Great pocket to throw from. Followed one receiver and threw him the ball. Threw to his #1 option every single time. Noting wrong with that. He completed the passes.
Before the game I said for Jones it would be abut building his confidence. Shumer did a great job of giving Jones plays where he could succeed. Terrific job by Shumer.
So I completely agree with Carter. I didn't predict Jones would go 5-5. The kid looked comfortable. But as I said in another thread, this is a sugar high. Give it time. Let it play out.
I don't know that Chris Carter is entirely wrong Â
first off he talked about how Daniel Jones did a good job and made good throws.
He does point out that the Giants left their first team o-line in with Jones against the Jets backup defenders. He says this was smart of the Giants to help Jones have success.
He then talks about the touchdown pass. He points out that Jones locked in on his target from the snap until the throw. Carter says a starting NFL safety is going to pick up on that which the Jets safety didn't.
He then points out that the Jets safety put himself in bad position to make a play on the TD pass. He might be right, he might be wrong, but it's possible a NFL caliber starting safety would have made a play on the ball. The Jets safety did get turned around and had his back to the play.
Not defending Carter, but I didn't get the arrogant douche impression from his comments.
Remember - Cris Carter is the same guy who insinuated that Haskins Â
that's ok because they are teachable and weren't that bad. He didn't mention if they were against 2nd string defenses ( I'll bet they were). Jones throw 5 completions one he throws for a TD and Carter says it wasn't a great throw it should have been a pick (which is debatable) and it was against a 2nd string D. Do I sense some bitterness here?
The safety was a stuck in place because of the nice route run by Fowler, which was a go route with a bit of a wiggle, throw in a routecombo. The safety would likely have contested a straight up go route.
I have never seen such nitpicking of a preseason TD.
If you can’t rationally absorb the salient points Carter is making you need another hobby for Sundays, September thru December.
Everyone understands the points it's the way he defends one quarterback who throws 2 picks and finds fault with a TD play. This especially how vocal he was after the draft about the two of them. He still maybe proven correct long term it's just curious at this time. Besides was Haskins throwing against the two's? Funny how it was never mentioned. And I'm a guy who actually wanted them to draft Haskins.
If you can’t rationally absorb the salient points Carter is making you need another hobby for Sundays, September thru December.
Everyone understands the points it's the way he defends one quarterback who throws 2 picks and finds fault with a TD play. This especially how vocal he was after the draft about the two of them. He still maybe proven correct long term it's just curious at this time. Besides was Haskins throwing against the two's? Funny how it was never mentioned. And I'm a guy who actually wanted them to draft Haskins.
Carter said Haskins completely misjudged the speed of NFL linebackers on the pick 6. But go ahead and keep looking for UFOs and Bigfoot...
RE: bw is just giddy because he's hoping that Daniel Jones fails Â
It was incorrect and agenda driven. Other than that, nothing.
You weren’t mistakingly watching CNN...were you?
He said there was only one receiver on that side of the field...wrong. He said the safety should have been out wide. Maybe that's correct, but if it is, do you think Jones still throws the ball there when he has Ellison underneath and a RB wide open right in front of him.
He said there was only one receiver on that side of the field...wrong. He said the safety should have been out wide. Maybe that's correct, but if it is, do you think Jones still throws the ball there when he has Ellison underneath and a RB wide open right in front of him.
Ok, maybe that’s fair. I don’t know. But Mangini said the same thing yesterday. What’s his agenda?
If you can’t rationally absorb the salient points Carter is making you need another hobby for Sundays, September thru December.
Everyone understands the points it's the way he defends one quarterback who throws 2 picks and finds fault with a TD play. This especially how vocal he was after the draft about the two of them. He still maybe proven correct long term it's just curious at this time. Besides was Haskins throwing against the two's? Funny how it was never mentioned. And I'm a guy who actually wanted them to draft Haskins.
Carter said Haskins completely misjudged the speed of NFL linebackers on the pick 6. But go ahead and keep looking for UFOs and Bigfoot...
The defense can be out of position or make mistakes and it's still a good decision and throw by Jones.
If the defense plays it the way certain people say does Jones still throw the ball? If he does, maybe he still fits it where only the receiver can get it (manning to Manningham)?
Perhaps he goes elsewhere with the ball, or runs.
Jones is going to make poor throws, reads, decisions just like he is going to make good throws, reads and decisions.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Uh, what exactly was wrong with... Â
He said there was only one receiver on that side of the field...wrong. He said the safety should have been out wide. Maybe that's correct, but if it is, do you think Jones still throws the ball there when he has Ellison underneath and a RB wide open right in front of him.
Ok, maybe that’s fair. I don’t know. But Mangini said the same thing yesterday. What’s his agenda?
It may or may not be a fair assessment. But, it is impossible to speculate at this time what Jones would do if that S was wider. The fact remains that he saw the window and made a very good throw. Now, if they run a similar play in the coming weeks and the S is wider and it results in an INT or INC then, we have something to talk about. Likewise, if he makes that read and checks down to the TE or RB, we have something else to talk about. Either way, last night was one series; not enough to say anything too high or too low.
RE: RE: bw is just giddy because he's hoping that Daniel Jones fails Â
because he's a bigger fan of his own opinion than the Giants.
Gee, you got me. I’ll self-ban...
If that's not the case why are you so eager to find analysts trashing Daniel Jones after he just went 5 for 5 in his preseason debut and then trashing other posters because they defend him?
what he remarks about in that video is fine. You may disagree with some of it but he isn’t being irrational.
not everything is the World against the Giants...
At face value theres nothing egregious about his comments. When you take into account that he flat out said the Giants must have a racial agenda in order to select Jones over Haskins, then listen to him explain away 2 Haskins picks and spend 2 minutes of a 15 minute segment downplaying Jones' td pass it seems to fit his agenda.
The funniest part is that he takes time to try and explain that he doesnt allowngis judgement on a rookie prospect influence how he analyzes there play when you can make the argument that he just did exactly that.
Both Chris and Nick already accused the Giants of being racist because they drafted Jones over Haskins. Carter was sticking to his agenda on this. He was guaranteeing it would have been intercepted if the Jets' first-team was out there. That's a BS prediction and did he not notice the TD was to Fowler? Is Fowler on our 1st team?
If ya'll notice Carter immediately followed up with a rant that he ignores everything he said during and following the draft. That he evaluates them evenly with a fresh start. Why did he feel the need to bring that up? Because he was doing exactly that, that's why.
This just proves how NY gets criticized harder than most teams and Chris and Nick will stick with their own agenda to create controversy. They felt the need to point out Jones played against the Jets 2nd team pass defense but apparently, Haskins threw his 2 interceptions to an in their prime Deion Sanders and Darrelle Revis because they didn't bother mentioning their boy Haskins was also playing against 2nd-team.
what he remarks about in that video is fine. You may disagree with some of it but he isn’t being irrational.
not everything is the World against the Giants...
At face value theres nothing egregious about his comments. When you take into account that he flat out said the Giants must have a racial agenda in order to select Jones over Haskins, then listen to him explain away 2 Haskins picks and spend 2 minutes of a 15 minute segment downplaying Jones' td pass it seems to fit his agenda.
The funniest part is that he takes time to try and explain that he doesnt allowngis judgement on a rookie prospect influence how he analyzes there play when you can make the argument that he just did exactly that.
LOL! I must have started typing while you were posting. I'm in complete agreement with you.
wouldn't have been drafted high if were a black QB with his stats at Duke. He also said the Giants passed on Haskins and picked Jones cause of racial bias. Those were his statements and you can go read them if you need a refreshing of Carter's mindset.
So of course when people are changing their opinion of Jones and even gushing about him, Carter has to run him down while not being anywhere nearly as critical of Haskins. This is what you call bias.
Chris Carter is the last person I would go to for an objective opinion on Daniel Jones. Starting NFL safeties also make ton of mistakes and get flat out beat. They are not gods who pick off every ball and break up every play. To assume they do is ludicrous otherwise NFL QBs would have a 15% completion percentage. Jones made a great pass. All rookie QBs are doing more simple things see Kyler Murray. Jones happened to the best of them while Haskins was up and down. End of story.
Carter tried to overanalyze it cause he doesn't like Jones and tried to knock to fit his agenda. Jones will never get a fair shake from Carter for a number of reasons one of them being the color of his skin. That is why no one likes Chris Carter. He is a petty and biased.
RE: RE: RE: bw is just giddy because he's hoping that Daniel Jones fails Â
If that's not the case why are you so eager to find analysts trashing Daniel Jones after he just went 5 for 5 in his preseason debut and then trashing other posters because they defend him?
For the recollection impaired, I didn't make this thread and link the video.
And as posted above, wrong facts. There was not one receiver on that side of the field. There were Jets starters on the field. Correcting the factual errors would have helped.
‘
And it makes no sense to say that the safety never picked up on the read, and had he, then he gets a pick. If Jones sees the safety doesn’t pick up route and throws a TD, was that the wrong decision? Maybe if he breaks on the route, Jones goes somewhere else with the ball?
You can’t change one variable in a series of inter-related variable and then state what should have happened. It’s idiotic. That is what is wrong with what Carter said.
And as posted above, wrong facts. There was not one receiver on that side of the field. There were Jets starters on the field. Correcting the factual errors would have helped.
‘
And it makes no sense to say that the safety never picked up on the read, and had he, then he gets a pick. If Jones sees the safety doesn’t pick up route and throws a TD, was that the wrong decision? Maybe if he breaks on the route, Jones goes somewhere else with the ball?
inexplicably actually, is that CC has had an agenda since the 41-0 drubbing 18 1/2 years ago. I realize you were away from this site for about 10 of those years, but sheesh, how can you NOT know this.
So that’s “what’s wrong” with what he said. It’s skewed, because in reality, you can knock virtually every completed TD toss..
Nothing to see here save for the obvious.
RE: RE: RE: RE: bw is just giddy because he's hoping that Daniel Jones fails Â
If that's not the case why are you so eager to find analysts trashing Daniel Jones after he just went 5 for 5 in his preseason debut and then trashing other posters because they defend him?
For the recollection impaired, I didn't make this thread and link the video.
You've been banging that drum in a separate thread and continued so here. At least the person who made this thread seems to be supporting Daniel Jones, which is more than can be said about you. You support bw.
Watching the video Carter seems too eager to discredit Jones. Like I said above Jones should be given credit for taking advantage of an out of position defender, Carter never mentions that. Carter seemed visibly keyed up to talk about the Jones td. It seemed to bother him that Jones was given credit for a great throw. At least that is how I saw it.
RE: RE: It was wrong because it used flawed logic Â
And as posted above, wrong facts. There was not one receiver on that side of the field. There were Jets starters on the field. Correcting the factual errors would have helped.
‘
And it makes no sense to say that the safety never picked up on the read, and had he, then he gets a pick. If Jones sees the safety doesn’t pick up route and throws a TD, was that the wrong decision? Maybe if he breaks on the route, Jones goes somewhere else with the ball?
I didn't see Jamaal Adams on the field. Did you?
By that logic we should ignore everything the Jets first team D did because Saquon Barkley wasn’t on the field. There were plenty of open options and we can’t say what would have happened had a Safety been in position. The fact is Jones recognized he would have the play and went with it.
DJ made the right read on the TD pass. The WR also ran the flag Â
where it needed to go. Safety got caught late diagnosing and DJ put the ball where it needed to be. Yeh if the Safety isn't caught a little out of position than he makes a play on the ball. But DJ may put that ball in a different spot if he is or looks to other side of the field for backside progression. The accuracy and ball placement really stuck out.
RE: I don't know that Chris Carter is entirely wrong Â
first off he talked about how Daniel Jones did a good job and made good throws.
He does point out that the Giants left their first team o-line in with Jones against the Jets backup defenders. He says this was smart of the Giants to help Jones have success.
He then talks about the touchdown pass. He points out that Jones locked in on his target from the snap until the throw. Carter says a starting NFL safety is going to pick up on that which the Jets safety didn't.
He then points out that the Jets safety put himself in bad position to make a play on the TD pass. He might be right, he might be wrong, but it's possible a NFL caliber starting safety would have made a play on the ball. The Jets safety did get turned around and had his back to the play.
Not defending Carter, but I didn't get the arrogant douche impression from his comments.
Carter would be wrong about the Jets backup defenders. They had 5 starters in as well as the 3rd overall pick Quinnen Williams. Did he mention anything about the Giants having their backup RB or their 2nd & 3rd TE or their 4th and 5th WRs playing?
that's ok because they are teachable and weren't that bad. He didn't mention if they were against 2nd string defenses ( I'll bet they were). Jones throw 5 completions one he throws for a TD and Carter says it wasn't a great throw it should have been a pick (which is debatable) and it was against a 2nd string D. Do I sense some bitterness here?
Haskins didn't play against ANY Browns starter. Daniel Jones played against a Jets D who had half their starters in.
I don't see anything problematic. It was pretty good analysis. Whether you agree or not is up to you. He looked really solid - I didn't think that last pass was great and I was surprised that no one seemed to mention it very well could have gotten picked. If that was the giants D, people would be saying "all (random DB) had to do was turn around". I thought it was a phenomenal debut but thank God there's room for improvement after the first exhibition game, as is expected. But you couldn't ask for a better series. As a therapist, I frequently have to tel people that they have to learn to hold more than one truth at a time. On BBI, I feel the need to tell people they really need to fucking learn to do that. I mean it's a lot more reasonable than baldinger, who people are ready to blow.
RE: RE: bw is just giddy because he's hoping that Daniel Jones fails Â
about the play. Any competent NFL safety makes an interception? It's a end zone corner route that was well-thrown. It's either a TD or an incompletion, probably more-likely incomplete because the WR has to make a nice catch and keep his feet in.
The Jets had a mix of 1st and 2nd team guys in, so saying that the safety is not an NFL player is wrong too. At least, he's a likely backup. Carter is grasping at straws to find something negative.
And it's time for new frames dude. Your face is way too fat for those.
RE: RE: It was wrong because it used flawed logic Â
And as posted above, wrong facts. There was not one receiver on that side of the field. There were Jets starters on the field. Correcting the factual errors would have helped.
‘
And it makes no sense to say that the safety never picked up on the read, and had he, then he gets a pick. If Jones sees the safety doesn’t pick up route and throws a TD, was that the wrong decision? Maybe if he breaks on the route, Jones goes somewhere else with the ball?
I didn't see Jamaal Adams on the field. Did you?
You are being intentionally obtuse. This is why you get the shit you do.
If Jamaal Adams is on the field and reads it correctly and breaks quicker, explain how you know Jones would have still thrown it there resulting in a pick.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: bw is just giddy because he's hoping that Daniel Jones fails Â
For the recollection impaired, I didn't make this thread and link the video.
You've been banging that drum in a separate thread and continued so here. At least the person who made this thread seems to be supporting Daniel Jones, which is more than can be said about you. You support bw.
Good one.
I wasn't banging any drum. Re-read what I wrote on the other thread. There is nothing nefarious. I was dovetailing what Sy said about Jones missing putting the TE in mostion on a prior play.
In other words, it was a football discussion.
And because I know the BBI Paranoia Crowd would have a breakdown if I mentioned just Carter, I mentioned Mangini to soften that expected blow. Alas, I misjudged the strength of the paranoid.
Let’s hyper analyze every QBs great throws, especially the rookies and see how many have these so called strings attached. Oh wait, no one rarely does that. But it’s the giants and Daniel jones so this is to be expected I guess.
I don't see anything problematic. It was pretty good analysis. Whether you agree or not is up to you. He looked really solid - I didn't think that last pass was great and I was surprised that no one seemed to mention it very well could have gotten picked. If that was the giants D, people would be saying "all (random DB) had to do was turn around". I thought it was a phenomenal debut but thank God there's room for improvement after the first exhibition game, as is expected. But you couldn't ask for a better series. As a therapist, I frequently have to tel people that they have to learn to hold more than one truth at a time. On BBI, I feel the need to tell people they really need to fucking learn to do that. I mean it's a lot more reasonable than baldinger, who people are ready to blow.
Solid analysis even when getting obvious facts wrong about the play including formation, routes run, and personnel?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: bw is just giddy because he's hoping that Daniel Jones fails Â
For the recollection impaired, I didn't make this thread and link the video.
You've been banging that drum in a separate thread and continued so here. At least the person who made this thread seems to be supporting Daniel Jones, which is more than can be said about you. You support bw.
Good one.
I wasn't banging any drum. Re-read what I wrote on the other thread. There is nothing nefarious. I was dovetailing what Sy said about Jones missing putting the TE in mostion on a prior play.
In other words, it was a football discussion.
And because I know the BBI Paranoia Crowd would have a breakdown if I mentioned just Carter, I mentioned Mangini to soften that expected blow. Alas, I misjudged the strength of the paranoid.
When 100% of your comments are why our rookie that went 5 for 5 and got a TD wasn't that impressive after trashing the pick since the draft I don't buy this shit of you just bestowing knowledge on BBI. Bullshit. You haven't said one positive thing about Jones's drive and if you have it has always been with a caveat. You're all about yourself.
But when he basically racially baited the Giants for drafting him and would cream himself if Haskins made that throw there's everything wrong with what he said.
RE: RE: RE: It was wrong because it used flawed logic Â
You are being intentionally obtuse. This is why you get the shit you do.
If Jamaal Adams is on the field and reads it correctly and breaks quicker, explain how you know Jones would have still thrown it there resulting in a pick.
Let me slow down my obtuseness.
I thought it was a great throw when I saw it. But then I heard Mangini - forget Carter - say how Jones basically got away with one. It caught me off guard. Mangini is a highly successful former DC and I thought it was an interesting observation. I was adding context - this came up yesterday - how things can be missed. Like when Sy said Jones missed motioning the TE.
When 100% of your comments are why our rookie that went 5 for 5 and got a TD wasn't that impressive after trashing the pick since the draft I don't buy this shit of you just bestowing knowledge on BBI. Bullshit. You haven't said one positive thing about Jones's drive and if you have it has always been with a caveat. You're all about yourself.
Uh, go read the comments thread, started by Eirc, when the game was being played.
You are being intentionally obtuse. This is why you get the shit you do.
If Jamaal Adams is on the field and reads it correctly and breaks quicker, explain how you know Jones would have still thrown it there resulting in a pick.
Let me slow down my obtuseness.
I thought it was a great throw when I saw it. But then I heard Mangini - forget Carter - say how Jones basically got away with one. It caught me off guard. Mangini is a highly successful former DC and I thought it was an interesting observation. I was adding context - this came up yesterday - how things can be missed. Like when Sy said Jones missed motioning the TE.
But what that analysis missed - by Carter and Mangini - is cause and effect. Why did he “get away with it” when he threw to a guy who was open and put the ball where the safety couldn’t get it? Is it wrong to take advantage of a mis-read or mis-play by a defender?
One of the QBs jobs is to read the defense and react to it. Why does their analysis exclude the possibility that that is exactly what happened? Why is ignoring some of the relevant factors a good analysis?
As a counterpoint, Greg Cossel talked about that play also on the Ross Tucker podcast and thought it was a good play. Do you think he just missed the nuances that Mangin and Carter picked up on?
RE: RE: bw is just giddy because he's hoping that Daniel Jones fails Â
because he's a bigger fan of his own opinion than the Giants.
Gee, you got me. I’ll self-ban...
I see the nutjobs are out again in full force that don't want to hear anything bad about their hero. My God. Carter said he did well!!!!! A freaking preseaosn game and Carter said he did well but yeah let's rip into CC.
There is an incredible homeristic sensitivity on here in which most posters on here are positive. And most of these posters never say anything bad about their beloved team. Thus they turn on any poster who is negative and whine that "they are always negative." Instead of just acknowledging that there are posters who offer a counter=-- they try to attack and they whine about the few tht are negative. Juts look here at Carter and how worked up they are about the pass. SO what? It's a preseason game and CC said he looked good!!!!!!!!!!
The majority of posters on here are positive. You'd think some of the usual suspects who whine about you would grow up and just stop focusing on one poster who doesn't share their pov and accept it's okay to disagree.
He did stare down the receiver or at least that side of the field. IIRC There was a man open on the other side running an out with no coverage underneath.
He made a good throw.
The defender did not play it well, but I think it is a little unfair to say that it SHOULD have been intercepted.
At the end of the video, CC says that he could see why he was a first-round pick.
He was throwing to a second-team receiver vs second-team defenders.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: It was wrong because it used flawed logic Â
But what that analysis missed - by Carter and Mangini - is cause and effect. Why did he “get away with it” when he threw to a guy who was open and put the ball where the safety couldn’t get it? Is it wrong to take advantage of a mis-read or mis-play by a defender?
One of the QBs jobs is to read the defense and react to it. Why does their analysis exclude the possibility that that is exactly what happened? Why is ignoring some of the relevant factors a good analysis?
As a counterpoint, Greg Cossel talked about that play also on the Ross Tucker podcast and thought it was a good play. Do you think he just missed the nuances that Mangin and Carter picked up on?
I did heard the GC link yesterday. I always enjoy his opinions. Do I think he's got the same defensive understanding as Mangini? Who has actually coached NFL schemes and players? I don't know...maybe. He's a very bright guy. So it could just be a difference of interpretation.
On the read, I think Mangini and Carter were saying NFL starting safeties wouldn't bite on that. So the success rate - my words - would be considerably less.
I hated the Jones pick when it was made, and I am still not sold. But my opinion of him is going to be based on what I see with my own two eyes as well as thoughtful analysis by those who know the game better than I do.
Jones played well and that TD throw was a good play by him. Carter and Mangini guessing at what might have happened if a different person were playing and did something differently, without changing what anyone else did, is it no way relevant or persuasive to me because it isn’t logical.
Jones missed putting the TE in motion on one play. That needs to be cleaned up. It was a mistake. The guy wasn’t perfect, but he was damn good.
At the end of the video, CC says that he could see why he was a first-round pick.
Good point. Carter said that now that Jones in actually in the league he will only evaluate what he sees and not go back to his pre-draft analysis of Jones's play at Duke.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: It was wrong because it used flawed logic Â
But what that analysis missed - by Carter and Mangini - is cause and effect. Why did he “get away with it” when he threw to a guy who was open and put the ball where the safety couldn’t get it? Is it wrong to take advantage of a mis-read or mis-play by a defender?
One of the QBs jobs is to read the defense and react to it. Why does their analysis exclude the possibility that that is exactly what happened? Why is ignoring some of the relevant factors a good analysis?
As a counterpoint, Greg Cossel talked about that play also on the Ross Tucker podcast and thought it was a good play. Do you think he just missed the nuances that Mangin and Carter picked up on?
I did heard the GC link yesterday. I always enjoy his opinions. Do I think he's got the same defensive understanding as Mangini? Who has actually coached NFL schemes and players? I don't know...maybe. He's a very bright guy. So it could just be a difference of interpretation.
On the read, I think Mangini and Carter were saying NFL starting safeties wouldn't bite on that. So the success rate - my words - would be considerably less.
And you keep skipping this part of the analysis in your responses...why do you assume he would have made the same throw if the safety didn’t bite? The conclusion that he “got away with one” necessarily assumes he would have. He said he threw it because of how the safety played it. Should everyone just assume he was lying?
RE: RE: RE: bw is just giddy because he's hoping that Daniel Jones fails Â
because he's a bigger fan of his own opinion than the Giants.
Gee, you got me. I’ll self-ban...
I see the nutjobs are out again in full force that don't want to hear anything bad about their hero. My God. Carter said he did well!!!!! A freaking preseaosn game and Carter said he did well but yeah let's rip into CC.
There is an incredible homeristic sensitivity on here in which most posters on here are positive. And most of these posters never say anything bad about their beloved team. Thus they turn on any poster who is negative and whine that "they are always negative." Instead of just acknowledging that there are posters who offer a counter=-- they try to attack and they whine about the few tht are negative. Juts look here at Carter and how worked up they are about the pass. SO what? It's a preseason game and CC said he looked good!!!!!!!!!!
The majority of posters on here are positive. You'd think some of the usual suspects who whine about you would grow up and just stop focusing on one poster who doesn't share their pov and accept it's okay to disagree.
When all you post is negative shit about a great performance on a Giants fan site you'll get called out. If you're more interested in finding ways that your rookie QB who had one of the more impressive debuts of a Giant in recent memory screwed than look at the positives of the drive you're going to get called out. Especially if your stance has been the pick was bad. It sounds like you're looking for any reason that he sucks to validate your opinion and that's more important than the player being. And stop with the persecution complex already. It's unbecoming. And Giants fans are positive that must be bad we should all be miserable like you. But wait you're a realist and a badass that just tells it like it is.
Advantage of mistakes is a huge part in football. Starting defenders make mistakes all the time. Even mistakes that we say "Shouldn't happen". It's a strange argument.
If analysts want to say something along the lines of, "Jones caught the defense out of position and took advantage" while also explaining that defenses aren't likely to make that mistake outside of preseason I don't think there would be much issue. Now I don't know what Mangini had to say, I only saw what Carter had to say.
But that analysis was fine. Jones was staring down receivers and lets face it he was looking at vanilla defenses. They were second teamers. All that is true. Whether or not Jones would've delivered that ball had the Safety's head been turned we will never know.
But you can already see Carter setting the foundation for backtracking on Jones being a bad pick.
Nothing to see here.
Seems Jones will replace Eli in more ways than one Â
He's going to be replace Eli as the media's favorite punching bag too it would appear. It's such blatant bias when you start saying you don't count a specific throw because 'it should have been picked off'. They would never say that about any throw made by other QBs. How many throws a game do QBs make that 'should have been picked off'? Yet, they aren't, and the completion all counts the same.
saying "Any NFL-quality safety would have intercepted that pass" is not good analysis. It sounds like something a drunk at a bar says when watching a game.
Had a QB guru on he explained out of the 5 passes 3 were first reads and the other two were reads off a high low concept. First one was the cross on the Latimer catch for 30 yards and the other was the touchdown throw. A good listen if you time.
to assume the world is against the Giants, but ask yourself - what other QB is being hyper-analyzed on if a TD pass should have been picked off?
Are they dissecting if Darnold's dropped pass by Peppers should have been picked? Are the questioning if Mayfield's impressive opening drive should have some disclaimers? Are they putting Haskins TD pass under the microscope?
Why are they doing it for Jones, and why are they commenting that a pass the defender never looked back for should have been picked?
That's a pass Aaron Rodgers makes a living off of. Are those assumptions made about his TD's, or is that grit and the heart of a champion?
to assume the world is against the Giants, but ask yourself - what other QB is being hyper-analyzed on if a TD pass should have been picked off?
Are they dissecting if Darnold's dropped pass by Peppers should have been picked? Are the questioning if Mayfield's impressive opening drive should have some disclaimers? Are they putting Haskins TD pass under the microscope?
Why are they doing it for Jones, and why are they commenting that a pass the defender never looked back for should have been picked?
That's a pass Aaron Rodgers makes a living off of. Are those assumptions made about his TD's, or is that grit and the heart of a champion?
EXACTLY! You can make an argument that any TD pass was in part a poor play by the defense. No other QB has this type of scrutiny. But he's Daniel Jones and these assholes have an agenda.
Mahomes or Rodgers make that pass and it's a proof of their Â
just won't be compared to Eli in the way that he looks, talks and acts but also how the media perceives his performance and value!
Note on analysts claiming Jones was put in a position to have success. The Giants have had other QBs for several years now that they have drafted generally high. My guess is that they have put them in the same position to succeed. None of them looked as good as Jones did on Thursday!
It's good be cautiously optimistic but I feel some of the analysts are going out of their way.
Of course it's business in the end. 2 pages worth of engagement going on here over this.
That he locked on to Fowler and Fowler was the only receiver on that side of the field which is just flat wrong.
There was a Giants receiver open at the goal line on the same side of the field. If Carter can tell who Jones was looking at he must have super human abilities
just won't be compared to Eli in the way that he looks, talks and acts but also how the media perceives his performance and value!
Note on analysts claiming Jones was put in a position to have success. The Giants have had other QBs for several years now that they have drafted generally high. My guess is that they have put them in the same position to succeed. None of them looked as good as Jones did on Thursday!
It's good be cautiously optimistic but I feel some of the analysts are going out of their way.
Of course it's business in the end. 2 pages worth of engagement going on here over this.
He wasn’t looking at Fowler he was looking to that side of the field. As explained on the locked on podcast he had a hi low concept read. He made the read and threw to the hi receiver which resulted in a TD.
It was a ridiculous take that he said the Giants were racist to take Jones. But this breakdown is perfectly acceptable. If you watch the play again he had a TE WIDER OPEN over the middle. It may not have been a TD but it would have been close. Jones was immediately staring to where he was throwing it the whole time. It was a risky throw. It worked out but just because it worked out doesn't mean everybody should verbally blow the throw.
With that said, I want Jones taking risks. He needs to figure the game out. He needs to know what his limitations are and that will never happen playing it safe all the time. He took a risk and it paid off. Next time maybe it doesn't but that is okay.
Most of the hyper-analysis is coming from you all Â
. The fact is Jones recognized he would have the play and went with it.
I love the throw, but I don't know if him attempting it was the product of any sort of recognition. I just don't know. We can't say that he wouldn't have thrown it if he spotted something with the safety.
We've seen Eli make throws for years to a receiver who ran a wrong route... the throw was still made. Same could have happened with Jones' throw had the safety acted differently.
RE: RE: RE: RE: bw is just giddy because he's hoping that Daniel Jones fails Â
When all you post is negative shit about a great performance on a Giants fan site you'll get called out. If you're more interested in finding ways that your rookie QB who had one of the more impressive debuts of a Giant in recent memory screwed than look at the positives of the drive you're going to get called out. Especially if your stance has been the pick was bad. It sounds like you're looking for any reason that he sucks to validate your opinion and that's more important than the player being. And stop with the persecution complex already. It's unbecoming. And Giants fans are positive that must be bad we should all be miserable like you. But wait you're a realist and a badass that just tells it like it is.
Laughable that you use words like "called out." I'll just use words for posters like you as "cheerleading."
WHen you say "you" again you are implying I said something was bad form Jones. It's just that in a preseason game if an analyst nit-pciks I don't go off-the-rail whining like a bitch after one freaking presason game. Typical nutjob post from posters like you to get all worked up over it. I said Jones looked good several times on here. I said Carter said Jones looked good. But keep living in your cheerleading fantasy world.
I said Joens looked good and you twist this into valdiiating my opinion he is bad? You're a complete quack.
And ohhh yeah -- I'm miserable because I think the GMEn are rebuilding this year and hope Jones will be good for the future so in 2020 we can be awesome. But yeah keep playing that "misery card" - you're a nut. ANyone who complains that his team is most likely going to not be good must be miserable, right? Don;t cry to mom this year if the giants don;t make the playoffs, okay?
Next year is the big year so maybe mom can give you some needed hugs this year to get you through the season.
but he put the ball in a good spot. Enough with the what ifs?! He made a good play, so let's leave it at that. He had an open receiver on the left side for a TD as well, but chose to stick with his first read.
We should all just be looking at how Jones looked operating and moving and throwing and less at the actual results. It’s preseason. It’s practice. Look at these players in a vacuum. Jones will likely get worse before he gets better. He will have his setbacks. Peaks and valleys and it likely won’t be linear. We should all be looking for jones to learn how to win one step at a time. And when he wins we shouldn’t hyper analyze every fucking game and drive and moment as if it’s last. Good luck with that though. Just learn to win and then win a lot.
first off he talked about how Daniel Jones did a good job and made good throws.
He does point out that the Giants left their first team o-line in with Jones against the Jets backup defenders. He says this was smart of the Giants to help Jones have success.
He then talks about the touchdown pass. He points out that Jones locked in on his target from the snap until the throw. Carter says a starting NFL safety is going to pick up on that which the Jets safety didn't.
He then points out that the Jets safety put himself in bad position to make a play on the TD pass. He might be right, he might be wrong, but it's possible a NFL caliber starting safety would have made a play on the ball. The Jets safety did get turned around and had his back to the play.
Not defending Carter, but I didn't get the arrogant douche impression from his comments.
Curious about this first team vs second team narrative. Don’t remember seeing Barkley, Engram or Shepherd on the field during that drive.
Have they all been demoted to second team
Just when you think sports reporting, and fan narratives can’t get any sillier, they do. Lol
gave a very fair assessment of what he saw. Thursday night, my son said the exact same thing about the TD throw. Even if you disagree, why in the world would you call him a douche. His overall comments on the night for DJ were appropriately critical and did not diminish what DJ accomplished.
RE: RE: I don't know that Chris Carter is entirely wrong Â
first off he talked about how Daniel Jones did a good job and made good throws.
He does point out that the Giants left their first team o-line in with Jones against the Jets backup defenders. He says this was smart of the Giants to help Jones have success.
He then talks about the touchdown pass. He points out that Jones locked in on his target from the snap until the throw. Carter says a starting NFL safety is going to pick up on that which the Jets safety didn't.
He then points out that the Jets safety put himself in bad position to make a play on the TD pass. He might be right, he might be wrong, but it's possible a NFL caliber starting safety would have made a play on the ball. The Jets safety did get turned around and had his back to the play.
Not defending Carter, but I didn't get the arrogant douche impression from his comments.
Curious about this first team vs second team narrative. Don’t remember seeing Barkley, Engram or Shepherd on the field during that drive.
Have they all been demoted to second team
Just when you think sports reporting, and fan narratives can’t get any sillier, they do. Lol
They kept the 1st team offensive line in there which was a smart on Schumer's part
This is what I don't get...it was a read to the short side of the Â
field that he made correctly. Which he should since it was a basic cover 2. Was the safety late to react? Yes, but DJ put that ball pretty much right where it needed to be based on the safeties positioning.
I watched his take on youtube...and peolple are handwring because Â
they don't like what he said on draft day about the Giants being racist (which was a ridiculous take). Everything he said was pretty measured.
DJ impressed me personally on that deep out to the short sideline, the arm strength looked a tick above average. I'm done worrying about his arm strength to the sidelines unless he gets a shoulder injury. The ball placement was tremendous as well, better than advertised. It's good to see a slant route thrown exactly where it needs to be after years of Eli. This is where the game is evolving. YAC YAC YAC!
I watched the tape and then read the thread and Im kind of surprised.
My take was that the endless repetitive section about Carter wiping the slate clean after the draft and when a high draft pick enters the NFL ( "because NFL coaches can put some people into situations where they succeed") was the most interesting part of the thread
To me, its Carter starting the pivot re-positioning of his takes on DG, Barkley and Jones.
'For the draft I give hot takes. When it comes to the NFL games then im a pure tell it like it is analyst'
Very entertaining. Reminded me of a Presidential candidate who went to the wings of their party to win primaries and now desperately repositioning as a "centrist"
Not sure whose scrambling dance is funniest to watch ...certain media guys or certain posters.
All of them assume we are stupid and forget what they said ( and said many times).
RE: I don't know that Chris Carter is entirely wrong Â
first off he talked about how Daniel Jones did a good job and made good throws.
He does point out that the Giants left their first team o-line in with Jones against the Jets backup defenders. He says this was smart of the Giants to help Jones have success.
Quinnen Williams is likely already the Jets best defensive lineman who was in. They had 4 other first team defenders in at the time.
Quote:
He then talks about the touchdown pass. He points out that Jones locked in on his target from the snap until the throw. Carter says a starting NFL safety is going to pick up on that which the Jets safety didn't.
Predefined reads as a huge part of successful NFL offenses today. McVay runs a ton of them, Shurmur too (and road them to a monster season from Case Keenum two years ago). To execute that play well he has to be decisive, quick and put the ball in the perfect spot with enough juice so the DB doesn't have much time to react. They're playing cover 2 and the DB gets caught watching the flat which is when Jones releases it. If the ball hangs in the air the DB would've picked it but it was a textbook throw.
Quote:
He then points out that the Jets safety put himself in bad position to make a play on the TD pass. He might be right, he might be wrong, but it's possible a NFL caliber starting safety would have made a play on the ball. The Jets safety did get turned around and had his back to the play.
Yes he got caught peaking at the flat as mentioned above but he's in the right position. They're playing Cover 2 and the corner-flat combo is a popular play call to attack it.
Bill2.....is someone not allowed to change their minds? Â
DJ was a touch prospect to evaluate because of the talent level at Duke. Just like Eli was tough to evaluate when DG came in because the offensive line was so bad. I think DG thought he wasn't going to have to worry about the QB position for a while when he accepted the job.
gave a very fair assessment of what he saw. Thursday night, my son said the exact same thing about the TD throw. Even if you disagree, why in the world would you call him a douche. His overall comments on the night for DJ were appropriately critical and did not diminish what DJ accomplished.
I'm going to assume that you didn't hear his comments calling the Giants a racist organization who wouldn't have taken Jones if he was African American because that's why everyone is calling him a douche...
Strahan....the safety got caught because he was anticipating an Â
I watched the tape and then read the thread and Im kind of surprised.
My take was that the endless repetitive section about Carter wiping the slate clean after the draft and when a high draft pick enters the NFL ( "because NFL coaches can put some people into situations where they succeed") was the most interesting part of the thread
To me, its Carter starting the pivot re-positioning of his takes on DG, Barkley and Jones.
'For the draft I give hot takes. When it comes to the NFL games then im a pure tell it like it is analyst'
Very entertaining. Reminded me of a Presidential candidate who went to the wings of their party to win primaries and now desperately repositioning as a "centrist"
Not sure whose scrambling dance is funniest to watch ...certain media guys or certain posters.
All of them assume we are stupid and forget what they said ( and said many times).
you guys take this stuff way too seriously
who cares what he said at the draft. He either has a point here or he doesn't. No one is keeping score for the analysis. That would be a pretty terrible sport.
Personally I think its a shitty take. Its stupid to measure a play against how the defense should have defended it.
say on the MadDog radio that "...Jones completed the TD pass against an undrafted rookie corner from Akron and a rookie safety...and if Jamaal Adams is in the game he easily picks off that pass..."
I'm only adding this to offset the anti-Carter brigade.
So now that's two NFL sources who thought Jones got away with one - Mangini and Orlavsky.
say on the MadDog radio that "...Jones completed the TD pass against an undrafted rookie corner from Akron and a rookie safety...and if Jamaal Adams is in the game he easily picks off that pass..."
I'm only adding this to offset the anti-Carter brigade.
So now that's two NFL sources who thought Jones got away with one - Mangini and Orlavsky.
This is so ridiculous. You can only throw against who you are going against. He put the ball in a place where that safety wasn't getting it. If the safety reacts better maybe DJ puts it over the ball higher. Maybe he looks backside, maybe he pulls down and run.
Its like hey look at this shitty coverage, if the coverage was good Â
This is so ridiculous. You can only throw against who you are going against. He put the ball in a place where that safety wasn't getting it. If the safety reacts better maybe DJ puts it over the ball higher. Maybe he looks backside, maybe he pulls down and run.
I'm not sure it's ridiculous. In my view, I think we should be nuanced in how we evaluate the preseason, which I know you know...
Orlavsky had this incredible stat. I might quote it wrong, but he said the back-up QBs who have played in games so far have completed over 70% of their passes with 13TDs and 3 INTs. Suggesting, of course, that what we are saying need to be carefully measured against the competition on the field.
RE: Strahan....the safety got caught because he was anticipating an Â
inbreaking route. Trying to make a play probably to get noticed. Or it was a good route, hard to tell from the camera angle.
Yeah, it's hard to tell without the all-22 but he's coached to stay in his back peddle as long as he can to watch the TE, WR and QB. The inroute on that play from the WR is also a common call so it wouldn't be a surprise if that's what he was guessing at. Either way, it all happens so fast that you'd need to be an Earl Thomas or Honeybadger to change direction fast enough and make that play on Fowler in which case, I highly doubt that's the play call Shurmur is going with...
Even as CC pointed out, they ran a high-low on the safety. The play assumes one of those guys will be open depending on the CB play, and the QB hits him. So Jones was looking at that area the whole time yes, because that is what he is supposed to do. Watch both players and see what happens. The CB pulled up leaving the end zone guy 1-on-1, so this is where Jones threw. He picked the right guy regardless of which way the DB was looking.
This is so ridiculous. You can only throw against who you are going against. He put the ball in a place where that safety wasn't getting it. If the safety reacts better maybe DJ puts it over the ball higher. Maybe he looks backside, maybe he pulls down and run.
I'm not sure it's ridiculous. In my view, I think we should be nuanced in how we evaluate the preseason, which I know you know...
Orlavsky had this incredible stat. I might quote it wrong, but he said the back-up QBs who have played in games so far have completed over 70% of their passes with 13TDs and 3 INTs. Suggesting, of course, that what we are saying need to be carefully measured against the competition on the field.
You're either quoting it wrong or it's false because it doesn't take much digging to find more than 3 ints thrown by 2nd string qbs in the preseason thus far. Hell, that's Haskins + Rosen combine...
BW....I agree and I think the stats are meaningless Â
I'm judging on what he is showing me. On the flip side of that I heard Darnold played great. I'd completely disagree. He should of thrown a pick that could of easily went the other way in the flat. Darnold, so far, is making the same type of mistakes he was making at USC and last year, that is type of shit I'd expect my QB to clean up in year 2.
RE: BW....I agree and I think the stats are meaningless Â
I'm judging on what he is showing me. On the flip side of that I heard Darnold played great. I'd completely disagree. He should of thrown a pick that could of easily went the other way in the flat. Darnold, so far, is making the same type of mistakes he was making at USC and last year, that is type of shit I'd expect my QB to clean up in year 2.
Funny that you mentioned that about Darnold. I sort of had the same reaction. I still saw some poor footwork/mild happy feet that would bother me as a Jets fan.
Gase still has work to do with his prized pupil...
RE: RE: RE: RE: FWIW...I just heard Dan Orlavsky... Â
You're either quoting it wrong or it's false because it doesn't take much digging to find more than 3 ints thrown by 2nd string qbs in the preseason thus far. Hell, that's Haskins + Rosen combine...
I'll see if I can figure that specific behind what DO said. He said it with a lot of confidence - # of passes/# of completions/etc.
Here is the way I looked at it then and just as much now:
None of these folks is really comfortable saying: " Cant tell yet"
Or in fairness, their job pushes them to make controversial statements with little evidence.
That's not true of us on BBI
Honestly, the difference between executing that string of plays in the first pre-season and playoff speed good defenses has left many a prospect stranded ( and many a very good QB needing more than one chance to tweak and speed their game and recognition skills).
Its great start. That's great for us. Layering more meaning pro and con is too often trying to keep a consistent posture with ones prior statements ( especially if its media.)
All the data at this time is up for wide interpretation. Watching people torturing the data into confessing their first emotion ( and that's what a first take is) can be entertaining. Witness Rameses Barden or Washington or or or or.
Anyone who works in even a mid size company sees the same everyday. Every chart drives to the upper right corner. Starting next year.
Its just hard to be patient. And its hard to be uncertain for long without trying to hard to fill in the pixels into a clear picture
I actually agreed with what Carter said about the TD in the end zone.. Â
and I said it in the game thread last night. The ball was thrown accurately, but the DB was in perfect position.. he just did not have the ball awareness. Should have been intercepted.
RE: I actually agreed with what Carter said about the TD in the end zone.. Â
and I said it in the game thread last night. The ball was thrown accurately, but the DB was in perfect position.. he just did not have the ball awareness. Should have been intercepted.
He didn't have the outside edge where the ball was thrown.
Think though. People arguing over a preseason throw by a rookie QB because a dingleberry can't get over a white guy was drafted over Haskins like he is the next Marino.
RE: RE: RE: RE: FWIW...I just heard Dan Orlavsky... Â
You're either quoting it wrong or it's false because it doesn't take much digging to find more than 3 ints thrown by 2nd string qbs in the preseason thus far. Hell, that's Haskins + Rosen combine...
I re-listened to Orlavsky interview. He said for the back-up QBs who played Thursday night, they were a combined 236 for 329, 13TDs and 3 INTs. Said most of the back-ups QBs played mostly with starters and the defenses were mostly 2nd string. Not sure how to verify that.
One thing I omitted - Orlavsky said the Jets has a rookie corner and two rookie safeties on the TD play...one rookie from Akron, one from Arkansas..
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: FWIW...I just heard Dan Orlavsky... Â
You're either quoting it wrong or it's false because it doesn't take much digging to find more than 3 ints thrown by 2nd string qbs in the preseason thus far. Hell, that's Haskins + Rosen combine...
I re-listened to Orlavsky interview. He said for the back-up QBs who played Thursday night, they were a combined 236 for 329, 13TDs and 3 INTs. Said most of the back-ups QBs played mostly with starters and the defenses were mostly 2nd string. Not sure how to verify that.
One thing I omitted - Orlavsky said the Jets has a rookie corner and two rookie safeties on the TD play...one rookie from Akron, one from Arkansas..
Honestly if you're not interested more in being right than the Giants being good why would you try so fucking hard to discredit Jones. Are you just a miserable person who wants to troll this site?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: FWIW...I just heard Dan Orlavsky... Â
You're either quoting it wrong or it's false because it doesn't take much digging to find more than 3 ints thrown by 2nd string qbs in the preseason thus far. Hell, that's Haskins + Rosen combine...
I re-listened to Orlavsky interview. He said for the back-up QBs who played Thursday night, they were a combined 236 for 329, 13TDs and 3 INTs. Said most of the back-ups QBs played mostly with starters and the defenses were mostly 2nd string. Not sure how to verify that.
One thing I omitted - Orlavsky said the Jets has a rookie corner and two rookie safeties on the TD play...one rookie from Akron, one from Arkansas..
Grier, Haskins and Rosen had a combined 4 interceptions on Thursday night off the top of my head.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: FWIW...I just heard Dan Orlavsky... Â
Honestly if you're not interested more in being right than the Giants being good why would you try so fucking hard to discredit Jones. Are you just a miserable person who wants to troll this site?
This is largely a debate site. I heard interesting commentary the last two days about the Jones TD. It caught my attention because it was something I didn't notice or even think about. So I posted it. If you have a hard time dealing with it, that's on you.
I do like to kick it around and have lively debate, but this topic was completely nefarious. Frankly, I think the problem is Carter as the messenger. Not me. And too many people unable to get past Carter's pre-draft commentary.
As for the my motives to troll, be right, etc, I simply have nothing to add. It's a boring, baseless take.
I thought I heard Shurmur intimate that while the play worked it was not necessarily where the ball should have gone given the risk/reward. As said here the TE was open and an easier play.
Regarding Carter. He really is an idiot. Calling the Giants racist when the man who ran the Giants along with his right hand man for years are both African American? Carter has had it in for the Giants since his playing days. Remember his comments about Sehorn when he got his large contract?
Same guy who advised NFL players in training camp sessions that the most important thing when going out as a group is to have a designated Fall Guy in the event trouble breaks out. Didn't see him for awhile after that in NFL advisory sessions.
Stupid is as stupid does.
Quote:
gave a very fair assessment of what he saw. Thursday night, my son said the exact same thing about the TD throw. Even if you disagree, why in the world would you call him a douche. His overall comments on the night for DJ were appropriately critical and did not diminish what DJ accomplished.
I'm going to assume that you didn't hear his comments calling the Giants a racist organization who wouldn't have taken Jones if he was African American because that's why everyone is calling him a douche...
I thought I heard Shurmur intimate that while the play worked it was not necessarily where the ball should have gone given the risk/reward. As said here the TE was open and an easier play.
Regarding Carter. He really is an idiot. Calling the Giants racist when the man who ran the Giants along with his right hand man for years are both African American? Carter has had it in for the Giants since his playing days. Remember his comments about Sehorn when he got his large contract?
Same guy who advised NFL players in training camp sessions that the most important thing when going out as a group is to have a designated Fall Guy in the event trouble breaks out. Didn't see him for awhile after that in NFL advisory sessions.
Stupid is as stupid does.
Quote:
gave a very fair assessment of what he saw. Thursday night, my son said the exact same thing about the TD throw. Even if you disagree, why in the world would you call him a douche. His overall comments on the night for DJ were appropriately critical and did not diminish what DJ accomplished.
I'm going to assume that you didn't hear his comments calling the Giants a racist organization who wouldn't have taken Jones if he was African American because that's why everyone is calling him a douche...
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: FWIW...I just heard Dan Orlavsky... Â
Honestly if you're not interested more in being right than the Giants being good why would you try so fucking hard to discredit Jones. Are you just a miserable person who wants to troll this site?
This is largely a debate site. I heard interesting commentary the last two days about the Jones TD. It caught my attention because it was something I didn't notice or even think about. So I posted it. If you have a hard time dealing with it, that's on you.
I do like to kick it around and have lively debate, but this topic was completely nefarious. Frankly, I think the problem is Carter as the messenger. Not me. And too many people unable to get past Carter's pre-draft commentary.
As for the my motives to troll, be right, etc, I simply have nothing to add. It's a boring, baseless take.
You keep bringing up people to corroborate the point. If your intent was just debate why would you try so hard to corroborate this point?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: FWIW...I just heard Dan Orlavsky... Â
Grier, Haskins and Rosen had a combined 4 interceptions on Thursday night off the top of my head.
Is Grier the actual back-up?
I assumed he meant the 2nd qb to come into the game. It seems like he’s twisting stats to fit a narrative. I didn’t listen to him so i don’t know what that narrative is but for example, Joe Webb threw 2 interceptions Thursday night and was the only qb on Houston that took a snap. McCarron is listed as their #2 but is out for the preseason and one would think unlikely then to make the team.
Take everything Orlovsky says with a grain of salt....he is trying to Â
be the next hot take superstar and those guys have hotter takes than the Stephen A's, Kellermans, and Baylesses of the world. Sounds like he was cherry picking his data as far as definition of backup QB is.
Bill...you are preaching to the choir...drives me nuts all this short Â
You're either quoting it wrong or it's false because it doesn't take much digging to find more than 3 ints thrown by 2nd string qbs in the preseason thus far. Hell, that's Haskins + Rosen combine...
I re-listened to Orlavsky interview. He said for the back-up QBs who played Thursday night, they were a combined 236 for 329, 13TDs and 3 INTs. Said most of the back-ups QBs played mostly with starters and the defenses were mostly 2nd string. Not sure how to verify that.
One thing I omitted - Orlavsky said the Jets has a rookie corner and two rookie safeties on the TD play...one rookie from Akron, one from Arkansas..
He was wrong. You have two thrown by Haskins plus one by Ballentine and one by Carlock. That's four on Thursday night in just two games. There were others as well.
At the end of the video, CC says that he could see why he was a first-round pick.
Good point. Carter said that now that Jones in actually in the league he will only evaluate what he sees and not go back to his pre-draft analysis of Jones's play at Duke.
I wonder if he will still think DJ is white.
140+ posts debating whether a TD WOULD have been intercepted Â
Honestly if you're not interested more in being right than the Giants being good why would you try so fucking hard to discredit Jones. Are you just a miserable person who wants to troll this site?
This is largely a debate site. I heard interesting commentary the last two days about the Jones TD. It caught my attention because it was something I didn't notice or even think about. So I posted it. If you have a hard time dealing with it, that's on you.
I do like to kick it around and have lively debate, but this topic was completely nefarious. Frankly, I think the problem is Carter as the messenger. Not me. And too many people unable to get past Carter's pre-draft commentary.
As for the my motives to troll, be right, etc, I simply have nothing to add. It's a boring, baseless take.
You keep bringing up people to corroborate the point. If your intent was just debate why would you try so hard to corroborate this point?
ditto but ten times more to you -- with you throwing darts about people who complain suggesting they want the team to fail or miserable. It borders on lunacy all because poor little you feels like posters have to fit perfectly in how you view things.
this now and I wonder why CC brings up the safety not being an NFL player? He didn't mention the "quality" of players that made the INTs on Haskins. He didn't mention the poor footwork of Haskins on the wheel route...He also says the Giants gave him much easier looks than the other two. Is it a bad thing that a coach decided to put his QB in a position that will be successful?
Jones is going to take his licks as being over drafted, but lets not start making excuses b/c you don't like him
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: FWIW...I just heard Dan Orlavsky... Â
Grier, Haskins and Rosen had a combined 4 interceptions on Thursday night off the top of my head.
Is Grier the actual back-up?
I assumed he meant the 2nd qb to come into the game. It seems like he’s twisting stats to fit a narrative. I didn’t listen to him so i don’t know what that narrative is but for example, Joe Webb threw 2 interceptions Thursday night and was the only qb on Houston that took a snap. McCarron is listed as their #2 but is out for the preseason and one would think unlikely then to make the team.
Maybe. I'll dig into it later. DOrlo did specifically say Thursday night.
And for Haskins it was especially undeserving. Whereas he intentionally muted or worse Jones’ positives. The racial aspect to this is impossible to ignore.
The bottom line is, at least for this one night, Jones was the best of the three QBs. And nobody on the broadcast would say it.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: FWIW...I just heard Dan Orlavsky... Â
...his take on the TD pass is farcical. It would have taken a very good play to maneuver from the receivers back shoulder to cause an incompletion with that balls trajectory without triggering a PI call. Interception? I just don't think so.
RE: I think it’s because Cc pumped up the other two Â
And for Haskins it was especially undeserving. Whereas he intentionally muted or worse Jones’ positives. The racial aspect to this is impossible to ignore.
The bottom line is, at least for this one night, Jones was the best of the three QBs. And nobody on the broadcast would say it.
too damn sensitive here. Who cares if Carter didn't like the td throw. Maybe he's right but anyway he has a right to his opinion. does everything about jones have to be glowing?
Jones was good that game. Not amazing. Even Cosell said they gave Jones a simple job, and he executed it. everything was basically one read, scripted. it doesn't tell you that much.
but he passed the hurdle. so far so good. hopefully he keeps it up.
RE: RE: I finally decided to start watching this Â
Honestly if you're not interested more in being right than the Giants being good why would you try so fucking hard to discredit Jones. Are you just a miserable person who wants to troll this site?
This is largely a debate site. I heard interesting commentary the last two days about the Jones TD. It caught my attention because it was something I didn't notice or even think about. So I posted it. If you have a hard time dealing with it, that's on you.
I do like to kick it around and have lively debate, but this topic was completely nefarious. Frankly, I think the problem is Carter as the messenger. Not me. And too many people unable to get past Carter's pre-draft commentary.
As for the my motives to troll, be right, etc, I simply have nothing to add. It's a boring, baseless take.
You keep bringing up people to corroborate the point. If your intent was just debate why would you try so hard to corroborate this point?
ditto but ten times more to you -- with you throwing darts about people who complain suggesting they want the team to fail or miserable. It borders on lunacy all because poor little you feels like posters have to fit perfectly in how you view things.
God you're a miserable person. I'm glad I only know some of you on the internet.
RE: 140+ posts debating whether a TD WOULD have been intercepted Â
God you're a miserable person. I'm glad I only know some of you on the internet.
God more cliches and just plain ignorance from posters like you. Ofc anyone who complains about their team before season starts in which projected season is msot predicted at 6-10 during the year then they "must be a miserable person." So says the judgemental cheerleading fans like you.
God you're a miserable person. I'm glad I only know some of you on the internet.
God more cliches and just plain ignorance from posters like you. Ofc anyone who complains about their team before season starts in which projected season is msot predicted at 6-10 during the year then they "must be a miserable person." So says the judgemental cheerleading fans like you.
No, anyone that complains about their rookie QB who went 5 for 5, a TD, and a perfect passer rating is a miserable person.
God you're a miserable person. I'm glad I only know some of you on the internet.
God more cliches and just plain ignorance from posters like you. Ofc anyone who complains about their team before season starts in which projected season is msot predicted at 6-10 during the year then they "must be a miserable person." So says the judgemental cheerleading fans like you.
No, anyone that complains about their rookie QB who went 5 for 5, a TD, and a perfect passer rating is a miserable person.
Please provide the link where I complained about Brown on Thursday night? All my posts said he was good. But keep acting like a complete nutjob and invent things I said but didn't. That's what you cheerleading posters tend to do.
or has CC been relegated to a second-rate cable TV show? I mean, who are the other two "analysts" on the set with him? And the set itself looks like a decent high school production.
RE: RE: I actually agreed with what Carter said about the TD in the end zone.. Â
He didn't have the outside edge where the ball was thrown.
Think though. People arguing over a preseason throw by a rookie QB because a dingleberry can't get over a white guy was drafted over Haskins like he is the next Marino.
Sorry brother... but that DB was in perfect position to intercept the ball. I played back there long enough to know. Not only that, it would have been an easy INT too. The guy was just doing his best Eli Apple impersonation.
This does not mean that Jones did not have a nice drive. He absolutely did. I am exited about seeing more of him. You CAN be objective here and say he looked very good in his first NFL action. Huge difference between what we saw from him vs the first action from some of our prior QB draft picks. Saying one of his passes should have been intercepted is NOT shitting on the guy.
Finally, about your last comment... so you think Cris Carter is a racist?
He didn't have the outside edge where the ball was thrown.
Think though. People arguing over a preseason throw by a rookie QB because a dingleberry can't get over a white guy was drafted over Haskins like he is the next Marino.
Sorry brother... but that DB was in perfect position to intercept the ball. I played back there long enough to know. Not only that, it would have been an easy INT too. The guy was just doing his best Eli Apple impersonation.
This does not mean that Jones did not have a nice drive. He absolutely did. I am exited about seeing more of him. You CAN be objective here and say he looked very good in his first NFL action. Huge difference between what we saw from him vs the first action from some of our prior QB draft picks. Saying one of his passes should have been intercepted is NOT shitting on the guy.
Finally, about your last comment... so you think Cris Carter is a racist?
There was an article in the USA Today on Friday with a snippet of an interview with the DB on that play. He was very complimentary of Jones and said that it was a perfect throw that he put in a place only his receiver could get to it. He never once indicated that he should have intercepted the ball.
We can argue about this all day long from our couches but the defender on the play seemingly disagrees with your assessment that it was an easy interception
RE: RE: RE: RE: I actually agreed with what Carter said about the TD in the end zone.. Â
There was an article in the USA Today on Friday with a snippet of an interview with the DB on that play. He was very complimentary of Jones and said that it was a perfect throw that he put in a place only his receiver could get to it. He never once indicated that he should have intercepted the ball.
We can argue about this all day long from our couches but the defender on the play seemingly disagrees with your assessment that it was an easy interception
We can disagree on that. Really is a good thing to have a healthy debate here.
That DB is the last guy to comment on whether he could have intercepted the pass... Why? because he was the only person (when you count the other players, coaches, pfficials, fans, and people watching on TV) who did not see the ball from the moment it left Jone's hand until the point where our WR caught it.
He really is the only one (besides people who were not at the game or watching the game) who did not see the pass. The ball almost hit the defender... that is how close it was to him. Watch the replay in the link below and hit the pause button at the appropriate time and see.
Really funny when you think about it that way. What did you expect the guy to say? yeah I should have had it and I hope I don't get cut tomorrow? watch it again - ( New Window )
RE: RE: RE: I actually agreed with what Carter said about the TD in the end zone.. Â
He didn't have the outside edge where the ball was thrown.
Think though. People arguing over a preseason throw by a rookie QB because a dingleberry can't get over a white guy was drafted over Haskins like he is the next Marino.
Sorry brother... but that DB was in perfect position to intercept the ball. I played back there long enough to know. Not only that, it would have been an easy INT too. The guy was just doing his best Eli Apple impersonation.
This does not mean that Jones did not have a nice drive. He absolutely did. I am exited about seeing more of him. You CAN be objective here and say he looked very good in his first NFL action. Huge difference between what we saw from him vs the first action from some of our prior QB draft picks. Saying one of his passes should have been intercepted is NOT shitting on the guy.
Finally, about your last comment... so you think Cris Carter is a racist?
Cris Carter was not alone in maintaining that the Giants passed on Haskins because he was black, and chose Daniel Jones because he was essentially an Eli clone, white, soft-spoken, etc. Does that make Carter a racist? I don't think so. But I do think it makes him a pretty poor analyst, with an obvious bias and a narrative he seems intent on pushing.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I actually agreed with what Carter said about the TD in the end zone.. Â
There was an article in the USA Today on Friday with a snippet of an interview with the DB on that play. He was very complimentary of Jones and said that it was a perfect throw that he put in a place only his receiver could get to it. He never once indicated that he should have intercepted the ball.
We can argue about this all day long from our couches but the defender on the play seemingly disagrees with your assessment that it was an easy interception
We can disagree on that. Really is a good thing to have a healthy debate here.
That DB is the last guy to comment on whether he could have intercepted the pass... Why? because he was the only person (when you count the other players, coaches, pfficials, fans, and people watching on TV) who did not see the ball from the moment it left Jone's hand until the point where our WR caught it.
He really is the only one (besides people who were not at the game or watching the game) who did not see the pass. The ball almost hit the defender... that is how close it was to him. Watch the replay in the link below and hit the pause button at the appropriate time and see.
Really funny when you think about it that way. What did you expect the guy to say? yeah I should have had it and I hope I don't get cut tomorrow? watch it again - ( New Window )
There is nothing wrong with admitting he missed a play or he should have played it better. He didn't say that. Peppers said he missed an interception. Ballentine admitted he needed to correct his technique on the pass interference. Daniel Jones admitted he needed to correct some things like motioning the tight end.
The defensive back was trailing the wide receiver and was playing catch up. He would have to be one hell of an athlete to stop on a dime, twist his body around and be in position to play the ball.
I honestly can not recall so much being made of one play. We can play the what if game with every player on almost every player. Daniel jones made a great pass to the end zone and the wide receiver caught it...end of story
You can put the argument aside that he hates the Giants and just look at both of his arguments. The Giants selected Jones because he is white, and if another safety was in the game that TD surely would have been intercepted. What do both arguments have in common? They consider only one factor in a multi-factor situation.
Carter may not be biased, but what he does is take a very complex topic and just pick one portion of it and focus only on that. It’s flawed and useless for people trying to understand, but it is entertaining for people looking to be entertained.
If you like what Carter brings that’s fine. You are entertained and that is his goal. His hot takes just don’t belong in an actual discussion because that isn’t what he is doing.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I actually agreed with what Carter said about the TD in the end zone.. Â
He didn't have the outside edge where the ball was thrown.
Think though. People arguing over a preseason throw by a rookie QB because a dingleberry can't get over a white guy was drafted over Haskins like he is the next Marino.
Sorry brother... but that DB was in perfect position to intercept the ball. I played back there long enough to know. Not only that, it would have been an easy INT too. The guy was just doing his best Eli Apple impersonation.
This does not mean that Jones did not have a nice drive. He absolutely did. I am exited about seeing more of him. You CAN be objective here and say he looked very good in his first NFL action. Huge difference between what we saw from him vs the first action from some of our prior QB draft picks. Saying one of his passes should have been intercepted is NOT shitting on the guy.
Finally, about your last comment... so you think Cris Carter is a racist?
Cris Carter was not alone in maintaining that the Giants passed on Haskins because he was black, and chose Daniel Jones because he was essentially an Eli clone, white, soft-spoken, etc. Does that make Carter a racist? I don't think so. But I do think it makes him a pretty poor analyst, with an obvious bias and a narrative he seems intent on pushing.
FWIW, I actually do think CC is a racist.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I actually agreed with what Carter said about the TD in the end zone.. Â
There's at least one poster, it might be Sonic Youth, who has actually said that due to institutional racism, that blacks cannot by definition be racist.
There's at least one poster, it might be Sonic Youth, who has actually said that due to institutional racism, that blacks cannot by definition be racist.
FYI, there's a significant subset of the population that believes this. Mostly white people in their 20s and 30s that live on the coasts.
Carter is and always has been severly biased against the Giants, going back to the 41-0 rout. He can't help it, and the programing managers are ultimately responsible for permitting this bias while curtailing others. But they think thats where they get the best ratings....
It's similar to Cawherd and Mike Greenberg
Well, after watching that debacle, I think we should get Â
Daniel fitted for his gold jacket. The next time Carter is right about something,will be the first time he's right.If they did football cards of announcers,his position would be listed as "narcissist'!
go back to the main question - why is the throw being scrutinized so closely, and why are assumptions and comments being made that it should have been picked off? When is the last time a player was criticized for a TD pass that was accurate and not contended by the defender?
When Landon Collins dropped the INT against the Pats, was that a criticism of Brady? No. It was about Collins sucking at securing the ball.
Here - a defender didn't even locate the ball, which is exactly the type of scenario a QB takes advantage of.
during the season, we will see Daniel Jones throw an interception, and the interception may even be made at the expense of a throw that's very similar to one he completed without incident during the preseason.
during the season, we will see Daniel Jones throw an interception, and the interception may even be made at the expense of a throw that's very similar to one he completed without incident during the preseason.
I'm sure if the interception wouldn't be his fault, Cris Carter and bw will talk about it. /Sarcasm
Is part of the conversation here. How is it a negative against Jones?
That's the problem - the typical problem, actually - around here. The play has been misconstrued as a ding against Jones. But's not.
It's an analysis of the play, and how the success of the play, while good to see, would very likely not have been a TD/completion in a real NFL game. Just context. But the "how dare you crowd" can't seem to handle that, so they look for ways to kill the messenger. In this case, I guess Carter is a racist and still resents the blowout in the 2000 NFC CG.
Is part of the conversation here. How is it a negative against Jones?
That's the problem - the typical problem, actually - around here. The play has been misconstrued as a ding against Jones. But's not.
It's an analysis of the play, and how the success of the play, while good to see, would very likely not have been a TD/completion in a real NFL game. Just context. But the "how dare you crowd" can't seem to handle that, so they look for ways to kill the messenger. In this case, I guess Carter is a racist and still resents the blowout in the 2000 NFC CG.
I think, objectively, Jones received much more scorn from CC for throwing his TD pass, than Haskins did for throwing his. The difference being, that Jones threw his TD pass to his own team.
Exactly. I'm really not sure why Carter's comment is controversial or inflammatory.
Well, since he isn't doing the same exercise for the other QB's - do you think that might have something to do with it??
Did he miss a glaring opportunity to? I'm not sure if another rookie QB threw a similar pass that is being lauded but may have bee frisky vs a starter.
the safety just took a bad angle and was very slow to react. It was the action of a rookie. Both safeties on the play were rookies, and the corner who sunk too low was also a rookie.
Forget the interception prediction. At the very least, with a competent, seasoned S, the play should have easily been broken up.
the safety just took a bad angle and was very slow to react. It was the action of a rookie. Both safeties on the play were rookies, and the corner who sunk too low was also a rookie.
Forget the interception prediction. At the very least, with a competent, seasoned S, the play should have easily been broken up.
The safety gambled on that play trying to make a pick. DJ made him pay.
the safety just took a bad angle and was very slow to react. It was the action of a rookie. Both safeties on the play were rookies, and the corner who sunk too low was also a rookie.
Forget the interception prediction. At the very least, with a competent, seasoned S, the play should have easily been broken up.
What?? You do realize the safety was in decent coverage but didn't look back for the ball. It isn't like a seasoned safety was going to be perched back there waiting.
How many times are TD passes scrutinized to the point of hypotheticals and what could have beens?
This is a bit unique though. This wasn't a gratuitous discussion that occurred in a vacuum... it was mentioned in the course of discussing how a rookie QB looked, and seemed to be little more than mentioning he might want to exercise caution against the likes of Jamal Adams.
It isn't a war crime.
RE: RE: It seems to me it's reasonable to conclude... Â
What?? You do realize the safety was in decent coverage but didn't look back for the ball. It isn't like a seasoned safety was going to be perched back there waiting.
No, I don't realize that at all. How can Ramirez be in "decent coverage" when's he's actually trailing the route? He's not looking back because he's beaten, and desperately trying to get back to save the play.
If you can actually seriously say Jamaal Adams couldn't read that route combination in his sleep, and make a better play than an undrafted rookie from Arkansas, than I regret to say the wrong poster has been called Matt in Syracuse...
What?? You do realize the safety was in decent coverage but didn't look back for the ball. It isn't like a seasoned safety was going to be perched back there waiting.
No, I don't realize that at all. How can Ramirez be in "decent coverage" when's he's actually trailing the route? He's not looking back because he's beaten, and desperately trying to get back to save the play.
If you can actually seriously say Jamaal Adams couldn't read that route combination in his sleep, and make a better play than an undrafted rookie from Arkansas, than I regret to say the wrong poster has been called Matt in Syracuse..
would he have thrown it if the safety was in great position?
Is part of the conversation here. How is it a negative against Jones?
That's the problem - the typical problem, actually - around here. The play has been misconstrued as a ding against Jones. But's not.
It's an analysis of the play, and how the success of the play, while good to see, would very likely not have been a TD/completion in a real NFL game. Just context. But the "how dare you crowd" can't seem to handle that, so they look for ways to kill the messenger. In this case, I guess Carter is a racist and still resents the blowout in the 2000 NFC CG.
I think, objectively, Jones received much more scorn from CC for throwing his TD pass, than Haskins did for throwing his. The difference being, that Jones threw his TD pass to his own team.
Well, one of the differences, anyway.
I hadn't watched him deliver his comments about Haskins until now... while he offered some compliments, he also basically asserted that if Haskins doesn't learn to protect the ball, his teammates will hate him.
think the optimal coverage is for the safety to be in the back of the end zone facing the ball?
C'mon - tghis has been really put unecessarily under the microscope
I agree with one part - this has gotten way too deep in the weeds.
In all the irrational exuberance, I thought it would be interesting to share views I didn’t expect to hear - that the TD pass may have been less about Jones and more about poor D. And when I heard that from four different sources, it seemed reasonable, especially the more I looked at it...
RE: Only Giants fans would ruin a 5 for 5 and a TD debut Â
Incredible the amount of gymnastics certain people here need to do to find ways to discredit what should have been an open-and-shut, encouraging first performance for Jones.
I shudder to think what some of you guys are going to be like when he throws a fucking incompletion against the Bears on Friday. Or worse... an interception.
He was better than anyone here assumed he was going to be in game 1. We don't need to turn it into anything more than that. Really.
All anyone should want to see now is him build on that and continue to make progress each week. There's really no need to micro-analyze every breath he took on the field so that we can find reasons to throw cold water all over it.
Oh, I get it.... you're the better "fan" because you pose as the "realist" who doesn't drink the kool-aid and is skeptical of everything.
That's a hoot.
It's not a question of not drinking the kool-aid or even skepticism. It's flat out, ever-present, unflinching, "they suck" about every single thing Giants.
And please see our charter on what's required to be a fan.
You openly admit that you enjoy shitting on the Giants and management when they are losing. yet when they had their run years ago, you were nowhere to be seen.
You do only have 1 view. Its boring. Its tiresome.
The throw was a great one. If the defender is trailing and not looking, then you throw it 10x out of 10. You can make the case its the same as throwing a back shoulder throw in the end zone. Or underthrowing a deep ball to force a PI.
Oh, I get it.... you're the better "fan" because you pose as the "realist" who doesn't drink the kool-aid and is skeptical of everything.
That's a hoot.
It's not a question of not drinking the kool-aid or even skepticism. It's flat out, ever-present, unflinching, "they suck" about every single thing Giants.
And, it's 100% schtick.
Of course. It's why there was no bw to be found when the Giants were winning Super Bowls.
Some posters have no ammo if they can't criticize and complain.
You openly admit that you enjoy shitting on the Giants and management when they are losing. yet when they had their run years ago, you were nowhere to be seen.
I do? Now, posters have tried to put those words in my mouth, but I’ve never said any of that. I’ve written how much I enjoyed the Camelot Era of Giants football - ‘84 to ‘ 90 - and how I long for those days and consistency. And how much I disapprove of the way Jints Central conducts football business. They are responsible for this new dark age...
As for my hiatus, I’ve explained that. And it absolutely zero to do with winning SBs. Purely coincidental.
go back to the main question - why is the throw being scrutinized so closely, and why are assumptions and comments being made that it should have been picked off? When is the last time a player was criticized for a TD pass that was accurate and not contended by the defender?
When Landon Collins dropped the INT against the Pats, was that a criticism of Brady? No. It was about Collins sucking at securing the ball.
Here - a defender didn't even locate the ball, which is exactly the type of scenario a QB takes advantage of.
I agree with everything you say in this post and agree with what is implied by the question. It points to obvious bias. It feels like a number of people in the media are waiting to deliver their I told you so's. When the exact opposite of what they wanted to happen happened they all threw fits and made pronouncements that exposed their bias.
You openly admit that you enjoy shitting on the Giants and management when they are losing. yet when they had their run years ago, you were nowhere to be seen.
I do? Now, posters have tried to put those words in my mouth, but I’ve never said any of that. I’ve written how much I enjoyed the Camelot Era of Giants football - ‘84 to ‘ 90 - and how I long for those days and consistency. And how much I disapprove of the way Jints Central conducts football business. They are responsible for this new dark age...
As for my hiatus, I’ve explained that. And it absolutely zero to do with winning SBs. Purely coincidental.
Giant fans are easy to troll and you enjoy it. Someone married into our family that is exactly like you. I am familiar with your shtick.
Oh, I get it.... you're the better "fan" because you pose as the "realist" who doesn't drink the kool-aid and is skeptical of everything.
That's a hoot.
No, apparently you are. And your ilk. I never question a poster’s fandom. But I’m cool with that. I get your self-righteousness.
However, I’m never going to change trying to look at things through a different lens. If it’s thought provoking, and last time I checked this is a debate site, than I’m going for it...
I didn't think he said anything terribly outlandish. Maybe he has an agenda, but it seemed to me he was saying Pump your breaks on all the QBs because it's one series. Maybe there's an agenda underneath it, but in a vacuum, it just seemed like he was saying "There's some teachable moments, whether the players did well or poorly."
I think that the person who should feel the most disrespected is his co-host. Geez.
But that's why I don't watch shows like this. They're aimed at getting people riled up.
RE: BBI has its only little clique it seems like now Â
You do realize that Arc is one of the better posters in this site and is as even kee as they come?
You aren’t here to debate. You’re here to rule up posters like thegratefulhead said. Pretty sad if you ask me.
I like arc. Seems bright and thoughtful.
Rides the fence too much for my tastes, but a good read on most days.
Lol... well, anyone who doesn't dismiss any ounce of positivity will fall under that category for you.
I think it's easy to just be skeptical and dismissive at every turn. Your role here takes little effort. It's what radar did for years with slightly more tact. Wherever the consensus zigs, just... zag.
As long as you always stay on the opposite end of the majority, you'll always have people to argue with and you'll always stay occupied here. It wouldn't be fun for you if you actually gave Jints Central credit for anything or agreed with a majority take - so, you choose not to. You'd have no way to get your kicks here, you'd be bored, and you'd probably have nothing to do.
"Riding the fence" can also just be called trying to better understand an opposing viewpoint or consider that perhaps my own opinions could be incorrect - I find humility to be an important quality.
Beckham is a good example. I spent years pretty dug in on defending him. I insisted that his off field behavior was not worth all of the bellyaching and had little to no impact on his performance and was pretty vocal in opposing the posters who weren't fans of his. I didn't love certain things he did - but generally speaking, I felt like the talent outweighed the other stuff.
Well, when the smoke cleared, it seemed perhaps his presence was more of a negative than I had originally thought. And maybe it wasn't all just harmless. From a team perspective, his being here didn't seem to be helping anything.
The more that was revealed about things he said or did or how he handled himself, the more I felt silly for having bought into his good seed act in camp last year just so he'd get paid. I obviously didn't know all of the facts there, but I often dug my heels in on it anyway.
Tangent aside; the point is... I think there's often this misguided notion that there's something admirable about grasping onto an opinion and sticking to it no matter who piles on you or disagrees with you.
In some cases, that's all well and good. In others, it's being stubborn and not allowing yourself to view something objectively because being right becomes more important than being informed.
Daniel Jones has become the perfect example of this. In a performance that was nearly impossible to nitpick, many of those who didn't like Gettleman drafting him still found a way.
5 passes is all he threw. He completed all 5 and the last one went for a TD. And yet, pages worth of putting the defensive positioning under a microscope and dissecting every fraction of velocity the ball was thrown with ensued so that people could do mental gymnastics to find something to argue about.
There's nothing wrong with letting go of the seemingly inherent need to be right all the time. It would serve much of this board well. But I guess that would also eliminate a lot of the vitriol and day-long arguments that people seem to feed on here. Just my .02.
This is a great statement and I wish more people on BBI would act the same way.
Quote:
"Riding the fence" can also just be called trying to better understand an opposing viewpoint or consider that perhaps my own opinions could be incorrect - I find humility to be an important quality.
I really love you guys - "my role..." This is just brilliant. Yes, I interviewed with Eric, for "the role", and he decided I was the right man for the job. Now if I can only get Eric to pay. ;)
You actually have it backwards. It's much easier to play "your role". To be deferential and trust nearly everything this organization does.
I really struggle why more people don't actually have more curiosity the other way and ask, "Gee, does that really make sense here? Does that idea really fit?" Are they really looking at league trends? Are they studying how other rosters are assembled? Are the right mix of decision makers in place. Etc. You get the drill...
I have that curiosity (I do risk management for a living, so I have to always think about the downside...). And having been a fan for so long, and having a fairly good understanding of this team's history, I am much less trusting of the characters who run this organization.
Look, we all have our perspectives and history with the team. So that's where these splits likely occur.
I guess I have this history as being "negative" and people get pissed off when I start to raise doubt.
Like this Jones TD thing. I have mentioned several times prior, that I came away very impressed with his performance. But I listened to some other opinions, felt they were compelling (specifically about the TD pass), and decided to inject them into the conversation. Instead of listening, and giving the thought consideration, the usual suspects do what they do - default to their silly preconceived notions and miss the point(s)...Then this cacophony builds and the fun really starts... ;)
Hey, if you prefer the "BigBlueMonolithic" model, you're certainly not alone. There are a lot here that like wrapping themselves in that same echo chamber. I just don't and will continue to fill the responsibilities of my unpaid "role"... ;)
I would argue that you listened to the opinion (on DJ's TD) Â
with no regard to the context surrounding the commentary. Until people wanted to dissect it (and considering it was a 100% hypothetical), there really was no contrary thought at all, other than by a biased, likely racially motivated ESPN-head.
I love when people defend their position and say they try to look at different angles on why circumstances happen and try to get differing opinions on why I play worked/didnt work.
But if you try to explain why an INT or pass may not be Eli's - holy shit. You get called a member of EFC (bw's famous phrase), you are just making excuses for him, it's never Eli's fault, etc.... Even if a HOF says it wasnt his fault - you cant point that out without being ridiculed.
But I guess the "objective" posters are the ones who just pick and choose whats worth arguing over, I guess?
RE: I would argue that you listened to the opinion (on DJ's TD) Â
with no regard to the context surrounding the commentary. Until people wanted to dissect it (and considering it was a 100% hypothetical), there really was no contrary thought at all, other than by a biased, likely racially motivated ESPN-head.
This is getting like a circular error in Excel.
When I realized the civil rights crowd objected, I added other people who concluded the same thing as Carter. But they were summarily dismissed because they weren't interesting enough, or easy to attack - like Carter...
I don't prefer any "model" of thought - that's where we differ. Every topic is different. I don't just throw everything under one tidy blanked labeled 'Jints Central' and act like our front office is Area 51.
We're not dealing with extraterrestrial life or highly secretive material here - it's a football team. They make some decisions that make sense, they make some that don't.
You seem to be predisposed to assume every decision they make is the wrong one. Is it really that hard to just question everything a team does?
Skepticism takes little effort. Ask why and ask why again.
I also don't defer to everything the Giants do. I've been plenty critical when I've felt criticism was warranted. Read posts of mine from the 2017 season if you'd like. I was killing them and was crushing Reese's drafts after zero-yield after zero-yield.
I think the misconception or disconnect comes in that I don't like to go overboard with spur of the moment, instant reactions to things. I don't just assume a move is bad because it appears to be on the surface. I'll admit it may well be one - but in many cases, there's just no way to know that in that moment.
I was vocally opposed to drafting Daniel Jones at 6 because the sense I got was that we'd have been able to take him @ 17.
Well, as it turned out - based on several reports, that likely was not the case.
Rather than throw an absolute FIT over taking him @ 6, I gave it a minute to breathe and play out and was wiling to hear the reasoning behind it and give him a chance to play before burying him.
Was it the choice I'd have made there? At the time, honestly no. But that's why I'm sitting here and not in an NFL front office.
I get it... this is how you get your kicks. What fun would it be to be agreeable?
You'd get bored... and we can't have that!
Patience is, indeed a virtue. Just not on a message board, I suppose.
RE: Not that bw needs any help whatsoever, but you all sound ridiculous Â
how much back and forth there is about what constitutes a fan, I still can't understand what prompts there to be criticism of a TD pass by a rookie in a preseason game.
Not even that it exists, but how a pass thrown to a spot where the defender never even looks back to defend is somehow twisted to make it seem like a seasoned pro not only breaks up the pass, but likely intercepts it
You have to question the motivation behind the criticism. That isn't being a homer. It is being rational. Something that the "realists" continually miss.
Does it really impact anything?
Do you think Jints Central is paying attention and making decisions based on his analysis?
Do you think games are won or lost in the media?
If you don't like CC, the best thing you can do to make him go away is not pay attention to him. This constant bellyaching about the media is tiresome.
There are unlimited options for content out there, listen to the guys you think are informative and entertaining and ignore the rest.
Its funny how I told you there were certain posters who are besties and always appear to post in the same thread and support one another..... and as I said that... bw, googs, and ron posted within minutes of each other. Now ron is saying "jints central". It isnt coincidental.
I wonder sometimes if we have posters who are on the lines of mmiller/sg0058?
Oncce we start using each others phrases, then you can make fun of us. Again, it took MINUTES for all to respond to my initial statement to back each other up. Shocking, right?
I joked there was a bat signal between certain posters to show up when other certain posters posted.
Now, those certain posters are accusing the other certain posters of deploying their tactics.
Oh, the sweet irony...
Thats only because it made no sense back then as it does now. No one follows each other around and agrees with them and uses their sayings like the three stooges.
I know its bad form to go all open kimono, but if you think I didn't explicitly use that term knowing the reaction it would get you aren't paying attention.
A. If you watch the clip, Carter was very praise worthy of Jones’s performance last Thursday.
B. Carter said he’s willing to wipe the slate clean and now just evaluate Jones as a pro, and table his view of him as a prospect at Duke.
C. In order to confirm A and B, you need to watch the clip.
D. In order to watch the clip to get to A and B, you need to hover over the clip and left click on your mouse.
E. Always happy to help.
I know its bad form to go all open kimono, but if you think I didn't explicitly use that term knowing the reaction it would get you aren't paying attention.
Just having some fun with the tribalism on here
So if thats the case, my statement if you three following and backing up each other is true since you all responded within minutes? I mean how predictable was that?
Chris Carter called Dave Gettleman a racist for taking Daniel Jones over Haskins. Period. Point blank.
I don't care who you are, when you have a platform to reach a mass audience like Chris Carter does, that accusation is clearly irresponsible AT BEST.
Now he's going to double down on his agenda and slam the kid at every turn to continue to beat that drum?
The Giants organization, and fans, should be irate over this. Defending this creep in any way is unfathomable to me.
I'm not defending CC. I'm advocating ignoring him. Its the only real way to silence him. Giving him a bunch of extra clicks by linking his segment and complaining on an online forum isn't going to accomplish your goal.
A. If you watch the clip, Carter was very praise worthy of Jones’s performance last Thursday.
B. Carter said he’s willing to wipe the slate clean and now just evaluate Jones as a pro, and table his view of him as a prospect at Duke.
C. In order to confirm A and B, you need to watch the clip.
D. In order to watch the clip to get to A and B, you need to hover over the clip and left click on your mouse.
E. Always happy to help.
1. LOL, except for the "but it should have been intercepted". I mean its like the whole dinner experience was great, except the steak was overcooked.
2. Carter's willing to wipe the slate clean unless there is an example to create controversy on an innocent play to make his initial statement right. I mean he made excuses for Haskins and nitpicked Jones, hmmmm...
3. I did watch it.
I mean this nimrod called the Giants and DG racist. And we are going to listen to his nonsense view on a perfectly thrown ball for a TD.
And before you start huffing and puffing again. Any other "analyst" is over analyzing it too.
I know its bad form to go all open kimono, but if you think I didn't explicitly use that term knowing the reaction it would get you aren't paying attention.
Just having some fun with the tribalism on here
So if thats the case, my statement if you three following and backing up each other is true since you all responded within minutes? I mean how predictable was that?
Just as predicable as you, FMIC and Arc backing up the other side within minutes.
Just as predicable as you, FMIC and Arc backing up the other side within minutes.
You do realize Arc and I disagreed all last year on the Giants, Beckham, and everything in between? You know FMiC use to call me out for things I said for years?
See you are just throwing shit to the wind because you got called out and the reality set in. I dont follow FMiC and Arc on every thread. I dont agree with them on everything. But since we appear on this thread together, you figure it was smart of you to lump us together.
A. If you watch the clip, Carter was very praise worthy of Jones’s performance last Thursday.
B. Carter said he’s willing to wipe the slate clean and now just evaluate Jones as a pro, and table his view of him as a prospect at Duke.
C. In order to confirm A and B, you need to watch the clip.
D. In order to watch the clip to get to A and B, you need to hover over the clip and left click on your mouse.
E. Always happy to help.
I watched it, and addressed it in my first post on this thread. Shoulda, coulda, woulda, didn't intercept it.
Chris Carter will say: Daniel Jones "stared it down". The safety "should" have been wider. Two "could" have intercepted it. A starter "would" have intercepted it. The two guys there "didn't" make the play.
I say: Daniel Jones recognized the coverage, saw the safety lined up inside, recognized that it was open, and made the throw.
As I said in my first post, the whole story is the guy got beat. That's all there is to it. It happens every week in football on every level. You play against who you play against. Who's to say that if the starter was in there and was lined up wider that Daniel Jones wouldn't have looked elsewhere?
Framing the context of what you're saying is important and can go positive, negative, or neutral.
You add in Chris Carter's prior commentary that he now wants to just "dismiss" (calling an entire organization racist is a pretty strong statement to just dismiss), and you get a disingenuous asshole.
You post to bait. bw does as well and at least he admits it (and thankfully disappears completely when the team does well)
Googs - he's just a useless fuckstick whose SOLE purpose of posting here is to troll and bait too.
And when the team starts doing well again - all of your motivation to post disappears.
I've been doing this Giants message board thing for a long time, starting back on Giants.com before finding this place. I've posted regularly through the ups and downs and will probably continue to do so.
I will both praise and criticize the the team as I see fit (in between making snarky comments to amuse myself)
Fats doesn't like anybody that tends to get the better of him Â
I used to watch Giants games and get pissed at Buck and Aikman trashing the Giants in games we were playing the Cowboys or Eagles. Now? Couldn't care less at all. Its the business, their opinion doesn't matter to me. As much as we think these guys are paid for their expert opinion I'd challenge that and say they are paid to use their knowledge for entertainment purposes.
I used to watch Giants games and get pissed at Buck and Aikman trashing the Giants in games we were playing the Cowboys or Eagles. Now? Couldn't care less at all. Its the business, their opinion doesn't matter to me. As much as we think these guys are paid for their expert opinion I'd challenge that and say they are paid to use their knowledge for entertainment purposes.
I agree, this is much ado about nothing.
However, his statement on the Giants being racist as an organization, in this climate, should be a fireable offense, IMO. There should be no tolerance for such statements with nothing to back them up.
I thought Daniel Jones looked good on the drive, his TD pass Â
And, of course, the prideful group on BBI that simply will not stand for anyone talking bad about Jones, or even good or neutral it seems.
I don't expect you to grasp the discussion. It revolves around not talking bad about Jones, but why a successful TD pass is being dissected. It is like Carter is bucking for a position with PFF on trying to ascertain blame on a successful play.
And, of course, the prideful group on BBI that simply will not stand for anyone talking bad about Jones, or even good or neutral it seems.
I don't expect you to grasp the discussion. It revolves around not talking bad about Jones, but why a successful TD pass is being dissected. It is like Carter is bucking for a position with PFF on trying to ascertain blame on a successful play.
Yeah, like its so complex to keep up with your rants.
I'm sure nobody else with bother you with their comments after the next game...
he started off just fine in that video but he just couldn't help himself. If that was Mahomes making that exact same throw he'd be gushing.
It took all of 1 minute for me to find a video that probably enraged the Chief fanbase (assumning they're similarly sensitive): https://www.foxsports.com/watch/first-things-first/video/1375780931869
RE: RE: reading peope defend Carter has been cute Â
he started off just fine in that video but he just couldn't help himself. If that was Mahomes making that exact same throw he'd be gushing.
It took all of 1 minute for me to find a video that probably enraged the Chief fanbase (assumning they're similarly sensitive): https://www.foxsports.com/watch/first-things-first/video/1375780931869
I don't think telling Mahomes to protect the ball is the same as saying a good pass should have been picked had a different player been in on the play? That's just bushleague arguing.
meant to respond to your earlier point but I agree, just an inexcusable remark by Carter, one that has nothing to do with any of the players involved. Just a really shitty thing to publicly state about someone without even a shred of evidence.
RE: RE: RE: reading peope defend Carter has been cute Â
he started off just fine in that video but he just couldn't help himself. If that was Mahomes making that exact same throw he'd be gushing.
It took all of 1 minute for me to find a video that probably enraged the Chief fanbase (assumning they're similarly sensitive): https://www.foxsports.com/watch/first-things-first/video/1375780931869
I don't think telling Mahomes to protect the ball is the same as saying a good pass should have been picked had a different player been in on the play? That's just bushleague arguing.
dude, he actually directly refuted the exact point you just made. he found a clip of CC being very critical of Mahomes, in a game he threw for almost 500 yards and 6 TDs none the less
I already addressed it, catch up will you? How come you forgot about the 5 turnovers in that game? Doesn't jive with your argument does it?
He criticized him for ball security...I wonder why? Ohh i know, he had 5 turnovers. So how exactly does that equate to a made up theory about a different player being about to intercept the Jones TD?
So i'll say it again, if Mahomes made that pass my guess is Carter would applaud it.
I already addressed it, catch up will you? How come you forgot about the 5 turnovers in that game? Doesn't jive with your argument does it?
He criticized him for ball security...I wonder why? Ohh i know, he had 5 turnovers. So how exactly does that equate to a made up theory about a different player being about to intercept the Jones TD?
So i'll say it again, if Mahomes made that pass my guess is Carter would applaud it.
shouldn't the opposite hold true though. Shouldn't CC be minimizing Mahomes mistakes and accentuating his positives to promote his agenda?
I already addressed it, catch up will you? How come you forgot about the 5 turnovers in that game? Doesn't jive with your argument does it?
He criticized him for ball security...I wonder why? Ohh i know, he had 5 turnovers. So how exactly does that equate to a made up theory about a different player being about to intercept the Jones TD?
So i'll say it again, if Mahomes made that pass my guess is Carter would applaud it.
shouldn't the opposite hold true though. Shouldn't CC be minimizing Mahomes mistakes and accentuating his positives to promote his agenda?
because he actually made mistakes, big ones, and repeatedly. Jones didn't. I'd have no problem with him saying "Jones needs to watch it when locking onto a receiver" - that makes sense and isn't egregious. But his argument about a different player picking off that ball is simply bullshit.
This can't be that hard to follow, or is it just me?
I already addressed it, catch up will you? How come you forgot about the 5 turnovers in that game? Doesn't jive with your argument does it?
He criticized him for ball security...I wonder why? Ohh i know, he had 5 turnovers. So how exactly does that equate to a made up theory about a different player being about to intercept the Jones TD?
So i'll say it again, if Mahomes made that pass my guess is Carter would applaud it.
shouldn't the opposite hold true though. Shouldn't CC be minimizing Mahomes mistakes and accentuating his positives to promote his agenda?
because he actually made mistakes, big ones, and repeatedly. Jones didn't. I'd have no problem with him saying "Jones needs to watch it when locking onto a receiver" - that makes sense and isn't egregious. But his argument about a different player picking off that ball is simply bullshit.
This can't be that hard to follow, or is it just me?
You wont get an argument from me that his argument that a different player lined up in a different spot would lead to an interception is, at best, a stretch (and thats being generous)
Just seems like his shtick if to find negative things to say.
You fuckers sent me down a rabbit hole of watching Cris Carter clips. Not exactly how I planned to spend my afternoon.
but when he made the comments he did about the Giants, and followed that up with basically trolling Jones for making a great pass, I'm going to go ahead and call him an asshole.
That's really the only point i'm trying to make. Carter is a moron, his opinion shouldn't matter to anyone (regardless of fandom). He should be called out for it publicly, wish someone in his profession would do so.
but when he made the comments he did about the Giants, and followed that up with basically trolling Jones for making a great pass, I'm going to go ahead and call him an asshole.
That's really the only point i'm trying to make. Carter is a moron, his opinion shouldn't matter to anyone (regardless of fandom). He should be called out for it publicly, wish someone in his profession would do so.
Agreed, me too.
He crossed the line from schtick to real life, big time.
I already addressed it, catch up will you? How come you forgot about the 5 turnovers in that game? Doesn't jive with your argument does it?
He criticized him for ball security...I wonder why? Ohh i know, he had 5 turnovers. So how exactly does that equate to a made up theory about a different player being about to intercept the Jones TD?
So i'll say it again, if Mahomes made that pass my guess is Carter would applaud it.
shouldn't the opposite hold true though. Shouldn't CC be minimizing Mahomes mistakes and accentuating his positives to promote his agenda?
Nope.
Mahomes is white.
is he?
His dad is black and his mom is white.
Jones playing 1 series didn't help Carter either Â
he had no real ammo to go at him which is why he just made things up. If it didn't rain and he played another series going 1-3 with a few yards he could have masked his assholeness much better.
I already addressed it, catch up will you? How come you forgot about the 5 turnovers in that game? Doesn't jive with your argument does it?
He criticized him for ball security...I wonder why? Ohh i know, he had 5 turnovers. So how exactly does that equate to a made up theory about a different player being about to intercept the Jones TD?
So i'll say it again, if Mahomes made that pass my guess is Carter would applaud it.
shouldn't the opposite hold true though. Shouldn't CC be minimizing Mahomes mistakes and accentuating his positives to promote his agenda?
Nope.
Mahomes is white.
is he?
His dad is black and his mom is white.
Really? Didn't know that. Maybe CC only half-criticized him
And, if we win and continue to win, then ELi will continue to play. If we don't, he won't.
It's not rocket science or even basic physics. You don't need to actually be in Los Alamos to understand that. But, maybe getting a little closer might help.
RE: I would hope that we should all hope that we win Â
And, if we win and continue to win, then ELi will continue to play. If we don't, he won't.
It's not rocket science or even basic physics. You don't need to actually be in Los Alamos to understand that. But, maybe getting a little closer might help.
You have to admit that a 7-9, 8-8 or even 9-7 and missing the playoffs and Jones gets no playing time is just about the worst possible outcome. And probably the most likely
Chris Carter called the Chiefs a bunch of racists that would be helpful, too, if we're defending the guy.
I actually re-watched the clip where Carter enters race into the picture. It sounded like he was referencing some piece of information that Haskins slid because there was doubt about his ability to "comprehend" information. And that really pissed Carter off because (1) he knows Day put in a more complicated offense at OSU to match Haskins's ability to absorb information and (2) he's sensitive to that stuff because he's black.
The prologue to that was Carter saying if Haskins put up the numbers that Jones did at Duke, and finished 7th in the ACC in passing, he'd not have been drafted as high as Jones. Etc, etc.
Oddly enough, he later says the Giants made a mistake taking Jones. Not because Haskins was a better choice, but because they needed other better pieces - like a pass rusher. And cites Allen. Further, he suggests that since Eli is the QB this year, and likely more years, that getting talent to fill other needs was more pressing...at least that's how I heard it.
He actually compliments Gettleman for having the courage of his convictions to basically put his career on the line by going with Jones. And even says Gettleman has been in the league for a long time and usually knows what he's doing...
So Carter is sort of all over the map, but very passionate and sensitive to why Haskins slipped.
I just remember reading an article about Carter invoking race into the equation and never watching the full video segment.
This isn't meant to be a defense of Carter, btw. Just trying to capture where he went with the allegation...
And, if we win and continue to win, then ELi will continue to play. If we don't, he won't.
It's not rocket science or even basic physics. You don't need to actually be in Los Alamos to understand that. But, maybe getting a little closer might help.
You have to admit that a 7-9, 8-8 or even 9-7 and missing the playoffs and Jones gets no playing time is just about the worst possible outcome. And probably the most likely
BTW - I appreciate your area 51 joke
It'd be surprising if Jones didn't play at all this season. 2020 is a shoe-in, though.
Chris Carter called the Chiefs a bunch of racists that would be helpful, too, if we're defending the guy.
No, but I also couldn't find one where he called the Giants a bunch of racists either. I just see dumb headlines, and I thought dumb headlines were consistently frowned upon in these parts.
RE: RE: If you could also find a clip where..... Â
Chris Carter called the Chiefs a bunch of racists that would be helpful, too, if we're defending the guy.
No, but I also couldn't find one where he called the Giants a bunch of racists either. I just see dumb headlines, and I thought dumb headlines were consistently frowned upon in these parts.
See my outline of Carter's remarks above from his show - just FYI.
Chris Carter called the Chiefs a bunch of racists that would be helpful, too, if we're defending the guy.
No, but I also couldn't find one where he called the Giants a bunch of racists either. I just see dumb headlines, and I thought dumb headlines were consistently frowned upon in these parts.
Didn't Carter directly say the Giants didn't consider Haskins because he was black?
segment by the co host on haskins that brings race into the conversation Link - ( New Window )
The "host" is awful, who is that anyway? I like how not liking Haskins is incompetence. He then goes on to say he could have been the #1 pick...
I'm not an expert, but there's a bunch of legitimate reasons why Haskins didn't go #1 overall, too many to name in fact. Just a chickenshit way to drum up a story when you lack the ability to break down why a player might actually fall.
just listened to the other one you posted, don't know why i'm doing this to myself. Carter doesn't even address the difference in talent level between OSU and Duke, just keeps talking about stats. Hot takes galore.
“I just can’t go on without saying this: If Dwayne Haskins, as an African-American, goes to Duke and puts up those mediocre stats – seventh in the conference. He’s not drafted Day 1 or damn Day 2,” Carter said on “First Things First.” “So when you start talking about ‘a guy can’t comprehend’ – that stuff is racial.”
“I just can’t go on without saying this: If Dwayne Haskins, as an African-American, goes to Duke and puts up those mediocre stats – seventh in the conference. He’s not drafted Day 1 or damn Day 2,” Carter said on “First Things First.” “So when you start talking about ‘a guy can’t comprehend’ – that stuff is racial.”
Quote:
“But this is a black quarterback that’s not real athletic, that is just a drop-back passer. He’s going to have to beat you with his brain and his arm. It’s like, ‘Oh, he doesn’t run? He’s not athletic? Well, eh, I’ll go with this 6 [foot] 5 white kid from Duke because he reminds me more of the quarterbacks I’ve seen.'”
The panel then quoted Giants general manager Dave Gettleman, who claimed he fell in “full bloom love” with Jones after three series at the Senior Bowl, implying that’s all they needed to choose the white player over the black player.
"direct" declaration by Carter that the Giants didn't draft Haskins because he was black?
I don’t know what else to say. It sounded pretty damn clear to me and it wasn’t a slip up, he makes several references to race being the motivator, in fact.
“I just can’t go on without saying this: If Dwayne Haskins, as an African-American, goes to Duke and puts up those mediocre stats – seventh in the conference. He’s not drafted Day 1 or damn Day 2,” Carter said on “First Things First.” “So when you start talking about ‘a guy can’t comprehend’ – that stuff is racial.”
Right. I referenced this above. So who was saying Haskins can't comprehend (Carter's source)?
I reviewed those earlier and posted my comments about these about an hour ago. Your second link is pretty harmless by Carter. Essentially says Jones was a reach, but DG has been doing this for a while, and his legacy will be tied to Carter.
The first link, like I mentioned earlier, Carter's tipping point is that he heard something about Haskin's not have the ability to comprehend, and that's why he fell. Not sure what that sourcing was/is, but that was the genesis...
“I just can’t go on without saying this: If Dwayne Haskins, as an African-American, goes to Duke and puts up those mediocre stats – seventh in the conference. He’s not drafted Day 1 or damn Day 2,” Carter said on “First Things First.” “So when you start talking about ‘a guy can’t comprehend’ – that stuff is racial.”
Who is the source for a "guy can't comprehend"? The default seems to be that it's the Giants. Fine...but based on what?
Are you trying to imply that he's not bringing race into the discussion, because I'm getting that general feeling. Or at least putting forth a great effort to minimize his statements.
"direct" declaration by Carter that the Giants didn't draft Haskins because he was black?
Gotta cross enemy lines here. Although not directly stated, it clear in the conversation between the two of them that they strongly imply that the Giants prefer the white quarterback.
Are you trying to imply that he's not bringing race into the discussion, because I'm getting that general feeling. Or at least putting forth a great effort to minimize his statements.
No, not at all. Of course he is...
Like I said, I'm not sure if he's saying the Giants said Haskins would struggle with comprehension or if he was just making a general remark why he think Haskins fell.
If it's the latter, and based on what Carter says later in the segment about DG, he may not have been directly pointing the race card at the Giants. I just don't know.
“I just can’t go on without saying this: If Dwayne Haskins, as an African-American, goes to Duke and puts up those mediocre stats – seventh in the conference. He’s not drafted Day 1 or damn Day 2,” Carter said on “First Things First.” “So when you start talking about ‘a guy can’t comprehend’ – that stuff is racial.”
So... neither of those quotes directly accuse the Giants of not drafting Haskins because he's black. You can disagree with his overall "If he were ______ then he would ______" argument if you'd like (though don't clutch your pearls over it too tightly, because that same type of argument is made all the time here, including on this very thread). But there's no direct "The Giants in particular drafted Jones instead of Haskins because they hate the idea of a black QB" statement anywhere.
“I just can’t go on without saying this: If Dwayne Haskins, as an African-American, goes to Duke and puts up those mediocre stats – seventh in the conference. He’s not drafted Day 1 or damn Day 2,” Carter said on “First Things First.” “So when you start talking about ‘a guy can’t comprehend’ – that stuff is racial.”
Right. I referenced this above. So who was saying Haskins can't comprehend (Carter's source)?
I ask, because it's not clear...
He definitely doesn't seem to be singling out the Giants as the source of that comment. Unless there IS some reference of the Giants actually indicating that was a reason they didn't draft Haskins.
I see Carter's argument as less about the Giants taking someone because he was white, and more about how if Haskins had put up Jones' numbers on a team that finished with Duke's record, he wouldn't have gone in the first round. Hell, he even says day 2. But because we've got a worse persecution complex as Giants fans than we accuse Carter of having about racial issues, we actually think he called the Giants racist for their choice.
Twats. Stop the fucking madness. The guy the Giants drafted at 6 was under enormous pressure in his first NFL action because of the media circus surrounding the pick. He handled it by being fucking perfect and ending his day by throwing a perfect TD to the pylon. At least admit the pressure he was under perform. Some of you must never get laid or have something stuck up your ass. We should be universally happy as fans of the team.
“I just can’t go on without saying this: If Dwayne Haskins, as an African-American, goes to Duke and puts up those mediocre stats – seventh in the conference. He’s not drafted Day 1 or damn Day 2,” Carter said on “First Things First.” “So when you start talking about ‘a guy can’t comprehend’ – that stuff is racial.”
Right. I referenced this above. So who was saying Haskins can't comprehend (Carter's source)?
I ask, because it's not clear...
He definitely doesn't seem to be singling out the Giants as the source of that comment. Unless there IS some reference of the Giants actually indicating that was a reason they didn't draft Haskins.
I see Carter's argument as less about the Giants taking someone because he was white, and more about how if Haskins had put up Jones' numbers on a team that finished with Duke's record, he wouldn't have gone in the first round. Hell, he even says day 2. But because we've got a worse persecution complex as Giants fans than we accuse Carter of having about racial issues, we actually think he called the Giants racist for their choice.
“I just can’t go on without saying this: If Dwayne Haskins, as an African-American, goes to Duke and puts up those mediocre stats – seventh in the conference. He’s not drafted Day 1 or damn Day 2,” Carter said on “First Things First.” “So when you start talking about ‘a guy can’t comprehend’ – that stuff is racial.”
Right. I referenced this above. So who was saying Haskins can't comprehend (Carter's source)?
I ask, because it's not clear...
He definitely doesn't seem to be singling out the Giants as the source of that comment. Unless there IS some reference of the Giants actually indicating that was a reason they didn't draft Haskins.
I see Carter's argument as less about the Giants taking someone because he was white, and more about how if Haskins had put up Jones' numbers on a team that finished with Duke's record, he wouldn't have gone in the first round. Hell, he even says day 2. But because we've got a worse persecution complex as Giants fans than we accuse Carter of having about racial issues, we actually think he called the Giants racist for their choice.
I think it depends on what the meaning of “is” is.
Curses for sending me down any sort of Cris Carter rabbit hole, even one that is only consuming 5 minutes because these are so easy to find, but I can only imagine how pissed we'd be here if Jones has a Mahomesish week 1 debut and Carter reacts like this:
https://youtu.be/POOWQB-XtG4
Now I recognize that this isn't an exact clone of what he said about Jones but can we at least put the "He'd never express any "pump the brakes" thoughts like that about any non Giant quarterback!!" thing to rest?
He definitely doesn't seem to be singling out the Giants as the source of that comment. Unless there IS some reference of the Giants actually indicating that was a reason they didn't draft Haskins.
I see Carter's argument as less about the Giants taking someone because he was white, and more about how if Haskins had put up Jones' numbers on a team that finished with Duke's record, he wouldn't have gone in the first round. Hell, he even says day 2. But because we've got a worse persecution complex as Giants fans than we accuse Carter of having about racial issues, we actually think he called the Giants racist for their choice.
I can see why people jumped on Carter. Especially if you relied solely on the print media because they made it sound as if Carter directly said all of Jints Central are racists.
But it you watched the segment and listened carefully, it's just not that clear. Carter's disgust is driven by some information that Haskins was considered less capable because of some intellect concern. And that was the catalyst that dropped Haskins out of the top ten.
Bookend that with Carter later praising DG, it's a lot sketchier if Carter was actually calling DG a racist for the Jones pick...
“I just can’t go on without saying this: If Dwayne Haskins, as an African-American, goes to Duke and puts up those mediocre stats – seventh in the conference. He’s not drafted Day 1 or damn Day 2,” Carter said on “First Things First.” “So when you start talking about ‘a guy can’t comprehend’ – that stuff is racial.”
So... neither of those quotes directly accuse the Giants of not drafting Haskins because he's black. You can disagree with his overall "If he were ______ then he would ______" argument if you'd like (though don't clutch your pearls over it too tightly, because that same type of argument is made all the time here, including on this very thread). But there's no direct "The Giants in particular drafted Jones instead of Haskins because they hate the idea of a black QB" statement anywhere.
It's about as direct as you can get without naming the Giants. I mean, nobody else picked a white guy from Duke with those stats in the first round.
He's saying the Giants wouldn't have picked Jones if everything else (school, stats, etc) were the same about him but you changed his name to Haskins and made him black instead of white. How can you take that as anything other than an accusation of racism?
But he didn't specifically limit it to the Giants Â
He actually said no one I first round and possibly even the 2nd and 3rd rounds of the draft would have drafted him.
The headlines from the tabloidy websites we had no problem dismissing when they'd write about OBJ's issues made it sound as though Carter was ranting and raving like he was bitten by a radioactive Steven A Smith. This very thread also acts as though he's just incredulous about any credit Jones is getting, and that he's holding him to some standard he'd apply to no one else merely because he lost to us nearly two decades ago. The reality seems very different.
that Carter was jumping on the growing bandwagon that was perplexed by Haskins sudden fall during the draft and the few weeks leading up to it. I remember these articles because the Giants were thought to be interested in Haskins. The idea of racial bias came up in a few of them, but not directed towards any one team.
I still don't think that Carter has some axe to grind about Jones, or that he's offering some criticism of Jones' TD pass that he wouldn't offer in any other QB analysis because of this axe, but I guess we'll find out if Jones winds up being good enough to afford Carter multiple opportunities to.
if you want to discuss race -- discuss it somewhere else -- this is not the forum to discuss it. Those of you who wish to continue such a discussion will be banned.
What an ass.
Before the game I said for Jones it would be abut building his confidence. Shumer did a great job of giving Jones plays where he could succeed. Terrific job by Shumer.
So I completely agree with Carter. I didn't predict Jones would go 5-5. The kid looked comfortable. But as I said in another thread, this is a sugar high. Give it time. Let it play out.
He does point out that the Giants left their first team o-line in with Jones against the Jets backup defenders. He says this was smart of the Giants to help Jones have success.
He then talks about the touchdown pass. He points out that Jones locked in on his target from the snap until the throw. Carter says a starting NFL safety is going to pick up on that which the Jets safety didn't.
He then points out that the Jets safety put himself in bad position to make a play on the TD pass. He might be right, he might be wrong, but it's possible a NFL caliber starting safety would have made a play on the ball. The Jets safety did get turned around and had his back to the play.
Not defending Carter, but I didn't get the arrogant douche impression from his comments.
And some here admitted to thinking the same thing.
He needs Jones to suck after saying something so dumb.
If you can’t rationally absorb the salient points Carter is making you need another hobby for Sundays, September thru December.
It was incorrect and agenda driven. Other than that, nothing.
I have never seen such nitpicking of a preseason TD.
If you can’t rationally absorb the salient points Carter is making you need another hobby for Sundays, September thru December.
There is an obvious pattern here and its not surprising that you miss it entirely
It was incorrect and agenda driven. Other than that, nothing.
You weren’t mistakingly watching CNN...were you?
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a comprehension problem here.
If you can’t rationally absorb the salient points Carter is making you need another hobby for Sundays, September thru December.
There is an obvious pattern here and its not surprising that you miss it entirely
Should I play the clip backwards and listen if something Satanic comes out of Carter’s mouth?
If you can’t rationally absorb the salient points Carter is making you need another hobby for Sundays, September thru December.
Everyone understands the points it's the way he defends one quarterback who throws 2 picks and finds fault with a TD play. This especially how vocal he was after the draft about the two of them. He still maybe proven correct long term it's just curious at this time. Besides was Haskins throwing against the two's? Funny how it was never mentioned. And I'm a guy who actually wanted them to draft Haskins.
not everything is the World against the Giants...
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a comprehension problem here.
If you can’t rationally absorb the salient points Carter is making you need another hobby for Sundays, September thru December.
Everyone understands the points it's the way he defends one quarterback who throws 2 picks and finds fault with a TD play. This especially how vocal he was after the draft about the two of them. He still maybe proven correct long term it's just curious at this time. Besides was Haskins throwing against the two's? Funny how it was never mentioned. And I'm a guy who actually wanted them to draft Haskins.
Carter said Haskins completely misjudged the speed of NFL linebackers on the pick 6. But go ahead and keep looking for UFOs and Bigfoot...
Gee, you got me. I’ll self-ban...
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It was incorrect and agenda driven. Other than that, nothing.
You weren’t mistakingly watching CNN...were you?
He said there was only one receiver on that side of the field...wrong. He said the safety should have been out wide. Maybe that's correct, but if it is, do you think Jones still throws the ball there when he has Ellison underneath and a RB wide open right in front of him.
He said there was only one receiver on that side of the field...wrong. He said the safety should have been out wide. Maybe that's correct, but if it is, do you think Jones still throws the ball there when he has Ellison underneath and a RB wide open right in front of him.
Ok, maybe that’s fair. I don’t know. But Mangini said the same thing yesterday. What’s his agenda?
100%
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In comment 14525786 bw in dc said:
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a comprehension problem here.
If you can’t rationally absorb the salient points Carter is making you need another hobby for Sundays, September thru December.
Everyone understands the points it's the way he defends one quarterback who throws 2 picks and finds fault with a TD play. This especially how vocal he was after the draft about the two of them. He still maybe proven correct long term it's just curious at this time. Besides was Haskins throwing against the two's? Funny how it was never mentioned. And I'm a guy who actually wanted them to draft Haskins.
Carter said Haskins completely misjudged the speed of NFL linebackers on the pick 6. But go ahead and keep looking for UFOs and Bigfoot...
It was an underthrown, terrible pass.
The defense can be out of position or make mistakes and it's still a good decision and throw by Jones.
If the defense plays it the way certain people say does Jones still throw the ball? If he does, maybe he still fits it where only the receiver can get it (manning to Manningham)?
Perhaps he goes elsewhere with the ball, or runs.
Jones is going to make poor throws, reads, decisions just like he is going to make good throws, reads and decisions.
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He said there was only one receiver on that side of the field...wrong. He said the safety should have been out wide. Maybe that's correct, but if it is, do you think Jones still throws the ball there when he has Ellison underneath and a RB wide open right in front of him.
Ok, maybe that’s fair. I don’t know. But Mangini said the same thing yesterday. What’s his agenda?
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because he's a bigger fan of his own opinion than the Giants.
Gee, you got me. I’ll self-ban...
If that's not the case why are you so eager to find analysts trashing Daniel Jones after he just went 5 for 5 in his preseason debut and then trashing other posters because they defend him?
not everything is the World against the Giants...
At face value theres nothing egregious about his comments. When you take into account that he flat out said the Giants must have a racial agenda in order to select Jones over Haskins, then listen to him explain away 2 Haskins picks and spend 2 minutes of a 15 minute segment downplaying Jones' td pass it seems to fit his agenda.
The funniest part is that he takes time to try and explain that he doesnt allowngis judgement on a rookie prospect influence how he analyzes there play when you can make the argument that he just did exactly that.
If ya'll notice Carter immediately followed up with a rant that he ignores everything he said during and following the draft. That he evaluates them evenly with a fresh start. Why did he feel the need to bring that up? Because he was doing exactly that, that's why.
This just proves how NY gets criticized harder than most teams and Chris and Nick will stick with their own agenda to create controversy. They felt the need to point out Jones played against the Jets 2nd team pass defense but apparently, Haskins threw his 2 interceptions to an in their prime Deion Sanders and Darrelle Revis because they didn't bother mentioning their boy Haskins was also playing against 2nd-team.
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what he remarks about in that video is fine. You may disagree with some of it but he isn’t being irrational.
not everything is the World against the Giants...
At face value theres nothing egregious about his comments. When you take into account that he flat out said the Giants must have a racial agenda in order to select Jones over Haskins, then listen to him explain away 2 Haskins picks and spend 2 minutes of a 15 minute segment downplaying Jones' td pass it seems to fit his agenda.
The funniest part is that he takes time to try and explain that he doesnt allowngis judgement on a rookie prospect influence how he analyzes there play when you can make the argument that he just did exactly that.
LOL! I must have started typing while you were posting. I'm in complete agreement with you.
The defense can be out of position or make mistakes and it's still a good decision and throw by Jones.
.
Winning statement...
So of course when people are changing their opinion of Jones and even gushing about him, Carter has to run him down while not being anywhere nearly as critical of Haskins. This is what you call bias.
Chris Carter is the last person I would go to for an objective opinion on Daniel Jones. Starting NFL safeties also make ton of mistakes and get flat out beat. They are not gods who pick off every ball and break up every play. To assume they do is ludicrous otherwise NFL QBs would have a 15% completion percentage. Jones made a great pass. All rookie QBs are doing more simple things see Kyler Murray. Jones happened to the best of them while Haskins was up and down. End of story.
Carter tried to overanalyze it cause he doesn't like Jones and tried to knock to fit his agenda. Jones will never get a fair shake from Carter for a number of reasons one of them being the color of his skin. That is why no one likes Chris Carter. He is a petty and biased.
If that's not the case why are you so eager to find analysts trashing Daniel Jones after he just went 5 for 5 in his preseason debut and then trashing other posters because they defend him?
For the recollection impaired, I didn't make this thread and link the video.
‘
And it makes no sense to say that the safety never picked up on the read, and had he, then he gets a pick. If Jones sees the safety doesn’t pick up route and throws a TD, was that the wrong decision? Maybe if he breaks on the route, Jones goes somewhere else with the ball?
You can’t change one variable in a series of inter-related variable and then state what should have happened. It’s idiotic. That is what is wrong with what Carter said.
Carter said Haskins completely misjudged the speed of NFL linebackers on the pick 6. But go ahead and keep looking for UFOs and Bigfoot...
It was an underthrown, terrible pass.
And?
‘
And it makes no sense to say that the safety never picked up on the read, and had he, then he gets a pick. If Jones sees the safety doesn’t pick up route and throws a TD, was that the wrong decision? Maybe if he breaks on the route, Jones goes somewhere else with the ball?
I didn't see Jamaal Adams on the field. Did you?
So that’s “what’s wrong” with what he said. It’s skewed, because in reality, you can knock virtually every completed TD toss..
Nothing to see here save for the obvious.
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If that's not the case why are you so eager to find analysts trashing Daniel Jones after he just went 5 for 5 in his preseason debut and then trashing other posters because they defend him?
For the recollection impaired, I didn't make this thread and link the video.
You've been banging that drum in a separate thread and continued so here. At least the person who made this thread seems to be supporting Daniel Jones, which is more than can be said about you. You support bw.
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And as posted above, wrong facts. There was not one receiver on that side of the field. There were Jets starters on the field. Correcting the factual errors would have helped.
‘
And it makes no sense to say that the safety never picked up on the read, and had he, then he gets a pick. If Jones sees the safety doesn’t pick up route and throws a TD, was that the wrong decision? Maybe if he breaks on the route, Jones goes somewhere else with the ball?
I didn't see Jamaal Adams on the field. Did you?
By that logic we should ignore everything the Jets first team D did because Saquon Barkley wasn’t on the field. There were plenty of open options and we can’t say what would have happened had a Safety been in position. The fact is Jones recognized he would have the play and went with it.
He does point out that the Giants left their first team o-line in with Jones against the Jets backup defenders. He says this was smart of the Giants to help Jones have success.
He then talks about the touchdown pass. He points out that Jones locked in on his target from the snap until the throw. Carter says a starting NFL safety is going to pick up on that which the Jets safety didn't.
He then points out that the Jets safety put himself in bad position to make a play on the TD pass. He might be right, he might be wrong, but it's possible a NFL caliber starting safety would have made a play on the ball. The Jets safety did get turned around and had his back to the play.
Not defending Carter, but I didn't get the arrogant douche impression from his comments.
Carter would be wrong about the Jets backup defenders. They had 5 starters in as well as the 3rd overall pick Quinnen Williams. Did he mention anything about the Giants having their backup RB or their 2nd & 3rd TE or their 4th and 5th WRs playing?
I mean I know we don’t score a lot of TDs... but how about we don’t shit on ones we actually score?
Haskins didn't play against ANY Browns starter. Daniel Jones played against a Jets D who had half their starters in.
I don't see anything problematic. It was pretty good analysis. Whether you agree or not is up to you. He looked really solid - I didn't think that last pass was great and I was surprised that no one seemed to mention it very well could have gotten picked. If that was the giants D, people would be saying "all (random DB) had to do was turn around". I thought it was a phenomenal debut but thank God there's room for improvement after the first exhibition game, as is expected. But you couldn't ask for a better series. As a therapist, I frequently have to tel people that they have to learn to hold more than one truth at a time. On BBI, I feel the need to tell people they really need to fucking learn to do that. I mean it's a lot more reasonable than baldinger, who people are ready to blow.
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because he's a bigger fan of his own opinion than the Giants.
Gee, you got me. I’ll self-ban...
That would be amazing. Thank you.
The Jets had a mix of 1st and 2nd team guys in, so saying that the safety is not an NFL player is wrong too. At least, he's a likely backup. Carter is grasping at straws to find something negative.
And it's time for new frames dude. Your face is way too fat for those.
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And as posted above, wrong facts. There was not one receiver on that side of the field. There were Jets starters on the field. Correcting the factual errors would have helped.
‘
And it makes no sense to say that the safety never picked up on the read, and had he, then he gets a pick. If Jones sees the safety doesn’t pick up route and throws a TD, was that the wrong decision? Maybe if he breaks on the route, Jones goes somewhere else with the ball?
I didn't see Jamaal Adams on the field. Did you?
You are being intentionally obtuse. This is why you get the shit you do.
If Jamaal Adams is on the field and reads it correctly and breaks quicker, explain how you know Jones would have still thrown it there resulting in a pick.
For the recollection impaired, I didn't make this thread and link the video.
You've been banging that drum in a separate thread and continued so here. At least the person who made this thread seems to be supporting Daniel Jones, which is more than can be said about you. You support bw.
Good one.
I wasn't banging any drum. Re-read what I wrote on the other thread. There is nothing nefarious. I was dovetailing what Sy said about Jones missing putting the TE in mostion on a prior play.
In other words, it was a football discussion.
And because I know the BBI Paranoia Crowd would have a breakdown if I mentioned just Carter, I mentioned Mangini to soften that expected blow. Alas, I misjudged the strength of the paranoid.
Let’s hyper analyze every QBs great throws, especially the rookies and see how many have these so called strings attached. Oh wait, no one rarely does that. But it’s the giants and Daniel jones so this is to be expected I guess.
I don't see anything problematic. It was pretty good analysis. Whether you agree or not is up to you. He looked really solid - I didn't think that last pass was great and I was surprised that no one seemed to mention it very well could have gotten picked. If that was the giants D, people would be saying "all (random DB) had to do was turn around". I thought it was a phenomenal debut but thank God there's room for improvement after the first exhibition game, as is expected. But you couldn't ask for a better series. As a therapist, I frequently have to tel people that they have to learn to hold more than one truth at a time. On BBI, I feel the need to tell people they really need to fucking learn to do that. I mean it's a lot more reasonable than baldinger, who people are ready to blow.
Solid analysis even when getting obvious facts wrong about the play including formation, routes run, and personnel?
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For the recollection impaired, I didn't make this thread and link the video.
You've been banging that drum in a separate thread and continued so here. At least the person who made this thread seems to be supporting Daniel Jones, which is more than can be said about you. You support bw.
Good one.
I wasn't banging any drum. Re-read what I wrote on the other thread. There is nothing nefarious. I was dovetailing what Sy said about Jones missing putting the TE in mostion on a prior play.
In other words, it was a football discussion.
And because I know the BBI Paranoia Crowd would have a breakdown if I mentioned just Carter, I mentioned Mangini to soften that expected blow. Alas, I misjudged the strength of the paranoid.
When 100% of your comments are why our rookie that went 5 for 5 and got a TD wasn't that impressive after trashing the pick since the draft I don't buy this shit of you just bestowing knowledge on BBI. Bullshit. You haven't said one positive thing about Jones's drive and if you have it has always been with a caveat. You're all about yourself.
I didn't see Jamaal Adams on the field. Did you?
You are being intentionally obtuse. This is why you get the shit you do.
If Jamaal Adams is on the field and reads it correctly and breaks quicker, explain how you know Jones would have still thrown it there resulting in a pick.
Let me slow down my obtuseness.
I thought it was a great throw when I saw it. But then I heard Mangini - forget Carter - say how Jones basically got away with one. It caught me off guard. Mangini is a highly successful former DC and I thought it was an interesting observation. I was adding context - this came up yesterday - how things can be missed. Like when Sy said Jones missed motioning the TE.
This should really put this whole thing to bed 🛌
When 100% of your comments are why our rookie that went 5 for 5 and got a TD wasn't that impressive after trashing the pick since the draft I don't buy this shit of you just bestowing knowledge on BBI. Bullshit. You haven't said one positive thing about Jones's drive and if you have it has always been with a caveat. You're all about yourself.
Uh, go read the comments thread, started by Eirc, when the game was being played.
I'll accept your apology afterwards.
Seems like this is all anyone needs
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I didn't see Jamaal Adams on the field. Did you?
You are being intentionally obtuse. This is why you get the shit you do.
If Jamaal Adams is on the field and reads it correctly and breaks quicker, explain how you know Jones would have still thrown it there resulting in a pick.
Let me slow down my obtuseness.
I thought it was a great throw when I saw it. But then I heard Mangini - forget Carter - say how Jones basically got away with one. It caught me off guard. Mangini is a highly successful former DC and I thought it was an interesting observation. I was adding context - this came up yesterday - how things can be missed. Like when Sy said Jones missed motioning the TE.
But what that analysis missed - by Carter and Mangini - is cause and effect. Why did he “get away with it” when he threw to a guy who was open and put the ball where the safety couldn’t get it? Is it wrong to take advantage of a mis-read or mis-play by a defender?
One of the QBs jobs is to read the defense and react to it. Why does their analysis exclude the possibility that that is exactly what happened? Why is ignoring some of the relevant factors a good analysis?
As a counterpoint, Greg Cossel talked about that play also on the Ross Tucker podcast and thought it was a good play. Do you think he just missed the nuances that Mangin and Carter picked up on?
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because he's a bigger fan of his own opinion than the Giants.
Gee, you got me. I’ll self-ban...
I see the nutjobs are out again in full force that don't want to hear anything bad about their hero. My God. Carter said he did well!!!!! A freaking preseaosn game and Carter said he did well but yeah let's rip into CC.
There is an incredible homeristic sensitivity on here in which most posters on here are positive. And most of these posters never say anything bad about their beloved team. Thus they turn on any poster who is negative and whine that "they are always negative." Instead of just acknowledging that there are posters who offer a counter=-- they try to attack and they whine about the few tht are negative. Juts look here at Carter and how worked up they are about the pass. SO what? It's a preseason game and CC said he looked good!!!!!!!!!!
The majority of posters on here are positive. You'd think some of the usual suspects who whine about you would grow up and just stop focusing on one poster who doesn't share their pov and accept it's okay to disagree.
He did stare down the receiver or at least that side of the field. IIRC There was a man open on the other side running an out with no coverage underneath.
He made a good throw.
The defender did not play it well, but I think it is a little unfair to say that it SHOULD have been intercepted.
At the end of the video, CC says that he could see why he was a first-round pick.
He was throwing to a second-team receiver vs second-team defenders.
But what that analysis missed - by Carter and Mangini - is cause and effect. Why did he “get away with it” when he threw to a guy who was open and put the ball where the safety couldn’t get it? Is it wrong to take advantage of a mis-read or mis-play by a defender?
One of the QBs jobs is to read the defense and react to it. Why does their analysis exclude the possibility that that is exactly what happened? Why is ignoring some of the relevant factors a good analysis?
As a counterpoint, Greg Cossel talked about that play also on the Ross Tucker podcast and thought it was a good play. Do you think he just missed the nuances that Mangin and Carter picked up on?
I did heard the GC link yesterday. I always enjoy his opinions. Do I think he's got the same defensive understanding as Mangini? Who has actually coached NFL schemes and players? I don't know...maybe. He's a very bright guy. So it could just be a difference of interpretation.
On the read, I think Mangini and Carter were saying NFL starting safeties wouldn't bite on that. So the success rate - my words - would be considerably less.
Jones played well and that TD throw was a good play by him. Carter and Mangini guessing at what might have happened if a different person were playing and did something differently, without changing what anyone else did, is it no way relevant or persuasive to me because it isn’t logical.
Jones missed putting the TE in motion on one play. That needs to be cleaned up. It was a mistake. The guy wasn’t perfect, but he was damn good.
At the end of the video, CC says that he could see why he was a first-round pick.
Good point. Carter said that now that Jones in actually in the league he will only evaluate what he sees and not go back to his pre-draft analysis of Jones's play at Duke.
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But what that analysis missed - by Carter and Mangini - is cause and effect. Why did he “get away with it” when he threw to a guy who was open and put the ball where the safety couldn’t get it? Is it wrong to take advantage of a mis-read or mis-play by a defender?
One of the QBs jobs is to read the defense and react to it. Why does their analysis exclude the possibility that that is exactly what happened? Why is ignoring some of the relevant factors a good analysis?
As a counterpoint, Greg Cossel talked about that play also on the Ross Tucker podcast and thought it was a good play. Do you think he just missed the nuances that Mangin and Carter picked up on?
I did heard the GC link yesterday. I always enjoy his opinions. Do I think he's got the same defensive understanding as Mangini? Who has actually coached NFL schemes and players? I don't know...maybe. He's a very bright guy. So it could just be a difference of interpretation.
On the read, I think Mangini and Carter were saying NFL starting safeties wouldn't bite on that. So the success rate - my words - would be considerably less.
And you keep skipping this part of the analysis in your responses...why do you assume he would have made the same throw if the safety didn’t bite? The conclusion that he “got away with one” necessarily assumes he would have. He said he threw it because of how the safety played it. Should everyone just assume he was lying?
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In comment 14525811 BestFeature said:
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because he's a bigger fan of his own opinion than the Giants.
Gee, you got me. I’ll self-ban...
I see the nutjobs are out again in full force that don't want to hear anything bad about their hero. My God. Carter said he did well!!!!! A freaking preseaosn game and Carter said he did well but yeah let's rip into CC.
There is an incredible homeristic sensitivity on here in which most posters on here are positive. And most of these posters never say anything bad about their beloved team. Thus they turn on any poster who is negative and whine that "they are always negative." Instead of just acknowledging that there are posters who offer a counter=-- they try to attack and they whine about the few tht are negative. Juts look here at Carter and how worked up they are about the pass. SO what? It's a preseason game and CC said he looked good!!!!!!!!!!
The majority of posters on here are positive. You'd think some of the usual suspects who whine about you would grow up and just stop focusing on one poster who doesn't share their pov and accept it's okay to disagree.
When all you post is negative shit about a great performance on a Giants fan site you'll get called out. If you're more interested in finding ways that your rookie QB who had one of the more impressive debuts of a Giant in recent memory screwed than look at the positives of the drive you're going to get called out. Especially if your stance has been the pick was bad. It sounds like you're looking for any reason that he sucks to validate your opinion and that's more important than the player being. And stop with the persecution complex already. It's unbecoming. And Giants fans are positive that must be bad we should all be miserable like you. But wait you're a realist and a badass that just tells it like it is.
If analysts want to say something along the lines of, "Jones caught the defense out of position and took advantage" while also explaining that defenses aren't likely to make that mistake outside of preseason I don't think there would be much issue. Now I don't know what Mangini had to say, I only saw what Carter had to say.
But you can already see Carter setting the foundation for backtracking on Jones being a bad pick.
Nothing to see here.
Are they dissecting if Darnold's dropped pass by Peppers should have been picked? Are the questioning if Mayfield's impressive opening drive should have some disclaimers? Are they putting Haskins TD pass under the microscope?
Why are they doing it for Jones, and why are they commenting that a pass the defender never looked back for should have been picked?
That's a pass Aaron Rodgers makes a living off of. Are those assumptions made about his TD's, or is that grit and the heart of a champion?
Are they dissecting if Darnold's dropped pass by Peppers should have been picked? Are the questioning if Mayfield's impressive opening drive should have some disclaimers? Are they putting Haskins TD pass under the microscope?
Why are they doing it for Jones, and why are they commenting that a pass the defender never looked back for should have been picked?
That's a pass Aaron Rodgers makes a living off of. Are those assumptions made about his TD's, or is that grit and the heart of a champion?
EXACTLY! You can make an argument that any TD pass was in part a poor play by the defense. No other QB has this type of scrutiny. But he's Daniel Jones and these assholes have an agenda.
We're talking about a throw placed perfectly between a defender and the receiver.
no wonder some Giants fans still think Asante Samuel gift-wrapped a SB win....
Note on analysts claiming Jones was put in a position to have success. The Giants have had other QBs for several years now that they have drafted generally high. My guess is that they have put them in the same position to succeed. None of them looked as good as Jones did on Thursday!
It's good be cautiously optimistic but I feel some of the analysts are going out of their way.
Of course it's business in the end. 2 pages worth of engagement going on here over this.
There was a Giants receiver open at the goal line on the same side of the field. If Carter can tell who Jones was looking at he must have super human abilities
Note on analysts claiming Jones was put in a position to have success. The Giants have had other QBs for several years now that they have drafted generally high. My guess is that they have put them in the same position to succeed. None of them looked as good as Jones did on Thursday!
It's good be cautiously optimistic but I feel some of the analysts are going out of their way.
Of course it's business in the end. 2 pages worth of engagement going on here over this.
He wasn’t looking at Fowler he was looking to that side of the field. As explained on the locked on podcast he had a hi low concept read. He made the read and threw to the hi receiver which resulted in a TD.
With that said, I want Jones taking risks. He needs to figure the game out. He needs to know what his limitations are and that will never happen playing it safe all the time. He took a risk and it paid off. Next time maybe it doesn't but that is okay.
Go with those to make yourselves feel better...
I love the throw, but I don't know if him attempting it was the product of any sort of recognition. I just don't know. We can't say that he wouldn't have thrown it if he spotted something with the safety.
We've seen Eli make throws for years to a receiver who ran a wrong route... the throw was still made. Same could have happened with Jones' throw had the safety acted differently.
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When all you post is negative shit about a great performance on a Giants fan site you'll get called out. If you're more interested in finding ways that your rookie QB who had one of the more impressive debuts of a Giant in recent memory screwed than look at the positives of the drive you're going to get called out. Especially if your stance has been the pick was bad. It sounds like you're looking for any reason that he sucks to validate your opinion and that's more important than the player being. And stop with the persecution complex already. It's unbecoming. And Giants fans are positive that must be bad we should all be miserable like you. But wait you're a realist and a badass that just tells it like it is.
Laughable that you use words like "called out." I'll just use words for posters like you as "cheerleading."
WHen you say "you" again you are implying I said something was bad form Jones. It's just that in a preseason game if an analyst nit-pciks I don't go off-the-rail whining like a bitch after one freaking presason game. Typical nutjob post from posters like you to get all worked up over it. I said Jones looked good several times on here. I said Carter said Jones looked good. But keep living in your cheerleading fantasy world.
I said Joens looked good and you twist this into valdiiating my opinion he is bad? You're a complete quack.
And ohhh yeah -- I'm miserable because I think the GMEn are rebuilding this year and hope Jones will be good for the future so in 2020 we can be awesome. But yeah keep playing that "misery card" - you're a nut. ANyone who complains that his team is most likely going to not be good must be miserable, right? Don;t cry to mom this year if the giants don;t make the playoffs, okay?
Next year is the big year so maybe mom can give you some needed hugs this year to get you through the season.
Chris Carter ever take that into consideration?
Carter has always been a Giant hater, and he’s mad DJ went before DH
Agree with everything you said.
Carter will go to his grave being a Giants hater, like Merlin Olson was.
He does point out that the Giants left their first team o-line in with Jones against the Jets backup defenders. He says this was smart of the Giants to help Jones have success.
He then talks about the touchdown pass. He points out that Jones locked in on his target from the snap until the throw. Carter says a starting NFL safety is going to pick up on that which the Jets safety didn't.
He then points out that the Jets safety put himself in bad position to make a play on the TD pass. He might be right, he might be wrong, but it's possible a NFL caliber starting safety would have made a play on the ball. The Jets safety did get turned around and had his back to the play.
Not defending Carter, but I didn't get the arrogant douche impression from his comments.
Curious about this first team vs second team narrative. Don’t remember seeing Barkley, Engram or Shepherd on the field during that drive.
Have they all been demoted to second team
Just when you think sports reporting, and fan narratives can’t get any sillier, they do. Lol
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first off he talked about how Daniel Jones did a good job and made good throws.
He does point out that the Giants left their first team o-line in with Jones against the Jets backup defenders. He says this was smart of the Giants to help Jones have success.
He then talks about the touchdown pass. He points out that Jones locked in on his target from the snap until the throw. Carter says a starting NFL safety is going to pick up on that which the Jets safety didn't.
He then points out that the Jets safety put himself in bad position to make a play on the TD pass. He might be right, he might be wrong, but it's possible a NFL caliber starting safety would have made a play on the ball. The Jets safety did get turned around and had his back to the play.
Not defending Carter, but I didn't get the arrogant douche impression from his comments.
Curious about this first team vs second team narrative. Don’t remember seeing Barkley, Engram or Shepherd on the field during that drive.
Have they all been demoted to second team
Just when you think sports reporting, and fan narratives can’t get any sillier, they do. Lol
They kept the 1st team offensive line in there which was a smart on Schumer's part
DJ impressed me personally on that deep out to the short sideline, the arm strength looked a tick above average. I'm done worrying about his arm strength to the sidelines unless he gets a shoulder injury. The ball placement was tremendous as well, better than advertised. It's good to see a slant route thrown exactly where it needs to be after years of Eli. This is where the game is evolving. YAC YAC YAC!
My take was that the endless repetitive section about Carter wiping the slate clean after the draft and when a high draft pick enters the NFL ( "because NFL coaches can put some people into situations where they succeed") was the most interesting part of the thread
To me, its Carter starting the pivot re-positioning of his takes on DG, Barkley and Jones.
'For the draft I give hot takes. When it comes to the NFL games then im a pure tell it like it is analyst'
Very entertaining. Reminded me of a Presidential candidate who went to the wings of their party to win primaries and now desperately repositioning as a "centrist"
Not sure whose scrambling dance is funniest to watch ...certain media guys or certain posters.
All of them assume we are stupid and forget what they said ( and said many times).
He does point out that the Giants left their first team o-line in with Jones against the Jets backup defenders. He says this was smart of the Giants to help Jones have success.
Quinnen Williams is likely already the Jets best defensive lineman who was in. They had 4 other first team defenders in at the time.
Predefined reads as a huge part of successful NFL offenses today. McVay runs a ton of them, Shurmur too (and road them to a monster season from Case Keenum two years ago). To execute that play well he has to be decisive, quick and put the ball in the perfect spot with enough juice so the DB doesn't have much time to react. They're playing cover 2 and the DB gets caught watching the flat which is when Jones releases it. If the ball hangs in the air the DB would've picked it but it was a textbook throw.
Yes he got caught peaking at the flat as mentioned above but he's in the right position. They're playing Cover 2 and the corner-flat combo is a popular play call to attack it.
I'm going to assume that you didn't hear his comments calling the Giants a racist organization who wouldn't have taken Jones if he was African American because that's why everyone is calling him a douche...
My take was that the endless repetitive section about Carter wiping the slate clean after the draft and when a high draft pick enters the NFL ( "because NFL coaches can put some people into situations where they succeed") was the most interesting part of the thread
To me, its Carter starting the pivot re-positioning of his takes on DG, Barkley and Jones.
'For the draft I give hot takes. When it comes to the NFL games then im a pure tell it like it is analyst'
Very entertaining. Reminded me of a Presidential candidate who went to the wings of their party to win primaries and now desperately repositioning as a "centrist"
Not sure whose scrambling dance is funniest to watch ...certain media guys or certain posters.
All of them assume we are stupid and forget what they said ( and said many times).
you guys take this stuff way too seriously
who cares what he said at the draft. He either has a point here or he doesn't. No one is keeping score for the analysis. That would be a pretty terrible sport.
Personally I think its a shitty take. Its stupid to measure a play against how the defense should have defended it.
I'm only adding this to offset the anti-Carter brigade.
So now that's two NFL sources who thought Jones got away with one - Mangini and Orlavsky.
I'm only adding this to offset the anti-Carter brigade.
So now that's two NFL sources who thought Jones got away with one - Mangini and Orlavsky.
This is so ridiculous. You can only throw against who you are going against. He put the ball in a place where that safety wasn't getting it. If the safety reacts better maybe DJ puts it over the ball higher. Maybe he looks backside, maybe he pulls down and run.
2) always values the black athlete above the white athlete.
This is so ridiculous. You can only throw against who you are going against. He put the ball in a place where that safety wasn't getting it. If the safety reacts better maybe DJ puts it over the ball higher. Maybe he looks backside, maybe he pulls down and run.
I'm not sure it's ridiculous. In my view, I think we should be nuanced in how we evaluate the preseason, which I know you know...
Orlavsky had this incredible stat. I might quote it wrong, but he said the back-up QBs who have played in games so far have completed over 70% of their passes with 13TDs and 3 INTs. Suggesting, of course, that what we are saying need to be carefully measured against the competition on the field.
Yeah, it's hard to tell without the all-22 but he's coached to stay in his back peddle as long as he can to watch the TE, WR and QB. The inroute on that play from the WR is also a common call so it wouldn't be a surprise if that's what he was guessing at. Either way, it all happens so fast that you'd need to be an Earl Thomas or Honeybadger to change direction fast enough and make that play on Fowler in which case, I highly doubt that's the play call Shurmur is going with...
Mark Schofield breaks down Giants QB performances in the Giants vs Jets preseason game - ( New Window )
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This is so ridiculous. You can only throw against who you are going against. He put the ball in a place where that safety wasn't getting it. If the safety reacts better maybe DJ puts it over the ball higher. Maybe he looks backside, maybe he pulls down and run.
I'm not sure it's ridiculous. In my view, I think we should be nuanced in how we evaluate the preseason, which I know you know...
Orlavsky had this incredible stat. I might quote it wrong, but he said the back-up QBs who have played in games so far have completed over 70% of their passes with 13TDs and 3 INTs. Suggesting, of course, that what we are saying need to be carefully measured against the competition on the field.
You're either quoting it wrong or it's false because it doesn't take much digging to find more than 3 ints thrown by 2nd string qbs in the preseason thus far. Hell, that's Haskins + Rosen combine...
Funny that you mentioned that about Darnold. I sort of had the same reaction. I still saw some poor footwork/mild happy feet that would bother me as a Jets fan.
Gase still has work to do with his prized pupil...
You're either quoting it wrong or it's false because it doesn't take much digging to find more than 3 ints thrown by 2nd string qbs in the preseason thus far. Hell, that's Haskins + Rosen combine...
I'll see if I can figure that specific behind what DO said. He said it with a lot of confidence - # of passes/# of completions/etc.
None of these folks is really comfortable saying: " Cant tell yet"
Or in fairness, their job pushes them to make controversial statements with little evidence.
That's not true of us on BBI
Honestly, the difference between executing that string of plays in the first pre-season and playoff speed good defenses has left many a prospect stranded ( and many a very good QB needing more than one chance to tweak and speed their game and recognition skills).
Its great start. That's great for us. Layering more meaning pro and con is too often trying to keep a consistent posture with ones prior statements ( especially if its media.)
All the data at this time is up for wide interpretation. Watching people torturing the data into confessing their first emotion ( and that's what a first take is) can be entertaining. Witness Rameses Barden or Washington or or or or.
Anyone who works in even a mid size company sees the same everyday. Every chart drives to the upper right corner. Starting next year.
Its just hard to be patient. And its hard to be uncertain for long without trying to hard to fill in the pixels into a clear picture
He didn't have the outside edge where the ball was thrown.
Think though. People arguing over a preseason throw by a rookie QB because a dingleberry can't get over a white guy was drafted over Haskins like he is the next Marino.
You're either quoting it wrong or it's false because it doesn't take much digging to find more than 3 ints thrown by 2nd string qbs in the preseason thus far. Hell, that's Haskins + Rosen combine...
I re-listened to Orlavsky interview. He said for the back-up QBs who played Thursday night, they were a combined 236 for 329, 13TDs and 3 INTs. Said most of the back-ups QBs played mostly with starters and the defenses were mostly 2nd string. Not sure how to verify that.
One thing I omitted - Orlavsky said the Jets has a rookie corner and two rookie safeties on the TD play...one rookie from Akron, one from Arkansas..
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You're either quoting it wrong or it's false because it doesn't take much digging to find more than 3 ints thrown by 2nd string qbs in the preseason thus far. Hell, that's Haskins + Rosen combine...
I re-listened to Orlavsky interview. He said for the back-up QBs who played Thursday night, they were a combined 236 for 329, 13TDs and 3 INTs. Said most of the back-ups QBs played mostly with starters and the defenses were mostly 2nd string. Not sure how to verify that.
One thing I omitted - Orlavsky said the Jets has a rookie corner and two rookie safeties on the TD play...one rookie from Akron, one from Arkansas..
Honestly if you're not interested more in being right than the Giants being good why would you try so fucking hard to discredit Jones. Are you just a miserable person who wants to troll this site?
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You're either quoting it wrong or it's false because it doesn't take much digging to find more than 3 ints thrown by 2nd string qbs in the preseason thus far. Hell, that's Haskins + Rosen combine...
I re-listened to Orlavsky interview. He said for the back-up QBs who played Thursday night, they were a combined 236 for 329, 13TDs and 3 INTs. Said most of the back-ups QBs played mostly with starters and the defenses were mostly 2nd string. Not sure how to verify that.
One thing I omitted - Orlavsky said the Jets has a rookie corner and two rookie safeties on the TD play...one rookie from Akron, one from Arkansas..
Grier, Haskins and Rosen had a combined 4 interceptions on Thursday night off the top of my head.
Honestly if you're not interested more in being right than the Giants being good why would you try so fucking hard to discredit Jones. Are you just a miserable person who wants to troll this site?
This is largely a debate site. I heard interesting commentary the last two days about the Jones TD. It caught my attention because it was something I didn't notice or even think about. So I posted it. If you have a hard time dealing with it, that's on you.
I do like to kick it around and have lively debate, but this topic was completely nefarious. Frankly, I think the problem is Carter as the messenger. Not me. And too many people unable to get past Carter's pre-draft commentary.
As for the my motives to troll, be right, etc, I simply have nothing to add. It's a boring, baseless take.
I thought I heard Shurmur intimate that while the play worked it was not necessarily where the ball should have gone given the risk/reward. As said here the TE was open and an easier play.
Regarding Carter. He really is an idiot. Calling the Giants racist when the man who ran the Giants along with his right hand man for years are both African American? Carter has had it in for the Giants since his playing days. Remember his comments about Sehorn when he got his large contract?
Same guy who advised NFL players in training camp sessions that the most important thing when going out as a group is to have a designated Fall Guy in the event trouble breaks out. Didn't see him for awhile after that in NFL advisory sessions.
Stupid is as stupid does.
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gave a very fair assessment of what he saw. Thursday night, my son said the exact same thing about the TD throw. Even if you disagree, why in the world would you call him a douche. His overall comments on the night for DJ were appropriately critical and did not diminish what DJ accomplished.
I'm going to assume that you didn't hear his comments calling the Giants a racist organization who wouldn't have taken Jones if he was African American because that's why everyone is calling him a douche...
I thought I heard Shurmur intimate that while the play worked it was not necessarily where the ball should have gone given the risk/reward. As said here the TE was open and an easier play.
Regarding Carter. He really is an idiot. Calling the Giants racist when the man who ran the Giants along with his right hand man for years are both African American? Carter has had it in for the Giants since his playing days. Remember his comments about Sehorn when he got his large contract?
Same guy who advised NFL players in training camp sessions that the most important thing when going out as a group is to have a designated Fall Guy in the event trouble breaks out. Didn't see him for awhile after that in NFL advisory sessions.
Stupid is as stupid does.
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gave a very fair assessment of what he saw. Thursday night, my son said the exact same thing about the TD throw. Even if you disagree, why in the world would you call him a douche. His overall comments on the night for DJ were appropriately critical and did not diminish what DJ accomplished.
I'm going to assume that you didn't hear his comments calling the Giants a racist organization who wouldn't have taken Jones if he was African American because that's why everyone is calling him a douche...
Grier, Haskins and Rosen had a combined 4 interceptions on Thursday night off the top of my head.
Is Grier the actual back-up?
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Honestly if you're not interested more in being right than the Giants being good why would you try so fucking hard to discredit Jones. Are you just a miserable person who wants to troll this site?
This is largely a debate site. I heard interesting commentary the last two days about the Jones TD. It caught my attention because it was something I didn't notice or even think about. So I posted it. If you have a hard time dealing with it, that's on you.
I do like to kick it around and have lively debate, but this topic was completely nefarious. Frankly, I think the problem is Carter as the messenger. Not me. And too many people unable to get past Carter's pre-draft commentary.
As for the my motives to troll, be right, etc, I simply have nothing to add. It's a boring, baseless take.
You keep bringing up people to corroborate the point. If your intent was just debate why would you try so hard to corroborate this point?
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Grier, Haskins and Rosen had a combined 4 interceptions on Thursday night off the top of my head.
Is Grier the actual back-up?
I assumed he meant the 2nd qb to come into the game. It seems like he’s twisting stats to fit a narrative. I didn’t listen to him so i don’t know what that narrative is but for example, Joe Webb threw 2 interceptions Thursday night and was the only qb on Houston that took a snap. McCarron is listed as their #2 but is out for the preseason and one would think unlikely then to make the team.
For this narrative to come out this way, he was hoping Jones laid an egg and Haskins played great.
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You're either quoting it wrong or it's false because it doesn't take much digging to find more than 3 ints thrown by 2nd string qbs in the preseason thus far. Hell, that's Haskins + Rosen combine...
I re-listened to Orlavsky interview. He said for the back-up QBs who played Thursday night, they were a combined 236 for 329, 13TDs and 3 INTs. Said most of the back-ups QBs played mostly with starters and the defenses were mostly 2nd string. Not sure how to verify that.
One thing I omitted - Orlavsky said the Jets has a rookie corner and two rookie safeties on the TD play...one rookie from Akron, one from Arkansas..
He was wrong. You have two thrown by Haskins plus one by Ballentine and one by Carlock. That's four on Thursday night in just two games. There were others as well.
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At the end of the video, CC says that he could see why he was a first-round pick.
Good point. Carter said that now that Jones in actually in the league he will only evaluate what he sees and not go back to his pre-draft analysis of Jones's play at Duke.
I wonder if he will still think DJ is white.
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In comment 14526266 BestFeature said:
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Honestly if you're not interested more in being right than the Giants being good why would you try so fucking hard to discredit Jones. Are you just a miserable person who wants to troll this site?
This is largely a debate site. I heard interesting commentary the last two days about the Jones TD. It caught my attention because it was something I didn't notice or even think about. So I posted it. If you have a hard time dealing with it, that's on you.
I do like to kick it around and have lively debate, but this topic was completely nefarious. Frankly, I think the problem is Carter as the messenger. Not me. And too many people unable to get past Carter's pre-draft commentary.
As for the my motives to troll, be right, etc, I simply have nothing to add. It's a boring, baseless take.
You keep bringing up people to corroborate the point. If your intent was just debate why would you try so hard to corroborate this point?
ditto but ten times more to you -- with you throwing darts about people who complain suggesting they want the team to fail or miserable. It borders on lunacy all because poor little you feels like posters have to fit perfectly in how you view things.
I imagine he might offer some caveats, but I also imagine they won't be nearly as antagonistic as people seem to think they are.
Jones is going to take his licks as being over drafted, but lets not start making excuses b/c you don't like him
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In comment 14526285 Strahan91 said:
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Grier, Haskins and Rosen had a combined 4 interceptions on Thursday night off the top of my head.
Is Grier the actual back-up?
I assumed he meant the 2nd qb to come into the game. It seems like he’s twisting stats to fit a narrative. I didn’t listen to him so i don’t know what that narrative is but for example, Joe Webb threw 2 interceptions Thursday night and was the only qb on Houston that took a snap. McCarron is listed as their #2 but is out for the preseason and one would think unlikely then to make the team.
Maybe. I'll dig into it later. DOrlo did specifically say Thursday night.
I imagine he might offer some caveats, but I also imagine they won't be nearly as antagonistic as people seem to think they are.
I would guess well over half the poster didn't watch the link. No surprise.
Carter is very complimentary about Jones and says he is willing to wipe the slate clean.
The bottom line is, at least for this one night, Jones was the best of the three QBs. And nobody on the broadcast would say it.
You keep bringing up people to corroborate the point. If your intent was just debate why would you try so hard to corroborate this point?
My intent was to add more color and context to the discussion.
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You keep bringing up people to corroborate the point. If your intent was just debate why would you try so hard to corroborate this point?
My intent was to add more color and context to the discussion.
The bottom line is, at least for this one night, Jones was the best of the three QBs. And nobody on the broadcast would say it.
Carter is Mr. Buckeye. They stick together.
Imagine if Jones went to Michigan... ;)
Jones was good that game. Not amazing. Even Cosell said they gave Jones a simple job, and he executed it. everything was basically one read, scripted. it doesn't tell you that much.
but he passed the hurdle. so far so good. hopefully he keeps it up.
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His first words were: "He's had a good training camp, and you can see that transferred over to the game..."
I imagine he might offer some caveats, but I also imagine they won't be nearly as antagonistic as people seem to think they are.
I would guess well over half the poster didn't watch the link. No surprise.
Carter is very complimentary about Jones and says he is willing to wipe the slate clean.
seriously.. unless carter licks his balls guys here aren't going to be happy..
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In comment 14526287 bw in dc said:
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In comment 14526266 BestFeature said:
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Honestly if you're not interested more in being right than the Giants being good why would you try so fucking hard to discredit Jones. Are you just a miserable person who wants to troll this site?
This is largely a debate site. I heard interesting commentary the last two days about the Jones TD. It caught my attention because it was something I didn't notice or even think about. So I posted it. If you have a hard time dealing with it, that's on you.
I do like to kick it around and have lively debate, but this topic was completely nefarious. Frankly, I think the problem is Carter as the messenger. Not me. And too many people unable to get past Carter's pre-draft commentary.
As for the my motives to troll, be right, etc, I simply have nothing to add. It's a boring, baseless take.
You keep bringing up people to corroborate the point. If your intent was just debate why would you try so hard to corroborate this point?
ditto but ten times more to you -- with you throwing darts about people who complain suggesting they want the team to fail or miserable. It borders on lunacy all because poor little you feels like posters have to fit perfectly in how you view things.
God you're a miserable person. I'm glad I only know some of you on the internet.
There are options to have a computer mobily nowadays.
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God you're a miserable person. I'm glad I only know some of you on the internet.
God more cliches and just plain ignorance from posters like you. Ofc anyone who complains about their team before season starts in which projected season is msot predicted at 6-10 during the year then they "must be a miserable person." So says the judgemental cheerleading fans like you.
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In comment 14526323 giantstock said:
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God you're a miserable person. I'm glad I only know some of you on the internet.
God more cliches and just plain ignorance from posters like you. Ofc anyone who complains about their team before season starts in which projected season is msot predicted at 6-10 during the year then they "must be a miserable person." So says the judgemental cheerleading fans like you.
No, anyone that complains about their rookie QB who went 5 for 5, a TD, and a perfect passer rating is a miserable person.
I have heard others say things differently. Again he went five for five and a touchdown. That is all that matters, the rest is bunk.
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In comment 14526427 BestFeature said:
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In comment 14526323 giantstock said:
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God you're a miserable person. I'm glad I only know some of you on the internet.
God more cliches and just plain ignorance from posters like you. Ofc anyone who complains about their team before season starts in which projected season is msot predicted at 6-10 during the year then they "must be a miserable person." So says the judgemental cheerleading fans like you.
No, anyone that complains about their rookie QB who went 5 for 5, a TD, and a perfect passer rating is a miserable person.
Please provide the link where I complained about Brown on Thursday night? All my posts said he was good. But keep acting like a complete nutjob and invent things I said but didn't. That's what you cheerleading posters tend to do.
He didn't have the outside edge where the ball was thrown.
Think though. People arguing over a preseason throw by a rookie QB because a dingleberry can't get over a white guy was drafted over Haskins like he is the next Marino.
Sorry brother... but that DB was in perfect position to intercept the ball. I played back there long enough to know. Not only that, it would have been an easy INT too. The guy was just doing his best Eli Apple impersonation.
This does not mean that Jones did not have a nice drive. He absolutely did. I am exited about seeing more of him. You CAN be objective here and say he looked very good in his first NFL action. Huge difference between what we saw from him vs the first action from some of our prior QB draft picks. Saying one of his passes should have been intercepted is NOT shitting on the guy.
Finally, about your last comment... so you think Cris Carter is a racist?
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He didn't have the outside edge where the ball was thrown.
Think though. People arguing over a preseason throw by a rookie QB because a dingleberry can't get over a white guy was drafted over Haskins like he is the next Marino.
Sorry brother... but that DB was in perfect position to intercept the ball. I played back there long enough to know. Not only that, it would have been an easy INT too. The guy was just doing his best Eli Apple impersonation.
This does not mean that Jones did not have a nice drive. He absolutely did. I am exited about seeing more of him. You CAN be objective here and say he looked very good in his first NFL action. Huge difference between what we saw from him vs the first action from some of our prior QB draft picks. Saying one of his passes should have been intercepted is NOT shitting on the guy.
Finally, about your last comment... so you think Cris Carter is a racist?
There was an article in the USA Today on Friday with a snippet of an interview with the DB on that play. He was very complimentary of Jones and said that it was a perfect throw that he put in a place only his receiver could get to it. He never once indicated that he should have intercepted the ball.
We can argue about this all day long from our couches but the defender on the play seemingly disagrees with your assessment that it was an easy interception
There was an article in the USA Today on Friday with a snippet of an interview with the DB on that play. He was very complimentary of Jones and said that it was a perfect throw that he put in a place only his receiver could get to it. He never once indicated that he should have intercepted the ball.
We can argue about this all day long from our couches but the defender on the play seemingly disagrees with your assessment that it was an easy interception
We can disagree on that. Really is a good thing to have a healthy debate here.
That DB is the last guy to comment on whether he could have intercepted the pass... Why? because he was the only person (when you count the other players, coaches, pfficials, fans, and people watching on TV) who did not see the ball from the moment it left Jone's hand until the point where our WR caught it.
He really is the only one (besides people who were not at the game or watching the game) who did not see the pass. The ball almost hit the defender... that is how close it was to him. Watch the replay in the link below and hit the pause button at the appropriate time and see.
Really funny when you think about it that way. What did you expect the guy to say? yeah I should have had it and I hope I don't get cut tomorrow?
watch it again - ( New Window )
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He didn't have the outside edge where the ball was thrown.
Think though. People arguing over a preseason throw by a rookie QB because a dingleberry can't get over a white guy was drafted over Haskins like he is the next Marino.
Sorry brother... but that DB was in perfect position to intercept the ball. I played back there long enough to know. Not only that, it would have been an easy INT too. The guy was just doing his best Eli Apple impersonation.
This does not mean that Jones did not have a nice drive. He absolutely did. I am exited about seeing more of him. You CAN be objective here and say he looked very good in his first NFL action. Huge difference between what we saw from him vs the first action from some of our prior QB draft picks. Saying one of his passes should have been intercepted is NOT shitting on the guy.
Finally, about your last comment... so you think Cris Carter is a racist?
Cris Carter was not alone in maintaining that the Giants passed on Haskins because he was black, and chose Daniel Jones because he was essentially an Eli clone, white, soft-spoken, etc. Does that make Carter a racist? I don't think so. But I do think it makes him a pretty poor analyst, with an obvious bias and a narrative he seems intent on pushing.
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There was an article in the USA Today on Friday with a snippet of an interview with the DB on that play. He was very complimentary of Jones and said that it was a perfect throw that he put in a place only his receiver could get to it. He never once indicated that he should have intercepted the ball.
We can argue about this all day long from our couches but the defender on the play seemingly disagrees with your assessment that it was an easy interception
We can disagree on that. Really is a good thing to have a healthy debate here.
That DB is the last guy to comment on whether he could have intercepted the pass... Why? because he was the only person (when you count the other players, coaches, pfficials, fans, and people watching on TV) who did not see the ball from the moment it left Jone's hand until the point where our WR caught it.
He really is the only one (besides people who were not at the game or watching the game) who did not see the pass. The ball almost hit the defender... that is how close it was to him. Watch the replay in the link below and hit the pause button at the appropriate time and see.
Really funny when you think about it that way. What did you expect the guy to say? yeah I should have had it and I hope I don't get cut tomorrow? watch it again - ( New Window )
There is nothing wrong with admitting he missed a play or he should have played it better. He didn't say that. Peppers said he missed an interception. Ballentine admitted he needed to correct his technique on the pass interference. Daniel Jones admitted he needed to correct some things like motioning the tight end.
The defensive back was trailing the wide receiver and was playing catch up. He would have to be one hell of an athlete to stop on a dime, twist his body around and be in position to play the ball.
I honestly can not recall so much being made of one play. We can play the what if game with every player on almost every player. Daniel jones made a great pass to the end zone and the wide receiver caught it...end of story
Carter may not be biased, but what he does is take a very complex topic and just pick one portion of it and focus only on that. It’s flawed and useless for people trying to understand, but it is entertaining for people looking to be entertained.
If you like what Carter brings that’s fine. You are entertained and that is his goal. His hot takes just don’t belong in an actual discussion because that isn’t what he is doing.
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In comment 14526235 Toth029 said:
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He didn't have the outside edge where the ball was thrown.
Think though. People arguing over a preseason throw by a rookie QB because a dingleberry can't get over a white guy was drafted over Haskins like he is the next Marino.
Sorry brother... but that DB was in perfect position to intercept the ball. I played back there long enough to know. Not only that, it would have been an easy INT too. The guy was just doing his best Eli Apple impersonation.
This does not mean that Jones did not have a nice drive. He absolutely did. I am exited about seeing more of him. You CAN be objective here and say he looked very good in his first NFL action. Huge difference between what we saw from him vs the first action from some of our prior QB draft picks. Saying one of his passes should have been intercepted is NOT shitting on the guy.
Finally, about your last comment... so you think Cris Carter is a racist?
Cris Carter was not alone in maintaining that the Giants passed on Haskins because he was black, and chose Daniel Jones because he was essentially an Eli clone, white, soft-spoken, etc. Does that make Carter a racist? I don't think so. But I do think it makes him a pretty poor analyst, with an obvious bias and a narrative he seems intent on pushing.
FWIW, I actually do think CC is a racist.
FWIW, I actually do think CC is a racist.
He very well may be a racist. Not sure. I was just asking what the other poster thought...
There's at least one poster, it might be Sonic Youth, who has actually said that due to institutional racism, that blacks cannot by definition be racist.
But there is a difference between seeing discrimination at the slightest hint vs. being racist against white people.
There's at least one poster, it might be Sonic Youth, who has actually said that due to institutional racism, that blacks cannot by definition be racist.
FYI, there's a significant subset of the population that believes this. Mostly white people in their 20s and 30s that live on the coasts.
Carter is and always has been severly biased against the Giants, going back to the 41-0 rout. He can't help it, and the programing managers are ultimately responsible for permitting this bias while curtailing others. But they think thats where they get the best ratings....
It's similar to Cawherd and Mike Greenberg
but he didn't.
and in the end it was 1 "bad" throw in a preseason game...
but he didn't.
and in the end it was 1 "bad" throw in a preseason game...
Good QBs take advantage of bad defensive players.
but he didn't.
and in the end it was a Touchdown throw in a preseason game...
[edited for accuracy]
When Landon Collins dropped the INT against the Pats, was that a criticism of Brady? No. It was about Collins sucking at securing the ball.
Here - a defender didn't even locate the ball, which is exactly the type of scenario a QB takes advantage of.
Fans want their ideas about the draft to be proven right.
None of it is based in reality.
It is it's own form of show business.
I'm sure if the interception wouldn't be his fault, Cris Carter and bw will talk about it. /Sarcasm
Exactly. I'm really not sure why Carter's comment is controversial or inflammatory.
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That's going to happen to all the qbs
Exactly. I'm really not sure why Carter's comment is controversial or inflammatory.
Well, since he isn't doing the same exercise for the other QB's - do you think that might have something to do with it??
Great pass regardless.
Pinpoint precision has to qualify as a "plus-skill," no?<sarcasm~>
That's the problem - the typical problem, actually - around here. The play has been misconstrued as a ding against Jones. But's not.
It's an analysis of the play, and how the success of the play, while good to see, would very likely not have been a TD/completion in a real NFL game. Just context. But the "how dare you crowd" can't seem to handle that, so they look for ways to kill the messenger. In this case, I guess Carter is a racist and still resents the blowout in the 2000 NFC CG.
I don't think you can name any. And it is still a great stretch to say that ball would likely be picked in a regular game
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Is part of the conversation here. How is it a negative against Jones?
That's the problem - the typical problem, actually - around here. The play has been misconstrued as a ding against Jones. But's not.
It's an analysis of the play, and how the success of the play, while good to see, would very likely not have been a TD/completion in a real NFL game. Just context. But the "how dare you crowd" can't seem to handle that, so they look for ways to kill the messenger. In this case, I guess Carter is a racist and still resents the blowout in the 2000 NFC CG.
I think, objectively, Jones received much more scorn from CC for throwing his TD pass, than Haskins did for throwing his. The difference being, that Jones threw his TD pass to his own team.
Well, one of the differences, anyway.
Caveat. I know Sharpe is black, so I understand his view may be racially motivated. ;)
Sharpe - ( New Window )
Did you listen? Sharpe says the TD pass was essentially poor D - the corner sunk too low in coverage and the S was too slow getting over...
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In comment 14528264 Sneakers O'toole said:
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That's going to happen to all the qbs
Exactly. I'm really not sure why Carter's comment is controversial or inflammatory.
Well, since he isn't doing the same exercise for the other QB's - do you think that might have something to do with it??
Did he miss a glaring opportunity to? I'm not sure if another rookie QB threw a similar pass that is being lauded but may have bee frisky vs a starter.
How many times are TD passes scrutinized to the point of hypotheticals and what could have beens?
The DB never turned around, yet the supposition is not just that a starter would've turned around, but also intercepted the ball.
How the fuck does somebody watch that play and come to that conclusion?
Forget the interception prediction. At the very least, with a competent, seasoned S, the play should have easily been broken up.
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It's a conversation about some hypothetical play against a hypothetical DB playing out in a fashion different than reality.
Did you listen? Sharpe says the TD pass was essentially poor D - the corner sunk too low in coverage and the S was too slow getting over...
Which is bullshit because the corner was never going to be in that play. Tight end ran to his responsibility. The safety gambled and lost.
Forget the interception prediction. At the very least, with a competent, seasoned S, the play should have easily been broken up.
The safety gambled on that play trying to make a pick. DJ made him pay.
He's become Matt in Syracuse.
Forget the interception prediction. At the very least, with a competent, seasoned S, the play should have easily been broken up.
What?? You do realize the safety was in decent coverage but didn't look back for the ball. It isn't like a seasoned safety was going to be perched back there waiting.
How many times are TD passes scrutinized to the point of hypotheticals and what could have beens?
This is a bit unique though. This wasn't a gratuitous discussion that occurred in a vacuum... it was mentioned in the course of discussing how a rookie QB looked, and seemed to be little more than mentioning he might want to exercise caution against the likes of Jamal Adams.
It isn't a war crime.
What?? You do realize the safety was in decent coverage but didn't look back for the ball. It isn't like a seasoned safety was going to be perched back there waiting.
No, I don't realize that at all. How can Ramirez be in "decent coverage" when's he's actually trailing the route? He's not looking back because he's beaten, and desperately trying to get back to save the play.
If you can actually seriously say Jamaal Adams couldn't read that route combination in his sleep, and make a better play than an undrafted rookie from Arkansas, than I regret to say the wrong poster has been called Matt in Syracuse...
C'mon - tghis has been really put unecessarily under the microscope
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What?? You do realize the safety was in decent coverage but didn't look back for the ball. It isn't like a seasoned safety was going to be perched back there waiting.
No, I don't realize that at all. How can Ramirez be in "decent coverage" when's he's actually trailing the route? He's not looking back because he's beaten, and desperately trying to get back to save the play.
If you can actually seriously say Jamaal Adams couldn't read that route combination in his sleep, and make a better play than an undrafted rookie from Arkansas, than I regret to say the wrong poster has been called Matt in Syracuse..
would he have thrown it if the safety was in great position?
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In comment 14528277 Sneakers O'toole said:
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Is part of the conversation here. How is it a negative against Jones?
That's the problem - the typical problem, actually - around here. The play has been misconstrued as a ding against Jones. But's not.
It's an analysis of the play, and how the success of the play, while good to see, would very likely not have been a TD/completion in a real NFL game. Just context. But the "how dare you crowd" can't seem to handle that, so they look for ways to kill the messenger. In this case, I guess Carter is a racist and still resents the blowout in the 2000 NFC CG.
I think, objectively, Jones received much more scorn from CC for throwing his TD pass, than Haskins did for throwing his. The difference being, that Jones threw his TD pass to his own team.
Well, one of the differences, anyway.
I hadn't watched him deliver his comments about Haskins until now... while he offered some compliments, he also basically asserted that if Haskins doesn't learn to protect the ball, his teammates will hate him.
C'mon - tghis has been really put unecessarily under the microscope
I agree with one part - this has gotten way too deep in the weeds.
In all the irrational exuberance, I thought it would be interesting to share views I didn’t expect to hear - that the TD pass may have been less about Jones and more about poor D. And when I heard that from four different sources, it seemed reasonable, especially the more I looked at it...
Only a select few who have turned this forum into a clusterfuck. Notice it’s the same group in EVERY thread.
That’s why I classify them as “fans.”
I shudder to think what some of you guys are going to be like when he throws a fucking incompletion against the Bears on Friday. Or worse... an interception.
He was better than anyone here assumed he was going to be in game 1. We don't need to turn it into anything more than that. Really.
All anyone should want to see now is him build on that and continue to make progress each week. There's really no need to micro-analyze every breath he took on the field so that we can find reasons to throw cold water all over it.
If he throws an INT, they will complain he should have taken a sack, thrown it away, or it was a game changing INT.
Rinse and repeat.
Our motto is one view. And one view only.
And please see our charter on what's required to be a fan.
And yet, he received the worst commentary.
That's a hoot.
That's a hoot.
It's not a question of not drinking the kool-aid or even skepticism. It's flat out, ever-present, unflinching, "they suck" about every single thing Giants.
And, it's 100% schtick.
Our motto is one view. And one view only.
And please see our charter on what's required to be a fan.
You openly admit that you enjoy shitting on the Giants and management when they are losing. yet when they had their run years ago, you were nowhere to be seen.
You do only have 1 view. Its boring. Its tiresome.
The throw was a great one. If the defender is trailing and not looking, then you throw it 10x out of 10. You can make the case its the same as throwing a back shoulder throw in the end zone. Or underthrowing a deep ball to force a PI.
Christ.
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Oh, I get it.... you're the better "fan" because you pose as the "realist" who doesn't drink the kool-aid and is skeptical of everything.
That's a hoot.
It's not a question of not drinking the kool-aid or even skepticism. It's flat out, ever-present, unflinching, "they suck" about every single thing Giants.
And, it's 100% schtick.
Of course. It's why there was no bw to be found when the Giants were winning Super Bowls.
Some posters have no ammo if they can't criticize and complain.
You openly admit that you enjoy shitting on the Giants and management when they are losing. yet when they had their run years ago, you were nowhere to be seen.
I do? Now, posters have tried to put those words in my mouth, but I’ve never said any of that. I’ve written how much I enjoyed the Camelot Era of Giants football - ‘84 to ‘ 90 - and how I long for those days and consistency. And how much I disapprove of the way Jints Central conducts football business. They are responsible for this new dark age...
As for my hiatus, I’ve explained that. And it absolutely zero to do with winning SBs. Purely coincidental.
When Landon Collins dropped the INT against the Pats, was that a criticism of Brady? No. It was about Collins sucking at securing the ball.
Here - a defender didn't even locate the ball, which is exactly the type of scenario a QB takes advantage of.
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You openly admit that you enjoy shitting on the Giants and management when they are losing. yet when they had their run years ago, you were nowhere to be seen.
I do? Now, posters have tried to put those words in my mouth, but I’ve never said any of that. I’ve written how much I enjoyed the Camelot Era of Giants football - ‘84 to ‘ 90 - and how I long for those days and consistency. And how much I disapprove of the way Jints Central conducts football business. They are responsible for this new dark age...
As for my hiatus, I’ve explained that. And it absolutely zero to do with winning SBs. Purely coincidental.
That's a hoot.
No, apparently you are. And your ilk. I never question a poster’s fandom. But I’m cool with that. I get your self-righteousness.
However, I’m never going to change trying to look at things through a different lens. If it’s thought provoking, and last time I checked this is a debate site, than I’m going for it...
You aren’t here to debate. You’re here to rule up posters like thegratefulhead said. Pretty sad if you ask me.
Giant fans are easy to troll and you enjoy it. Someone married into our family that is exactly like you. I am familiar with your shtick.
My condolences to your family... ;)
You aren’t here to debate. You’re here to rule up posters like thegratefulhead said. Pretty sad if you ask me.
I like arc. Seems bright and thoughtful.
Rides the fence too much for my tastes, but a good read on most days.
For the weaker posters throwing stones its par for the course, but for some of the better ones its disappointing
But it is pretty funny to see - especially when one of the posters gets questioned in any way. hahaha
I think that the person who should feel the most disrespected is his co-host. Geez.
But that's why I don't watch shows like this. They're aimed at getting people riled up.
I must say it's been a while since I read something that so acutely captures a pot calling a kettle black than this...
You're a pisser, man. Don't ever change.
But it is pretty funny to see - especially when one of the posters gets questioned in any way. hahaha
how cute...and we know you need the support
Jan, wear this badge with pride!
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they follow each other around like puppy dogs, supporting each other at every turn. Hell, maybe even some of them are besties.
I must say it's been a while since I read something that so acutely captures a pot calling a kettle black than this...
You're a pisser, man. Don't ever change.
He's right to a certain extent though. If we didn't know and sometime love you, you'd be in for a much more strident time here.
Jan, wear this badge with pride!
Umm, do I have to? :D
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get the initiation ceremony ready for Jan in DC
Jan, wear this badge with pride!
Umm, do I have to? :D
too late buddy. in for a pinch in for a pound!
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they follow each other around like puppy dogs, supporting each other at every turn. Hell, maybe even some of them are besties.
I must say it's been a while since I read something that so acutely captures a pot calling a kettle black than this...
You're a pisser, man. Don't ever change.
Lol, who the hell do I follow around?
Just look after I posted this, the three musketeers or stooges more likely, come running. It’s as predictable as they come.
He's right to a certain extent though. If we didn't know and sometime love you, you'd be in for a much more strident time here.
Interesting. Have I crossed some BBI mainstream lines I don't or should know about?
you can't win with some on here...
you can't win with some on here...
Here's your gold sticker. Happy now?
Here's your gold sticker. Happy now?
We only hand out gold stars on this side of the aisle.
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Here's your gold sticker. Happy now?
We only hand out gold stars on this side of the aisle.
Gold stars are for adults, stickers for juveniles.
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You do realize that Arc is one of the better posters in this site and is as even kee as they come?
You aren’t here to debate. You’re here to rule up posters like thegratefulhead said. Pretty sad if you ask me.
I like arc. Seems bright and thoughtful.
Rides the fence too much for my tastes, but a good read on most days.
Lol... well, anyone who doesn't dismiss any ounce of positivity will fall under that category for you.
I think it's easy to just be skeptical and dismissive at every turn. Your role here takes little effort. It's what radar did for years with slightly more tact. Wherever the consensus zigs, just... zag.
As long as you always stay on the opposite end of the majority, you'll always have people to argue with and you'll always stay occupied here. It wouldn't be fun for you if you actually gave Jints Central credit for anything or agreed with a majority take - so, you choose not to. You'd have no way to get your kicks here, you'd be bored, and you'd probably have nothing to do.
"Riding the fence" can also just be called trying to better understand an opposing viewpoint or consider that perhaps my own opinions could be incorrect - I find humility to be an important quality.
Beckham is a good example. I spent years pretty dug in on defending him. I insisted that his off field behavior was not worth all of the bellyaching and had little to no impact on his performance and was pretty vocal in opposing the posters who weren't fans of his. I didn't love certain things he did - but generally speaking, I felt like the talent outweighed the other stuff.
Well, when the smoke cleared, it seemed perhaps his presence was more of a negative than I had originally thought. And maybe it wasn't all just harmless. From a team perspective, his being here didn't seem to be helping anything.
The more that was revealed about things he said or did or how he handled himself, the more I felt silly for having bought into his good seed act in camp last year just so he'd get paid. I obviously didn't know all of the facts there, but I often dug my heels in on it anyway.
Tangent aside; the point is... I think there's often this misguided notion that there's something admirable about grasping onto an opinion and sticking to it no matter who piles on you or disagrees with you.
In some cases, that's all well and good. In others, it's being stubborn and not allowing yourself to view something objectively because being right becomes more important than being informed.
Daniel Jones has become the perfect example of this. In a performance that was nearly impossible to nitpick, many of those who didn't like Gettleman drafting him still found a way.
5 passes is all he threw. He completed all 5 and the last one went for a TD. And yet, pages worth of putting the defensive positioning under a microscope and dissecting every fraction of velocity the ball was thrown with ensued so that people could do mental gymnastics to find something to argue about.
There's nothing wrong with letting go of the seemingly inherent need to be right all the time. It would serve much of this board well. But I guess that would also eliminate a lot of the vitriol and day-long arguments that people seem to feed on here. Just my .02.
You actually have it backwards. It's much easier to play "your role". To be deferential and trust nearly everything this organization does.
I really struggle why more people don't actually have more curiosity the other way and ask, "Gee, does that really make sense here? Does that idea really fit?" Are they really looking at league trends? Are they studying how other rosters are assembled? Are the right mix of decision makers in place. Etc. You get the drill...
I have that curiosity (I do risk management for a living, so I have to always think about the downside...). And having been a fan for so long, and having a fairly good understanding of this team's history, I am much less trusting of the characters who run this organization.
Look, we all have our perspectives and history with the team. So that's where these splits likely occur.
I guess I have this history as being "negative" and people get pissed off when I start to raise doubt.
Like this Jones TD thing. I have mentioned several times prior, that I came away very impressed with his performance. But I listened to some other opinions, felt they were compelling (specifically about the TD pass), and decided to inject them into the conversation. Instead of listening, and giving the thought consideration, the usual suspects do what they do - default to their silly preconceived notions and miss the point(s)...Then this cacophony builds and the fun really starts... ;)
Hey, if you prefer the "BigBlueMonolithic" model, you're certainly not alone. There are a lot here that like wrapping themselves in that same echo chamber. I just don't and will continue to fill the responsibilities of my unpaid "role"... ;)
But if you try to explain why an INT or pass may not be Eli's - holy shit. You get called a member of EFC (bw's famous phrase), you are just making excuses for him, it's never Eli's fault, etc.... Even if a HOF says it wasnt his fault - you cant point that out without being ridiculed.
But I guess the "objective" posters are the ones who just pick and choose whats worth arguing over, I guess?
This is getting like a circular error in Excel.
When I realized the civil rights crowd objected, I added other people who concluded the same thing as Carter. But they were summarily dismissed because they weren't interesting enough, or easy to attack - like Carter...
We're not dealing with extraterrestrial life or highly secretive material here - it's a football team. They make some decisions that make sense, they make some that don't.
You seem to be predisposed to assume every decision they make is the wrong one. Is it really that hard to just question everything a team does?
Skepticism takes little effort. Ask why and ask why again.
I also don't defer to everything the Giants do. I've been plenty critical when I've felt criticism was warranted. Read posts of mine from the 2017 season if you'd like. I was killing them and was crushing Reese's drafts after zero-yield after zero-yield.
I think the misconception or disconnect comes in that I don't like to go overboard with spur of the moment, instant reactions to things. I don't just assume a move is bad because it appears to be on the surface. I'll admit it may well be one - but in many cases, there's just no way to know that in that moment.
I was vocally opposed to drafting Daniel Jones at 6 because the sense I got was that we'd have been able to take him @ 17.
Well, as it turned out - based on several reports, that likely was not the case.
Rather than throw an absolute FIT over taking him @ 6, I gave it a minute to breathe and play out and was wiling to hear the reasoning behind it and give him a chance to play before burying him.
Was it the choice I'd have made there? At the time, honestly no. But that's why I'm sitting here and not in an NFL front office.
I get it... this is how you get your kicks. What fun would it be to be agreeable?
You'd get bored... and we can't have that!
Patience is, indeed a virtue. Just not on a message board, I suppose.
For the weaker posters throwing stones its par for the course, but for some of the better ones its disappointing
posting this again in case the speech writers on the BBI circuit missed it the first time...
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what Carter said?
It was incorrect and agenda driven. Other than that, nothing.
I don't think football is for you, sir.
Not even that it exists, but how a pass thrown to a spot where the defender never even looks back to defend is somehow twisted to make it seem like a seasoned pro not only breaks up the pass, but likely intercepts it
You have to question the motivation behind the criticism. That isn't being a homer. It is being rational. Something that the "realists" continually miss.
Does it really impact anything?
Do you think Jints Central is paying attention and making decisions based on his analysis?
Do you think games are won or lost in the media?
If you don't like CC, the best thing you can do to make him go away is not pay attention to him. This constant bellyaching about the media is tiresome.
There are unlimited options for content out there, listen to the guys you think are informative and entertaining and ignore the rest.
Fuck me...
Fuck me...
Its funny how I told you there were certain posters who are besties and always appear to post in the same thread and support one another..... and as I said that... bw, googs, and ron posted within minutes of each other. Now ron is saying "jints central". It isnt coincidental.
I wonder sometimes if we have posters who are on the lines of mmiller/sg0058?
Of course it will be or when OBJ does something great and written about.
and
Sinker
I don't care who you are, when you have a platform to reach a mass audience like Chris Carter does, that accusation is clearly irresponsible AT BEST.
Now he's going to double down on his agenda and slam the kid at every turn to continue to beat that drum?
The Giants organization, and fans, should be irate over this. Defending this creep in any way is unfathomable to me.
Now, those certain posters are accusing the other certain posters of deploying their tactics.
Oh, the sweet irony...
I've got two posts on this thread and neither of them are addressing your circle jerk.
Oncce we start using each others phrases, then you can make fun of us. Again, it took MINUTES for all to respond to my initial statement to back each other up. Shocking, right?
Now, those certain posters are accusing the other certain posters of deploying their tactics.
Oh, the sweet irony...
Thats only because it made no sense back then as it does now. No one follows each other around and agrees with them and uses their sayings like the three stooges.
I know its bad form to go all open kimono, but if you think I didn't explicitly use that term knowing the reaction it would get you aren't paying attention.
Just having some fun with the tribalism on here
Sure thing.
A. If you watch the clip, Carter was very praise worthy of Jones’s performance last Thursday.
B. Carter said he’s willing to wipe the slate clean and now just evaluate Jones as a pro, and table his view of him as a prospect at Duke.
C. In order to confirm A and B, you need to watch the clip.
D. In order to watch the clip to get to A and B, you need to hover over the clip and left click on your mouse.
E. Always happy to help.
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Like I said.... three stooges.
I know its bad form to go all open kimono, but if you think I didn't explicitly use that term knowing the reaction it would get you aren't paying attention.
Just having some fun with the tribalism on here
So if thats the case, my statement if you three following and backing up each other is true since you all responded within minutes? I mean how predictable was that?
I don't care who you are, when you have a platform to reach a mass audience like Chris Carter does, that accusation is clearly irresponsible AT BEST.
Now he's going to double down on his agenda and slam the kid at every turn to continue to beat that drum?
The Giants organization, and fans, should be irate over this. Defending this creep in any way is unfathomable to me.
I'm not defending CC. I'm advocating ignoring him. Its the only real way to silence him. Giving him a bunch of extra clicks by linking his segment and complaining on an online forum isn't going to accomplish your goal.
Sure thing.
A. If you watch the clip, Carter was very praise worthy of Jones’s performance last Thursday.
B. Carter said he’s willing to wipe the slate clean and now just evaluate Jones as a pro, and table his view of him as a prospect at Duke.
C. In order to confirm A and B, you need to watch the clip.
D. In order to watch the clip to get to A and B, you need to hover over the clip and left click on your mouse.
E. Always happy to help.
1. LOL, except for the "but it should have been intercepted". I mean its like the whole dinner experience was great, except the steak was overcooked.
2. Carter's willing to wipe the slate clean unless there is an example to create controversy on an innocent play to make his initial statement right. I mean he made excuses for Haskins and nitpicked Jones, hmmmm...
3. I did watch it.
I mean this nimrod called the Giants and DG racist. And we are going to listen to his nonsense view on a perfectly thrown ball for a TD.
And before you start huffing and puffing again. Any other "analyst" is over analyzing it too.
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In comment 14529912 dep026 said:
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Like I said.... three stooges.
I know its bad form to go all open kimono, but if you think I didn't explicitly use that term knowing the reaction it would get you aren't paying attention.
Just having some fun with the tribalism on here
So if thats the case, my statement if you three following and backing up each other is true since you all responded within minutes? I mean how predictable was that?
Just as predicable as you, FMIC and Arc backing up the other side within minutes.
and
Sinker
And there it is in a nutshell.
You post to bait. bw does as well and at least he admits it (and thankfully disappears completely when the team does well)
Googs - he's just a useless fuckstick whose SOLE purpose of posting here is to troll and bait too.
And when the team starts doing well again - all of your motivation to post disappears.
Just as predicable as you, FMIC and Arc backing up the other side within minutes.
You do realize Arc and I disagreed all last year on the Giants, Beckham, and everything in between? You know FMiC use to call me out for things I said for years?
See you are just throwing shit to the wind because you got called out and the reality set in. I dont follow FMiC and Arc on every thread. I dont agree with them on everything. But since we appear on this thread together, you figure it was smart of you to lump us together.
Guess what, it didnt work.
It's just cringey enough as it is... we probably don't need any additional usage of it here in any context.
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.
Sure thing.
A. If you watch the clip, Carter was very praise worthy of Jones’s performance last Thursday.
B. Carter said he’s willing to wipe the slate clean and now just evaluate Jones as a pro, and table his view of him as a prospect at Duke.
C. In order to confirm A and B, you need to watch the clip.
D. In order to watch the clip to get to A and B, you need to hover over the clip and left click on your mouse.
E. Always happy to help.
I watched it, and addressed it in my first post on this thread. Shoulda, coulda, woulda, didn't intercept it.
Chris Carter will say: Daniel Jones "stared it down". The safety "should" have been wider. Two "could" have intercepted it. A starter "would" have intercepted it. The two guys there "didn't" make the play.
I say: Daniel Jones recognized the coverage, saw the safety lined up inside, recognized that it was open, and made the throw.
As I said in my first post, the whole story is the guy got beat. That's all there is to it. It happens every week in football on every level. You play against who you play against. Who's to say that if the starter was in there and was lined up wider that Daniel Jones wouldn't have looked elsewhere?
Framing the context of what you're saying is important and can go positive, negative, or neutral.
You add in Chris Carter's prior commentary that he now wants to just "dismiss" (calling an entire organization racist is a pretty strong statement to just dismiss), and you get a disingenuous asshole.
I called you out last week for smearing the good name of Dabo Swinney!
I also call out any praise for Michigan!
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Line
and
Sinker
And there it is in a nutshell.
You post to bait. bw does as well and at least he admits it (and thankfully disappears completely when the team does well)
Googs - he's just a useless fuckstick whose SOLE purpose of posting here is to troll and bait too.
And when the team starts doing well again - all of your motivation to post disappears.
I've been doing this Giants message board thing for a long time, starting back on Giants.com before finding this place. I've posted regularly through the ups and downs and will probably continue to do so.
I will both praise and criticize the the team as I see fit (in between making snarky comments to amuse myself)
His opinion doesn't matter whether its for or against the Giants. I couldn't care less how he feels.
I agree, this is much ado about nothing.
However, his statement on the Giants being racist as an organization, in this climate, should be a fireable offense, IMO. There should be no tolerance for such statements with nothing to back them up.
Look forward to seeing Jones more than just one series this next preseason game.
And, of course, the prideful group on BBI that simply will not stand for anyone talking bad about Jones, or even good or neutral it seems...
I don't expect you to grasp the discussion. It revolves around not talking bad about Jones, but why a successful TD pass is being dissected. It is like Carter is bucking for a position with PFF on trying to ascertain blame on a successful play.
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might be looking too strongly at Jones staring down his receiver. That was a precise pass to the pylon in a small window.
Or was he staring at Ellison?
Great pass regardless.
Pinpoint precision has to qualify as a "plus-skill," no?<sarcasm~>
I can't say for certain, but the camera they had focused on Jones it looked like his eyes did not deviate once.
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And, of course, the prideful group on BBI that simply will not stand for anyone talking bad about Jones, or even good or neutral it seems.
I don't expect you to grasp the discussion. It revolves around not talking bad about Jones, but why a successful TD pass is being dissected. It is like Carter is bucking for a position with PFF on trying to ascertain blame on a successful play.
Yeah, like its so complex to keep up with your rants.
I'm sure nobody else with bother you with their comments after the next game...
It took all of 1 minute for me to find a video that probably enraged the Chief fanbase (assumning they're similarly sensitive): https://www.foxsports.com/watch/first-things-first/video/1375780931869
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he started off just fine in that video but he just couldn't help himself. If that was Mahomes making that exact same throw he'd be gushing.
It took all of 1 minute for me to find a video that probably enraged the Chief fanbase (assumning they're similarly sensitive): https://www.foxsports.com/watch/first-things-first/video/1375780931869
I don't think telling Mahomes to protect the ball is the same as saying a good pass should have been picked had a different player been in on the play? That's just bushleague arguing.
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In comment 14530185 UConn4523 said:
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he started off just fine in that video but he just couldn't help himself. If that was Mahomes making that exact same throw he'd be gushing.
It took all of 1 minute for me to find a video that probably enraged the Chief fanbase (assumning they're similarly sensitive): https://www.foxsports.com/watch/first-things-first/video/1375780931869
I don't think telling Mahomes to protect the ball is the same as saying a good pass should have been picked had a different player been in on the play? That's just bushleague arguing.
dude, he actually directly refuted the exact point you just made. he found a clip of CC being very critical of Mahomes, in a game he threw for almost 500 yards and 6 TDs none the less
Nothing bush league about that
He criticized him for ball security...I wonder why? Ohh i know, he had 5 turnovers. So how exactly does that equate to a made up theory about a different player being about to intercept the Jones TD?
So i'll say it again, if Mahomes made that pass my guess is Carter would applaud it.
He criticized him for ball security...I wonder why? Ohh i know, he had 5 turnovers. So how exactly does that equate to a made up theory about a different player being about to intercept the Jones TD?
So i'll say it again, if Mahomes made that pass my guess is Carter would applaud it.
shouldn't the opposite hold true though. Shouldn't CC be minimizing Mahomes mistakes and accentuating his positives to promote his agenda?
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I already addressed it, catch up will you? How come you forgot about the 5 turnovers in that game? Doesn't jive with your argument does it?
He criticized him for ball security...I wonder why? Ohh i know, he had 5 turnovers. So how exactly does that equate to a made up theory about a different player being about to intercept the Jones TD?
So i'll say it again, if Mahomes made that pass my guess is Carter would applaud it.
shouldn't the opposite hold true though. Shouldn't CC be minimizing Mahomes mistakes and accentuating his positives to promote his agenda?
Nope.
Mahomes is white.
This can't be that hard to follow, or is it just me?
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In comment 14530281 UConn4523 said:
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I already addressed it, catch up will you? How come you forgot about the 5 turnovers in that game? Doesn't jive with your argument does it?
He criticized him for ball security...I wonder why? Ohh i know, he had 5 turnovers. So how exactly does that equate to a made up theory about a different player being about to intercept the Jones TD?
So i'll say it again, if Mahomes made that pass my guess is Carter would applaud it.
shouldn't the opposite hold true though. Shouldn't CC be minimizing Mahomes mistakes and accentuating his positives to promote his agenda?
Nope.
Mahomes is white.
is he?
This can't be that hard to follow, or is it just me?
You wont get an argument from me that his argument that a different player lined up in a different spot would lead to an interception is, at best, a stretch (and thats being generous)
Just seems like his shtick if to find negative things to say.
You fuckers sent me down a rabbit hole of watching Cris Carter clips. Not exactly how I planned to spend my afternoon.
That's really the only point i'm trying to make. Carter is a moron, his opinion shouldn't matter to anyone (regardless of fandom). He should be called out for it publicly, wish someone in his profession would do so.
That's really the only point i'm trying to make. Carter is a moron, his opinion shouldn't matter to anyone (regardless of fandom). He should be called out for it publicly, wish someone in his profession would do so.
Agreed, me too.
He crossed the line from schtick to real life, big time.
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In comment 14530284 ron mexico said:
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In comment 14530281 UConn4523 said:
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I already addressed it, catch up will you? How come you forgot about the 5 turnovers in that game? Doesn't jive with your argument does it?
He criticized him for ball security...I wonder why? Ohh i know, he had 5 turnovers. So how exactly does that equate to a made up theory about a different player being about to intercept the Jones TD?
So i'll say it again, if Mahomes made that pass my guess is Carter would applaud it.
shouldn't the opposite hold true though. Shouldn't CC be minimizing Mahomes mistakes and accentuating his positives to promote his agenda?
Nope.
Mahomes is white.
is he?
His dad is black and his mom is white.
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In comment 14530288 Bill L said:
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In comment 14530284 ron mexico said:
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In comment 14530281 UConn4523 said:
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I already addressed it, catch up will you? How come you forgot about the 5 turnovers in that game? Doesn't jive with your argument does it?
He criticized him for ball security...I wonder why? Ohh i know, he had 5 turnovers. So how exactly does that equate to a made up theory about a different player being about to intercept the Jones TD?
So i'll say it again, if Mahomes made that pass my guess is Carter would applaud it.
shouldn't the opposite hold true though. Shouldn't CC be minimizing Mahomes mistakes and accentuating his positives to promote his agenda?
Nope.
Mahomes is white.
is he?
His dad is black and his mom is white.
Really? Didn't know that. Maybe CC only half-criticized him
Mahomes is white.
is he?
His dad is black and his mom is white.
Really? Didn't know that. Maybe CC only half-criticized him
His dad pitched in MLB. Had a short stint with the Mets actually.
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Mahomes is white.
is he?
His dad is black and his mom is white.
Really? Didn't know that. Maybe CC only half-criticized him
His dad pitched in MLB. Had a short stint with the Mets actually.
Geez. He's Pat Mahomes son? I never made the connection. Pitched for the Red Sox too.
Nick Wright understands John Mara’s comments about Daniel Jones, but thinks Giants are living in ‘fantasy land’ - ( New Window )
And, if we win and continue to win, then ELi will continue to play. If we don't, he won't.
It's not rocket science or even basic physics. You don't need to actually be in Los Alamos to understand that. But, maybe getting a little closer might help.
And, if we win and continue to win, then ELi will continue to play. If we don't, he won't.
It's not rocket science or even basic physics. You don't need to actually be in Los Alamos to understand that. But, maybe getting a little closer might help.
You have to admit that a 7-9, 8-8 or even 9-7 and missing the playoffs and Jones gets no playing time is just about the worst possible outcome. And probably the most likely
BTW - I appreciate your area 51 joke
I actually re-watched the clip where Carter enters race into the picture. It sounded like he was referencing some piece of information that Haskins slid because there was doubt about his ability to "comprehend" information. And that really pissed Carter off because (1) he knows Day put in a more complicated offense at OSU to match Haskins's ability to absorb information and (2) he's sensitive to that stuff because he's black.
The prologue to that was Carter saying if Haskins put up the numbers that Jones did at Duke, and finished 7th in the ACC in passing, he'd not have been drafted as high as Jones. Etc, etc.
Oddly enough, he later says the Giants made a mistake taking Jones. Not because Haskins was a better choice, but because they needed other better pieces - like a pass rusher. And cites Allen. Further, he suggests that since Eli is the QB this year, and likely more years, that getting talent to fill other needs was more pressing...at least that's how I heard it.
He actually compliments Gettleman for having the courage of his convictions to basically put his career on the line by going with Jones. And even says Gettleman has been in the league for a long time and usually knows what he's doing...
So Carter is sort of all over the map, but very passionate and sensitive to why Haskins slipped.
I just remember reading an article about Carter invoking race into the equation and never watching the full video segment.
This isn't meant to be a defense of Carter, btw. Just trying to capture where he went with the allegation...
It's all yours. I wasn't even referencing Area 51.
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Otherwise, what are we doing here.
And, if we win and continue to win, then ELi will continue to play. If we don't, he won't.
It's not rocket science or even basic physics. You don't need to actually be in Los Alamos to understand that. But, maybe getting a little closer might help.
You have to admit that a 7-9, 8-8 or even 9-7 and missing the playoffs and Jones gets no playing time is just about the worst possible outcome. And probably the most likely
BTW - I appreciate your area 51 joke
It'd be surprising if Jones didn't play at all this season. 2020 is a shoe-in, though.
No, but I also couldn't find one where he called the Giants a bunch of racists either. I just see dumb headlines, and I thought dumb headlines were consistently frowned upon in these parts.
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Chris Carter called the Chiefs a bunch of racists that would be helpful, too, if we're defending the guy.
No, but I also couldn't find one where he called the Giants a bunch of racists either. I just see dumb headlines, and I thought dumb headlines were consistently frowned upon in these parts.
See my outline of Carter's remarks above from his show - just FYI.
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Ahem... I believe I was the first to bring an Area 51 reference into this thread... I demand credit!
It's all yours. I wasn't even referencing Area 51.
My bad, I knew someone made in area 51 reference, that's why I thought the los Alamos remark was clever
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Chris Carter called the Chiefs a bunch of racists that would be helpful, too, if we're defending the guy.
No, but I also couldn't find one where he called the Giants a bunch of racists either. I just see dumb headlines, and I thought dumb headlines were consistently frowned upon in these parts.
Didn't Carter directly say the Giants didn't consider Haskins because he was black?
Moe
Larry
Curly
Shemp?
and here is the more charged segment on the redskins taking haskins (which seems be removed from the official website)
https://twitter.com/ftfonfs1/status/1121739479495127040?lang=en
for those that want to hear what he said
Link - ( New Window )
The "host" is awful, who is that anyway? I like how not liking Haskins is incompetence. He then goes on to say he could have been the #1 pick...
I'm not an expert, but there's a bunch of legitimate reasons why Haskins didn't go #1 overall, too many to name in fact. Just a chickenshit way to drum up a story when you lack the ability to break down why a player might actually fall.
That was a brutal listen, thanks for that, haha
The panel then quoted Giants general manager Dave Gettleman, who claimed he fell in “full bloom love” with Jones after three series at the Senior Bowl, implying that’s all they needed to choose the white player over the black player.
I don’t know what else to say. It sounded pretty damn clear to me and it wasn’t a slip up, he makes several references to race being the motivator, in fact.
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“I just can’t go on without saying this: If Dwayne Haskins, as an African-American, goes to Duke and puts up those mediocre stats – seventh in the conference. He’s not drafted Day 1 or damn Day 2,” Carter said on “First Things First.” “So when you start talking about ‘a guy can’t comprehend’ – that stuff is racial.”
Right. I referenced this above. So who was saying Haskins can't comprehend (Carter's source)?
I ask, because it's not clear...
and here is the more charged segment on the redskins taking haskins (which seems be removed from the official website)
https://twitter.com/ftfonfs1/status/1121739479495127040?lang=en
for those that want to hear what he said
I reviewed those earlier and posted my comments about these about an hour ago. Your second link is pretty harmless by Carter. Essentially says Jones was a reach, but DG has been doing this for a while, and his legacy will be tied to Carter.
The first link, like I mentioned earlier, Carter's tipping point is that he heard something about Haskin's not have the ability to comprehend, and that's why he fell. Not sure what that sourcing was/is, but that was the genesis...
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“I just can’t go on without saying this: If Dwayne Haskins, as an African-American, goes to Duke and puts up those mediocre stats – seventh in the conference. He’s not drafted Day 1 or damn Day 2,” Carter said on “First Things First.” “So when you start talking about ‘a guy can’t comprehend’ – that stuff is racial.”
Who is the source for a "guy can't comprehend"? The default seems to be that it's the Giants. Fine...but based on what?
Are you trying to imply that he's not bringing race into the discussion, because I'm getting that general feeling. Or at least putting forth a great effort to minimize his statements.
Gotta cross enemy lines here. Although not directly stated, it clear in the conversation between the two of them that they strongly imply that the Giants prefer the white quarterback.
Are you trying to imply that he's not bringing race into the discussion, because I'm getting that general feeling. Or at least putting forth a great effort to minimize his statements.
No, not at all. Of course he is...
Like I said, I'm not sure if he's saying the Giants said Haskins would struggle with comprehension or if he was just making a general remark why he think Haskins fell.
If it's the latter, and based on what Carter says later in the segment about DG, he may not have been directly pointing the race card at the Giants. I just don't know.
The co host definitely points it at the Giants direction though.
The co host definitely points it at the Giants direction though.
Totally agree with that. Nick Wright, the co-host, seems more intent on directly accusing the Giants...
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“I just can’t go on without saying this: If Dwayne Haskins, as an African-American, goes to Duke and puts up those mediocre stats – seventh in the conference. He’s not drafted Day 1 or damn Day 2,” Carter said on “First Things First.” “So when you start talking about ‘a guy can’t comprehend’ – that stuff is racial.”
So... neither of those quotes directly accuse the Giants of not drafting Haskins because he's black. You can disagree with his overall "If he were ______ then he would ______" argument if you'd like (though don't clutch your pearls over it too tightly, because that same type of argument is made all the time here, including on this very thread). But there's no direct "The Giants in particular drafted Jones instead of Haskins because they hate the idea of a black QB" statement anywhere.
The co host definitely points it at the Giants direction though.
Yeah, the co host is actually much more pointed in his commentary.
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“I just can’t go on without saying this: If Dwayne Haskins, as an African-American, goes to Duke and puts up those mediocre stats – seventh in the conference. He’s not drafted Day 1 or damn Day 2,” Carter said on “First Things First.” “So when you start talking about ‘a guy can’t comprehend’ – that stuff is racial.”
Right. I referenced this above. So who was saying Haskins can't comprehend (Carter's source)?
I ask, because it's not clear...
He definitely doesn't seem to be singling out the Giants as the source of that comment. Unless there IS some reference of the Giants actually indicating that was a reason they didn't draft Haskins.
I see Carter's argument as less about the Giants taking someone because he was white, and more about how if Haskins had put up Jones' numbers on a team that finished with Duke's record, he wouldn't have gone in the first round. Hell, he even says day 2. But because we've got a worse persecution complex as Giants fans than we accuse Carter of having about racial issues, we actually think he called the Giants racist for their choice.
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In comment 14530434 dep026 said:
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“I just can’t go on without saying this: If Dwayne Haskins, as an African-American, goes to Duke and puts up those mediocre stats – seventh in the conference. He’s not drafted Day 1 or damn Day 2,” Carter said on “First Things First.” “So when you start talking about ‘a guy can’t comprehend’ – that stuff is racial.”
Right. I referenced this above. So who was saying Haskins can't comprehend (Carter's source)?
I ask, because it's not clear...
He definitely doesn't seem to be singling out the Giants as the source of that comment. Unless there IS some reference of the Giants actually indicating that was a reason they didn't draft Haskins.
I see Carter's argument as less about the Giants taking someone because he was white, and more about how if Haskins had put up Jones' numbers on a team that finished with Duke's record, he wouldn't have gone in the first round. Hell, he even says day 2. But because we've got a worse persecution complex as Giants fans than we accuse Carter of having about racial issues, we actually think he called the Giants racist for their choice.
He certainly implied they were.
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In comment 14530434 dep026 said:
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“I just can’t go on without saying this: If Dwayne Haskins, as an African-American, goes to Duke and puts up those mediocre stats – seventh in the conference. He’s not drafted Day 1 or damn Day 2,” Carter said on “First Things First.” “So when you start talking about ‘a guy can’t comprehend’ – that stuff is racial.”
Right. I referenced this above. So who was saying Haskins can't comprehend (Carter's source)?
I ask, because it's not clear...
He definitely doesn't seem to be singling out the Giants as the source of that comment. Unless there IS some reference of the Giants actually indicating that was a reason they didn't draft Haskins.
I see Carter's argument as less about the Giants taking someone because he was white, and more about how if Haskins had put up Jones' numbers on a team that finished with Duke's record, he wouldn't have gone in the first round. Hell, he even says day 2. But because we've got a worse persecution complex as Giants fans than we accuse Carter of having about racial issues, we actually think he called the Giants racist for their choice.
I think it depends on what the meaning of “is” is.
https://youtu.be/POOWQB-XtG4
Now I recognize that this isn't an exact clone of what he said about Jones but can we at least put the "He'd never express any "pump the brakes" thoughts like that about any non Giant quarterback!!" thing to rest?
1k replies or gtfo
He definitely doesn't seem to be singling out the Giants as the source of that comment. Unless there IS some reference of the Giants actually indicating that was a reason they didn't draft Haskins.
I see Carter's argument as less about the Giants taking someone because he was white, and more about how if Haskins had put up Jones' numbers on a team that finished with Duke's record, he wouldn't have gone in the first round. Hell, he even says day 2. But because we've got a worse persecution complex as Giants fans than we accuse Carter of having about racial issues, we actually think he called the Giants racist for their choice.
I can see why people jumped on Carter. Especially if you relied solely on the print media because they made it sound as if Carter directly said all of Jints Central are racists.
But it you watched the segment and listened carefully, it's just not that clear. Carter's disgust is driven by some information that Haskins was considered less capable because of some intellect concern. And that was the catalyst that dropped Haskins out of the top ten.
Bookend that with Carter later praising DG, it's a lot sketchier if Carter was actually calling DG a racist for the Jones pick...
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“I just can’t go on without saying this: If Dwayne Haskins, as an African-American, goes to Duke and puts up those mediocre stats – seventh in the conference. He’s not drafted Day 1 or damn Day 2,” Carter said on “First Things First.” “So when you start talking about ‘a guy can’t comprehend’ – that stuff is racial.”
So... neither of those quotes directly accuse the Giants of not drafting Haskins because he's black. You can disagree with his overall "If he were ______ then he would ______" argument if you'd like (though don't clutch your pearls over it too tightly, because that same type of argument is made all the time here, including on this very thread). But there's no direct "The Giants in particular drafted Jones instead of Haskins because they hate the idea of a black QB" statement anywhere.
It's about as direct as you can get without naming the Giants. I mean, nobody else picked a white guy from Duke with those stats in the first round.
He's saying the Giants wouldn't have picked Jones if everything else (school, stats, etc) were the same about him but you changed his name to Haskins and made him black instead of white. How can you take that as anything other than an accusation of racism?
The headlines from the tabloidy websites we had no problem dismissing when they'd write about OBJ's issues made it sound as though Carter was ranting and raving like he was bitten by a radioactive Steven A Smith. This very thread also acts as though he's just incredulous about any credit Jones is getting, and that he's holding him to some standard he'd apply to no one else merely because he lost to us nearly two decades ago. The reality seems very different.
I still don't think that Carter has some axe to grind about Jones, or that he's offering some criticism of Jones' TD pass that he wouldn't offer in any other QB analysis because of this axe, but I guess we'll find out if Jones winds up being good enough to afford Carter multiple opportunities to.