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Golden Tate Suspension Upheld

Saos1n : 8/13/2019 3:31 pm
Oh well
Not really a surprise...  
Dan in the Springs : 8/13/2019 3:33 pm : link
given how these things have gone elsewhere.

Thanks for posting.
Did anyone really think  
cjac : 8/13/2019 3:33 pm : link
they were going to reduce it?
Well, on the bright side, it makes his contract a hell of a lot  
jlukes : 8/13/2019 3:33 pm : link
more cap friendly
Pack it up folks  
adamg : 8/13/2019 3:34 pm : link
Season's over
At least he didnít pretend to pee  
mikeinbloomfield : 8/13/2019 3:34 pm : link
In the end zone! Whew!
RE: Well, on the bright side, it makes his contract a hell of a lot  
ron mexico : 8/13/2019 3:35 pm : link
In comment 14529364 jlukes said:
Quote:
more cap friendly


Makes him more cuttable, but from a cap Perspective,just gets reduced on a pro rated basis
I think these  
joeinpa : 8/13/2019 3:35 pm : link
Re receivers are going to surprise in a good way
What does this mean re: his contract?  
90.Cal : 8/13/2019 3:39 pm : link
Can the Giants take some sort of action to protect themselves or pay him less?
And it's just his salary that gets prorated  
ron mexico : 8/13/2019 3:39 pm : link
Signing and roster bonus don't get impacted
RE: What does this mean re: his contract?  
ron mexico : 8/13/2019 3:40 pm : link
In comment 14529375 90.Cal said:
Quote:
Can the Giants take some sort of action to protect themselves or pay him less?


The big impact his future guarantees our voided, which makes him more cuttable in the off-season but only has a small cap Impact this year
...  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 8/13/2019 3:41 pm : link
Kimberly Jones
@KimJonesSports

19s
Now that itís official, as most figured it would be, thereís a lot here. Bottom line, Tate wonít play at Dallas, vs Buffalo, at TB & vs Wash. And, as @MikeGarafolo
noted earlier, his guaranteed $$ for 2020 voids.
Next man up.  
Klaatu : 8/13/2019 3:43 pm : link
Bright side, it'll give one of the other WR's a little more time to show what he can do.
RE: ...  
cjac : 8/13/2019 3:43 pm : link
In comment 14529382 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Kimberly Jones
@KimJonesSports

19s
Now that itís official, as most figured it would be, thereís a lot here. Bottom line, Tate wonít play at Dallas, vs Buffalo, at TB & vs Wash. And, as @MikeGarafolo
noted earlier, his guaranteed $$ for 2020 voids.


3-1, no problem
RE: ...  
Matt in SGS : 8/13/2019 3:45 pm : link
In comment 14529382 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Kimberly Jones
@KimJonesSports

19s
Now that itís official, as most figured it would be, thereís a lot here. Bottom line, Tate wonít play at Dallas, vs Buffalo, at TB & vs Wash. And, as @MikeGarafolo
noted earlier, his guaranteed $$ for 2020 voids.


The Giants might be in their best cap situation going into 2020...well...since the salary cap was put in place back in 1994.
Does he count on the 53-man  
Bill L : 8/13/2019 3:46 pm : link
or do they get an exemption?
Robert Quinn Cowboy's  
David_Upstate : 8/13/2019 3:47 pm : link
Why did Robert Quinn only get 2 and Tate got 4 thought it was 4 across the board?
RE: Does he count on the 53-man  
90.Cal : 8/13/2019 3:48 pm : link
In comment 14529394 Bill L said:
Quote:
or do they get an exemption?


He does not count until he is back from suspension. I suspect another WR is given his roster spot until he can play.
RE: Does he count on the 53-man  
BillT : 8/13/2019 3:49 pm : link
In comment 14529394 Bill L said:
Quote:
or do they get an exemption?

Believe they get an exemption.
RE: Robert Quinn Cowboy's  
ron mexico : 8/13/2019 3:50 pm : link
In comment 14529396 David_Upstate said:
Quote:
Why did Robert Quinn only get 2 and Tate got 4 thought it was 4 across the board?


Quinn got popped for a masking agent while Tate tested positive for an actual PED
Giants legal team  
DavidinBMNY : 8/13/2019 3:52 pm : link
Really protected the franchise. It's definitely going to hurt not having Tate on the field and I can't see how defenses will fear our WRs.

At the same time the flexibility with the roster going forward is very beneficial.
Seems like Quinn should get 6 then  
Bill L : 8/13/2019 3:52 pm : link
4 for what was masked.
There was no precedent for reduction  
JonC : 8/13/2019 3:54 pm : link
Will this help his cap hit if he's gone in 2020, is what I want to know.
Not surprising  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 8/13/2019 4:00 pm : link
.
RE: Next man up.  
Route 9 : 8/13/2019 4:01 pm : link
In comment 14529388 Klaatu said:
Quote:
Bright side, it'll give one of the other WR's a little more time to show what he can do.


Who exactly would be the next man?

Bennie Fowler? I'm so fucking fired up for this season to start.
RE: There was no precedent for reduction  
ron mexico : 8/13/2019 4:02 pm : link
In comment 14529408 JonC said:
Quote:
Will this help his cap hit if he's gone in 2020, is what I want to know.


We would have 7.5 mil of dead cap if we cut him in the off season as opposed to 15.5. Still a tough nut to swallow but doable if he doesn't pan out.
of course it is  
Jints in Carolina : 8/13/2019 4:04 pm : link
he should've beaten the shit out of some kids or a woman instead. He'd get no games.
Did anyone really believe it was going to be cut?  
jcn56 : 8/13/2019 4:05 pm : link
.
RE: RE: Robert Quinn Cowboy's  
section125 : 8/13/2019 4:07 pm : link
In comment 14529401 ron mexico said:
Quote:
In comment 14529396 David_Upstate said:


Quote:


Why did Robert Quinn only get 2 and Tate got 4 thought it was 4 across the board?



Quinn got popped for a masking agent while Tate tested positive for an actual PED


Ha ha. Brilliant. The guy that tries to hide his PEDs gets 2 games. But the guy that reported he took the stuff gets 4 games...
Does the murderer that tries to get away with it get less time than the guy that calls it in and stands there and waits for the cops?

I understand they can't allow him to do this, claim he didn't know what was in it and then say it was prescribed by a Doc. Everyone would do it and many already have claimed the same excuse...
But I don't understand giving the guy who used and tried to conceal it 1/2 the suspension. He should get 2 additional to the 4 in the contract.

IMHO!
RE: Did anyone really believe it was going to be cut?  
Jimmy Googs : 8/13/2019 4:08 pm : link
In comment 14529427 jcn56 said:
Quote:
.


Yes, there were several that believed it would be cut.
RE: RE: Next man up.  
Klaatu : 8/13/2019 4:08 pm : link
In comment 14529423 Route 9 said:
Quote:
In comment 14529388 Klaatu said:


Quote:


Bright side, it'll give one of the other WR's a little more time to show what he can do.



Who exactly would be the next man?

Bennie Fowler? I'm so fucking fired up for this season to start.


No, my guess is that Fowler is going to make the team anyway.

I'm talking about someone on the bubble, someone who's looking at maybe making the practice squad if they're lucky. Someone like Reggie White, Jr., Alonzo Russell, or Alex Wesley.
RE: RE: There was no precedent for reduction  
JonC : 8/13/2019 4:08 pm : link
In comment 14529424 ron mexico said:
Quote:
In comment 14529408 JonC said:


Quote:


Will this help his cap hit if he's gone in 2020, is what I want to know.



We would have 7.5 mil of dead cap if we cut him in the off season as opposed to 15.5. Still a tough nut to swallow but doable if he doesn't pan out.


Agreed, thanks for the info.
A masking agent prevents the detection of what he took  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/13/2019 4:12 pm : link
I believe.

So if you can't identify what he took, you can only punish a player for trying to cheat the test.

Tate flat out confessed that he took a PED.
RE: I think these  
RDJR : 8/13/2019 4:12 pm : link
In comment 14529371 joeinpa said:
Quote:
Re receivers are going to surprise in a good way


Based on what? Practice and one preseason game.
Mets need Golden Tate to refer Robinson Cano to his Dr  
Eric on Li : 8/13/2019 4:13 pm : link
so they can save some $ too.

Tate getting suspended sucks, especially for 2 division game, but hopefully the rest of the offense will be close to full strength. With or without him those should close games, splitting them 2-2 would be a win.
Unfortunate  
Lines of Scrimmage : 8/13/2019 4:14 pm : link
Let's get the depth the reps in preseason. Not ideal, but if the Giants are able to run effectively out of the gate it makes this less significant.
I wonder if this has any impact on compensation formula  
Milton : 8/13/2019 4:16 pm : link
There is this belief that the addition of Tate is offset by the subtraction of Jamon Brown, but my fear is that Tate will be offset by Landon Collins. Meaning the Giants will get a 5th round comp pick instead of a 3rd round comp pick next year. Something like this could push Tate's $ closer to Brown and further from Collins.
RE: RE: RE: Robert Quinn Cowboy's  
jcn56 : 8/13/2019 4:18 pm : link
In comment 14529430 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 14529401 ron mexico said:


Quote:


In comment 14529396 David_Upstate said:


Quote:


Why did Robert Quinn only get 2 and Tate got 4 thought it was 4 across the board?



Quinn got popped for a masking agent while Tate tested positive for an actual PED



Ha ha. Brilliant. The guy that tries to hide his PEDs gets 2 games. But the guy that reported he took the stuff gets 4 games...
Does the murderer that tries to get away with it get less time than the guy that calls it in and stands there and waits for the cops?

I understand they can't allow him to do this, claim he didn't know what was in it and then say it was prescribed by a Doc. Everyone would do it and many already have claimed the same excuse...
But I don't understand giving the guy who used and tried to conceal it 1/2 the suspension. He should get 2 additional to the 4 in the contract.

IMHO!


You can't prove he used, though - that's the problem. That's why the masking agents get penalized even though they don't affect performance at all.

I don't buy Tate's excuse - if you want to blame anyone for anything, don't blame the NFL for penalizing masking agents less, blame Tate for not going the full 9 and using a masking agent as well. If you're going to cheat, go whole hog.
RE: A masking agent prevents the detection of what he took  
section125 : 8/13/2019 4:20 pm : link
In comment 14529438 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
I believe.

So if you can't identify what he took, you can only punish a player for trying to cheat the test.

Tate flat out confessed that he took a PED.


If you refuse a breathalyzer, you get the same 6 month loss of license. If you use a masking agent during a drug test in the rest of the workforce, you get the same penalty as if you failed the test.
The only reason to have a masking agent is to hide what you took which was prohibited. So why should Quinn get away with taking PEDs because he covered it up? I would believe that a masking agent is solid evidence of drug use. If the CBA says he can only get two games, it is what it is. But that is a loophole to be closed.
RE: A masking agent prevents the detection of what he took  
Klaatu : 8/13/2019 4:24 pm : link
In comment 14529438 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
I believe.

So if you can't identify what he took, you can only punish a player for trying to cheat the test.

Tate flat out confessed that he took a PED.


I thought the cover-up was supposed to be worse than the crime?

Not in these cases, I guess.
That's the difference between collectively bargained policy  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/13/2019 4:26 pm : link
and state law. Sure it's a silly and obvious loophole, it saved Robert Quinn two game checks of pay vs. Tate foolishly costing himself millions.
RE: RE: RE: Next man up.  
Route 9 : 8/13/2019 4:26 pm : link
In comment 14529434 Klaatu said:
Quote:
No, my guess is that Fowler is going to make the team anyway.

I'm talking about someone on the bubble, someone who's looking at maybe making the practice squad if they're lucky. Someone like Reggie White, Jr., Alonzo Russell, or Alex Wesley.


Ok. Now I am ready. Victor Cruz 2.0 could be in that list and a possible Super Bowl on the horizon! Buckle up!
RE: RE: RE: RE: Next man up.  
Klaatu : 8/13/2019 4:41 pm : link
In comment 14529456 Route 9 said:
Quote:
In comment 14529434 Klaatu said:


Quote:


No, my guess is that Fowler is going to make the team anyway.

I'm talking about someone on the bubble, someone who's looking at maybe making the practice squad if they're lucky. Someone like Reggie White, Jr., Alonzo Russell, or Alex Wesley.



Ok. Now I am ready. Victor Cruz 2.0 could be in that list and a possible Super Bowl on the horizon! Buckle up!


You can joke about "Victor Cruz 2.0," but if Brandon Stokley had not gotten hurt, we may never have seen what Cruz could do (at least on the Giants), and might never have won another championship. For a guy on the bubble, it's all about getting one more opportunity to make a name for yourself that you might not have gotten otherwise. I don't like saying it like this, but the truth is that it's a chance to profit from Tate's misfortune (or perfidy, if you prefer).

One other thing about Fowler. He was the last person to catch a pass from Peyton Manning. He could also be the last person to catch a pass from Eli Manning...which would be cool.
Bennie Fowler:  
GiantSteps : 8/13/2019 4:43 pm : link
Ender of Mannings
It sucks  
UConn4523 : 8/13/2019 4:46 pm : link
but 2020 will have a ton of open doors, sounds like we just gained flexibility for that which is great.
Klaatu  
ColHowPepper : 8/13/2019 4:46 pm : link
or Slayton in that group
RE: Klaatu  
Klaatu : 8/13/2019 4:48 pm : link
In comment 14529470 ColHowPepper said:
Quote:
or Slayton in that group


Slayton's a 5th Round pick (albeit a late one). If he can find the field without a map and a compass he's going to make the team.
RE: RE: ...  
Brown_Hornet : 8/13/2019 5:05 pm : link
In comment 14529389 cjac said:
Quote:
In comment 14529382 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


Kimberly Jones
@KimJonesSports

19s
Now that itís official, as most figured it would be, thereís a lot here. Bottom line, Tate wonít play at Dallas, vs Buffalo, at TB & vs Wash. And, as @MikeGarafolo
noted earlier, his guaranteed $$ for 2020 voids.



3-1, no problem

That's not terribly realistic...
... Seriously, who is the 1?

4-0
Slayton  
ColHowPepper : 8/13/2019 5:23 pm : link
worry he (too) has rushed return from hammie...and we don't know what his hands (don't) hold for his future here
TJ Jones come on down!  
Blue21 : 8/13/2019 5:24 pm : link
.
Next time he should just talk to Antonio Cromartie ...  
Spider56 : 8/13/2019 5:25 pm : link
or maybe Philip Rivers.
RE: TJ Jones come on down!  
Klaatu : 8/13/2019 5:32 pm : link
In comment 14529504 Blue21 said:
Quote:
.


I wanted to label Jones an afterthought, since the only reason he's back with the team is because of injuries to other WR's, but when I think about a guy making the most of his opportunities, I keep coming back to him. It's still early in the process, but so far he's done a pretty good job of showing that he belongs here.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Next man up.  
Route 9 : 8/13/2019 5:53 pm : link
In comment 14529466 Klaatu said:
Quote:
You can joke about "Victor Cruz 2.0," but if Brandon Stokley had not gotten hurt, we may never have seen what Cruz could do (at least on the Giants), and might never have won another championship. For a guy on the bubble, it's all about getting one more opportunity to make a name for yourself that you might not have gotten otherwise. I don't like saying it like this, but the truth is that it's a chance to profit from Tate's misfortune (or perfidy, if you prefer).

One other thing about Fowler. He was the last person to catch a pass from Peyton Manning. He could also be the last person to catch a pass from Eli Manning...which would be cool.


Hixon, too. He was injured in week 2 vs the Rams on MNF.
Sigh  
5BowlsSoon : 8/13/2019 6:21 pm : link
I was actually hoping because it took so long to finally tell us that maybe they were looking very hard to find an exception for this model citizen seeing that he was just trying to make a baby. But I guess the rule allows for zero discretion. Oh well.....I hope this at least gives us more cap space.
Jones, Sheppard and Latimer  
Dankbeerman : 8/13/2019 6:56 pm : link
are all impactful ST players. Fowler is not likely to win a spot just as a WR.

I feel like White and Slayton are ahead of Fowler based on upside.
...  
christian : 8/13/2019 7:36 pm : link
As much as I hated the Tate signing, this leaves a ridiculously thin receiving core.

The Giants 3 receiver set is Shepard, Latimer, and Fowler. Really try that on for size.
RE: ...  
Jimmy Googs : 8/13/2019 8:10 pm : link
In comment 14529583 christian said:
Quote:
As much as I hated the Tate signing, this leaves a ridiculously thin receiving core.

The Giants 3 receiver set is Shepard, Latimer, and Fowler. Really try that on for size.


just punt...
...  
christian : 8/13/2019 8:28 pm : link
I don't see much to be optimistic about with this group. Hopefully one of the rookies punches above his weight and really impresses.

The optmism for the Latimer, Fowler, Shepard group reminds me in a way of how many saw the offensive line going into last year. A lot of hope career fringe guys like Omameh, Pulley, Halopio would develop into something they never were a few years into their careers.

I always assume guys like that are good enough to stick around, but not make a big impact, if they are hitting 3,4,5 years in the league.
This leagueís punishment flowchart  
Hsilwek92 : 8/13/2019 8:54 pm : link
must fucking look like Escherís Relativity.
At our weakest position too....  
Torrag : 8/13/2019 9:51 pm : link
dumb fuck.
Man Eli better get some time in preseason  
justafan : 8/13/2019 10:30 pm : link
with these no-name receivers that we'll be trotting out week 1.
To be expected  
Bluesbreaker : 8/14/2019 12:02 am : link
But this stinks we have no threat at WR . granted it was
slim pickings as it was .
too bad they couldn't swing a deal but we will just have to
make due with what we got .
It'll be the same group of receivers...  
Milton : 8/14/2019 12:50 am : link
...that the Giants had some success with over the second half of last year. Only now they will have a full training camp under their belts to go along with it (and an improved OL protecting Eli). Golden Tate is a nice addition, but he won't be the difference between winning and losing this year.
And because it voids the 2020 guarantees...  
Milton : 8/14/2019 12:54 am : link
...it turns this year into a veritable contract year for him. I'm not saying that Tate ain't a true professional, but it doesn't hurt that he knows he has to earn that 2020 salary in 2019. He won't be afforded a mulligan.
Now, it may be apples to  
section125 : 8/14/2019 7:17 am : link
oranges, but the Patriots don't have big name receivers and they do just fine. They've done it with TEs and slot receivers.
True (if you don't count Randy Moss) but we don't have a Gronk  
CT Charlie : 8/14/2019 8:30 am : link
Edelman, Hernandez...
RE: Now, it may be apples to  
christian : 8/14/2019 8:45 am : link
In comment 14529819 section125 said:
Quote:
oranges, but the Patriots don't have big name receivers and they do just fine. They've done it with TEs and slot receivers.


The Pats arguably had the best TE ever just retire who averaged 14.5 YPC last year, and they also had 2 pretty good WRs outside guys combine for over 75 balls, 1200 yards at over 16 YPC (Hogan and Gordon).

Eddleman had has typical high target year from the slot, and they also threw a ton of balls to their RBs.

They threw to every level of the field, and when they had injuries and suspensions relied on their run game more.

Hopefully one of the rookies emerges as an outside threat, and that opens things for a similar approach by the Giants.
The production in the passing game is going to surprise many here  
Chris684 : 8/14/2019 9:22 am : link
I suspect.

They are going "by committee" and they will be fine.

Eli's week 1 targets will still consist off Shep, Latimer, Engram and Barkley with a stable of guys currently competing for catches after that.
RE: RE: Robert Quinn Cowboy's  
Gatorade Dunk : 8/14/2019 9:34 am : link
In comment 14529401 ron mexico said:
Quote:
In comment 14529396 David_Upstate said:


Quote:


Why did Robert Quinn only get 2 and Tate got 4 thought it was 4 across the board?



Quinn got popped for a masking agent while Tate tested positive for an actual PED

Is that accurate? I figured Clomid itself was a masking agent (since, other than Tate, the only people I know who have taken it are Mrs. Dunk's friends trying to have kids).
.  
arcarsenal : 8/14/2019 9:45 am : link
I think we're going to like TJ Jones. No one will mistake him for Julio, but I think he'll make some plays and make the most of his chance here. As long as we have Shep ready to roll in Dallas, I don't think no Tate will be devastating for 4 games.

Everything's going to run through Barkley and I think the OL is going to be markedly better.
RE: RE: RE: Robert Quinn Cowboy's  
shyster : 8/14/2019 10:29 am : link
In comment 14529892 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:



Is that accurate? I figured Clomid itself was a masking agent (since, other than Tate, the only people I know who have taken it are Mrs. Dunk's friends trying to have kids).


Barry Bonds, Jason Giambi and the rest of the BALCO crew say hello:

Quote:
ESPN reported earlier that testing showed Ramirez had used hCG, which is typically used by steroid users to restart their bodies' natural testosterone production as they come off a steroid cycle. It is similar to Clomid, the drug Barry Bonds, Jason Giambi and others used as clients of BALCO.


Robert Mathis of Colts was suspended four games for Clomid in 2014.

In the overall drug regimen, Clomid is not the athlete's primary testosterone booster, but it does boost, and it's effect in countering the negative effects of steroid or artificial testosterone use/abuse is not a masking purpose as such.


espn - ( New Window )
RE: Now, it may be apples to  
jcn56 : 8/14/2019 10:40 am : link
In comment 14529819 section125 said:
Quote:
oranges, but the Patriots don't have big name receivers and they do just fine. They've done it with TEs and slot receivers.


They do that with a lot of positions. Unfortunately, they seem to be the only ones who can do it successfully.
.  
arcarsenal : 8/14/2019 10:44 am : link
I still believe in the theory that you build a football team from the inside out.

To me, WR is an important position - but if you had to identify the least important position to have star power on an offense, wouldn't you pick WR? I would.

I'd much rather have the road grading line, elite RB and get good QB play. I'd even prefer to have a two-way star TE over a great WR.

(We don't have all of these things yet, but I think this is how we're constructing the team now - whereas Reese used to routinely seem to take the opposite approach)
Is that the case?  
jcn56 : 8/14/2019 10:48 am : link
The fact that they just cluster drafted DBs but they're absent a solid pass rusher would seem to indicate otherwise.

I think you guys mix up the ability to execute vs plan - it's not that Reese didn't try to build up the lines - he spent both FA and draft resources there - he just failed, miserably when it came to the OL in particular.

I don't think there's any magic formula for building a team - inside out, lines first, etc. I think where Belichick excels is in crafting game plans for the personnel he does have, and for drafting players that he knows he can use constructively.
RE: .  
christian : 8/14/2019 11:03 am : link
In comment 14530020 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
I still believe in the theory that you build a football team from the inside out.

To me, WR is an important position - but if you had to identify the least important position to have star power on an offense, wouldn't you pick WR? I would.

I'd much rather have the road grading line, elite RB and get good QB play. I'd even prefer to have a two-way star TE over a great WR.

(We don't have all of these things yet, but I think this is how we're constructing the team now - whereas Reese used to routinely seem to take the opposite approach)


Given the absolute bias in the rules to the advantage of the offense in the passing game, and against the defense in the pass rushing and defending game, I think the wisest approach is to have a compliment of weapons that can exploit that advantage, independent of position.

You also have to be able to attack the defense at all levels in the passing game. Which of course also opens up the run game.

Where I see the Giants biggest hole is a weapon(s) who can stretch the defense at the outer edges of the field, and make those plays consistently. Tate, Shepard, Ellison, and Barkley (by virtue of his position) are aren't getting behind defenses based on their career track records. Maybe that changes?

The group of Fowler, Latimer, and Shepard in 16 career years have never eclipsed 30 catches in a season. Maybe that changes?

.  
arcarsenal : 8/14/2019 11:04 am : link
For the most part, yes - I do think that's the case.

Dexter Lawrence isn't a DB. Neither is BJ Hill. Or RJ McIntosh. Or Chris Slayton.

The DB depth needed to be replenished. We did sign Markus Golden and we drafted Carter last year.

Of course you need to actually draft the right players. That goes without saying. Jerry Reese continually failed to build or reinforce the offensive line.

You're not going to get anywhere if you have an elite WR or a great WR group but you can't pass protect or run the football.

Some things don't change much. The team should be built from the inside out.
Did Barkley and Evans get cut or hurt. They will be have to utilized  
fredgbrown : 8/14/2019 11:06 am : link
more in the passing game. If the offensive really is improved and gives Eli time to find a receiver and Barkley running room they will be ok.
.  
arcarsenal : 8/14/2019 11:07 am : link
I think Coleman would have been an ideal candidate for that, christian... unfortunately, he's done for the year and there's nothing we can really do about it.

Our WR group leaves much to be desired right now. I'm not advocating ignoring the position or completely de-emphasizing it as much as I think you want to have the other pieces in place first and treat WR like a cherry to put you over the top.

The Giants aren't a finished product yet. We need better OL depth, we need more WR talent and we need more pass rushers. Those will all be major focus areas next offseason and I think 2020 will be the time to start expecting a run at the division and the playoffs.

Dallas had a very non-descript group before they made a move for Cooper. And once they had Cooper, he made a really big difference. But without that line and without their ground game, Cooper makes much less sense and has less impact.
RE: .  
jcn56 : 8/14/2019 11:24 am : link
In comment 14530046 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
For the most part, yes - I do think that's the case.

Dexter Lawrence isn't a DB. Neither is BJ Hill. Or RJ McIntosh. Or Chris Slayton.

The DB depth needed to be replenished. We did sign Markus Golden and we drafted Carter last year.

Of course you need to actually draft the right players. That goes without saying. Jerry Reese continually failed to build or reinforce the offensive line.

You're not going to get anywhere if you have an elite WR or a great WR group but you can't pass protect or run the football.

Some things don't change much. The team should be built from the inside out.


Still don't see a viable edge rusher here, and that's a big part of the 'build the lines' strategy.

I don't think the strategy needs to be inside or out, OL first, or anything like that. I think the bottom line is to build units that have solid players across the board even if you're absent any superstars, and that requires good cooperation between the coaching staff and the FO to make sure that the players signed fit what the coaches are trying to do.

I think that's where Belichick excels, which is why players will leave the Patriots and more often than not amount to very little. He's not a great GM as a standalone, but in tandem with his coaching ability he's the best in the business. He can get by with less than great WRs because he can scheme up guys that would probably be role players at best elsewhere. Doesn't hurt that he's got an all time great at QB either.
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arcarsenal : 8/14/2019 11:31 am : link
Well, if you expected every piece to be in place after this past offseason, I'm not sure what to tell you. We couldn't do everything at once - we simply didn't have the assets.

Not having a big time EDGE in place isn't really proof that we're not trying to fortify the lines and build outward, either.

More of Gettleman's moves point that way than do not. And again, he drafted Carter last year, signed Golden this year, and drafted Ximines this year. None of these guys are Kahlil Mack, but he's also not just ignoring the position - there are players being added to try and address the pass rush.

Sure, we could have taken Josh Allen 6th - but then we might still be wondering when the heck another QB is going to be on the roster to supplant Eli.

There are parts of the shopping list that still need to be addressed.

We saw what a football team with a great WR and crappy line is quite regularly through Beckham's time here. Usually a bad one.

I believe you can compete in this league with a top notch line and below average WR group. I don't believe you can do it the other way around - and this team has more or less proven that in spades, so we don't really need to look any further than here.

I didn't expect it to be in place after one year, no  
jcn56 : 8/14/2019 11:36 am : link
but I'm not the one advocating the strategy is 'build the line first' when they just drafted a bunch of DBs over positions on the line.

And IMO, it shouldn't be 'build the lines first' - it should be get the best players available to you that fit what the coach is trying to do. Obviously in extreme cases that doesn't work (you're not drafting QB when Eli is in his prime), but for the most part there's never a reason to bypass a better player for a weaker one because of a strategy.
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arcarsenal : 8/14/2019 11:55 am : link
Did you miss the draft or something?

He took a defensive lineman and an edge rusher before he drafted any of the DB's. You're making it sound like Gettleman went into this draft, took 10 DB's and left the building. Lawrence is a defensive lineman. Ximines is an edge rusher.

I didn't say they had to force this strategy to a "T" - I said for the most part, I believe that's the idea - and the roster moves coincide with that.

Did we not trade a top tier WR for a guard?

Getteman has only been here two years. He's drafted Hernandez, signed Solder, signed Remmers, traded for Zeitler, drafted Lawrence, drafted Hill, drafted McIntosh, drafted Slayton... but since he drafted Baker, Love and Ballentine, somehow there's not an emphasis here? I'd have to disagree.

I'm fairly sure they're trying to draft players who fit what the coach wants to do. That's kind of the idea. It's just that no team outside of NE has Bill Belichick as that coach.
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arcarsenal : 8/14/2019 11:59 am : link
Baker was sandwiched between Lawrence and Ximines... my mistake. But the general point holds.

We drafted 2 DL, EDGE, ILB, and OT.

Gettleman has pretty clearly emphasized rebuilding the lines. A lot of players have been signed and drafted along both of them in the last 2 years.
Some of the posters here are still pissed we didn't draft an offensive  
Zeke's Alibi : 8/14/2019 12:09 pm : link
lineman with a premium pick, but sometimes draft value doesn't line up. Next year is considered a much deeper class at tackle, like this one at corner, I would be shocked if we don't draft 2 tackles next year. Drafting the strength of the class is always a wise move as it pushes players down that generally aren't available. You don't draft for need. This is why DG says you don't draft hungry, it forces your hand, but he overtook a roster where the cupboard was bare. The Tate signing was about this, the FA class was weak, but he didn't want to be in a position where he had to burn a premium pick on WR.
RE: .  
cactus : 8/14/2019 2:58 pm : link
In comment 14530131 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
Did we not trade a top tier WR for a guard?


I thought the trade was Vernon for Zeitler, and Beckham for Peppers + picks. Was it actually 1 trade or is it being reported incorrectly as such all over the place
Not much comfort in the cap implications of Tate's suspension.  
Big Blue Blogger : 8/14/2019 3:02 pm : link
First, the math, as I understand it:
Tate's salary is reduced by 4/17ths ($464,706), because there are 17 weeks in the season. His prorated bonus is also reduced by 4/17ths ($588,235), which I guess represents an actual clawback; otherwise, I don't think the Giants would get relief. The outlier is his roster bonus, which appears (per Spotrac) to have been reduced by only 1/17th ($176,471). Looks like Tate's people protected that money. So in all, the Giants save about $1.23MM on this year's cap. And, as noted, Tate's guarantees are voided, so he's somewhat more cuttable in 2020.

The problem is that Tate is 31, and his value is highest in the first year or two of his four-year contract, while his year-one salary is by far the lowest of the four seasons. Missing the first four games, when he hasn't aged further and the Giants (and Eli Manning) desperately need a fast start, puts a much bigger dent in his likely contribution than just a small fraction of certain parts of his contract.

No harm done if the team wins without him, I suppose. Then again, if they win without him, why are they paying him all that money?

As for the reduction in 2020 dead money, that only matters if the signing turns out really, really badly. The dead money after 2020 is unchanged, because the 2021 and 2022 salaries weren't guaranteed to begin with. That's a good thing, because $8.5MM will be a lot to pay for a 33-year-old Golden Tate.

RE: RE: .  
Bill L : 8/14/2019 3:05 pm : link
In comment 14530332 cactus said:
Quote:
In comment 14530131 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


Did we not trade a top tier WR for a guard?



I thought the trade was Vernon for Zeitler, and Beckham for Peppers + picks. Was it actually 1 trade or is it being reported incorrectly as such all over the place


You have it right. But the two trades are linked because the Zeitler trade included at swap of third round (at least, I believe it was the third round) picks (giving us a worse pick) but then the Peppers trade included the picks swap being reversed.
Cactus: You are basically correct.  
Big Blue Blogger : 8/14/2019 3:06 pm : link
cactus said:
Quote:
I thought the trade was Vernon for Zeitler, and Beckham for Peppers + picks. Was it actually 1 trade or is it being reported incorrectly as such all over the place
The original agreement was Vernon and a pick swap for Zeitler. Because that trade hadn't been finalized with the League when they agreed on the OBJ deal, the teams combined the trades into one big deal and reversed the original draft pick component of the Vernon deal.
RE: RE: .  
ron mexico : 8/14/2019 3:06 pm : link
In comment 14530332 cactus said:
Quote:
In comment 14530131 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


Did we not trade a top tier WR for a guard?



I thought the trade was Vernon for Zeitler, and Beckham for Peppers + picks. Was it actually 1 trade or is it being reported incorrectly as such all over the place


you have it correct, although I'm not sure the distinction matters all that much

RE: Some of the posters here are still pissed we didn't draft an offensive  
Milton : 8/14/2019 3:37 pm : link
In comment 14530144 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
lineman with a premium pick, but sometimes draft value doesn't line up. Next year is considered a much deeper class at tackle, like this one at corner.
My recollection is just the opposite: this past draft was considered rich in OL and mediocre at best at CB. Just goes to show that with 32 teams at the table, it's more about the specific value when you're on the clock than it is the overall depth at any particular position.

I think the Giants targeted Baker and the CB position with one of their early picks but then couldn't pass up the value when Love and Ballentine were staring at them in rounds 4 and 6. I don't think it was the plan to cluster draft at the position, but I could be wrong. Especially when you consider they already had a virtual rookie in Beal in the mix.
Milton: Here's the assessment of the draft class that Gettleman shared  
Big Blue Blogger : 8/14/2019 4:05 pm : link
FWIW:
Quote:
The wides are real thick. The offensive tackles are thick. The secondary is thick. Corners and safeties. When I say thick, I am talking about up and down the draft. Rounds one through seven.
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