I like the changes in the locker room...

and decision-makers. Still in a �squatless� preseason, this is the sharpest or crispiest we have compared to other �squatless� preseasons, imv.

PS and staff appear to have them quite organized. We shall see how that translates into the regular season.

we have looked

I wouldn't say that it is just starting. Even going back to last year, that team could have folded it up at any point. They fought through it. The season was over so quick last year but then we started winning and keeping that hope alive out of nowhere. It gave us more meaningful games even when we thought there was no chance.

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We heard about changing the culture on this team and I think it is starting to happen.

deserve credit for getting guys ready to play. No fire drills on either side of the ball. How many pre-season games have we seen where second, third O-lines were a joke. Guys like Gates, Salako, Brown, etc. look like they know what the hell they are supposed to do. Similar on defense. Communication seems pretty good. Depth seems much improved, as many others have noted.

For a long time. Bizarre to see Eli tearing it up in a preseason game.

In comment 14534157 clatterbuck said:

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How many pre-season games have we seen where second, third O-lines were a joke. Guys like Gates, Salako, Brown, etc. look like they know what the hell they are supposed to do.

Depth is another overlooked part of building a team. Some of the signings go unnoticed but when you have a huge liability at any position when your starter goes down, it can disrupt everything.

They have no business playing in the Super Bowl.

Genuinely interested to understand what the evidence of this changed locker room is.

It didn't seem like the locker room was a problem last year.

If we go 5-11 again I�m sure the locker room culture will suck.

In comment 14534072 Big Blue '56 said:

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and decision-makers. Still in a �squatless� preseason, this is the sharpest or crispiest we have compared to other �squatless� preseasons, imv. PS and staff appear to have them quite organized. We shall see how that translates into the regular season.

On offense. Defense still looks raw from that standpoint. Very Raw. It just isn't apparent to the average fan from a "crispness" standpoint.

.

In comment 14534264 christian said:

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Genuinely interested to understand what the evidence of this changed locker room is. It didn't seem like the locker room was a problem last year.

Gettleman got rid of all of the losers � Beckham, Vernon, Snacks, Apple, Collins, etc.

These guys were talented but they weren�t winners. Anyone who has played team sports understands the dynamic.

.

I guess Archie Manning and a dozen other all time greats who didn't win are losers too.

We've got to be able to do better at thinking about football than this.

In comment 14534079 robbieballs2003 said:

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I wouldn't say that it is just starting. Even going back to last year, that team could have folded it up at any point. They fought through it. The season was over so quick last year but then we started winning and keeping that hope alive out of nowhere. It gave us more meaningful games even when we thought there was no chance. Quote: We heard about changing the culture on this team and I think it is starting to happen.

Good words Robbie. I will be honest with you, I didn�t want us to win those last 4 games because I was not wanting to pick out of the top 10 in the draft. But now I see things differently....winning the last 4 of 8 and almost winning 2 more actually was a building process that is now carried over to this year and hopefully beyond.

In comment 14534370 WillVAB said:

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In comment 14534264 christian said: Quote: Genuinely interested to understand what the evidence of this changed locker room is. It didn't seem like the locker room was a problem last year. Gettleman got rid of all of the losers � Beckham, Vernon, Snacks, Apple, Collins, etc. These guys were talented but they weren�t winners. Anyone who has played team sports understands the dynamic.

I remember nearly identical sentiment regarding the 2003 Giants, and how guys like Strahan, Toomer, Shockey, Barber, etc. were losers and would never win anything.

And then a bunch of the guys who weren't winners were, and a bunch of those guys were eventually champions.

And just to make matters more awesome the Giants added Burress, Bradshaw, Boley, and Rolle and those loser assholes also became champions.

Was Burress a winner we he told his head coach to f-ck off on the sideline, and when he refused to practice? Was Strahan a winner when we threatened to retire so he could skip training camp? How about when Boley beat up his wife. Or when Amani Toomer pissed in his wife's closet. Or when Bradshaw got arrested for stealing a PlayStation in college. Or when Rolle nearly got kicked out of college for going at a cop?

But more importantly, what was actually, demonstrably wrong with the locker room last year?

.

In comment 14534370 WillVAB said:

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In comment 14534264 christian said: Quote: Genuinely interested to understand what the evidence of this changed locker room is. It didn't seem like the locker room was a problem last year. Gettleman got rid of all of the losers � Beckham, Vernon, Snacks, Apple, Collins, etc. These guys were talented but they weren�t winners. Anyone who has played team sports understands the dynamic.

Exactly

In comment 14534386 christian said:

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In comment 14534370 WillVAB said: Quote: In comment 14534264 christian said: Quote: Genuinely interested to understand what the evidence of this changed locker room is. It didn't seem like the locker room was a problem last year. Gettleman got rid of all of the losers � Beckham, Vernon, Snacks, Apple, Collins, etc. These guys were talented but they weren�t winners. Anyone who has played team sports understands the dynamic. I remember nearly identical sentiment regarding the 2003 Giants, and how guys like Strahan, Toomer, Shockey, Barber, etc. were losers and would never win anything. And then a bunch of the guys who weren't winners were, and a bunch of those guys were eventually champions. And just to make matters more awesome the Giants added Burress, Bradshaw, Boley, and Rolle and those loser assholes also became champions. Was Burress a winner we he told his head coach to f-ck off on the sideline, and when he refused to practice? Was Strahan a winner when we threatened to retire so he could skip training camp? How about when Boley beat up his wife. Or when Amani Toomer pissed in his wife's closet. Or when Bradshaw got arrested for stealing a PlayStation in college. Or when Rolle nearly got kicked out of college for going at a cop? But more importantly, what was actually, demonstrably wrong with the locker room last year?

Team dynamic and character issues off the field are two different things

What the locker room really was like, positive or negative.

But it does seem like players and management have often noted an improved �culture� or tenor of the team this year.

In comment 14534402 joeinpa said:

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Team dynamic and character issues off the field are two different things

OK assuming that, what were the bad dynamics on the team last year? What is the evidence of that?

I thought the team played hard for Shurmur, didn't quit, etc. The guys who didn't return just were not part of that?

In comment 14534409 christian said:

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In comment 14534402 joeinpa said: Quote: Team dynamic and character issues off the field are two different things OK assuming that, what were the bad dynamics on the team last year? What is the evidence of that? I thought the team played hard for Shurmur, didn't quit, etc. The guys who didn't return just were not part of that?

Exactly. You just don�t know what you�re talking about.

The group Gettleman got rid of had one playoff season on their resume. They were the core when the team essentially mutinied on McAdoo. The same core who started 1-7 last year. No surprise the team started playing better and winning once those guys were either jettisoned or injured.

It�s not all about talent. There�s a chemistry and attitude element to success and they don�t have it.

Look how young the team is. Look how many players are left from the last regime. It remains to be seen what this group is capable of � they�re probably not quite there yet from a talent perspective. But what I do know is all of the expensive jackasses with a lengthy resume of losing are gone.

Is definitely different and some of the best reporters commented on this during the OTA's. Listen to some of the interviews and players are talking about their teammates in a positive way. I see Barkley pumping his teammates up on the sideline. A lot of players show genuine happiness when another player makes a play.

I think this was all starting to build last year. perhaps because the leadership was so bad in 2017 and the team was a complete mess from every point, but I like what I'm seeing so far.

In comment 14534430 WillVAB said:

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In comment 14534409 christian said: Quote: In comment 14534402 joeinpa said: Quote: Team dynamic and character issues off the field are two different things OK assuming that, what were the bad dynamics on the team last year? What is the evidence of that? I thought the team played hard for Shurmur, didn't quit, etc. The guys who didn't return just were not part of that? Exactly. You just don�t know what you�re talking about. The group Gettleman got rid of had one playoff season on their resume. They were the core when the team essentially mutinied on McAdoo. The same core who started 1-7 last year. No surprise the team started playing better and winning once those guys were either jettisoned or injured. It�s not all about talent. There�s a chemistry and attitude element to success and they don�t have it.

I don�t know what was wrong in the locker room. I was more agreeing with the statement anyone who has played team sports understands team dynamics

Lol OK. So because the team is young the locker room is "fixed."

Here's hoping many of the young guys develop the same issues the group of jerks and malcontents under Coughlin did, and actually win something.

And even more importantly Shurmur has the agency to coach a team with some jerks, and doesn't need to get rid of anyone who's not well behaved, because that's a heck of a way to assemble a football team.

That was directed towards Christian.

In comment 14534449 christian said:

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Lol OK. So because the team is young the locker room is "fixed." Here's hoping many of the young guys develop the same issues the group of jerks and malcontents under Coughlin did, and actually win something. And even more importantly Shurmur has the agency to coach a team with some jerks, and doesn't need to get rid of anyone who's not well behaved, because that's a heck of a way to assemble a football team.

What do you keep babbling on about? The core of this team wasn�t getting it done, period. Gettleman gave them a clean slate last year and they responded with a fuck you 1-7 start. So he cleaned house.

You keep bringing up the Coughlin Giants so let�s explore that. They had the same issues, albeit they were a more talented roster. That team didn�t turn the corner until some of the Fassel holdovers were out of the picture and the rest were able to find common ground with Coughlin. The Giants winning a SB after Tiki retires and Shockey goes down mid season is a perfect example of what I�m talking about.

A lot about culture and he�s clearly placed a premium on cutting out the outspoken players. Will it translate to success is the big question

In comment 14534519 WillVAB said:

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In comment 14534449 christian said: Quote: Lol OK. So because the team is young the locker room is "fixed." Here's hoping many of the young guys develop the same issues the group of jerks and malcontents under Coughlin did, and actually win something. And even more importantly Shurmur has the agency to coach a team with some jerks, and doesn't need to get rid of anyone who's not well behaved, because that's a heck of a way to assemble a football team. What do you keep babbling on about? The core of this team wasn�t getting it done, period. Gettleman gave them a clean slate last year and they responded with a fuck you 1-7 start. So he cleaned house. You keep bringing up the Coughlin Giants so let�s explore that. They had the same issues, albeit they were a more talented roster. That team didn�t turn the corner until some of the Fassel holdovers were out of the picture and the rest were able to find common ground with Coughlin. The Giants winning a SB after Tiki retires and Shockey goes down mid season is a perfect example of what I�m talking about.

And yet a number of the Fassel hold overs were key cogs in the championship in 2007. The point is you can't cut your way to a good team.

The key is competent coaching, confident management, and ownership that stays out of football decisions.

Strong leadership can handle all kinds of characters, assholes, former losers, and idiots. You must be able to coach and lead all kinds.

Plenty of good teams have had dysfunctional locker rooms, players who hate each other, players who hate the coaches and vice versa, who get at each other, who do stupid shit. It doesn't need to be the magical fairy dust of a "good locker room" to win.

In comment 14534565 christian said:

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In comment 14534519 WillVAB said: Quote: In comment 14534449 christian said: Quote: Lol OK. So because the team is young the locker room is "fixed." Here's hoping many of the young guys develop the same issues the group of jerks and malcontents under Coughlin did, and actually win something. And even more importantly Shurmur has the agency to coach a team with some jerks, and doesn't need to get rid of anyone who's not well behaved, because that's a heck of a way to assemble a football team. What do you keep babbling on about? The core of this team wasn�t getting it done, period. Gettleman gave them a clean slate last year and they responded with a fuck you 1-7 start. So he cleaned house. You keep bringing up the Coughlin Giants so let�s explore that. They had the same issues, albeit they were a more talented roster. That team didn�t turn the corner until some of the Fassel holdovers were out of the picture and the rest were able to find common ground with Coughlin. The Giants winning a SB after Tiki retires and Shockey goes down mid season is a perfect example of what I�m talking about. And yet a number of the Fassel hold overs were key cogs in the championship in 2007. The point is you can't cut your way to a good team. The key is competent coaching, confident management, and ownership that stays out of football decisions. Strong leadership can handle all kinds of characters, assholes, former losers, and idiots. You must be able to coach and lead all kinds. Plenty of good teams have had dysfunctional locker rooms, players who hate each other, players who hate the coaches and vice versa, who get at each other, who do stupid shit. It doesn't need to be the magical fairy dust of a "good locker room" to win.

It�s not �magical fairy dust.� Just because PFF or some other donk stat site can�t quantify it doesn�t mean it�s not real.

Let�s look at the Shockey example. The 07 team was treading water and Shockey was pretty vocal about Eli and the HC. He goes down with an injury, Eli doesn�t have to force feed targets to him, the Giants get on a roll and the rest is history. In the off-season Shockey is shipped to New Orleans for a draft pick.

Team chemistry is real and it matters. It has nothing to do with the rap sheet or history of any individual player. It�s about how the collection of players come together to work towards a common goal.

what the hell the locker is like now, or what it was like last year. You like that they've won 2 preseason games and that they got rid of some guys you didn't like. But cut the bullshit about improvements in the locker room, you're talking out of your ass there.

In comment 14534580 Tesla said:

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what the hell the locker is like now, or what it was like last year. You like that they've won 2 preseason games and that they got rid of some guys you didn't like. But cut the bullshit about improvements in the locker room, you're talking out of your ass there.

+1. They may or may not have improved the locker room, but there's absolutely no way of telling at this point.

It was the Giants decision to trade shockey . Shockey forced the issue.

Oh, and the saints managed to win a SB with him in their locker room.

In comment 14534597 ron mexico said:

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It was the Giants decision to trade shockey . Shockey forced the issue. Oh, and the saints managed to win a SB with him in their locker room.

Yes because Brees made it clear who was the leader in that locker room. He wouldn�t tolerate Shockley s shenanigans

The patriots have won multiple Super Bowls because they were the better coached and more cohesive units. But so is talent: the cowboys won three Super Bowls in the 90s with head cases and prima donnas up and down the roster. The Seahawks won one and were inches away from another with head cases like Lynch Browner Bennett and Harvin

Who are you to tell anyone what to think or say? Who pinned the badge on your chest?

about what's going on in the "locker room". All people know is that this was a bad football team and now they're 2-0 in the preseason. It's silly.

In comment 14534624 Giant John said:

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Who are you to tell anyone what to think or say? Who pinned the badge on your chest?

Think he s just making the pt that we as fans create many narratives and then create opinion as fact to support that narrative

He just didn�t express it very nicely. By the way I think he s correct in his assessment, me included.

DG got rid of players who either A. Severely under performed B. we�re severely over paid C. We�re causing too many issues or D any combo of these issues.

I don�t have any �proof� the locker room is better but it sure as hell looks like it is. Just think about what reporters are reporting back on and what sound bytes are coming out. Complete 180 from last year. No Beckham crap, no Apple crap, no Collins mouth running, no Flowers garbage. The focus seems to be Jones� progress in camp, guys like Shepard stepping up to lead the locker room, Ballentine looking like a pro, etc.

Far less negativity surrounds this team right now. If that isn�t in part due to an improved culture/locker room then I don�t know what to tell you.

He can do that without telling others what they can and can�t say.

Jonathan Stewart and he transformed it for us...

In comment 14534631 UConn4523 said:

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DG got rid of players who either A. Severely under performed B. we�re severely over paid C. We�re causing too many issues or D any combo of these issues. I don�t have any �proof� the locker room is better but it sure as hell looks like it is. Just think about what reporters are reporting back on and what sound bytes are coming out. Complete 180 from last year. No Beckham crap, no Apple crap, no Collins mouth running, no Flowers garbage. The focus seems to be Jones� progress in camp, guys like Shepard stepping up to lead the locker room, Ballentine looking like a pro, etc. Far less negativity surrounds this team right now. If that isn�t in part due to an improved culture/locker room then I don�t know what to tell you.

What negative things were being reported last preseason ?

Pretty easy to have character until the live bullets start flying

in the exact post you responded to.

The only metric to base these changes are is winning. The Giants bought one winning season with 3 high priced free agents in the last 8 years.

Whatever changes are needed , happened or didn't happen, I will measure them in wins.

Pre-season, doesn't count. But actually it does. Winning is contagious just as losing is. Win often, get leads and play smart, hard team oriented physical football.

I really hope, and I think there's a punching chance this team can play .500 or better ball.

That is what success looks like. Build on last year. Win.

2017 was the year the locker room was a mess. It was the year McAdoo lost the team and a lot of the players seemingly quit.

Those guys were jettisoned one-by-one. A few played last year and cohesion was better than in 2017, but you still had Beckham and IV-Gate and Flowers smirking on the sidelines while guzzling down sunflower seeds. Last year was a year to put in place a new system and get the locker room in order and while it is early, 2019 looks like the year where it is now stabilized.

If you need evidence on what issues there were in the locker room in 2018, then you should just go back to 2017 and see what a shitshow it was and how many of those "leaders" were still here.

In comment 14534638 ron mexico said:

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In comment 14534631 UConn4523 said: Quote: DG got rid of players who either A. Severely under performed B. we�re severely over paid C. We�re causing too many issues or D any combo of these issues. I don�t have any �proof� the locker room is better but it sure as hell looks like it is. Just think about what reporters are reporting back on and what sound bytes are coming out. Complete 180 from last year. No Beckham crap, no Apple crap, no Collins mouth running, no Flowers garbage. The focus seems to be Jones� progress in camp, guys like Shepard stepping up to lead the locker room, Ballentine looking like a pro, etc. Far less negativity surrounds this team right now. If that isn�t in part due to an improved culture/locker room then I don�t know what to tell you. What negative things were being reported last preseason ? Pretty easy to have character until the live bullets start flying

None of that stuff was in the preseason.

Everything was roses till we started playing games that counted.

but it�s all good. Not a debate worth having. You either think culture matters or you don�t, and I don�t care enough about it to convince you or anyone else of my take on it.

IMO the team attitude and culture is pointing up. Winning will heal all but I feel a lot better about who�s leading this locker room heading into 2019 than I have in years.

the QB is so so, coaching and play calling not good, likes LA over New York
Then miffs on the onside kick and benches himself with an injury
Apple is a quitter as well as a cry baby
Snacks declared �I�m not a leader!�
Collins went to the papers about teammates in the locker room
Flowers and Jerry no explanation needed - wouldn�t workout with line
Vernon I have nothing bad to say - probably wanted to unload his huge contract

How can some here not see that most of these guys were not team players
They were me me me me

it�s clear as day. Absolutely zero of that shit that I�m aware of this offseason. Makes sense too, it�s now Barkley�s team along with 2 QBs who have nearly identical personalities. Add in guys like Shepard and it�s hard not to fall in line.

In comment 14534721 Daniel in Kentucky said:

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the QB is so so, coaching and play calling not good, likes LA over New York Then miffs on the onside kick and benches himself with an injury Apple is a quitter as well as a cry baby Snacks declared �I�m not a leader!� Collins went to the papers about teammates in the locker room Flowers and Jerry no explanation needed - wouldn�t workout with line Vernon I have nothing bad to say - probably wanted to unload his huge contract How can some here not see that most of these guys were not team players They were me me me me

Vernon disrespected the American flag.

Don't forget jpp, he's a hot mess.

In comment 14534608 Les in TO said:

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The patriots have won multiple Super Bowls because they were the better coached and more cohesive units. But so is talent: the cowboys won three Super Bowls in the 90s with head cases and prima donnas up and down the roster. The Seahawks won one and were inches away from another with head cases like Lynch Browner Bennett and Harvin

You can get a players coach and have a bunch of Miami U type players and Herschel Walker trade and win. But that is definitely not the Giants identity.

to 2019, in any capacity. Different leagues, a team like that wouldn�t survive these days. Maybe an outlier here or there but it�s definitely not how anyone wants to construct their franchise.

In comment 14534726 UConn4523 said:

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it�s clear as day. Absolutely zero of that shit that I�m aware of this offseason. Makes sense too, it�s now Barkley�s team along with 2 QBs who have nearly identical personalities. Add in guys like Shepard and it�s hard not to fall in line.

None of that shit occurred in the off season either. That's the whole point I'm trying to make. I hope you are right but until they get tested when it matters, it premature to claim any improvement. It reeks of the skins being off-season champs.

But we did have one guy get popped for PEDs, anotner reportedly stepped on a woman's neck and for the people complaining about Vernon kneeling, Barkley publicly supported Kaep.

This is really quite funny.

So this magical locker room issue actually happened in 2017?

Might it be the head coach was miles in over his head, the general manager was on thin ice and making desperate decisions, ownership was sticking its nose in football decisions -- and then am almost comical amount injuries hit the team.

Maybe those players had also come "together" for one common goal, but the structure and leadership of the franchise had fallen apart?

The history of the NFL is full of winners with fractured locker rooms, players who hated each other, players who disobeyed their coaches, and teams full of assholes.

It's not littered full of winners lead by injured teams, incompetent coaches, desperate general managers, and overbearing ownership.

If the Giants turn the corner (and do note they haven't yet), it will be the latter, not some mythical locker room genie.

on team chemistry. To me its a huge thing. Every NFL team has a lot of talent, and every NFL team takes its queue from the players who are the leaders. If they aren't dedicated, talk behind the coaches back, create friction, etc., its a huge problem.

An example is the Patriots. The Patriots have been successful bringing in troubled personalities because their player leadership is really strong. Even if a "troublemaker" comes in and wants to take crap, the team ignores them because they take their lead from others. Effectively they shut up because no one listens or they get ostracized.

To the team message of winning no matter what is a major thing to achieve with a group of individuals. Behavior off the field matters, but to me the main thing is everyone being on the same page to win no matter what, not win if I don't have to work on technique, fundamentals, knowing the pbook, if I get enough snaps, if I get the ball enough, if I get enough recognition. You can still have players who may have some issues off the field or certain attitude issues and still buy into the team message.

Now, too much off of the field issues certainly contradicts a team message and must be dealt with even severely if need be.

There are going to be issues within a team with many personalities and egos. That is where the coaches and team leaders come in to bridge whatever problems there are back into focusing on team, not to mention being able to buy into a win at all costs type of message requires players and coaches to be absolutely honest with themselves. That certainly is a trait you look for in a player, or a player that can learn to be honest with themselves when constructing a roster.

This is advanced chemistry folks. Coaches and players must see eye to eye. Some just aren't ready to do that.

I'm not saying you can build a winning program with a bunch of guys sabotaging the team.

But maybe the reason the Pats are so good is the all time best head coach, an extremely tenured staff, and an owner who mostly stays out of it. And in fact the only fodder to have come out of New England recently is when the owner allegedly got involved in personnel.

In comment 14534776 christian said:

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I'm not saying you can build a winning program with a bunch of guys sabotaging the team. But maybe the reason the Pats are so good is the all time best head coach, an extremely tenured staff, and an owner who mostly stays out of it. And in fact the only fodder to have come out of New England recently is when the owner allegedly got involved in personnel.

Christian,
Certainly those are valuable parts of constructing a team. They also carefully selective in my opinion of what players they bring in and how much of a leash they are given. It'll be interesting when both BB and TB are gone because they have serious clout and that makes it a lot easier when bringing in new recruits

I wonder where Josh Gordon getting popped for drugs for the millionth time right before the playoffs, then getting lobbied for and welcomed back by team fits into all of this.

Did it go over well in the locker room when he got suspended as the team was trying to get back to the Super Bowl?

In comment 14534749 christian said:

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This is really quite funny. So this magical locker room issue actually happened in 2017? Might it be the head coach was miles in over his head, the general manager was on thin ice and making desperate decisions, ownership was sticking its nose in football decisions -- and then am almost comical amount injuries hit the team. Maybe those players had also come "together" for one common goal, but the structure and leadership of the franchise had fallen apart? The history of the NFL is full of winners with fractured locker rooms, players who hated each other, players who disobeyed their coaches, and teams full of assholes. It's not littered full of winners lead by injured teams, incompetent coaches, desperate general managers, and overbearing ownership. If the Giants turn the corner (and do note they haven't yet), it will be the latter, not some mythical locker room genie.

Howe can you follow sports and not see the impact losing has had on chemistry and leadership?

It isn't a "magical" locker room issue - it was pretty damn tangible. You had all of this happening:
- OL guys calling out other OL guys for not doing certain offseason workouts
- 2 DB's suspended in the season for leaving the field voluntarily
- Another DB calling out a young DB in the papers
- The stud DT proclaiming to the Media that he isn't a leader
- A terrible OL proclaiming he's the best at his position
- And the HC who repeatedly threw his QB under the bus and eventually benched him to try and put blame there

These issues all existed. And while it most likely manifested from losing - that's when the character of a team is most evident.

To act as if the morale and locker room doesn't matter is seemingly being willfully ignorant

In comment 14534826 christian said:

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I wonder where Josh Gordon getting popped for drugs for the millionth time right before the playoffs, then getting lobbied for and welcomed back by team fits into all of this. Did it go over well in the locker room when he got suspended as the team was trying to get back to the Super Bowl?

Belichick probably feels he can work with certain individuals. I would say the Patriots have a strong locker room which can handle the situations a Josh Gordon or Albert Haynesworth present. And if it doesn't work you move on.

I would say there has been improvement in Gordon that BB sees. Didn't Gordon take himself away football last time because he could feel the urge of addiction gaining traction?

If so, that could be an encouraging sign.

But it's pretty tough to say for certain if the issues caused the losing or if the losing causes the issues.

In comment 14534833 ron mexico said:

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But it's pretty tough to say for certain if the issues caused the losing or if the losing causes the issues.

Well, typically at least in my view it's not usually one or the other. Now, one certainly could carry more weight.

In comment 14534833 ron mexico said:

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But it's pretty tough to say for certain if the issues caused the losing or if the losing causes the issues.

I don't think this even matters. The issues happened. Likely a combination of both reasons, but the bottom line is the locker room was not good.

What I don't understand is it is almost being postulated here that locker room issues didn't exist. I mean it is even being referred to as a "magical" issue.

What is the debate even about? Locker room issues existed. And thus far, those issues seem to be minimized. If that isn't clear, I don't know what to say

In comment 14534828 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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In comment 14534749 christian said: Quote: This is really quite funny. So this magical locker room issue actually happened in 2017? Might it be the head coach was miles in over his head, the general manager was on thin ice and making desperate decisions, ownership was sticking its nose in football decisions -- and then am almost comical amount injuries hit the team. Maybe those players had also come "together" for one common goal, but the structure and leadership of the franchise had fallen apart? The history of the NFL is full of winners with fractured locker rooms, players who hated each other, players who disobeyed their coaches, and teams full of assholes. It's not littered full of winners lead by injured teams, incompetent coaches, desperate general managers, and overbearing ownership. If the Giants turn the corner (and do note they haven't yet), it will be the latter, not some mythical locker room genie. Howe can you follow sports and not see the impact losing has had on chemistry and leadership? It isn't a "magical" locker room issue - it was pretty damn tangible. You had all of this happening: - OL guys calling out other OL guys for not doing certain offseason workouts - 2 DB's suspended in the season for leaving the field voluntarily - Another DB calling out a young DB in the papers - The stud DT proclaiming to the Media that he isn't a leader - A terrible OL proclaiming he's the best at his position - And the HC who repeatedly threw his QB under the bus and eventually benched him to try and put blame there These issues all existed. And while it most likely manifested from losing - that's when the character of a team is most evident. To act as if the morale and locker room doesn't matter is seemingly being willfully ignorant

My view is:

1) every team has low and high quality characters and you don't always get to choose which corresponds with your best players

2) coaching, management, and ownership are tasked with creating a stable and well managed program that can succeed with the diversity of characters your likely to employ

3) when leadership fails and a team begins to lose, employees act out and the media starts prodding

4) if leadership succeeds and the team wins, the frequency of issues decrease

I'll put it this way -- put this roster in the 2017 scenario -- and the same type of problems would show up.

In comment 14534828 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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In comment 14534749 christian said: Quote: This is really quite funny. So this magical locker room issue actually happened in 2017? Might it be the head coach was miles in over his head, the general manager was on thin ice and making desperate decisions, ownership was sticking its nose in football decisions -- and then am almost comical amount injuries hit the team. Maybe those players had also come "together" for one common goal, but the structure and leadership of the franchise had fallen apart? The history of the NFL is full of winners with fractured locker rooms, players who hated each other, players who disobeyed their coaches, and teams full of assholes. It's not littered full of winners lead by injured teams, incompetent coaches, desperate general managers, and overbearing ownership. If the Giants turn the corner (and do note they haven't yet), it will be the latter, not some mythical locker room genie. Howe can you follow sports and not see the impact losing has had on chemistry and leadership? It isn't a "magical" locker room issue - it was pretty damn tangible. You had all of this happening: - OL guys calling out other OL guys for not doing certain offseason workouts - 2 DB's suspended in the season for leaving the field voluntarily - Another DB calling out a young DB in the papers - The stud DT proclaiming to the Media that he isn't a leader - A terrible OL proclaiming he's the best at his position - And the HC who repeatedly threw his QB under the bus and eventually benched him to try and put blame there These issues all existed. And while it most likely manifested from losing - that's when the character of a team is most evident. To act as if the morale and locker room doesn't matter is seemingly being willfully ignorant

It very definitely manifested from losing. Think there wasn't a very human and understandable amount of resentment from the defensive roster, who played it's ass off in 2016 and was the reason that team won, against the piss poor offense that consistently put them in bad situations?

It's very hard to get players to buy in to playing football (i.e. risking health and career) when the season is shot, when the coach is in over his head and drowning publicly. But some of those example are pretty arguable. Apple should've been called out. It's just the way it happened was objectionable. And you can't force guys to be leaders. It's a natural thing. You either have it or don't. You don't just flip a switch a develop the personality type to know how to deal with people that way.

Damon Harrison is allowed to not be a leader. He's a veteran player who worked his way up from undrafted free agent to first-team all pro. He's an example you want for your locker room. He might not know how to wave pom poms. Fake leadership is worse than not being one.

And as regards bobby hart, every team has dumb guys on their roster. him saying he thinks he's really good is as significant as a pulled tooth.

Reflects how well and how much adversity you can handle. Most teams have adverse situations each year that require proper perspective and continued focus on the goal.

There isn't any reason for one unit to stick it's nose up at another unit. Each.unit should focus on what needs to be done to get better for the better of the team (being honest with oneself). Careful critiquing and support go a long way to help keep a team together in my view.

In comment 14534393 Zeke's Alibi said:

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Who now plays for a winning team in New Orleans.

DG knew the 2017 team needed to be blown up because it wasn�t any good. Many of The veterans were jettisoned for draft picks and clearing out the cap room to help facilitate the rebuild or reset of the roster. Snacks was and is a good player but we weren�t winning shit with him in 2018 so why not get the pick and clear out his space for 2020? Win win.

Every player jettisoned had his own story. Not every player release or trade was the same. If Beckham shut his mouth and didn�t give off serious vibes that he was going to inevitably demand a trade, which would lessen his value, the giants likely would have kept him. He also missed more time in 2018 and may have been giving off clues that he sort of checked out down the stretch 2018. Giants got out in front of it.

Giants weren�t winning with those veterans anymore. They traded a year of cap hits in 2018-2019 for draft picks and cap relief in 2020. The giants wanted to get younger and build a sustainable model. They also likely didn�t love some of the culture here. Maybe it was worse than we thought. Maybe it wasn�t. But these were football decisions. And if the giants show more progress in 2019, let�s say they go 8-8 and jones gets some meaningful burn along the way and the defensive kids progress even more, we�re going to be in wonderful shape going forward.

People are so worked up and attached to the narratives and the lip service and the drummer up noise. The proof is in the pudding. The roster has been reset. The giants now have a franchise player and team ambassador in Barkley. A young qb getting the best tutelage and teaching possible and a young, talented group of players that will grow as the team grows. And cap room for days. We�re good. Now just pray we blast the door down once during the next 4-5-6 years and win another chip.

And just for the sake of intellectual honesty: when did the locker room get better and what if any evidence is there that happened?

The "magical" component is this idea of coming together like the Three Musketeers in a moment unity, because a lot of players were cut or traded.

No one is arguing the Giants had a bunch of jerks on the team. The team was chalk full of jerks who said and did stupid things.

But let's be real, the Coughlin regime was also full of jerks who said and did stupid things.

What was the difference?

Bought into the team message in my opinion. I think that is necessary to win championships. Strong team leadership can take on a few personalities and help curb them in the right direction. Just my view obviously.

After the first 3 or 4 game losing streak.

We dumped most of the talent on this team, such as it was, of a 5-11 team. If they suddenly became malcontents and losers, Shurmur, who has zero history of head coaching success, owns a piece of it. Let�s see some success in the regular season.

Requires buy-in from the people being led. BB doesn�t just walk into the locker room every off-season and start cracking the whip. There�s always a core group of veterans on the roster who have already bought in and that permeates the rest of the roster. Those who don�t fit are let go.

The Giants didn�t turn the corner until Coughlin got buy-in from the vets. Go watch all the pieces about the 07 Giants.

The reality is the core of this team from 16/17/18 was rotten. It was comprised of FA�s from loser teams who didn�t know how to win. The homegrown talent either sucked or cared more about themselves than the team.

Go back and listen to some of the Gettleman comments at the beginning of the 18 season. He talked about giving everyone a clean slate and about how he wanted players who hated losing. Early on he recognized that the culture sucked.

Gettleman was true to his word and gave that core a second chance. They responded with a 1-7 start. So he got rid of all of them.

It remains to be seen if this group will turn it around, but we know for a fact the last group couldn�t get the job done.

Or we know for a fact McAdoo and Shurmur -- two guys with virtually nothing on their resumes to note as head coaches -- haven't done anything of note leading the Giants.

If the Giants turn it around this year and win a bunch of games, and Shurmur eventually leads this team to a ring, go ahead a take the locker room victory lap.

But again, to the OP, literally what evidence is there of an improved locker room this year, two pre-season games in?

...then Gettleman must be a wizard.

"So as he tries to rebuild the Giants into such a team, does he think there's a culture problem?
"Not anymore," Gettleman told NJ Advance Media's Steve Politi."

So do believe Gettleman or a random BBI poster?
I'll go with someone who has actually been in seven super bowl locker rooms over the past few decades and played a major part of the retention and selection of those players.

Gesh!

In comment 14535027 Daniel in Kentucky said:

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...then Gettleman must be a wizard. "So as he tries to rebuild the Giants into such a team, does he think there's a culture problem? "Not anymore," Gettleman told NJ Advance Media's Steve Politi." So do believe Gettleman or a random BBI poster? I'll go with someone who has actually been in seven super bowl locker rooms over the past few decades and played a major part of the retention and selection of those players. Gesh!

First -- there's a major difference between the GM saying he believes he's fixed a problem, and the OP who says he's seen "transformation in the locker room." That's where all this silliness started -- what evidence, in any way shape or form can someone outside point to regarding a "transformation."

Second -- and more importantly, let's see if this magic of culture starts contributing to some winning.

and that�s fine. Admit it and move on. Plenty of posters, myself included, see a difference. We�ve given examples. None of it is good enough for you. At what point do you stop replying to each post asking for video/photo evidence along with Ed taking notes?

Christ this is tiresome. It looks and sounds like a completely different team to me. Don�t agree? That�s fine.

In comment 14535027 Daniel in Kentucky said:

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...then Gettleman must be a wizard. "So as he tries to rebuild the Giants into such a team, does he think there's a culture problem? "Not anymore," Gettleman told NJ Advance Media's Steve Politi." So do believe Gettleman or a random BBI poster? I'll go with someone who has actually been in seven super bowl locker rooms over the past few decades and played a major part of the retention and selection of those players. Gesh!

That was such a ridiculous statement from him.

He brought in how many new people? And he 100% knows how they're all going to react in adversary? Give me a fucking break.

In comment 14535073 UConn4523 said:

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and that�s fine. Admit it and move on. Plenty of posters, myself included, see a difference. We�ve given examples. None of it is good enough for you. At what point do you stop replying to each post asking for video/photo evidence along with Ed taking notes? Christ this is tiresome. It looks and sounds like a completely different team to me. Don�t agree? That�s fine.

What signs are there from the 2019 locker room that indicate a transformation?

I�m also not trying to convince you, I don�t care what you think.

In comment 14535077 UConn4523 said:

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I�m also not trying to convince you, I don�t care what you think.

You're answer above was basically you don't have any (not surprising given that you, ya know have literally zero idea what's going on in the locker room), but the press has been more positive.

I completely agree the press and players have been more positive. I agree virtually every player who's expressed displeasure with the team has been let go, and I agree Shurmur has a clean slate to prove he can coach a winning team.

What's laughable is someone saying there's been a "transformation" when the "culture" problem just got wrapped up a few weeks ago, and the team is 2 pre-season games in.

Before declaring a transformation, maybe see how this group does when faced with any actual issues, and whether they can win 6 games?

be really ponderous to be a contrarian. They often demand evidence to support the majority opinion but rarely use any to support the minority opinion that they dig into.

That's why it is often such circular argument here.

It is often too why the same posters are on that side of the argument.

I just fucking posted my feelings on it. I�m not reposting, you can go back and read it. I�m not in the locker room, I�ve said repeatedly that this team looks and sounds different. Everything from top to bottom. If you think it�s no different than any other offseason, so be it. Not sure why you are dying on this hill.

it doesn't matter.

The argument is only being made for the sake of it.

When the same crew argues that Gettlemen doesn't do something - like shopping around Beckham, they hold onto that argument. He didn't have a plan it was said - not because of any stronger evidence than the locker room situation.

Heck, the most damning is the argument that Gettleman shuns analytics. They hold onto that argument with very little evidence to support it. They cling to a throwaway joke made in a presser like it was absolute truth.

It would be a lot easier if these discussions came with the disclaimer that the same posters siding against Gettleman on most moves should just say:

Until proven otherwise over a few winning seasons, Gettleman will never convince me he's competent."

I've criticized DG heavily, but if DJ is the goods, he'll win me over big time.

In comment 14535088 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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be really ponderous to be a contrarian. They often demand evidence to support the majority opinion but rarely use any to support the minority opinion that they dig into. That's why it is often such circular argument here. It is often too why the same posters are on that side of the argument.

Nothing circular for me champ -- my stance is pretty straight forward:

1) it takes way more than 2 weeks of pre-season to claim a "transformation" of the locker room and or culture. If even such a thing exists -- some time, adversity, and reacting well to the ups and downs of a season would be decent evidence before using such a broad term.

2) plenty of teams have won with dysfunctional locker rooms, players who act up, players who fight, and coaches and players who don't get along

3) a confident, well-prepared coach, stable management, and patient ownership are all good ways to combat the likely ups and downs in player behavior and actions, and being able to manage through those inevitabilities is paramount

Do you disagree?

In comment 14535096 UConn4523 said:

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I just fucking posted my feelings on it. I�m not reposting, you can go back and read it. I�m not in the locker room, I�ve said repeatedly that this team looks and sounds different. Everything from top to bottom. If you think it�s no different than any other offseason, so be it. Not sure why you are dying on this hill.

Amigo, you're the one cursing and seemingly getting bothered. I'm definitely no dying on an hills. I just think it's hokey, esoteric, rhetoric.

It'd be as loopy as if I said "I see the writing walls of a bad locker room because there is a brewing QB controversy, the prized offensive free agent acquisition is suspended, and there's already been a player dismissed from the team for a domestic violence incident."

Now all of those things are true, right? But because, ya know, it's week 2 of the pre-season, it's hokey to make a broad claim, right?

argument happens on anything regarding Gettleman:

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Nothing circular for me champ -- my stance is pretty straight forward:

The circular part comes when you have an OP talking about the locker room getting better and evidence is demanded, as if there aren't signs of better cohesion. Yet, threads can be made that Gettleman shuns analytics and no evidence is needed to be presented for the assumption that the board should just take the statement at face value.

This is a typical statement when it comes to some poster's views on Gettleman:

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That was such a ridiculous statement from him. He brought in how many new people? And he 100% knows how they're all going to react in adversary? Give me a fucking break.

Yet when he says something like we can have a situation like the Kansas City or Green Bay plan, it is taken seriously and that we 100% expect to have Jones sit for eternity.

If he talks about pretzels and hot dogs, it means he stubbornly doesn't listen to any trade offers.

The quotes people choose to believe vs. the ones they choose to shit on are pretty telling.

And it leads to circular discussion

"Until proven otherwise over a few winning seasons, Gettleman will never convince me he's competent."

I mean that's the point right, to have winning seasons?

I'm not sure what you are tuning in to see, but I'm looking for wins. Thats exactly his job description, put together multiple winning seasons.

You can give him a participation trophy if you want, I'll wait for results. So far, he took a three win team and turned it into a 5 win team. Not exactly setting the world on fire.

it to not see a guy get shit on for everything, just because for some warped reason you hold him accountable for years of poor play.

Look at some of the threads on here about Gettleman. He literally gets zero credit for his body of work over a career by some here. Great lengths are gone through to show that his record in Carolina was really just because he inherited great players. His work with the cap there is not mentioned.

He can be the first GM to actually institute an analytics program for that franchise and a few posters go on and on saying just because you put something in place doesn't mean it's a positive.

It's just a clown show. With the same crew putting on clown shoes.

It isn't being a "realist" or even thinking "outside the box" when a person is given no credit by certain posters on every single scenario. It's just being willfully ignorant.

If Gettleman needs to prove to you he has to build a winning team, micro-analyzing every move by putting a negative slant on it really isn't doing a damn thing.

I mean tuning in to actual NFL games, not threads on here.
You know, what this is all about.

I don't even know what the rest of your post means. I'm only responsible for what I post. Christian is only responsible for his posts. Its sounds like you are using a bunch of different arguments from a bunch different posters to refute what what is a pretty simple argument: Namely: this team team (including the GM) hasn't proven anything YET.

Neither of us use Coach Red Ballou posts to refute things you write. Please don't take random posts from random posters and assign it to my arguments.

It seems like you are projecting your feelings from the dude you argue about analytics with on this thread, and it doesn't really seem to apply.

There are a mix of posters who see Gettleman doing no good, no wrong, and then a majority waiting to see.

I tend to think culture and locker room are an effect of coaching, management, and ultimately winning. I hope the current group has the skills to deal with bad apples and bad personalities, because it's inevitable.

And making a claim there's been a "transformation" when we're at pre-season week two isn't pro-Gettleman, it's anti-logic.

In comment 14535119 BrettNYG10 said:

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I've criticized DG heavily, but if DJ is the goods, he'll win me over big time.

I agree with this 100%

Hitting on Jones will flip my view 100%. So far so good.

Fuck, I don't care if its Eli, Jones, Tanney, Lauletta Just give me winning football.

the QB controversy, in your hypothetical, is being handled by a 15 year vet and all time pros pro, and a rookie from what looks to be cut from the same cloth. So no, I wouldn�t buy that hypothetical at all. We made sure to get a QB with the same character that we get from Eli. Good try though (not really, that was a poor effort).

And that�s the theme here. More guys like Eli/Barkley and less like Collins and Beckham. But you are right, I�m just making up a hokey argument.

But you'd admit that because neither scenario has actually occured yet, neither are guaranteed nor evidence of a current "transformation," yes?

In comment 14535088 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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be really ponderous to be a contrarian. They often demand evidence to support the majority opinion but rarely use any to support the minority opinion that they dig into.

This is the poster child response as to what is wrong with debating anything on BBI.

Lord, you suck at it this and don't even see it...

is probably the #1 most ironic thing on BBI.

Bar none...

In comment 14535270 Jimmy Googs said:

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is probably the #1 most ironic thing on BBI. Bar none...

More ironic than you calling yourself smarter than a HOF football player?

Crick, coincidentally that poster now hangs prominently in the Giants new and transformed locker room as a sign of happiness to come.

In comment 14535281 christian said:

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Crick, coincidentally that poster now hangs prominently in the Giants new and transformed locker room as a sign of happiness to come.

Cool! I have the t-shirt. I get lotsa haterz.

Now if the Giants break .500 -- that might end up FmIC and me.

❤

Has brought new talent to the team. That talents needs to mature a bit but the progress is more than evident. DG has checked all the blocks to date. Enjoy this guys. We are going to show some teams playing the Giants isn�t an off day on the schedule. It�s going to be fun. Credit goes to our GM for what he�s done so far.

In comment 14535275 dep026 said:

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In comment 14535270 Jimmy Googs said: Quote: is probably the #1 most ironic thing on BBI. Bar none... More ironic than you calling yourself smarter than a HOF football player?

No dip...the bat signal isn't calling your name.

Texted a similar thought to a friend after the game:
Team looks like a TEAM. All supporting each other and communicating. Not a bunch of individuals.

Yes it's very early and maybe it's a by-product of winning but I want to see more of it.

In comment 14535288 Giant John said:

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Has brought new talent to the team. That talents needs to mature a bit but the progress is more than evident. DG has checked all the blocks to date. Enjoy this guys. We are going to show some teams playing the Giants isn�t an off day on the schedule. It�s going to be fun. Credit goes to our GM for what he�s done so far.

Gettleman has been pretty decisive, and the team is chalk full of young, cost-controlled draft picks, and some good prime veteran talent. He's done a good job in rebuild mode.

The next steps are really on Shurmur -- can he get the young guys playing thoughtful, low mistake football, and also handle the personality challenges when they come up.

Obviously the last character who held the job could not.

between some questionable ones which is a fair assessment for a team not yet showing anything yet on the board. Lets put up a better looking 2019 and see what happens.

Its Daniel Jones or bust for the fans that get it...

the irony is Googs talking about a fucking bat signal as he rushes to support the contrarian movement and joins the discussion just to add nothing.

And as usual with a prerequisite, pithy throwaway line.

The long, long troll job that continues to be a stain on BBI.

antics and ponderous criticisms. Your posts are akin to watching the History Channel and picturing you in 1940 goosestepping down the streets of Berlin...

The reclamation project is ongoing.

another parallel to Nazi Germany.

And you probably think that reflects more on me than you.

Just another feather to put in an already full Hat of Cluelessness.

...

Surely you jest. I mean how many people can tell former they are players that they are wrong from watching the game in the stands, drunk, and listening to the other experts fromnsection 202?

The first time Googs adds anything to the thread, it will be the first. Just be careful his protector doesn�t read your replies to him FMiC. He�s has a god immunity cause going for him.

It�s dep.

enters the conversation.

when you can't add anything of substance, just insinuate someone is a Nazi.

That's what Googs has been reduced to (or basically has always fucking been)

with each other and not go completely unhinged.

We really needed your repetitive colorful remarks which you spout off only have to do with football

Is if he talks in the third person like another infamous Jimmy.

probably makes sense in some language....

In comment 14535417 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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when you can't add anything of substance, just insinuate someone is a Nazi.

Yes, take the high road while calling posters fucksticks as you goosestep thru various threads...

taking the high road.

But I definitely talk football.

And you definitely are a fuckstick and rarely discuss football.

Pointing that out isn't taking a high road. Now, when you can point to me calling people Nazi's and posting pictures of Nazi Germany come talk. Of course, it still won't be about football, but we already understand that isn't going to happen.

Its when you stray and you go into your degrading evil self and become the ponderous lol fukstick-calling chucklehead that we go head-to-head.

Nevertheless, I�m sure this isn�t news to you...

In comment 14535426 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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probably makes sense in some language....

It doesn't surprise me that people with the dumbest takes generally can't string a sentence together.