One thing that really sticks out thus far after two meaningless games is how well all of the units are performing from top to bottom. It's by no means perfect and I realize the Bears played no one, but the backup OL/WR/QB situation looks better than it has in a very long time. Pre-season is usually garbage time by half time watching lost players scramble around as flags fly and we want to poke our eyes out or fondly remember Pirahna and the Tiki Missile..ggssssasssk.
I honestly recall years past when the backup OL/QBs come in and it's an absolute train wreck as the players bungle it up for hours on end. Despite the turnovers last week, this team looks competent and well coached down to the 4th stringers. I've been honestly shocked at how well the lines have held up late in games and how our backup offensive players are actually producing. There isn't much to glean from it, when the bullets are flying 1/3 of these guys won't be in blue anymore but so far I'm pleasantly surprised. There seems to be a better overall functionality on both sides of the ball and players don't look like dogs at a fireworks show as they usually do in pre-season games.
My question firstly, am I alone in seeing this? If not, is this just better coaching, a simpler scheme, better end of the roster players? Maybe all contribute but the level of competency displayed has been very very unusual for this time of year, in a good way.
I call this an improvement. I don't know if they're ready for Dallas, but it's certainly a step in the right direction.
I also am impressed with how Shumer is handling the play time. The skill players get plenty of work in OTA and don't bed the time in preseason. However the Oline gets little work in the off season. I like that the first team oline is getting more time in the games. They hit so little in practice now they need the reps.
The other very noticeably change is the fact that our reserve WRs have stepped in and made some serious, serious plays. It's pretty wild to think that losing one of the game's best WRs may actually have a round-about benefit to the team because it removes pressure from forcing the ball somewhere and instead allows our signal callers to go where the play takes them. I think this will overall balance things out and keep the chains moving. I don't envy the decision the FO will face when choosing those last (2) WR slots this year.
The starters are holding their own and the backups have been winning.
What I've been pleased with is the LB's look like they might be average rather than terrible. I think Connelly is going to make a lot of plays that in the past would've led to long gains.
The defensive backfield looks like they have a lot of natural talent. How those young guys pull together will be a key. And I hate to say this, but the OL looks like they are above average right now.
It wouldn't be the first time the preseason was misleading if they turn out to be poor, but I see some real development and growth.
Watching late into a preseason game is no longer a chore, it's enjoyable! The back of the roster has improved.
Lots of BBIers said it was just preseason -- it doesn't matter at all. It's all vanilla -- they don't want to show anything, etc. But I've always felt that you tend to play like you practice and the poor preseason offense was likely to carry over. And it did.
I agree, Joey, all the units are playing pretty well and I'm am feeling better about the offense than I have for a while.
Our talent is much deeper and the bottom of the line up cuts will be difficult as we have more then 53 quality guys.
In past years, the offense looked really, really bad in the preseason games and a lot of us really hoped it wasn't going to be indicative of what was to come... but the writing was on the wall there.
The line looks much improved so far.
I don't think this is a playoff team yet - but I think the Giants are going to be better and more competitive than a lot of people think.
I'd love to have this guy in blue next year... but he'll probably be off the board before we pick :(
Agreed. I still think we're a year away from being more than a .500 team.
Threads that critique Shurmur for a boring press conference make me sick. Coaching makes a difference in team execution, and I think we're seeing it here.
Of course, this needs to hold up through our season... but its good to see for where we are right now.
I think we have the second easiest schedule. That should help, but I still think 7-9, maybe 8-8, is our final record.
I don't think they are playoff bound either, but there is something different this year. Yeah, 8-8 and a #12 to 16 pick is probably right.
It cannot be understated how important an offensive line is to a team - everything builds off of it, even defense cause' it's nice to know that once you get the ball back to the offense, you'll be off the field for more than 4 freakin' plays to rest.
The quality of play from that unit has been remarkable - yes, the run game isn't going to really show what it can do until Barkley plays, but pass protection... actual, pass protection?
When is the last preseason where the Giants had FOUR QB's playing very well? I'll tell you - NEVER.
I don't know where it goes, but I'm enjoying it while it lasts.
for the whole game. To me that is progress. I am impressed that Gentlemen has built a competent OL and through the draft and Peppers' acquisition improved our D.
DL - Hill, Lawrence, Tomlinson, McIntosh, Slayton
LB - Connelly, Carter, Ximines
DB - Love, Baker, Ballentine, Peppers
OL - Hernandez
WR - Slayton
That's why I'm happy we're doing OK supposedly picking on backups without your 4 biggest playmakers. In similar situations we would look discombobulated and out of flow. Very in flow this preaseason.
May be something that shows more in the PS and everything normalizes once the games count and we face 1s.....but it's at least a sign the process behind the scenes might be working.
Sure every coach will say this but he felt the team was much more comfortable and further along with the systems on both sides of the ball.
Everything was new last year. Shurmur was new. Bettcher was new. Schemes new. Most of the position coaches. All the players. Forget the O&D nobody knew where the cafeteria was.
Everything's more comfortable this year and Shurmur is a legit offensive coach, there shouldn't be much question about that before he got here.
And I absolutely think it's Gettleman understanding what an NFL football player (and lockerroom) looks like.
How those convey to real game action will be interesting. But those seem much improved to me.
How those convey to real game action will be interesting. But those seem much improved to me.
For the most part, the OL has been going up against the second team DL's. Outside of that first Jets series, I don't think they have seen any starters.
It's a good start and trending in the right direction. Hopefully we will see more against the first team DL of the Bengals.
Last year I saw a guy who was figuring out the NFL game. He is about as cerebral a player as you'll ever see. I think he has an understanding of how best to attack the NFL now and has decided to come in leaner, faster and quicker.
This, combined with a legitimately powerful offensive line, is the story of the NFL. And nobody's seeing it yet.
Barkley for MVP and something we've never seen before in the NFL. This year.
As you point out, our LBs have really helped improve the D.
Last year I saw a guy who was figuring out the NFL game. He is about as cerebral a player as you'll ever see. I think he has an understanding of how best to attack the NFL now and has decided to come in leaner, faster and quicker.
This, combined with a legitimately powerful offensive line, is the story of the NFL. And nobody's seeing it yet.
Barkley for MVP and something we've never seen before in the NFL. This year.
Barkley always looked light for a 233 lb back, it's because his weight is all in his thighs.
- first team defense doesn't look good. First drive vs Sam Darnold, 7 plays and points. First drive by Chase Daniel, 11 plays and points.
- Daniel Jones looks like he is ready to shine, starting week 1. We don't have to wait long for this kid to be good. I would put him in week 1 because I believe he would win more games than Eli would, it's that simple.
Felt like using one of bbi's favorite words. Oh and SB is not fungible.
Wr obviously is a downgrade especially with Tate suspended early but it seems like an OK group, they have been making plays just havent seem them again top competition.
RB is top notch
TE equal or better than last year with a healthy Engram
DL - This is a question mark still, lot of youth and we have seen flashes
Pass Rush probably can't be worse than last year. even with OV it was pathetic but I think the improved secondary will help a bit.
LBs seem to be an upgrade. This Connelly kid gives great effort and is nice to have him as a backup right now. davis with a 2nd year in the system seems to be improved. A guy like Goodson a starter last year may be pushed off the team.
Secondary is very young but shows a lot of promise and talent. They look better than last year.
The overall attitude of the team is better, you have guys that come in and are all about Football. You don't hear about personal things, you hear about football. this is a team that you like to root for. the guys that are gone are still in the media talking about shit that has nothing to do with football, its all personal. DG tore it down and now rebuilding with football 1st guys.
1 - the pissing and moaning about the coaching staff, and Shurmur in particular, is so off base, even in historic context, that I have stopped responding to it. This is a very competent coaching staff and it seems to excel in teaching. I can point to several markers that exemplify this. There are improvements in players that many have either made made JAG assumptions about, or who were UDFA that are contributing, like: Kyle Lauletta, Paul Perkins, Jonathan Hillman, Bennie Fowler III, Cody Latimer, Garrett Dickerson, Nick Gates, RJ Macintosh, Kareem Martin, Tae Davis, Nate Stupar, Kenny Laudler, Sean Chandler and Grant Haley
2 - the Giants have massively overhauled and targeted seriously changed body types and mentality, and their trades, drafting and UDFA and FA signings reflect this
3 - the fundamentals that are being drilled in practice and preseason so far are really all about no nonsense football and producing. The Giants have embraced several trends that analytics show are successful -- ie throwing out of 22 formation, play action, keeping the defense guessing on first down and mixing up the pass and the run - bolstering play action
4 - the Offensive line improvement is real
5 - I have been extremely impressed with the production of the WRs across the board. I have targeted my favorites, and the last two or three at the back end are in a real dog fight. On the front end Bennie Fowler, TJ Jones, and Cody Latimer are going to be very good receivers for us. They have each been making consistent noise throughout training camp/preseason as well as mixing in the spectacular. Each of them can stretch the field.
6 - I really like the energy of the defense and I think the defense is going to really surprise. There are question marks there for sure, but we really haven't seen them gel yet. I really like the size and energy of the front seven, and the speed and energy of the backfield. There are going to be a lot of rookies in the mix -- another sign that the Giants have really drafted and maximized opportunity with their UDFA selections. There should be rookies on each layer of the defense with Dexter Lawrence, Dandre Baker, Ryan Connelly, also Corey Ballentine and Oshane Ximines are going to be hard to keep off the field. I think Marcus Golden, Lorenzo Carter, Oshane Ximines and Kareem Martin are going to be a surprisingly good rotation in getting pressure and disrupting the QB off the edge. James Betcher is a really good DC. In many ways he reminds me a lot of John Fox; and the last point I would like to make, and this is not a done deal yet, but Rod Marinelli was able to make hash out of a lot of no-names when he first started as DC for the Cowboys, this group reminds me a lot of that group and imo Betcher has the tools to possibly have the same kind of results.
I agree with Joey's overall perception that this team has been fun to watch and they are well coached. This preseason has been much more productive than any preseason we've had since 2008, and it is has been very upbeat in tempo. I think the Offense is going to be pretty productive and fun to watch this year. I think the defense is may have more growing pains than the Offense but it too will be fun to watch with so many rookies and UDFAs pushing for playing time.
Here is the best part of the good news -- the Giants are going to have some very difficult decisions to make on Cut down day at the end of the roster -- the fights for the last spots at TE, RB, WR, CB, OL, LB will all result in waiver wire pick ups by other teams in my opinion. The most interesting decision for me is going to be QB -- Kyle Lauletta is making noise -- make no mistake about it. If the Giants are keeping three QBs -- do you keep the teacher and unspectacular Tanney or the keeper skills and higher ceiling of Lauletta. If you cut Lauletta I think you lose him to another team for sure.
The starters are holding their own and the backups have been winning.
What I've been pleased with is the LB's look like they might be average rather than terrible. I think Connelly is going to make a lot of plays that in the past would've led to long gains.
The defensive backfield looks like they have a lot of natural talent. How those young guys pull together will be a key. And I hate to say this, but the OL looks like they are above average right now.
It wouldn't be the first time the preseason was misleading if they turn out to be poor, but I see some real development and growth.
I was thinking the same thing while watching the second game. We have 4 QBs that look decent. The backup OL was doing well pass blocking both games. Giants scored point in all levels. It does seem like a well coached team.
Hopefully it looks this way when the games count.
Nick Gates needs to get stronger but he might be a future starter for the Giants somewhere along the OL.
I am curious to see how many OL they keep. I'm hoping for 9 with Pulley, Gates, Wheeler, and Slade as the backups. Hopefully they will be able to stash Evan Brown and James O'Hagan on the practice squad.
Other teams like Washington are likely watching the OL situation with the Giants in hopes that they can a piece.
The offensive scheme is very simple.
That is helpful early in the season but it remains to be seen if it will remain as effective later in the year.
We will have to see if that's a problem or if we're prepping this team in a linear fashion and we're simply "on schedule" in our prep.
Some coaches prefer the "overload method" and suffer through the early chaos.
Both methods can be effective.
In any event, I agree with his assessment that the team looks much improved from top to bottom on the offensive side of the ball.
I am impressed what this staff has done so far in year two in terms of upgrading talent and improving the team attitude.
The offensive scheme is very simple.
That is helpful early in the season but it remains to be seen if it will remain as effective later in the year.
We will have to see if that's a problem or if we're prepping this team in a linear fashion and we're simply "on schedule" in our prep.
Some coaches prefer the "overload method" and suffer through the early chaos.
Both methods can be effective.
In any event, I agree with his assessment that the team looks much improved from top to bottom on the offensive side of the ball.
Thanks for that insight Dorgan
Joey too. This is the type of information the typical fan (me included) overlooks. Certainly something to consider.
but to your point 100% noticeable. All units, all 4 quarters looked like they knew what they were doing for the most part.
They are certainly encouraging signs, Jones being the most prominent, but I still think the O-Line is overrated right now, and the pass rush is still a big question.
Hopefully they can come out and play well against Dallas and get a win!
I like the direction we are heading but the 1st team defense has allowed 10 points in two drives. The second against Chicago's backup QB. It's a small sample, but not a good one. The concern is the defense. It was atrocious last year. We bypassed the opportunity to draft an elite edge prospect in Allen. I get why, but that move didn't 'accelerate' the rebuild on that side of the ball. We'll be relying on a lot of very young guys to make major contributions. I do expect improvement but it's a lot to expect a complete transformation over last seasons results.
I'll stick to me expectation that we'll make strides and perhaps challenge for a playoff berth. I don't see us developing into a serious contender until the 2020 campaign.
It remains to be seen how this team performs when the other side is game planning. And how they adjust.
Have high hopes all this will translate into wins when the real bullets start flying.
The offensive scheme is very simple.
That is helpful early in the season but it remains to be seen if it will remain as effective later in the year.
We will have to see if that's a problem or if we're prepping this team in a linear fashion and we're simply "on schedule" in our prep.
Some coaches prefer the "overload method" and suffer through the early chaos.
Both methods can be effective.
In any event, I agree with his assessment that the team looks much improved from top to bottom on the offensive side of the ball.
The real test on how improved the Giants are will be in 3 weeks.
As far as Shurmur goes as HC, I supported him last year as this team never quit on him. He is a players coach and I like that very much especially with a young team.
Progress this year will depend on OL and pass rush improving over last year. The defense needs to be way better on third down.
Let’s go Giants!!!!
One thing I'm wondering about is the leadership of the team has changed pretty significantly. Here's an example of the effect a single player can have on a unit (bold added):
Jon Halapio
Will Hernandez
“He’s been phenomenal, not only as a player but as a teacher, too,” Hernandez said during the break after OTAs, via Giants.com. “He’s taught a lot of young guys, including myself, a lot of technique.
Mike Remmers
Hal Hunter
I don't really know if the OL really had a leader in the past, but I believe a big shift in results can be had when people become no-nonsense and laser-focused on their job. If KZ is standing out amongst the starters, imagine the effect that can have on the guys further down the line competing for a roster spot.
Creating the right culture in the locker room has been dismissed by many, but I think your leaders in the locker room may be more important than the coaches, in some cases.
I dont believe the issues with the OL come from guys that didnt take it seriously (except maybe Bobby Hart). They just weren't good enough.
The Giants employed two very veteran and accomplished OL coaches in the past five years. Neither of them could produce even in preseason the results the team is apparently getting from actually talented players like a Hernandez, a Solder (when healthy) or a guy who's top 10 at his position in Zeitler.
It's pretty clear nobody in the building with authority on drafting players was good at drafting offensive lineman.
The most inaccurate statement of the last half decade from fans is Reese ignored the offensive line. He was actually just bad at it, and he lost his job.
I'm really happy it seems Remmers, Solder, and Halapio have had no missed time from their injuries this pre season. This is going to be a pretty group, and hopefully enough reps to build continuity. Gettleman did a good job.
I dont believe the issues with the OL come from guys that didnt take it seriously (except maybe Bobby Hart). They just weren't good enough.
The Giants employed two very veteran and accomplished OL coaches in the past five years. Neither of them could produce even in preseason the results the team is apparently getting from actually talented players like a Hernandez, a Solder (when healthy) or a guy who's top 10 at his position in Zeitler.
The guys we're commenting on (2nd & 3rd string OL) are not all highly talented guys. They are guys who are executing well, being assignment sound, and working together nicely.
I don't know how much of an influence it is, but I doubt the improvements mentioned are because our backup OL is so much more talented than it has been in the past.
And hey, maybe he's not the right guy to be here long-term... but I felt like the team did improve a bit with him as last year went on, the players seemed to buy what he was putting out there and continued to play hard for him right until the end (well, most... if they didn't, they're almost certainly no longer here)
I think he will do a fine job in helping Jones develop - I wouldn't discount Shurmur when it comes to how pleasantly surprised we've been by Daniel in the very, very early going - I think he's certainly got something to do with that.
He's not a big "rah rah" guy. His pressers aren't going to leave you feeling pumped up and ready to go to war - but neither do Belichick's and that's fine. (I feel like this being BBI, I always need to qualify statements like those and reiterate that I am not comparing Shurmur to Bill...) and I feel like some people listen to him talk and just kinda go "meh" - but I'm cautiously optimistic about the general direction of the team and so far, I like the coach.
Funny how that happens when you insert some offensive lineman that aren't clueless, and lift up the roster a bit with some better drafts.
If its because of Shurmur/coaching too then kudos to them as well...not sure anyone can really tell that though at this stage.
Quote:
as NFLTV posted recently, but I do think we'll pick top half of the 1st round.
I think we have the second easiest schedule. That should help, but I still think 7-9, maybe 8-8, is our final record.
One thing I'm wondering about is the leadership of the team has changed pretty significantly. Here's an example of the effect a single player can have on a unit (bold added):
Jon Halapio
Quote:
"I feel a different vibe and different energy in this group," Halapio said. "Especially with Kevin bringing a whole different mentality to the group….He (Zeitler) brings toughness, he's a workaholic, he's obsessed. That's something we need in the room, to help lead us the right way."
Will Hernandez
Quote:
Second-year Giants left guard Will Hernandez has already noticed the impact Zeitler can make as a teacher and mentor, specifically with the advice he has given the young players when it comes to improving their pass protection.
“He’s been phenomenal, not only as a player but as a teacher, too,” Hernandez said during the break after OTAs, via Giants.com. “He’s taught a lot of young guys, including myself, a lot of technique.
Mike Remmers
Quote:
You can tell he's got a great attitude and you can just tell how much it means to him and that helps everyone around him. You can see how hard he is working, it pushes everyone else to work even harder
Hal Hunter
Quote:
He is the most serious, focused, all-about-football guy I have ever been around... I thought it was Kris Dielman (whom Hunter coached in San Diego), but he takes it up a notch. You love being around a guy like that. I worry about him wearing himself out mentally, because he is so focused and so in tune. I think it starts to get contagious with the other guys. He’s a no-nonsense guy. Every day he is a man on a mission, his performance is really important to him. You can see it’s kind of working through the room a little bit. He brings something really different, I’m excited to have him.”
I don't really know if the OL really had a leader in the past, but I believe a big shift in results can be had when people become no-nonsense and laser-focused on their job. If KZ is standing out amongst the starters, imagine the effect that can have on the guys further down the line competing for a roster spot.
Creating the right culture in the locker room has been dismissed by many, but I think your leaders in the locker room may be more important than the coaches, in some cases.
Dawkins made that Philly team steely edgy and tough with his no nonsense leadership and Will. They became a soft clownshow after he left.
They are certainly encouraging signs, Jones being the most prominent, but I still think the O-Line is overrated right now, and the pass rush is still a big question.
Hopefully they can come out and play well against Dallas and get a win!
I'm just glad to not have that feeling of uncomfortable revulsion I usually have with our preseason performances.
Iirc weren't we steamrolling in 2008 preseason?
DL - Hill, Lawrence, Tomlinson, McIntosh, Slayton
LB - Connelly, Carter, Ximines
DB - Love, Baker, Ballentine, Peppers
OL - Hernandez
WR - Slayton
Well said, way too rational for BBI.
Quote:
We win a ton of games, but the foundation is being set. We have a ton of new guys who have proven nothing, this is the year for them to grow and prove they belong. Not all of the young DBs will pan out, and we have to see jumps from a LOT of guys. If these rookie and 2-3 year guys really establish themselves, we're on our way to not sucking next year but I expect enough growing pains this season for us to kind of stink at times.
DL - Hill, Lawrence, Tomlinson, McIntosh, Slayton
LB - Connelly, Carter, Ximines
DB - Love, Baker, Ballentine, Peppers
OL - Hernandez
WR - Slayton
Well said, way too rational for BBI.
You're right - everyone here expects double digit wins and playoffs - there's no one else here expecting growing pains or anything to be tough along the way.
Another fantastic contribution.
Quote:
In comment 14538091 Joey in VA said:
Quote:
We win a ton of games, but the foundation is being set. We have a ton of new guys who have proven nothing, this is the year for them to grow and prove they belong. Not all of the young DBs will pan out, and we have to see jumps from a LOT of guys. If these rookie and 2-3 year guys really establish themselves, we're on our way to not sucking next year but I expect enough growing pains this season for us to kind of stink at times.
DL - Hill, Lawrence, Tomlinson, McIntosh, Slayton
LB - Connelly, Carter, Ximines
DB - Love, Baker, Ballentine, Peppers
OL - Hernandez
WR - Slayton
Well said, way too rational for BBI.
You're right - everyone here expects double digit wins and playoffs - there's no one else here expecting growing pains or anything to be tough along the way.
Another fantastic contribution.
Thank you for proving my point...
Last year I saw a guy who was figuring out the NFL game. He is about as cerebral a player as you'll ever see. I think he has an understanding of how best to attack the NFL now and has decided to come in leaner, faster and quicker.
This, combined with a legitimately powerful offensive line, is the story of the NFL. And nobody's seeing it yet.
Barkley for MVP and something we've never seen before in the NFL. This year.
Saquon is 34:1 to win MVP on fanduel right now. Might be worth it to throw a few bucks on those long odds
Is way too rosy a view of our WR corps. Not one of them "stretch the field" or command double coverage or a zone safety over the top.
I'm not freaked out negatively about our WR corps, but take off the blue tinted shades and be honest. Unless someone steps up way the hell above his proven ability, it's a mediocre group.
If the Bears had played their top group of DBs last week's game would have looked entirely different. Even with SB, EE, and SS starting...