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Thoughts on Webb/Geno/McAdoo now?

BigBlueDownTheShore : 8/16/2019 4:01 pm
Listening to the WFAN today, they were talking about Davis Webb being cut by the Jets. Ben wasn’t a great manager of a locker room and not a great fit for NY as a head coach, but most killed him for starting Geno over giving Webb a shot. Knowing how Webb panned out, do you still hold it against him?
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RE: McAdoo  
McNally's_Nuts : 8/16/2019 4:24 pm : link
In comment 14532370 lax counsel said:
Quote:
Was a terrible coach, but I do believe he knew Webb was not going to be an NFL qb. He never got a shot in practice and it was likely due to the fact that he could not play the position at a high level.

As I said in threads a couple of years ago, if McAdoo and/or Reese truly believed Webb was the goods, why would they not have put him in position a lot earlier when the season was lost? There is no better story to tell your boss than you are developing/drafted the next franchise qb so you should get at least another year.


How does that make any sense? So they just burned a 3rd round pick for no reason? Didn’t think they could develop him?
RE: RE: RE: I'm not an Eli apologist, but the explanation BMac  
ron mexico : 8/16/2019 4:25 pm : link
In comment 14532371 ChaChing said:
Quote:
In comment 14532358 ron mexico said:


Quote:


In comment 14532355 ChaChing said:
Quote:
gave..."Geno gives us a better chance to win"...seems right out of the Mickey Callaway playbook (As has been suggested in Mets thread)

(Have they ever been seen at the same place & time?)


Not that there is much reason to defend Mac, but he never said that.


Fair enough, thought I read it somewhere, but maybe not.

He DID later tell Geno he thought he should be starting over Eli tho...but that's not what I was talking about, my bad Geno / Eli - ( New Window )


thats word of mouth from a guy who thinks the world is flat.
RE: He wasn't a good coach  
christian : 8/16/2019 4:25 pm : link
In comment 14532359 Metnut said:
Quote:
but Jerry Reese didn't do him any favors other than drafting Beckham.


I mean aside from the 4 All Pro defenders in 2016 and the other highly regarded defensive players that netted the 2nd best defense in the NFL that year.
I think you are thinking of this exchange  
ron mexico : 8/16/2019 4:27 pm : link
the press tried to bait him into saying Geno gives him a better chance to win and he refused the bait

Q: With that being said, how do you look at the locker room and your team and say that Geno Smith gives you a better chance to win than Eli Manning?
A: We’re confident that we can put a plan together to put Geno in a position to be successful and go win the game.
It was a product of the organizational malfuction  
BillT : 8/16/2019 4:29 pm : link
Nothing was working. The drafts, the overall talent acquisition, the coaching and the team were crashing. Folks were desperate and it seemed any solution was better than doing nothing. But nothing was going to change the downward spiral. And the way they did that with the owner out of town and the cavalier way they did it speaks volumes to the overall dysfunction. Bad in every way.
Geno had zero future here.  
Big Blue '56 : 8/16/2019 4:30 pm : link
If Webb had no chance to be your guy or to be developed, then go with Eli the balance of the year. Not rocket science, imo
Yeah i just stumbled on that...  
ChaChing : 8/16/2019 4:30 pm : link
also missed a thread around here in 2017 discussing the same. He didn't say it
Hindsight being 20/20 ...  
FStubbs : 8/16/2019 4:34 pm : link
... we know now that Webb sucks.

However, Geno Smith should have been cut and allowed to go to a contender (that would be dumb enough to sign on for his services) and Webb should've been properly prepared for the #2 spot. Sure, he would've failed, but the team would've been better served knowing that going into 2018.

And who knows what Webb would've done with clear direction as #2.At the very least, McAdoo and Reese probably survive the Raiders game.

.... on second thought, continue as it was.
I actually think it was forced on him to some degree  
ron mexico : 8/16/2019 4:35 pm : link
Otherwise, why wait for mathematical elimination.

He was asked multiple times if it was his decision and he answers it the same way each time.

Q: Did you run this by ownership and was this a conversation that you had with them and general manager Jerry Reese?
A: I spoke to Jerry and I spoke to ownership – yes. We’re on the same page.

Q: You went to Jerry Reese and John Mara after you made this decision independently?
A: We’re all on the same page.

Q: Whose idea was it – do you go to them after the decision is made?
A: We’re all on the same page with the decision.

Webb + Geno + Mcadoo =  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 8/16/2019 4:36 pm : link
Total absolute complete clusterfuck.
RE: Geno had zero future here.  
christian : 8/16/2019 4:38 pm : link
In comment 14532381 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
If Webb had no chance to be your guy or to be developed, then go with Eli the balance of the year. Not rocket science, imo


The often missed component was the Giants were evaluating not only the QB position, but the surrounding components.

Without replacing variables in the equation, it's impossible to know which one(s) were the issue.

Swapping Manning for Smith showed the issues were greater than Manning, that it wasn't just his lack of mobility and age, but deep issues with the line. That a younger, more mobile QB had the same issues put that to bed.

Sitting Manning fast-tracked a lot of good; firing Reese, McAdoo, and investing in the line. It's really one of the best things the Giants have done in a while.
RE: He wasn't a good coach  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 8/16/2019 4:41 pm : link
In comment 14532359 Metnut said:
Quote:
but Jerry Reese didn't do him any favors other than drafting Beckham.

In hindsight Donald and Martin would have been better.

Heck that's not even hindsight, bbi had their colle tive eyes on those two, obj was a bit off radar. Another I'm smarter than everyone else pick.
RE: RE: He wasn't a good coach  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 8/16/2019 4:47 pm : link
In comment 14532393 Coach Red Beaulieu said:
Quote:
In comment 14532359 Metnut said:


Quote:


but Jerry Reese didn't do him any favors other than drafting Beckham.


In hindsight Donald and Martin would have been better.

Heck that's not even hindsight, bbi had their colle tive eyes on those two, obj was a bit off radar. Another I'm smarter than everyone else pick.


So what was your previous handle again?
McAdoo might not have said  
Gman11 : 8/16/2019 4:51 pm : link
that Geno gave them a better chance to win, but I do remember him saying that Geno "can make all the throws."
RE: RE: McAdoo  
lax counsel : 8/16/2019 4:53 pm : link
In comment 14532373 McNally's_Nuts said:
Quote:
In comment 14532370 lax counsel said:


Quote:


Was a terrible coach, but I do believe he knew Webb was not going to be an NFL qb. He never got a shot in practice and it was likely due to the fact that he could not play the position at a high level.

As I said in threads a couple of years ago, if McAdoo and/or Reese truly believed Webb was the goods, why would they not have put him in position a lot earlier when the season was lost? There is no better story to tell your boss than you are developing/drafted the next franchise qb so you should get at least another year.




How does that make any sense? So they just burned a 3rd round pick for no reason? Didn’t think they could develop him?


Is it not possible they both realized the pick was a mistake and didn't want to further embarrass themselves? Is this the first time a Reese mid round pick was a complete waste?

DJ is getting reps right now with legit NFL players, why could Webb barely scrape the practice squad with the Giants?
Mc  
Lines of Scrimmage : 8/16/2019 4:55 pm : link
He must have been involved in the drafting of Webb I would think.
RE: McAdoo might not have said  
Jimmy Googs : 8/16/2019 4:59 pm : link
In comment 14532401 Gman11 said:
Quote:
that Geno gave them a better chance to win, but I do remember him saying that Geno "can make all the throws."


I don’t recall that game being much different than any other Giant game that season
...  
Karl Hungus : 8/16/2019 4:59 pm : link
RE: McAdoo might not have said  
ron mexico : 8/16/2019 5:00 pm : link
In comment 14532401 Gman11 said:
Quote:
that Geno gave them a better chance to win, but I do remember him saying that Geno "can make all the throws."


this is the only quote I can find that discusses Geno's skill set. Either way, saying someone can make all the throws is hardly a ringing endorsement.

Q: How much do you think a mobile quarterback can be different to work with or can be helpful to you at this point?
A: As far as Geno, Geno has a skillset that is a little bit different than Eli. He is a pocket passer and he can do some creating on the move. I think that’s something Eli has gotten better at over the years, but Geno can create on the move. He’s going to have to pick his spots. They’re a very, very talented rush this week. But, I’m excited to watch him play.
I think he knew he was getting fired  
Sneakers O'toole : 8/16/2019 5:04 pm : link
And playing Geno was a last ditch effort to save his job. Win a game or two with Geno, and you can scapegoat Eli for the woes of your broken offense.

It didn't woek obviously, last ditch efforts made in desperation often don't, but that's what I've always felt about this.
RE: I think he knew he was getting fired  
ron mexico : 8/16/2019 5:13 pm : link
In comment 14532411 Sneakers O'toole said:
Quote:
And playing Geno was a last ditch effort to save his job. Win a game or two with Geno, and you can scapegoat Eli for the woes of your broken offense.

It didn't woek obviously, last ditch efforts made in desperation often don't, but that's what I've always felt about this.


If that is the case, why not make the move before you are eliminated?
This was the final culmination of a massive cluster f^ck  
Red Dog : 8/16/2019 5:13 pm : link
that started when Reese was elevated to General Manager. Not that he was a bad pick, because he had excellent credentials. But he should have been removed before this Webb/Geno/McAdoodoo mess happened.

This stinking disaster just rolled along for a decade, gathering strength as it went while ownership ignored the growing signs of management incompetence.

Webb was a mistake, one of a long, long, long line of draft mistakes by Reese & Ross. But he comes out of this with the least egg on his face. And hopefully he will get on with his career which seems to be destined to make him a coach someday.

Geno ("Mr. Big Play For The Opponent") was a disaster from the word go. I have a nice collection of low-mileage bridges to show to anybody who thinks he is a starting QB in this league.

McAdoo was totally incompetent. Actually worse than Ray Handley. There, I've said it.

As somebody who suffered through the seemingly endless string of Championship losses in the late 50s and early 60s followed by the fifteen years of lousy football, I am very relieved that this largely lost decade of incompetence is behind us. And I am very sorry that Eli Manning, who is probably the best QB the team has ever had, was forced to waste the best years of his career during this awful time.
RE: I think he knew he was getting fired  
mattlawson : 8/16/2019 5:22 pm : link
In comment 14532411 Sneakers O'toole said:
Quote:
And playing Geno was a last ditch effort to save his job. Win a game or two with Geno, and you can scapegoat Eli for the woes of your broken offense.

It didn't woek obviously, last ditch efforts made in desperation often don't, but that's what I've always felt about this.



It was a totally desperate move, and Jerry Reese was involved in this as well don’t ever forget that
RE: RE: RE: McAdoo  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 8/16/2019 5:36 pm : link
In comment 14532402 lax counsel said:
Quote:
In comment 14532373 McNally's_Nuts said:


Quote:


In comment 14532370 lax counsel said:


Quote:


Was a terrible coach, but I do believe he knew Webb was not going to be an NFL qb. He never got a shot in practice and it was likely due to the fact that he could not play the position at a high level.

As I said in threads a couple of years ago, if McAdoo and/or Reese truly believed Webb was the goods, why would they not have put him in position a lot earlier when the season was lost? There is no better story to tell your boss than you are developing/drafted the next franchise qb so you should get at least another year.




How does that make any sense? So they just burned a 3rd round pick for no reason? Didn’t think they could develop him?



Is it not possible they both realized the pick was a mistake and didn't want to further embarrass themselves? Is this the first time a Reese mid round pick was a complete waste?

DJ is getting reps right now with legit NFL players, why could Webb barely scrape the practice squad with the Giants?

It's inconceivable how SF can drag the carcass of Nick Mullens off the street and do ok and we can't scout and draft a remotely functional QB. Inconceivable.

Mcadoo, Smith and Webb were the Unholy Trinity eldritch horror of Suck.
What red dog said  
Bluesbreaker : 8/16/2019 5:40 pm : link
Flush twice to make sure another all time low
point in Giant history the Eli benching still
boils my blood ..
In hindsight though, what were the real repercussions of that cluster?  
Jimmy Googs : 8/16/2019 5:40 pm : link
Both Reese and McAdoo were going to get fired no matter what.
The Giants weren’t going to alter their season.
Tough to imagine ownership would turn on Eli.

It seems like it only really exposed what bad management decisions or lack thereof were coming out of ownership...
...  
christian : 8/16/2019 5:48 pm : link
Thankfully the Giants and Manning rebounded after the benching and haven't turned in a 6-16 record since then.
I Was Initially Pissed When They Sat Eli...  
Jim in Tampa : 8/16/2019 5:52 pm : link
But I quickly got over it. I cared a lot more about individual records when I was a kid. Now that I'm older I'm more focused on the team's record versus how many consecutive games Eli started, number of yards gained by Barkley, etc.

Eli an ironman who has been available to play every game for 14.5 years. That's all that counts.

As far as McAdoo, I don't fault him for starting Geno. Mac knew he was in trouble and he needed to prove that Eli was part of the problem in order to have any chance to stay on as HC.

I do think Mara scaped-goated McAdoo for the Eli benching when it was clearly a group decision by HC, GM and owner. But I think the reason Mac got fired was because he lost the locker room.

The 11-5 record the year before covered up McAdoo's leadership deficencies. But the next year when the going got tough he was exposed.
Not in the least.  
Section331 : 8/16/2019 5:53 pm : link
As others have noted, there was no reason to play Geno, and, IIRC, McAdoo was on board with drafting Webb.

I’m a little puzzled by the attempts here to rehab McAdoo’s image. He sucked, deal with it.
If he was never going to be a starter in this league  
NoPeanutz : 8/16/2019 5:56 pm : link
Let alone on a bad team in a lost season, WHY THE F*CK DID THEY BURN A 3rd ROUND PICK ON HIM?
He was trying to save his joh  
joeinpa : 8/16/2019 5:58 pm : link
He didn’t believe in Eli. He understood Geno gave him better chance to win than Webb.

Coaches don’t think like fans. He knew Webb didn’t have it and had no interest in playing him

In his situation he made the correct decision once he decided to move on from Eli
Here's one of the worst things about the Geno move:  
81_Great_Dane : 8/16/2019 6:03 pm : link
Arguably, it "worked," but they didn't have the balls to stick with it.

IIRC, Geno did *slightly* better than Eli had been doing. Like, a sliver better. Which is about what you would expect from a guy who hadn't played, starting on the road. If they thought Geno had some upside and that he gave them a better chance to win going forward, fine — they should have stuck with him. If they thought that Geno was a known quantity, inferior to Manning, but they needed to shake up the offense, that's stupid but at least it's a reason.

But starting Geno and ending the streak, then going back to Eli, was flat-out gutless. If they couldn't handle the bad PR, they shouldn't have ended the streak. If they didn't think Geno was an upgrade over Eli they shouldn't have made the switch. If Geno had to be WAY better than Eli to keep playing, then why bother making the change? It's not fair to Geno and it embarrassed everybody.

The whole thing stank. Idiots. Mara, McAdoo, Reese, all of 'em. Hopefully Mara learned his lesson.
...  
christian : 8/16/2019 6:06 pm : link
Thankfully the current regime would never pick a second tier quarterback in the NFL draft as an investment and gamble.
McAdoo sucked  
HomerJones45 : 8/16/2019 6:06 pm : link
and will never be a head coach again. I question whether anyone would even hire him as anything but a gofor. The GM who hired him and the owners who went along with it were a triumverate of buffoons.

Trying to make some logic out of the machinations of this bunch of half-wits is an exercise in futility.
RE: If he was never going to be a starter in this league  
Klaatu : 8/16/2019 6:11 pm : link
In comment 14532474 NoPeanutz said:
Quote:
Let alone on a bad team in a lost season, WHY THE F*CK DID THEY BURN A 3rd ROUND PICK ON HIM?


Quote:
Vin: It's like a fellow I once knew in El Paso. One day, he just took all his clothes off and jumped in a mess of cactus. I asked him that same question, "Why?"

Calvera: And?

Vin: He said, "It seemed to be a good idea at the time."
Geno was his own worst enemy in the Oakland game  
GeofromNJ : 8/16/2019 6:33 pm : link
that he started (which ended Eli's streak). Geno twice lost the ball - once on an unforced fumble and once having it knocked out of his hands. If either event doesn't occur, the Giants win the game, Geno starts the following week, and we're on the Geno Smith leg of Giants football. I don't think Eli would have won that Oakland game had he started, but lucky for Eli, the Giants lost.
RE: I Was Initially Pissed When They Sat Eli...  
joeinpa : 8/16/2019 6:47 pm : link
In comment 14532470 Jim in Tampa said:
Quote:
But I quickly got over it. I cared a lot more about individual records when I was a kid. Now that I'm older I'm more focused on the team's record versus how many consecutive games Eli started, number of yards gained by Barkley, etc.

Eli an ironman who has been available to play every game for 14.5 years. That's all that counts.

As far as McAdoo, I don't fault him for starting Geno. Mac knew he was in trouble and he needed to prove that Eli was part of the problem in order to have any chance to stay on as HC.

I do think Mara scaped-goated McAdoo for the Eli benching when it was clearly a group decision by HC, GM and owner. But I think the reason Mac got fired was because he lost the locker room.

The 11-5 record the year before covered up McAdoo's leadership deficencies. But the next year when the going got tough he was exposed.


Never understood the passion for Eli s streak. How meaningful was it when 5 of the previous 6 seasons were losing efforts for the team
As soon..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/16/2019 6:48 pm : link
as it was apparent that 2017 was a lost season, there was no reason to have Geno on the roster. And the fact that Webb wasn't getting reps to at least try and develop him is on the coaching staff.

When they were at 1 or 2 wins, you cut Geno and have Webb get all the practice reps. Hell, he was supposedly a study rat and picks things up quickly.
It was a mind boggling decision  
justafan : 8/16/2019 6:53 pm : link
that reeked of a man trying to save his job. Had Geno won, McAdoo could've made Eli the fall guy. A desperate move, from a desperate man who didn't know what he was doing on offense. Remember under Coughlin in 2015 this team was 6th in points for (26.3 points per game) and dropped do 26th in points for (17.8 points per game). Dude was lost on offense. He brought an offense to Coughlin and Coughlin made it work, once Coughlin was gone McDoofus couldn't make up the extra 9 points per game. He got lucky getting is into the playoffs with a defense that overachieved under Spags.
McAdoo didn't know how to support his players  
Peter from NH (formerly CT) : 8/16/2019 6:53 pm : link
particularly Eli. Until you are ready to make the switch, you have to support the people that play for you. He didn't. Eli would never throw players or coaches under the bus. While McAdoo was fairly subtle about it, he did.

The decision that Geno Smith was a better option than Eli was absurd. Mara thought that he was going to give Webb a chance in some games. The switch to a never was in Geno was just pointless. It got him fired.
Team needed to be burned to the ground  
Dankbeerman : 8/16/2019 7:00 pm : link
Reese stacked the the wood dump gas on it handed the pack of matches to Macadodo and he lit it up.

RE: As soon..  
christian : 8/16/2019 7:18 pm : link
In comment 14532512 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
as it was apparent that 2017 was a lost season, there was no reason to have Geno on the roster. And the fact that Webb wasn't getting reps to at least try and develop him is on the coaching staff.

When they were at 1 or 2 wins, you cut Geno and have Webb get all the practice reps. Hell, he was supposedly a study rat and picks things up quickly.


I imagine this didn't happen because Webb was not capable in the least of operating an NFL offense.

The events of the last 2 offseasons are good indicate as much.

Some guys don't need a trial by fire to show who they are, a trial by smoke signals seemed to be enough with Webb.
I have been wrong on many things :)  
dep026 : 8/16/2019 7:22 pm : link
But even a monkeys ass could have seen how bad Webb was in college. How he was drafted in third round will go down as one of the biggest head scratchers in my time following college football and the draft.
RE: As soon..  
ron mexico : 8/16/2019 7:25 pm : link
In comment 14532512 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
as it was apparent that 2017 was a lost season, there was no reason to have Geno on the roster. And the fact that Webb wasn't getting reps to at least try and develop him is on the coaching staff.

When they were at 1 or 2 wins, you cut Geno and have Webb get all the practice reps. Hell, he was supposedly a study rat and picks things up quickly.


I agree 100%. I hope the current regime doesn't make the same mistake. But Eli doesn't seem like a guy who likes to miss reps.
RE: RE: As soon..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/16/2019 7:34 pm : link
In comment 14532552 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 14532512 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


as it was apparent that 2017 was a lost season, there was no reason to have Geno on the roster. And the fact that Webb wasn't getting reps to at least try and develop him is on the coaching staff.

When they were at 1 or 2 wins, you cut Geno and have Webb get all the practice reps. Hell, he was supposedly a study rat and picks things up quickly.



I imagine this didn't happen because Webb was not capable in the least of operating an NFL offense.

The events of the last 2 offseasons are good indicate as much.

Some guys don't need a trial by fire to show who they are, a trial by smoke signals seemed to be enough with Webb.


I agree that Webb probably looked terrible, but it wasn't like the season was going anywhere. Even if Geno won a game, what would it have accomplished? He'd have been gone the next season too.

My feeling is Mac wasn't a good HC because he lacked the foresight needed and was terrible at managing the players and the locker room.

There was no reason short term or long term to start Geno or even have him on the roster once the season was lost
RE: This was the final culmination of a massive cluster f^ck  
Reb8thVA : 8/16/2019 7:37 pm : link
In comment 14532417 Red Dog said:
Quote:
that started when Reese was elevated to General Manager. Not that he was a bad pick, because he had excellent credentials. But he should have been removed before this Webb/Geno/McAdoodoo mess happened.

This stinking disaster just rolled along for a decade, gathering strength as it went while ownership ignored the growing signs of management incompetence.

Webb was a mistake, one of a long, long, long line of draft mistakes by Reese & Ross. But he comes out of this with the least egg on his face. And hopefully he will get on with his career which seems to be destined to make him a coach someday.

Geno ("Mr. Big Play For The Opponent") was a disaster from the word go. I have a nice collection of low-mileage bridges to show to anybody who thinks he is a starting QB in this league.

McAdoo was totally incompetent. Actually worse than Ray Handley. There, I've said it.

As somebody who suffered through the seemingly endless string of Championship losses in the late 50s and early 60s followed by the fifteen years of lousy football, I am very relieved that this largely lost decade of incompetence is behind us. And I am very sorry that Eli Manning, who is probably the best QB the team has ever had, was forced to waste the best years of his career during this awful time.


Preach on brother! You know it!
.  
Amazinz : 8/16/2019 7:58 pm : link
Yes. I still hold it against him.
Geno sucks!!  
ZogZerg : 8/16/2019 7:59 pm : link
It was stupid to sign him and start him.
RE: McAdoo didn't know how to support his players  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 8/16/2019 10:18 pm : link
In comment 14532518 Peter from NH (formerly CT) said:
Quote:
particularly Eli. Until you are ready to make the switch, you have to support the people that play for you. He didn't. Eli would never throw players or coaches under the bus. While McAdoo was fairly subtle about it, he did.

The decision that Geno Smith was a better option than Eli was absurd. Mara thought that he was going to give Webb a chance in some games. The switch to a never was in Geno was just pointless. It got him fired.

Reese and Macadoo were absolutely POS, throwing our totally classy team first qb under the bus. Obj probably learned a thing or two from them. Subbing Smith for Eli and breaking his Ironman streak has to be the greatest ass clown decision in sports. Of all time.
All you need to know about Geno was written by Nolan Nawrocki  
fanofthejets : 8/19/2019 12:28 pm : link
And he was panned for that assessment but it proved right. Every last word.

Sure he's an NFL backup but he's just too nonchalant, too apathetic, poor work ethic, no leadership skills. No natural football instincts either. I mean who runs backwards 20 yards and then takes the sack passing up opportunities to throw the ball away and remain in FG range on 3rd down?

You don't want someone like that on your roster in any role
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