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Nothing like shutting up New England fans...

SFGFNCGiantsFan : 8/13/2019 7:23 pm
So I'm visiting relatives here in Maine & we're grilling tonight so I went out to get some meat, beers, & the like. I go up to the check out, proudly wearing my GIANTS cap, & this dude-probably in his mid to late 20s-goes 'Rough season ahead huh? We're going to kill you guys at Foxboro'. I don't say anything at first, but as I'm leaving I say 'Good luck this season. And we'll see you in Foxboro & hopefully beat your asses like we did in Super Bowls 42 & 46'. He reacted like someone had run over his dog.

I love having that to use on Patriot fans whenever they puff out their chest over a team 3/4ths of the region didn't even know existed prior to Belichick & TB.

And yes, cool story bro. :-)
Yeah, well, at this point it's like trying to one-up Yankee fans.  
81_Great_Dane : 8/13/2019 7:27 pm : link
We beat 'em a couple of times but they still have the best run of sustained success in the history of the league. They've got nothing to feel bad about and our team has been pretty blah for a long-ass time.
I have a great story along these lines  
montanagiant : 8/13/2019 7:27 pm : link
In 2008 I was at a trade show and overheard at the table next to me some Pats fans talking about how the Giants got lucky. I interjected and while it was nothing bad I made my point.

5 years later at the same yearly trade show unbelievably I run into these same 3 guys. Needless to say I could not resist saying "We were lucky again Ace huh?"

They had nothing
RE: Yeah, well, at this point it's like trying to one-up Yankee fans.  
BestFeature : 8/13/2019 7:32 pm : link
In comment 14529574 81_Great_Dane said:
Quote:
We beat 'em a couple of times but they still have the best run of sustained success in the history of the league. They've got nothing to feel bad about and our team has been pretty blah for a long-ass time.


Kinda agree with this. This was a good comeback in like 2013.
Would have been a better comeback also if the Eagles hadn't beaten...  
BestFeature : 8/13/2019 7:33 pm : link
...them too.
RE: Would have been a better comeback also if the Eagles hadn't beaten...  
section125 : 8/13/2019 7:36 pm : link
In comment 14529580 BestFeature said:
Quote:
...them too.


How did that happen????
Good for you SFGFNC. I live in New England. I've had to remind  
Blue21 : 8/13/2019 8:01 pm : link
them a few times and despite everything they've won it usually sobers them up pretty quick when I remind them they are 0-2 in the big games against us. 18-1 goes up their craw pretty good too.
RE: Yeah, well, at this point it's like trying to one-up Yankee fans.  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 8/13/2019 8:13 pm : link
In comment 14529574 81_Great_Dane said:
Quote:
We beat 'em a couple of times but they still have the best run of sustained success in the history of the league. They've got nothing to feel bad about and our team has been pretty blah for a long-ass time.


I get that, but I think going 2-0 against them in the Super Bowl-a perfect record vs. them- is something to use if they're trying to rub your nose in shit.
RE: I have a great story along these lines  
Junior22 : 8/13/2019 8:14 pm : link
In comment 14529575 montanagiant said:
Quote:
In 2008 I was at a trade show and overheard at the table next to me some Pats fans talking about how the Giants got lucky. I interjected and while it was nothing bad I made my point.

5 years later at the same yearly trade show unbelievably I run into these same 3 guys. Needless to say I could not resist saying "We were lucky again Ace huh?"

They had nothing


Umm they have 6 rings and been to SB 3 straight years...Am sure Pat fans are not depressed about the Giants beating them a decade ago
.  
Danny Kanell : 8/13/2019 8:47 pm : link
I was getting my balls busted by a Pats fan at the hotel bar in Disney. I was wearing a Giants hat and he saw my Giants tattoo. I laughed at him and said you realize despite all your success, you guys have a 16-0 banner hanging in Foxboro. Youíd think after all those wins, you wouldnít celebrate a team that didnít close the deal. Sad.
Their sustained success is unreal  
JesseS : 8/13/2019 9:03 pm : link
But it doesn't matter when the Super Bowls were. The giants loss to the niners still kills me. So I can imagine that anyone old enough to have watched the giants win against the patriots, twice, will still be pained to be reminded about those two games. The patriots have nothing to complain about, but in some ways, the giants don't either. Despite how bad we've been, 2 super bowls in a handful of years is awesome.
RE: Their sustained success is unreal  
JesseS : 8/13/2019 9:05 pm : link
In comment 14529657 JesseS said:
Quote:
But it doesn't matter when the Super Bowls were. The giants loss to the niners still kills me. So I can imagine that anyone old enough to have watched the giants win against the patriots, twice, will still be pained to be reminded about those two games. The patriots have nothing to complain about, but in some ways, the giants don't either. Despite how bad we've been, 2 super bowls in a handful of years is awesome.


That came out backwards - I mean any patriots fans still shouldn't have much to say to Giants fans - until the day I die. :)
Yeah, they're them and we're us  
DieHard : 8/13/2019 9:09 pm : link
And I'm sure just about all of us would gladly trade our successes for theirs. Still, we ruined their shot at 19-0 and the history books. That still has to sting, no matter what's happened since then.
I went to school in Rhode Island and was a Freshman  
732NYG : 8/13/2019 9:16 pm : link
the year the Red Sox best the Yankees in the ALCS and the Pats won the SB. New England fans were insufferable for the next few years...until 42. I wore my Shockley jersey to class for a month, and nobody could say shit. It was such a beautiful thing. Still wish nothing but the worst on New England sports fans. Trash people.
RE: I went to school in Rhode Island and was a Freshman  
732NYG : 8/13/2019 9:16 pm : link
In comment 14529670 732NYG said:
Quote:
the year the Red Sox best the Yankees in the ALCS and the Pats won the SB. New England fans were insufferable for the next few years...until 42. I wore my Shockley jersey to class for a month, and nobody could say shit. It was such a beautiful thing. Still wish nothing but the worst on New England sports fans. Trash people.


Beat*
Shockey*
I think saying Pats fans didn't know about football  
Rover : 8/13/2019 9:42 pm : link
Until BB and Brady is ignorant and wrong.
That would be like saying NY didn't know about the Giants from 1964-1983.
They were a shitshow.
RE: I think saying Pats fans didn't know about football  
732NYG : 8/13/2019 9:44 pm : link
In comment 14529704 Rover said:
Quote:
Until BB and Brady is ignorant and wrong.
That would be like saying NY didn't know about the Giants from 1964-1983.
They were a shitshow.


I actually met quite a few of my friends older relatives that were Giants fans, and from what Iíve been told, that wasnít uncommon before.
My college buddies are all from Boston  
mfsd : 8/13/2019 10:25 pm : link
Weíve been at war for 25 years. Itís all in good fun, although during the peak of the Yanks-Red Sox wars it got a little nasty.

As for the Pats, when they get rolling Iíll tweak them with the Eli 2-0 vs Pats in the Super Bowl

Theyíll of course come back with 6 rings to 2 (I remind them itís 4 Super Bowls and 8 NFL championships, but we go back to 1925, fine)

Then I crush them with this one...cell phones destroyed to hide evidence from the NFL: Brady 1, Eli 0
RE: RE: I have a great story along these lines  
mfsd : 8/13/2019 10:27 pm : link
In comment 14529609 Junior22 said:
Quote:
In comment 14529575 montanagiant said:


Quote:


In 2008 I was at a trade show and overheard at the table next to me some Pats fans talking about how the Giants got lucky. I interjected and while it was nothing bad I made my point.

5 years later at the same yearly trade show unbelievably I run into these same 3 guys. Needless to say I could not resist saying "We were lucky again Ace huh?"

They had nothing



Umm they have 6 rings and been to SB 3 straight years...Am sure Pat fans are not depressed about the Giants beating them a decade ago


They are absolutely still depressed about losing to the Giants in the Super Bowl twice. They learn their NY hatred before they learn to walk. 2007 was supposed to be the greatest team of all time. No matter how many rings they win, their 2 losses to us still burn.
I agree it does feel good..  
prdave73 : 8/13/2019 11:43 pm : link
Have a buddy of mine thatís a Pats fan and I let him have it all the time. I will say this, that Pats .Org is light years ahead of every other team. Maybe itís BB or just how well they run that Organization? I think itís a bit of both.
That pick they got on the 3rd rd is going to really help their pass rush.. That pick fits their scheme. Typical pick for them.
RE: RE: I have a great story along these lines  
montanagiant : 8/13/2019 11:59 pm : link
In comment 14529609 Junior22 said:
Quote:
In comment 14529575 montanagiant said:


Quote:


In 2008 I was at a trade show and overheard at the table next to me some Pats fans talking about how the Giants got lucky. I interjected and while it was nothing bad I made my point.

5 years later at the same yearly trade show unbelievably I run into these same 3 guys. Needless to say I could not resist saying "We were lucky again Ace huh?"

They had nothing



Umm they have 6 rings and been to SB 3 straight years...Am sure Pat fans are not depressed about the Giants beating them a decade ago

Lmao...Umm....We ruined their perfect season Ace and then followed up with another win as huge underdogs Skippy...LOL
RE: RE: RE: I have a great story along these lines  
montanagiant : 8/14/2019 12:00 am : link
In comment 14529754 mfsd said:
Quote:
In comment 14529609 Junior22 said:


Quote:


In comment 14529575 montanagiant said:


Quote:


In 2008 I was at a trade show and overheard at the table next to me some Pats fans talking about how the Giants got lucky. I interjected and while it was nothing bad I made my point.

5 years later at the same yearly trade show unbelievably I run into these same 3 guys. Needless to say I could not resist saying "We were lucky again Ace huh?"

They had nothing



Umm they have 6 rings and been to SB 3 straight years...Am sure Pat fans are not depressed about the Giants beating them a decade ago



They are absolutely still depressed about losing to the Giants in the Super Bowl twice. They learn their NY hatred before they learn to walk. 2007 was supposed to be the greatest team of all time. No matter how many rings they win, their 2 losses to us still burn.

Exactly, of course it eats them up and any real football fan would know that
Tom Brady getting outplayed by Eli twice  
BlackLight : 8/14/2019 2:16 am : link
in the Super Bowl will haunt Pats fans forever. Yeah, they've got six Lombardis, and losing to the Eagles probably didn't sting too bad given that Brady played like a God, but watching Eli take the trophy away from them twice is the pebble they'll never get out of their shoe.

Just remember this every time Bill Simmons or Katie Nolan or any other Masshole makes a crack about Eli. This is their consolation prize, ragging on a QB in his late 30s trying to survive playing behind one of the worst OLs in the league. Because he's got two Super Bowl MVP trophies sitting on his mantle in Hoboken.
I remember tipping an obnoxious Pats fan waiter....  
Emlen'sGremlins : 8/14/2019 2:20 am : link
....in Rhode Island $18.01. Lol!
RE: I remember tipping an obnoxious Pats fan waiter....  
ZoneXDOA : 8/14/2019 6:15 am : link
In comment 14529805 Emlen'sGremlins said:
Quote:
....in Rhode Island $18.01. Lol!
thatís great! I need to do that!
RE: I think saying Pats fans didn't know about football  
clarkie02360 : 8/14/2019 8:13 am : link
In comment 14529704 Rover said:
Quote:
Until BB and Brady is ignorant and wrong.
That would be like saying NY didn't know about the Giants from 1964-1983.
They were a shitshow.


There's a big difference, before BB/Parcels the Patriots couldn't sell half the stadium on game day. All their games were blacked out locally. While the Giants still sold out every game from '64-'80 during the shit show. Pats fans were non-existant when it came to Football before BB.
almost none of them  
pjcas18 : 8/14/2019 8:17 am : link
care anymore. sure they were devastated at the time - more so in 2008.

but now, any time i try and make a jab at them they just shrug and say 6 rings and 18 years of unprecedented dominance takes the sting out of it.

and i can tell they're not bullshitting, they don't care.

and when they see my Giants gear the look is more pity than hate.
as some of you may know  
Jints in Carolina : 8/14/2019 8:45 am : link
my friends own a sportsbar here in Raleigh. It happens to home to the NC Pats fan club...most people are cool, but some are the obnoxious kind. For years now they haven't tried to talk shit to me because they know I'm a Giants fan, and we are their kryptonite. It makes me happy.

And goddammit if only Landon Collins had held onto that Brady pass a few years ago.
Jints ... are you talking about the Brickhouse on Hillsborough ?  
Spider56 : 8/14/2019 8:58 am : link
I meet my son there for lunch a couple of times a month ... never realized it was a NE base place.
RE: Jints ... are you talking about the Brickhouse on Hillsborough ?  
Jints in Carolina : 8/14/2019 8:59 am : link
In comment 14529860 Spider56 said:
Quote:
I meet my son there for lunch a couple of times a month ... never realized it was a NE base place.


Yep that's the one...pay attention next time you're there....you'll see a lot of Pats shit hanging on the walls.
2007 playoff run was SO MUCH fun...  
x meadowlander : 8/14/2019 9:11 am : link
Öbecause you really had to have followed the team deeply to understand why they had a prayer in Dallas, in Green Bay and against New England.

I can remember a coworker, king of Fantasy Football know-it-all Niner fan proclaiming - it is OVER for your Giants, no way in hell they can win in Green Bay!

2 weeks later, I heard almost the same poem from him. Brady was UN-BEATABLE.

It was the best playoff run a fan could EVER ask for. Better than 86, better than 90 and 11.

I knew after that game, that it never would be that good again - THAT was the Giant money-shot I waited my whole life for - anything after has been gravy.
after SB42, as the fans filed out of the stadium..  
x meadowlander : 8/14/2019 9:13 am : link
...a mighty BOSTON SUCKS!!! chant echoed through the halls and ramps, out into the night.

RE: 2007 playoff run was SO MUCH fun...  
Jints in Carolina : 8/14/2019 9:15 am : link
In comment 14529869 x meadowlander said:
Quote:
Öbecause you really had to have followed the team deeply to understand why they had a prayer in Dallas, in Green Bay and against New England.

I can remember a coworker, king of Fantasy Football know-it-all Niner fan proclaiming - it is OVER for your Giants, no way in hell they can win in Green Bay!

2 weeks later, I heard almost the same poem from him. Brady was UN-BEATABLE.

It was the best playoff run a fan could EVER ask for. Better than 86, better than 90 and 11.

I knew after that game, that it never would be that good again - THAT was the Giant money-shot I waited my whole life for - anything after has been gravy.


Agreed....the once in a lifetime shot.
RE: as some of you may know  
Post Time : 8/14/2019 9:22 am : link
In comment 14529851 Jints in Carolina said:
Quote:
And goddammit if only Landon Collins had held onto that Brady pass a few years ago.

And if only Beckham had made a "football move" in the end zone...
I've lived in Western Mass  
gapofstrahan : 8/14/2019 11:56 am : link
all my life as a Giants fan. Nothing was more sweet than after those two Super Bowl wins; Pats fans talk a lot of shit for people who can't stand to lose.
In the truest of obnoxious traditions  
Hammer : 8/14/2019 12:52 pm : link
My 6'6" 310 pound son and my 6'7" 235 pound self went up to Boston about six months after the Giants beat the Pats in 2008.

We were standing outside Faneuil Hall when all of a sudden a bunch of Patriot's cheerleaders get out of a small bus and start handing out Patriot's swag.

Within ten minutes at least 50 people were milling around the ladies talking shit about how the Giants got lucky and how the Patriot's were going to run the table again.

I turned to my son and said, "wanna break some balls?"

He said "sure dad, what have you got in mind?"

I said follow my lead and started chanting "18 and 1".

We carried on for maybe 30 seconds. Everyone stopped what they were doing and shot us some pretty nasty looks. It's a wonder we didn't get assaulted.

It was epic.
RE: I think saying Pats fans didn't know about football  
Gatorade Dunk : 8/14/2019 1:28 pm : link
In comment 14529704 Rover said:
Quote:
Until BB and Brady is ignorant and wrong.
That would be like saying NY didn't know about the Giants from 1964-1983.
They were a shitshow.

No, it would be like acknowledging that until recently, Boston was much more avid about the Red Sox, Celtics, and Bruins and the Patriots were a distant 4th.

There really isn't a Giants comparison to be made.
RE: RE: I think saying Pats fans didn't know about football  
x meadowlander : 8/14/2019 1:55 pm : link
In comment 14530243 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 14529704 Rover said:


Quote:


Until BB and Brady is ignorant and wrong.
That would be like saying NY didn't know about the Giants from 1964-1983.
They were a shitshow.


No, it would be like acknowledging that until recently, Boston was much more avid about the Red Sox, Celtics, and Bruins and the Patriots were a distant 4th.

There really isn't a Giants comparison to be made.
Giants Stadium had a waiting list over a decade long from the day it was opened, at the height of their mediocrity.

Patriots were solid at multiple points over the Super Bowl era - Grogan Patriots were one of the leagues better teams - the organization contended through most of 76-86. If you look at their attendance numbers in Wikipedia, their numbers were average for the league - @50-60,000 per game.

When the Patriots were founded, Boston was a Giants town - it took generations to change the Celtic/Bruin/Red Sox crowd into Patriot fans.

And yeah, winning a shitload of Super Bowls will create a tsunami of Homer fans.
2 Thoughts  
Bernie : 8/14/2019 2:01 pm : link
1. To this day, one of my favorite shirts is the Better Than Perfect Giants T-shirt. Loved walking around Cape Cod wearing it.

2. I love telling Patriot fans that Eli owns Tom.
RE: RE: I think saying Pats fans didn't know about football  
Rover : 8/14/2019 11:10 pm : link
In comment 14529832 clarkie02360 said:
Quote:
In comment 14529704 Rover said:


Quote:


Until BB and Brady is ignorant and wrong.
That would be like saying NY didn't know about the Giants from 1964-1983.
They were a shitshow.



There's a big difference, before BB/Parcels the Patriots couldn't sell half the stadium on game day. All their games were blacked out locally. While the Giants still sold out every game from '64-'80 during the shit show. Pats fans were non-existant when it came to Football before BB.

Not true.
The 2nd Kraft bought the team, and they finally had a legit owner, they sold out.
They were just waiting for somebody credible to own the team.'
That is a big exaggeration.
RE: RE: RE: I think saying Pats fans didn't know about football  
Rover : 8/14/2019 11:12 pm : link
In comment 14530271 x meadowlander said:
Quote:
In comment 14530243 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 14529704 Rover said:


Quote:


Until BB and Brady is ignorant and wrong.
That would be like saying NY didn't know about the Giants from 1964-1983.
They were a shitshow.


No, it would be like acknowledging that until recently, Boston was much more avid about the Red Sox, Celtics, and Bruins and the Patriots were a distant 4th.

There really isn't a Giants comparison to be made.

Giants Stadium had a waiting list over a decade long from the day it was opened, at the height of their mediocrity.

Patriots were solid at multiple points over the Super Bowl era - Grogan Patriots were one of the leagues better teams - the organization contended through most of 76-86. If you look at their attendance numbers in Wikipedia, their numbers were average for the league - @50-60,000 per game.

When the Patriots were founded, Boston was a Giants town - it took generations to change the Celtic/Bruin/Red Sox crowd into Patriot fans.

And yeah, winning a shitload of Super Bowls will create a tsunami of Homer fans.

Aside from a fluke season here and there the Pats were a joke with crappy owners, until Kraft bought the team in 1994 and they sold every game since then, so the idea they are a bandwagon fanbase is non sense.

Heck the Iggles almost moved in the mid 80s to Phoenix, they couldn't sell out in the 80s just a few seasons from making the Super Bowl, are they bandwagon?
When  
crick n NC : 8/14/2019 11:33 pm : link
You're debating whether, or how many "bandwagon" fans a team has then perhaps it's time to recognize that winning produces fans whether we decide they are fans or not.

Also, good for them to have success, success comes and goes over time, perhaps more than others considering several factors.

I could be considered a "bandwagon" fan since I was drawn to the giants through winning that was brought forward by Lawrence Taylor.

New England  
pjcas18 : 8/15/2019 8:50 am : link
did not thrive simply when Kraft bought the team.

It was the year before that started the revival/rising, 1993, when Parcells was named head coach and that is also the time when a ground swell of New England Giants fans began to more seriously embrace the Patriots.

Parcells and Bledsoe breathed life into a dead franchise.

but...after the 1996 SB loss to GB and the Parcells to the Jets debacle the franchise once again bottomed out.

The old stadium was a shit hole, the metal bench seats were worse or on par with many college stadiums and the place was empty a lot of Sundays.

Gillette stadium, Belichick and Brady turned what Parcells did into a juggernaut (so Kraft deserves some credit, but this was 7 years after he bought the team) and I think at this point it will take some prolonged losing to revert to their old self, the problem now is the kids, the current generation grew up with a dynasty, I fear that will endure even some significant losing.

I hope I'm wrong.
RE: New England  
Rover : 8/15/2019 9:43 am : link
In comment 14530872 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
did not thrive simply when Kraft bought the team.

It was the year before that started the revival/rising, 1993, when Parcells was named head coach and that is also the time when a ground swell of New England Giants fans began to more seriously embrace the Patriots.

Parcells and Bledsoe breathed life into a dead franchise.

but...after the 1996 SB loss to GB and the Parcells to the Jets debacle the franchise once again bottomed out.

The old stadium was a shit hole, the metal bench seats were worse or on par with many college stadiums and the place was empty a lot of Sundays.

Gillette stadium, Belichick and Brady turned what Parcells did into a juggernaut (so Kraft deserves some credit, but this was 7 years after he bought the team) and I think at this point it will take some prolonged losing to revert to their old self, the problem now is the kids, the current generation grew up with a dynasty, I fear that will endure even some significant losing.

I hope I'm wrong.
THey've sold out every game since Kraft became owner, the fanbase was always there just waiting for some semblance of legitimacy.
RE: RE: New England  
pjcas18 : 8/15/2019 10:01 am : link
In comment 14530949 Rover said:
Quote:
In comment 14530872 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


did not thrive simply when Kraft bought the team.

It was the year before that started the revival/rising, 1993, when Parcells was named head coach and that is also the time when a ground swell of New England Giants fans began to more seriously embrace the Patriots.

Parcells and Bledsoe breathed life into a dead franchise.

but...after the 1996 SB loss to GB and the Parcells to the Jets debacle the franchise once again bottomed out.

The old stadium was a shit hole, the metal bench seats were worse or on par with many college stadiums and the place was empty a lot of Sundays.

Gillette stadium, Belichick and Brady turned what Parcells did into a juggernaut (so Kraft deserves some credit, but this was 7 years after he bought the team) and I think at this point it will take some prolonged losing to revert to their old self, the problem now is the kids, the current generation grew up with a dynasty, I fear that will endure even some significant losing.

I hope I'm wrong.

THey've sold out every game since Kraft became owner, the fanbase was always there just waiting for some semblance of legitimacy.


Attendance and ticket sales are different.

Plus, the Patriots have one of the smallest stadiums in the league.

Broncos, Packers, Steelers, etc. all have longer streaks and have had periods of gloom and bigger stadiums.

Broncos sell out streak goes back to the 70's.

RE: RE: New England  
Danny Kanell : 8/15/2019 10:04 am : link
In comment 14530949 Rover said:
Quote:
In comment 14530872 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


did not thrive simply when Kraft bought the team.

It was the year before that started the revival/rising, 1993, when Parcells was named head coach and that is also the time when a ground swell of New England Giants fans began to more seriously embrace the Patriots.

Parcells and Bledsoe breathed life into a dead franchise.

but...after the 1996 SB loss to GB and the Parcells to the Jets debacle the franchise once again bottomed out.

The old stadium was a shit hole, the metal bench seats were worse or on par with many college stadiums and the place was empty a lot of Sundays.

Gillette stadium, Belichick and Brady turned what Parcells did into a juggernaut (so Kraft deserves some credit, but this was 7 years after he bought the team) and I think at this point it will take some prolonged losing to revert to their old self, the problem now is the kids, the current generation grew up with a dynasty, I fear that will endure even some significant losing.

I hope I'm wrong.

THey've sold out every game since Kraft became owner, the fanbase was always there just waiting for some semblance of legitimacy.


yeah but...what were the splits?
I ran into some snarky Boston fans here in NY  
cjac : 8/15/2019 10:06 am : link
and they made some comment to me about the Giants sucking

My reply was - I love the Patriots, we took 2 SB trophies from you, i added that i'm a Met fan and that was 3 championships facing that city
Also about the Patriots  
cjac : 8/15/2019 10:07 am : link
when that Brady/Bellicheck dynasty comes to and end, you are going to have some sad sad sad fans
Yep,2-0 vs the Pats in SBs,Eli w/the 2 MVPs  
TheMick7 : 8/15/2019 11:04 am : link
and,of course,the clincher,the argument ender,the turn their faces beet-red,18-1!That never gets old!
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