I wanted to label Jones an afterthought, since the only reason he's back with the team is because of injuries to other WR's, but when I think about a guy making the most of his opportunities, I keep coming back to him. It's still early in the process, but so far he's done a pretty good job of showing that he belongs here.
You can joke about "Victor Cruz 2.0," but if Brandon Stokley had not gotten hurt, we may never have seen what Cruz could do (at least on the Giants), and might never have won another championship. For a guy on the bubble, it's all about getting one more opportunity to make a name for yourself that you might not have gotten otherwise. I don't like saying it like this, but the truth is that it's a chance to profit from Tate's misfortune (or perfidy, if you prefer).
One other thing about Fowler. He was the last person to catch a pass from Peyton Manning. He could also be the last person to catch a pass from Eli Manning...which would be cool.
Hixon, too. He was injured in week 2 vs the Rams on MNF.
I was actually hoping because it took so long to finally tell us that maybe they were looking very hard to find an exception for this model citizen seeing that he was just trying to make a baby. But I guess the rule allows for zero discretion. Oh well.....I hope this at least gives us more cap space.
I don't see much to be optimistic about with this group. Hopefully one of the rookies punches above his weight and really impresses.
The optmism for the Latimer, Fowler, Shepard group reminds me in a way of how many saw the offensive line going into last year. A lot of hope career fringe guys like Omameh, Pulley, Halopio would develop into something they never were a few years into their careers.
I always assume guys like that are good enough to stick around, but not make a big impact, if they are hitting 3,4,5 years in the league.
But this stinks we have no threat at WR . granted it was
slim pickings as it was .
too bad they couldn't swing a deal but we will just have to
make due with what we got .
...that the Giants had some success with over the second half of last year. Only now they will have a full training camp under their belts to go along with it (and an improved OL protecting Eli). Golden Tate is a nice addition, but he won't be the difference between winning and losing this year.
...it turns this year into a veritable contract year for him. I'm not saying that Tate ain't a true professional, but it doesn't hurt that he knows he has to earn that 2020 salary in 2019. He won't be afforded a mulligan.
oranges, but the Patriots don't have big name receivers and they do just fine. They've done it with TEs and slot receivers.
The Pats arguably had the best TE ever just retire who averaged 14.5 YPC last year, and they also had 2 pretty good WRs outside guys combine for over 75 balls, 1200 yards at over 16 YPC (Hogan and Gordon).
Eddleman had has typical high target year from the slot, and they also threw a ton of balls to their RBs.
They threw to every level of the field, and when they had injuries and suspensions relied on their run game more.
Hopefully one of the rookies emerges as an outside threat, and that opens things for a similar approach by the Giants.
The production in the passing game is going to surprise many here Â
Why did Robert Quinn only get 2 and Tate got 4 thought it was 4 across the board?
Quinn got popped for a masking agent while Tate tested positive for an actual PED
Is that accurate? I figured Clomid itself was a masking agent (since, other than Tate, the only people I know who have taken it are Mrs. Dunk's friends trying to have kids).
I think we're going to like TJ Jones. No one will mistake him for Julio, but I think he'll make some plays and make the most of his chance here. As long as we have Shep ready to roll in Dallas, I don't think no Tate will be devastating for 4 games.
Everything's going to run through Barkley and I think the OL is going to be markedly better.
Is that accurate? I figured Clomid itself was a masking agent (since, other than Tate, the only people I know who have taken it are Mrs. Dunk's friends trying to have kids).
Barry Bonds, Jason Giambi and the rest of the BALCO crew say hello:
Quote:
ESPN reported earlier that testing showed Ramirez had used hCG, which is typically used by steroid users to restart their bodies' natural testosterone production as they come off a steroid cycle. It is similar to Clomid, the drug Barry Bonds, Jason Giambi and others used as clients of BALCO.
Robert Mathis of Colts was suspended four games for Clomid in 2014.
In the overall drug regimen, Clomid is not the athlete's primary testosterone booster, but it does boost, and it's effect in countering the negative effects of steroid or artificial testosterone use/abuse is not a masking purpose as such.
I still believe in the theory that you build a football team from the inside out.
To me, WR is an important position - but if you had to identify the least important position to have star power on an offense, wouldn't you pick WR? I would.
I'd much rather have the road grading line, elite RB and get good QB play. I'd even prefer to have a two-way star TE over a great WR.
(We don't have all of these things yet, but I think this is how we're constructing the team now - whereas Reese used to routinely seem to take the opposite approach)
The fact that they just cluster drafted DBs but they're absent a solid pass rusher would seem to indicate otherwise.
I think you guys mix up the ability to execute vs plan - it's not that Reese didn't try to build up the lines - he spent both FA and draft resources there - he just failed, miserably when it came to the OL in particular.
I don't think there's any magic formula for building a team - inside out, lines first, etc. I think where Belichick excels is in crafting game plans for the personnel he does have, and for drafting players that he knows he can use constructively.
I still believe in the theory that you build a football team from the inside out.
To me, WR is an important position - but if you had to identify the least important position to have star power on an offense, wouldn't you pick WR? I would.
I'd much rather have the road grading line, elite RB and get good QB play. I'd even prefer to have a two-way star TE over a great WR.
(We don't have all of these things yet, but I think this is how we're constructing the team now - whereas Reese used to routinely seem to take the opposite approach)
Given the absolute bias in the rules to the advantage of the offense in the passing game, and against the defense in the pass rushing and defending game, I think the wisest approach is to have a compliment of weapons that can exploit that advantage, independent of position.
You also have to be able to attack the defense at all levels in the passing game. Which of course also opens up the run game.
Where I see the Giants biggest hole is a weapon(s) who can stretch the defense at the outer edges of the field, and make those plays consistently. Tate, Shepard, Ellison, and Barkley (by virtue of his position) are aren't getting behind defenses based on their career track records. Maybe that changes?
The group of Fowler, Latimer, and Shepard in 16 career years have never eclipsed 30 catches in a season. Maybe that changes?
For the most part, yes - I do think that's the case.
Dexter Lawrence isn't a DB. Neither is BJ Hill. Or RJ McIntosh. Or Chris Slayton.
The DB depth needed to be replenished. We did sign Markus Golden and we drafted Carter last year.
Of course you need to actually draft the right players. That goes without saying. Jerry Reese continually failed to build or reinforce the offensive line.
You're not going to get anywhere if you have an elite WR or a great WR group but you can't pass protect or run the football.
Some things don't change much. The team should be built from the inside out.
Did Barkley and Evans get cut or hurt. They will be have to utilized Â
I think Coleman would have been an ideal candidate for that, christian... unfortunately, he's done for the year and there's nothing we can really do about it.
Our WR group leaves much to be desired right now. I'm not advocating ignoring the position or completely de-emphasizing it as much as I think you want to have the other pieces in place first and treat WR like a cherry to put you over the top.
The Giants aren't a finished product yet. We need better OL depth, we need more WR talent and we need more pass rushers. Those will all be major focus areas next offseason and I think 2020 will be the time to start expecting a run at the division and the playoffs.
Dallas had a very non-descript group before they made a move for Cooper. And once they had Cooper, he made a really big difference. But without that line and without their ground game, Cooper makes much less sense and has less impact.
For the most part, yes - I do think that's the case.
Dexter Lawrence isn't a DB. Neither is BJ Hill. Or RJ McIntosh. Or Chris Slayton.
The DB depth needed to be replenished. We did sign Markus Golden and we drafted Carter last year.
Of course you need to actually draft the right players. That goes without saying. Jerry Reese continually failed to build or reinforce the offensive line.
You're not going to get anywhere if you have an elite WR or a great WR group but you can't pass protect or run the football.
Some things don't change much. The team should be built from the inside out.
Still don't see a viable edge rusher here, and that's a big part of the 'build the lines' strategy.
I don't think the strategy needs to be inside or out, OL first, or anything like that. I think the bottom line is to build units that have solid players across the board even if you're absent any superstars, and that requires good cooperation between the coaching staff and the FO to make sure that the players signed fit what the coaches are trying to do.
I think that's where Belichick excels, which is why players will leave the Patriots and more often than not amount to very little. He's not a great GM as a standalone, but in tandem with his coaching ability he's the best in the business. He can get by with less than great WRs because he can scheme up guys that would probably be role players at best elsewhere. Doesn't hurt that he's got an all time great at QB either.
Well, if you expected every piece to be in place after this past offseason, I'm not sure what to tell you. We couldn't do everything at once - we simply didn't have the assets.
Not having a big time EDGE in place isn't really proof that we're not trying to fortify the lines and build outward, either.
More of Gettleman's moves point that way than do not. And again, he drafted Carter last year, signed Golden this year, and drafted Ximines this year. None of these guys are Kahlil Mack, but he's also not just ignoring the position - there are players being added to try and address the pass rush.
Sure, we could have taken Josh Allen 6th - but then we might still be wondering when the heck another QB is going to be on the roster to supplant Eli.
There are parts of the shopping list that still need to be addressed.
We saw what a football team with a great WR and crappy line is quite regularly through Beckham's time here. Usually a bad one.
I believe you can compete in this league with a top notch line and below average WR group. I don't believe you can do it the other way around - and this team has more or less proven that in spades, so we don't really need to look any further than here.
I didn't expect it to be in place after one year, no Â
but I'm not the one advocating the strategy is 'build the line first' when they just drafted a bunch of DBs over positions on the line.
And IMO, it shouldn't be 'build the lines first' - it should be get the best players available to you that fit what the coach is trying to do. Obviously in extreme cases that doesn't work (you're not drafting QB when Eli is in his prime), but for the most part there's never a reason to bypass a better player for a weaker one because of a strategy.
He took a defensive lineman and an edge rusher before he drafted any of the DB's. You're making it sound like Gettleman went into this draft, took 10 DB's and left the building. Lawrence is a defensive lineman. Ximines is an edge rusher.
I didn't say they had to force this strategy to a "T" - I said for the most part, I believe that's the idea - and the roster moves coincide with that.
Did we not trade a top tier WR for a guard?
Getteman has only been here two years. He's drafted Hernandez, signed Solder, signed Remmers, traded for Zeitler, drafted Lawrence, drafted Hill, drafted McIntosh, drafted Slayton... but since he drafted Baker, Love and Ballentine, somehow there's not an emphasis here? I'd have to disagree.
I'm fairly sure they're trying to draft players who fit what the coach wants to do. That's kind of the idea. It's just that no team outside of NE has Bill Belichick as that coach.
lineman with a premium pick, but sometimes draft value doesn't line up. Next year is considered a much deeper class at tackle, like this one at corner, I would be shocked if we don't draft 2 tackles next year. Drafting the strength of the class is always a wise move as it pushes players down that generally aren't available. You don't draft for need. This is why DG says you don't draft hungry, it forces your hand, but he overtook a roster where the cupboard was bare. The Tate signing was about this, the FA class was weak, but he didn't want to be in a position where he had to burn a premium pick on WR.
I thought the trade was Vernon for Zeitler, and Beckham for Peppers + picks. Was it actually 1 trade or is it being reported incorrectly as such all over the place
Not much comfort in the cap implications of Tate's suspension. Â
First, the math, as I understand it:
Tate's salary is reduced by 4/17ths ($464,706), because there are 17 weeks in the season. His prorated bonus is also reduced by 4/17ths ($588,235), which I guess represents an actual clawback; otherwise, I don't think the Giants would get relief. The outlier is his roster bonus, which appears (per Spotrac) to have been reduced by only 1/17th ($176,471). Looks like Tate's people protected that money. So in all, the Giants save about $1.23MM on this year's cap. And, as noted, Tate's guarantees are voided, so he's somewhat more cuttable in 2020.
The problem is that Tate is 31, and his value is highest in the first year or two of his four-year contract, while his year-one salary is by far the lowest of the four seasons. Missing the first four games, when he hasn't aged further and the Giants (and Eli Manning) desperately need a fast start, puts a much bigger dent in his likely contribution than just a small fraction of certain parts of his contract.
No harm done if the team wins without him, I suppose. Then again, if they win without him, why are they paying him all that money?
As for the reduction in 2020 dead money, that only matters if the signing turns out really, really badly. The dead money after 2020 is unchanged, because the 2021 and 2022 salaries weren't guaranteed to begin with. That's a good thing, because $8.5MM will be a lot to pay for a 33-year-old Golden Tate.
I thought the trade was Vernon for Zeitler, and Beckham for Peppers + picks. Was it actually 1 trade or is it being reported incorrectly as such all over the place
You have it right. But the two trades are linked because the Zeitler trade included at swap of third round (at least, I believe it was the third round) picks (giving us a worse pick) but then the Peppers trade included the picks swap being reversed.
I thought the trade was Vernon for Zeitler, and Beckham for Peppers + picks. Was it actually 1 trade or is it being reported incorrectly as such all over the place
The original agreement was Vernon and a pick swap for Zeitler. Because that trade hadn't been finalized with the League when they agreed on the OBJ deal, the teams combined the trades into one big deal and reversed the original draft pick component of the Vernon deal.
I thought the trade was Vernon for Zeitler, and Beckham for Peppers + picks. Was it actually 1 trade or is it being reported incorrectly as such all over the place
you have it correct, although I'm not sure the distinction matters all that much
RE: Some of the posters here are still pissed we didn't draft an offensive Â
lineman with a premium pick, but sometimes draft value doesn't line up. Next year is considered a much deeper class at tackle, like this one at corner.
My recollection is just the opposite: this past draft was considered rich in OL and mediocre at best at CB. Just goes to show that with 32 teams at the table, it's more about the specific value when you're on the clock than it is the overall depth at any particular position.
I think the Giants targeted Baker and the CB position with one of their early picks but then couldn't pass up the value when Love and Ballentine were staring at them in rounds 4 and 6. I don't think it was the plan to cluster draft at the position, but I could be wrong. Especially when you consider they already had a virtual rookie in Beal in the mix.
Milton: Here's the assessment of the draft class that Gettleman shared Â
The wides are real thick. The offensive tackles are thick. The secondary is thick. Corners and safeties. When I say thick, I am talking about up and down the draft. Rounds one through seven.
I wanted to label Jones an afterthought, since the only reason he's back with the team is because of injuries to other WR's, but when I think about a guy making the most of his opportunities, I keep coming back to him. It's still early in the process, but so far he's done a pretty good job of showing that he belongs here.
One other thing about Fowler. He was the last person to catch a pass from Peyton Manning. He could also be the last person to catch a pass from Eli Manning...which would be cool.
Hixon, too. He was injured in week 2 vs the Rams on MNF.
I feel like White and Slayton are ahead of Fowler based on upside.
The Giants 3 receiver set is Shepard, Latimer, and Fowler. Really try that on for size.
The Giants 3 receiver set is Shepard, Latimer, and Fowler. Really try that on for size.
just punt...
The optmism for the Latimer, Fowler, Shepard group reminds me in a way of how many saw the offensive line going into last year. A lot of hope career fringe guys like Omameh, Pulley, Halopio would develop into something they never were a few years into their careers.
I always assume guys like that are good enough to stick around, but not make a big impact, if they are hitting 3,4,5 years in the league.
slim pickings as it was .
too bad they couldn't swing a deal but we will just have to
make due with what we got .
The Pats arguably had the best TE ever just retire who averaged 14.5 YPC last year, and they also had 2 pretty good WRs outside guys combine for over 75 balls, 1200 yards at over 16 YPC (Hogan and Gordon).
Eddleman had has typical high target year from the slot, and they also threw a ton of balls to their RBs.
They threw to every level of the field, and when they had injuries and suspensions relied on their run game more.
Hopefully one of the rookies emerges as an outside threat, and that opens things for a similar approach by the Giants.
They are going "by committee" and they will be fine.
Eli's week 1 targets will still consist off Shep, Latimer, Engram and Barkley with a stable of guys currently competing for catches after that.
Quote:
Why did Robert Quinn only get 2 and Tate got 4 thought it was 4 across the board?
Quinn got popped for a masking agent while Tate tested positive for an actual PED
Is that accurate? I figured Clomid itself was a masking agent (since, other than Tate, the only people I know who have taken it are Mrs. Dunk's friends trying to have kids).
Everything's going to run through Barkley and I think the OL is going to be markedly better.
Is that accurate? I figured Clomid itself was a masking agent (since, other than Tate, the only people I know who have taken it are Mrs. Dunk's friends trying to have kids).
Barry Bonds, Jason Giambi and the rest of the BALCO crew say hello:
Robert Mathis of Colts was suspended four games for Clomid in 2014.
In the overall drug regimen, Clomid is not the athlete's primary testosterone booster, but it does boost, and it's effect in countering the negative effects of steroid or artificial testosterone use/abuse is not a masking purpose as such.
espn - ( New Window )
They do that with a lot of positions. Unfortunately, they seem to be the only ones who can do it successfully.
To me, WR is an important position - but if you had to identify the least important position to have star power on an offense, wouldn't you pick WR? I would.
I'd much rather have the road grading line, elite RB and get good QB play. I'd even prefer to have a two-way star TE over a great WR.
(We don't have all of these things yet, but I think this is how we're constructing the team now - whereas Reese used to routinely seem to take the opposite approach)
I think you guys mix up the ability to execute vs plan - it's not that Reese didn't try to build up the lines - he spent both FA and draft resources there - he just failed, miserably when it came to the OL in particular.
I don't think there's any magic formula for building a team - inside out, lines first, etc. I think where Belichick excels is in crafting game plans for the personnel he does have, and for drafting players that he knows he can use constructively.
To me, WR is an important position - but if you had to identify the least important position to have star power on an offense, wouldn't you pick WR? I would.
I'd much rather have the road grading line, elite RB and get good QB play. I'd even prefer to have a two-way star TE over a great WR.
(We don't have all of these things yet, but I think this is how we're constructing the team now - whereas Reese used to routinely seem to take the opposite approach)
Given the absolute bias in the rules to the advantage of the offense in the passing game, and against the defense in the pass rushing and defending game, I think the wisest approach is to have a compliment of weapons that can exploit that advantage, independent of position.
You also have to be able to attack the defense at all levels in the passing game. Which of course also opens up the run game.
Where I see the Giants biggest hole is a weapon(s) who can stretch the defense at the outer edges of the field, and make those plays consistently. Tate, Shepard, Ellison, and Barkley (by virtue of his position) are aren't getting behind defenses based on their career track records. Maybe that changes?
The group of Fowler, Latimer, and Shepard in 16 career years have never eclipsed 30 catches in a season. Maybe that changes?
Dexter Lawrence isn't a DB. Neither is BJ Hill. Or RJ McIntosh. Or Chris Slayton.
The DB depth needed to be replenished. We did sign Markus Golden and we drafted Carter last year.
Of course you need to actually draft the right players. That goes without saying. Jerry Reese continually failed to build or reinforce the offensive line.
You're not going to get anywhere if you have an elite WR or a great WR group but you can't pass protect or run the football.
Some things don't change much. The team should be built from the inside out.
Our WR group leaves much to be desired right now. I'm not advocating ignoring the position or completely de-emphasizing it as much as I think you want to have the other pieces in place first and treat WR like a cherry to put you over the top.
The Giants aren't a finished product yet. We need better OL depth, we need more WR talent and we need more pass rushers. Those will all be major focus areas next offseason and I think 2020 will be the time to start expecting a run at the division and the playoffs.
Dallas had a very non-descript group before they made a move for Cooper. And once they had Cooper, he made a really big difference. But without that line and without their ground game, Cooper makes much less sense and has less impact.
Dexter Lawrence isn't a DB. Neither is BJ Hill. Or RJ McIntosh. Or Chris Slayton.
The DB depth needed to be replenished. We did sign Markus Golden and we drafted Carter last year.
Of course you need to actually draft the right players. That goes without saying. Jerry Reese continually failed to build or reinforce the offensive line.
You're not going to get anywhere if you have an elite WR or a great WR group but you can't pass protect or run the football.
Some things don't change much. The team should be built from the inside out.
Still don't see a viable edge rusher here, and that's a big part of the 'build the lines' strategy.
I don't think the strategy needs to be inside or out, OL first, or anything like that. I think the bottom line is to build units that have solid players across the board even if you're absent any superstars, and that requires good cooperation between the coaching staff and the FO to make sure that the players signed fit what the coaches are trying to do.
I think that's where Belichick excels, which is why players will leave the Patriots and more often than not amount to very little. He's not a great GM as a standalone, but in tandem with his coaching ability he's the best in the business. He can get by with less than great WRs because he can scheme up guys that would probably be role players at best elsewhere. Doesn't hurt that he's got an all time great at QB either.
Not having a big time EDGE in place isn't really proof that we're not trying to fortify the lines and build outward, either.
More of Gettleman's moves point that way than do not. And again, he drafted Carter last year, signed Golden this year, and drafted Ximines this year. None of these guys are Kahlil Mack, but he's also not just ignoring the position - there are players being added to try and address the pass rush.
Sure, we could have taken Josh Allen 6th - but then we might still be wondering when the heck another QB is going to be on the roster to supplant Eli.
There are parts of the shopping list that still need to be addressed.
We saw what a football team with a great WR and crappy line is quite regularly through Beckham's time here. Usually a bad one.
I believe you can compete in this league with a top notch line and below average WR group. I don't believe you can do it the other way around - and this team has more or less proven that in spades, so we don't really need to look any further than here.
And IMO, it shouldn't be 'build the lines first' - it should be get the best players available to you that fit what the coach is trying to do. Obviously in extreme cases that doesn't work (you're not drafting QB when Eli is in his prime), but for the most part there's never a reason to bypass a better player for a weaker one because of a strategy.
He took a defensive lineman and an edge rusher before he drafted any of the DB's. You're making it sound like Gettleman went into this draft, took 10 DB's and left the building. Lawrence is a defensive lineman. Ximines is an edge rusher.
I didn't say they had to force this strategy to a "T" - I said for the most part, I believe that's the idea - and the roster moves coincide with that.
Did we not trade a top tier WR for a guard?
Getteman has only been here two years. He's drafted Hernandez, signed Solder, signed Remmers, traded for Zeitler, drafted Lawrence, drafted Hill, drafted McIntosh, drafted Slayton... but since he drafted Baker, Love and Ballentine, somehow there's not an emphasis here? I'd have to disagree.
I'm fairly sure they're trying to draft players who fit what the coach wants to do. That's kind of the idea. It's just that no team outside of NE has Bill Belichick as that coach.
We drafted 2 DL, EDGE, ILB, and OT.
Gettleman has pretty clearly emphasized rebuilding the lines. A lot of players have been signed and drafted along both of them in the last 2 years.
I thought the trade was Vernon for Zeitler, and Beckham for Peppers + picks. Was it actually 1 trade or is it being reported incorrectly as such all over the place
Tate's salary is reduced by 4/17ths ($464,706), because there are 17 weeks in the season. His prorated bonus is also reduced by 4/17ths ($588,235), which I guess represents an actual clawback; otherwise, I don't think the Giants would get relief. The outlier is his roster bonus, which appears (per Spotrac) to have been reduced by only 1/17th ($176,471). Looks like Tate's people protected that money. So in all, the Giants save about $1.23MM on this year's cap. And, as noted, Tate's guarantees are voided, so he's somewhat more cuttable in 2020.
The problem is that Tate is 31, and his value is highest in the first year or two of his four-year contract, while his year-one salary is by far the lowest of the four seasons. Missing the first four games, when he hasn't aged further and the Giants (and Eli Manning) desperately need a fast start, puts a much bigger dent in his likely contribution than just a small fraction of certain parts of his contract.
No harm done if the team wins without him, I suppose. Then again, if they win without him, why are they paying him all that money?
As for the reduction in 2020 dead money, that only matters if the signing turns out really, really badly. The dead money after 2020 is unchanged, because the 2021 and 2022 salaries weren't guaranteed to begin with. That's a good thing, because $8.5MM will be a lot to pay for a 33-year-old Golden Tate.
Quote:
Did we not trade a top tier WR for a guard?
I thought the trade was Vernon for Zeitler, and Beckham for Peppers + picks. Was it actually 1 trade or is it being reported incorrectly as such all over the place
You have it right. But the two trades are linked because the Zeitler trade included at swap of third round (at least, I believe it was the third round) picks (giving us a worse pick) but then the Peppers trade included the picks swap being reversed.
Quote:
Did we not trade a top tier WR for a guard?
I thought the trade was Vernon for Zeitler, and Beckham for Peppers + picks. Was it actually 1 trade or is it being reported incorrectly as such all over the place
you have it correct, although I'm not sure the distinction matters all that much
I think the Giants targeted Baker and the CB position with one of their early picks but then couldn't pass up the value when Love and Ballentine were staring at them in rounds 4 and 6. I don't think it was the plan to cluster draft at the position, but I could be wrong. Especially when you consider they already had a virtual rookie in Beal in the mix.