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NFT: NHL: Pronman Farm System Rankings

pjcas18 : 8/12/2019 9:09 am
I think Corey will announce two per day over the next few weeks/to month (I think one a day), so while it is behind the Athletic paywall (which as a side note broke my lifelong rule of never paying for content on the Internet and it's some of the best money I have ever spent) I feel like we can discuss it if people want as he reveals his list.

This should bring us into the pre-season.

I have posted some other rankings (Sportingnews - which was free).

But Pronman will go into much more depth about the systems. I will not on this thread except for the teams people have interest on here and I'll just be mostly parroting Pronman or others (Wheeler, etc.). I haven't seen many of these guys play ever.

So far:
31. Calgary Flames
30. Capitals

Hard to argue with either - the Caps won a cup a year ago and the past few years I've had the Flames as one of my breakout teams. A lot of good youth at the NHL level, just haven't found consistency in the net or the ice.

Criteria:
Quote:
There is no good way to define a prospect, whether objectively or subjectively, someone is going to get left out by the process, itís just the way it goes.

With that said, the eligibility for being a prospect for these rankings is:

A skater no longer qualifies as an NHL prospect if he has played 25 games in the NHL in any campaign, regular season and playoffs combined, or 50 games total; or reaches age 27 by Sept. 15.

A goalie no longer qualifies as an NHL prospect if he has played 10 games in the NHL in any campaign, regular season and playoffs combined, or 25 games total; or reaches age 27 by Sept. 15.



Link below for the site that will be updated each day/as he completes a teams ranking/write up
Link - Pronman Farm System Rankings - ( New Window )
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RE: RE: Yeah, but Kakko isn't just any young player  
Jay in Toronto : 9/11/2019 10:24 am : link
In comment 14570239 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
In comment 14570166 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


He's the #2 overall pick, the highest the Rangers have ever had, and their best prospect since Brian Leetch 30+ years ago.

He's wearing 45 now but I bet he's 24 come the regular season.




agree. if he wants it.


Nieves has given it up.
RE: RE: Not taking away from that GW goal  
pjcas18 : 9/11/2019 10:24 am : link
In comment 14571472 Jay in Toronto said:
Quote:
In comment 14569080 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


or the individual effort but there was massive interference in the zone to spring Kakko.

Still a great individual effort, but in a meaningful game that's a whistle IMO.



Agreed, but when have you seen picks like that called?


Used to be rarely, now they get called all the time.
Holy shit look at his forehead  
pjcas18 : 9/11/2019 3:05 pm : link
it's Peyton Manning-esque.

And he is going to get a lot of shit from his teammates about that mustache. I read they're going to name him captain.

He looks like an extra from Pirates of the Caribbean  
Greg from LI : 9/11/2019 3:56 pm : link
.
RE: He looks like an extra from Pirates of the Caribbean  
Diversify yo bonds : 9/11/2019 3:59 pm : link
In comment 14571952 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
.


Mock turtle and a herringbone chain and he's every drug dealer from late 80s after school specials. (zubaz pants optional)
I see a divorce coming in TOR  
pjcas18 : 9/11/2019 4:13 pm : link
and it doesn't make me sad at all. and I normally don't comment on players and the $$ of their contract, because it's private IMO and their reasons are their business, but Marner seems to be getting bad advice.

Bob McKenzie
@TSNBobMcKenzie
∑ 5h
TOR has made seven and eight year offers in the $11M AAV universe but because itís a lower AAV and longer term than Auston Matthews, it hasnít been palatable to Marner.
Show this thread
he's more than welcome at MSG  
Greg from LI : 9/11/2019 5:07 pm : link
Not that the Rangers can meet his demands, either
RE: he's more than welcome at MSG  
pjcas18 : 9/11/2019 5:18 pm : link
In comment 14572019 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
Not that the Rangers can meet his demands, either


no one really can unless he wants to get shipped out to Ottawa or maybe he gets traded for Laine or something like that.
This guy breaks the situation down nicely, IMO.  
Mike in Long Beach : 9/11/2019 5:20 pm : link
Apparently this has gotten very personal for Marner's camp, and they're making a lot of lofty comparisons the Matthews. They feel insulted he's being considered "second fiddle"
More detail on it here - ( New Window )
Hard to argue with this  
pjcas18 : 9/11/2019 7:44 pm : link
Leafs needed D and to sign their own, instead...

Nik- #HereWeGo (0-1) #SHALIEVE
🦁
@NikkF07
Gallo: So was caving to Nylander the mistake or giving Matthews a 5 year deal the mistake?

Gord Miller: my honest opinion, signing John Tavares was the mistake. They were the 3rd highest scoring team. They didnít need him.
Pronman  
pjcas18 : 9/12/2019 10:42 am : link
top 130 prospects came out today.

He has tiers:

Special NHL prospect: Projects as a true NHL star, someone who is among the best players in the league.

Elite NHL prospect: Projects as an impact player, someone who is top 10-15 percent in the NHL at his position.

High-end NHL prospect: Projects as a first-line forward or a top-pair defenseman.

Very good NHL prospect: Projects as a top-six forward, top-four defenseman or starting goaltender in the NHL.

Legit NHL prospect: Projects to be a full-time NHL player in the bottom half of a roster.

Has a chance: The prospect has a chance to make it as a full-time player if some improvements are made.

Depth Players: These are prospects who do not have NHL toolkits, but could be good AHL players and provide depth to an organization.

Only one player in top tier for him (Hughes).

Of the teams I know people on here like:

MTL: 6 players Cole Caufield highest at #6 (in the elite tier)

NYR: 4 players Kakko #2 overall and has him on the elite/special bubble

NYI: 5 players, Dobson the highest #20 overall & he is in the High End Prospect Tier

NJD: 3 players, Hughes #1 overall only player in the special talent tier

BOS: 1 player, Studnicka #101 in the Very Good/Legit Prospect tier

OTT: 6 players, Batherson #29

anyone else?

linked behind the Athletic pay wall


Link - ( New Window )
pj  
figgy2989 : 9/12/2019 10:49 am : link
Since it is behind a pay wall, can you put the other three Rangers prospects and where he has them ranked?
RE: pj  
pjcas18 : 9/12/2019 11:02 am : link
In comment 14572535 figgy2989 said:
Quote:
Since it is behind a pay wall, can you put the other three Rangers prospects and where he has them ranked?


Kravtsov, Fox, and miller need to look up rank
RE: RE: pj  
figgy2989 : 9/12/2019 11:04 am : link
In comment 14572561 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
In comment 14572535 figgy2989 said:


Quote:


Since it is behind a pay wall, can you put the other three Rangers prospects and where he has them ranked?



Kravtsov, Fox, and miller need to look up rank


thanks pj. I would have guessed Kravtsov and Fox, surprised he didn't have Shestyorkin.
*Shesterkin  
Greg from LI : 9/12/2019 11:07 am : link
Get with the program!
RE: *Shesterkin  
figgy2989 : 9/12/2019 11:11 am : link
In comment 14572569 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
Get with the program!


Right, forgot the spelling change! Can we just call him Shesty from now on?
No goalies  
pjcas18 : 9/12/2019 12:01 pm : link
I should have mentioned that. Speaking of goalies the Yaro Askarov bandwagon is filling up. Highest rated goalie at this point I can remember.

Anyway:

Kakko #2 (elite/special bubble)
Kravstov #21 (High End prospect)
Fox #39 (High End/Very Good bubble)
Miller # 48 (Very good prospect)

I think Kakko will be = to Hughes eventually  
Jay in Toronto : 9/12/2019 12:17 pm : link
And I also think 6 the Rangers' Robertson will make the list next time.
RE: I think Kakko will be = to Hughes eventually  
pjcas18 : 9/12/2019 12:35 pm : link
In comment 14572686 Jay in Toronto said:
Quote:
And I also think 6 the Rangers' Robertson will make the list next time.


next time Kakko, Fox and Kravstov likely won't be eligible. Pronman set a 25 NHL game max to be considered. Which is why Chytil (or Kotkaniemi for example) isn't eligible (but Makar is). Miller likely on the next one still even if he joins the Rangers after the WIS season. Probably doesn't get 25 games in.
I would think  
Ross : 9/12/2019 12:53 pm : link
It's a legit possibility that these Rangers prospects could potentially be on the list next year..

Miller
Lundkvist
Robertson
Reunanen
Barron
Henriksson

As discussed,,,they are very deep in talented prospects
RE: Hard to argue with this  
BrettNYG10 : 9/12/2019 1:45 pm : link
In comment 14572119 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
Leafs needed D and to sign their own, instead...

Nik- #HereWeGo (0-1) #SHALIEVE
🦁
@NikkF07
Gallo: So was caving to Nylander the mistake or giving Matthews a 5 year deal the mistake?

Gord Miller: my honest opinion, signing John Tavares was the mistake. They were the 3rd highest scoring team. They didnít need him.


I think Tavares at $11M>Marner at $8M.

I think signing Andersen was a mistake. Marleau was a mistake, although that's done.
And I guess Marner is still asking for $11?  
BrettNYG10 : 9/12/2019 1:47 pm : link
Haven't been up to date.
that is a bad opinion  
pjcas18 : 9/12/2019 1:57 pm : link
(at least to me).

I believe Marner > Tavares and he's 7 years younger.

Marner put up a 94-point season as a 21-year old and it was assist heavy, which at that age is a good thing IMO, he was the one creating offense.

most of the metrics I believe also favor Marner over Matthews FWIW - which is the crux of this stalemate.

And yea, Marner wants $11M (at least) but only for 6 years or whatever Matthews got. Not longer, he (or his "camp") view longer term as a concession.



I think Marner benefited from Tavares in a big way.  
BrettNYG10 : 9/12/2019 2:22 pm : link
Marner's a great player, but I don't think he puts up 90+ without JT.
Suck it, pj.  
BrettNYG10 : 9/12/2019 2:29 pm : link
RE: I think Marner benefited from Tavares in a big way.  
pjcas18 : 9/12/2019 2:33 pm : link
In comment 14572881 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
Marner's a great player, but I don't think he puts up 90+ without JT.


First, I think both are great players and I'd take either on my team in a heartbeat.

But I think they benefited each other, both eclipsed career highs, but with Tavares being a mature player already and Marner being just 21, I think his upside is just higher when Tavares IMO is what he is going to be.

A little surprised to see Fox higher than Miller  
Greg from LI : 9/12/2019 2:39 pm : link
I guess it's the ol' floor versus ceiling argument - Fox has the higher floor, Miller has the higher ceiling.
....  
BrettNYG10 : 9/12/2019 2:40 pm : link
Yeah, that's fair.

My initial post was probably aggressive. I'd take eight years of Tavares over eight years of Marner, even at their respective ages.

Both are great platers, I can see the age thing swinging views.
I was reading some comments of people not high on Miller's  
BrettNYG10 : 9/12/2019 2:40 pm : link
Offensive game, fwiw.
RE: I was reading some comments of people not high on Miller's  
pjcas18 : 9/12/2019 2:43 pm : link
In comment 14572915 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
Offensive game, fwiw.


Being a converted forward that surprises me.

Every time I have seen him he's been quick to activate or join the rush.

might take some time.
RE: ....  
pjcas18 : 9/12/2019 2:46 pm : link
In comment 14572913 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
Yeah, that's fair.

My initial post was probably aggressive. I'd take eight years of Tavares over eight years of Marner, even at their respective ages.

Both are great platers, I can see the age thing swinging views.


that might be exactly what they get, the longer they go without signing him the worse it is for all involved.

I think MTL messed up with the offer sheet to Aho and should have made one to Marner. Though I suspect the offer sheet to Aho was really a favor to the agent to get CAR moving.

In case people don't follow the Habs Leafs rivalry has reach new levels this off-season with the sandpaper-personified Domi family trolling Toronto all summer.
Given the age difference  
Jay in Toronto : 9/12/2019 3:10 pm : link
Marner has more value IMO
This guy was tortured for this trade  
pjcas18 : 9/13/2019 8:19 am : link
I think he even received death threats. Many years later it seems as fans, maybe we don't know the whole story.

Subban is still one of my favorite players to watch and an incredible human being, but I guess he's not the most coachable as a player.

Quote:
Habs Chronicle
@HabsChronicle

3m
MB identified the Weber trade as his best trade as #Habs GM. Called it a culture-changing move.

When asked if it's the move he'll be most remembered for, MB said:

"Probably. Because itís Shea Weber. Honestly Iím proud that I could be associated with Shea Weber."
Nice article  
Ross : 9/13/2019 9:16 am : link
about Karl Henriksson as I think he's one to keep an eye on.

My wife's cousin live in Vancouver and is friendly with some former NHLers turned scouts. He keeps telling me that these guys love him.
link - ( New Window )
RE: Nice article  
pjcas18 : 9/13/2019 9:30 am : link
In comment 14573802 Ross said:
Quote:
about Karl Henriksson as I think he's one to keep an eye on.

My wife's cousin live in Vancouver and is friendly with some former NHLers turned scouts. He keeps telling me that these guys love him. link - ( New Window )


He stood out at the rookie tournament in Traverse City.
Goalie prospect  
pjcas18 : 9/13/2019 9:44 am : link
rankings out for the season.
Spencer Knight #2, I love Spencer Knight's potential, but FL just signed Bobrovsky long-term so no clue how Knight sees the NHL if it's not via trade.

He is a young Carey Price IMO. So positionally sound, calm in net, athletic, great with the puck, I haven't seen enough of Askarov, but if scouts see Askarov as measurably better than Knight I can't wait to see more.

#1 is Thatcher Demko (VAN).
Another American (like Knight) who is very athletic for his size. I think Knight is better though.



Igor Shesterkin #3. His size and occasional leaky pucks are the only negatives.

Cayden Primeau (Keith's son) for MTL is #4

All 4 are in the "Very Good NHL Prospect" tier.

other relevant ones for fans here (and all are in the very good/legit bubble):

Samsonov: WAS
Sorokin: NYI

Link - ( New Window )
Marner a done deal  
pjcas18 : 9/13/2019 7:00 pm : link
6 years.

Oh well, I was hoping it got ugly.
Slightly  
pjcas18 : 9/13/2019 7:08 pm : link
under $11M AAV, which is less AAV than the longer term (8 year) offer, but I guess the way these guys view is $60+ M is not enough they want to break the bank again in their prime to take them into their 30's.

good for him if he can get it.
This seems like  
pjcas18 : 9/13/2019 7:31 pm : link
a lot for 4 players.

𝐃𝐚𝐯𝐢𝐝 𝐀𝐥𝐭𝐞𝐫
@dalter
The combined cap hit of John Tavares, Auston Matthews, William Nylander and Mitch Marner is $40.489366 million. The salary cap for this year is $81.5 million.
Dubas is the dog who catches the car  
Eric on Li : 9/13/2019 11:55 pm : link
the Nylander deal was the one that really screwed everything up, obviously you pay those top 3 guys whatever you have to, but now he's got a lot riding on a roster with an entirely new defensive group and very little he can do to upgrade. No room against the cap, bottom 1/3 prospect pool, no first last year or next year. They only have 1 defenseman under contract for next year and only project to $13m to spend. They desperately need Nylander to play well so they can flip his salary for D.
RE: Dubas is the dog who catches the car  
pjcas18 : 9/14/2019 2:02 pm : link
In comment 14574721 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
the Nylander deal was the one that really screwed everything up, obviously you pay those top 3 guys whatever you have to, but now he's got a lot riding on a roster with an entirely new defensive group and very little he can do to upgrade. No room against the cap, bottom 1/3 prospect pool, no first last year or next year. They only have 1 defenseman under contract for next year and only project to $13m to spend. They desperately need Nylander to play well so they can flip his salary for D.


and they're still probably the Bruins bitch in the playoffs.
Damn  
pjcas18 : 9/15/2019 10:14 am : link
I knew this would happen, but hoped it wouldn't.

Bob McKenzie
@TSNBobMcKenzie

4m
Charlie McAvoy has agreed to terms with BOS. Three-year deal, $4.9M AAV. Very similar to Zach Werenskiís three-year, $5M AAV deal with CBJ. McAvoy could make up the $300K difference because his Year 3 salary, and Qualifying Offer base, is $7.3M, $300K more than Werenskiís.
RE: RE: Dubas is the dog who catches the car  
Eric on Li : 9/15/2019 10:32 am : link
In comment 14574998 pjcas18 said:
Quote:



and they're still probably the Bruins bitch in the playoffs.


If they even get that far in the playoffs with that defense. They are a lock to get 100+ points but at playoff time their defense is seemingly an even bigger question this year vs. last year. Gardner, Zaitsev, and Hainsey each played over 20 mpg last year. Barrie will probably replace most of their point production but they are counting on a bunch of journeyman young guys (and Ceci) to replace the minutes. And if Barrie has a good year good luck resigning him next year, they can barely afford him now with Colorado retaining $.

For a team that's top heavy, and mostly with young guys, they are very win now. And with no more picks to deal a lot of pressure is riding on this group to come together and improve (and specifically on Babcock).
.  
pjcas18 : 9/15/2019 11:20 pm : link
Wheeler Calder rankings  
pjcas18 : 9/16/2019 9:32 am : link
Hughes (NJD), Makar (COL), Kakko (NYR), Hughes (Quinn) (VAN), Batherson (OTT) (top 5).


For BBI hockey fans:
Kravtsov and Fox (NYR) also top 10
on the list:
Brannstrom (OTT)
Necas (CAR)
Logan Brown (OTT)
Ty Smith (NJD)

And
Suzuki/Poehling (MTL)
Dobson (NYI)
Bean (CAR)

were honorable mention

Link - ( New Window )
Jack Hughes  
pjcas18 : 9/16/2019 8:34 pm : link
scores in his first pre-season game (PP goal vs the Bruins)
Link - ( New Window )
Boeser  
pjcas18 : 9/16/2019 9:18 pm : link
re-signed in VAN, 3 years AAV 5.85M.

RFA list slowly dwindling.

Point, Laine, Carlo maybe a couple more.
Hughes  
pjcas18 : 9/16/2019 11:13 pm : link
with 2 goals in his pre-season debut.
.  
pjcas18 : 9/17/2019 11:09 am : link
Adam Herman
@AdamZHerman

2m
Panarin, Kakko, Kravtsov, Trouba, Fox, and Shesterkin all making their Ranger debuts together. That's good marketing.
RE: Hughes  
Stu11 : 9/17/2019 11:23 pm : link
In comment 14581850 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
with 2 goals in his pre-season debut.

kind of symbiotic with Eli leaving center stage of the area sports scene today and Hughes/Kakko entering.
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