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NFT: Tribe @ Mets, game 1 of a big homestand (Bieber v Matz)

jpkmets : 8/20/2019 2:29 pm
Ok, ok, back at it!

Started this thread early in case anyone else has the afternoon off. SNY is replaying the July 31, 2015 game against the Mets. Harvey is on the bump.

A great game. Mets came in trailing the Nats by three at the start of this series. They acquired Cespedes three hours before first pitch and had just endured a crazy week -- the Gomez trade that wasn't, the awful, awful loss to the Padres the day before after a top 9 rain delay. I went to two of these games and remember it so well 4 years later.

Flores wins it with a walkoff bomb in the 12th. Loudest I'd heard citifield before Todd Frazier's 3-run ninth inning tie two weeks ago.

Tonight starts a huge nine game homestand. The level of competition increases (Tribe, Barves, Cubs) and the Mets have to keep winning series to zero in on one of the two Wild Cards.

Steven Matz had a great July then bobbled a little before inexplicably being lifted in Atlanta after retiring 14 in a row. Matz has been up and down overall but most of those downs have come on the road. Matz has a 5-0 record, 2.14 ERA, and WHIP just north of 1 in 11 home appearances (9 starts, two relief appearances). Getting on the board early in this series against the Tribe with Matz would be big-time, with Stroman and Thor to follow.

Stretch run starts now -- if we could bang out a 6-3 (or better) homestand against this group, it would be huge for the playoff effort!

LFGM!!!!!!!!!!!!
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RE: #JDFD  
pjcas18 : 8/20/2019 7:41 pm : link
In comment 14537478 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
he may be the best position player trade we've ever made already. Can't even think of anyone else in that conversation in the last 30 years other than Piazza (who was really more of a FA signing). John Olerud?


Jeff Kent? was an awful trade (to me) since Cone was traded to TOR, but Kent is a borderline HOFer (though mostly due to stats not with the Mets)
RE: #JDFD  
ZGiants98 : 8/20/2019 7:43 pm : link
In comment 14537478 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
he may be the best position player trade we've ever made already. Can't even think of anyone else in that conversation in the last 30 years other than Piazza (who was really more of a FA signing). John Olerud?


Was going to say something similar. Walt Terrell for Howard Johnson maybe? Technically we DID trade for Piazza though.
RE: RE: Nimmo  
pjcas18 : 8/20/2019 7:43 pm : link
In comment 14537480 ZGiants98 said:
Quote:
In comment 14537479 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


1 for 1 playing CF in SYR.

I think he needs to play 2 days in a row before he comes back. see how he rebounds after tonight.



Wow. I was thinking he would be there for a week. Ill take sooner though. I think with his OBP, he would still be valuable in the lineup cold getting his swing back against ML pitching.


That's just me guessing. I mean why move him to SYR at all unless it's to get him closer to Queens for the homestand?

I think they just need to see two games in a row of pain free results and he'll be activated.

Just my guess though.
Ah you said Piazza  
ZGiants98 : 8/20/2019 7:43 pm : link
NM. lol
RE: RE: #JDFD  
Eric on Li : 8/20/2019 7:47 pm : link
In comment 14537482 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
In comment 14537478 Eric on Li said:


Quote:


he may be the best position player trade we've ever made already. Can't even think of anyone else in that conversation in the last 30 years other than Piazza (who was really more of a FA signing). John Olerud?



Jeff Kent? was an awful trade (to me) since Cone was traded to TOR, but Kent is a borderline HOFer (though mostly due to stats not with the Mets)


Really shows how bad we've been at acquiring good players more than anything I guess. The fact that a 4th OF'er like Xavier Nady or Paul Lo Duca may be in this conversation is just sad.

Thankfully we've been a lot better with pitchers (Hampton, Johan, Thor, Wheeler).
indians should get an out here - he would have caught that  
Eric on Li : 8/20/2019 7:53 pm : link
and i dont think it was all that hard to judge.
RE: RE: RE: #JDFD  
pjcas18 : 8/20/2019 7:58 pm : link
In comment 14537490 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 14537482 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


In comment 14537478 Eric on Li said:


Quote:


he may be the best position player trade we've ever made already. Can't even think of anyone else in that conversation in the last 30 years other than Piazza (who was really more of a FA signing). John Olerud?



Jeff Kent? was an awful trade (to me) since Cone was traded to TOR, but Kent is a borderline HOFer (though mostly due to stats not with the Mets)



Really shows how bad we've been at acquiring good players more than anything I guess. The fact that a 4th OF'er like Xavier Nady or Paul Lo Duca may be in this conversation is just sad.

Thankfully we've been a lot better with pitchers (Hampton, Johan, Thor, Wheeler).


Cone, Darling, and Leiter too.

I guess you'd have to count Cespedes as one of the best position players acquired in trade just for the 2015 stretch run alone.

but agree in principle. short and unimpressive list.
LFGM!  
GF1080 : 8/20/2019 9:21 pm : link
Doors blown wide open!!!
Noice  
ChaChing : 8/20/2019 9:22 pm : link
all but put this sucker away...not yet but 6 runs, I mean...

Nice watching the other team's D come apart
Glad to see we cant still beat  
ZGiants98 : 8/20/2019 9:22 pm : link
"real teams". This is the best Indians pitcher we will face too.
Whoopin that ass  
KDubbs : 8/20/2019 9:23 pm : link
Guess we werent just good because of shitty teams on schedule?
Donít look now but BVWís overall body of work  
Chris684 : 8/20/2019 9:26 pm : link
so far is starting to look better and better.

JD
Wilson
Ramos
Panik
Stroman
Decision to start Pete from day 1
Fun game. Hope they save some for tomorrow.  
PhiPsi125 : 8/20/2019 9:29 pm : link
Iíll be at Citi to watch the Mets against this ďreal teamĒ.
Nice to kick ass  
Metnut : 8/20/2019 9:30 pm : link
with our worst pitching matchup of the week. Great start to the home stand. LGFM. Each W before the reinforcements get here is huge.
Lagares has been outstanding in McNeilís absence  
Chris684 : 8/20/2019 9:42 pm : link
which has been huge this past week.

I did not see that coming. Funny how the defense looks like it used to as wel.
Nats bullpen  
KDubbs : 8/20/2019 9:57 pm : link
Just helped us out
Stroman verdict is still out there considering what we gave up  
bhill410 : 8/20/2019 10:01 pm : link
And the fact he has been mediocre. Trading Vargas to team we are in race with was puzzling at best. And cano has been disaster. Jd Davis is only move to be impressed with.

interesting stat- 2nd Half OPS  
CMicks3110 : 8/20/2019 10:18 pm : link
2nd Half numbers
Cano .896
Alonso .905
Conforto .936
JD Davis .1049
McNeil .962
Ramos .770
Frazier .616
Rosario .947

2018 numbers
Nimmo. .887
Lowrie .801
RE: Stroman verdict is still out there considering what we gave up  
Eric on Li : 8/20/2019 10:27 pm : link
In comment 14537604 bhill410 said:
Quote:
And the fact he has been mediocre. Trading Vargas to team we are in race with was puzzling at best. And cano has been disaster. Jd Davis is only move to be impressed with.


This. Also not sure how he deserves credit for giving up 1 more year of Pete Alonso at the league minimum for 9 games that had 0 impact on the season. If the team had sprinted out to lead the division from day 1 maybe you could make a case that was part of the culture. When they were 1 of the worst teams in the NL 3 months into the year, did it really matter that had Alonso up for the first 9 games of April instead of Dom Smith or JD Davis (who have each been excellent in their own right)?
Also that's not to shit on 1 of the best wins of the season  
Eric on Li : 8/20/2019 10:38 pm : link
Starting with Matz continuing to surge. After tonight he's up to 41 innings in the second half and his ERA should be under 3. Another 7 k's to just 1 walk. A number of other good things too:

More big hits from JDFD & Conforto
Rosario closing in on .300 & has a .900 OPS (and .383 obp) in his 99 at bats hitting leadoff this year
Lagares working nice at bats late in the game and making a case to continue getting regular PT even when Nimmo gets his call up
Polar Bear doing his thing
Justin Wilson with 1 of his best outings of the year putting out a fire when it mattered
Panik and Davis showing that their veteran savvy and a glimmer of quality depth
Frazier made some good plays on D
Ramos extends hitting streak

Great team win with Stroman and Thor coming up with chances to take the series before handing the ball to JDG to open against the Braves Friday.
Disagree on Alonso...  
ZGiants98 : 8/20/2019 11:02 pm : link
We are in a dog fight with a razor thin margin where every game counts like crazy right now. This is about the "only" situation where BVW could get totally vindicated for that move.

If we had a huge lead and were running away with the division? Its a bad move because Alonso wasn't needed.

IF we are in last place and completely out of it? Its a bad move because Alonso wasn't needed.

But this is literally the only way it could have gone down where literally any game over the first couple of weeks could actually have been the difference between the postseason or not this year. And Alonso came out like a house on fire too hitting bombs in the first few weeks which led to wins. We dont know if Smith or Davis would have had the same success.

Right now, I just want to get healthy. In 2015, a bunch of players came back over the last half and when we entered the postseason we ended up as deadly as anyone. That can happen again with this team and this pitching staff. Davis was a huge boost tonight. We might get Nimmo, Lowrie, and McNeil back within a week. Cano and Dom still possibly later in September. This team can be a nightmare for teams down the stretch if the stars align for once and if they do... everything will have been worth it IMO.
Shocked at the Stroman criticism also  
ZGiants98 : 8/20/2019 11:08 pm : link
He's pitched in exactly 3 games. Its been a 15 inning sample. The guy clearly has good stuff and is in the middle of a very good season. He's under control for all of next year.

We could almost certainly flip him in the offseason for what we gave up to get him IMO. The Yankees and other teams were flat out pissed we got Stroman for as little as we did.
Stroman Record vs Indians  
Samiam : 8/20/2019 11:12 pm : link
Anybody know how well he pitched against the Indians when he pitched in the AL?
Well Matz stepped up  
MetsAreBack : 8/20/2019 11:28 pm : link
Good start. Hopefully Stroman steps up tomorrow. Confident he will. Only 15 innings so far ... cream rises
RE: Shocked at the Stroman criticism also  
pjcas18 : 8/21/2019 12:30 am : link
In comment 14537657 ZGiants98 said:
Quote:
He's pitched in exactly 3 games. Its been a 15 inning sample. The guy clearly has good stuff and is in the middle of a very good season. He's under control for all of next year.

We could almost certainly flip him in the offseason for what we gave up to get him IMO. The Yankees and other teams were flat out pissed we got Stroman for as little as we did.


Not so much criticism as it is (for me at least) being realistic. He's been mediocre in his 3 starts.

nothing wrong with an honest evaluation for those 3 starts.

He was lights out his last couple starts with TOR, I'm hopeful that he settles in here and pitches the same way.

and to the poster who asked.

he last pitched against CLE on 7/24. 7 IP 5H 1 ER 1BB 6Ks

I'll take it if we see that again.

He also started against CLE in April, another QS, just not quite as good.
RE: SNY just posted a video of Cano  
gmenatlarge : 8/21/2019 8:59 am : link
In comment 14537215 debo_GIANTS said:
Quote:
taking swings in the cage.

He likely only had a partial tear.. aka grade 2 strain if he is already out there taking BP.

I think there is a good chance he will make it back in a few weeks.

Not sure if that is good news...
RE: So when Nimmo is healthy he goes to CF, Mcneil has to go to 2B right?  
gmenatlarge : 8/21/2019 9:00 am : link
In comment 14537481 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
with JDD every day in LF? And Lowrie as super sub or maybe even splitting time with Frazier?


Lagares is actually hitting now so not sure if Nimmo is an upgrade...
RE: RE: Stroman verdict is still out there considering what we gave up  
gmenatlarge : 8/21/2019 9:03 am : link
In comment 14537632 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 14537604 bhill410 said:


Quote:


And the fact he has been mediocre. Trading Vargas to team we are in race with was puzzling at best. And cano has been disaster. Jd Davis is only move to be impressed with.




This. Also not sure how he deserves credit for giving up 1 more year of Pete Alonso at the league minimum for 9 games that had 0 impact on the season. If the team had sprinted out to lead the division from day 1 maybe you could make a case that was part of the culture. When they were 1 of the worst teams in the NL 3 months into the year, did it really matter that had Alonso up for the first 9 games of April instead of Dom Smith or JD Davis (who have each been excellent in their own right)?


Can't agree on Alonso, the guy earned it, keeping him down for no reason causes bad blood down the road in negotiations.
Let's assume for a minute everyone but Cano is back by 9/1  
Chris684 : 8/21/2019 9:14 am : link
may be a bit of a long shot for Lowrie and Dom, but let's just say they are.

What is this tea's best every day lineup?

McNeil 2B
Rosario SS
Conforto RF
Alonso 1B
Davis LF
Ramos C
Frazier 3B
Nimmo CF

Bench would be Panik, Lagares, Dom, Lowrie, Nido.

That's a deep roster.
RE: Let's assume for a minute everyone but Cano is back by 9/1  
Metnut : 8/21/2019 9:29 am : link
In comment 14537874 Chris684 said:
Quote:
may be a bit of a long shot for Lowrie and Dom, but let's just say they are.

What is this tea's best every day lineup?

McNeil 2B
Rosario SS
Conforto RF
Alonso 1B
Davis LF
Ramos C
Frazier 3B
Nimmo CF

Bench would be Panik, Lagares, Dom, Lowrie, Nido.

That's a deep roster.


I think Lowrie is a better player than Frazier. Unless Frazier is "hot" then I'd give the spot to Lowrie. Better defender and hitter than Frazier in 2017 and 2018.

Both Nimmo and Lowrie have been out a LONG time though. Let's keep that in mind. Give Nimmo and Lowrie enough minor league ABs so that they can be ready to contribute when they come up here and not have to get back into game shape while we're playing meaningful games. Let's remember that Nimmo was not good before he went on the DL.
But Chris,  
Metnut : 8/21/2019 9:29 am : link
you're larger point is right. It's a deep roster with a real bench. It should give us some better flexibility late in games (and even with starting lineups) to get us better lefty/righty matchups throughout the games.
RE: But Chris,  
Chris684 : 8/21/2019 9:35 am : link
In comment 14537901 Metnut said:
Quote:
you're larger point is right. It's a deep roster with a real bench. It should give us some better flexibility late in games (and even with starting lineups) to get us better lefty/righty matchups throughout the games.


True, and honestly for the time being I may go with that same lineup except Lagares in CF batting 8th. He's been earning it lately.
I said in March  
pjcas18 : 8/21/2019 9:40 am : link
I'd leave Alonso in AAA for the 10 days or two weeks, whatever it was, but this team is so desperate for some on field success maybe it was the right move starting him in Queens.

The one thing that makes me change my mind is that if Alonso had started in SYR, maybe Dom Smith gets those starts and if he started out well (like he did in a backup role) the Mets FO might have felt like shit, Smith is playing well, let's leave Alonso in SYR longer.

And the way it worked out in reality is MUCH better than that scenario.

I too and thirsty for results TODAY, but sometimes thinking big picture is wiser.

I'm not complaining with how this worked out though.

Mets need to finish the job now.

Sadly, I think Frazier  
ZGiants98 : 8/21/2019 9:45 am : link
Keeps his job. They are going to reward him for a so so season which sucks. Lowrie is gonna come off the bench.
I can live with Frazier the way he's been playing  
Chris684 : 8/21/2019 9:56 am : link
True he had one good and one bad play last night but overall he's very solid with the glove.

He has been providing a little bit of pop. Obviously we know about game 1 in the last Nats series. He got us started late in the Royals comeback on Sunday.

It's kind of a nice problem to have knowing that Frazier and Lagares are producing but can be replaced by Nimmo and Lowrie at any time.
RE: #JDFD  
Section331 : 8/21/2019 10:37 am : link
In comment 14537478 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
he may be the best position player trade we've ever made already. Can't even think of anyone else in that conversation in the last 30 years other than Piazza (who was really more of a FA signing). John Olerud?


Wasn't Delgado a trade?
RE: RE: #JDFD  
pjcas18 : 8/21/2019 10:41 am : link
In comment 14538045 Section331 said:
Quote:
In comment 14537478 Eric on Li said:


Quote:


he may be the best position player trade we've ever made already. Can't even think of anyone else in that conversation in the last 30 years other than Piazza (who was really more of a FA signing). John Olerud?



Wasn't Delgado a trade?


yeah, good call.
RE: Sadly, I think Frazier  
debo_GIANTS : 8/21/2019 10:43 am : link
In comment 14537936 ZGiants98 said:
Quote:
Keeps his job. They are going to reward him for a so so season which sucks. Lowrie is gonna come off the bench.


My hope is that Lowrie will take 2 starts a week from Frazier and be a tough at-bat as pinch hitter coming off the bench. The team is much improved but agree he won't be an everyday player.
RE: RE: RE: #JDFD  
sshin05 : 8/21/2019 10:47 am : link
In comment 14538052 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
In comment 14538045 Section331 said:


Quote:


In comment 14537478 Eric on Li said:


Quote:


he may be the best position player trade we've ever made already. Can't even think of anyone else in that conversation in the last 30 years other than Piazza (who was really more of a FA signing). John Olerud?



Wasn't Delgado a trade?



yeah, good call.


Ces trade? At the time, he provided the spark for the WS run
Yea Ces and Delgado actually had very similar Met careers  
Eric on Li : 8/21/2019 10:59 am : link
in year 1 they were the lynchpins of the lineup and helped carry the team to division wins + playoffs, then got hurt/played worse in the years after that to the point of being negative value salaries.

Definitely have to take the good though, without them we probably don't win our only 2 divisions this century.

Re: the Alonso thing I think it just remains to be seen how things play out. If they can get him resigned early like the Braves did with Acuna and Albies it's a non-issue. If they can't and arbitrary budget constraints hamper them in 2022, when he could have been on the books for the minimum, or the years following when he will be expensive in arbitration and they will still have Cano making $20m through 2023, then everyone may regret those 10 days.
It looks like Lowrie is only  
Metnut : 8/21/2019 1:13 pm : link
DHing for now, so his return might not be imminent.
RE: Sadly, I think Frazier  
Vanzetti : 8/21/2019 1:35 pm : link
In comment 14537936 ZGiants98 said:
Quote:
Keeps his job. They are going to reward him for a so so season which sucks. Lowrie is gonna come off the bench.


I donít think so, Z.

Lowrie last two years against RHP:

825 OPS
841 OPS

He was also signed by BVW. So, I think he plays angst RHP and Todd against LHP.
Anyone else of the mind to keep Rosario in the leadoff role?  
Torrag : 8/21/2019 1:49 pm : link
I think he's ready and obviously offers more on the basepaths than Mcneil. I also believe McNeil would be better 'supporting' Rosario running in terms of plate discipline in hit and run situations etc. It's a move that would place both guys in more 'natural' slots for their skillsets imo.
Problem is we are running out of minor league games  
bhill410 : 8/21/2019 1:51 pm : link
So by default their rehabs almost have to end on first unless we have an affiliate who is home in playoffs.
RE: Problem is we are running out of minor league games  
pjcas18 : 8/21/2019 1:53 pm : link
In comment 14538299 bhill410 said:
Quote:
So by default their rehabs almost have to end on first unless we have an affiliate who is home in playoffs.


but then the rosters expand so it's less of an issue, to have them rehab with the major league club. IOW you don't have to worry so much about them tying up an active roster spot.
RE: Anyone else of the mind to keep Rosario in the leadoff role?  
pjcas18 : 8/21/2019 1:54 pm : link
In comment 14538296 Torrag said:
Quote:
I think he's ready and obviously offers more on the basepaths than Mcneil. I also believe McNeil would be better 'supporting' Rosario running in terms of plate discipline in hit and run situations etc. It's a move that would place both guys in more 'natural' slots for their skillsets imo.


Yes, his 2nd half OBP is .409 - that's better than McNeil's season OBP of .400 which is awesome - and to me it is as much of a Rosario vs McNeil as it is Rosario vs Nimmo for who bats leadoff.

Until and if he cools off, Rosario leads off if it's up to me.
RE: Anyone else of the mind to keep Rosario in the leadoff role?  
Metnut : 8/21/2019 1:55 pm : link
In comment 14538296 Torrag said:
Quote:
I think he's ready and obviously offers more on the basepaths than Mcneil. I also believe McNeil would be better 'supporting' Rosario running in terms of plate discipline in hit and run situations etc. It's a move that would place both guys in more 'natural' slots for their skillsets imo.


I'm fine with it so long as Rosario keeps getting on base. McNeil seems like a natural #2 hitter to me.
Rosario's numbers hitting leadoff are insane (.900 OPS in ~100 abs)  
Eric on Li : 8/21/2019 2:06 pm : link
they almost have to leave him there until he fails. Hitting .330+ with an OBP over .380.
I grew up  
CMicks3110 : 8/21/2019 8:24 pm : link
across the street from the Davidson's and went to school with his daughters. That family lives and breathes Hockey, so I'm pretty sure you can judge JD's judgement on anything hockey related.
wrong thread  
CMicks3110 : 8/21/2019 8:25 pm : link
sorry
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