https://www.businessinsider.com/disney-world-expensive-middle-class-2018-12
I remember when our kids were little in the 79s & 80s, my wife and I could easily afford to take them to Disneyland any time we wanted to.
A young family today with three kids is not getting off for less than $700 a day after tickets, food and a few "cheap" toys and hats.
I think that it's more than artificially trying to keep the crowds down; the real targets are the lower middle class and the poor.
It's supply and demand, and anecdotally, Disney has done nothing to keep crows down, in fact quite the opposite. that place is brutally crowded.
70s and 80s.
I've come to the realization that many of our companies who are run by so-called "experts" are not so well-run after. The NFL is another example.
Honestly, I have zero interest in being anywhere that crowded. I've been to Disney twice, both times during the deadest part of the year, and there were still too many people there for me.
Disney is charging what the market will bear, and in their case it will bear quite a lot. Like I said in my post about the upcoming Disney plus service, Disney is so totally ingrained into American society that not embracing all things Disney is practically child abuse. I have never met a family with children that didn't have a stack of Disney DVD's and Disney toys. If they or their grandparents have a discretionary dollar to spend, a trip to Disney is planned as if its a religious pilgrimage.
This is nothing new either. When I was child in the 60's the Wonderfull World of Color was required viewing. Back then Walt Disney himself would promote the latest happenings at Disneyland. Its incredible that they've been able to be this good for this long.
LOL
Median household income was under $62k. I don't know how many families with small children whose household income is below $62k should be spending $700/day on theme park experiences. Heck, it's hard to get by in some places with small children if your household income is $112k, which again, isn't really middle class.
The thing is that if you're raising children on $112k in many parts of the country you probably FEEL like middle class, or maybe even lower-middle class.
People may not like the movies, but they are an absolute gold mines. The real life redeux have been box office hits. And I expect frozen 2 to be near the highest grossing film ever.
Nope.
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to get Ron in Ninerland's take on all this...
Sorry about that. There was documented problem with the CF at the time I was posting. I kept getting an error when I tried to post, I'd check the thread and my comments weren't there, so I kept trying.
No worries, just having some fun
well played
This.
Too bad the airline and cruise industry haven't adopted this model.
I don't want to become the Disney defender here, but they are probably having their most profitable year (at least in box office revenue) in my lifetime. Add in the massive expansions to multiple parks around the globe and the launching of a streaming service, that will most likely take a massive bite out of the market share, and I just don't see how you can say they regressed in their professional capabilities.
Disney has spent ALOT of money in the past few years, between the IP acquisitions and the major park expansions and upgrades. It makes sense that they chose this time to raise the park prices as well as pushing out their live action remakes - which are pretty much cash grabs.
WDW hits its 50th aniversary in 2023 - that's when all the expansions should be finished. If their animation studios still hasn't produced new quality original movies by then - it time to worry.
The ROI paradigm for entertainment changed so quickly there were massive downstream impacts in terms of attracting/promoting/resourcing the talented people in those industries more than anything else (marketing and entertainment audiences are inextricably linked and were explosively fragmented). Tech cos efficiently sucked up the fragmented audiences along with most of the dollars that used to fund the "good marketing" and "good content" while scattering the "good talent" who used to do both all over the place. Btw there's still good marketing by the definition of more efficiently selling things to people, it's just not as entertaining because instead of millions spent against tv commercials in a public domain it's an algorithm, tracking pixel, or retargeting mechanism we don't see.
In some ways it's leveled playing fields for small upstarts who are smart but in other ways it killed off certain species the same way there's no such thing as a shutdown corner anymore. Big brands still spend on big marketing campaigns the same way big studios still spend on blockbuster movies the same way corners are still highly paid, but it's just a different world.
The Lion King, Toy Story, Frozen, and they are starting a massive internet streaming service soon. I'm going to have to disagree with that. They have actually been so succesful I can't believe they haven't been cited for monopolistic practices. Actually I can, this country bows down to it's multinational overlords now.
Having said that - is there any entertainment that's not ridiculously overpriced relative to a decade or two ago? Not sporting events. Not concert tickets. Movies are not cheap, but they're probably the closest thing to a "bargain" relative to past pricing. I don't know if their pricing has gone off the rails, or if they're just like everything else discretionary, priced high because people are willing to pay it.
A few weeks ago we were down there and did 2 days hitting Epcot and Magic Kingdom. All of our prior trips had been in Feb/March or November, during slow times. This was the first time I’ve been there during the summer, and I’ll never do it again. Outside of the baby rides, wait times ranged from 2-4 hours, it was impossible to navigate the stroller and if it wasn’t thunder storming it was 95 w/ 95 % humidity. That’s not even bringing up the price...
I won’t say we’ll never go back because of the convenience to my parents house, but I definitely won’t go back during peak times.
I’m amazed at how much time and $ people are willing to spend to wait in long lines for mediocre rides and poor quality, over priced food.
I caught your yoigism
Sports tickets went up because you had a lot more corporate players in the game buying tickets, driving up price.
The Lion King, Toy Story, Frozen, and they are starting a massive internet streaming service soon. I'm going to have to disagree with that. They have actually been so succesful I can't believe they haven't been cited for monopolistic practices. Actually I can, this country bows down to it's multinational overlords now.
Monopolistic? In what way? There are many other theme park options: Universal, Six Flags, Cedar Point, etc, etc.
He used a Disney credit card and racked up major points by charging his children's college tuition. Unfortunately he managed to do this up to next to last year of his one child's last year.
And he managed to buy park hopper passes when it was easier to use the last day of those of others before they started to regulate them.
Can only ponder what he has spent to date.
Something like half the people in the country don't have $5,000 to cover an emergency, and no real savings for retirement, often because they spent it on Walt Dizzy attractions or cell phones or cruises to the Caribbean or something else that they don't need.
In that way, the movie and TV businesses have never been so "successful." (Games too? I don't follow that business so much.) They produce a lot of disposable crap, but it's predictably profitable disposable crap. They're perfectly happy with that. If you're judging by artistic quality, well, they're not. They're not opposed to artistry as long as it can be achieved at a price and it doesn't interfere with returns. Nothing too risky, nothing too out-there. There more expensive the project, the safer the creative approach.
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also add the movie and marketing industries, both which have significantly regressed in their professional capabilities.
Nope.
Yup.
See, I can throw out uneducated, unfounded bullshit too!
And marketing? Just dreadful. They made better and more effective commercials decades ago.
Those who can't see it don't want to accept it.
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also add the movie and marketing industries, both which have significantly regressed in their professional capabilities.
The Lion King, Toy Story, Frozen, and they are starting a massive internet streaming service soon. I'm going to have to disagree with that. They have actually been so succesful I can't believe they haven't been cited for monopolistic practices. Actually I can, this country bows down to it's multinational overlords now.
Not to mention since they’ve acquired Fox’s properties, a reboot of Home Alone nobody ever asked for. Also a reboot of Pirates of the Caribbean among others.
But yeah, the industry has been completely on the front lines of creativity recently.
And marketing? Just dreadful. They made better and more effective commercials decades ago.
Those who can't see it don't want to accept it.
100% agree.
The lack of original ideas is pathetic.
And marketing? Just dreadful. They made better and more effective commercials decades ago.
Those who can't see it don't want to accept it.
Sorry Eric, you sound like an old man. The acting ability of today’s actors, and the amount of them dwarf what we’ve seen in prior decades. Sorry they aren’t pumping out enough WWI movies to wet your whistle.
And the marketing is working, hence the amount of blockbusters.
There’s 2 industries and you seem to lump them both together. Blockbuster which are annoying after a while and then all the other great, lower budget films with exception writing and acting.
Movies are shit now. They keep coming out with remakes, reboots, sequels, God knows how many super hero movies (they've ruined the genre for me), and and endless and bland action films catered to not culturally offend overseas audiences, particularly in China (who has way too much influence in Hollywood).
It's boring. It's lazy.
When ticket and concession prices go through the roof, of course the $$$ figures still look good. And our population is larger than ever. But don't tell me the movies are better than ever. That's absurd.
People remember things like "Where's the beef?", "Don't squeeze the Charmin," "I'd like to buy the world a Coke," etc.
Now it's just bland, boring, and unforgettable.
And marvel movies are well made. I personally don’t care for most of them but getting angry about them being made is absurd. They make money and it allows studios to take chances on smaller projects.
But again, you keep limping in Marvel with A24 and I don’t know why. And if you don’t know what A24 is I suggest checking them out, they put out amazing content.
Remember when the radio used to be good? Well, the radio sucks now but music is still great, tons of innovative artists that don’t get airtime. It is the exact same as the movies, most can’t afford to be in them if the profit is t turning.
But it's endless now. You don't have to take my word on it. Many have done pieces on how boring and bland everything is getting, including music. There was a recent Spanish study on how music has regressed and AI can now predict which music will be popular based on current trends.
I just can't believe that anyone who has seen how many remakes have come out every year for the past decades can't see how lazy Hollywood has become.
As for Disney they're one of the most successful companies in almost every metric. LMAO saying they're not run well right now.
No, it's not. They just aren't good at it. Sometimes you can't even tell what they are selling or promoting. Even the Super Bowl commercials are uninspiring now.
I don't think the universities are preparing people to be very creative. Or the industries are afraid to use create people. It's all corporate blandness now.
As for Disney they're one of the most successful companies in almost every metric. LMAO saying they're not run well right now.
Yeah, Disney has done a fantastic job with Star Wars.
Everything is bland.
Disney price is $159 for a day during peak times - it goes down per day if you go for multiple days. That's up to 15 hours some days and many people take advantage of much or all of that time. That price includes rides, shows, meeting the characters if you want.
My wife is going to see Billy Joel at Fenway and I paid $202 per ticket with the ridiculous ticketmaster fees.
that is for about a 3 hour concert.
Have concerts abandoned the middle class?
Movies are what? $15 for 90 -120 minutes (I seriously have no idea)? similar scale as Disney - slightly less, That's over $100 relative to Disney.
Sporting Events? Bruins tickets also over $150 each for average seats with fees and that doesn't include parking.
like I said in my initial post - it's all about supply and demand.
And the "abandoning the middle class" is a myth perpetrated by politicians.
They already remade Psycho, Pink Panther, Arthur, Footloose, etc. When's Gone with Wind, Godfather, Casablanca?
People remember things like "Where's the beef?", "Don't squeeze the Charmin," "I'd like to buy the world a Coke," etc.
Now it's just bland, boring, and unforgettable.
Cadbury has been running the same ad for it’s chocolate eggs every Easter season since I can remember.
It’s as perfect now as it was then.
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The industry now is the same as always. Reboots have been made since Hollywood existed. The original movies made have been re-packaged hundreds of times over it's not anything new. Also there's plenty of original stuff as well but if you don't want to seek it out then it's on you for being lazy.
As for Disney they're one of the most successful companies in almost every metric. LMAO saying they're not run well right now.
Yeah, Disney has done a fantastic job with Star Wars.
The #1 domestic movie of all time. They did fine. You didn't complain about Return of the Jedi?
People remember things like "Where's the beef?", "Don't squeeze the Charmin," "I'd like to buy the world a Coke," etc.
Now it's just bland, boring, and unforgettable.
This is a great point.
I often wonder how effective some ads even are or if companies even care.
A lot of times people don't even know what the commercial was for since it has nothing to do with the product.
Miller Lite commercials were classic
Energizer Bunny
Heinz ketchup (anticipation)
Oscar Meyer
Hey Kool-Aid
I'm sure there are more...
Doesn’t mean their music doesn’t suck that much more shit.
1. People have mini movie theaters in their homes now, unlike the decades before, when 20-inch square screens running on tubes were the best people had in their homes.
2. You can tell richer, longer, deeper, sprawling stories in episodic television than you can in a 2-hour movie. That attracts good storytellers now more than the tight limits of cinema.
It's pretty hard to say that "Hollywood sucks" in the age of The Sopranos, The Wire, Breaking Bad, Game of Thrones, and on and on. Television never saw anything like those shows before the mid-1990s.
As for Disney, I'm actually pretty excited to see what they do with their live-action Star Wars TV series (The Mandalorian, the Cassian Andor series, the rumored Obi-Wan Kenobi series). Getting out of the restrictive "Skywalker saga trilogy" model might be just the kickstart they need.
The small upstarts I was referencing were on the non-content creator end - the small biz/startup brands who have been smart using social media / influencers for a fraction of the cost of what big brands were/are spending on big media. A lot of interesting businesses succeeded that way, some massively so in ways that just wouldn't have been possible without generating huge followings through non-traditional channels (think halo top).
There are a few small upstarts on the marketing/entertainment content creation side but more have sank than swam.
Disney Land/World has always been THE place to take the children (happiest place on earth) etc.
Like I said, back-in-the-day, it wasn't painful. I remember even big families could pull-it-off, once-in-a-while. These days, forget it.
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re: commercials. I am convinced that some of these companies could run the same ads from the 1970s-1980s and still be more effective.
People remember things like "Where's the beef?", "Don't squeeze the Charmin," "I'd like to buy the world a Coke," etc.
Now it's just bland, boring, and unforgettable.
This is a great point.
I often wonder how effective some ads even are or if companies even care.
A lot of times people don't even know what the commercial was for since it has nothing to do with the product.
Miller Lite commercials were classic
Energizer Bunny
Heinz ketchup (anticipation)
Oscar Meyer
Hey Kool-Aid
I'm sure there are more...
People remembered ads like those back then because an exponentially higher number of engaged people who actually saw those ads and paid attention to them in the first place. When there were a handful of channels people watch, and no such thing as DVR, no ad free platforms like netflix, and no such thing as a cell phone you could browse at the slightest whiff of boredom, it was a lot easier to get people to remember things.
They've quantified it scientifically and humans are being inundated with some 1000's of more ads every single day (in way more mediums). There was no way for recall to keep pace, nor was there any way to maintain the level of quality in a medium whose real impact stretched thin due to cable + DVR long ago. I don't remember where I heard this but here's an analogy - if you think back to whenever you first got email, every new email was a big deal. People actually wrote each other long form messages. Now we all get at least 20-30 spam emails a day, if not more, that get paid 0 attention and are easily ignored either through spam filters/tabs that weed them out or just by our brains being programmed to search for the 1 out of every 30 emails we care about in the slightest. For over a decade ad space on tv has been just as watered down as email marketing is today (which is why prime time ad spends have been falling for 20+ years). Is the quality of the ad content discernibly worse? Maybe, but not sure how anyone would know or if it matters because like marketing emails and trees alone in the forrest, most commercials go virtually unseen/unengaged with.
Disney Land/World has always been THE place to take the children (happiest place on earth) etc.
Like I said, back-in-the-day, it wasn't painful. I remember even big families could pull-it-off, once-in-a-while. These days, forget it.
we're talking 70's/80's for peak commercials.
Data does not support your post.
today maybe some of what you say is true, but what about the 20+ years from 1990 - 2010
and live TV is still the dominant form of TV watching even for Gen Z and millennials. though the time spent is down from the past as you say.
No idea how email is relevant, my kids (gen z) don't even really use email and probably won't as a productivity tool so spam emails that don't get seen by them are not something I'd expect traditional advertisers to consider.
Plus, we're really talking things like Super Bowl ads, etc. not ads during Ellen or mid-day talk shows an those same ads are now an "event".
but IMO the quality HAS decreased and I don't think it's even controversial to say so.
we're talking 70's/80's for peak commercials.
Data does not support your post.
Your post is subscribing to the "most watched SB ever" press releases the NFL pumps out year after year despite the rating shares peaking in the 70's/80's. The population has gone up so sure total viewers have increased. And with exponentially more channels maybe total time spent too - but it's all way more fractured. Saturation + captive viewership is what led to engagement and value. Which occurred pre-cable. The 90's (and early 2000's) were the last gasp of the advertising golden age on TV. Then live sports got a mini golden age because they were "DVR proof", that's mostly worn off though they are still the best alternative because there aren't very many ways to achieve mass. I can assure you the business of TV did not peak after 2010 no matter what pr numbers are put out to keep capturing the biggest slice of the pie possible.
Occasionally you'll see a gem. But the best commercials are often made in other countries for their markets.
I'm dead serious. If I ran one of these big companies, I would run the old commercials today. Same ones. I guarantee they would get 100x the attention, just from a novelty perspective.
But the movie industry has made the strategic decision to focus on overseas markets, so the story telling has been minimalized while the explosions have been increased.
Disney whistleblower told SEC the company inflated revenue for years - ( New Window )
Do you really think people just forgot how to write? It’s no different than how analytics have become entrenched in sports - many think baseball stinks now while I think the forward thinking new age approach is smart and fun. You don’t have to like the current commercials, but the why is important - they don’t care about you, you aren’t their target audience.
And it has nothing to do with my age. I'm 51, not 80.
Yes, the point of my original comments are these people today are WORSE at their jobs. They are dumber and lazier.
You're using a lot of nice verbiage in your responses, but the ads aren't better. They are worse. And I don't expect the advertising community to produce material explaining their failures. So of course you are going to hear all of this bunk about what a great job they are doing. Bullshit.
Years ago, you had the classic VW "da da da" ad. I bet you they sold a ton of cars because of it. I can't even remember the last VW ad (for the American market) that caught my attention.
Do you really think people just forgot how to write? It’s no different than how analytics have become entrenched in sports - many think baseball stinks now while I think the forward thinking new age approach is smart and fun. You don’t have to like the current commercials, but the why is important - they don’t care about you, you aren’t their target audience.
You seem to be ignoring the fact that even while digital ad /marketing techniques are outpacing traditional TV ad spends, there is still 70+ billion dollars a year spent on traditional TV ads.
Do you really expect people to believe those ads are not intended to "sell" products or services but are simply meant to attract buyers some other bland/unimaginative way?
You also seem to ignore the fact hat 2019 is the first year that non-traditional TV advertising is not the #1 advertising spend on the planet (a trend expected to revert in 2020 - with the election and olympics). What happened until now, when traditional TV ad was still #1.
Bland and boring. And lazy copycats.
Do you really think people just forgot how to write? It’s no different than how analytics have become entrenched in sports - many think baseball stinks now while I think the forward thinking new age approach is smart and fun. You don’t have to like the current commercials, but the why is important - they don’t care about you, you aren’t their target audience.
You seem to be ignoring the fact that even while digital ad /marketing techniques are outpacing traditional TV ad spends, there is still 70+ billion dollars a year spent on traditional TV ads.
Do you really expect people to believe those ads are not intended to "sell" products or services but are simply meant to attract buyers some other bland/unimaginative way?
You also seem to ignore the fact hat 2019 is the first year that non-traditional TV advertising is not the #1 advertising spend on the planet (a trend expected to revert in 2020 - with the election and olympics). What happened until now, when traditional TV ad was still #1.
Live entertainment has definitely evolved to attract the rich, as in home entertainment has gotten resoundingly impressive, and attracted more middle class dollars. Nevermind the amazing content available on Netflix for instance (at the cost of 4 Blockbuster rentals a month) -- the cost per square inch for the best TVs is 1.50, and was 5+ dollars 20 years ago.
You see this in movie theaters, with fewer seats, recliners, and food service. Those who choose live entertainment want it really nice and are willing to spend.
But the movie industry has made the strategic decision to focus on overseas markets, so the story telling has been minimalized while the explosions have been increased.
like every other industry. It's really that simple. There's still a slight convergence around making high quality movies and making money, but the free market has dictated that the biggest budgets would go to the safest, broadest, franchisiest movies possible and audiences have rewarded it. And yes, a big part of that is global audiences because their money counts too.
It's the same reason football has more scoring, commercials, and side bs than ever before. Broad, safe, maximize $.
All forms of entertainment had/have enormous value and market forces place enormous pressure to pump it from all angles for everything it's worth. MLB is adding patches on uniforms within a few years. I believe Nielsen today estimated their worth around $11m in exposure for a brand. Haven't seen any estimates on the % of fans it will annoy or how much lifetime value it will jeopardize, but who cares? In 10 years it will be someone else's problem.
As for ads, we disagree on the why. I’m not suggesting ads are high quality, I’m suggesting that the money is spent on rebranding, frequency and specific targeting. So yeah thats probably at the cost of spending more time making an ad that impresses you but it works. You being impressed with a Subaru commercial isn’t going to make you buy a Subaru - I’m sure you’d much rather read consumer reports, Kelly Blue Book, etc. The goal is to plant the idea that you want/need a new car, then hop online for research, then they hook you with the real ads that work.
By the way, in one post you claim Hollywood has run out of ideas and another you say they cater to the overseas market - so which is it?
So I’m not ignoring anything, I’m simply pointing out that “bad” is subjective and there’s more to an ad campaign than just a TV commercial. It’s the internet age, ads don’t work the same way as they did 40 or even 20 years ago.
I worked on a branding campaign last year for a cage free egg company. They spent a fortune on their ad campaign. The made a corny TV ad for the sole purpose of pumping it out through youtube and social media. It worked. The social engagement was high and their coupon downloads exceeded expectations. That’s advertising now.
I would argue the FIRST goal of advertising is get you to notice.... to have you look up and watch the commercial. If it doesn't do that, the advertiser has failed.
There is no contradiction in what I said about the international market and lack of ideas. They are separate concepts that are fueling the boring blandness. Cultural concepts in storytelling that sell here don't often sell in China, India, Japan, etc. So the movies are "dumbed down" and the easiest way to do that is the mindless action flick. In addition to that, you have an epidemic of copying now. Look at the the last Star Wars triology. The first is the same movie as the New Hope. It's the same damn movie with new characters. It's like they aren't even trying now.
Modern music really does sound the same - ( New Window )
Not discussing online ads, but TV ads.
Why do you keep bringing up Star Wars. It’s 1 franchise that they will continue to pump because it makes money. It doesn’t mean writing for SciFi now sucks. Have you seen Ex Machina, Moon, Children of Men and the plethora of others? I’m guessing if you did they all suck and if you didn’t you won’t admit it.
I grew up on Rambo and Rocky too. I watched all the awful 80’s action movies and loved them. But they are awful, we just didn’t notice back then because it’s all there was.
But I seem to have struck a nerve here with you.
We'll just agree to disagree and move on.
For movies there’s an ocean of content that goes relatively unnoticed because of how hard it is to turn a profit. Most of these movies can’t afford the premiums that come with taking up a movie screen the weekend Toy Story 4 comes out. A24, Blumhouse, and a handful of others have found a way to make low budget movies pretty damn impressive while turning a profit.
As for Rambo, the last one was probably the best and Stallone is still an icon so that’s an easy moneymaker. Ryan Coogler, an impressive young director spearheaded Creed and made that arguably the best addition to the franchise. That was after 4 or 5 straight garbage additions to that series.
If a ticket to Disneyworld was suddenly $30, the demand would sky rocket but the amount of tickets they could sell would not change. Then you would just have the parks filled to capacity every day which dilutes the experience. It will also likely create some sort of after-market demand that will probably put the prices right back where they are now.
The ticket prices are very high, but that is not because of a business model with a discriminatory agenda. It's because that is what the market will pay.
If a ticket to Disneyworld was suddenly $30, the demand would sky rocket but the amount of tickets they could sell would not change. Then you would just have the parks filled to capacity every day which dilutes the experience. It will also likely create some sort of after-market demand that will probably put the prices right back where they are now.
The ticket prices are very high, but that is not because of a business model with a discriminatory agenda. It's because that is what the market will pay.
If a ticket to Disneyworld was suddenly $30, the demand would sky rocket but the amount of tickets they could sell would not change. Then you would just have the parks filled to capacity every day which dilutes the experience. It will also likely create some sort of after-market demand that will probably put the prices right back where they are now.
The ticket prices are very high, but that is not because of a business model with a discriminatory agenda. It's because that is what the market will pay.
I don't think anyone is disagreeing with that... they are merely pointing out what was originally intended for a different audience is changing to a a richer audience.
And while that existed the previous trip, back in 2011, it was not so central to the experience. The difference between Disney and the Six Flags and Busch Gardens of the world was that once you got into Disney you did not feel as though you were being soaked again at every turn. That seems to be slowly turning too.
Fast Pass is free, MaxPass costs $15. Did I miss something?
And while that existed the previous trip, back in 2011, it was not so central to the experience. The difference between Disney and the Six Flags and Busch Gardens of the world was that once you got into Disney you did not feel as though you were being soaked again at every turn. That seems to be slowly turning too.
FastPass is free with admission.
MaxPass is a Disneyland only thing - doesn’t exist at DisneyWorld. Staying at a Disney resort lets you book your Fastpasses farther in advance, but it doesn’t give you any extra ones.
You've summarized the salient point of the discussion very well.
If they wanted to they could be like pro arenas or airports and make people pay through the nose for every one of those things. They do inflate the prices of their on-site properties, but at least for Disneyland there are numerous other options.
Also like someone else said above I think the problem is less Disney-specific and more to the larger point that there's less disposable income for things like Disney. As a kid my family went to disney world a couple times since we were on the east coast and similar to now I don't think it was ever the cheapest vacation option. Based on my memory then and my more recent experience as a parent it's still one of the most fun experience for kids of a bunch of different ages. And in terms of daily cost (let's call it $150 per person + hotel/travel/food) my recent experience was that it was a solid value based on it delivering a really good experience in the park. Some of that time was off peak and some of it was during the busier summer days and was surprised that it was similarly manageable.
Agree - and in my judgement it's hard to find a better experience (esp for kids) for less than the $75 pp per day (length of stay is obviously flexible). That's the same as a ticket to any sports event or concert (which are both over in a matter of hours and a lot less entertaining for most kids). Or slightly more than lesser theme parks. At Halloween there are crappy pumpkin patches in parking lots that cost $20pp + paying more for single ride tickets for any of the inflatable or jerry rigged "rides".
We spent as much on a week trip to Austin/San Antonio in June (with a day and half stop at Schlitterbahn as we did on a 5 day trip to Disney last year....and that includes actually spending 3 of the nights at my brother's house in Austin. Oh, and the lines for the main attractions at Schlitterbahn were 2 1/2 - 3 hours starting right at 9 AM. Likewise the ever-popular renting a house at an obnoxious Jersey shore point, food, boardwalk, etc...not hard to average out at $500-600/day+ just to sit on the beach all day elbows to assholes with people.
As far as the parks themselves a lot depends on your mentality going in. If you treat it like a teenage boy at Six Flags trying to hit everything over and over you'll inevitably be disappointed. If you treat it like visiting a popular tourist city/country and actually do some legwork and research to tailor the experience to your family, while avoiding the rest, you'll make out much better. There's an unlimited amount of information out there. I do think at some point they're going to face some hard decisions with some of the older attractions as they'll start to lose relevance with future generations. The live character adaptations of the animated movies (which have all been pretty excellent) will buy them some time though with that part of it.
Their operational execution is astounding as well as the general cleanliness and customer service considering the fact that it's an international cultural Mecca for youth. My wife works for a very large healthcare company and they send people in droves every year for seminars Disney offers on their philosophy and approach.
I think that number is closer to $400...it certainly isn't as high as $5000.
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re: commercials. I am convinced that some of these companies could run the same ads from the 1970s-1980s and still be more effective.
People remember things like "Where's the beef?", "Don't squeeze the Charmin," "I'd like to buy the world a Coke," etc.
Now it's just bland, boring, and unforgettable.
This is a great point.
I often wonder how effective some ads even are or if companies even care.
A lot of times people don't even know what the commercial was for since it has nothing to do with the product.
Miller Lite commercials were classic
Energizer Bunny
Heinz ketchup (anticipation)
Oscar Meyer
Hey Kool-Aid
I'm sure there are more...
Schultz and Dooley for Utica Club beer!
Based on the 45 minutes of research I've pieced together thus far, tickets for 3 days are going to run me somewhere in the vicinity of $1600. Add another few hundred for the 1 day I'm asusuming we'll shoot over to Universal Studios.
Flights are basically on the arm (been banking the AmEx points for this for some time).
Accomodations will be about $1k -- we are renting a pretty cool house off-premises about 15 minutes away with my wife's other siblings and their families.
Add in food/beverage/souvenirs/etc and I'll probably be in for $5-6k when all is said and done.
I'm grateful that we can afford to do it, and I'm excited for it, but it most definitely represents the 'big vacation' for the year.
Based on the 45 minutes of research I've pieced together thus far, tickets for 3 days are going to run me somewhere in the vicinity of $1600. Add another few hundred for the 1 day I'm asusuming we'll shoot over to Universal Studios.
Flights are basically on the arm (been banking the AmEx points for this for some time).
Accomodations will be about $1k -- we are renting a pretty cool house off-premises about 15 minutes away with my wife's other siblings and their families.
Add in food/beverage/souvenirs/etc and I'll probably be in for $5-6k when all is said and done.
I'm grateful that we can afford to do it, and I'm excited for it, but it most definitely represents the 'big vacation' for the year.
We're also planning on taking our kids at the end of January next year. The last time we went was when my oldest was 4 and now she's 8 with her brother being 4 and her sister being 1. I know that my kids will enjoy the shit out of it, and that's really the most important thing.
And to add to the ongoing discussions on other terrible Disney products, etc. My kids have absolutely enjoyed getting to watch Marvel movies. They're for entertainment purposes, and people are being entertained. We forget that aspect when we pine of the past like it was some golden age of anything. Bleh.
Shit like Skyscraper and The Wall I can absolutely do without, those are definitely made for the Asian markets. But I just don't go to them. Instead I'll look into the endless library of Indie movies that are streaming or will go to a boutique theater to check something out. There's a ton of great stuff no one has or will ever see.
Shit like Skyscraper and The Wall I can absolutely do without, those are definitely made for the Asian markets. But I just don't go to them. Instead I'll look into the endless library of Indie movies that are streaming or will go to a boutique theater to check something out. There's a ton of great stuff no one has or will ever see.
And I agree with you that acting today is far better than back in the day. We can talk about all the great creative ideas from the past, but they still were shitty creative ideas with so many plot holes and other nonsenses that we just overlooked.
Today, some of the smaller studio movies are amazing pieces of cinematic art.
In the end though, movies are all subjective.
Movies are shit now. They keep coming out with remakes, reboots, sequels, God knows how many super hero movies (they've ruined the genre for me), and and endless and bland action films catered to not culturally offend overseas audiences, particularly in China (who has way too much influence in Hollywood).
It's boring. It's lazy.
When ticket and concession prices go through the roof, of course the $$$ figures still look good. And our population is larger than ever. But don't tell me the movies are better than ever. That's absurd.
This is mostly incorrect. Yes, there are more reboots and cash-cow type films than ever, but it doesn't mean the good movies have just disappeared. Not to over-simplify it, but if you go to Rotten Tomatoes' "Best of the Year" lists, yes you'll have a couple super hero movies sprinkled in, but you'll also see a ton of films that you'd never have heard of if you only went by the commercials you saw.
In fact, I think it's fair to say that--in a round-about way--the influx of cookie-cutter super hero films is beneficial to film making. Reason being, these studios love toting their resume when they have a bunch of Oscar-nominated/award-heavy movies. But much of the time, those movies don't make very much money, and that's if they're lucky enough to not lose money. But when the studios have the super hero movies pulling in literally billions of dollars, they're far more inclined to take the loss on the good films, produce them, and then pat themselves on the back for having critically acclaimed cinema in their portfolios. Without the influx of cash, the studios wouldn't give the true creators the liberty to create authentic film. They'd push for the movies to, simply be, what sells.. and then we wouldn't have some of the best movies that have been made over the last decade.
Based on the 45 minutes of research I've pieced together thus far, tickets for 3 days are going to run me somewhere in the vicinity of $1600. Add another few hundred for the 1 day I'm asusuming we'll shoot over to Universal Studios.
Flights are basically on the arm (been banking the AmEx points for this for some time).
Accomodations will be about $1k -- we are renting a pretty cool house off-premises about 15 minutes away with my wife's other siblings and their families.
Add in food/beverage/souvenirs/etc and I'll probably be in for $5-6k when all is said and done.
I'm grateful that we can afford to do it, and I'm excited for it, but it most definitely represents the 'big vacation' for the year.
You shut your suckhole!
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in conjunction with a trip to Florida for my sister-in-law's wedding. Me, wife, and 3 kids (one will only be about 8 months old, so really 2 kids).
Based on the 45 minutes of research I've pieced together thus far, tickets for 3 days are going to run me somewhere in the vicinity of $1600. Add another few hundred for the 1 day I'm asusuming we'll shoot over to Universal Studios.
Flights are basically on the arm (been banking the AmEx points for this for some time).
Accomodations will be about $1k -- we are renting a pretty cool house off-premises about 15 minutes away with my wife's other siblings and their families.
Add in food/beverage/souvenirs/etc and I'll probably be in for $5-6k when all is said and done.
I'm grateful that we can afford to do it, and I'm excited for it, but it most definitely represents the 'big vacation' for the year.
Your estimate for the price of tickets may be a tad high. Right now Disney is offering a discount for tickets with the restriction that you don't show up before 12 N. Since you're staying at a house off site and you have an 8 month old, you're probably not getting there before 12 Noon. A 3 day adult pass will run you about $250.00. Kids under 10 are less and the 8 mo old will be free.
Thank you, Ron! - something I need to find a few minutes to look at later!
I do the same for my two older ones whenever we take them out to the movies (well, one parent since the other stays home with the baby). It's not a bad deal with all things being considered on how expensive things can get in trying to have fun with kids for a few hours when you just want to relax in a climate controlled place.
Of course the quality appears to have diminished. There are 700+ feature films released in the US per year these days, and that number was near 100 in 1980.
Of course actors appear to "act better" in 2019. Look at the technology we have and the resources available to actors.
Aye aye, sir, corporal don't know.
So complaining about concession prices is kinda pointless. It isn't mandatory, and you don't "need" it. My kid likes popcorn (which we split) and I bring in water bottle for her. Doesn't need to be anything more than that, IMO. I'm in/out for about $20 with her on a weekend morning.
Having said that - is there any entertainment that's not ridiculously overpriced relative to a decade or two ago? Not sporting events. Not concert tickets. Movies are not cheap, but they're probably the closest thing to a "bargain" relative to past pricing. I don't know if their pricing has gone off the rails, or if they're just like everything else discretionary, priced high because people are willing to pay it.
Define overpriced. If something is priced to a level that no one is buying it, that's overpriced. If it's even priced to the point where there is distressed inventory, it's overpriced.
If a service/product/attraction is selling to full capacity (and doing so far in advance), it's not overpriced. If anything, it's underpriced, purely in terms of pricing.
Just because something isn't necessarily affordable for everyone doesn't make it overpriced, as long as the seller has identified enough customers who can afford it.
This (along with the examples you listed) is simply a function of demand far outpacing supply.
Even if Disney decided to use its theme parks as a loss leader and price their entry fee in such a way that it was accessible to every income level, the demand would surge to an extent that it wouldn't result in any additional people gaining access, just (potentially) different people. And it would remain out of reach of others because there just isn't enough supply to satisfy demand.
And if they then reacted to that by increasing supply (without any infrastructure changes), the customer experience would suffer. Or they could make capital improvements to help increase their supply level, but remember, we just slashed prices to help make the theme parks affordable. I guess we'll have to increase those prices back up to generate enough revenue to allow those improvements to be self-liquidating.
Pricing is a balance. A lot of people fall on the wrong side of that balance because a lot of what they want are luxury items that they probably can't really afford. It's no fun to be on the wrong side of the balance, but it doesn't mean those things are overpriced.
Not at all. If you're a kid, cartoons are way better today. Non-network TV is way better.
I'll stick with what I said...movies, music, advertising have deteriorated.
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yawn...
Not at all. If you're a kid, cartoons are way better today. Non-network TV is way better.
I'll stick with what I said...movies, music, advertising have deteriorated.
Advertising hasn't deteriorated that much - look at how many people complain about wanting things they feel like they can't afford!
No, there is actual measurable proof. I doubt you will really take the 12 minutes to actually watch this, but if you do, you will see what I'm talking about.
The Death of Melody - ( New Window )
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since time immemorial. If the first instrument was a dude banging two rocks together and the next generation came up with banging sticks on rocks the guy banging rocks together would bitch about how music sucks now.
No, there is actual measurable proof. I doubt you will really take the 12 minutes to actually watch this, but if you do, you will see what I'm talking about. The Death of Melody - ( New Window )
He referenced songs that were hitting the top of the charts. Chart toppers are practically inconsequential now due to the dearth of options available. It isn't 1985 where the number 1 on the charts was universally known by every single person in the country (recent exception Old Town Road). Everyone my age or younger uses Spotify. I wouldn't be surprised that the death of melody comes at a time when pop music is just used as background music at bars and clubs. Something easy to digest, you can sing along with, and hypnotic. I don't really listen to modern rap, but that is an art form that doesn't rely on melody at all. If melody is what you are searching for there is a ton of it out there.
I actually clicked your link and shockingly (not really) most of what's in there is comparing today's pop music with yesterdays top musicians like Led Zeppelin. You are once again confusing what's popular with what's actually out there, and not only that, but you aren't even discussing the utter trash music that has existed in any era.
I don't care for pop music, but there's other genres out there that are great, that didn't exist even a decade ago, let along 30/40 years ago. Does that not count for anything? Why is pop music the benchmark of your argument? It wouldn't have anything to do with you broadstroke "hollywood" argument, would it?
Here's a song with some melody by a local Brooklyn band....take 4 minutes to listen to it and tell me that melody is still dead in today's music (the video is a bit odd though).
Sonsick by San Fermin - ( New Window )
They are always testing their price elasticity and any dips in attendance or usually due to factors other than price. Weather, alligators, etc
Disney gets about 65 million visitors per year. They are not all upper class. It is a destination that people choose to save $$ for.
Wow. How creative! There's a tiny bit of decent stuff out there. But by and large, woof. Hollywood certainly is not in it's most creative, inventive, or even just good quality time period for these last however many years it's been now. It can rebound when someone comes up with something original that's good, but man, it's been awhile since that's happened. Hoping that happens sooner than later. I love going to the movies, and there's barely a reason to go these days. And I'm not even one of those people that have a big problem with movie ticket prices or anything like that.
I will say, this is the one area where competition doesn't benefit the consumer. In Orlando...Disney, Universal and Sea World are all horrifically expensive. Universal alone wanted $750 just to take my family of 4 for the day and that didn't include their line skipping option.
I will say, this is the one area where competition doesn't benefit the consumer. In Orlando...Disney, Universal and Sea World are all horrifically expensive. Universal alone wanted $750 just to take my family of 4 for the day and that didn't include their line skipping option.
Is it any more an issue than people who live and die with their favorite sports team(s)?
And yes it is a way of life for some(a lot) of people and I mean a way of life - I know a few.
As far as I am concerned, the fast pass thing should go away.
He woke up the next afternoon and saw an email receipt and had vague recollections of it.
he actually wears out in the summer sometimes and I will say it's a legit conversation starter - though he did have some regerts.
I will say, this is the one area where competition doesn't benefit the consumer. In Orlando...Disney, Universal and Sea World are all horrifically expensive. Universal alone wanted $750 just to take my family of 4 for the day and that didn't include their line skipping option.
This is me. I love Disney, I admit it.
For all, and there is no charge. It is now an app that allows you to sign up for a designated slot with a 10 minute window. People with needs have their own access(I believe they use the Fast Pass line.(?)
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those with special needs, right? Or is it available to anyone willing to pony up?
For all, and there is no charge. It is now an app that allows you to sign up for a designated slot with a 10 minute window. People with needs have their own access(I believe they use the Fast Pass line.(?)
People with special needs can get a return time at any attraction, not just those with Fastpass. The return time is based on the current wait time for the attraction.
I may have to remortgage my house to pay for the trip.
And yes it is a way of life for some(a lot) of people and I mean a way of life - I know a few.
As far as I am concerned, the fast pass thing should go away.
They are the exact same thing and I've said that all along. Both Disney-fanatics and sports-fanatics ruin it for the rest of us. When you don't think with your wallet and don't hold these companies to any sort of standard, they will continue to grind out profit at any cost.
I may have to remortgage my house to pay for the trip.
Second time, we drove. I was fucking Griswold, 5 of us, Binghamton to Orlando.
Was actually a great vacation, because I PLANNED THE FUCK out of that trip.
Each day, I'd be up early, scrubbing the park map, figuring out the best way to use fastpasses - back then, they were available to EVERYONE. New, classist systems are against the spirit of the park. Should be OUTLAWED, man!
My youngest on that second trip - Billy was 9 and REFUSED to go on anything remotely threatening. So I literally dragged him kicking and screaming across the parks, from Space Mountain to the Aerosmith coaster - he even tried to back out of the Haunted Mansion, and every damned time - 10 seconds into the ride, he's hootin and hollerin and loving it, would want to get right back in line afterward!
Then it would be the same thing heading to the next ride. I literally had bruises on my legs and arms from the little shit, but I wasn't going to let him miss it.
So - fair warning. If they're ride wimps, they'll drive you nuts.
Also - BE PREPARED if you're not used to 100 degrees, 100% humidity. Those parks are a gauntlet if you're not in shape.
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Is it any more an issue than people who live and die with their favorite sports team(s)?
And yes it is a way of life for some(a lot) of people and I mean a way of life - I know a few.
As far as I am concerned, the fast pass thing should go away.
They are the exact same thing and I've said that all along. Both Disney-fanatics and sports-fanatics ruin it for the rest of us. When you don't think with your wallet and don't hold these companies to any sort of standard, they will continue to grind out profit at any cost.
Whether or not you realize it, you probably "ruin it" for someone else with whatever things you enjoy beyond a rational level. It could be a pizza place that you order from more often than your neighbors, thereby keeping the pizza place from needing to put out a coupon. It could be a store that you shop in that would have to run a sale if it wasn't for the clothes you buy.
It's impossible to price in a way that disregards the most avid customer because they're still going to beat you to the purchase at a lower price too. If it wasn't price elasticity, it would be willingness to wait in line, and if it wasn't that, it would be something else. The people who want something more than you do will find a way to buy it, even if it means that it has a ripple effect that deprives others of access.
The flip side to all of that is that frugal consumers can just as easily "ruin it" for others by allowing businesses to close, or causing businesses to produce less inventory, etc. A lot of times a band books a venue and puts one (or two or however many) performances on sale, with optional performances hidden behind it. If sales are slow, those optional performances never happen; if sales are strong, the optionals go on sale to the public. When a band you'd like to see never puts on those optional shows, who did the ruining?
Water seeks its own level, and so does consumerism.
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In comment 14537989 Matt M. said:
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those with special needs, right? Or is it available to anyone willing to pony up?
For all, and there is no charge. It is now an app that allows you to sign up for a designated slot with a 10 minute window. People with needs have their own access(I believe they use the Fast Pass line.(?)
People with special needs can get a return time at any attraction, not just those with Fastpass. The return time is based on the current wait time for the attraction.
That's consistent across most large theme parks, and was very helpful for my wife for the rides she was able to undertake.
It's impossible to price in a way that disregards the most avid customer because they're still going to beat you to the purchase at a lower price too. If it wasn't price elasticity, it would be willingness to wait in line, and if it wasn't that, it would be something else. The people who want something more than you do will find a way to buy it, even if it means that it has a ripple effect that deprives others of access.
The flip side to all of that is that frugal consumers can just as easily "ruin it" for others by allowing businesses to close, or causing businesses to produce less inventory, etc. A lot of times a band books a venue and puts one (or two or however many) performances on sale, with optional performances hidden behind it. If sales are slow, those optional performances never happen; if sales are strong, the optionals go on sale to the public. When a band you'd like to see never puts on those optional shows, who did the ruining?
Water seeks its own level, and so does consumerism.
I guess my point is, these consumers will complain about X,Y or Z...yet they don't actually do anything to force companies to change.
Over the past couple decades, Disney has become significantly (and insanely) more expensive while cutting the product. Disney in 2000 is NOT the same product as Disney today. Visitors will bitch and complain but at the end of the day they still fork over their cash and allow the company to do as they please. It's this blind loyalty that hurts us all.
If the majority of Disney's consumer base became frugal, the company would have no choice but to lower prices and/or offer a better product. But just like a drug-dealer with addicted clients, there is a sub-set of the customer base who will go at any cost. While purely anecdotal, I know a couple families who can barely support themselves financially, yet they visit Disney annually. It's somewhat mind-blowing.
I can take or leave Disney but when it’s time to bring my now 4 year old I will deal with the bullshit because she’s going to be over the moon about going. I’m also not opposed to going in October during a school week when Disney is at its cheapest and slowest 2-3 weeks of the year.
There hasn't been very many meaningful attraction openings in the past 10 years. Resort pools shut-down at 10pm nightly, etc, etc. I could go on and on. Even Disney is indirectly acknowledging the lack of product as they have invested heavily to add attractions over the next 3-5 years.
- Which is the point of the article -
The economy is doing well, more people can afford to go, which is good for business, sort-of ...
Customers have to wait in unending lines at the rides (this dilutes the experience, especially for the deep-pocket folks, who have plenty of other entertainment choices).
The choice is easy, boost the prices, keeping the "unwashed masses" away; carefully move toward a "gourmet" experience (eliminating the elbow-to-elbow aggravation) and make a ton of money.
- Which is the point of the article -
The economy is doing well, more people can afford to go, which is good for business, sort-of ...
Customers have to wait in unending lines at the rides (this dilutes the experience, especially for the deep-pocket folks, who have plenty of other entertainment choices).
The choice is easy, boost the prices, keeping the "unwashed masses" away; carefully move toward a "gourmet" experience (eliminating the elbow-to-elbow aggravation) and make a ton of money.
Wrong.
It's knowing that you have a finite amount of product to sell and pricing that product so that your demand curve only slightly outpaces your supply curve. All you need to do is count up all the widgets you have to sell (n) and then find the highest price you can where n+1 people will still buy your widgets. It's very simple.
There's no nefarious effort to box out the great unwashed in favor of some gourmet bullshit. There's no lack of elbow to elbow crowds even with their pricing as is. The goal isn't to eliminate anyone (or their elbows).
Lay off the tube, Manny. It's barely noon where you are.
I'm talking customer experience; if you have enough deep pocket customers, (who are willing to pay more) why not try not to treat them like canned sardines ?
As a parent, try to manage three (or more) hyper-excited kids in line for a hour or more, and not lose them.
Our family has experienced this terrifying situation a couple of times; thankfully the kids were old enough to find someone that could help them.
The other factor is equipment fatigue; the machines are only designed for an "X"number of runs. After that they break down, and disaster waits.
So no, it's much more complicated than supply & demand.