....start Daniel Jones but is being thwarted by John Mara.
This morning he referenced a recent Shurmur quote when asked by the media for his evaluation of the current QB competition. It was something along the lines of "You heard what our owner recently said." Gio thinks that this implies Shurmur would really like to start Jones now, but he can't do so because his hands are tied.
You never hear of QBs making a leap from year to year? what is that based on if not game experience?
Eli is starting because he gives them the best chance to win, RIGHT NOW.
Eli started on the bench because they thought Warner gave them that chance. They also wanted Kerry Collins to do it but he refused. Eli was inserted when Warner was no longer helping them win games.
Jones, Eli, the team and coaches all seem cool with the plan. It is a good plan. Eli will not start all year if he sucks, Jones is no Webb. Chill man, take it easy.
Don't worry about a ting'
Every little ting' gonna be alright.
You wouldn't have numerous examples of a guy with very little game experience coming in year 2 or 3 and being excellent, whether it is Rivers, Rodgers, Mahomes, Brady.
If game experience was absolutely essential, low draft picks like Kirk Cousins wouldn't step onto the field when injury to a starter happens and play well.
And it isn't an absolute here. Only a fool would say that experience never helps guys - but to call it essential or that players NEED experience, there are so many examples in both directions that refute it.
You've apparently ignored all of them,so I wonder why that may be.....
You've apparently ignored all of them,so I wonder why that may be.....
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If your already looking past 2019 and just want to use it as a 20 game preseason, you don't wait.
That’s one helluva leap you’re attributing to the Giants. No way, shape, manner, or form are they treating this season as a warmup for 2020.
No, you misinterpreted it. I know the Giants are not.
Even in you examples, Brady wasn't the player in 2002 he was in 2007
You are being overly pedantic using absolutes like need or essential.
But if you want to hold on to the theory that experience isn't very important to the vast majority of players that's fine. I'll just make sure to remind you when you are calling posters fucksticks for complaing about Jones growing pains when he eventually gets his shot.
In high school football, you have the established player at the position while you groom his successor. Same in college. Same in the NFL.
This practice is as old as the game itself.
Even in you examples, Brady wasn't the player in 2002 he was in 2007
You are being overly pedantic using absolutes like need or essential.
But if you want to hold on to the theory that experience isn't very important to the vast majority of players that's fine. I'll just make sure to remind you when you are calling posters fucksticks for complaing about Jones growing pains when he eventually gets his shot.
When I call you dim, trace it back to posts like this.
My entire argument has been to refute that there are absolutes. Starting with the premise that it is essential for Jones to play this year to develop.
You seemingly haven't grasped the points I've made that development, especially early in a career isn't tied specifically to one method or another, and the data bears that out.
So you are either not grasping them because you are dim or because you're being willfully ignorant. You can choose whichever option makes you look the best.....
In high school football, you have the established player at the position while you groom his successor. Same in college. Same in the NFL.
This practice is as old as the game itself.
This is old and stale thinking.
We are in a cap era where hitting on a rookie QB's contract is gold. The trickle down impact is huge. It opens up considerably more investment options. So you can't look at this through a traditional lens.
The league is built now for instant QB success. It's never been easier - ever - to jump from college to the pros, especially with the pro game adopting more elements of the college game. Hell, the high school has adopted pro elements. So much so that I think Trevor Lawrence could have been ready to play in a pro game right out of high school.
It's a great, great time to be bold...
I never said it was essential that jones plays year one. I said it would be better to start the process sooner. Maybe I used the word preferred
Even when I say players need experience, it's pretty clear to a rational person I wasn't talking about 100% of the population.
Is there really more than that?
The importance imv for Jones to see some quality playing time in 2019 is it would allow for a higher level of confidence on what the team might be able to achieve with him at the helm in 2020.
And I didn't say just Jones' confidence...
I disagree. There's no reason to believe that Jones' confidence will be higher in 2020 due to playing some in 2019.
No reason? Sure there is.
If you stick with conventional wisdom that the game is going to slow down going into year two, which you essentially here all the time from QBs after playing their first year, then it's more than reasonable extrapolate out that confidence will improve.
he is definitely practicing, but probably not getting any significant reps unless running the scout team.
Film work will help his learning but there is no replacement for live game reps. I know that is a controversial take.
I never said it was essential that jones plays year one. I said it would be better to start the process sooner. Maybe I used the word preferred
Even when I say players need experience, it's pretty clear to a rational person I wasn't talking about 100% of the population.
What argument am I twisting?? I can show examples of good experience being gained vs. bad experience being gained, so it is not essential to play a rookie to get him game experience and it can absolutely be detrimental to development.
Hell, even the term experience is being blurred here - because earlier in the thread it most definitely was meant the experience gained in year 1 vs. sitting him. Now it is turning into the experience over an entire body of work. So who is twisting what now?
There's even a counter to the point that experience develops players in the long-term. Tell me how much experience helped Mark Sanchez. How is it helping Jameis Winston? What about Case Keenum? Did getting experience help Colin Kaep develop?
The argument started out that if Jones doesn't play this year, his development will be delayed. And that point has still yet to be proven. That isn't twisting any words - it still isn't proven.
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that if Jones isn't playing, then he must be vacationing. That there's no practice or film work or anything like that. Or maybe none of that matters?
he is definitely practicing, but probably not getting any significant reps unless running the scout team.
Film work will help his learning but there is no replacement for live game reps. I know that is a controversial take.
But it's not nothing either. And, given the unreliability of whether throwing someone into the fire works or not, it would seem valuable to mention *all* forms of development available to him. And I'm not at all sure that throwing 2019 games for the sake of speculative 2020 improvement does all that much. I think a win is still one game in either season.
I'm willing to wager that he will fall someone in between there.
Since Pedant in Carolina thew out a list of players for his side of the argument, allow me to put out a list of players with bad to mediocre starts who developed into pretty damn good players
Let me start of the list with Eli Manning - no back up necessary
Drew Brees - 8-8 starting year 2 with 205 yards per game and 76 rating
Tony Romo in his third year went 6-4 with 19 tds and 13 ints, 180 yards per game
Big Ben - we all argue how pedestrian he was his first year despite the team record
Alex Smith had a rough start but wound up having a 15 year career with a 66% winning percentage
Kirk Cousins who fatman has on his side of the ledger had a very good first game against what I'm guessing was a terrible browns team but actually went 2-7 over the first three years with a QB rating if 41 and 52 in year 2 and three
Joe Montana went 2-5 in his first real action year 2 throwing for 120 yards a game
Peyton Manning threw 28 ints his first year
I could go on and on and on , but I guess these guys are just outliers
The premise is that if Jones doesn't play this year, his development will be delayed. It is as basic as that.
And it is an unprovable point.
The premise is that if Jones doesn't play this year, his development will be delayed. It is as basic as that.
And it is an unprovable point.
of course its unprovable you pedant.
How could I possibly prove it?
But history shows that most QBs have growing pains when they start playing and improve with experience.
Of course some, maybe even most, never make it to what we like to call franchise QB. But even that is useful information to the franchise playing them.
The premise is that if Jones doesn't play this year, his development will be delayed. It is as basic as that.
And it is an unprovable point.
Let's try it this way - it be not be delayed, but is could be accelerated, true?
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you really don't even seem to grasp what the discussion was.
The premise is that if Jones doesn't play this year, his development will be delayed. It is as basic as that.
And it is an unprovable point.
Let's try it this way - it be not be delayed, but is could be accelerated, true?
Geesh - should read: it may not be delayed, but it could be accelerated, true?
In addition, there are just as many instances of young QBs not playing early in their careers that have helped them versus hindered them.
It 6 to 5 and pick em' so flip the coin and tell Jones whether he should suit up tonight or not.
Why don't you go back to ganging up on the autistic kid in the OBJ thread. That's more your speed.
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From the 3 stooges.
Why don't you go back to ganging up on the autistic kid in the OBJ thread.
Not sure I could tell the difference actually...
Absolutely super!
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In comment 14539671 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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you really don't even seem to grasp what the discussion was.
The premise is that if Jones doesn't play this year, his development will be delayed. It is as basic as that.
And it is an unprovable point.
Let's try it this way - it be not be delayed, but is could be accelerated, true?
Geesh - should read: it may not be delayed, but it could be accelerated, true?
At the unnecessary expense of a season with no tangible benefit.
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From the 3 stooges.
Why don't you go back to ganging up on the autistic kid in the OBJ thread. That's more your speed.
You’re making fun of a disability? Christ that’s more of a Les in TO thing.... but reaching scumbag levels entices all I suppose. That’s more on your “radar” I suppose.
Absolutely super!
You 3 dimwits have been here all day. Just need Santa to finish off the crew.
At the unnecessary expense of a season with no tangible benefit.
That's the pessimistic view.
As the optimist among us, I think it could be pay dirt with Jones. ;)
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In comment 14539720 dep026 said:
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From the 3 stooges.
Why don't you go back to ganging up on the autistic kid in the OBJ thread. That's more your speed.
You’re making fun of a disability? Christ that’s more of a Les in TO thing.... but reaching scumbag levels entices all I suppose. That’s more on your “radar” I suppose.
I'm not making fun of shit, rover admitted he's on the spectrum and you fucking shit stains still pick on him
Absolutely super!
LOL, nah - I already voiced my opinion on this topic. None of you guys are changing each other's minds here - it looks like hours were spent debating this and it went nowhere. I didn't even read the posts, really. A little skim and that was all. I just see this thread near the top of the forum any time I refresh the page and there's 300+ posts on it now. So, obviously everyone's still going.
I just don't think it's a one-size-fits-all thing when it comes to when to start a rookie QB. I think it just depends on the player. It depends on the type of offense he's coming from, the school, the coaching he's had, what he still needs to work on, etc.
I think allowing Eli to start the season with the understanding that if he isn't winning games, he's getting a quick hook is a pretty fair way to approach this. I wouldn't sit him if we start 0-1... but I also wouldn't wait until something like 2-6.
Eli is starting with the expectation that he needs to win. We all know that. If Jones sits for the first 4-5 weeks of his rookie career, it's not going to do anything to hinder his development.
And if Jones is sitting longer than that, it should mean the Giants are above .500 and firmly in the mix in the NFC. I don't expect this scenario, but I would not be upset with Eli continuing to play should that turn out to be the case.
I don't think anyone should really be angry if the Giants are sitting 2-3 games over .500 come the halfway point of the season and Eli is having a bit of a resurgence.
When the time comes, Daniel will be ready.
I'm not making fun of shit, rover admitted he's on the spectrum and you fucking shit stains still pick on him
Lol, sure. Just make it known about his disability. Classy. And I don’t discriminate on who I pick on. It could be rover, a bad fan, or the three stooges. I treat all of them the same.
Now go get ready for the Tae-Tae concert with your bosom buddies. You guys did great work today.
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In comment 14539707 bw in dc said:
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In comment 14539671 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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you really don't even seem to grasp what the discussion was.
The premise is that if Jones doesn't play this year, his development will be delayed. It is as basic as that.
And it is an unprovable point.
Let's try it this way - it be not be delayed, but is could be accelerated, true?
Geesh - should read: it may not be delayed, but it could be accelerated, true?
At the unnecessary expense of a season with no tangible benefit.
I know you know that we will win more with the incumbent. And, if, or when, we can’t we can see how Jones can spark us. It only is that what the plan actually is, it’s the most sensible one.
The Giants have a good opportunity to upgrade the roster in the 2020 offseason via UFA, and they absolutely should be building that team around Jones.
I'd suspect Accorsi approached the UFA period in 2005 with a grocery list of what would compliment Manning. He got a big, wingspan receiver and a right, not left tackle.
The Giants aren't fielding a train wreck of a team where Jones is going to get destroyed. Gettleman is fielding a component line, a fabulous half back, and a professional (if uninspiring) WR core.
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I'm not making fun of shit, rover admitted he's on the spectrum and you fucking shit stains still pick on him
Lol, sure. Just make it known about his disability. Classy. And I don’t discriminate on who I pick on. It could be rover, a bad fan, or the three stooges. I treat all of them the same.
Now go get ready for the Tae-Tae concert with your bosom buddies. You guys did great work today.
Yeah, you sound like a super guy...
I think allowing Eli to start the season with the understanding that if he isn't winning games, he's getting a quick hook is a pretty fair way to approach this. I wouldn't sit him if we start 0-1... but I also wouldn't wait until something like 2-6.
Do you think that's been declared internally with Eli? Or are they going to sort of make it up as they go?
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I think allowing Eli to start the season with the understanding that if he isn't winning games, he's getting a quick hook is a pretty fair way to approach this. I wouldn't sit him if we start 0-1... but I also wouldn't wait until something like 2-6.
Do you think that's been declared internally with Eli? Or are they going to sort of make it up as they go?
I think that public opinion among the fans is going to be a much bigger factor than anyone is talking about. They really shit the bed last time and I don't think they make a move without MOST fans on board. You are going to see a lot of leaks and rumors that Shurmur wants to start Jones coming out to try and gauge what fans think.
Just saw this. That is very funny.
You’ve got to hand it to Fat-Mara. He’s building for the future. Taking his disciples - arc, dep, Bill, Brit et al - under his wing and teaching them his methods. Each of them with their assigned roles in the meantime...
I think that public opinion among the fans is going to be a much bigger factor than anyone is talking about. They really shit the bed last time and I don't think they make a move without MOST fans on board. You are going to see a lot of leaks and rumors that Shurmur wants to start Jones coming out to try and gauge what fans think.
I said earlier that if you gave Shurmur a shot of Sodium Pentothal right now he would confess that Jones is indeed his choice.
But he’s got no leverage on this. Mara wrote and owns the delegations of authority. And they’ve been tightened up since the catastrophe Mara created with the drama with Eli in Geno Gate. Despite what Mara said last week with his goofy, phony presser, Shurmur calls no final shots on Eli. He can only recommend.