in 2015if memory serves me correct.
You are wrong, I retegistered after the breach.
I used to post under blue baller or some equally stupid name.
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Just stop. Please. Turn the bat signal off for a week. Go outside. Enjoy life.
May want to take your own advice here dep.
No thanks.
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Last year, I wonder how many would still say he stink.
If you remember Matt SGSs post... Eli played in some of the worst weather games last year as well.
Nobody takes into these factors which is pretty poor IMao.
My original post. But leave it to Santa to take it to a place of things I never said. Good work!!!
So in this particular post you didn't lament our shitty fans, but you did say it's pretty poor that no Eli detractor is factoring in how 5-6 more TDs would reflect differently... and I'm taking this to a place you never said?
To me, we should have had a lot more passing TDs last year. And like I said due to Eli missing guys, getting tackled inside the 5, dropped TDs, poor play calling, etc... Eli EASILY could have had the stat line I brought up.
I know thats absurd because it probably paints a light that Elis season isnt nearly as bad people thought. I know... absurd.
To me, we should have had a lot more passing TDs last year. And like I said due to Eli missing guys, getting tackled inside the 5, dropped TDs, poor play calling, etc... Eli EASILY could have had the stat line I brought up.
I know thats absurd because it probably paints a light that Elis season isnt nearly as bad people thought. I know... absurd.
It easily goes both ways though. What about plays when receivers made great plays to score. A dump off to Barkley where he jukes the world and leaps into the end zone. The fact remains he just had 21 tds
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I was showing how a statistical line can alter peoples views... not just our shitty fans on BBI, but also people across the nation(take a loo at what the OP brought up... thanks).
To me, we should have had a lot more passing TDs last year. And like I said due to Eli missing guys, getting tackled inside the 5, dropped TDs, poor play calling, etc... Eli EASILY could have had the stat line I brought up.
I know thats absurd because it probably paints a light that Elis season isnt nearly as bad people thought. I know... absurd.
It easily goes both ways though. What about plays when receivers made great plays to score. A dump off to Barkley where he jukes the world and leaps into the end zone. The fact remains he just had 21 tds
And my point was he should have had more and saying he could have had 5 more is very reasonable if not probable.
Many BBIers, fans and media pundits say Eli sucked last year with 21/11 and 4300 yards....
If he had thrown for 26/11 and 4300 yards like Brady, Rodgers, Watson, Mayfield - would be still stink?
Does Matt Stanford stink? Dalton? They had nearly identical stats as Eli. Nary a word on them. Guess its just an oversight and they arent the reason why their teams have stunk too.
It easily goes both ways though. What about plays when receivers made great plays to score. A dump off to Barkley where he jukes the world and leaps into the end zone. The fact remains he just had 21 tds
Well, obviously you don't understand how this works. While your point is completely valid and reasonable in a normal world, it doesn't play with the Eli-Never-Gets-A-Break Crowd.
Barkley making that play is merely what Barkley owes Eli. Eli gave Barkley the opportunity to score. And when the other supporting cast doesn't act in kind, well, they have failed to show Eli in his best light.
Therefore, we have to go back through the year and adjust all of those plays where Eli didn't get the best outcome. It's called EAQBR - Eli Adjusted Quarterback Rating. And it's clear - above - who those adjusters are...
bw in dc : 7/11/2019 6:13 pm : link : reply
and that stadium is a real pain in the ass to get to.
I think this DC sport fan is losing interest and gravitating more to the Caps and the Nats. Two significantly better run organizations...
What's that???
Many BBIers, fans and media pundits say Eli sucked last year with 21/11 and 4300 yards....
If he had thrown for 26/11 and 4300 yards like Brady, Rodgers, Watson, Mayfield - would be still stink?
Does Matt Stanford stink? Dalton? They had nearly identical stats as Eli. Nary a word on them. Guess its just an oversight and they arent the reason why their teams have stunk too.
dalton only played 11 games and no one is singing his praises
As for matt stafford
https://www.facebook.com/pages/category/Sports-Team/Matthew-Stafford-Sucks-128823890511121/
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/columnists/bob-wojnowski/2018/11/22/wojo-matthew-stafford-tosses-away-whats-left-detroit-lions-season/2086317002/
http://www.talk-sports.net/nfl/sucks.aspx/Matthew_Stafford
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Poor product...
bw in dc : 7/11/2019 6:13 pm : link : reply
and that stadium is a real pain in the ass to get to.
I think this DC sport fan is losing interest and gravitating more to the Caps and the Nats. Two significantly better run organizations...
What's that???
Should be "the" instead of "this"...
And no offense, Im not going to a Facebook page for a source of information haha
I think hes a DC sports fan when the Giants are winning cause you sure as shit didnt see him here when we were winning. Only when we are losing ...🤔🤔🤔
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In comment 14506276 dep026 said:
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I was showing how a statistical line can alter peoples views... not just our shitty fans on BBI, but also people across the nation(take a loo at what the OP brought up... thanks).
To me, we should have had a lot more passing TDs last year. And like I said due to Eli missing guys, getting tackled inside the 5, dropped TDs, poor play calling, etc... Eli EASILY could have had the stat line I brought up.
I know thats absurd because it probably paints a light that Elis season isnt nearly as bad people thought. I know... absurd.
It easily goes both ways though. What about plays when receivers made great plays to score. A dump off to Barkley where he jukes the world and leaps into the end zone. The fact remains he just had 21 tds
And my point was he should have had more and saying he could have had 5 more is very reasonable if not probable.
If OBJ had that extra gear we would have been close.
Plus less of the constant basic stunts getting to Eli in 1.5 secs.
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Poor product...
bw in dc : 7/11/2019 6:13 pm : link : reply
and that stadium is a real pain in the ass to get to.
I think this DC sport fan is losing interest and gravitating more to the Caps and the Nats. Two significantly better run organizations...
What's that???
Should be "the" instead of "this"...
I'm pretty sure it was Freudian.
And no offense, Im not going to a Facebook page for a source of information haha
I though the point is Eli is being treated unfairly in the media and no one else is?
There are hot takes all around the league. Eli isn't alone.
Should be "the" instead of "this"...
I'm pretty sure it was Freudian.
That mistake is going to be costly... ;)
It is a head scratcher.
This quote by christian really encapsulates the situation in a nutshell
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I think most objective fans would agree the Giants have been largely bad the last 7 years and Eli Manning has been inconsistent the last 7 years
I don't get the Media's repeated jabs at Manning. I don't get our own fans being seemingly gleeful to crap on him in nearly every thread about the guy, but what is said above really should diffuse these arguments, because if you don't truly believe that - then there is some delusion going on.
For sure agreed. NOW I am rooting especially BIG time for Eli to kill it this year so we can resurrect this thread just so Dep can make everybody ganging up on him here eat a shit sandwich... lol
Oh yeah And I hope Daniel Jones kicks ass in 2020
Well, I didn't mention names, but since you replied first (and ever so quickly)... guilty! lol
The shit sandwich will be the same Giant football covered with shit I have mentioned in this thread that Eli shoves down all Naysayers throats this year... lol. And man do I hope he does it.
And I will feel really stupid now if he doesn't lol
Also, the almanac is predicting slightly lower than average rainfall around northern New Jersey for this upcoming fall.
Pro Bowl here he comes...
Its not even to the point where we are discussing if hes done or still has it. It hasnt gotten to the point where you cant say anything positive about him without the bat signal going up and the band coming into play.
Also, the almanac is predicting slightly lower than average rainfall around northern New Jersey for this upcoming fall.
Pro Bowl here he comes...
The man knows more than Hall of gamers.
Can you show how the other QBs did during the rain? I already did but Im sure you ignored it cause it would make you look stupid again.
And I will feel really stupid now if he doesn't lol
Not necessarily! The precedent is being established.
Apparently, all you'll have to do if Eli plays average and puts up average statistics is say, "Well, would you still be saying he's average if his stats were 25% better, you shitty fan?"
Just would like to get my knife and fork ready (only a creetin eats a shit sandwich with his hands)
You guys need to understand there is a difference between disagreeing a posters shitty take on something and insulting the player he is defending.
Supporting Eli isn't a get out of jail free card for being a shity poster.
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hopefully Eli doesn't eat too many this summer so he can play better in 2019 at this new lower weight.
Also, the almanac is predicting slightly lower than average rainfall around northern New Jersey for this upcoming fall.
Pro Bowl here he comes...
The man knows more than Hall of gamers.
Can you show how the other QBs did during the rain? I already did but Im sure you ignored it cause it would make you look stupid again.
Who were the QBs again? Chase Daniels, Marcus Marriota and ???
That's quite a formidable group.
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And I will feel really stupid now if he doesn't lol
Not necessarily! The precedent is being established.
Apparently, all you'll have to do if Eli plays average and puts up average statistics is say, "Well, would you still be saying he's average if his stats were 25% better, you shitty fan?"
Or continue to say stupid shit all the time and have no idea what youre talking about and he could be like you!
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In comment 14506471 Jimmy Googs said:
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hopefully Eli doesn't eat too many this summer so he can play better in 2019 at this new lower weight.
Also, the almanac is predicting slightly lower than average rainfall around northern New Jersey for this upcoming fall.
Pro Bowl here he comes...
The man knows more than Hall of gamers.
Can you show how the other QBs did during the rain? I already did but Im sure you ignored it cause it would make you look stupid again.
Who were the QBs again? Chase Daniels, Marcus Marriota and ???
That's quite a formidable group.
So youre saying they didnt play well and their stats were affected by the rain. Thanks for proving my point.
You ask when you shit on eli- well here example number 1,237,456
You are honestly delusional.
Delusion is your forte.
Unless you are actually Eli Manning that is
He doesn't deserve that
I learned that throwing the football in a downpour is the same as throwing it in normal weather... people who never played the sport on BBI told me so...
You arguments basically boil down to making up the opposing side and calling people dupe troll "great fan"
You arguments basically boil down to making up the opposing side and calling people dupe troll "great fan"
Actually yes... people did say this during the thread. An objective fan like yourself would have seen that I thought?
I'm starting to think your reading comprehension skills are on par with your math skills.
But johnny5 is right about one thing, this is getting to the point where it's ganging up on one poster so I'll back off.
Lol, what a great week on BBI. Havent laughed this much at posters in years.
I said that too.
I am just showing based on stats which everyone uses that Elis 5 less TDs makes him stink while others are pro bowlers. Check Watson, mayfield, Brady, etc... 5 TDs was basically the difference.
Right, like when its too sunny our and the sunshine is blinding.
Hopefully we only have cloudy but non-rainy days at Metlife this year...
Where I'm still lost is why detractors should apparently discount the fact that this didn't in fact happen.
See youre right. The line between pro bowler and being a shit QB is 5 TDs, right?
Where I'm still lost is why detractors should apparently discount the fact that this didn't in fact happen.
How the hell is he supposed to throw 6 more touchdowns when it basically rains every time he plays?
Along those lines, I'd also be way less worried about our receiver depth if Sterling Shepard put up 82 catches for 1100 yards and 5 TDs.
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The numbers are what they are.
I said that too.
I am just showing based on stats which everyone uses that Elis 5 less TDs makes him stink while others are pro bowlers. Check Watson, mayfield, Brady, etc... 5 TDs was basically the difference.
That is absolutely correct - that's basically the difference. Though I'm sure most, if not all, of those QBs probably left some TDs on the field too, but it's really irrelevant. Eli did what he did. He threw 21 TDs last year.
What I think (or hope) we can all agree on is that it would be great for Eli to find those 5-6 additional TDs this season. That should translate into more wins, a more enjoyable season, and whatever happens between Eli and the Giants after this year, at least one more great season in blue to cement his legacy.
It's tiresome to keep arguing about last season and what could have been. And while I know you like to paint me as some sort of Eli hater, I'll be rooting just like Johnny5 to see Eli succeed this year.
And for your math skills to improve, but we can work on that in February.
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No one said that
You arguments basically boil down to making up the opposing side and calling people dupe troll "great fan"
Actually yes... people did say this during the thread. An objective fan like yourself would have seen that I thought?
No, nobody said anything of the like. You brought up playing in bad weather games during 2018 was some sort of critical factor that must be accounted for in assessing Eli because it was basically an anomaly.
We are all telling you we know QBs play in the rain and other bad elements from time to time, and that isn't skewing anybody's ability to assess them over a season, several seasons or a career...
But I guess you know more than him too...
Ummm many posts are regarding his play from last year. And some have said if you look at his actual play, he didnt really stink like the media and posters are portraying
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so what's your problem?
Ummm many posts are regarding his play from last year. And some have said if you look at his actual play, he didnt really stink like the media and posters are portraying
I think almost everybody on this thread said he didn't stink like Kellerman said.
Isn't that good enough for you...
Im trying to catch up to you!
Its actually sad how much you follow me though.
Better that than the skid marks left on your underwear when you decide to post.
And this seems to be fairly prevalent where ever you go on this site.
Last year for instance 2/3 of the league gave up within 7 points per game.
The difference between good and bad in the NFL is so much closer in the NFL.
5-6 TDs makes or breaks a season. It's a huge difference for a QB.
Last year for instance 2/3 of the league gave up within 7 points per game.
The difference between good and bad in the NFL is so much closer in the NFL.
5-6 TDs makes or breaks a season. It's a huge difference for a QB.
Well, this should be encouraging, then....
1st 8 games last year under a new coaching staff with completely new offense and completely turned over offensive line:
18.75 points per game.
Offensive line began to gel with removal of Flowers and addition of Jamon Brown, and in the last 8 games:
27.38 points per game.
One would expect that with familiarity in the second year of a new offense and a continually improving offensive line, that it's not unreasonable to expect that trend to continue.
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Football is an incredibly statistically consistent, statistically close game. In the last 20 years, including an offensive boom, teams scored on average between 20.8 and 23.3 points a game.
Last year for instance 2/3 of the league gave up within 7 points per game.
The difference between good and bad in the NFL is so much closer in the NFL.
5-6 TDs makes or breaks a season. It's a huge difference for a QB.
Well, this should be encouraging, then....
1st 8 games last year under a new coaching staff with completely new offense and completely turned over offensive line:
18.75 points per game.
Offensive line began to gel with removal of Flowers and addition of Jamon Brown, and in the last 8 games:
27.38 points per game.
One would expect that with familiarity in the second year of a new offense and a continually improving offensive line, that it's not unreasonable to expect that trend to continue.
Knock it off Britt. This is absolutely not the place for coherence and logic.
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Football is an incredibly statistically consistent, statistically close game. In the last 20 years, including an offensive boom, teams scored on average between 20.8 and 23.3 points a game.
Last year for instance 2/3 of the league gave up within 7 points per game.
The difference between good and bad in the NFL is so much closer in the NFL.
5-6 TDs makes or breaks a season. It's a huge difference for a QB.
Well, this should be encouraging, then....
1st 8 games last year under a new coaching staff with completely new offense and completely turned over offensive line:
18.75 points per game.
Offensive line began to gel with removal of Flowers and addition of Jamon Brown, and in the last 8 games:
27.38 points per game.
One would expect that with familiarity in the second year of a new offense and a continually improving offensive line, that it's not unreasonable to expect that trend to continue.
Absolutely. The Giants improved dramatically after the bye week.
One stat I've posted several times, which is amazing to me; the Giants averaged 50 more yards a game rushing in the second half of the season.
I haven't dug into the passing stats, but I suspect there was a corresponding improvement there too.
It was a tale of two teams for the Giants last year. A horrible team, and an average team.
This isn't a popular take, but I actually don't think Zeitler is the exponential improvement over Brown some think he'll be. I wanted to knock Brown, but in retrospect his play corresponded with major improvements in the team. I don't attribute all of it to him, but some must.
I think with potentially 3 new starters, and Solder and Remmers coming off surgeries, there is a risk the offensive line takes a step back from the really representative performance from games 9-16 last year. I expect it to be a process.
But to the original point of 5-6 TDs -- that's a big delta in performance. You can easily find 5-6 almost interceptions, 5-6 great catches where targets bailed Manning out of bad throws etc.
The line between good and bad, wins and losses is to thin. You are truly who your record says you are when it comes down to it.
To me the difference from being a good QB and one who stinks isnt 5 more TDs. That was the point that got lost in translation.
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In comment 14506853 christian said:
Quote:
Football is an incredibly statistically consistent, statistically close game. In the last 20 years, including an offensive boom, teams scored on average between 20.8 and 23.3 points a game.
Last year for instance 2/3 of the league gave up within 7 points per game.
The difference between good and bad in the NFL is so much closer in the NFL.
5-6 TDs makes or breaks a season. It's a huge difference for a QB.
Well, this should be encouraging, then....
1st 8 games last year under a new coaching staff with completely new offense and completely turned over offensive line:
18.75 points per game.
Offensive line began to gel with removal of Flowers and addition of Jamon Brown, and in the last 8 games:
27.38 points per game.
One would expect that with familiarity in the second year of a new offense and a continually improving offensive line, that it's not unreasonable to expect that trend to continue.
Absolutely. The Giants improved dramatically after the bye week.
One stat I've posted several times, which is amazing to me; the Giants averaged 50 more yards a game rushing in the second half of the season.
I haven't dug into the passing stats, but I suspect there was a corresponding improvement there too.
It was a tale of two teams for the Giants last year. A horrible team, and an average team.
This isn't a popular take, but I actually don't think Zeitler is the exponential improvement over Brown some think he'll be. I wanted to knock Brown, but in retrospect his play corresponded with major improvements in the team. I don't attribute all of it to him, but some must.
I think with potentially 3 new starters, and Solder and Remmers coming off surgeries, there is a risk the offensive line takes a step back from the really representative performance from games 9-16 last year. I expect it to be a process.
But to the original point of 5-6 TDs -- that's a big delta in performance. You can easily find 5-6 almost interceptions, 5-6 great catches where targets bailed Manning out of bad throws etc.
The line between good and bad, wins and losses is to thin. You are truly who your record says you are when it comes down to it.
It was a dramatic improvement for sure:
1st 8 games:
Manning Sacked 31 times
623 rushing yards averaging 4.2 per carry
77.9 rushing yards per game avg.
last 8 games:
Manning Sacked 16 times
1027 rushing yards averaging 5.0 per carry
128.4 rushing yards per game avg.
To your 5-6 TD/Int point....
Manning over the last 8 games:
66% comp - 1922 yards - 13 TD - 5 Int - 99.86 QB Rating
5 more TD's than the first 8 games, 3 less INT's. 15 less sacks.
Wins and losses 1st 8 games: 1-7. Last 8 games 4-4.