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Gio (from Boomer & Gio) thinks Pat Shurmur wants to....

Emlen'sGremlins : 8/19/2019 10:29 am
....start Daniel Jones but is being thwarted by John Mara.

This morning he referenced a recent Shurmur quote when asked by the media for his evaluation of the current QB competition. It was something along the lines of "You heard what our owner recently said." Gio thinks that this implies Shurmur would really like to start Jones now, but he can't do so because his hands are tied.
Yes, that is the current hot take du jour.  
Britt in VA : 8/19/2019 10:30 am : link
.
I disagree with it, though.  
Britt in VA : 8/19/2019 10:31 am : link
Manning gives the team the best chance to win right now, and Pat Shurmur undoubtedly wants to win games.
I agree, personally  
Saos1n : 8/19/2019 10:31 am : link
Not going to be a popular opinion around here, but so be it
If Shurmur wanted to start Jones,  
Big Blue '56 : 8/19/2019 10:33 am : link
Jones would start. The rest is nonsense.
Is anyone surprised by this?  
Jay on the Island : 8/19/2019 10:33 am : link
Just another example of the sports media manufacturing a story.
Mara gave the okay to start Geno or Webb over Eli ending Eli's streak but he's not okay with starting the 6th overall pick who has exceeded expectations thus far over Eli.
Is it written is stone somewhere...  
Tesla : 8/19/2019 10:33 am : link
that Eli gives the team the best chance to win right now? Or is that just an opinion?
Maybe he heard the snippet like almost everybody else but  
robbieballs2003 : 8/19/2019 10:33 am : link
not the whole response. If you hear the snippet then, yeah, it sounds like that. But if you are going to have an opinion then listen to the whole response.
I don't know why  
Pep22 : 8/19/2019 10:34 am : link
anyone would think Eli gives them the best shot to win. He hasn't been the only problem in recent losing seasons, but he's certainly one of them. Let's all try to get current in our view such that we can turn the page.
NFW ... the quote is out of context ...  
Spider56 : 8/19/2019 10:35 am : link
PS was getting frustrated with the dumbass media asking him the same shit over and over ... so he meant even if you donít believe me, the owner just said It (Manningís the starter) too. Itís with good reason that journalists are often called muckrakers.
Jones has looked very good so far  
Jay on the Island : 8/19/2019 10:35 am : link
Far better than I expected him to thus far. With that said he still has things to work on and Eli Manning gives this team the best chance to win. I have seen nearly every camp reporter praise Eli's performance and arm strength this training camp.
Gio..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/19/2019 10:36 am : link
sounds like he posts here.

Apparently Mara is so beholden to Eli that he makes personnel decisions on whether or not he has placated the Manning family.

The worst part of that take is there are BBI'ers who recite that as gospel truth
I want to start Jones, and it's not a slight on Eli.  
Mike in Long Beach : 8/19/2019 10:36 am : link
I just think the days of having a back-up QB sit for a year are coming to an end. These kids are far more prepared now to learn on the job, and the nature of the game now (quick drop back, get the ball out quickly) keeps it simple enough where a young quarterback can learn at his own pace without necessarily being a substantial detriment to the team.

The question I keep asking myself is, are the Giants better off 5 years from now if Jones is the starter this season. I feel confident the answer is yes. Then I ask myself, are the Giants better off this year if Eli is the starting QB. My answer is also yes, but I have far less confidence in that take than I do the first one. So with that, I want to start Jones on day one.

Obviously, this is very unlikely to happen, which ultimately I guess is fine. For better or worse, Eli has earned the opportunity to be the opening day starter one last time.
I can easily see it  
UberAlias : 8/19/2019 10:37 am : link
Mara cares about Eli's legacy. He knows Eli hasn't gotten a fair shake in recent years with the state of the Oline.

The plan was to start Eli as long as the team was competitive and let whatever QB they drafted sit and learn under him. That's a reasonable plan, but what happens if the QB you drafted is ready to play and gives you the best chance to win?
Oh FFS  
GiantsRage2007 : 8/19/2019 10:40 am : link
Now it isn't what people say, it's how they say it, or what they implied? Good God.... when does the season start?
The  
AcidTest : 8/19/2019 10:41 am : link
owners want to win. The owners want to start the QB that gives them the best chance of doing so. Right now, that is Eli. Whether that changes as the season progresses is unknown. The Giants are a proud franchise with a long history of winning that has been absent for more than half a decade.
I think he's correct  
arniefez : 8/19/2019 10:42 am : link
Shurmur has to try and keep his job. Playing Jones right away is probably the best way to do that.
Anyone who thinks Mara doesn't have a say in this...  
Tesla : 8/19/2019 10:43 am : link
is willfully ignorant. It's a fact that McAdoo had to get permission from Mara before benching Eli in 2017. Why would it be any different now?

Not saying Shurmer want to start Jones....but how the hell can anyone deny that Mara will be involved in the decision to switch QB's at some point????
Gio is on the show for comedic inpact  
Peter from NH (formerly CT) : 8/19/2019 10:43 am : link
he is hardly someone who is in any way plugged in with regard to the Giants or any other athletic team... there are a lot of opinions here that have way more weight than him.
What a load of horse shit  
Jints in Carolina : 8/19/2019 10:44 am : link
If Shurmur wants to start Jones, he will.
RE: What a load of horse shit  
Tesla : 8/19/2019 10:46 am : link
In comment 14535680 Jints in Carolina said:
Quote:
If Shurmur wants to start Jones, he will.


Really? He wouldn't need Mara's consent to bench Eli?
I believe the line was taken out of  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 8/19/2019 10:46 am : link
context.
RE: What a load of horse shit  
nygiants16 : 8/19/2019 10:46 am : link
In comment 14535680 Jints in Carolina said:
Quote:
If Shurmur wants to start Jones, he will.


you think mara said no he wants eli to start that shrmur could over rule him?

Mara will have a say in any decisio regarding the qb
Typical boomer and gio show  
TrueBlue56 : 8/19/2019 10:47 am : link
This was so last week and they are just coming out with this hot take now? How original of them.

Shurmur says John mara only reiterated what he and gettleman have been saying since they drafted Daniel Jones. Of course right on cue the usual media airheads only hear and see what they want to fit their agenda.

There is a reason I never listen to boomers show or really most shows on wfan. Hot garbage with no knowledge of anything.

SiriusXM is so much better
So let's..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/19/2019 10:48 am : link
align the tin foil to get this straight:

Mara once wanted Eli benched, but since that was botched, he now wants him to start to preserve his legacy and appease the Mannings.

Is that what we are all going with???
RE: NFW ... the quote is out of context ...  
Blue21 : 8/19/2019 10:50 am : link
In comment 14535658 Spider56 said:
Quote:
PS was getting frustrated with the dumbass media asking him the same shit over and over ... so he meant even if you donít believe me, the owner just said It (Manningís the starter) too. Itís with good reason that journalists are often called muckrakers.



I agree. I believe this was what he's trying to say. As far as Mara having to know first before the switch is made that's probably true except in a blowout Jones will then enter the game. PS has put DJ in position to succeed so far. I doubt he wants to start him on the road in Dallas.
RE: RE: What a load of horse shit  
Jints in Carolina : 8/19/2019 10:54 am : link
In comment 14535687 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
In comment 14535680 Jints in Carolina said:


Quote:


If Shurmur wants to start Jones, he will.



you think mara said no he wants eli to start that shrmur could over rule him?

Mara will have a say in any decisio regarding the qb


Of course he'll have a say...but if Shurmur is adamant about it, Mara is going to tell him no?
There is a broad spectrum between  
Mike from Ohio : 8/19/2019 10:56 am : link
Shurmur starts whoever he likes, and Mara dictates who starts. But as usual, the argument here breaks into those two camps.

Shurmur is coaching for his future. He may prefer to start Jones but realize if he does (knowing Mara would prefer to play Eli) then his rope gets shorter with another bad season. That has to factor into his decision making.

Not all pressure to do what the owner prefers has to be a stated demand. If Shurmur said he was going to start Jones I think Mara would stand behind it even if he disagreed. But I think he would be on much weaker ground to keep his job if Jones does not play lights out. Shurmur has failed in his first stop as a head coach. If he is fired from here after two seasons he is likely done as a head coach in the NFL.

And I am not saying this because I truly believe he wants to start Jones. Like everyone else on this thread, I have no idea what he really wants so I need to take him at his word. I don't believe if Mara was forcing him to start Eli that he would hint at it in the media.
RE: RE: RE: What a load of horse shit  
bigbluehoya : 8/19/2019 10:57 am : link
In comment 14535703 Jints in Carolina said:
Quote:
In comment 14535687 nygiants16 said:


Quote:


In comment 14535680 Jints in Carolina said:


Quote:


If Shurmur wants to start Jones, he will.



you think mara said no he wants eli to start that shrmur could over rule him?

Mara will have a say in any decisio regarding the qb



Of course he'll have a say...but if Shurmur is adamant about it, Mara is going to tell him no?


If Shurmur approached him today? My take -- Mara would absolutely tell him no. He MAY have been open to the idea of moving on if someone made a compelling case in the offseason (I suspect Mara was a major advocate of bringing Eli back regardless), but once they brought him back in the offseason they absolutely were not taking the starting job away from him before even Week 1.
I'm guessing the jock is creating a click bait soundbyte  
JonC : 8/19/2019 10:58 am : link
There could be some truth to it, but this tidbit on its face isn't enough for a declaration.
Who starts at QB isn't solely the decision of the HC  
Section331 : 8/19/2019 11:00 am : link
for any team in the league. Even Belichick couldn't bench Brady without Kraft's approval. ANY team making a change at QB would be an organizational decision, not a HC decision. But I think DG would be more of an impediment for Shurmur to start Jones than Mara.
I believe Pat when he said  
ron mexico : 8/19/2019 11:02 am : link
The they are all on the same page with regards to Eli starting (side note, that is the exact same phrase Mac used when discussing the benching in 2017)

When the decision was made to keep Eli for the year and let him play out his contract, I believe it was a decision that Pat, Dave and John all made together, as you would expect on a decision of that magnitude. Whether or not that decision is in the best long term interest of the franchise is a debate for another thread.

I do not buy that Mara had no say in the matter though.

RE: I agree, personally  
allstarjim : 8/19/2019 11:04 am : link
In comment 14535648 Saos1n said:
Quote:
Not going to be a popular opinion around here, but so be it


Me too. Daniel Jones is Shurmur's QB. That is the QB he and Gettleman drafted, that is who will or will not define and decide their futures with this organization. Everyone knows NFL stands for Not For Long, and this is especially true when it comes to tenure as a head coach in the league. Will Shurmur survive a disaster season with Eli under center? Do you think that crosses his mind? Of course it does. Here's the thing, young QBs with no starting experience in the NFL do not win many games. If you're Shurmur, do you want to start that clock sooner or later? If I'm him, I want Jones to start getting experience with live bullets flying and ramp up that development clock. That is Shurmur's best chance for long-term stability with the organization. If Eli plays this season and the team doesn't win, and then Jones starts next year and he team doesn't win, Shurmur's job will be in jeopardy.
Nobody  
Pete in MD : 8/19/2019 11:09 am : link
who witnessed or listened to a recording of that Q&A with Shurmur would have taken his comment as a veiled complaint about Mara telling him who start at QB. He was trying to be funny or cheeky. It was basically saying, "Eli is the starter, I keep saying it, Dave Gettleman keeps saying it, even the owner said it the other day."
RE: So let's..  
UberAlias : 8/19/2019 11:21 am : link
In comment 14535694 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
align the tin foil to get this straight:

Mara once wanted Eli benched, but since that was botched, he now wants him to start to preserve his legacy and appease the Mannings.

Is that what we are all going with???
Um, you left out a few details. That was December, the team was 2-9 and out of contention on a season that started out 0-5. Eli was an immobile QB playing poorly behind a sieve of an Oline and the HC and GM had lost confidence in him. The owner got absolutely ripped for the decision, Eli was inserted back into the lineup and finished the season, even against momentum to play Webb. Since that point, we've heard nothing from the organization that wasn't consistent with the idea "Eli has years left" and suggestions that the root of the issues were Oline.
I know everyone is hyped about DJ right now  
gmen9892 : 8/19/2019 11:22 am : link
But we still have to take both of his performances for what they were. VERY encouraging but, against 2nd and 3rd stringers (and even some 4th) that will not be playing on Sundays.

Eli looked very good last game as well. In the end, I assume Shurmur is going to want to start a guy that knows his system down pat and will make all the right calls.

If/when Eli shows he's not capable of being an average to above-average NFL quarterback behind a better OL, Shurmur will make the change. I understand why the media wants to fuel these fires, but it's really based on a shitload of speculation.
RE: RE: RE: What a load of horse shit  
nygiants16 : 8/19/2019 11:24 am : link
In comment 14535703 Jints in Carolina said:
Quote:
In comment 14535687 nygiants16 said:


Quote:


In comment 14535680 Jints in Carolina said:


Quote:


If Shurmur wants to start Jones, he will.



you think mara said no he wants eli to start that shrmur could over rule him?

Mara will have a say in any decisio regarding the qb



Of course he'll have a say...but if Shurmur is adamant about it, Mara is going to tell him no?


if shurmur went into maras office today and said he thinks jones gives him the best chance to win and it is better for the future of the franchise that jones starts, you think mara says ok?
RE: RE: What a load of horse shit  
Bill L : 8/19/2019 11:25 am : link
In comment 14535685 Tesla said:
Quote:
In comment 14535680 Jints in Carolina said:


Quote:


If Shurmur wants to start Jones, he will.



Really? He wouldn't need Mara's consent to bench Eli?

Mara has already stated that.

Anything else is the spin in your own head.
RE: I think he's correct  
Bill L : 8/19/2019 11:27 am : link
In comment 14535673 arniefez said:
Quote:
Shurmur has to try and keep his job. Playing Jones right away is probably the best way to do that.


This is from MMQB:
Quote:
As for Jones, itís nearly impossible to get a read on him against the current level of competition, but itís easy to see thereís still some work to be done. His trigger isnít as fast as Manningís and heís not playing as talented a defense. At least from my vantage point, Manning (naturally) is processing the game faster and thatís still more advantageous in this kind of offense than a nice deep ball. To his credit, Jones dove for the first ball he fumbled, and on the touchdown pass to Jones, he did a nice job of freezing the safety with his eyes before going up top and taking advantage of the single coverage.

At this point, any controversy seems manufactured; the product of the first real whiff of a quarterback controversy this part of New Jersey has seen in more than a decade.Ē
RE: If Shurmur wanted to start Jones,  
HomerJones45 : 8/19/2019 11:27 am : link
In comment 14535651 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
Jones would start. The rest is nonsense.
Shurmur doesn't have that kind of juice. He's lucky to even be a head coach and he won't be one for much longer unless he cracks the magical 6 win barrier that has so far eluded him as a HC. He will do what he is told and like it or he'll be replaced.

That said, I don't think that was the Gettlemen plan and the plan isn't changing because the kid completed a few passes in preseason games against scrubs. For the business minded, Mara isn't writing multi-million dollar checks to Manning to sit on the bench in the final year of his contract. Manning is playing this year.
For Everyone Dismissing This:  
Giants38 : 8/19/2019 11:27 am : link
I neither listen to the show nor know anything about Gio's credibility. What I do know is that: 1) Shurmur and Gettlemen regarded DJ highly enough to pick him at #6 overall; and 2) everyone involved has acknowledged that Mara would be notified before anyone benches Eli.

For anyone to think that Mara is not involved here is simply choosing to ignore the obvious. Sure, Mara approved the decision to bench Eli. Mara then quickly changed his story and, within a week of the benching, fired McAdoo and Reese. Mara then opened his mouth within the past week or so and stated that he hopes DJ doesn't play a down this season.

I have no idea if Mara is "thwarting" the attempts to start DJ. But, it's not as simple as Shurmur going, "I'm starting DJ, deal with it".
RE: RE: RE: RE: What a load of horse shit  
Pep22 : 8/19/2019 11:27 am : link
In comment 14535748 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
In comment 14535703 Jints in Carolina said:


Quote:


In comment 14535687 nygiants16 said:


Quote:


In comment 14535680 Jints in Carolina said:


Quote:


If Shurmur wants to start Jones, he will.



you think mara said no he wants eli to start that shrmur could over rule him?

Mara will have a say in any decisio regarding the qb



Of course he'll have a say...but if Shurmur is adamant about it, Mara is going to tell him no?



if shurmur went into maras office today and said he thinks jones gives him the best chance to win and it is better for the future of the franchise that jones starts, you think mara says ok?


1) I don't think Mara okays it at this juncture.
2) I think putting Eli's legacy or anyone's opportunities over the team vision is the worst way to manage an organization.
RE: RE: RE: RE: What a load of horse shit  
Section331 : 8/19/2019 11:28 am : link
In comment 14535748 nygiants16 said:
Quote:


if shurmur went into maras office today and said he thinks jones gives him the best chance to win and it is better for the future of the franchise that jones starts, you think mara says ok?


Shurmur wouldn't walk into Mara's office, he'd walk into Gettleman's. As I said earlier, the starting QB is an organizational decision, and that is not unique to the Giants.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: What a load of horse shit  
Bill L : 8/19/2019 11:30 am : link
In comment 14535756 Pep22 said:
Quote:




1) I don't think Mara okays it at this juncture.
2) I think putting Eli's legacy or anyone's opportunities over the team vision is the worst way to manage an organization.


Absent any evidence whatsoever, conjecture is just fantasy.
Unsure  
Thegratefulhead : 8/19/2019 11:32 am : link
I think Mara has input regarding Eli. He is an owner. I believe Shurmur could start Jones, he would have to ask and he had better be right(job would be on the line). Eli starts until he proves he should not. He is going to do well.
RE: RE: If Shurmur wanted to start Jones,  
Giants38 : 8/19/2019 11:32 am : link
In comment 14535754 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
In comment 14535651 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


Jones would start. The rest is nonsense.

Shurmur doesn't have that kind of juice. He's lucky to even be a head coach and he won't be one for much longer unless he cracks the magical 6 win barrier that has so far eluded him as a HC. He will do what he is told and like it or he'll be replaced.

That said, I don't think that was the Gettlemen plan and the plan isn't changing because the kid completed a few passes in preseason games against scrubs. For the business minded, Mara isn't writing multi-million dollar checks to Manning to sit on the bench in the final year of his contract. Manning is playing this year.


I also completely agree with this statement. Executives and coaches take the safe approach: namely, what will keep them employed. If Shurmur starts Eli and the team loses, and then he moves on to Jones, he's safe. It's what the owner wants and then no one will blame him.

Alternatively, if Shurmur starts DJ, and the team is horrendous (with DJ flopping, even if only for his rookie season), he will have ticked off the owner, and everyone will second guess his decision to sit Eli for this season.
I can't wait  
18E : 8/19/2019 11:34 am : link
To see Eli behind this line... Very much looking forward to seeing him stick it up all of the doubters asses.
Jones isn't likely to see much more than vanilla D this preseason  
UberAlias : 8/19/2019 11:40 am : link
Throwing him into the fire on the road against Dallas is a bad idea, IMO. That is a whole different animal and no need to subject him to it. Let him watch and learn from the old man. I think you turn it over to him at some point, but you have to be smart about it.
RE: I know everyone is hyped about DJ right now  
V.I.G. : 8/19/2019 11:49 am : link
In comment 14535742 gmen9892 said:
Quote:
Eli looked very good last game as well. In the end, I assume Shurmur is going to want to start a guy that knows his system down pat and will make all the right calls.
Shurmur wants more than right calls. He wants a QB that can make the confident decisive passes, and make the passes accurately enough for YAC. YAC accuracy has never been Eli's strength. His strength used to be that gunslinger confident toss. He's been gun shy the last few years, hopefully that changes.

Here's my take:
1) Shurmur and DG will be talking with each other and Mara for many weeks before any switch. It won't be one week Shurmur walks in and says now's the time.

2) The fans will be calling for the switch long before it happens. This will soften Mara's sensitivities.

3) The debate will be how they define 'out of playoff contention'. Mathematically? Realistically? And it will be an intense debate. The media will be a divisive click bait hurricane and the fans will be restless.

PREDICTION: PAIN
Of course he does  
ZogZerg : 8/19/2019 11:51 am : link
Trying for ratings...

Showing what a moron he is.
holy cherry picking of facts Batman  
gidiefor : Mod : 8/19/2019 11:52 am : link
Shurmur also said -- in a neighboring comment that he and Mara were "on the same page"

Nothing to see here -- and in my opinion Jones will benefit from not being rushed onto the regular season field

However, one thing I do believe right now is that Jones should be the clear backup if Eli goes down. Tanney on the field is lose, lose as is Lauletta
RE: RE: If Shurmur wanted to start Jones,  
Pep22 : 8/19/2019 11:59 am : link
In comment 14535754 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
In comment 14535651 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


Jones would start. The rest is nonsense.

Shurmur doesn't have that kind of juice. He's lucky to even be a head coach and he won't be one for much longer unless he cracks the magical 6 win barrier that has so far eluded him as a HC. He will do what he is told and like it or he'll be replaced.

That said, I don't think that was the Gettlemen plan and the plan isn't changing because the kid completed a few passes in preseason games against scrubs. For the business minded, Mara isn't writing multi-million dollar checks to Manning to sit on the bench in the final year of his contract. Manning is playing this year.


As an investor, the worst thing to do is look back on $$ spent to influence future decisions. Paying Eli elite $$ and playing him have to be viewed as two different things. Whether the compensation is a mistake or not is one thing. Don't double down on the mistake by starting him if he will continue to play poorly as I would expect.
RE: RE: RE: If Shurmur wanted to start Jones,  
Bill L : 8/19/2019 12:02 pm : link
In comment 14535818 Pep22 said:
Quote:
In comment 14535754 HomerJones45 said:


Quote:


In comment 14535651 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


Jones would start. The rest is nonsense.

Shurmur doesn't have that kind of juice. He's lucky to even be a head coach and he won't be one for much longer unless he cracks the magical 6 win barrier that has so far eluded him as a HC. He will do what he is told and like it or he'll be replaced.

That said, I don't think that was the Gettlemen plan and the plan isn't changing because the kid completed a few passes in preseason games against scrubs. For the business minded, Mara isn't writing multi-million dollar checks to Manning to sit on the bench in the final year of his contract. Manning is playing this year.



As an investor, the worst thing to do is look back on $$ spent to influence future decisions. Paying Eli elite $$ and playing him have to be viewed as two different things. Whether the compensation is a mistake or not is one thing. Don't double down on the mistake by starting him if he will continue to play poorly as I would expect.

Expectations borne of hope and fantasy. By all accounts, Eli has been the best Qb in camp this summer and, even when comparing him to himself of last year, looks significantly better. As an investor, I would want my sunk money to be best used to produce the best product. Seems like that aligns pretty well with fantastical theories of Mara's directives.
Typical nonsense from esiason  
Torrag : 8/19/2019 12:03 pm : link
Gee, let me read between the lines something that wasn't intended or more accurately not there at all.

Pats comment taken in context included the fact that he had been saying the same thing from the beginning, with the insinuation that the media had either ignored or misconstrued his comments.

Sadly this BS is the norm these days and not only for 'sports journalists' but nearly everyone in the media in any capacity.
RE: Oh FFS  
Racer : 8/19/2019 12:23 pm : link
In comment 14535668 GiantsRage2007 said:
Quote:
Now it isn't what people say, it's how they say it, or what they implied? Good God.... when does the season start?


What, the quality of posts improves during the regular season??
So Gio and Giants38 have chimed in...  
JCin332 : 8/19/2019 12:25 pm : link
I won't believe a word of it till bw confirms...
RE: Nobody  
TMS : 8/19/2019 12:42 pm : link
In comment 14535727 Pete in MD said:
Quote:
who witnessed or listened to a recording of that Q&A with Shurmur would have taken his comment as a veiled complaint about Mara telling him who start at QB. He was trying to be funny or cheeky. It was basically saying, "Eli is the starter, I keep saying it, Dave Gettleman keeps saying it, even the owner said it the other day."
. Agree with this thought. Think Shurmur can't seem to form a straight forward reply to this implication from the NY media. He should heve been ready with a definitive answer that shuts them up once and for all and stop trying to be witty or cute. Does not handle the press well at all. They will keep asking till he does that. They are all shit stirrers looking for controversy. End it.
people who watch superhero movies  
I Love Clams Casino : 8/19/2019 12:45 pm : link
believe that Shurmur is handcuffed by Mara

people who hate superhero movies think it's total BS.

I am so right about this
RE: people who watch superhero movies  
bigbluehoya : 8/19/2019 12:47 pm : link
In comment 14535908 I Love Clams Casino said:
Quote:
believe that Shurmur is handcuffed by Mara

people who hate superhero movies think it's total BS.

I am so right about this


I may be an outlier to your thesis. I don't like superhero movies, and I think Mara certainly weighs on the QB decision-making of the last couple seasons through the present.
Without  
lax counsel : 8/19/2019 12:50 pm : link
Getting involved in the Mara/Eli debate, the only way I can see this season as a failure is if the Giants are not a playoff team and DJ has not obtained significant experience. If the Giants walk into 2020 without a good sense of what DJ actually is, 2019 will have been a lost season (of course this assumes no playoffs).

If the Giants are 3-5 halfway through, there has to be a realistic discussion of moving toward DJ, let him have his growing pains and work through his struggles. Ultimately, if the Giants end up 6-10 and we leave 2019 with an of 2004 feeling (i.e., Eli leads the game winning drive against Dallas), I think the season will have been at least a moderate success and the arrow is pointing up.
Didn't we have this debate already?  
jcn56 : 8/19/2019 12:53 pm : link
Isn't Gio a little late to the game at this point?
RE: Didn't we have this debate already?  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 8/19/2019 1:00 pm : link
In comment 14535925 jcn56 said:
Quote:
Isn't Gio a little late to the game at this point?

Must be ripping off bbi for talking points. I expect a convoluted rambling on Redskins name and gun control next.
....  
Jay on the Island : 8/19/2019 1:00 pm : link
If Shurmur wanted to start Jones over Eli he would discuss it with Gettleman before Mara. If Gettleman agreed that was the right decision and Mara then objected and told them no does anyone honestly believe that Gettleman would just accept that?

Gettleman was fired from Carolina because h3 discussed moving on from a couple of Richardson's two favorite players. They fought and it ultimately lead to Gettleman's dismissal.
It seems to me its meant to show alignment:  
wigs in nyc : 8/19/2019 1:03 pm : link
"The entire organization backs Eli as the starter," rather than passing the buck as Gio implies.
RE: ....  
bigbluehoya : 8/19/2019 1:23 pm : link
In comment 14535940 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
If Shurmur wanted to start Jones over Eli he would discuss it with Gettleman before Mara. If Gettleman agreed that was the right decision and Mara then objected and told them no does anyone honestly believe that Gettleman would just accept that?

Gettleman was fired from Carolina because h3 discussed moving on from a couple of Richardson's two favorite players. They fought and it ultimately lead to Gettleman's dismissal.


One way or another, the three of them (at a minimum) came to the decision in the offseason that Eli was the starting quarterback to begin 2019 (we may all debate who wanted what within that process, and realistically will probably never know). But, in making the decision, they likely established that regardless of the outcome of the draft, there wouldn't be any change to that decision until the season was a few games underway, at least.

It would be surprising if the offseason decisions were made in such a fashion (in terms of the communication between owner/GM/coach) that Shurmur felt like it was even an option at this stage to propose that Eli not be the starter Week 1.

So the whole hypothetical of "Shurmur walks into DG's office today..." seems far-fetched.

I say this as someone who felt the best course of action was to move on from Eli in the offseason (or sooner...) -- if they chose to start Jones week 1 right now, it would really call into question what they hell they are doing in terms of the way they make decisions as an organization.
I already commented that I think PS, DG and Mara are all in synch ...  
Spider56 : 8/19/2019 1:55 pm : link
and Iíll add that no good coach ever wants to start a rookie QB from the get go ... they do it because the talent gap is obvious and the upside outweighs the downside risk ... this is definitely not the case for the Giants right now. Eli is proven and looks VG in camp ... only a fool would want to start DJ right now.
its just unbelievable  
Giants : 8/19/2019 2:22 pm : link
How some people still do not get its all about ratings. The media will try to read into any quote and take it and run with it. These people are like herds of sheep buying into anything they say
Why wouldn't Shurmur...  
bw in dc : 8/19/2019 2:35 pm : link
want to start Jones? Jones is clearly the better prototype to run PS's offense. Having Eli limits the playbook because Eli is 38 and a mediocre athlete on a good day. Jones, who I'm not sold on yet, is younger, clearly a better athlete, and has the capacity to make off-schedule plays.

As for Mara, well, I have absolutely no doubt the delegations of authority at Jints Central precludes Shurmur from making ANY final decisions on Eli without Mara's signature.
RE: What a load of horse shit  
micky : 8/19/2019 2:37 pm : link
In comment 14535680 Jints in Carolina said:
Quote:
If Shurmur wants to start Jones, he will.


He would and it'd eventually go through once he convinced Mara. If one doesn't think Mara has ties to the Mannings, then one is blindly fooled. But, if schurmur wanted to really start Jones, he would..but unlike other situations, he'd really have to sell Mara
Lol  
dep026 : 8/19/2019 2:39 pm : link
BBI has lost its collective minds.
This is so stupid....the best rookie season of a QB came last year  
Zeke's Alibi : 8/19/2019 2:40 pm : link
from Mayfield, and if you look at as whole, it was maybe at best slightly above average QB play. Eli with protection is going to give you average QB play at least, it is when he doesn't have protection he looks awful because of his atrocious mobility at this point, anyone arguing otherwise is offbase. To think Daniel Jones is going to come in week 1 of the regular season and give you the best rookie season ever is gotta be drinking the koolaid pretty hard and delusional.
RE: Why wouldn't Shurmur...  
Bill L : 8/19/2019 2:51 pm : link
In comment 14536040 bw in dc said:
Quote:
want to start Jones? Jones is clearly the better prototype to run PS's offense. Having Eli limits the playbook because Eli is 38 and a mediocre athlete on a good day. Jones, who I'm not sold on yet, is younger, clearly a better athlete, and has the capacity to make off-schedule plays.

As for Mara, well, I have absolutely no doubt the delegations of authority at Jints Central precludes Shurmur from making ANY final decisions on Eli without Mara's signature.

If only PS could get them to allow DJ to run his offense against something other than a defense.
DG  
Lines of Scrimmage : 8/19/2019 3:03 pm : link
said a little while back regarding Jones that it will be "clear" to everyone when he starts. Coaches, the team, fans, staff etc. will know if it gets to that point.

Personally, I think Eli will perform well with this line and the team as a whole is going to challenge for the East. If they fall out of contention, then Jones will be inserted imo.
This whole Mara calls the shots narrative  
joeinpa : 8/19/2019 8:05 pm : link
Has been around for a while now. It s almost taken on the life of a ďconspiracy theoryĒ. As in the case with most people and their conspiracy theory, they are convicted in their belief to the pt of referring to their theory as fact when making an argument that is supported by their theory.

Having seen Wellington allow his beloved Phill Simms released and son John allowing Eli to be benched for Geno Smith, should be enough evidence to make one at least consider that their ďMara calls the shotsĒ narrative might not be true; but it wonít, nothing will.

RE: Why wouldn't Shurmur...  
Britt in VA : 8/19/2019 8:15 pm : link
In comment 14536040 bw in dc said:
Quote:
want to start Jones? Jones is clearly the better prototype to run PS's offense. Having Eli limits the playbook because Eli is 38 and a mediocre athlete on a good day. Jones, who I'm not sold on yet, is younger, clearly a better athlete, and has the capacity to make off-schedule plays.

As for Mara, well, I have absolutely no doubt the delegations of authority at Jints Central precludes Shurmur from making ANY final decisions on Eli without Mara's signature.


Wait a second... Having a 15 year NFL veteran QB who has already had a year in the system is going to limit the playbook vs. a rookie QB who has only had the playbook in his hands for a couple of months, not to mention never taking a snap vs. an NFL caliber defense?
Run option  
Sneakers O'toole : 8/19/2019 8:17 pm : link
is off the table with Eli, it's a fair point.
Of course  
Sneakers O'toole : 8/19/2019 8:18 pm : link
Eli's experience is also a fair point.
RE: NFW ... the quote is out of context ...  
section125 : 8/19/2019 8:43 pm : link
In comment 14535658 Spider56 said:
Quote:
PS was getting frustrated with the dumbass media asking him the same shit over and over ... so he meant even if you donít believe me, the owner just said It (Manningís the starter) too. Itís with good reason that journalists are often called muckrakers.


Thank you. If the cannot report a story, they make on up...
It is one thing to read/hear stupid shit from radio hosts..  
EricJ : 8/19/2019 11:20 pm : link
because they are looking for clicks and attention. However, to see the people here buy into it is really not surprising.

Like FMiC said... Mara wanted Eli benched and now he insists that he start? Really?

If Mara told Shurmur that he wanted Eli to start, that would be the best scenario for Shurmur. He gets an out of jail free card because the owner made that decision. It also takes the tough decision away from Shurmur.

Did any of you think that "IF" Mara said something like that it would be to help suppress the QB controversy and make it easier for Shurmur?

The idea that the head coach wants to start a rookie QB in week 1 even though the kid has played only about one half of pre season football and has not seen a #1 defense yet is just ridiculous.

People here are getting played every day... and have no idea that it is happening.
RE: RE: Why wouldn't Shurmur...  
bw in dc : 8/19/2019 11:51 pm : link
In comment 14536284 Britt in VA said:
Quote:

Wait a second... Having a 15 year NFL veteran QB who has already had a year in the system is going to limit the playbook vs. a rookie QB who has only had the playbook in his hands for a couple of months, not to mention never taking a snap vs. an NFL caliber defense?


Correct. Being a year in the system doesnít change the fact that Eli canít perform the parts that require mobility. Shurmur prefers the dual threat QB, especially the QB with the ability to make impromptu plays.

Eli needs many elements in the offense to be clicking to be successful. On paper, Jones looks to not require all of those prerequisites.
...  
christian : 8/20/2019 12:33 am : link
Given the gnashing of teeth, locker room tears, and jobs lost the last time a coach thought about playing a quarterback ahead of Manning, I find it quite comical anyone thinks Shurmur wouldn't confer with ownership and management when it comes up again.

Imagine you're Pat and you guess wrong on the "What dopey plan does John Mara have this time for Manning" quiz.
RE: RE: RE: Why wouldn't Shurmur...  
Bill L : 8/20/2019 12:05 pm : link
In comment 14536395 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14536284 Britt in VA said:


Quote:



Wait a second... Having a 15 year NFL veteran QB who has already had a year in the system is going to limit the playbook vs. a rookie QB who has only had the playbook in his hands for a couple of months, not to mention never taking a snap vs. an NFL caliber defense?



Correct. Being a year in the system doesnít change the fact that Eli canít perform the parts that require mobility. Shurmur prefers the dual threat QB, especially the QB with the ability to make impromptu plays.

Eli needs many elements in the offense to be clicking to be successful. On paper, Jones looks to not require all of those prerequisites.
You don't consider beaing able to read a defense to be a prerequisite?
RE: RE: RE: Why wouldn't Shurmur...  
Britt in VA : 8/20/2019 1:04 pm : link
In comment 14536395 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14536284 Britt in VA said:


Quote:



Wait a second... Having a 15 year NFL veteran QB who has already had a year in the system is going to limit the playbook vs. a rookie QB who has only had the playbook in his hands for a couple of months, not to mention never taking a snap vs. an NFL caliber defense?



Correct. Being a year in the system doesnít change the fact that Eli canít perform the parts that require mobility. Shurmur prefers the dual threat QB, especially the QB with the ability to make impromptu plays.

Eli needs many elements in the offense to be clicking to be successful. On paper, Jones looks to not require all of those prerequisites.


Are we talking designed run/option type plays here? Because if not, the ability to run or not doesn't "open up or limit the playbook". Seems to me you're mistaking the ability to extend plays with the ability/knowledge to diagnose the defense and execute plays.
New to the board  
Prude : 8/21/2019 5:54 am : link
But this situation has been driving me crazy. You have to do a bit of reading between the lines but to me it's obvious Mara has dictated that Eli is the starter.

-he declared Eli the starter last week
-he said it's Shurmur's decision but those are hollow words when the last hc was fired midseason after benching Eli
-after he said it was Shurmur's decision he said that he wants to be notified beforehand(why?)
-during spring camp Shurmur insinuated best man plays and since then has done everything he can to backtrack and declare Eli the starter
-has never once said Eli gives the team the best chance to win, which is a boilerplate soundbyte when you want the media to drop a qb controversy
-DJ hasn't had a single snap with the 1's in camp, Eli hasn't even taken a play off for a veteran break or even a water break. Really unusual for a 38 year old guy. Really unusual to not get the backup familiar with the starters. It all reeks of avoiding a "qb controversay" at all costs


Jones has the tools run Shurmur's offense better than Eli does and is not just looking competent, but exceptional. This is not a normal situation. Mara invites the Manning family into the owner's booth every week and said the decision to move on from Eli will be 'tough and emotional'. We all love Eli but deciding who to start should be cold and calculated, just like the other 89 players on the roster. I am sure there's plenty of guys that are going to get cut in 2 weeks that gave their all, are good people and have inspiring back stories but just aren't good enough to make the 53.

It's debatable at this point whether we win more games with Eli than Jones this year but DJ is the future of this team. He is going to make rookie mistakes in his first few games whether they come in 2019 or in 2020. There' s not a reasonable expectation of our squad winning a SB this year but next year we have 70 million dollars to spend after 2 or 3 really solid drafts. There is a legit chance at a deep run next year but instead you are taking a 3 year rebuild and making it a 4 year rebuild. There is no upside. I don't want to go into that season with a qb that's learning the ropes. I can't imagine that Shurmur wants to either when his job is almost certainly on the line. Mara should, and probably will, give Eli a job inside the organization when he hangs it up but he needs to let the coach make the decisions regarding who starts and who plays. The NYG has had success because ownership has traditionally taken a hands-off approach to these situations. Really don't want to see this team run like the Knicks and the Redskins or the Cowboys because those teams don't win
Ummm, no  
Rong5611 : 8/21/2019 6:28 am : link
I think there is consensus on the plan throughout all the levels of the organization - Eli starts the season. DJ will play when it is time for him to play. I don't think this is a dictate from Mara. He would have to be in the loop on Eli's status as he is an icon of the franchise.

Gio is clearly trying to stir the pot.

I think it is a decent plan.

Barring a miraculous run by Eli, Jones likely starts mid-season against the Cardinals. He needs to play.

But, if Eli makes a playoff run, which is unlikely, it would be a great thing to see. How could they bench him if the team is winning and he's playing well? Wouldn't make any sense.

Its a win-win for the Giants.

--- Either Eli takes them on a magical run...

--- Or, DJ gets playing time and the team gets ready for 2020, a big year given the amount of cap they have.

Both will keep the fans engaged with the team.
I'm glad I'm not the only one  
ron mexico : 8/21/2019 7:12 am : link
Who finds this even the teeny bit odd.

-DJ hasn't had a single snap with the 1's in camp, Eli hasn't even taken a play off for a veteran break or even a water break. Really unusual for a 38 year old guy. Really unusual to not get the backup familiar with the starters. It all reeks of avoiding a "qb controversay" at all costs
RE: Ummm, no  
Prude : 8/21/2019 8:03 am : link
In comment 14537712 Rong5611 said:
Quote:
I think there is consensus on the plan throughout all the levels of the organization - Eli starts the season. DJ will play when it is time for him to play. I don't think this is a dictate from Mara. He would have to be in the loop on Eli's status as he is an icon of the franchise.

Gio is clearly trying to stir the pot.

I think it is a decent plan.

Barring a miraculous run by Eli, Jones likely starts mid-season against the Cardinals. He needs to play.

But, if Eli makes a playoff run, which is unlikely, it would be a great thing to see. How could they bench him if the team is winning and he's playing well? Wouldn't make any sense.

Its a win-win for the Giants.

--- Either Eli takes them on a magical run...

--- Or, DJ gets playing time and the team gets ready for 2020, a big year given the amount of cap they have.

Both will keep the fans engaged with the team.


Or you just evaluate both quarterbacks equally and the best man plays. What could go wrong there from a team perspective?
RE: I'm glad I'm not the only one  
Prude : 8/21/2019 8:11 am : link
In comment 14537718 ron mexico said:
Quote:
Who finds this even the teeny bit odd.

-DJ hasn't had a single snap with the 1's in camp, Eli hasn't even taken a play off for a veteran break or even a water break. Really unusual for a 38 year old guy. Really unusual to not get the backup familiar with the starters. It all reeks of avoiding a "qb controversay" at all costs


It's absolutely odd. You have seen 4th,5th,6th,7th rounders and UDFAs getting limited snaps with the 1s but your #6 overall pick has never spelled a 38 year old qb? Something stinks there, and when the owner says "i hope Daniel Jones doesn't play all season" I definitely believe him.
RE: I'm glad I'm not the only one  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/21/2019 8:18 am : link
In comment 14537718 ron mexico said:
Quote:
Who finds this even the teeny bit odd.

-DJ hasn't had a single snap with the 1's in camp, Eli hasn't even taken a play off for a veteran break or even a water break. Really unusual for a 38 year old guy. Really unusual to not get the backup familiar with the starters. It all reeks of avoiding a "qb controversay" at all costs


I guess it is only odd if you don't understand the way camp works. Most team practices are just like this. The #1 QB gets his reps with the starters. They don't give the #2 guy reps sprinkled in. They don't take individual water breaks.

It really is like people actively look for ways to feed a conspiracy and they apparently don't mind looking ignorant when it comes to practice protocol while espousing such thoughts.
RE: RE: I'm glad I'm not the only one  
Prude : 8/21/2019 8:34 am : link
In comment 14537751 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
In comment 14537718 ron mexico said:


Quote:


Who finds this even the teeny bit odd.

-DJ hasn't had a single snap with the 1's in camp, Eli hasn't even taken a play off for a veteran break or even a water break. Really unusual for a 38 year old guy. Really unusual to not get the backup familiar with the starters. It all reeks of avoiding a "qb controversay" at all costs



I guess it is only odd if you don't understand the way camp works. Most team practices are just like this. The #1 QB gets his reps with the starters. They don't give the #2 guy reps sprinkled in. They don't take individual water breaks.

It really is like people actively look for ways to feed a conspiracy and they apparently don't mind looking ignorant when it comes to practice protocol while espousing such thoughts.


Except there have been 2nd and 3rd teamers that have taken reps with the 1s at every position group besides qb. Mostly for older guys that wanted and/or needed a break. And none of them are as old as Eli and none of the fill ins were drafted as high as Jones. So despite your haughty tone you are absolutely full of shit.
Did Patrick Mahomes take snaps with the 1st team in his first camp?  
Britt in VA : 8/21/2019 8:38 am : link
Serious question, because I genuinely don't know.
LOL...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/21/2019 8:39 am : link
I'm talking about the QB position.

You show me the camps around the league where the #1 QB is splitting reps with the #2 QB. If there is a clear starter, they don't. Again - if you've followed the sport, this is common protocol. Hell, even in Carolina, Cam Newton is coming off of a shoulder injury and he's taking the practice reps and not the backup.

Like I said above, it seems you really don't give a fuck if you sound like you have no clue what goes on in practices, but are damn sure going to rail against it anyways!
RE: RE: I'm glad I'm not the only one  
ron mexico : 8/21/2019 8:41 am : link
In comment 14537751 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
In comment 14537718 ron mexico said:


Quote:


Who finds this even the teeny bit odd.

-DJ hasn't had a single snap with the 1's in camp, Eli hasn't even taken a play off for a veteran break or even a water break. Really unusual for a 38 year old guy. Really unusual to not get the backup familiar with the starters. It all reeks of avoiding a "qb controversay" at all costs



I guess it is only odd if you don't understand the way camp works. Most team practices are just like this. The #1 QB gets his reps with the starters. They don't give the #2 guy reps sprinkled in. They don't take individual water breaks.

It really is like people actively look for ways to feed a conspiracy and they apparently don't mind looking ignorant when it comes to practice protocol while espousing such thoughts.


Both Lauletta and Webb got reps with the 1s last year.

Are you saying its normal for a vet of Eli's stature to take 100.000% of the reps?

Brees Took a day off

https://wwl.radio.com/blogs/steve-geller/emmanuel-butler-back-saints-practice-drew-brees-gets-day

Brady took a day off

https://www.wcvb.com/article/tom-brady-gets-day-off-at-patriots-training-camp-practice/28519089

Big Ben took a day off
https://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2019/7/28/8934068/ben-roethlisberger-maurkice-pouncey-get-day-off-the-first-practice-in-pads-training-camp-mike-tomlin

You still want to talk about not understanding practice protocol?



Ouch  
Prude : 8/21/2019 8:48 am : link
That's gonna sting
It's been unanimous; every single observer has reported that Eli  
Bill L : 8/21/2019 8:49 am : link
has been the best QB in camp this summer. And not be a small margin. Everything else in your post re: Mara/Shurmer is trash and not worth pointing our the falsehoods for the um[pteempth time.
C'mon man..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/21/2019 8:51 am : link
I'm saying it isn't odd for the #1 QB to get the reps. There's a leap being made that Eli taking all the reps is something the owner is forcing as if it is being done for appearances only.

And I even think you guys are wrong. I think in some of the early practices, Tanney had a few reps.

It is common to see the #1 QB get the reps when he's on the field. It isn't common to have the #1 guy go off for a water break and usher the #2 guy in. You are more apt to see an entire practice with him off.

But what you guys are insinuating is that because Eli isn't leaving the field that Jones is being stifled by Mara.

You don't find that to be a pretty stupid conclusion?
They don't.  
Britt in VA : 8/21/2019 8:53 am : link
.
RE: Ouch  
ron mexico : 8/21/2019 8:54 am : link
In comment 14537817 Prude said:
Quote:
That's gonna sting


dupe accusations coming in 3....2.....1....
You're being too rigid....  
Britt in VA : 8/21/2019 8:56 am : link
of course there are going to be instances for whatever reason. Injury, day off, etc....

Jones is likely going to get the start in the final preseason game when Eli sits. That will be time with the ones. And that is pretty standard.

Don't cherry pick, what Fatman is saying is pretty common. Whomever is deemed the starting QB for week 1 is going to get the majority of training camp.

Patrick Mahomes sat on the bench for an entire year behind Alex Smith.
RE: RE: Ouch  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/21/2019 8:57 am : link
In comment 14537827 ron mexico said:
Quote:
In comment 14537817 Prude said:


Quote:


That's gonna sting



dupe accusations coming in 3....2.....1....


LOL. Well, it is clear you are thinking it, but if guessing you're going to throw shade on the poster who actually calls him out.

You literally take the least popular side even when you know it is wrong.
RE: C'mon man..  
Prude : 8/21/2019 8:57 am : link
In comment 14537821 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
I'm saying it isn't odd for the #1 QB to get the reps. There's a leap being made that Eli taking all the reps is something the owner is forcing as if it is being done for appearances only.

And I even think you guys are wrong. I think in some of the early practices, Tanney had a few reps.

It is common to see the #1 QB get the reps when he's on the field. It isn't common to have the #1 guy go off for a water break and usher the #2 guy in. You are more apt to see an entire practice with him off.

But what you guys are insinuating is that because Eli isn't leaving the field that Jones is being stifled by Mara.

You don't find that to be a pretty stupid conclusion?


No.
I don't think it's crazy at all to think  
bigbluehoya : 8/21/2019 8:58 am : link
that Mara is a big part of the reason why Eli is the starting QB this season..

But to suggest that Mara is intervening to limit Jones' reps in practice or the day-to-day on-goings of the team is a bridge too far. Way too far. But that's just me.
So Prude..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/21/2019 8:59 am : link
let's bottom line this.

Do you believe Mara has issued a directive that Jones is not to get snaps with the 1's.

Put the cards on the table, Chief.
RE: I don't think it's crazy at all to think  
Bill L : 8/21/2019 9:00 am : link
In comment 14537838 bigbluehoya said:
Quote:
that Mara is a big part of the reason why Eli is the starting QB this season..

But to suggest that Mara is intervening to limit Jones' reps in practice or the day-to-day on-goings of the team is a bridge too far. Way too far. But that's just me.


No offense, but personally, I believe the whole Mara/Eli starting thing is the main reason that Reynolds and Alcoa's stock prices are up.
Couple points  
mittenedman : 8/21/2019 9:03 am : link
*It's very interesting Eli hasn't been given a "veterans day off" - IIRC (and I apologize if I'm misremembering) didn't Eli have a few "rest" days last camp?

*Who the QB of the Giants is is a Mara decision, and he made that clear during the McAdoo fiasco. He actually used those exact words. Both John and Chris are heavily involved and have final say. It is really no different than many other corporations - it's Gettleman and Shurmur's job to carry out the wishes of the CEO, and take the brunt of all decisions. In this way, no different than what's happening at Alex & Ani, BlackRock or any other large corporation. The owner is shielded and stays above the fray even though they are completely in charge.

They will just never say it. Only in regards to the QB - Mara did.
RE: C'mon man..  
ron mexico : 8/21/2019 9:04 am : link
In comment 14537821 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
I'm saying it isn't odd for the #1 QB to get the reps. There's a leap being made that Eli taking all the reps is something the owner is forcing as if it is being done for appearances only.

And I even think you guys are wrong. I think in some of the early practices, Tanney had a few reps.

It is common to see the #1 QB get the reps when he's on the field. It isn't common to have the #1 guy go off for a water break and usher the #2 guy in. You are more apt to see an entire practice with him off.

But what you guys are insinuating is that because Eli isn't leaving the field that Jones is being stifled by Mara.

You don't find that to be a pretty stupid conclusion?


Its been reported that Eli has taken 100% of the reps.

Stop latching on to one phrase like water break and jumping to extreme conclusions on my behalf.

My stance is nothing more than what I wrote. I find it odd that our vet QB hasn't taken 1 rep off and that your #6 pick, who is showing he belongs, hasn't gotten 1 session in.

I'm not insinuating some Mara led conspiracy


RE: You're being too rigid....  
Prude : 8/21/2019 9:08 am : link
In comment 14537832 Britt in VA said:
Quote:


Don't cherry pick, what Fatman is saying is pretty common. Whomever is deemed the starting QB for week 1 is going to get the majority of training camp.



There's a vast difference between 'majority' and 100%. I fully expected Eli to get the majority of reps and didn't envision a 50/50 qb competition. But i also didn't imagine DJ getting exactly zero snaps and the owner saying that he hopes out top draft pick doesn't see the field. He didn't have to say that, it is as simple as saying "having 2 top caliber quarterbacks is a good problem to have". He should've been rehearsing that answer for months. And everything the QB controversy co. Es up Shurmur looks like someone put a gun to his head.

If you think Eli is the best QB you should welcome a challenge instead of being put in a corner where you have to defend a guy who hasn't had to prove anything. You can say it's only preseason but DJ looks better than Eli has in 5 years, or maybe ever, there is not reason to get defensive if you want whats best for the team.
John mara  
TrueBlue56 : 8/21/2019 9:08 am : link
Was the owner when reese / mcadoo was here and still the owner with gettleman and shurmur and yet we see two totally different ways the team is run especially with personnel. Dave gettleman was fired from the Panthers because he wouldn't bow to an owner who wanted to dictate personnel decisions to him and not allow gettleman to do his job.

Yet, somehow gettleman is going to allow John mara dictate who plays, when they play and so on and so forth and gettleman is just going to bow.

I heard time and time again how it would be the same as it was and nothing was going to change with the hiring gettleman. Well, we have all seen that wasn't the case as gettleman has got rid of big name players like Beckham, snacks, Collins and Vernon, so now we get this.

Despite all of the evidence to the contrary, we still have people that will pound their fists that this is all John mara
RE: RE: You're being too rigid....  
Prude : 8/21/2019 9:10 am : link
*every time the qb controversy comes up*
RE: RE: I don't think it's crazy at all to think  
bigbluehoya : 8/21/2019 9:10 am : link
In comment 14537843 Bill L said:
Quote:
In comment 14537838 bigbluehoya said:


Quote:


that Mara is a big part of the reason why Eli is the starting QB this season..

But to suggest that Mara is intervening to limit Jones' reps in practice or the day-to-day on-goings of the team is a bridge too far. Way too far. But that's just me.



No offense, but personally, I believe the whole Mara/Eli starting thing is the main reason that Reynolds and Alcoa's stock prices are up.


Everyone knows where you stand on it, boss. Eli deserves everything and anyone who says otherwise is crazy. Don't waste the keystrokes.
RE: RE: C'mon man..  
Bill L : 8/21/2019 9:10 am : link
In comment 14537852 ron mexico said:
Quote:
In comment 14537821 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


I'm saying it isn't odd for the #1 QB to get the reps. There's a leap being made that Eli taking all the reps is something the owner is forcing as if it is being done for appearances only.

And I even think you guys are wrong. I think in some of the early practices, Tanney had a few reps.

It is common to see the #1 QB get the reps when he's on the field. It isn't common to have the #1 guy go off for a water break and usher the #2 guy in. You are more apt to see an entire practice with him off.

But what you guys are insinuating is that because Eli isn't leaving the field that Jones is being stifled by Mara.

You don't find that to be a pretty stupid conclusion?



Its been reported that Eli has taken 100% of the reps.

Stop latching on to one phrase like water break and jumping to extreme conclusions on my behalf.

My stance is nothing more than what I wrote. I find it odd that our vet QB hasn't taken 1 rep off and that your #6 pick, who is showing he belongs, hasn't gotten 1 session in.

I'm not insinuating some Mara led conspiracy



Eli is the 2019 #1 QB. Period. It's no more for Jones to take snaps with the first team offense than it is Tanney or Lauletta. And, generally you're not seeing the #1 or #2 QB take snaps with the #2 and #1 offenses, respectively. WHat you usually see id bob-QB #2 gys rotating in and out of the #1 offense, giving the impression that it's the QB's who are switching. Besides, Jones has clearly gotten snaps with the #1 offense in games, which one would assume both counts and is relevant.

Fantasizing something out of nothing seems to be the BBI M.O. this year. Hopefully, it won't carry forward into September but I am skeptical about that.
So Prude..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/21/2019 9:10 am : link
did Mara issue a directive that Jones not get any snaps?

It is a fairly simple question to answer.
RE: RE: RE: I don't think it's crazy at all to think  
Bill L : 8/21/2019 9:13 am : link
In comment 14537863 bigbluehoya said:
Quote:
In comment 14537843 Bill L said:


Quote:


In comment 14537838 bigbluehoya said:


Quote:


that Mara is a big part of the reason why Eli is the starting QB this season..

But to suggest that Mara is intervening to limit Jones' reps in practice or the day-to-day on-goings of the team is a bridge too far. Way too far. But that's just me.



No offense, but personally, I believe the whole Mara/Eli starting thing is the main reason that Reynolds and Alcoa's stock prices are up.



Everyone knows where you stand on it, boss. Eli deserves everything and anyone who says otherwise is crazy. Don't waste the keystrokes.


I don't know what he deserves. I do know that every report has him playing as well or better than he ever has and every report has him as the clear best QB in camp. But this really has nothing to do with Eli doing anything; it has to do with Mara. It's completely a conspiratorial fantasy to say he's dictating anything. In fact, last week, he explicitly said that it was SHurmer's call and only SHurmer's call. All he asked for was to be told about it instead of having to read it in the papers. As an owner, I think that should be his prerogative.
RE: So Prude..  
ron mexico : 8/21/2019 9:14 am : link
In comment 14537866 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
did Mara issue a directive that Jones not get any snaps?

It is a fairly simple question to answer.


I'll answer. No Mara didn't order a directive that Jones shouldn't get any snaps

Now your turn.
Is it odd that Jones hasn't gotten 1 snap at this point in camp?

Simple yes or no will suffice
No.  
Bill L : 8/21/2019 9:15 am : link
Neither has Lauletta, btw
No..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/21/2019 9:16 am : link
it isn't odd. And the Giants aren't the only place where this is happening.

I'll also add that Jones has had snaps with the 1's in both preseason games.

And that isn't odd either.
RE: No.  
ron mexico : 8/21/2019 9:17 am : link
In comment 14537875 Bill L said:
Quote:
Neither has Lauletta, btw


Lauletta got first team practice reps last year
did I say he dictated anything?  
bigbluehoya : 8/21/2019 9:20 am : link
I said I believe the owner was involved in the decision making process around the QB. That's tinfoil hat stuff to you, and that's fine. You take Mara at his word, and see no reason why he'd say what he said even if it wasn't 100% true. Which is also fine.

The real truth is - My comment was made as a disclaimer to further emphasize how crazy it is to suggest that Mara is intervening on Jones' participation level in practice. And yet it somehow still itched your Eli-related sensitivities to the point where you needed to take the conversation on a tangent.
RE: RE: No.  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/21/2019 9:21 am : link
In comment 14537878 ron mexico said:
Quote:
In comment 14537875 Bill L said:


Quote:


Neither has Lauletta, btw



Lauletta got first team practice reps last year


I'm not sure what this is supposed to show. That it was common for Eli to be spelled but this year he's stubbornly taking all the reps. That something nefarious is underfoot keeping Jones from playing with the ones? Two years ago, Webb got hardly any reps with the 1's or 2's which is why he wasn't available to start when eli was benched, but I don't think any other QB was getting reps in that camp either.

In a year when Mara supposedly wanted Eli benched.....
RE: John mara  
Prude : 8/21/2019 9:21 am : link
In comment 14537858 TrueBlue56 said:
Quote:
Was the owner when reese / mcadoo was here and still the owner with gettleman and shurmur and yet we see two totally different ways the team is run especially with personnel. Dave gettleman was fired from the Panthers because he wouldn't bow to an owner who wanted to dictate personnel decisions to him and not allow gettleman to do his job.

Yet, somehow gettleman is going to allow John mara dictate who plays, when they play and so on and so forth and gettleman is just going to bow.

I heard time and time again how it would be the same as it was and nothing was going to change with the hiring gettleman. Well, we have all seen that wasn't the case as gettleman has got rid of big name players like Beckham, snacks, Collins and Vernon, so now we get this.

Despite all of the evidence to the contrary, we still have people that will pound their fists that this is all John mara


He was asked about the QB situation and he said 'the owner' twice. He didn't speak to eith player's strengths or weaknesses, he said 'he' s the owner.... We are on the same page...you heard if from the owner'

It's super super easy to say that Eli is playing lights-out football. It's super super easy to say Jones is coming along nicely but you can't expect him to beat out a 15 year vet and 2x superbowl MVP. It's super easy to say that he is going to play the best man that gives him the best chance to win.

He goes out of his way to make sure he doesn't say any of tjose things. He only says 'Eli is the starter, you heard it from the owner'.

It's not a conspiracy theory is just obvious to anyone that has ever had to defer to a boss and say 'it is what it is, if that' s what they want I have to do it'.
Lamar Jackson  
ron mexico : 8/21/2019 9:21 am : link
Got first team reps in place of Flacco last year with Balt

Doesn't sound like a day off situation either.
Link - ( New Window )
You know..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/21/2019 9:23 am : link
the fact that Jackson getting reps was worthy of an article should show to you that it isn't a very common occurrence.
RE: RE: RE: No.  
ron mexico : 8/21/2019 9:24 am : link
In comment 14537883 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
In comment 14537878 ron mexico said:


Quote:


In comment 14537875 Bill L said:


Quote:


Neither has Lauletta, btw



Lauletta got first team practice reps last year



I'm not sure what this is supposed to show. That it was common for Eli to be spelled but this year he's stubbornly taking all the reps. That something nefarious is underfoot keeping Jones from playing with the ones? Two years ago, Webb got hardly any reps with the 1's or 2's which is why he wasn't available to start when eli was benched, but I don't think any other QB was getting reps in that camp either.

In a year when Mara supposedly wanted Eli benched.....


who thinks mara wanted eli benched?

we could actually have a decent conversation if you would just stop with accusing the other side of hot takes all the time

Ummm..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/21/2019 9:26 am : link
wasn't the whole flap about Eli getting benched purported to be Mara's idea?

That he told McAdoo to bench him? That isn't what was said here?

And isn't the whole narrative that Eli is to remain the starter purported on the premise that Mara had the benching blow up in his face and now is indebted to the Mannings for life?
RE: RE: John mara  
Bill L : 8/21/2019 9:27 am : link
In comment 14537884 Prude said:
Quote:
In comment 14537858 TrueBlue56 said:


Quote:


Was the owner when reese / mcadoo was here and still the owner with gettleman and shurmur and yet we see two totally different ways the team is run especially with personnel. Dave gettleman was fired from the Panthers because he wouldn't bow to an owner who wanted to dictate personnel decisions to him and not allow gettleman to do his job.

Yet, somehow gettleman is going to allow John mara dictate who plays, when they play and so on and so forth and gettleman is just going to bow.

I heard time and time again how it would be the same as it was and nothing was going to change with the hiring gettleman. Well, we have all seen that wasn't the case as gettleman has got rid of big name players like Beckham, snacks, Collins and Vernon, so now we get this.

Despite all of the evidence to the contrary, we still have people that will pound their fists that this is all John mara



He was asked about the QB situation and he said 'the owner' twice. He didn't speak to eith player's strengths or weaknesses, he said 'he' s the owner.... We are on the same page...you heard if from the owner'

It's super super easy to say that Eli is playing lights-out football. It's super super easy to say Jones is coming along nicely but you can't expect him to beat out a 15 year vet and 2x superbowl MVP. It's super easy to say that he is going to play the best man that gives him the best chance to win.

He goes out of his way to make sure he doesn't say any of tjose things. He only says 'Eli is the starter, you heard it from the owner'.

It's not a conspiracy theory is just obvious to anyone that has ever had to defer to a boss and say 'it is what it is, if that' s what they want I have to do it'.

Way to distort the context of SHurmer's response to a reporter's question. Kudos.
And I..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/21/2019 9:29 am : link
disagree:

Quote:
we could actually have a decent conversation if you would just stop with accusing the other side of hot takes all the time


The latest hot take is actually that Mara is intentionally keeping Jones from getting reps. You know "Prude" is actually holding this as a position.
Lets try this from another angle  
ron mexico : 8/21/2019 9:30 am : link
would you like to see Jones get some practice reps with the 1s before the season starts?

Or is that completely unimportant to you?

RE: RE: RE: I'm glad I'm not the only one  
Section331 : 8/21/2019 9:32 am : link
In comment 14537785 Prude said:
Quote:

Except there have been 2nd and 3rd teamers that have taken reps with the 1s at every position group besides qb. Mostly for older guys that wanted and/or needed a break. And none of them are as old as Eli and none of the fill ins were drafted as high as Jones. So despite your haughty tone you are absolutely full of shit.


None of them are QB's. Every team operates this way. You can say they shouldn't, that's fine, but using this as proof of some hidden conspiracy is lunacy.
RE: RE: John mara  
TrueBlue56 : 8/21/2019 9:34 am : link
In comment 14537884 Prude said:
Quote:
In comment 14537858 TrueBlue56 said:


Quote:


Was the owner when reese / mcadoo was here and still the owner with gettleman and shurmur and yet we see two totally different ways the team is run especially with personnel. Dave gettleman was fired from the Panthers because he wouldn't bow to an owner who wanted to dictate personnel decisions to him and not allow gettleman to do his job.

Yet, somehow gettleman is going to allow John mara dictate who plays, when they play and so on and so forth and gettleman is just going to bow.

I heard time and time again how it would be the same as it was and nothing was going to change with the hiring gettleman. Well, we have all seen that wasn't the case as gettleman has got rid of big name players like Beckham, snacks, Collins and Vernon, so now we get this.

Despite all of the evidence to the contrary, we still have people that will pound their fists that this is all John mara



He was asked about the QB situation and he said 'the owner' twice. He didn't speak to eith player's strengths or weaknesses, he said 'he' s the owner.... We are on the same page...you heard if from the owner'

It's super super easy to say that Eli is playing lights-out football. It's super super easy to say Jones is coming along nicely but you can't expect him to beat out a 15 year vet and 2x superbowl MVP. It's super easy to say that he is going to play the best man that gives him the best chance to win.

He goes out of his way to make sure he doesn't say any of tjose things. He only says 'Eli is the starter, you heard it from the owner'.

It's not a conspiracy theory is just obvious to anyone that has ever had to defer to a boss and say 'it is what it is, if that' s what they want I have to do it'.


Talk about cherry picking. If you are going to Quote shurmur then quote exactly what he said instead of taking a sentence or two to fit your agenda...

I think Iíve been saying it all along. I just get a sense once in a while that when I answer those questions nobody believes me.
I don't think what Mara is doing is 'nefarious:  
Prude : 8/21/2019 9:35 am : link
I think that he believes Eli deserves a chance to prove that he still has it, and I believe he is trying to avoid a qb controversy at all costs.

I believe he thinks a qb controversy will be detrimental to the team in a ny media market. I disagree personally but I think that's his primary concern. I think he took people aside(not just Shurmur but lots of people) and said "I don't want this summer to turn into a QB controversy"

I think he believes a rookie can not possibly be as good as Eli. I think he believes that time on the bench will benefit Jones. I think he is trying to do the best thing for the team but it is just outdated thinking and marred by emotional ties to the Manning family.

It's not "nefarious" it's just not rational amd not supported by recent history. It has hamstrung the coaching staff and it has influenced the beat reporters whose career is predicated on access to the team and the facilities.

It's not evil, it's just not prudent.
RE: Lets try this from another angle  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/21/2019 9:36 am : link
In comment 14537902 ron mexico said:
Quote:
would you like to see Jones get some practice reps with the 1s before the season starts?

Or is that completely unimportant to you?


I'm ambivalent to it. Like I said - Jones has gotten reps with the 1's in preseason games and in the individual passing drills in practice, he's throwing to all the receivers, so I'm not sure there is an issue. My hope is that he's ready to step in and play, and if the season goes South, he becomes the starter.

Should it be important for him to get reps? Does it delay his development by not getting those reps?
RE: I don't think what Mara is doing is 'nefarious:  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/21/2019 9:37 am : link
In comment 14537911 Prude said:
Quote:
I think that he believes Eli deserves a chance to prove that he still has it, and I believe he is trying to avoid a qb controversy at all costs.

I believe he thinks a qb controversy will be detrimental to the team in a ny media market. I disagree personally but I think that's his primary concern. I think he took people aside(not just Shurmur but lots of people) and said "I don't want this summer to turn into a QB controversy"

I think he believes a rookie can not possibly be as good as Eli. I think he believes that time on the bench will benefit Jones. I think he is trying to do the best thing for the team but it is just outdated thinking and marred by emotional ties to the Manning family.

It's not "nefarious" it's just not rational amd not supported by recent history. It has hamstrung the coaching staff and it has influenced the beat reporters whose career is predicated on access to the team and the facilities.

It's not evil, it's just not prudent.


So do you believe Mara is forcing the coaches to give Eli all the snaps. And if so, why wouldn't that be "nefarious"?
RE: RE: RE: John mara  
Prude : 8/21/2019 9:45 am : link
Quote:
when I answer those questions nobody believes me.


The mopey feeling that 'nobody believes me' usually comes about when you are being deceitful. It's a natural emotional reponse.

When you are being clear and honest and people question your word you tend to get angry or indifferent. You will see a lot of both in this thread
So..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/21/2019 9:49 am : link
is Mara directly telling the coaches to not give Jones snaps?
My theory is more along the lines  
ron mexico : 8/21/2019 9:49 am : link
When John and Dave sat down with Eli to discuss bringing him back this year, it was done with the promise to Eli that he would get every opportunity to succeed, that they would be all in with him.

Its also my theory that approach is not in the best long term interest of the franchise.

At the same time, I don't think that decision is going to set the franchise back decades or any other hyperbolic argument you will make on my behalf.

RE: RE: I don't think what Mara is doing is 'nefarious:  
Prude : 8/21/2019 9:52 am : link
Quote:
So do you believe Mara is forcing the coaches to give Eli all the snaps. And if so, why wouldn't that be "nefarious"?


No. I believe Mara said "We can't let this turn into a qb controversy, we have to avoid that at all costs"

And the coaching staff and the PR department and the beat writers mostly did what they could to follow that directive to the best of their ability. I don't think Mara was dictating snap counts, I think a coach with a losing record was making sure he didn't piss off the owner. Understandable for sure.

I also think Shurmur gave a clue to future employers that he was taking orders re: DJ and Eli.
'I was just following orders from my employers' isn't the worst defense in a job intervier with future employers

But wouldn't..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/21/2019 10:07 am : link
Eli also have to be complicit in this. I mean, he can't even go for a water break!

I think way too much is being read into things here, including Shurmur's press conference statement. He was joking about Mara.

I'm pretty sure this is a fluid situation where if eli struggles or the team gets off to a slow start that Jones will play. If the team is eliminated from contention that Jones will play.

Unless you disagree with that, I'm not sure what the practice reps pertain to.
I'm not sure what you mean by Eli being complicit  
ron mexico : 8/21/2019 10:18 am : link
Eli is doing what he's always done, repair to the best of his ability to be successful.

It's not his job to develop Jones or even look in the long-term interest of the team. That managements job.

I don't believe they'll make a switch at the first signs of struggle and it's my opinion that if they wait for mathematical of elimination excited and 17 , they will have waited too long.

We will all just have to wait and see how this all plays out. I'm willing to do that anyway
Prepare  
ron mexico : 8/21/2019 10:19 am : link
Not repair
Wait for mathematical elimination  
ron mexico : 8/21/2019 10:23 am : link
Like they did in 17

Talk to text on an old iPhone with the cracked screen isn't doing me any favors today
RE: Wait for mathematical elimination  
Prude : 8/21/2019 10:26 am : link
In comment 14538016 ron mexico said:
Quote:
Like they did in 17

Talk to text on an old iPhone with the cracked screen isn't doing me any favors today


Lol my chinese phone with the extremely iffy spellcheck after 8 beers isn't doing much better
So, we have two posters whose every sentence begins with:  
Bill L : 8/21/2019 11:35 am : link
"I think that..." or "I believe that..."...followed by some Mara conspiracy statement.

Opposing that, you have statements by Mara, Gettleman, and Shurmer on the record saying it's the coach's decision.

Seems like a reasonable thing to choose up sides upon.
if you have any specific thing I wrote that you disagree with  
ron mexico : 8/21/2019 11:45 am : link
I'd be happy to discuss it. Who knows, maybe you will change my mind.

If you think we shouldn't question anything the team does or says, I don't think message boards are for you.

RE: if you have any specific thing I wrote that you disagree with  
Bill L : 8/21/2019 12:46 pm : link
In comment 14538133 ron mexico said:
Quote:
I'd be happy to discuss it. Who knows, maybe you will change my mind.

If you think we shouldn't question anything the team does or says, I don't think message boards are for you.

I don't think it's inappropriate to question things. But baseless speculation on Mara saying or doing or instructing anything is not questioning things. It's manufacturing them.
Manning was the defacto starter once he got his roster bonus  
ron mexico : 8/21/2019 12:50 pm : link
back in March. They spent half the press conference after round 1 talking about how its Eli's job and Daniel is here to learn.

Do you think that call was entirely made by Shurmur?

Do you think the owner wont have a say on the fate of the franchises most iconic players?

Its not like I'm saying the moon landing was faked here.

RE: Manning was the defacto starter once he got his roster bonus  
Bill L : 8/21/2019 12:59 pm : link
In comment 14538226 ron mexico said:
Quote:
back in March. They spent half the press conference after round 1 talking about how its Eli's job and Daniel is here to learn.

Do you think that call was entirely made by Shurmur?

Do you think the owner wont have a say on the fate of the franchises most iconic players?

Its not like I'm saying the moon landing was faked here.


I do believe you are.

RE: Manning was the defacto starter once he got his roster bonus  
Bill L : 8/21/2019 1:01 pm : link
In comment 14538226 ron mexico said:
Quote:
back in March. They spent half the press conference after round 1 talking about how its Eli's job and Daniel is here to learn.

Do you think that call was entirely made by Shurmur?

Do you think the owner wont have a say on the fate of the franchises most iconic players?

Its not like I'm saying the moon landing was faked here.


Every incumbent is the de facto starter until proven otherwise. Why would you think that is unusual.

You also have, and I keep coming back to this, because it completely is in contrast to your Mara statements, which are all conjecture, actual quotes from Mara, Shurmer, and Gettleman that dispute your speculation.
This..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/21/2019 1:05 pm : link
is how things operate:

Quote:
Every incumbent is the de facto starter until proven otherwise. Why would you think that is unusual.


Even look at last year. Even Mayfield was sitting behind Taylor until an injury while Darnold started Day 1 because of a lack of an incumbent. That's not unusual in the least. The Chiefs traded up for Mahomes and he sat behind Smith.

What actually would be unusual is to have a proven starter and give the rookie a lot of time with the 1's just because of his draft status.

But acknowledging that takes a critical piece away from the contrarian view...
We are clearly following the KC model.....and why wouldn't we?  
Zeke's Alibi : 8/21/2019 1:12 pm : link
I think Daniel Jones has big things ahead of him in this league, but he is still a rookie this year. An incumbent of Eli's stature is going to be better than a rookie, unless our offensive line is a mess and the mobility comes into affect. It isn't anymore. The difference between us and KC though is that we are probably going to be on the outside looking in as far as the playoffs are concerned by November.

The real question is do you move on from Eli if you can still make a run for the playoffs or do you go to the rookie. I think they should definitely go to Jones in this situation as nothing about this team says it is Superbowl bound
I'm not saying that's unusual  
ron mexico : 8/21/2019 1:21 pm : link
I'm saying it's bullshit that this is 100% shurmur call and Mara played no part in that decision
Who is even saying that??  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/21/2019 1:32 pm : link
It is the opposite being posed.

That Mara is exerting special influence to have eli take as many snaps as possible. Hell, it is even intimated that Mara is putting pressure on Shurmur to make sure that happens, including a bizarre interpretation on what it means that Eli hasn't been given a day off.
The thing about the KC Model  
bigbluehoya : 8/21/2019 1:37 pm : link
and I'll preface this by saying that based on where we are at this moment (i.e. inability to change any decision prior to this moment), Eli should absolutely be the starting QB IMO for at least weeks 1-3...

KC had a ton of talent/depth - it was a playoff caliber roster. Having a winning campaign with Alex Smith while also grooming what they believed to be a future stud QB in Mahomes was objectively a real possibility. What's been dubbed as the "KC Model" was motivated by a realistic belief that the other goods necessary to win right now were in place. They were coming off of a 12-4 season.

The talented roster made it an acceptable (if not recommended) approach to pay an experienced-but-middling QB a bunch of money while the phenom sat and prepared. "Draft QB and make him sit" wasn't the fundamental tenet. It was circumstance.
Direct from the owner's mouth  
Bill L : 8/21/2019 1:41 pm : link
Quote:
Q: Do you imagine that if and when a decision comes on the quarterback situation this season that youíll have to approve it?
A: Well, Iíd like to be informed of it before I read it from you guys. But, at the end of the day, just like it was in í04, it was Tomís (Coughlin) decision back then, and it will be Patís (Shurmur) decision this time. Again, hopefully, itís a decision he doesnít have to make until way in the future.
I have no idea what that last post means  
ron mexico : 8/21/2019 1:44 pm : link
go back to my first post on this thread. My argument hasn't changed.

I believe Pat when he said
ron mexico : 8/19/2019 11:02 am : link : reply
The they are all on the same page with regards to Eli starting (side note, that is the exact same phrase Mac used when discussing the benching in 2017)

When the decision was made to keep Eli for the year and let him play out his contract, I believe it was a decision that Pat, Dave and John all made together, as you would expect on a decision of that magnitude. Whether or not that decision is in the best long term interest of the franchise is a debate for another thread.

I do not buy that Mara had no say in the matter though.


RE: Direct from the owner's mouth  
ron mexico : 8/21/2019 1:48 pm : link
In comment 14538283 Bill L said:
Quote:


Quote:


Q: Do you imagine that if and when a decision comes on the quarterback situation this season that youíll have to approve it?
A: Well, Iíd like to be informed of it before I read it from you guys. But, at the end of the day, just like it was in í04, it was Tomís (Coughlin) decision back then, and it will be Patís (Shurmur) decision this time. Again, hopefully, itís a decision he doesnít have to make until way in the future.



Yeah, I'm calling bullshit on that. Thats what we have been debating for the past 4 pages. He was in on the decision to have Eli be the day 1 starter and will be in on the decision if and when a change is made.

You take him at his word. I think he is at best being disingenuous.
And on the parallel to 04 that Mara used  
ron mexico : 8/21/2019 2:06 pm : link
All I'll say is that 2004 Warner is not 2019 Manning in terms of legacy and what that switch will mean. Not to mention the difference between 2004 Coughlin and 2019 Shurmur

But if the do end up making a switch when the team is 5-4 or thereabouts, I'll admit that I read the situation all wrong.

This..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/21/2019 2:09 pm : link
walked back statement is what it was directed at:

Quote:
I believe he thinks a qb controversy will be detrimental to the team in a ny media market. I disagree personally but I think that's his primary concern. I think he took people aside(not just Shurmur but lots of people) and said "I don't want this summer to turn into a QB controversy"

I think he believes a rookie can not possibly be as good as Eli. I think he believes that time on the bench will benefit Jones. I think he is trying to do the best thing for the team but it is just outdated thinking and marred by emotional ties to the Manning family.

It's not "nefarious" it's just not rational amd not supported by recent history. It has hamstrung the coaching staff and it has influenced the beat reporters whose career is predicated on access to the team and the facilities.

It's not evil, it's just not prudent.


Pretty clearly outlines that Mara is making decisions due to ties to the Manning family and is hamstringing the coaches.

And of course, this was the snippet that kicked off the debate:
Quote:
New to the board
Prude : 5:54 am : link : reply
But this situation has been driving me crazy. You have to do a bit of reading between the lines but to me it's obvious Mara has dictated that Eli is the starter.


ron, I know you crave taking the contrarian side, but not all rebuttals are directed at you.
RE: RE: Direct from the owner's mouth  
Bill L : 8/21/2019 2:23 pm : link
In comment 14538294 ron mexico said:
Quote:
In comment 14538283 Bill L said:


Quote:




Quote:


Q: Do you imagine that if and when a decision comes on the quarterback situation this season that youíll have to approve it?
A: Well, Iíd like to be informed of it before I read it from you guys. But, at the end of the day, just like it was in í04, it was Tomís (Coughlin) decision back then, and it will be Patís (Shurmur) decision this time. Again, hopefully, itís a decision he doesnít have to make until way in the future.





Yeah, I'm calling bullshit on that. Thats what we have been debating for the past 4 pages. He was in on the decision to have Eli be the day 1 starter and will be in on the decision if and when a change is made.

You take him at his word. I think he is at best being disingenuous.


All because "you believe..."

Cue Book of Mormon.
prude hadn't posted in hours  
ron mexico : 8/21/2019 2:24 pm : link
sure looked like you were responding to me

Maybe I should be less contrarian but you could benefit from not seeing some anti giant boogie man in every post that is shy of glowing about the org.

By the way, I prefer to be call a biased devils advocate


LOL..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/21/2019 2:27 pm : link
I don't see an anti-Giant boogieman:

Quote:
Maybe I should be less contrarian but you could benefit from not seeing some anti giant boogie man in every post that is shy of glowing about the org.


I just see an intentional siding with the minority opinion on almost every subject. Someone can't rally be that consistently contrarian unless they do it on purpose.
RE: RE: RE: Direct from the owner's mouth  
ron mexico : 8/21/2019 2:28 pm : link
In comment 14538353 Bill L said:
Quote:
In comment 14538294 ron mexico said:


Quote:


In comment 14538283 Bill L said:


Quote:




Quote:


Q: Do you imagine that if and when a decision comes on the quarterback situation this season that youíll have to approve it?
A: Well, Iíd like to be informed of it before I read it from you guys. But, at the end of the day, just like it was in í04, it was Tomís (Coughlin) decision back then, and it will be Patís (Shurmur) decision this time. Again, hopefully, itís a decision he doesnít have to make until way in the future.





Yeah, I'm calling bullshit on that. Thats what we have been debating for the past 4 pages. He was in on the decision to have Eli be the day 1 starter and will be in on the decision if and when a change is made.

You take him at his word. I think he is at best being disingenuous.



All because "you believe..."

Cue Book of Mormon.


Dude, this is what we do here.

We post our takes, our opinions, our predictions.

I write "I believe" to make it clear I'm stating my opinion or interpretation, not some fact I know to be 100% true.
RE: LOL..  
ron mexico : 8/21/2019 2:30 pm : link
In comment 14538362 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
I don't see an anti-Giant boogieman:



Quote:


Maybe I should be less contrarian but you could benefit from not seeing some anti giant boogie man in every post that is shy of glowing about the org.



I just see an intentional siding with the minority opinion on almost every subject. Someone can't rally be that consistently contrarian unless they do it on purpose.


well I don't bother stating the same thing everyone else is stating even if believe or side with it.

If a position is well represented and there is not much for me to add, I usually leave it alone.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Direct from the owner's mouth  
Bill L : 8/21/2019 2:37 pm : link
In comment 14538363 ron mexico said:
Quote:
...


Dude, this is what we do here.

We post our takes, our opinions, our predictions.

I write "I believe" to make it clear I'm stating my opinion or interpretation, not some fact I know to be 100% true.


Yes, but opposing that is an exact quote.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Direct from the owner's mouth  
ron mexico : 8/21/2019 2:42 pm : link
In comment 14538371 Bill L said:
Quote:
In comment 14538363 ron mexico said:


Quote:


...


Dude, this is what we do here.

We post our takes, our opinions, our predictions.

I write "I believe" to make it clear I'm stating my opinion or interpretation, not some fact I know to be 100% true.



Yes, but opposing that is an exact quote.


quotes aren't facts other than the fact that someone said those words

I'm not sure if you have gotten to this chapter in life yet, but there are the things called lies, half truths and spin.



RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Direct from the owner's mouth  
Bill L : 8/21/2019 2:45 pm : link
In comment 14538378 ron mexico said:
Quote:
In comment 14538371 Bill L said:


Quote:


In comment 14538363 ron mexico said:


Quote:


...


Dude, this is what we do here.

We post our takes, our opinions, our predictions.

I write "I believe" to make it clear I'm stating my opinion or interpretation, not some fact I know to be 100% true.



Yes, but opposing that is an exact quote.



quotes aren't facts other than the fact that someone said those words

I'm not sure if you have gotten to this chapter in life yet, but there are the things called lies, half truths and spin.



Sure. But it's more substantive than anything that you've put forward. And, you cal;l it a lie, *only* because it conflicts with your belief. The Book of Mormon thing is not all that far-fetched here.
I never saw the book of mormon  
ron mexico : 8/21/2019 2:49 pm : link
heard its pretty good.

But wouldn't the side reciting The Book Of John, chapter 3 verse 5 be the zealot in this analogy?

RE: I never saw the book of mormon  
Bill L : 8/21/2019 3:16 pm : link
In comment 14538385 ron mexico said:
Quote:
heard its pretty good.

But wouldn't the side reciting The Book Of John, chapter 3 verse 5 be the zealot in this analogy?


In the Book of Mormon there is a song, entitled "I believe" and the lyrics are apropos to this topic.
Killing me  
Thegratefulhead : 8/21/2019 10:25 pm : link
You're killing me. I want to put some of you in a blender feet first. Everyone is saying there is no QB competition and Eli Manning is the starter because that is what you are fucking supposed to say in the situation the Giants are in. I know all of you lunatics watch sports so what is your excuse for not understanding this? It is what every player on the team expects. The keyword was "say". Jones could start day 1. The only way that happens is if Jones place lights out and Eli proves he can't do it anymore. You don't need to announce that to the world. That is the way it is supposed to be. There is no conspiracy that the Giants just saying the correct damn thing under the circumstances. F U C K
RE: Killing me  
Prude : 8/22/2019 12:48 am : link
In comment 14538792 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
You're killing me. I want to put some of you in a blender feet first. Everyone is saying there is no QB competition and Eli Manning is the starter because that is what you are fucking supposed to say in the situation the Giants are in. I know all of you lunatics watch sports so what is your excuse for not understanding this? It is what every player on the team expects. The keyword was "say". Jones could start day 1. The only way that happens is if Jones place lights out and Eli proves he can't do it anymore. You don't need to announce that to the world. That is the way it is supposed to be. There is no conspiracy that the Giants just saying the correct damn thing under the circumstances. F U C K


That's the way it's supposed to be but when you don't allow the kid a single snap with the 1s in camp you are saying "I want to make sure it is impossible to win the starting job"

It just becomes a circular argument "i know he's not ready because he hasn't played against starters"
"He hasn't played against starters because he's not ready"

I've seen him throw 19 passes and he damn sure looks like he deserves a shot to win the job
RE: RE: Killing me  
TrueBlue56 : 8/22/2019 1:37 am : link
In comment 14538923 Prude said:
Quote:
In comment 14538792 Thegratefulhead said:


Quote:


You're killing me. I want to put some of you in a blender feet first. Everyone is saying there is no QB competition and Eli Manning is the starter because that is what you are fucking supposed to say in the situation the Giants are in. I know all of you lunatics watch sports so what is your excuse for not understanding this? It is what every player on the team expects. The keyword was "say". Jones could start day 1. The only way that happens is if Jones place lights out and Eli proves he can't do it anymore. You don't need to announce that to the world. That is the way it is supposed to be. There is no conspiracy that the Giants just saying the correct damn thing under the circumstances. F U C K



That's the way it's supposed to be but when you don't allow the kid a single snap with the 1s in camp you are saying "I want to make sure it is impossible to win the starting job"

It just becomes a circular argument "i know he's not ready because he hasn't played against starters"
"He hasn't played against starters because he's not ready"

I've seen him throw 19 passes and he damn sure looks like he deserves a shot to win the job


Shurmur has said time and time again that Eli is getting ready to start the season and Daniel Jones is getting ready to play. The time they have on the practice field is limited enough. Also, Daniel Jones has played with the 1's in preseason. Daniel Jones still has a lot to learn as a rookie, where Eli has the knowledge of an experienced veteran.

You want to make this a competition and the giants want to win games.
I want the better QB to play  
Prude : 8/22/2019 2:20 am : link
No one can say for sure who that is right now.
There is zero chance jones could start week 1  
ron mexico : 8/22/2019 4:42 am : link
Eli could shit the bed against cinci and jones could continue to be lights out and Eli will still start.

Eli starting is inevitable, there is no competition

RE: There is zero chance jones could start week 1  
Prude : 8/22/2019 5:04 am : link
In comment 14538950 ron mexico said:
Quote:
Eli could shit the bed against cinci and jones could continue to be lights out and Eli will still start.

Eli starting is inevitable, there is no competition



Agreed. But I don't have to like it.
Coach brought this noise  
Les in TO : 8/22/2019 7:05 am : link
On himself by the way he answered the question about QBs. If he sticks to the script and doesnít reference Mara then life goes on.
RE: I want the better QB to play  
Big Blue '56 : 8/22/2019 7:15 am : link
In comment 14538947 Prude said:
Quote:
No one can say for sure who that is right now.


I can say for sure. Eli starts
...  
christian : 8/22/2019 7:32 am : link
Mara doesn't appear to be the type of operater to sit management and staff down and direct them on football.

But he damn sure uses the media to imply and insinuate what he wants to happen, on critical points clumsily, and only a fool working for him wouldn't pick up on it.

For all the excitement the quote about it being Shurmur's decision, the next thought is probably more front of mind for the coach.

Quote:
Again, hopefully, itís a decision he doesnít have to make until way in the future.
Why is this..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/22/2019 8:16 am : link
such a focal point??

Quote:
That's the way it's supposed to be but when you don't allow the kid a single snap with the 1s in camp you are saying "I want to make sure it is impossible to win the starting job"


You keep presenting this as an active situation where Jones is barred from playing with the 1's (ignoring the fact that he did in preseason games).

You are most definitely insinuating that the Coach (influenced by the owner) is keeping Eli in on every snap purposely with the intent of delaying Jones' development.

It is a take without evidence or warrant.
Grrrr  
Thegratefulhead : 8/22/2019 9:58 am : link
How has Eli looked in camp?

Good.

Is he injured?

The Giants saying there is an open competition between Jones and a QB of Eli's acumen and tenure would be dumb. There is no benefit to announcing that. Let it play out organically.

Eli gets the amount of snaps he needs to get ready. End of story.

I smell fear.

Some of you know deep in your heart Eli is going to do well. For some bizarre reason that seems to fill you with dread. FWIW I think Jones would do well too. There is a ray of sunshine for you, don't jump off the bridge yet, if Eli sputters at all Jones will play.

Eli playing well..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/22/2019 10:00 am : link
this year should benefit us all, yet I've read several comments that say any game eli plays, even if he plays well, delays Jones' growth.

Again - another take without evidence or merit.
RE: Why is this..  
Thegratefulhead : 8/22/2019 10:04 am : link
In comment 14538993 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
such a focal point??



Quote:


That's the way it's supposed to be but when you don't allow the kid a single snap with the 1s in camp you are saying "I want to make sure it is impossible to win the starting job"




You keep presenting this as an active situation where Jones is barred from playing with the 1's (ignoring the fact that he did in preseason games).

You are most definitely insinuating that the Coach (influenced by the owner) is keeping Eli in on every snap purposely with the intent of delaying Jones' development.

It is a take without evidence or warrant.
it's absurd.
I honestly have no idea what you are trying to say  
ron mexico : 8/22/2019 10:06 am : link
Are you saying that there is an open QB competition or there isn't one?

RE: Eli playing well..  
bw in dc : 8/22/2019 10:12 am : link
In comment 14539089 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
this year should benefit us all, yet I've read several comments that say any game eli plays, even if he plays well, delays Jones' growth.

Again - another take without evidence or merit.


I've most definitely have said this. And stand by it.

It's a simple premise. This team, with or without Eli starting, isn't contending for a SB. We're several drafts and free agency windows away - maybe. So what's the point of running the 38 year old QB out there?

There is only one answer. And it's a short term one - to help Shurmur get some wins to get another year as the HC.

But even that is the wrong play. The best chance for Shurmur to solidify his future is to demonstrate he can take a young QB and mold him to be a productive, winning player. The long term dividends there would be huge. That should be the plan.

Get Jones into NFL action as soon as possible, craft him while he takes his lumps, let the team build camaraderie around Jones, and take advantage of the luxury of Barkley. A dynamic player who could be a young rookie's best friend.

This IS the ideal situation to start Jones right away. He's showing interesting flashes in preseason. So let's roll the dice and start getting to the benefits of that rookie contract now...
RE: I honestly have no idea what you are trying to say  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/22/2019 10:12 am : link
In comment 14539100 ron mexico said:
Quote:
Are you saying that there is an open QB competition or there isn't one?


Well, if you are focused on if there is an open competition or not, I'm not surprised you can't follow.

Is anyone even alluding to it being an open competition? Is there a reason it should be?
RE: RE: Eli playing well..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/22/2019 10:15 am : link
In comment 14539106 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14539089 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


this year should benefit us all, yet I've read several comments that say any game eli plays, even if he plays well, delays Jones' growth.

Again - another take without evidence or merit.



I've most definitely have said this. And stand by it.

It's a simple premise. This team, with or without Eli starting, isn't contending for a SB. We're several drafts and free agency windows away - maybe. So what's the point of running the 38 year old QB out there?

There is only one answer. And it's a short term one - to help Shurmur get some wins to get another year as the HC.

But even that is the wrong play. The best chance for Shurmur to solidify his future is to demonstrate he can take a young QB and mold him to be a productive, winning player. The long term dividends there would be huge. That should be the plan.

Get Jones into NFL action as soon as possible, craft him while he takes his lumps, let the team build camaraderie around Jones, and take advantage of the luxury of Barkley. A dynamic player who could be a young rookie's best friend.

This IS the ideal situation to start Jones right away. He's showing interesting flashes in preseason. So let's roll the dice and start getting to the benefits of that rookie contract now...


bw - there are countless examples of QB's sitting a year and then excelling when they take the field. The idea that sitting delays their growth isn't provable. The opposite may in fact be true. If you go back to 1990, the % of QB's drafted in the first round who were starters for 3 years or more is larger for those who sat a year vs. those who started right away.

I'd like to see Jones play if the season is over with or if Eli struggles, but to say that HAS to happen for success next season is just an observance, not really backed up by evidence.
RE: Eli playing well..  
ron mexico : 8/22/2019 10:17 am : link
In comment 14539089 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
this year should benefit us all, yet I've read several comments that say any game eli plays, even if he plays well, delays Jones' growth.

Again - another take without evidence or merit.


The logic is extremely straight forward.

All young players, particularly QBs need game experience to improve. The sooner Jones can get that experience the better.

I'm sure you will find some obscure unattributed quote as a rebuttal, but this is pretty simple.

And no, I'm not suggesting putting Jones out there week 1
RE: RE: I honestly have no idea what you are trying to say  
ron mexico : 8/22/2019 10:21 am : link
In comment 14539107 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
In comment 14539100 ron mexico said:


Quote:


Are you saying that there is an open QB competition or there isn't one?




Well, if you are focused on if there is an open competition or not, I'm not surprised you can't follow.

Is anyone even alluding to it being an open competition? Is there a reason it should be?


the greatfull head in his first post made it sound like there was one but they are just not calling it that.

He said that Jones could start week 1
Sad commentary  
Thegratefulhead : 8/22/2019 10:23 am : link
A few people seem so enthusiastic about the end of Eli's career and appear to desire it to end in total disgrace. Is this about being right about what you typed on a message board? They drafted who looks to be a legitimate replacement be happy. The transitioning is happening at the pace it is supposed to, calm the f*** down. I believe a year of playing is better than a year of sitting but there is plenty of room for debate on that issue, many cases to cite proving both methods, that is not settled science.
RE: RE: RE: I honestly have no idea what you are trying to say  
Thegratefulhead : 8/22/2019 10:25 am : link
In comment 14539121 ron mexico said:
Quote:
In comment 14539107 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


In comment 14539100 ron mexico said:


Quote:


Are you saying that there is an open QB competition or there isn't one?




Well, if you are focused on if there is an open competition or not, I'm not surprised you can't follow.

Is anyone even alluding to it being an open competition? Is there a reason it should be?



the greatfull head in his first post made it sound like there was one but they are just not calling it that.

He said that Jones could start week 1
Ron this is pro sports if they drafted someone to play your position there is always a competition. When that person was drafted at 6 you bet your ass there is. but you have to completely win it like a boxer going for the title you not going to win the decision you got to knock him out. Jones is not knocking Eli out in camp or games. Eli starts.
you are making things up  
ron mexico : 8/22/2019 10:26 am : link
no one wants Eli's career to end in disgrace

RE: RE: RE: RE: I honestly have no idea what you are trying to say  
ron mexico : 8/22/2019 10:27 am : link
In comment 14539127 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
In comment 14539121 ron mexico said:


Quote:


In comment 14539107 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


In comment 14539100 ron mexico said:


Quote:


Are you saying that there is an open QB competition or there isn't one?




Well, if you are focused on if there is an open competition or not, I'm not surprised you can't follow.

Is anyone even alluding to it being an open competition? Is there a reason it should be?



the greatfull head in his first post made it sound like there was one but they are just not calling it that.

He said that Jones could start week 1

Ron this is pro sports if they drafted someone to play your position there is always a competition. When that person was drafted at 6 you bet your ass there is. but you have to completely win it like a boxer going for the title you not going to win the decision you got to knock him out. Jones is not knocking Eli out in camp or games. Eli starts.


I respectfully disagree. There is no scenario other than injury where Jones starts week 1.

RE: RE: Eli playing well..  
Jimmy Googs : 8/22/2019 10:42 am : link
In comment 14539116 ron mexico said:
Quote:
In comment 14539089 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


this year should benefit us all, yet I've read several comments that say any game eli plays, even if he plays well, delays Jones' growth.

Again - another take without evidence or merit.



The logic is extremely straight forward.

All young players, particularly QBs need game experience to improve. The sooner Jones can get that experience the better.

I'm sure you will find some obscure unattributed quote as a rebuttal, but this is pretty simple.

And no, I'm not suggesting putting Jones out there week 1


There is no special sauce to perfectly plan out starting level QB development as there are far too many variables at play. As mentioned on here numerous times, QB development is also typically not linear.

But plain common sense should lead most to support the view that not getting in-game experience as the starter will delay growth of the QB. While some may be able to overcome that delay and fast-forward their growth with less games when they ultimately get in, that would seem to be more the exception albeit fortunate.
RE: RE: Eli playing well..  
Les in TO : 8/22/2019 10:47 am : link
In comment 14539106 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14539089 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


this year should benefit us all, yet I've read several comments that say any game eli plays, even if he plays well, delays Jones' growth.

Again - another take without evidence or merit.



I've most definitely have said this. And stand by it.

It's a simple premise. This team, with or without Eli starting, isn't contending for a SB. We're several drafts and free agency windows away - maybe. So what's the point of running the 38 year old QB out there?

There is only one answer. And it's a short term one - to help Shurmur get some wins to get another year as the HC.

But even that is the wrong play. The best chance for Shurmur to solidify his future is to demonstrate he can take a young QB and mold him to be a productive, winning player. The long term dividends there would be huge. That should be the plan.

Get Jones into NFL action as soon as possible, craft him while he takes his lumps, let the team build camaraderie around Jones, and take advantage of the luxury of Barkley. A dynamic player who could be a young rookie's best friend.

This IS the ideal situation to start Jones right away. He's showing interesting flashes in preseason. So let's roll the dice and start getting to the benefits of that rookie contract now...
yup. There was a good Wall Street journal article last year with all the first round QBs selected that demonstrated sitting a year did absolutely nothing statistically to improve development vs starting right away. May as well get the teething issues out of the way now while the team is being rebuilt.
Team on same page.  
Thegratefulhead : 8/22/2019 10:48 am : link
Everyone on the team from ownership to coaches to players seem to be on the same page with this. Everyone thinks Eli is the starter and Eli deserves to be the starter. Everyone also seems to accept the reality that if Eli doesn't perform Jones will play. That's the plan everyone in the franchise is an agreement on. I don't understand what the problem is. It seems reasonable it seems deserved it's the right thing to do.
RE: RE: RE: Eli playing well..  
bw in dc : 8/22/2019 11:02 am : link
In comment 14539111 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:


bw - there are countless examples of QB's sitting a year and then excelling when they take the field. The idea that sitting delays their growth isn't provable. The opposite may in fact be true. If you go back to 1990, the % of QB's drafted in the first round who were starters for 3 years or more is larger for those who sat a year vs. those who started right away.

I'd like to see Jones play if the season is over with or if Eli struggles, but to say that HAS to happen for success next season is just an observance, not really backed up by evidence.


But it can work. PManning, Ryan, Dak, Luck, Newton - off the top of my head - started right away and have certainly lived to tell about it.

I feel Jones is worth the stretch in this case because he appears athletic to take hits and avoid hits, is smart, has Barkley, will be in an offense that will be mostly horizontal, and the league is more QB friendly than ever.

I'm actually surprised more posters don't see it this way. I get why the EFC doesn't want Jones to start - they are romantics - but it's not as risky as it seems. With a stud like Barkley, shift the load to him and let him be the bulwark for Jones.
.  
arcarsenal : 8/22/2019 11:07 am : link
It's still very easy for me.

Eli plays until the team stops winning. If the team isn't winning out of the gates, Jones should be playing well before Halloween.

Is anyone going to be upset if NYG are sitting 5-3 at the halfway point and are firmly in the mix in the NFC?

It will depend how we get there - but that's really not that far-fetched. And if we're winning more than we're losing and Eli is playing well, it doesn't bother me to have him under center.

It's just got to be a quick hook if not.

There's one singular scenario that will bother me - and that's the Giants starting poorly, but management not being willing to pull the plug on Eli until we're "mathematically out" and the games don't matter. If Eli starts poorly or the offense is having a tough time, Daniel needs to play then and there while the season hasn't yet been entirely lost.
.  
arcarsenal : 8/22/2019 11:08 am : link
Further - I have said this several times and I am not the only person here who thinks this, but I don't think Jones is going to be the only thing we're pleasantly surprised by as far as our QB's go this year.

I have a sneaking suspicion that Eli is going to be quite a bit better than people think....
RE: Team on same page.  
ron mexico : 8/22/2019 11:08 am : link
In comment 14539144 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
Everyone on the team from ownership to coaches to players seem to be on the same page with this. Everyone thinks Eli is the starter and Eli deserves to be the starter. Everyone also seems to accept the reality that if Eli doesn't perform Jones will play. That's the plan everyone in the franchise is an agreement on. I don't understand what the problem is. It seems reasonable it seems deserved it's the right thing to do.


I largely agree with this but am concerned that Eli will have a longer leash than what is best for the team due to all he has done for the franchise. Some will say he has earned that right and I'm not going to fight anyone on that point.

What I think would have been best for the franchise, and freely admit this is coming from my cushy office chair and not the people in charge of a billion dollar franchise, is to go with a stop gap vet to start the season. There would be less hand wringing over the switch and the team could focus more resources in Jones development.

On a somewhat related note (hot take warning) I think the best thing for Elis legacy both with the Giants fan base and around the league would have been to cut him after 17 and allow him to finish up his career someplace else.
There are examples..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/22/2019 11:11 am : link
where starting right away works and there are examples where sitting a year works.

There are also a lot of examples of guys playing starting midway through their rookie year that works. But there isn't a statistical advantage between those who start early and those who sit - and that's what is assumed when people say logic dictates that getting experience in year one is a good thing.

Tell that to EJ Manuel, Joey Harrington, Patrick Ramsey, JP Losman, Vince Young, Christian Ponder, Jake Locker, Brandon Weeden, Johnny Manziel or Josh Freeman.

That doesn't even include RGIII who played his rookie season and then his career was basically done. It also doesn't include Jamarcus Russell who had a couple of starts at the end of his rookie season.

My take is that a lot of those QB's on that list shouldn't have been taken in the first round and certainly weren't ready to start - but playing them definitely didn't help their career progression.
Arca  
Big Blue '56 : 8/22/2019 11:22 am : link
Quote:


Is anyone going to be upset if NYG are sitting 5-3 at the halfway point and are firmly in the mix in the NFC?



The usual suspects
RE: RE: RE: Eli playing well..  
bw in dc : 8/22/2019 11:26 am : link
In comment 14539143 Les in TO said:
Quote:
yup. There was a good Wall Street journal article last year with all the first round QBs selected that demonstrated sitting a year did absolutely nothing statistically to improve development vs starting right away. May as well get the teething issues out of the way now while the team is being rebuilt.


This one? I actually recall reading this.

I have a subscription to the WSJ, so you may need one to access...
Rookie QBs - ( New Window )
bw  
Big Blue '56 : 8/22/2019 11:27 am : link
Quote:


But it can work. PManning, Ryan, Dak, Luck, Newton - off the top of my head - started right away and have certainly lived to tell about it.



Who did they replace? Whether you agree or not, the Giants (formerly known as Jints Central) believe Eli is still a viable starter, so they will go with him until, if and when he is not.

Who on your list uprooted a viable starter?
People act like a backup rookie isn't doin shit during practice.  
Zeke's Alibi : 8/22/2019 11:28 am : link
Football is football, and these guys need to adjust to the speed of the game first and foremost. Running the scout team is highly beneficial for these guys.
Luck unseated  
ron mexico : 8/22/2019 11:29 am : link
Manning. he was certainly a viable starter
What teething issues did Mahomes have? These guys  
Zeke's Alibi : 8/22/2019 11:31 am : link
are more ready to make the jump than ever before. They just need to get used to the speed all over field at the NFL level. I'm a pretty firm believer you know what you are getting in year 2 with the QBs coming into the league now.
But..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/22/2019 11:32 am : link
the opposite is also true:

Quote:
There was a good Wall Street journal article last year with all the first round QBs selected that demonstrated sitting a year did absolutely nothing statistically to improve development vs starting right away.


Starting QB's in year 1 didn't statistically improve their development in year 2 or beyond. Isn't that what some of you are saying?

What is being said is that QB's need the experience early to succeed. The statistics indicate that development isn't dependent on starting year 1 vs. starting year 2.
RE: Luck unseated  
Big Blue '56 : 8/22/2019 11:32 am : link
In comment 14539203 ron mexico said:
Quote:
Manning. he was certainly a viable starter


Um, Peyton was recovering from 4 neck surgeries. Iirc, he wasnít deemed medically ready by the Colts and they parted ways not long after
RE: But..  
ron mexico : 8/22/2019 11:36 am : link
In comment 14539209 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
the opposite is also true:



Quote:


There was a good Wall Street journal article last year with all the first round QBs selected that demonstrated sitting a year did absolutely nothing statistically to improve development vs starting right away.



Starting QB's in year 1 didn't statistically improve their development in year 2 or beyond. Isn't that what some of you are saying?

What is being said is that QB's need the experience early to succeed. The statistics indicate that development isn't dependent on starting year 1 vs. starting year 2.


No, what we are saying is they need experience and it doesn't really matter if that experience comes sooner or later so might as well begin sooner.

...  
christian : 8/22/2019 11:41 am : link
Now that UFA is over and virtually every QB is signed, it's worth noting what "stop-gap" QBs netted. There was plenty of conjecture cutting Manning and signing a stop gap might cost the same. Remember, cutting Manning pre-March would have saved ~17M.

- Fitzpatrick - 7M guaranteed
- Taylor - 6M guaranteed
- Bridgewater - 7.2M guaranteed
- RG3 - 2M guaranteed
- Mcarron - 2.5M guaranteed
- Mccown - 2M guaranteed

My opinion never changed -- I wanted the Giants to cut Manning, sign a backstop, and pick a QB at 6. That would have saved to Giants at least 10M, maybe alot more.

Personally, I'll be disappointed if the Giants don't either get to the playoffs or Jones gets 8-10 games of experience this year.
And what I'm saying..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/22/2019 11:46 am : link
is this isn't true. Not surprisingly you ignore it:

Quote:
No, what we are saying is they need experience and it doesn't really matter if that experience comes sooner or later so might as well begin sooner.


The statistics don't show that starting earlier leads to future success, nor does it show that starting in year 2 has a distinct advantage.

So why is the claim that QB's need experience being used? I'm guessing it is only because of the desire for certain posters to see anyone other than Eli play.

You can keep saying that the QB's need experience, but you have no data to support it. There's actually stronger data to support that starting in year 2 for first round QB's has a higher rate of success for the number of years they will remain the starter, but it isn't substantially better - just slightly.
RE: RE: But..  
bw in dc : 8/22/2019 11:46 am : link
In comment 14539218 ron mexico said:
Quote:

No, what we are saying is they need experience and it doesn't really matter if that experience comes sooner or later so might as well begin sooner.


Exactly. And if there is no material statistical difference waiting vs starting right away, then it makes sense to start right away to (1) determine more quickly if the pick is a boom or a bust and (2) getting into the early returns of that rookie contract.

I'm really into #1. The sooner you can decide the quality of the pick, the better a team can strategize.
So why is the claim that QB's need experience being used?  
ron mexico : 8/22/2019 11:53 am : link
Seriously?

Like for real, you call me contrarian but are arguing against the point that QBs need experience to develop?

Ponderous...
Ok  
Thegratefulhead : 8/22/2019 11:56 am : link
I am OK with discussing potential issues. I agree the leash should be short. I think the way Jones has played shortened the leash. If he continues to play well Eli has to deliver, the pressure for change is going to be deafening the moment of the first adversity and will only build. Fears of a long leash are not realistic to me. I agree with Arc, Eli is going to shine. Eli will exceed expectations this year.
There..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/22/2019 11:59 am : link
isn't any statistical evidence to show QB's need experience in year 1 to succeed!!!

Yes I am arguing against it. I can see bw's take on using Year 1 to determine the future viability of the player, but to make it seem like the QB needs game experience in Year 1 to develop is not proven.

For the dimwitted, EJ Manuel, Joey Harrington, Patrick Ramsey, JP Losman, Vince Young, Christian Ponder, Jake Locker, Brandon Weeden, Johnny Manziel and Josh Freeman all had significant time playing Year 1. All first round QB's.

Meanwhile, there are a lot of QB's who took over starting Year 2 who have had success.

Show me how playing year 1 leads to development. You c an't. The best you can show is that starting year 2 vs. year 1 from a development standpoint is a near wash.

Are you purposely not grasping this?
Man you are dense  
ron mexico : 8/22/2019 12:12 pm : link
let me try this again

QBs need experience to develop.

We all seem to agree that it doesn't matter if that experience come year 1 or year 2.

Given the above, there are significant benefits to starting sooner.

You can take more advantage of the rookie contract
You will find out sooner if you made a mistake
You will better align with Barkley's window

No one, let me repeat this, no one is saying that the benefit to starting year one is anything other than getting the process started sooner.


I doubt that will get through to a guy  
ron mexico : 8/22/2019 12:15 pm : link
who thinks QBs don't need playing time to develop and if Manziel got a season or two on the bench he would be an all pro right now

RE: RE: RE: But..  
Zeke's Alibi : 8/22/2019 12:17 pm : link
In comment 14539238 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14539218 ron mexico said:


Quote:



No, what we are saying is they need experience and it doesn't really matter if that experience comes sooner or later so might as well begin sooner.




Exactly. And if there is no material statistical difference waiting vs starting right away, then it makes sense to start right away to (1) determine more quickly if the pick is a boom or a bust and (2) getting into the early returns of that rookie contract.

I'm really into #1. The sooner you can decide the quality of the pick, the better a team can strategize.


There is no material statistical difference between starting right away vs year 2. You know what is proven statistically outside of Baker Mayfield and Deshaun Watson? Rookies QBs struggle irregardless. And the years that Baker and Deshaun gave you as rookies were statically pretty average for the league. You play the QB in year 1 who gives you the best chance of winning. At this point it is still Eli Manning.
Can we all at least agree  
ron mexico : 8/22/2019 12:21 pm : link
That Jones will be more primed for success next year if he gets significant playing time this year?

Or do you think that doesn't matter,
RE: Man you are dense  
bw in dc : 8/22/2019 12:21 pm : link
In comment 14539285 ron mexico said:
Quote:

You can take more advantage of the rookie contract
You will find out sooner if you made a mistake
You will better align with Barkley's window

No one, let me repeat this, no one is saying that the benefit to starting year one is anything other than getting the process started sooner.



Right.

Here is the benefit - experience and exposure to real game NFL speed. You hear that all of the time, right? "The game has slowed down for me compared to last year. So now I'm able to do do X,Y and Z better..."
Huh??  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/22/2019 12:23 pm : link
Quote:
No one, let me repeat this, no one is saying that the benefit to starting year one is anything other than getting the process started sooner.


Really? Seems to me that several posts talk about Jones giving the team the best shot to win. That's seems to certainly be implied as a "benefit" to starting year 1:

Quote:
I don't know why
Pep22 : 8/19/2019 10:34 am : link : reply
anyone would think Eli gives them the best shot to win.

Quote:
I think he's correct
arniefez : 8/19/2019 10:42 am : link : reply
Shurmur has to try and keep his job. Playing Jones right away is probably the best way to do that.

Quote:
Why wouldn't Shurmur...
bw in dc : 8/19/2019 2:35 pm : link : reply
want to start Jones? Jones is clearly the better prototype to run PS's offense. Having Eli limits the playbook because Eli is 38 and a mediocre athlete on a good day. Jones, who I'm not sold on yet, is younger, clearly a better athlete, and has the capacity to make off-schedule plays.


Those are quotes in this thread. There clearly are posters saying more than "let's start the clock". They are saying Jones gives us a better chance to win.

You can "repeat" that no one is saying that the benefit to starting day one is to just get the process started, and once again - you'd be wrong.
Can you..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/22/2019 12:24 pm : link
please show me where playing in year one leads to development?

Quote:
I doubt that will get through to a guy
ron mexico : 12:15 pm : link : reply
who thinks QBs don't need playing time to develop and if Manziel got a season or two on the bench he would be an all pro right now


If you can't than please stop repeating this as fact. There is no evidence to support it.
RE: I doubt that will get through to a guy  
Jimmy Googs : 8/22/2019 12:24 pm : link
In comment 14539290 ron mexico said:
Quote:
who thinks QBs don't need playing time to develop and if Manziel got a season or two on the bench he would be an all pro right now


We should bench Jones tonight since the playing experience he is getting doesn't matter anyway per all this relevant data.

When we need a QB other than Eli to take a snap, then just tell Jones to put on his jersey...
Patrick Mahomes threw 50tds last year and we still have posters  
Zeke's Alibi : 8/22/2019 12:25 pm : link
saying it is important to play in year 1.
The guy..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/22/2019 12:26 pm : link
who feels left out shows up to throw a pithy one-liner out there that doesn't contribute jackshit to the topic.

Well done!
RE: Patrick Mahomes threw 50tds last year and we still have posters  
ron mexico : 8/22/2019 12:27 pm : link
In comment 14539308 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
saying it is important to play in year 1.


Ok, lets all bank on Jones being the next Mahomes instead of being like the 1000 other QBs who needed some time to develop.

That sample size of 1 is pretty powerful

RE: Can we all at least agree  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/22/2019 12:27 pm : link
In comment 14539299 ron mexico said:
Quote:
That Jones will be more primed for success next year if he gets significant playing time this year?

Or do you think that doesn't matter,


And this is exactly what we are disagreeing on. The evidence doesn't support that playing first rounders in year 1 gives them an advantage. I'm ambivalent on whether it matters or not. What I'm saying is it isn't necessary.
RE: Can you..  
ron mexico : 8/22/2019 12:30 pm : link
In comment 14539305 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
please show me where playing in year one leads to development?



Quote:


I doubt that will get through to a guy
ron mexico : 12:15 pm : link : reply
who thinks QBs don't need playing time to develop and if Manziel got a season or two on the bench he would be an all pro right now



If you can't than please stop repeating this as fact. There is no evidence to support it.


RE: Patrick Mahomes threw 50tds last year and we still have posters  
Jimmy Googs : 8/22/2019 12:32 pm : link
In comment 14539308 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
saying it is important to play in year 1.


Mahomes and his coach talk about playing at the end of year 1 as being kind of helpful...

https://www.kansascity.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/vahe-gregorian/article216749115.html
RE: RE: Can we all at least agree  
ron mexico : 8/22/2019 12:32 pm : link
In comment 14539314 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
In comment 14539299 ron mexico said:


Quote:


That Jones will be more primed for success next year if he gets significant playing time this year?

Or do you think that doesn't matter,



And this is exactly what we are disagreeing on. The evidence doesn't support that playing first rounders in year 1 gives them an advantage. I'm ambivalent on whether it matters or not. What I'm saying is it isn't necessary.


so you think Jones ability to play well week 1 next year, and have a successful overall season, will be exactly the same if he gets zero snaps this year as opposed to getting significant time.

Just want to make sure I have that correct.
Instead..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/22/2019 12:33 pm : link
of searching for a gif, I'm assuming the search for data about Year 1 QB's getting experience that leads to development turned up empty?

I'm not claiming that sitting a year leads to better development - the data is neutral - what I'm saying is there is no correlation to Year 1 QB's starting that led to having greater success in Year 2 than those who sat.

The data is neutral. This seems like a particularly tough thing for you to grasp, which goes back to my comment about dimness yesterday.....
RE: RE: Patrick Mahomes threw 50tds last year and we still have posters  
Zeke's Alibi : 8/22/2019 12:35 pm : link
In comment 14539313 ron mexico said:
Quote:
In comment 14539308 Zeke's Alibi said:


Quote:


saying it is important to play in year 1.



Ok, lets all bank on Jones being the next Mahomes instead of being like the 1000 other QBs who needed some time to develop.

That sample size of 1 is pretty powerful


See that is the point. The QB is going to show you what he is in year 2 what he is irregardless of whether he plays or not. After that it is a slow progression that comes with experience. There is only a sample size of one because most teams aren't in the position the Giants are with an incumbent starter that can still play at an average level.

That is the real crux of people'e arguments here is that they don't think that Eli can play average with an improved line. I think Eli's game has aged pretty poorly with the way the league is moving and his weaknesses are really highlighted in the modern NFL, but to think a rookie QB is going to give you better play than Eli will is asinine. Baker's and Deshaun's are about on par with what Eli gives you and they had the best two rookie seasons ever.
RE: RE: RE: Can we all at least agree  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/22/2019 12:36 pm : link
In comment 14539319 ron mexico said:
Quote:
In comment 14539314 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


In comment 14539299 ron mexico said:


Quote:


That Jones will be more primed for success next year if he gets significant playing time this year?

Or do you think that doesn't matter,



And this is exactly what we are disagreeing on. The evidence doesn't support that playing first rounders in year 1 gives them an advantage. I'm ambivalent on whether it matters or not. What I'm saying is it isn't necessary.



so you think Jones ability to play well week 1 next year, and have a successful overall season, will be exactly the same if he gets zero snaps this year as opposed to getting significant time.

Just want to make sure I have that correct.


Personally I'd like him to get experience. More so for the reasons bw mentioned. But why would I expect Year 2 to be different if he gets playing time this year? Do you expect Josh Rosen to be significantly better this year? Do you expect Lamar Jackson to be? I expect to see the same from Rosen and regression from Jackson, and if that happens - what benefit was gained playing Year 1? Hell, you can make a damn good case that playing year 1 was very detrimental to Rosen.
RE: The guy..  
Jimmy Googs : 8/22/2019 12:38 pm : link
In comment 14539310 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
who feels left out shows up to throw a pithy one-liner out there that doesn't contribute jackshit to the topic.

Well done!


don't be jealous because I can say more in a few words while your multiple posts only wind up calling everybody dim...
RE: RE: RE: Patrick Mahomes threw 50tds last year and we still have posters  
Jimmy Googs : 8/22/2019 12:39 pm : link
In comment 14539326 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:


See that is the point. The QB is going to show you what he is in year 2 what he is irregardless of whether he plays or not.


read the Mahomes article Zeke
RE: Huh??  
bw in dc : 8/22/2019 12:40 pm : link
In comment 14539302 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:

Why wouldn't Shurmur...
bw in dc : 8/19/2019 2:35 pm : link : reply
want to start Jones? Jones is clearly the better prototype to run PS's offense. Having Eli limits the playbook because Eli is 38 and a mediocre athlete on a good day. Jones, who I'm not sold on yet, is younger, clearly a better athlete, and has the capacity to make off-schedule plays.


Well, I didn't say anything about winning. I guess it seems implied. I said Jones is better suited to run Shurmur's offense.

I don't call..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/22/2019 12:40 pm : link
everyone dim. Just those who continually demonstrate it.

And for the record - you aren't dim. You know exactly what you are doing which makes it that much worse.
RE: RE: The guy..  
bw in dc : 8/22/2019 12:41 pm : link
In comment 14539330 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:

don't be jealous because I can say more in a few words while your multiple posts only wind up calling everybody dim...


I'll say it - I admire your pithy style... ;)

(Too many words?)
Fucking ponderous contrarian  
ron mexico : 8/22/2019 12:42 pm : link
just arguing to argue and using quotes unrelated to the discussion at hand made by others, which has become your go to tactic

To be honest, I face off against you because I think you usually bring good arguments to the table but you are just devolving into a troll.



RE: RE: RE: RE: Patrick Mahomes threw 50tds last year and we still have posters  
Zeke's Alibi : 8/22/2019 12:42 pm : link
In comment 14539333 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 14539326 Zeke's Alibi said:


Quote:




See that is the point. The QB is going to show you what he is in year 2 what he is irregardless of whether he plays or not.



read the Mahomes article Zeke


Yes one game just to give you a taste. I think it is important to get Jones some snaps. I don't want him on the bench completely. Blowouts either way he should definitely play and of course as soon as the playoffs are looking unlikely or if Eli is struggling. Daniel Jones is playing this year at some point.
No, you call them worse so seems like you are having a good day  
Jimmy Googs : 8/22/2019 12:44 pm : link
thus far.

And Ron isn't being dim just because you are talking past each other.
RE: RE: RE: RE: But..  
bw in dc : 8/22/2019 12:44 pm : link
In comment 14539293 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:

There is no material statistical difference between starting right away vs year 2. You know what is proven statistically outside of Baker Mayfield and Deshaun Watson? Rookies QBs struggle irregardless. And the years that Baker and Deshaun gave you as rookies were statically pretty average for the league. You play the QB in year 1 who gives you the best chance of winning. At this point it is still Eli Manning.


Winning what?
That linked article didn't say a whole much about how important  
Zeke's Alibi : 8/22/2019 12:45 pm : link
that one game was other than some inane bullshit that all these guys say. What did you want him to say? Even if he felt it wasn't important he wasn't going to downplay that start.
Everyone misses that each qb is different  
micky : 8/22/2019 12:45 pm : link
Some benefit right off the bat while others benefit sitting. Who knows what jones is unless you see him everyday and what he grasps.

RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: But..  
bw in dc : 8/22/2019 12:47 pm : link
In comment 14539350 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14539293 Zeke's Alibi said:


Quote:



There is no material statistical difference between starting right away vs year 2. You know what is proven statistically outside of Baker Mayfield and Deshaun Watson? Rookies QBs struggle irregardless. And the years that Baker and Deshaun gave you as rookies were statically pretty average for the league. You play the QB in year 1 who gives you the best chance of winning. At this point it is still Eli Manning.



Winning what?


Let me clean this up - winning big? Like a SB or NFC Championship game? If not, and that's where I am, I see no reason to start Eli other than for the romantics wanting to see Eli go out in some style...
RE: Fucking ponderous contrarian  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/22/2019 12:47 pm : link
In comment 14539341 ron mexico said:
Quote:
just arguing to argue and using quotes unrelated to the discussion at hand made by others, which has become your go to tactic

To be honest, I face off against you because I think you usually bring good arguments to the table but you are just devolving into a troll.




Are you really calling me a contrarian?? What is the majority opinion I'm fighting? You can't even get your fucking terminology correct.

I will say it again - there has been no correlation to starting first round QB's Year 1 vs. sitting them to how quickly they develop. It is a neutral argument. And hell, some of it is skewed by players like Mark Sanchez who started immediately, had early success and saw a precipitous decline.

I'm saying that the data doesn't show that Year 1 experience leads to greater development. Full stop. I've already said that if eli struggles or the team is out of contention that I want to see Jones, but it isn't so that he gets essential experience to develop with - it is to move along from Eli and look at what we have for the future.

You can't prove that Year 1 experience is essential, so why do you keep acting as if it is?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Patrick Mahomes threw 50tds last year and we still have posters  
Jimmy Googs : 8/22/2019 12:47 pm : link
In comment 14539345 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
In comment 14539333 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


In comment 14539326 Zeke's Alibi said:


Quote:




See that is the point. The QB is going to show you what he is in year 2 what he is irregardless of whether he plays or not.



read the Mahomes article Zeke



Yes one game just to give you a taste. I think it is important to get Jones some snaps. I don't want him on the bench completely. Blowouts either way he should definitely play and of course as soon as the playoffs are looking unlikely or if Eli is struggling. Daniel Jones is playing this year at some point.


Agree Zeke. Just saying that the debate going on above is arguing that game experience in year 1 doesn't matter based on all the relevant data. Just don't tell that to Mahomes & KC because they don't seem to see it that way...
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: But..  
Zeke's Alibi : 8/22/2019 12:47 pm : link
In comment 14539350 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14539293 Zeke's Alibi said:


Quote:



There is no material statistical difference between starting right away vs year 2. You know what is proven statistically outside of Baker Mayfield and Deshaun Watson? Rookies QBs struggle irregardless. And the years that Baker and Deshaun gave you as rookies were statically pretty average for the league. You play the QB in year 1 who gives you the best chance of winning. At this point it is still Eli Manning.



Winning what?


Winning football games. This team is a couple years from competing for a superbowl. And I already know what you are going to say, well don't you think that getting significant snaps as a rookie is important to his development. But we have gone over that, it doesn't really seem to be that important to play as a rookie, especially when the jump is so significant these guys are more than likely going to struggle. Darnold got benched with an "injury" so they didn't completely shatter his confidence.
I think part of my issue with the vague potential benefit  
Bill L : 8/22/2019 12:59 pm : link
of playing Jones this for the sake of next year (even though, as repeatedly noted, there is no evidence to support any benefit), is that people are so willing to punt away this year without even seeing if we have a chance. I'll bet my last dollar that the root of it is an anti-Eli thing, but whatever.
To me, the willingness to intentionally lose, besides being unprincipled onits face, does a real disservice to everyone involved, players and fans alike. And to do it just because it fits the argument from your ego??? At least a disreputable boxer gets paid when he takes a dive.
Stop the Strawman nonsense  
Thegratefulhead : 8/22/2019 1:03 pm : link
When we take everyone's opinion and twist it to the ridiculous it makes discussion impossible.

I still say some of you are scared and it has to do with your pride about being right about the demise of Eli. I get it, it sucks to be publicly wrong. My position on Eli has evolved because I don't like to be wrong either. I had convinced myself Eli was toast. I was exhausted by the shitty football and every time there was a spot in the season where I hoped Eli would make a perfect throw and be the reason they won, he disappointed me. What I have seen at the end of last year and this preseason changed my mind. I adapt to new information and make changes on my positions.

Based on what Foles and Keenum have done in this system, with this OL and Barkley, with Eli in year 2 in the system and not having to force the ball in a certain direction I expect significant improvement in Eli's numbers from last year. If he goes 1 to 2% comp in comp and throws a few more TDs for a few more yards, that looks pretty good no? It isn't unreasonable. OBJ was not OBJ last year. Quite frankly the O looked better after he quit.

I think people are afraid of this because of the absolute positions some of them have taken on this board regarding Eli and would be unhappy with the fallout on BBI. That sucks.
RE: That linked article didn't say a whole much about how important  
Jimmy Googs : 8/22/2019 1:07 pm : link
In comment 14539351 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
that one game was other than some inane bullshit that all these guys say. What did you want him to say? Even if he felt it wasn't important he wasn't going to downplay that start.


Whoa, back up..read it again. This time without the denial mindset that QBing only has to do with what your own stats.
RE: Stop the Strawman nonsense  
Britt in VA : 8/22/2019 1:11 pm : link
In comment 14539385 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
When we take everyone's opinion and twist it to the ridiculous it makes discussion impossible.

I still say some of you are scared and it has to do with your pride about being right about the demise of Eli. I get it, it sucks to be publicly wrong. My position on Eli has evolved because I don't like to be wrong either. I had convinced myself Eli was toast. I was exhausted by the shitty football and every time there was a spot in the season where I hoped Eli would make a perfect throw and be the reason they won, he disappointed me. What I have seen at the end of last year and this preseason changed my mind. I adapt to new information and make changes on my positions.

Based on what Foles and Keenum have done in this system, with this OL and Barkley, with Eli in year 2 in the system and not having to force the ball in a certain direction I expect significant improvement in Eli's numbers from last year. If he goes 1 to 2% comp in comp and throws a few more TDs for a few more yards, that looks pretty good no? It isn't unreasonable. OBJ was not OBJ last year. Quite frankly the O looked better after he quit.

I think people are afraid of this because of the absolute positions some of them have taken on this board regarding Eli and would be unhappy with the fallout on BBI. That sucks.


+1000 and it spreads to every topic.
RE: I think part of my issue with the vague potential benefit  
bw in dc : 8/22/2019 1:17 pm : link
In comment 14539378 Bill L said:
Quote:
of playing Jones this for the sake of next year (even though, as repeatedly noted, there is no evidence to support any benefit), is that people are so willing to punt away this year without even seeing if we have a chance. I'll bet my last dollar that the root of it is an anti-Eli thing, but whatever.
To me, the willingness to intentionally lose, besides being unprincipled onits face, does a real disservice to everyone involved, players and fans alike. And to do it just because it fits the argument from your ego??? At least a disreputable boxer gets paid when he takes a dive.


Oh, please. This is a very common strategy - short term pain for long term gain. And it's playing the odds - Eli is an old 38 because he really doesn't have any plus-physical skills. As usual, alas, the EFC has to wrap this into either "people want to be right" or "people want Eli to fail" talking points. The real deal is my position is just less emotional and more about studying the %s under the conditions.

I'm sure you'll counter with his supposed plus-brain, but that plus-brain sure has produced a lot of bad decisions of the years and at this age many times the physical can't fire as quickly as the brain wants...

And as I mentioned earlier, there is an actual benefit to playing sooner rather than later - getting experience and exposure to real NFL game speed. You can't replicate that in practice or preseason.
Here is the quote  
Zeke's Alibi : 8/22/2019 1:18 pm : link
ďIt (gave) me a lot of positive energy, a lot of confidence going into this season that you know that you can have success against a really good defense,Ē he said. ďAnd so for me to know that and know what it took to have success on that game day is something I can build upon and keep getting better and better with.Ē

Imagine if Denver had something to play for in that game and he fucking stunk. Would he be saying man that game really killed my confidence and I knew I didn't belong in this league? No of course not. The article would be about him talking about how useful the experience was, etc etc. It is all just inane talking points that all these guys make during press conferences.

The article suggested that his play in that game may have kept the Chiefs from resigning Smith! That is absolutely unfounded garbage. You don't make a move like that in the first round for a QB and resign Alex fucking Smith. Most these articles are written just so these guys have something to write and people to read. Make the fanbase feel good.

Ok Zeke  
Jimmy Googs : 8/22/2019 1:21 pm : link
no worries as I read/see it differently
Appears as if those pesky anti-Eli posters are about to  
Jimmy Googs : 8/22/2019 1:26 pm : link
start taking some heat that this whole "getting Jones experience" thing is a smokescreen conspiracy.

where is that grassy knoll...

RE: Stop the Strawman nonsense  
bw in dc : 8/22/2019 1:27 pm : link
In comment 14539385 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:

I think people are afraid of this because of the absolute positions some of them have taken on this board regarding Eli and would be unhappy with the fallout on BBI. That sucks.


This is absurd. But I'm okay with absurd.

I think people who want to move on from Eli now are simply doing some math and noticing that the %s suggest we won't do well with Eli. So playing Eli is most likely just a hedge to allow Jones to get into his learning curve. And I say f-ck that, let's find out sooner rather than later with Jones...
I hear what you're..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/22/2019 1:27 pm : link
saying, but this just isn't something the data bears out:

Quote:
And as I mentioned earlier, there is an actual benefit to playing sooner rather than later - getting experience and exposure to real NFL game speed. You can't replicate that in practice or preseason.


Whether you learn on the field or learn on the sideline doesn't have a tangible benefit. You can point to First Round Year 1 QB's flopping from the get-go and ones that succeed from the start. You have guys who will start from Game 3 on and do well and others who start mid-year who flop. You have guys who sit for a year who start and don't have growing pains and you have ones that struggle and flop. But the data doesn't correlate in any one direction significantly.

For every anecdote about getting experience is one about shattering experience. For every anecdote about taking lumps to get stronger is one about taking lumps to get gun shy.

Most rookie QB's who start struggle. Some of them then make leaps in Year 2. Some of them don't. Many year 2 QB's come in and look very good. Some look terrible. That's why this debate is interesting - I'm ambivalent about when Jones gets playing time - but some of you are adamant he needs it.

But what is that based on??
RE: RE: Fucking ponderous contrarian  
ron mexico : 8/22/2019 1:32 pm : link
In comment 14539356 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
In comment 14539341 ron mexico said:


Quote:


just arguing to argue and using quotes unrelated to the discussion at hand made by others, which has become your go to tactic

To be honest, I face off against you because I think you usually bring good arguments to the table but you are just devolving into a troll.






Are you really calling me a contrarian?? What is the majority opinion I'm fighting? You can't even get your fucking terminology correct.

I will say it again - there has been no correlation to starting first round QB's Year 1 vs. sitting them to how quickly they develop. It is a neutral argument. And hell, some of it is skewed by players like Mark Sanchez who started immediately, had early success and saw a precipitous decline.

I'm saying that the data doesn't show that Year 1 experience leads to greater development. Full stop. I've already said that if eli struggles or the team is out of contention that I want to see Jones, but it isn't so that he gets essential experience to develop with - it is to move along from Eli and look at what we have for the future.

You can't prove that Year 1 experience is essential, so why do you keep acting as if it is?


Ok, I will try to make this my last post on this subject because I'm at my wits end.

Nothing can be proven because the NFL is not a science lab and every case is different but there is a fairly accepted truth that QBs need game experience to develop, even in the face of outliers like Mahomes.

Its not about year 1 vs year 2. Its about getting game experience. period. full stop.

That is a general point I am making that holds true for all teams and nearly all QBs.

Your contrarian take is that game experience isn't important to QBs development as you note here

"I want to see Jones, but it isn't so that he gets essential experience to develop with it is to move along from Eli and look at what we have for the future."

You (incorrectly) label me as a Eli hater and think I have an agenda against him but your reasoning for Jones playing is not his development but solely to move on from Eli?

Ponderous.





Fatman...I THINK it is important to get him some live bullets,  
Zeke's Alibi : 8/22/2019 1:32 pm : link
but I don't KNOW that. We have many posters on this thread claiming they know that without any data to back it up.
I am adamant he needs some of it this year  
Jimmy Googs : 8/22/2019 1:34 pm : link
but ambivalent as to when defaulting to the fact the team is tied for first right now with everybody else.

The importance imv for Jones to see some quality playing time in 2019 is it would allow for a higher level of confidence on what the team might be able to achieve with him at the helm in 2020.

There is arguments for both sides, but Brady didn't play, Rodgers didn  
Zeke's Alibi : 8/22/2019 1:35 pm : link
didn't play, Brees played a half, and Mahomes played one game. Staples of the best QBs in the game.
You are missing..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/22/2019 1:38 pm : link
a key point (or several):

Quote:
Nothing can be proven because the NFL is not a science lab and every case is different but there is a fairly accepted truth that QBs need game experience to develop, even in the face of outliers like Mahomes.

Its not about year 1 vs year 2. Its about getting game experience. period. full stop.

That is a general point I am making that holds true for all teams and nearly all QBs.


Mahomes is not an outlier, nor is game experience an indicator of development.

Mahomes is the latest, but certainly not the first QB to excel in Year 2. And there are several examples of first-round QB's who play immediately and fail - and never develop. What needs to be understood is development isn't linear - nor dependent on experience.

It is not a point that holds true for all teams and nearly all QB's. That's exactly what I'm refuting. And the data doesn't bear it out.
RE: Fatman...I THINK it is important to get him some live bullets,  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/22/2019 1:41 pm : link
In comment 14539422 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
but I don't KNOW that. We have many posters on this thread claiming they know that without any data to back it up.


Exactly! If you look at the starting QB's over the past 20 years, they come from a variety of different scenarios. Some start right away and flame out(Sanchez) or get injured (RGIII). Some struggle and then make strides. some sit and play well the following year and some sit and struggle.

What is confusing to me is that some of the posters arguing about Jones playing aren't doing it about experience - they are doing it from the aspect that he is better right now. So much for the needing experience argument!

If I'm going to state things as fact - I'd like to have data actually support it.
RE: RE: I think part of my issue with the vague potential benefit  
Bill L : 8/22/2019 1:43 pm : link
In comment 14539401 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14539378 Bill L said:


Quote:


of playing Jones this for the sake of next year (even though, as repeatedly noted, there is no evidence to support any benefit), is that people are so willing to punt away this year without even seeing if we have a chance. I'll bet my last dollar that the root of it is an anti-Eli thing, but whatever.
To me, the willingness to intentionally lose, besides being unprincipled onits face, does a real disservice to everyone involved, players and fans alike. And to do it just because it fits the argument from your ego??? At least a disreputable boxer gets paid when he takes a dive.



Oh, please. This is a very common strategy - short term pain for long term gain. And it's playing the odds - Eli is an old 38 because he really doesn't have any plus-physical skills. As usual, alas, the EFC has to wrap this into either "people want to be right" or "people want Eli to fail" talking points. The real deal is my position is just less emotional and more about studying the %s under the conditions.

I'm sure you'll counter with his supposed plus-brain, but that plus-brain sure has produced a lot of bad decisions of the years and at this age many times the physical can't fire as quickly as the brain wants...

And as I mentioned earlier, there is an actual benefit to playing sooner rather than later - getting experience and exposure to real NFL game speed. You can't replicate that in practice or preseason.
I'll take his brain over the lack of wildly overrated mobility wrt QB success any day of the week. And, until there is evidence that he (and his team) cannot succeed in 2019, then he's fully capable. If not, then you play Jones. But it's plain wrong to give up an entire season before it even begins.
RE: RE: RE: Eli playing well..  
Jimmy Googs : 8/22/2019 1:43 pm : link
In comment 14539139 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 14539116 ron mexico said:


Quote:


In comment 14539089 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


this year should benefit us all, yet I've read several comments that say any game eli plays, even if he plays well, delays Jones' growth.

Again - another take without evidence or merit.



The logic is extremely straight forward.

All young players, particularly QBs need game experience to improve. The sooner Jones can get that experience the better.

I'm sure you will find some obscure unattributed quote as a rebuttal, but this is pretty simple.

And no, I'm not suggesting putting Jones out there week 1



There is no special sauce to perfectly plan out starting level QB development as there are far too many variables at play. As mentioned on here numerous times, QB development is also typically not linear.

But plain common sense should lead most to support the view that not getting in-game experience as the starter will delay growth of the QB. While some may be able to overcome that delay and fast-forward their growth with less games when they ultimately get in, that would seem to be more the exception albeit fortunate.


Already noted the "linear" thing in the more verbose pithy post earlier.
And we have data on rookie QB's that disputes the fact that Jones  
Zeke's Alibi : 8/22/2019 1:46 pm : link
is better right now! The two best rookie seasons recently are about the output you get from Eli. So we are going to roll the dice and hope DJ puts one of the best rookie seasons up ever? And that isn't even a regular dice, thats one of those nerd dices that is 20 sided they use in dungeons and dragons.

The only way it would make sense to me is if the oline was in shambles. It isn't anymore.
And if the oline is in shambles I'd rather trot Eli out there and when  
Zeke's Alibi : 8/22/2019 1:50 pm : link
he inevitably looked "bad" throw DJ in with the confidence that a HOFer can't make this offense work so anything I get done is a positive.
FMiC...  
bw in dc : 8/22/2019 1:53 pm : link
I wouldn't say I'm adamant. Just less concerned about the downside.

For me, it boils down to the game being more QB friendly than ever and I think Jones adds more dimensions to Shurmur's playbook. So let's accelerate the process.

Remember, Jints Central has told us all along that one of Jones's best attributes is his mental toughness. Supposedly he has the right stuff. Well, let's put that to the test. Perhaps he truly has the make-up to deal with volatility of being a rookie QB.

Maybe we go with QBBC. Give them both reps in a game. ;)
I'd actually..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/22/2019 1:55 pm : link
worry that if the OL was in shambles that Jones could end up losing confidence due to getting pummeled.

And that's another factor. If experience were so valuable in development, any experience would be good experience, and that just isn't the case. You really have a lengthy list of 1st round QB's getting a lot of 1st season playing time who never developed or are considered busts:
- Locker
- Manuel
- Losman
- Ponder
- Boller
- Lynch
- Harrington
- David Carr
- Grossman
- Manziel
- Young
- Freeman
- Bradford

If experience were key to development, that list would be shorter. You can make as good of an argument that those QB's played far too soon.
RE: You are missing..  
Thegratefulhead : 8/22/2019 1:58 pm : link
In comment 14539429 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
a key point (or several):



Quote:


Nothing can be proven because the NFL is not a science lab and every case is different but there is a fairly accepted truth that QBs need game experience to develop, even in the face of outliers like Mahomes.

Its not about year 1 vs year 2. Its about getting game experience. period. full stop.

That is a general point I am making that holds true for all teams and nearly all QBs.



Mahomes is not an outlier, nor is game experience an indicator of development.

Mahomes is the latest, but certainly not the first QB to excel in Year 2. And there are several examples of first-round QB's who play immediately and fail - and never develop. What needs to be understood is development isn't linear - nor dependent on experience.

It is not a point that holds true for all teams and nearly all QB's. That's exactly what I'm refuting. And the data doesn't bear it out.
EXACTLY! We don't know the best way and it is very likely situational. In our situation I believe the Giants are handling things the right way. I think the players have bought in to the plan. The coaches seem on board unless you want to zero in on a tiny part of a presser and twist it to create a narrative that fits your position. Eli is a 2 time winning SB MVP QB that appears to have a lively arm and looks solid in camp. He gets as many reps as he wants until he proves he doesn't deserve them. We will all know when it is time for Jones to start. The Giants will hear it too. You can't rush the transition. This is the way things go for QBs that have accomplished what Eli has. It seems unrealistic to suspect there is a mandate for Eli to keep starting if he sucks because the owner said so when they just drafted a QB at 6.
RE: I'd actually..  
bw in dc : 8/22/2019 2:01 pm : link
In comment 14539460 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:

And that's another factor. If experience were so valuable in development, any experience would be good experience, and that just isn't the case. You really have a lengthy list of 1st round QB's getting a lot of 1st season playing time who never developed or are considered busts:
- Locker
- Manuel
- Losman
- Ponder
- Boller
- Lynch
- Harrington
- David Carr
- Grossman
- Manziel
- Young
- Freeman
- Bradford

If experience were key to development, that list would be shorter. You can make as good of an argument that those QB's played far too soon.


Or those QBs just got found out to be bad investments. Or bad investments plus bad situations (teams, coaches, etc). Proving that the QB selection process is what it's always been for his selections - an absolute coin toss.

So it's not going to be a guarantee one way or the other.

Which brings me back to the point - why wait?

I think the argument..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/22/2019 2:08 pm : link
to waiting is one Bill L makes.

Why give up on a season before it starts? And Zeke mentions how Jones would need to have a historically good rookie season to match what Eli will likely do.

I also agree that the list of QB's above could indicate poor selections, but we'll never know about some if they were in different situations. Would Carr have been better? What about Bradford?

I'd flip it around and say why rush Jones? I'm not tied to either approach. I think you play Eli until we are out of contention, but I'm not adamant about it. Seems to me there are some that are adamant to get Jones experience no matter what though. And that's hard to support.
RE: You are missing..  
ron mexico : 8/22/2019 2:10 pm : link
In comment 14539429 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
a key point (or several):



Quote:


Nothing can be proven because the NFL is not a science lab and every case is different but there is a fairly accepted truth that QBs need game experience to develop, even in the face of outliers like Mahomes.

Its not about year 1 vs year 2. Its about getting game experience. period. full stop.

That is a general point I am making that holds true for all teams and nearly all QBs.



nor is game experience an indicator of development.



thats an clever way to to twist what I wrote.

You are probably right that I wont be able to plots games started vs QB rating and get a high R2 score, and if I did you would probably come back with some pedantic argument about QB rating. (I'm sure Gatorate Dunk will be happy to explain R2 to you if needed)

But I seriously don't know how you can refute this.

QBs need game experience to develop
You wait if you're a coach taking it one year at a time  
Jimmy Googs : 8/22/2019 2:12 pm : link
or an optimistic fan rubbing your lucky rabbit's foot.

If your already looking past 2019 and just want to use it as a 20 game preseason, you don't wait.
LOL..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/22/2019 2:14 pm : link
If someone wonders why arguments are circular, just look at this:

Quote:
But I seriously don't know how you can refute this.

QBs need game experience to develop


I've literally spent the past several posts showing that game experience is not essential for development. And Mahomes isn't a unicorn.

Are you fucking kidding me?

Phillip Rivers sat for 2 years.  
Britt in VA : 8/22/2019 2:16 pm : link
Aaron Rodgers sat for 3.
Huh?  
Big Blue '56 : 8/22/2019 2:18 pm : link
Googs:

Quote:


If your already looking past 2019 and just want to use it as a 20 game preseason, you don't wait.



Thatís one helluva leap youíre attributing to the Giants. No way, shape, manner, or form are they treating this season as a warmup for 2020.
How is it not?  
ron mexico : 8/22/2019 2:18 pm : link
Isn't the reason you are calling fro Eli to start because he is the experienced vet? Was he that guy year 1 or year 2?

You never hear of QBs making a leap from year to year? what is that based on if not game experience?

RE: How is it not?  
Britt in VA : 8/22/2019 2:21 pm : link
In comment 14539495 ron mexico said:
Quote:
Isn't the reason you are calling fro Eli to start because he is the experienced vet? Was he that guy year 1 or year 2?

You never hear of QBs making a leap from year to year? what is that based on if not game experience?


Eli is starting because he gives them the best chance to win, RIGHT NOW.

Eli started on the bench because they thought Warner gave them that chance. They also wanted Kerry Collins to do it but he refused. Eli was inserted when Warner was no longer helping them win games.
OK Ron  
Thegratefulhead : 8/22/2019 2:23 pm : link
I agree with the premise that a year of starting is very LIKELY better than not. How much? I don't know and it is situational, every situation is different. I think if the day they drafted Jones they said it would be an open and Eli is on notice it would have impacted the team negatively and put even more pressure on Jones with circus that would have ensued. When you consider all of the circumstance surrounding the Giants and the pick of Jones and the what are doing serves the Giants well in both the short and long term. The only negative to handling things the way they are is the loss of year one experience for Jones that we cannot quantify, it is an unknown.

Jones, Eli, the team and coaches all seem cool with the plan. It is a good plan. Eli will not start all year if he sucks, Jones is no Webb. Chill man, take it easy.

Don't worry about a ting'
Every little ting' gonna be alright.
I agree that Eli gives them the best chance to win now  
ron mexico : 8/22/2019 2:23 pm : link
he gives them the best chance because he has 15 years of EXPERIENCE!
If it is absolutely essential..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/22/2019 2:26 pm : link
for QB's to have game experience to develop, you wouldn't see Dak Prescott or Lamar Jackson coming in as unrefined players hitting the ground running (somewhat literally).

You wouldn't have numerous examples of a guy with very little game experience coming in year 2 or 3 and being excellent, whether it is Rivers, Rodgers, Mahomes, Brady.

If game experience was absolutely essential, low draft picks like Kirk Cousins wouldn't step onto the field when injury to a starter happens and play well.

And it isn't an absolute here. Only a fool would say that experience never helps guys - but to call it essential or that players NEED experience, there are so many examples in both directions that refute it.

You've apparently ignored all of them,so I wonder why that may be.....
RE: If it is absolutely essential..  
Thegratefulhead : 8/22/2019 2:30 pm : link
In comment 14539506 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
are so many examples in both directions that refute it.

You've apparently ignored all of them,so I wonder why that may be.....
He decided to die on this mountain. So be it.
RE: Huh?  
Jimmy Googs : 8/22/2019 2:31 pm : link
In comment 14539494 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
Googs:



Quote:




If your already looking past 2019 and just want to use it as a 20 game preseason, you don't wait.





Thatís one helluva leap youíre attributing to the Giants. No way, shape, manner, or form are they treating this season as a warmup for 2020.


No, you misinterpreted it. I know the Giants are not.
If it's not experience that makes players better  
ron mexico : 8/22/2019 2:44 pm : link
than what is it?

Even in you examples, Brady wasn't the player in 2002 he was in 2007

You are being overly pedantic using absolutes like need or essential.

But if you want to hold on to the theory that experience isn't very important to the vast majority of players that's fine. I'll just make sure to remind you when you are calling posters fucksticks for complaing about Jones growing pains when he eventually gets his shot.
I like cheese  
dep026 : 8/22/2019 2:45 pm : link
.
This is real simple....  
Britt in VA : 8/22/2019 2:50 pm : link
rookies have been coming in and sitting behind established veterans going back decades.

In high school football, you have the established player at the position while you groom his successor. Same in college. Same in the NFL.

This practice is as old as the game itself.
RE: If it's not experience that makes players better  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/22/2019 2:52 pm : link
In comment 14539523 ron mexico said:
Quote:
than what is it?

Even in you examples, Brady wasn't the player in 2002 he was in 2007

You are being overly pedantic using absolutes like need or essential.

But if you want to hold on to the theory that experience isn't very important to the vast majority of players that's fine. I'll just make sure to remind you when you are calling posters fucksticks for complaing about Jones growing pains when he eventually gets his shot.


When I call you dim, trace it back to posts like this.

My entire argument has been to refute that there are absolutes. Starting with the premise that it is essential for Jones to play this year to develop.

You seemingly haven't grasped the points I've made that development, especially early in a career isn't tied specifically to one method or another, and the data bears that out.

So you are either not grasping them because you are dim or because you're being willfully ignorant. You can choose whichever option makes you look the best.....
RE: This is real simple....  
bw in dc : 8/22/2019 3:06 pm : link
In comment 14539535 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
rookies have been coming in and sitting behind established veterans going back decades.

In high school football, you have the established player at the position while you groom his successor. Same in college. Same in the NFL.

This practice is as old as the game itself.


This is old and stale thinking.

We are in a cap era where hitting on a rookie QB's contract is gold. The trickle down impact is huge. It opens up considerably more investment options. So you can't look at this through a traditional lens.

The league is built now for instant QB success. It's never been easier - ever - to jump from college to the pros, especially with the pro game adopting more elements of the college game. Hell, the high school has adopted pro elements. So much so that I think Trevor Lawrence could have been ready to play in a pro game right out of high school.

It's a great, great time to be bold...
You made it about absolutes  
ron mexico : 8/22/2019 3:07 pm : link
Your usuall tactic to twist others arguments

I never said it was essential that jones plays year one. I said it would be better to start the process sooner. Maybe I used the word preferred

Even when I say players need experience, it's pretty clear to a rational person I wasn't talking about 100% of the population.

Since its "6 to 5 and pick em" whether game experience helps  
Jimmy Googs : 8/22/2019 3:09 pm : link
we really should want Jones to sit until Eli retires.

Is there really more than that?
RE: I am adamant he needs some of it this year  
Brown_Hornet : 8/22/2019 3:26 pm : link
In comment 14539423 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
but ambivalent as to when defaulting to the fact the team is tied for first right now with everybody else.

The importance imv for Jones to see some quality playing time in 2019 is it would allow for a higher level of confidence on what the team might be able to achieve with him at the helm in 2020.
I disagree. There's no reason to believe that Jones' confidence will be higher in 2020 due to playing some in 2019.

Well okay...familiarity typically breeds some confidence  
Jimmy Googs : 8/22/2019 3:36 pm : link
but if you don't think so than so be it.

And I didn't say just Jones' confidence...
RE: RE: I am adamant he needs some of it this year  
bw in dc : 8/22/2019 4:15 pm : link
In comment 14539591 Brown_Hornet said:
Quote:

I disagree. There's no reason to believe that Jones' confidence will be higher in 2020 due to playing some in 2019.


No reason? Sure there is.

If you stick with conventional wisdom that the game is going to slow down going into year two, which you essentially here all the time from QBs after playing their first year, then it's more than reasonable extrapolate out that confidence will improve.
I also get the impression that people think  
Bill L : 8/22/2019 4:19 pm : link
that if Jones isn't playing, then he must be vacationing. That there's no practice or film work or anything like that. Or maybe none of that matters?
RE: I also get the impression that people think  
ron mexico : 8/22/2019 4:23 pm : link
In comment 14539627 Bill L said:
Quote:
that if Jones isn't playing, then he must be vacationing. That there's no practice or film work or anything like that. Or maybe none of that matters?


he is definitely practicing, but probably not getting any significant reps unless running the scout team.

Film work will help his learning but there is no replacement for live game reps. I know that is a controversial take.



RE: You made it about absolutes  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/22/2019 4:29 pm : link
In comment 14539558 ron mexico said:
Quote:
Your usuall tactic to twist others arguments

I never said it was essential that jones plays year one. I said it would be better to start the process sooner. Maybe I used the word preferred

Even when I say players need experience, it's pretty clear to a rational person I wasn't talking about 100% of the population.


What argument am I twisting?? I can show examples of good experience being gained vs. bad experience being gained, so it is not essential to play a rookie to get him game experience and it can absolutely be detrimental to development.

Hell, even the term experience is being blurred here - because earlier in the thread it most definitely was meant the experience gained in year 1 vs. sitting him. Now it is turning into the experience over an entire body of work. So who is twisting what now?

There's even a counter to the point that experience develops players in the long-term. Tell me how much experience helped Mark Sanchez. How is it helping Jameis Winston? What about Case Keenum? Did getting experience help Colin Kaep develop?

The argument started out that if Jones doesn't play this year, his development will be delayed. And that point has still yet to be proven. That isn't twisting any words - it still isn't proven.
RE: RE: I also get the impression that people think  
Bill L : 8/22/2019 4:30 pm : link
In comment 14539636 ron mexico said:
Quote:
In comment 14539627 Bill L said:


Quote:


that if Jones isn't playing, then he must be vacationing. That there's no practice or film work or anything like that. Or maybe none of that matters?



he is definitely practicing, but probably not getting any significant reps unless running the scout team.

Film work will help his learning but there is no replacement for live game reps. I know that is a controversial take.




But it's not nothing either. And, given the unreliability of whether throwing someone into the fire works or not, it would seem valuable to mention *all* forms of development available to him. And I'm not at all sure that throwing 2019 games for the sake of speculative 2020 improvement does all that much. I think a win is still one game in either season.
The fact that people think game time wont help him  
ron mexico : 8/22/2019 4:52 pm : link
assume he will either be a flat out bust or will light the world on fire from the get go.

I'm willing to wager that he will fall someone in between there.

Since Pedant in Carolina thew out a list of players for his side of the argument, allow me to put out a list of players with bad to mediocre starts who developed into pretty damn good players

Let me start of the list with Eli Manning - no back up necessary

Drew Brees - 8-8 starting year 2 with 205 yards per game and 76 rating

Tony Romo in his third year went 6-4 with 19 tds and 13 ints, 180 yards per game

Big Ben - we all argue how pedestrian he was his first year despite the team record

Alex Smith had a rough start but wound up having a 15 year career with a 66% winning percentage

Kirk Cousins who fatman has on his side of the ledger had a very good first game against what I'm guessing was a terrible browns team but actually went 2-7 over the first three years with a QB rating if 41 and 52 in year 2 and three

Joe Montana went 2-5 in his first real action year 2 throwing for 120 yards a game

Peyton Manning threw 28 ints his first year

I could go on and on and on , but I guess these guys are just outliers



So we do get 2 wins per game next year  
Bill L : 8/22/2019 4:55 pm : link
Versus one this year?
Sigh..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/22/2019 5:01 pm : link
you really don't even seem to grasp what the discussion was.

The premise is that if Jones doesn't play this year, his development will be delayed. It is as basic as that.

And it is an unprovable point.

RE: Sigh..  
ron mexico : 8/22/2019 5:07 pm : link
In comment 14539671 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
you really don't even seem to grasp what the discussion was.

The premise is that if Jones doesn't play this year, his development will be delayed. It is as basic as that.

And it is an unprovable point.


of course its unprovable you pedant.

How could I possibly prove it?

But history shows that most QBs have growing pains when they start playing and improve with experience.

Of course some, maybe even most, never make it to what we like to call franchise QB. But even that is useful information to the franchise playing them.



RE: Sigh..  
bw in dc : 8/22/2019 5:40 pm : link
In comment 14539671 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
you really don't even seem to grasp what the discussion was.

The premise is that if Jones doesn't play this year, his development will be delayed. It is as basic as that.

And it is an unprovable point.


Let's try it this way - it be not be delayed, but is could be accelerated, true?
RE: RE: Sigh..  
bw in dc : 8/22/2019 5:43 pm : link
In comment 14539707 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14539671 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


you really don't even seem to grasp what the discussion was.

The premise is that if Jones doesn't play this year, his development will be delayed. It is as basic as that.

And it is an unprovable point.




Let's try it this way - it be not be delayed, but is could be accelerated, true?


Geesh - should read: it may not be delayed, but it could be accelerated, true?
No, its unproven every which way you look at it  
Jimmy Googs : 8/22/2019 5:54 pm : link
There are just as many instances of young QBs playing early in their careers that have helped them versus hindered them.

In addition, there are just as many instances of young QBs not playing early in their careers that have helped them versus hindered them.

It 6 to 5 and pick em' so flip the coin and tell Jones whether he should suit up tonight or not.

Nice try BW  
ron mexico : 8/22/2019 6:00 pm : link
But I doubt the attorney who advises Fats on his post will allow him to answer that question.
Valiant effort  
dep026 : 8/22/2019 6:04 pm : link
From the 3 stooges.
RE: Valiant effort  
ron mexico : 8/22/2019 6:09 pm : link
In comment 14539720 dep026 said:
Quote:
From the 3 stooges.


Why don't you go back to ganging up on the autistic kid in the OBJ thread. That's more your speed.
.  
arcarsenal : 8/22/2019 6:14 pm : link
Still with this thread? Jeezus.
RE: RE: Valiant effort  
Jimmy Googs : 8/22/2019 6:24 pm : link
In comment 14539724 ron mexico said:
Quote:
In comment 14539720 dep026 said:


Quote:


From the 3 stooges.



Why don't you go back to ganging up on the autistic kid in the OBJ thread.


Not sure I could tell the difference actually...
Looks like...  
bw in dc : 8/22/2019 6:24 pm : link
the signal has been received and the gang is almost all here.

Absolutely super!
RE: RE: RE: Sigh..  
Bill L : 8/22/2019 6:25 pm : link
In comment 14539710 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14539707 bw in dc said:


Quote:


In comment 14539671 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


you really don't even seem to grasp what the discussion was.

The premise is that if Jones doesn't play this year, his development will be delayed. It is as basic as that.

And it is an unprovable point.




Let's try it this way - it be not be delayed, but is could be accelerated, true?



Geesh - should read: it may not be delayed, but it could be accelerated, true?

At the unnecessary expense of a season with no tangible benefit.
RE: RE: Valiant effort  
dep026 : 8/22/2019 6:25 pm : link
In comment 14539724 ron mexico said:
Quote:
In comment 14539720 dep026 said:


Quote:


From the 3 stooges.



Why don't you go back to ganging up on the autistic kid in the OBJ thread. That's more your speed.


Youíre making fun of a disability? Christ thatís more of a Les in TO thing.... but reaching scumbag levels entices all I suppose. Thatís more on your ďradarĒ I suppose.
RE: Looks like...  
dep026 : 8/22/2019 6:26 pm : link
In comment 14539735 bw in dc said:
Quote:
the signal has been received and the gang is almost all here.

Absolutely super!


You 3 dimwits have been here all day. Just need Santa to finish off the crew.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Sigh..  
bw in dc : 8/22/2019 6:27 pm : link
In comment 14539736 Bill L said:
Quote:

At the unnecessary expense of a season with no tangible benefit.


That's the pessimistic view.

As the optimist among us, I think it could be pay dirt with Jones. ;)
RE: RE: RE: Valiant effort  
ron mexico : 8/22/2019 6:32 pm : link
In comment 14539737 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 14539724 ron mexico said:


Quote:


In comment 14539720 dep026 said:


Quote:


From the 3 stooges.



Why don't you go back to ganging up on the autistic kid in the OBJ thread. That's more your speed.



Youíre making fun of a disability? Christ thatís more of a Les in TO thing.... but reaching scumbag levels entices all I suppose. Thatís more on your ďradarĒ I suppose.


I'm not making fun of shit, rover admitted he's on the spectrum and you fucking shit stains still pick on him
RE: Looks like...  
arcarsenal : 8/22/2019 6:33 pm : link
In comment 14539735 bw in dc said:
Quote:
the signal has been received and the gang is almost all here.

Absolutely super!


LOL, nah - I already voiced my opinion on this topic. None of you guys are changing each other's minds here - it looks like hours were spent debating this and it went nowhere. I didn't even read the posts, really. A little skim and that was all. I just see this thread near the top of the forum any time I refresh the page and there's 300+ posts on it now. So, obviously everyone's still going.

I just don't think it's a one-size-fits-all thing when it comes to when to start a rookie QB. I think it just depends on the player. It depends on the type of offense he's coming from, the school, the coaching he's had, what he still needs to work on, etc.

I think allowing Eli to start the season with the understanding that if he isn't winning games, he's getting a quick hook is a pretty fair way to approach this. I wouldn't sit him if we start 0-1... but I also wouldn't wait until something like 2-6.

Eli is starting with the expectation that he needs to win. We all know that. If Jones sits for the first 4-5 weeks of his rookie career, it's not going to do anything to hinder his development.

And if Jones is sitting longer than that, it should mean the Giants are above .500 and firmly in the mix in the NFC. I don't expect this scenario, but I would not be upset with Eli continuing to play should that turn out to be the case.

I don't think anyone should really be angry if the Giants are sitting 2-3 games over .500 come the halfway point of the season and Eli is having a bit of a resurgence.

When the time comes, Daniel will be ready.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Valiant effort  
dep026 : 8/22/2019 6:37 pm : link
In comment 14539745 ron mexico said:
Quote:



I'm not making fun of shit, rover admitted he's on the spectrum and you fucking shit stains still pick on him


Lol, sure. Just make it known about his disability. Classy. And I donít discriminate on who I pick on. It could be rover, a bad fan, or the three stooges. I treat all of them the same.

Now go get ready for the Tae-Tae concert with your bosom buddies. You guys did great work today.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Sigh..  
Bill L : 8/22/2019 6:46 pm : link
In comment 14539736 Bill L said:
Quote:
In comment 14539710 bw in dc said:


Quote:


In comment 14539707 bw in dc said:


Quote:


In comment 14539671 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


you really don't even seem to grasp what the discussion was.

The premise is that if Jones doesn't play this year, his development will be delayed. It is as basic as that.

And it is an unprovable point.




Let's try it this way - it be not be delayed, but is could be accelerated, true?



Geesh - should read: it may not be delayed, but it could be accelerated, true?


At the unnecessary expense of a season with no tangible benefit.

I know you know that we will win more with the incumbent. And, if, or when, we canít we can see how Jones can spark us. It only is that what the plan actually is, itís the most sensible one.
Ok, with that I'm out  
ron mexico : 8/22/2019 6:55 pm : link
Enjoy the game fellas

...  
christian : 8/22/2019 6:55 pm : link
Playing a QB is not only about experience for him, it's about reps with him, and the component parts that might compliment him well that need to be added or subtracted.

The Giants have a good opportunity to upgrade the roster in the 2020 offseason via UFA, and they absolutely should be building that team around Jones.

I'd suspect Accorsi approached the UFA period in 2005 with a grocery list of what would compliment Manning. He got a big, wingspan receiver and a right, not left tackle.

The Giants aren't fielding a train wreck of a team where Jones is going to get destroyed. Gettleman is fielding a component line, a fabulous half back, and a professional (if uninspiring) WR core.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Valiant effort  
Jimmy Googs : 8/22/2019 7:00 pm : link
In comment 14539754 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 14539745 ron mexico said:


Quote:





I'm not making fun of shit, rover admitted he's on the spectrum and you fucking shit stains still pick on him



Lol, sure. Just make it known about his disability. Classy. And I donít discriminate on who I pick on. It could be rover, a bad fan, or the three stooges. I treat all of them the same.

Now go get ready for the Tae-Tae concert with your bosom buddies. You guys did great work today.


Yeah, you sound like a super guy...
Thanks!  
dep026 : 8/22/2019 7:05 pm : link
I appreciate the sentiment.
Really seems like Shurmur wants to start Jones  
Prude : 8/23/2019 12:11 am : link
He even mentioned that there are 3 weeks until Dallas when asked if he would consider starting Jones.
RE: RE: Looks like...  
bw in dc : 8/23/2019 12:40 am : link
In comment 14539747 arcarsenal said:
Quote:


I think allowing Eli to start the season with the understanding that if he isn't winning games, he's getting a quick hook is a pretty fair way to approach this. I wouldn't sit him if we start 0-1... but I also wouldn't wait until something like 2-6.



Do you think that's been declared internally with Eli? Or are they going to sort of make it up as they go?
RE: RE: RE: Looks like...  
Prude : 8/23/2019 12:51 am : link
In comment 14540815 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14539747 arcarsenal said:


Quote:




I think allowing Eli to start the season with the understanding that if he isn't winning games, he's getting a quick hook is a pretty fair way to approach this. I wouldn't sit him if we start 0-1... but I also wouldn't wait until something like 2-6.





Do you think that's been declared internally with Eli? Or are they going to sort of make it up as they go?



I think that public opinion among the fans is going to be a much bigger factor than anyone is talking about. They really shit the bed last time and I don't think they make a move without MOST fans on board. You are going to see a lot of leaks and rumors that Shurmur wants to start Jones coming out to try and gauge what fans think.

RE: Nice try BW  
bw in dc : 8/23/2019 1:18 am : link
In comment 14539719 ron mexico said:
Quote:
But I doubt the attorney who advises Fats on his post will allow him to answer that question.


Just saw this. That is very funny.

Youíve got to hand it to Fat-Mara. Heís building for the future. Taking his disciples - arc, dep, Bill, Brit et al - under his wing and teaching them his methods. Each of them with their assigned roles in the meantime...
RE: RE: RE: RE: Looks like...  
bw in dc : 8/23/2019 1:29 am : link
In comment 14540816 Prude said:
Quote:


I think that public opinion among the fans is going to be a much bigger factor than anyone is talking about. They really shit the bed last time and I don't think they make a move without MOST fans on board. You are going to see a lot of leaks and rumors that Shurmur wants to start Jones coming out to try and gauge what fans think.


I said earlier that if you gave Shurmur a shot of Sodium Pentothal right now he would confess that Jones is indeed his choice.

But heís got no leverage on this. Mara wrote and owns the delegations of authority. And theyíve been tightened up since the catastrophe Mara created with the drama with Eli in Geno Gate. Despite what Mara said last week with his goofy, phony presser, Shurmur calls no final shots on Eli. He can only recommend.

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