…(and maybe next) he stands at the crossroads of his career?
If he helps turn the team around, perhaps he'll go down in history as a respectable / successful Head Coach.
Or, if the Giants continue to flounder under his leadership, will he be consigned to history's dust bin of failed coaches?
In any event, in listening to him in various situations, one can't help but feel that he is an immanently decent, compassionate human being!
With the default 'Eli excuse', I think it's hard to judge 2018 because the OL was so poor, so limited, Odell in and out. The 'd' was eminently shreddable.
While he may burn under the collar a bit under media scrutiny, or make references to players that might be ill advised**, ok. Yeah, lot of weight on his shoulders, still getting his feet anchored with 'his' team.
What I like about him is that it's clear that he is liked by players. I think he has low tolerance for mental mistakes on the field, which is good, and he immediately lets players know about it--see ** above.
No one is going to be Parcells incarnate. I guess the core of the critique is maybe his football acumen is not high enough? This season will add to the basis for evaluation.
Do you remember any examples? I too question whether or not he is the guy to lead this team, but that is more about your latter statement. Reports from players seem to really respect him from a managing of personalities stand point.
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Agreed. When I listen to him speak, it's not just the lukewarm demeanor. He's shown at times to be a bit petty, throws players under the bus, a bit weak under media scrutiny, etc. Not to mention his in game decisions and command are suspect at times.
Do you remember any examples? I too question whether or not he is the guy to lead this team, but that is more about your latter statement. Reports from players seem to really respect him from a managing of personalities stand point.
The one that stuck out to me the most last year was allowing the Saints to run the clock down before the half when we had all our timeouts. They had a 3rd and goal with over a minute left and Shurmur let the Saints run the clock down to like 20 seconds before the play.
He owned up to it afterwards but there's absolutely no excuse for it as an NFL head coach. I was at the game and we were all screaming to call a timeout.
Link - ( New Window )
Yes his interviews leave a lot to be desired but the team didnt give up on him last yr despite the shit show that was going on. I think that says more about him as a leader than a couple rough interviews with a washed up Francesa who clearly has an axe to grind with the jints.
I expect a hungry, confident team, that plays sound football this year. clearly not the most talented team on paper but I am very excited to see what he can do with an average offensive line in yr two of the system.
If they win 7-8 games this season and 9-10 next season that is a nice turnaround and he keeps his job, just as Coughlin did, but that’s probably not going to put him in the top tier of coaches. Also it’s his second head coaching job, so he’s not a rookie. He needs to show results, and fast.
So will he do prove a failure, a mediocrity or a star? That’s the crossroads he’s at. It’s probably his last chance to be a star.
Plus he is developing a young qb.
Disagree. Another 4 or 5 win season and he's gone.
You cant evaluate a head coach based on the idea that the team didnt quit on him in a 5 win season. That's a very soft standard.
He wont be fired this year unless it's a total disaster.
Coach said he is a overachiever several times. Let's stop talking with the media about the Giants being a young team and get them to perform and overachieve.
There is enough of a veteran presence and talent that anything less than a competitive big game in December without catastrophic injuries should have the Giants move on from him imo.
Unless this season completely implodes, I think Shurmur deserves a chance to have a QB that fits his system. And that's Jones - so it seems on paper. And he needs to have that play out over a full year. So I think it would be fair to give him another year.
Unless a great coaching prospect enters the market, and it's too vital not to add that coach...just for kicks, like an Urban Meyer decides to get in the league...
If they win 7-8 games this season and 9-10 next season that is a nice turnaround and he keeps his job, just as Coughlin did, but that’s probably not going to put him in the top tier of coaches. Also it’s his second head coaching job, so he’s not a rookie. He needs to show results, and fast.
So will he do prove a failure, a mediocrity or a star? That’s the crossroads he’s at. It’s probably his last chance to be a star.
Thank you!
I mean no disrespect to the other posters on this thread, but my question was, indeed, whether or not Pat Shurmur is at the crossroads of his career, and not whether or not he has a one / two year window to succeed.
Those are two different questions... related, but different.
Can we be patient with this guy. Often times circumstances dictate you just can’t win no matter how good a coach you might be.
He has not exactly been in great situations. As for his first year with the Giants, his team played considerably better as the season progressed.
It a very possible he is actually a very good head coach.
Can we be patient with this guy. Often times circumstances dictate you just can’t win no matter how good a coach you might be.
He has not exactly been in great situations. As for his first year with the Giants, his team played considerably better as the season progressed.
It a very possible he is actually a very good head coach.
I could easily argue Jones. He is the compass of the future.
So if Jones get in, and I hope it's much sooner rather than later, and he does well, Shurmur should get a ton of credit. And regardless of the record.
This is getting way down the road, but if the above occurs, then Jones will have some say in the matter. If he likes Shurmur, that will carry weight.
Now if 2020 comes and the Giants are still a mess and Jones looks lost, I think everyone - not limited to Shurmur - is likely gone.
Like others have said, I think the jury is still out on Shurmur, but to date he has not been a successful NFL head coach. Maybe the light bulb goes on for him, or he could be a guy who is nothing more than a good coordinator. League history is littered with those types.
It a very possible he is actually a very good head coach.
Sure, it's possible, and it's possible that Imagine Dragons creates a timeless album that will go down in history as a defining musical achievement on par with Exile on Main Street. But the past doesn't give much confidence that either will happen.
The word is founder(sink). Flounder is a fish.
But, yes, if he doesn't get it done here, he will be done as a HC.
I hear you, but Turner and Phillips had some success. Surprisingly, Phillips is 82/64 basically over 11 season (two seasons where he was hired the end of a season). Of those 11 season he had winning records in 7. That surprised when I studied it...
He can't be their friend though. His demeanor seems to mellow at times for that approach. He has to establish authority. They better know there will be ramifications for poor performance. I think the best HCs have to instill a little fear into the players heads. Not to much maybe but, .... a little for motivation.
Shurmer still has something to prove but I would be shocked he doesn't get at least three years to do so.
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but 2019 would need to be really bad and unexpected for him to the get the boot.
100% agree. I think Shurmur is a capable football coach, and someone who likely will bring the Giants to the playoffs and help fix the mess that McAdoo and Reese created. But I don't see him as a Super Bowl winning coach. Think more Jim Fassel than Ray Handley/McAdoo but short of Parcells/Coughlin.
I think he will be given through 2020 and the Giants will evaluate after that.
Pretty much my take as well. I’m not even asking much out of shurmur other than just right the ship, coach up the qb and kids and go from there. And who knows maybe shurmur grows into something. He definitely brings some things to the table. Maybe he can build on that...
I could easily argue Jones. He is the compass of the future.
So if Jones get in, and I hope it's much sooner rather than later, and he does well, Shurmur should get a ton of credit. And regardless of the record.
This is getting way down the road, but if the above occurs, then Jones will have some say in the matter. If he likes Shurmur, that will carry weight.
Uh winning is first and most important. Winning won’t get in the way of anything except losing. Cmon.
Uh winning is first and most important. Winning won’t get in the way of anything except losing. Cmon.
Assuming we don't win a SB, which seems a reasonable position, would you rather win 10 games - and sneak into the playoffs and lose - OR see Jones get consider PT and really demonstrates the right stuff to signal a very bright future for the team?
When we look at the Vikings under Pat Shurmur they were the11th ranked offense with Case Keenum. Last year with Kirk Cousins minus Pat Shurmur they were the 20th ranked offense and looked outright terrible.
Now the Giants offense under McAdoo was ranked 21st in the league but played worst than that for most of the season. Under Pat Shurmur the Giants were ranked 17th. That may not seem like a huge improvement but considering that the Giants took a step forward in their offensive production while the Vikings took a step back and both teams have PS as a common denominator I believe it says a whole lot.
But on the flip side Mike Zimmer, Andy Reid, Bruce Arians, Ron Rivera, Gary Kubiak, Jason Garrett, and plenty of others have had that sort of label, gotten their chance, and then succeeded. What's more, if he can develop Daniel Jones into a quality QB that's not a small thing.
I don't know what Shurmur's ceiling is but I think he has skills and he seems like a quality guy. He's understated and sometimes those guys get underestimated, so it will be interesting to see how things turn out. In the end the only thing that will matter is his record.
His time and game management was terrible too. See the end of the half in the Saints game where he sat on timeouts with the Saints going in to score or the second Eagles game. He looked like a guy standing on the sidelines in those situations. That isn't going to cut it in the playoffs and needs to be improved upon this year.
Hopefully the issues were discussed with him and there is a plan in place to get the issues fixed.
Shurmer still has something to prove but I would be shocked he doesn't get at least three years to do so.
Three years? Under any scenario? My guess is that Pat Shurmur has a 2-year window to demonstrate he can lead a competitive football team. It's not a precise wins-losses total, but I believe he's gone if he doesn't have the Giants playing competitive football by the end of the 2020 season.
The word is founder(sink). Flounder is a fish.
But, yes, if he doesn't get it done here, he will be done as a HC.
Ummm, guess again.
To flounder is to struggle, but to founder is to sink like a stone and fail. Both are fun as nouns, not so fun as verbs. - ( New Window )
The word is founder(sink). Flounder is a fish.
But, yes, if he doesn't get it done here, he will be done as a HC.
Section125, thanks! I'm laughing out loud. Believe it or not I actually DO know the distinction, and I have from nearly half a century ago absurdly high English SATs to back that up. But, alas, maybe I'm just getting dumber and stupider as the years go by! (:-(
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"Or, if the Giants continue to flounder under his leadership, will he be consigned to history's dustbin of failed coaches?"
The word is founder(sink). Flounder is a fish.
But, yes, if he doesn't get it done here, he will be done as a HC.
Ummm, guess again.
To flounder is to struggle, but to founder is to sink like a stone and fail. Both are fun as nouns, not so fun as verbs. - ( New Window )
Optimus -- hats off to you! Now I don't know which way to feel?
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His personality while not loud was certainly intense. I would describe him more as a stoic figure than a quiet one.
Shurmer still has something to prove but I would be shocked he doesn't get at least three years to do so.
Three years? Under any scenario? My guess is that Pat Shurmur has a 2-year window to demonstrate he can lead a competitive football team. It's not a precise wins-losses total, but I believe he's gone if he doesn't have the Giants playing competitive football by the end of the 2020 season.
IMO the wheels would have to fall this year for Mara to fire him. This organization has a long history of displaying patience for their head coaches. I also believe John Mara places a high value on the organization being a stable one. I believe he will put high priority on restoring some stability after everything he, and this organization has gone through these past few seasons. They will look for reasons to keep Shurmur rather than reasons to fire him.
That, in and of itself is probably worth having him here at least for now. Let's see how we do this year with an improved line, a lot of roster turnover and a very new-feeling, younger football team.
I don't worry about his demeanor, his tone, how he handles media questions, etc... that stuff isn't important. Little Bill taught us that many moons ago.
Of course, no one will confuse PS for Bill - but I don't really worry about that stuff. The players played hard for him last year and seem to take well to him - I think barring a really bad year where we make no progress or move backwards, he's pretty safe going into year 3.
As long as the team is a little better than it was last year and it seems like Jones is developing and making progress, I'm okay with Shurmur being around this year and next. Maybe we'll need someone else to put this team over the top in 2021... but there's a lot of time between now and then and a lot of variables that will impact our course.
I agree sure he comes off as a nice guy but I just don't feel hid connection with the team and when he speaks in the locker room he comes off as a High school coach or a priest .
There just seems something is missing .
I don't see this to be a sub 500 club if we end up being
a 5-6 win team then I hope they make a change .
Since the last coach hurried his firing by rushing his handling of Eli benching I am sure Shurmur will be purposeful in not repeating that mistake, and doubt he feels pressure from above in doing so.
Everyone seems so concerned about when and how this team moves from Eli to Jones. I believe that when the time actually does come it will be clear to everyone the time is right, including Eli. IMO there will be little drama this next time.
I didn’t say “everyone will be fine with his and when”, I said “it will be clear to everyone that the time is right”. Two very different things.
It takes time to rebuild and the Giants still have a lot of holes to fill.