Kellerman: Thanks for Everything, but Eli Stinks Now

The giants have been one of the least talented franchises in the last 15 years in the NFL.

How the fuck can judge a player when his surrounding cast has been average or worse?

There was a whole thread dedicated to this where it actually shows the research. Of course it went unnoticed by many since narratives weren’t meant.

In comment 14504968 Reale01 said:

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Four "Giants" on the list Kerry Collins YA Tittle Kurt Warner Phil Simms One noticeable Giant omission.

that list had Dave Krieg Randall Cunningham and vinny testaverde on the list. Maybe the author is a client of Jeff hatch.

In comment 14504986 Eric from BBI said:

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One can make a legitimate argument that based on where this team is now in terms of its rebuild, that it does not make sense to go with Eli too much longer. That said, from an efficiency standpoint, Eli actually had one of his better seasons in 2018. He completed a career-high 66 percent of his passes and threw only 11 interceptions. He's clearly on the downside of his career. And to be frank, he would probably be better served being on another team that is "only" a QB short of being a contender. But based on 2018, he doesn't "stink." He's still being vastly underrated, like has most of his career.

he was inconsistent. Pretty good second half of the season (except for the titans game) but generally atrocious the first half (minus the Texans game).

Yup, but it's also interesting to note:

(1) the offensive line was far worse in the first half of the season.

(2) Saquon's touches went up in the second half of the season.

Coincidence?

Was he "generally atrocious"

Since are a lot of moving parts there could several reasons other than it being all Manning.

Surround him with HoF talent and looks good, otherwise looks like Sir-Collapse-A-Lot.

In comment 14504984 Snacks said:

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In comment 14504970 FatMan in Charlotte said: Quote: In comment 14504968 Reale01 said: Quote: Four "Giants" on the list Kerry Collins YA Tittle Kurt Warner Phil Simms One noticeable Giant omission. LOL. Collins instead of Eli? Fuck me. Not only that, but Kurt Warner? WTF?

Never mind, I thought those were supposed to be the 4 best NY Giant QB's of all time. Didn't see the part about top 40 QB's of all time. Warner was good, just not for the Giants.

In comment 14504866 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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I ask on these types of things is - "Why??" What's the motivation here? What other athlete, current or past has segments saying they stink? It speaks more about the level of journalism than anything else. We are out of the "shock jock" Era and in the Era of loudmouthed armchair guys. No accountability either. Skip Bayless can be wrong 99 times out of 100 and often is, yet as long as he gets clicks/views/ratings - it doesn't matter.

Amen, all that.

About Kellerman, maybe he just now said the word "stinks" to describe an all-timer, but he's been on this tirade, in one fashion or another, for literally years now. Smarmy, wanna punch him in the forehead tirade about Eli not measuring up.

I liked the guy ... but stopped paying attention to him a while ago.

.

when you only saw him for boxing.

Who cares what Max Kellerman thinks about Eli? Who cares what any talking head thinks about Eli? They get paid to make noise, so they make noise. It doesn't mean anything. It's just noise.

In comment 14504986 Eric from BBI said:

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That said, from an efficiency standpoint, Eli actually had one of his better seasons in 2018. He completed a career-high 66 percent of his passes and threw only 11 interceptions. ... But based on 2018, he doesn't "stink." He's still being vastly underrated, like has most of his career.

I guess it's how you define "efficiency". Stating the obvious not all completions are created equal. A dump off on 3rd and 8 that goes for 6 is not as valuable than a 3rd and 4 that goes for 6. If you look at Alex he's one of the worst.

ALEX represents Air Less EXpected on third downs, the average difference between the length of the quarterback's throw and the distance needed for a new set of downs. The number listed here only includes third downs and is not adjusted for passes thrown away or batted down.

and you can't blame it all on the OL bc there are QBs that also had putrid lines that ranked much much higher.

if you judge efficiency by stats that better answer the question "how efficiently does the QB increase the chances of scoring" he was near the league bottom last year...
FO QB - ( New Window )

when a guy works for ESPN and does all of his research by watching ESPN.
ESPNception.

In comment 14504998 Les in TO said:

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In comment 14504986 Eric from BBI said: Quote: One can make a legitimate argument that based on where this team is now in terms of its rebuild, that it does not make sense to go with Eli too much longer. That said, from an efficiency standpoint, Eli actually had one of his better seasons in 2018. He completed a career-high 66 percent of his passes and threw only 11 interceptions. He's clearly on the downside of his career. And to be frank, he would probably be better served being on another team that is "only" a QB short of being a contender. But based on 2018, he doesn't "stink." He's still being vastly underrated, like has most of his career. he was inconsistent. Pretty good second half of the season (except for the titans game) but generally atrocious the first half (minus the Texans game).

I wouldn't call his second half pretty good. Sure the colts game was like old eli and he bounced back good against Dallas after a poor start. But the other games he either did a good job managing the game or was inconsistent.

In comment 14504991 dep026 said:

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The giants have been one of the least talented franchises in the last 15 years in the NFL. How the fuck can judge a player when his surrounding cast has been average or worse? There was a whole thread dedicated to this where it actually shows the research. Of course it went unnoticed by many since narratives weren’t meant.

All that said, it doesn't change the fact that Eli is 38 and more immobile than ever.

So unless you have a time machine that can reverse time, this point is moot.

ALEX is an interesting metric. I noticed some of the QB's with the top overall QBR scores also had low ALEX scores. Brees, Luck, Wentz just to name a few.

So my question is how much weight should we be putting on the ALEX score?

.... My God do I want Eli to shove a Giant shit covered football down a lot of throats this year.

And Max Kellerman? Stick to boxing dood.

In comment 14505057 Snacks said:

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ALEX is an interesting metric. I noticed some of the QB's with the top overall QBR scores also had low ALEX scores. Brees, Luck, Wentz just to name a few. So my question is how much weight should we be putting on the ALEX score?

I think together the metrics tell the story. None of those had negative ALEX. Yet, those guys had amongst the highest accuracy and percentage numbers - 74.6%, 67.7%, 70.1%, respectively. Translates to higher YAC and Net Yard per Attempt...

My take, FWIW

In comment 14505056 bw in dc said:

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In comment 14504991 dep026 said: Quote: The giants have been one of the least talented franchises in the last 15 years in the NFL. How the fuck can judge a player when his surrounding cast has been average or worse? There was a whole thread dedicated to this where it actually shows the research. Of course it went unnoticed by many since narratives weren’t meant. All that said, it doesn't change the fact that Eli is 38 and more immobile than ever. So unless you have a time machine that can reverse time, this point is moot.

I wouldn’t call Brady, Brees, Rivers, Ben, etc mobile z

This narrative is that they move better in the pocket with their feet is a great laugh for me. How do you know if one can move within the pocket.... WHEN THERE IS NO POCKET!!!!

In comment 14505067 V.I.G. said:

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In comment 14505057 Snacks said: Quote: ALEX is an interesting metric. I noticed some of the QB's with the top overall QBR scores also had low ALEX scores. Brees, Luck, Wentz just to name a few. So my question is how much weight should we be putting on the ALEX score? I think together the metrics tell the story. None of those had negative ALEX. Yet, those guys had amongst the highest accuracy and percentage numbers - 74.6%, 67.7%, 70.1%, respectively. Translates to higher YAC and Net Yard per Attempt... My take, FWIW

Interesting. Appreciate the response man.

In comment 14505069 dep026 said:

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I wouldn’t call Brady, Brees, Rivers, Ben, etc mobile z This narrative is that they move better in the pocket with their feet is a great laugh for me. How do you know if one can move within the pocket.... WHEN THERE IS NO POCKET!!!!

Roeth is very nimble. One of the game's great improvisers.

Hard to argue with Brees' ability to process information and deliver the ball accurately at an ungodly rate. And he has that cocksucker Payton, who I can't stand but he's an offensive wizard. Same with Brady. They are great craftsman at playing winning football with limited physical ability.

River is an anachronism. He looks and plays like a guy from the '70s and '80s. I almost feel like he should be smoking cigarettes just to underscore what a throwback he is. His ability to make plays is uncanny.

Eli had some of his QB rating games of his career last year. He had SIX games with a QBR over 100. He had two more that were in the 98-99 range.

Again, I'm not known around here as a super strong Eli backer or detractor. I'm in the middle.

But he did not have a "bad" year last year. My biggest nitpick with him for the last few years is I think he's become gun-shy. But once again, he got clobbered behind that offensive line. And there were a number of games where the offense did its job and the defense blew it again.

Whivch is pretty much a pre-requisite store ESPN.

Let this OL is even a little bit Above average even diminished he will have a pretty good year IMO.

of the careers of Brett Favre, Jerry Rice, Joe Namath, OJ Simpson, Tony Dorsett, Randy Moss and Warren Moon, all who really struggled or weren't even starting anymore.

Did anyone say they stunk??

But today, that passes for acceptable behavior.

There are no standards left.

In comment 14505084 Eric from BBI said:

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Eli had some of his QB rating games of his career last year. He had SIX games with a QBR over 100. He had two more that were in the 98-99 range. Again, I'm not known around here as a super strong Eli backer or detractor. I'm in the middle. But he did not have a "bad" year last year. My biggest nitpick with him for the last few years is I think he's become gun-shy. But once again, he got clobbered behind that offensive line. And there were a number of games where the offense did its job and the defense blew it again.

I'll say this for my source of optimism:

1) This offense will be year 2 in the system. Hopefully Eli can trust that he will be on the same page as his receivers, and start throwing to spots rather than waiting for the player to break.

2) The OL should give him some more time / Barkley more space. He has always been great at play action, and now defenses should respect the run more. Hopefully they can pass more out of these 12 sets (a topic that has been popularized in the analytics community)

3) He's dropped some weight so hopefully he gets some of that pocket fluidity back [so he's less "gun shy"]

But frankly, defenses didn't respect Eli last year. They dared him to beat them deep and he for the most part couldn't. Defenses gave him the underneath recognizing that his short accuracy doesn't set his receivers up for big YAC and they could stop them. Eli needs to make defenses pay on the deep and intermediate.

And yet he threw for 4,299 yards (4th highest of his career) and 1,000 more than he did in 2007. And that was despite Evan Engram not showing up for the first half of the season and Odell disappearing for the second half and a hodge-podge of receiving targets other than Sterling Shepard.

I hear what you are saying. And the offense was very hit or miss last year. But again, if you look at the actual numbers, Eli had one of his best seasons in terms of yards and efficiency. If you listen to the pundits, they would have you believe he was a clusterfuck out there.

I'd say its about 50/50 going into this season, and that might be optimistic homerism. Giants are a good dark horse to win the NFC East this year, but I have this sinking feeling that Daniel Jones is immediately a way better fit for the offense. Just having a QB who can run a little bit with Barkley in the backfield could make a huge difference. There's a lot I don't like about DG but when I look at this team compared to a couple years ago, they have made the right kind of adjustments. Without question, there has been a concerted effort to improve the OL. I love having all these big school defenders coming in. QB has become perhaps the biggest question. At least we have options now.

Last year, I wonder how many would still say he stink.

If you remember Matt SGS’s post... Eli played in some of the worst weather games last year as well.

Nobody takes into these factors which is pretty poor IMao.

In comment 14504993 Les in TO said:

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In comment 14504968 Reale01 said: Quote: Four "Giants" on the list Kerry Collins YA Tittle Kurt Warner Phil Simms One noticeable Giant omission. that list had Dave Krieg Randall Cunningham and vinny testaverde on the list. Maybe the author is a client of Jeff hatch.

Anybody who thinks that Dave Krieg, Randall Cunningham, Vinny Testavarde (wtflol?!!!!?!) and Kerry Collins were better than Eli has lost the plot.

In comment 14505103 Eric from BBI said:

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And yet he threw for 4,299 yards (4th highest of his career) and 1,000 more than he did in 2007. And that was despite Evan Engram not showing up for the first half of the season and Odell disappearing for the second half and a hodge-podge of receiving targets other than Sterling Shepard. I hear what you are saying. And the offense was very hit or miss last year. But again, if you look at the actual numbers, Eli had one of his best seasons in terms of yards and efficiency. If you listen to the pundits, they would have you believe he was a clusterfuck out there.

QB numbers are up all across the league, so it doesn't make sense to compare it to ten years ago to prove he's still got it. Hell, Ryan Fitzpatrick puts up video game numbers at times.

In comment 14505105 dep026 said:

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Last year, I wonder how many would still say he stink. If you remember Matt SGS’s post... Eli played in some of the worst weather games last year as well. Nobody takes into these factors which is pretty poor IMao.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you anit-stats

QBR matters. Again, he had six games with a QBR well over 100 and two more near 100. That's half the games he played.

And again, I'm not saying Eli "had a great year." Hell, I am not even saying he had a "good" year. He's the head of the offense and the offense didn't get the job done.

But IMO, you can't objectively look at his game last year and come to the conclusion that he was a bad QB.

I'll stand by what I've said for a couple of years now, the Giants robbed Eli of the second-half of his career. And now with the team getting better, his career is coming to an end. They really botched this.

However, we also have posters on this thread looking for Eli Manning to play better in 2019 because:

- he has lost some weight
- the weather should be better vs 2018
- our receiving core last year was bad

Did I miss any other nuggets like "his dog ate the gameplan"?

I'm not pro pundit nor am I pro homer. I'm sort of like you - in the middle. I second all the above comments about clicks and hot takes and one could make the claim that those same ills have infected all media and general societal discourse. One could debate the chicken and egg and there.

Nonetheless, that's absolutely not my intent here. I was just offering another perspective based on some of the newer statistics used in that analytics crowd. Hypothetically, if Eli were to see improvement in some of those stats, yet those traditional stats like Total Yards and Comp% decreased, we might still have a more productive offense.

This is what the media does nowadays. Some are placing bets that Eli will fail this year so they can continue that narrative.

Eli looked like he was laboring at times last year. What is unfortunate is that Eli's narrative would have been much different if the Giants could have assembled just a solid OL after 2011.

Take a look at some of the other top QB's during the Eli era. Did they have such porous line for so long? The teams who have won in our won division recently have what in common? Dallas got good again because Garrett knows what made those early 90's teams so good.

I hope Eli and the Giants have a great year. I am pulling for him and at least to start this season I feel like this will be the most solidly built line Eli has had since the tail end of 2011. If they can run the ball and provide solid protection and Eli is holding them back then give Jones the keys. I am not betting against him though.

In comment 14505118 Eric from BBI said:

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QBR matters. Again, he had six games with a QBR well over 100 and two more near 100. That's half the games he played.

I was more talking about the yardage aspect. But even so the amount of QBs that have a passer rating over 90 is higher than its been.

It’s as easy to play in downpours as it is in nice weather or even dome games?

They aren’t fucking excuses. They are facts.

In comment 14505121 Eric from BBI said:

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And again, I'm not saying Eli "had a great year." Hell, I am not even saying he had a "good" year. He's the head of the offense and the offense didn't get the job done. But IMO, you can't objectively look at his game last year and come to the conclusion that he was a bad QB. I'll stand by what I've said for a couple of years now, the Giants robbed Eli of the second-half of his career. And now with the team getting better, his career is coming to an end. They really botched this.

Your last paragraph kinda bothers me. The org robbed the fans of a competitive team. Eli got paid hansomly during that period. It's the NY Giants, not the NY Eli Mannings.

The fans who got robbed are generally angry because of the way the Giants mishandled the back 9 of Eli's career.

The two go hand-in-hand.

No one feels bad for Eli's bank account. But I think most people also realize that Eli is a competitor and not the type of guy who is just comfortable collecting paychecks and going home. If that were the case, he'd have stopped taking all these beatings a few years ago.

He wants to win and he's a competitor. Think about all of the frustration and things he probably kept to himself for years because he's too much of a professional to makes waves and create stories.

When Eli walks away from football, he'll have been paid handsomely, he'll be a Super Bowl champion and SB MVP... twice. He'll regret none of that.

But both he and many Giant fans will certainly wonder "what could have been..." if the front office hadn't so badly botched managing this football team for what is going on about 7-8 years now.

It's great that we got what we did with Eli here. A lot of us can't help but feel like it could have been even better.

But Eli's contract is not what prevented the Giants from fielding a competitive team.

Draft after draft was a disaster for the Giants for the bulk of this past decade.

They also spent tens of millions of dollars on free agents who simply didn't pan out.

In a nutshell, the Giants - as an organization - have not been able to field a profession offensive line and linebacking corps for a decade. Except for last year, the same thing with special teams.

The defense has been near dead last outside of 2016. The running game a joke until Barkley.

I don't know many QBs who can function without even a semi-competent OL.

Criticized the way Eli has competed and carried himself on and off the field. It would be foolish to do so. Even during benchgate where I felt he put his own interests over the teams intetests, he had every right to do so. (I'm sure lots of you will disagree with my take here, your objections are noted ahead of time).

It just feels like the org and a lot of the fans are more concerned with Elis legacy over putting a competive product on the field. Yes as you stated, both things go hand in hand but its hard to argue that you you had a QB with the same skill set and cap hit on the roster without Eli's history he would be a cap casualty by now.

In comment 14505161 Eric from BBI said:

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But Eli's contract is not what prevented the Giants from fielding a competitive team. Draft after draft was a disaster for the Giants for the bulk of this past decade. They also spent tens of millions of dollars on free agents who simply didn't pan out. In a nutshell, the Giants - as an organization - have not been able to field a profession offensive line and linebacking corps for a decade. Except for last year, the same thing with special teams. The defense has been near dead last outside of 2016. The running game a joke until Barkley. I don't know many QBs who can function without even a semi-competent OL.

No objection to anything you wrote.

But the org let the fans down. They didn't let Eli down. Eli is a paid member of the team he is on the roster for the fans, not the other way around.

with the same defense and they would be inscribing his tombstone. Eli only survived because he is tough as a boot.

There's certainly a sentimentality factor with Eli amongst fans and ownership. That's hard to avoid after all we've been through with him and the fact that it could be a long, long time before another Giants QB ever matches or exceeds the career he had.

I think it's just difficult to be completely objective on Eli. It's hard to be a Giants fan and not find yourself caring a bit about his legacy and how he goes out and how this all ends.

I've certainly criticized them for valuing sentimentality over objectivity - but at the same time, it's a slippery slope. It's a Giants legend and ushering a guy like this out at the end of his career is often dicey and doesn't go the way we want it to.

It's frustrating as a fan because Eli was still playing at a very high level through 2015.

McAdoo was a really bad hire for him. I just think that offense and all the different footwork and stuff he tried to change this late in Eli's career was a big mistake. It turned 2016 and 2017 into tough years for him - even though we won 11 games in 2016. It was mostly on the heels of the defense. Eli didn't play particularly well that year, and he was in an impossible situation in 2017.

I think he was okay last year. Not great. Also not bad.

It is what it is at this point... I just think this has to be the end of the road barring some sort of crazy revenge tour that no one really sees coming. But, my guess is Daniel Jones is under center by mid-season.

I'm just going to try and enjoy what are likely to be Eli's final games here - and probably his final games in general.

I don't think it's really going to hit a lot of people until he's really gone. The best thing I think we can all do as fans at this point is simply root for him and support him until it's time to make the switch. When the time comes, the time comes.

I wish the brass had done a better job while he still had the ability to be a Championship caliber QB - but I can't change the past. What's done is done.

Hopefully Eli will be able to ride off into the sunset on the heels of something better than what we've mostly seen the last few years.

In comment 14505170 since1925 said:

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with the same defense and they would be inscribing his tombstone. Eli only survived because he is tough as a boot.

No one gets the ball out quicker tha Brady

And Eli hasn't taken that many devastating hits. He knows how to protect himself.

In comment 14505172 ron mexico said:

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In comment 14505170 since1925 said: Quote: with the same defense and they would be inscribing his tombstone. Eli only survived because he is tough as a boot. No one gets the ball out quicker tha Brady And Eli hasn't taken that many devastating hits. He knows how to protect himself.

Actually Eli has been one of the fastest in getting rid of the ball the last few years.

In comment 14505112 Nine-Tails said:

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In comment 14505105 dep026 said: Quote: Last year, I wonder how many would still say he stink. If you remember Matt SGS’s post... Eli played in some of the worst weather games last year as well. Nobody takes into these factors which is pretty poor IMao. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you anit-stats

I am. Just showing what a thin line between what one person thinks is terrible to a pro bowl type season.

Ahhh.... agree completely.

But that 2011 team rapidly decomposed around Eli. I always felt Eli, Cruz, and Hakeem carried that team until the defense and running game started to show some life late in the regular-season (Jets game). Folks forget that we were at or near dead last in rushing and defense in 2011.

The line was already fraying, especially at tackle, in 2011. And Reese and Ross were NEVER able to fix it. Year after year.