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Jones is just a game manager

NephilimGiants : 8/24/2019 12:12 pm
https://youtu.be/8DKa9aQA14E

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All he did was desperately look for at least one stat against Jones  
NephilimGiants : 8/24/2019 3:05 pm : link
Jones is that good if it's the only thing to be critical about
Brett Kollmann is just a fan with a YouTube channel  
Deejboy : 8/24/2019 3:07 pm : link
and a Patreon. He is no more an expert than any of us. He never worked in the NFL. He was never a scout paid to be right or wrong about players. He is just a guy making YouTube videos and for some reason some people take him seriously. He has been wrong a lot. Go look at his Christian Hackenberg video where he argued he would be a NFL franchise QB.

Remember all his income comes from people believing he knows something. He already lambasted Daniel Jones. His ability to make money goes down if Jones is a good QB so he must continue to knock him despite all the evidence in front of him. At some point he can't bash him anymore and will do a 180 like with Patrick Mahomes. But honestly, who cares about Brett Kollmann? He is just a fan and not a professional scout or NFL FO guy.
3 things:  
MBavaro : 8/24/2019 3:09 pm : link
1. The theme of this video was to not get too hyped or to panic over the preseason. A lot on here are doing one or the other, if not both.

2. Brett is really quite good at this stuff. However,

3. Apparently he is also very butt hurt over the Jones pick, as stated by someone else on the thread. VERY butt hurt.
RE: Brett Kollmann is just a fan with a YouTube channel  
BestFeature : 8/24/2019 3:15 pm : link
In comment 14542710 Deejboy said:
Quote:
and a Patreon. He is no more an expert than any of us. He never worked in the NFL. He was never a scout paid to be right or wrong about players. He is just a guy making YouTube videos and for some reason some people take him seriously. He has been wrong a lot. Go look at his Christian Hackenberg video where he argued he would be a NFL franchise QB.

Remember all his income comes from people believing he knows something. He already lambasted Daniel Jones. His ability to make money goes down if Jones is a good QB so he must continue to knock him despite all the evidence in front of him. At some point he can't bash him anymore and will do a 180 like with Patrick Mahomes. But honestly, who cares about Brett Kollmann? He is just a fan and not a professional scout or NFL FO guy.


Player evaluation mistakes are one thing but all he had to do was look at his list, the top 4 QBs and QBs that weren't on there to see that this argument is garbage. Extremely sloppy.
Of course he is a game manager.  
Mike from Ohio : 8/24/2019 3:26 pm : link
That is the job of every QB at every level of football. Good game managers win games and Superbowls. Tom Brady is a game manager. So is Eli. So is Ryan Tannehill. They do it with varying degrees of success.

If the term is being used to say he doesn’t throw the ball in the air far enough, then he is looking for stats, not how the QB executes the offense being called.

You know who was a poor game manager? Jeff George. But I bet this guy loved how he chucked the ball down the field. So that’s nice.
This is why I'm more interested in content than background  
ChaChing : 8/24/2019 3:34 pm : link
or title or even experience alone. If Gil Brandt or some other well respected analyst made this vid, I'd personally still say it's pretty poor. This comment isn't about being an NYG or DJ fan, but simply making an argument with supporting facts. More than their opinion, you get the why you can evaluate, refute, learn something new...

This vid states a few hypotheses (stats are misleading, preseason doesn't matter much) then uses a SINGLE PRESEASON STAT to make his point

He also introduces it as a comp between 3 players. Then using that ONE stat again, implies 2 are better (mostly due to air yards I guess?)

He also says to use film. Where's film on KM & DH? And why do we cherry pick the FIRST PRESEASON DRIVE of a rook? That too while ignoring later drives that showed tougher / deep throws. Then says the good throws were his coach and scheme

It's just a poorly constructed, contradictory argument. The only value is a platitude about preseason isn't everything? Even ignorant fans don't need 15 min on these QBs, much less using ONE example as some kind of proof of what's basically a cliche?
RE: Of course he is a game manager.  
ChaChing : 8/24/2019 3:35 pm : link
In comment 14542728 Mike from Ohio said:
Quote:
That is the job of every QB at every level of football. Good game managers win games and Superbowls. Tom Brady is a game manager. So is Eli. So is Ryan Tannehill. They do it with varying degrees of success.

If the term is being used to say he doesn’t throw the ball in the air far enough, then he is looking for stats, not how the QB executes the offense being called.

You know who was a poor game manager? Jeff George. But I bet this guy loved how he chucked the ball down the field. So that’s nice.

Nice...good post. I said almost the same thing above (w/ Brady & George as 2 examples lol). Tho yours is much more eloquent!
RE: RE: Of course he is a game manager.  
BestFeature : 8/24/2019 3:40 pm : link
In comment 14542736 ChaChing said:
Quote:
In comment 14542728 Mike from Ohio said:


Quote:


That is the job of every QB at every level of football. Good game managers win games and Superbowls. Tom Brady is a game manager. So is Eli. So is Ryan Tannehill. They do it with varying degrees of success.

If the term is being used to say he doesn’t throw the ball in the air far enough, then he is looking for stats, not how the QB executes the offense being called.

You know who was a poor game manager? Jeff George. But I bet this guy loved how he chucked the ball down the field. So that’s nice.


Nice...good post. I said almost the same thing above (w/ Brady & George as 2 examples lol). Tho yours is much more eloquent!


Joe Montana is another example. Also another example right there with Tom Brady of having an all-time great coach putting him in a position to succeed. If Shurmur does that to Jones how is this a knock on Jones? Was that a knock on Montana and Brady? Maybe a QB like Peyton Manning can succeed with any OC. But Peyton Manning is probably the most unique QB in the NFL in that sense. First ballot HOFer Drew Brees didn't do much until he got Payton.
Game Manager?! LOL  
Simms11 : 8/24/2019 3:58 pm : link
Anyway, DJones has shown that he definitely has skill and IMO, has already shown why he was drafted at #6. We still haven’t seen him take off with the ball and his mobility will add a dimension that we’ve not seen here in quite some time.

Biggest concern right now with DJones is his ability to feel the rush. He’s even commented about stepping up into the pocket when he feels the pressure. He should learn and get better in the pocket.

Those with agendas want to try to further justify them and their dislike for Jones. I’m not so sure most of them will ever admit they were wrong! Who cares anyway. If DJones gets the Giants to the playoffs and is successful, who cares if he’s a system QB or not. Could you call Tom Brady a system QB? Coaches are supposed to put their players in position to be successful and Shurmur is doing just that. How do you think Keenum and Foles were so successful ?!
Here is what we know...  
bw in dc : 8/24/2019 3:59 pm : link
Jones got hot in game 1 and has stayed hot. It's really that simple. The guy has been in a zone.

And by and large he's made most of the throws you'd have to make in most games.

Now, the great unknowns we all think about remain:

-- Can he perform similarly against the Varsity Ds?
-- Can he manage real game speed?
-- Can he perform as a similar level for a full game?
-- Can he deal with pressure?
-- Can he make plays off script?
-- Etc.

The best way to start getting these answers is for the DJ to play right away. But it seems we're going old school and will force him to wait...


Intended yards  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 8/24/2019 4:05 pm : link
Now honestly what is that? Can you win a Nobel Prize for intended chemistry?
DJ’s  
Spike13 : 8/24/2019 4:07 pm : link
Inability to go through all of his progressions, as well as being more patient wth his check-down, are all clear indications that the game is still moving rapidly for him. However his arm, accuracy, and near horizontal touch have been nothing less than stellar.
One more year, under the tutelage of Shurmer & Eli, will gag the naysayers, and put to rest this offseason banter. We are looking at an athlete with the ability to lead, and represent this team, for the next decade.
Putting aside the game manager comment  
ron mexico : 8/24/2019 4:33 pm : link
I thought that was an excellent segment. Guy definitely knows his shit and had the right overall message, dont overreact in either direction.

One note specific to the Jones criticism on the TD vs the jets, he didn't make the same mistake vs the bears, he threw it with more loft and distance.

If this guy is right that his QB coach would've criticized him on Monday morning, he took that criticism and fixed it the next week.
RE: Here is what we know...  
ChaChing : 8/24/2019 4:39 pm : link
In comment 14542752 bw in dc said:
Quote:
Jones got hot in game 1 and has stayed hot. It's really that simple. The guy has been in a zone.

And by and large he's made most of the throws you'd have to make in most games.

Now, the great unknowns we all think about remain:

-- Can he perform similarly against the Varsity Ds?
-- Can he manage real game speed?
-- Can he perform as a similar level for a full game?
-- Can he deal with pressure?
-- Can he make plays off script?
-- Etc.

The best way to start getting these answers is for the DJ to play right away. But it seems we're going old school and will force him to wait...

I actually with most of those bullet points (save "Etc")

But the idea that he has to play immediately I don't. Sure sitting too long is not good, and he definitely needs live action. But people act like there's no value to watching, when the reality is you learn A LOT that you wouldn't normally while playing. Agreed it's different player to player, and staff / team / culture all play roles, but even tho I wouldn't mind him starting ASAP, DJ is the type who will gain a lot out of even a full yr at #2

It's not some all or nothing moment. And possibly a great thing for a rook esp while adjusting to all the stuff we fans ignore like moving, new city, new everything no matter how nice the paycheck is or being a pro athlete seems...not the worst thing even if he would succeed starting game 1. And that ignoring Eli's side, to which unless he's awful or just much worse than DJ, he's more than deserved to start this season...
Game manager  
UberAlias : 8/24/2019 4:54 pm : link
The guy hasn’t played a game and now he’s only a game manager. Good lord.
RE: Putting aside the game manager comment  
BestFeature : 8/24/2019 4:55 pm : link
In comment 14542788 ron mexico said:
Quote:
I thought that was an excellent segment. Guy definitely knows his shit and had the right overall message, dont overreact in either direction.

One note specific to the Jones criticism on the TD vs the jets, he didn't make the same mistake vs the bears, he threw it with more loft and distance.

If this guy is right that his QB coach would've criticized him on Monday morning, he took that criticism and fixed it the next week.


He probably made solid arguments with regards to the game tape but he completely abused the stat that he used. He used a stat that seems to not correlate with much and got lucky that Jones ended up falling between two game managers that helped corroborate the point. Once again if Jones did WORSE in this stat and ended up at 7.6 and not 8.2, his argument would be shot to pieces. Then he'd have to criticize him buy saying he's between Brady, Big Ben, and Andrew Luck. Still better than that scrub Brees though.

*I'm taking the stats presented at face value, but I wouldn't be surprised since the 4 QBs mentioned there were all below 17.
Key missing word in prior post (2 posts ago)  
ChaChing : 8/24/2019 5:11 pm : link
I actually agree with...

obvious, yet important!
I got a lot out the part where  
ron mexico : 8/24/2019 5:17 pm : link
He broke down the plays and explained route concepts and coverage schemes.

And his overall point is do t take too much from preseason so I wouldn't take too much from his AIAY segment, he was just trying to prove a point.
RE: My response to his video in the comment section  
montanagiant : 8/24/2019 5:40 pm : link
In comment 14542702 BestFeature said:
Quote:
Brett, I've been a long time fan of yours but this video hurts your credibility big time. You come off as someone desperately trying to rationalize your stance on Jones.

Here are the problems with this video:

1) You say stats don't matter and are a tool for confirmation bias but then use an obscure stat as a tool for confirmation bias.

2) Jones hasn't taken many shots but has been successful. 4-5 on passes for 127 yards for passes of 20 yards or more.

3) Shurmur putting him in a position to succeed is what every good coach does for his QB, especially a young one. Bill Belichick has made a career as GOAT coach by doing this and he's facilitated Tom Brady becoming the GOAT QB.

4) Shurmur and Jones are a packaged deal that will be here beyond the preseason so even if he's making Jones look better than he is that will continue in the regular season.

5) This stat doesn't give the QB credit for hitting players in stride for YAC which is a major part of a modern offense.

6) You made a video last year about how the Saints are a methodical offense that is very efficient with Drew Brees under center.

7) The stat is pretty useless. It's as if you didn't even read your ranker. Two rookies and two mediocre QBs had a better ranking than Mahomes. By my count only 7 of the top 15 are good established QBs, these are the QBs that are supposed to be compared favorably to Jones. You couldn't get a more random list if you just put names into a hat.

8) The variance between these isn't that big either. The difference between 8 and 17 is 0.7 of a yard. So how much does the ranking even mean?

9) QBs not in that list, because they're below Alex Smith, include Tom Brady (7.7), Ben Roethlisberger (7.7), Andrew Luck (7.6), and Drew Brees (7.1).

10) You lucked out that sitting there at 16/17 where Jones would fall were two perfect examples of game managers in Dalton and Smith. If Jones performed WORSE in this stat and had 7.6, you wouldn't even make this video because "this puts him between Tom Brady, Ben Roethlisberger, and Andrew Luck" doesn't corroborate your point and would make your argument null and void. For that argument to make statistical sense you should have looked at QBs at 16 or lower since presumably the lower you go the more "game manager" those QBs become and this way you wouldn't be looking at two random QBs in a random list that just so happened to be at 16 and 17.

In summary, you're great at analyzing plays. However, you abused statistics something fierce here. Ironically after lecturing others for doing the same. You pretty clearly want to defend a take that right now appears to possibly (keyword here) be uninformed and did a sloppy job of making your case. I don't know 1/1000 of what you know in analyzing film but I know how to call bullshit on stats abuse.

Excellent response
RE: Here is what we know...  
Bill L : 8/24/2019 5:47 pm : link
In comment 14542752 bw in dc said:
Quote:
Jones got hot in game 1 and has stayed hot. It's really that simple. The guy has been in a zone.

And by and large he's made most of the throws you'd have to make in most games.

Now, the great unknowns we all think about remain:

-- Can he perform similarly against the Varsity Ds?
-- Can he manage real game speed?
-- Can he perform as a similar level for a full game?
-- Can he deal with pressure?
-- Can he make plays off script?
-- Etc.

The best way to start getting these answers is for the DJ to play right away. But it seems we're going old school and will force him to wait...


LOL. *Never* change, my friend.
The talking heads  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 8/24/2019 5:57 pm : link
continue to try yo talk themselves out of the corner rather than admit that they were fucking clueless on draft day.

Rinse and repeat
They talked about how good he looked in mini camp  
cjac : 8/24/2019 5:59 pm : link
But it’s just a mini camp, then they talked about how good he looked in practice. But it’s just practice.

Now he’s playing against other teams in preseason and he looks great. But it’s only preseason. Hopefully at some point he’ll just look terrible and all the naysayers will be proven right
That video is humiliating for him  
twostepgiants : 8/24/2019 6:04 pm : link
Stats are meaningless except the one secret stat that proves I was right along!

And look at this one pass that coulda woulda shoulda been intercepted...

Gimme a break.
you guys are funny  
FranchiseQB : 8/24/2019 6:27 pm : link
this analysis is basically correct. Jones is being managed within a well-defined system with mostly pre-defined reads and plays that require simple execution. That's basically this guy's argument.

Why does it bother you so?

Jones is not improvising, making multiple reads, or making very many daring throws. He is being handled carefully and so far he is excelling.
I don't think anyone's bothered by it so much  
ChaChing : 8/24/2019 6:47 pm : link
as it's just not a well made argument. As it is he contradicts all his main points from the start

Honestly, on a 5/5 TD drive after saying 'you have to watch tape' you basically gloss over 'accuracy, ball placement, timing, decision-making' by the QB. Say these are important but still champion the coach? None of that makes any sense really

Also I'm not sure why improvising is some definitive measure. In fact, you might call a rook who makes the right reads and DOESN'T tuck & run too often more NFL ready. So IMO his argument is vague and poorly made (whether or not you like DJ)
RE: I don't think anyone's bothered by it so much  
FranchiseQB : 8/24/2019 6:52 pm : link
In comment 14542937 ChaChing said:
Quote:
as it's just not a well made argument. As it is he contradicts all his main points from the start

Honestly, on a 5/5 TD drive after saying 'you have to watch tape' you basically gloss over 'accuracy, ball placement, timing, decision-making' by the QB. Say these are important but still champion the coach? None of that makes any sense really

Also I'm not sure why improvising is some definitive measure. In fact, you might call a rook who makes the right reads and DOESN'T tuck & run too often more NFL ready. So IMO his argument is vague and poorly made (whether or not you like DJ)


Jones isn't making the "right" read. He is making the "only" read. The play is tight and defined. He excelled in this in college. That's not how the greats play the position.
RE: RE: I don't think anyone's bothered by it so much  
BSIMatt : 8/24/2019 6:56 pm : link
In comment 14542945 FranchiseQB said:
Quote:
In comment 14542937 ChaChing said:


Quote:


as it's just not a well made argument. As it is he contradicts all his main points from the start

Honestly, on a 5/5 TD drive after saying 'you have to watch tape' you basically gloss over 'accuracy, ball placement, timing, decision-making' by the QB. Say these are important but still champion the coach? None of that makes any sense really

Also I'm not sure why improvising is some definitive measure. In fact, you might call a rook who makes the right reads and DOESN'T tuck & run too often more NFL ready. So IMO his argument is vague and poorly made (whether or not you like DJ)



Jones isn't making the "right" read. He is making the "only" read. The play is tight and defined. He excelled in this in college. That's not how the greats play the position.


What are you talking about? One play? Or all 30 of his pass attempts?
RE: RE: RE: I don't think anyone's bothered by it so much  
FranchiseQB : 8/24/2019 6:58 pm : link
In comment 14542948 BSIMatt said:
Quote:
In comment 14542945 FranchiseQB said:


Quote:


In comment 14542937 ChaChing said:


Quote:


as it's just not a well made argument. As it is he contradicts all his main points from the start

Honestly, on a 5/5 TD drive after saying 'you have to watch tape' you basically gloss over 'accuracy, ball placement, timing, decision-making' by the QB. Say these are important but still champion the coach? None of that makes any sense really

Also I'm not sure why improvising is some definitive measure. In fact, you might call a rook who makes the right reads and DOESN'T tuck & run too often more NFL ready. So IMO his argument is vague and poorly made (whether or not you like DJ)



Jones isn't making the "right" read. He is making the "only" read. The play is tight and defined. He excelled in this in college. That's not how the greats play the position.



What are you talking about? One play? Or all 30 of his pass attempts?


All of them. He is executing simple concepts. He is not dropping back and going through multiple reads. He has his main target and his outlet. That's most of what Jones is doing.
Geez, the guy's been the best QB in the NFL in the 2019 season  
Bill L : 8/24/2019 6:59 pm : link
Cant we just enjoy it for what it is?
RE: Geez, the guy's been the best QB in the NFL in the 2019 season  
FranchiseQB : 8/24/2019 6:59 pm : link
In comment 14542952 Bill L said:
Quote:
Cant we just enjoy it for what it is?


ok sure.. Jones is the best QB in the nfl..
RE: RE: RE: RE: I don't think anyone's bothered by it so much  
BSIMatt : 8/24/2019 7:00 pm : link
In comment 14542951 FranchiseQB said:
Quote:
In comment 14542948 BSIMatt said:


Quote:


In comment 14542945 FranchiseQB said:


Quote:


In comment 14542937 ChaChing said:


Quote:


as it's just not a well made argument. As it is he contradicts all his main points from the start

Honestly, on a 5/5 TD drive after saying 'you have to watch tape' you basically gloss over 'accuracy, ball placement, timing, decision-making' by the QB. Say these are important but still champion the coach? None of that makes any sense really

Also I'm not sure why improvising is some definitive measure. In fact, you might call a rook who makes the right reads and DOESN'T tuck & run too often more NFL ready. So IMO his argument is vague and poorly made (whether or not you like DJ)



Jones isn't making the "right" read. He is making the "only" read. The play is tight and defined. He excelled in this in college. That's not how the greats play the position.



What are you talking about? One play? Or all 30 of his pass attempts?



All of them. He is executing simple concepts. He is not dropping back and going through multiple reads. He has his main target and his outlet. That's most of what Jones is doing.


Yup, that’s what I thought you meant. Sorry dude, you are completely full of shit.
RE: RE: Geez, the guy's been the best QB in the NFL in the 2019 season  
Bill L : 8/24/2019 7:01 pm : link
In comment 14542954 FranchiseQB said:
Quote:
In comment 14542952 Bill L said:


Quote:


Cant we just enjoy it for what it is?



ok sure.. Jones is the best QB in the nfl..
did I say that?
RE: I don't think anyone's bothered by it so much  
ron mexico : 8/24/2019 7:02 pm : link
In comment 14542937 ChaChing said:
Quote:
as it's just not a well made argument. As it is he contradicts all his main points from the start

Honestly, on a 5/5 TD drive after saying 'you have to watch tape' you basically gloss over 'accuracy, ball placement, timing, decision-making' by the QB. Say these are important but still champion the coach? None of that makes any sense really

Also I'm not sure why improvising is some definitive measure. In fact, you might call a rook who makes the right reads and DOESN'T tuck & run too often more NFL ready. So IMO his argument is vague and poorly made (whether or not you like DJ)


I took his point there is that he hasn't shown that yet. Not that he never will.

Overall I didn't think he was negative towards Jones at all, just contextualized the success he had.

I'm no QB or X and O guru so I can't tell if what he is saying with regards to scheme difficulty is true or not, but he sounded convincing to me.

I will say that he convinced me that the point Cris Carter was making on the Jets TD throw seems legitimate
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I don't think anyone's bothered by it so much  
FranchiseQB : 8/24/2019 7:05 pm : link
In comment 14542956 BSIMatt said:
Quote:
In comment 14542951 FranchiseQB said:


Quote:


In comment 14542948 BSIMatt said:


Quote:


In comment 14542945 FranchiseQB said:


Quote:


In comment 14542937 ChaChing said:


Quote:


as it's just not a well made argument. As it is he contradicts all his main points from the start

Honestly, on a 5/5 TD drive after saying 'you have to watch tape' you basically gloss over 'accuracy, ball placement, timing, decision-making' by the QB. Say these are important but still champion the coach? None of that makes any sense really

Also I'm not sure why improvising is some definitive measure. In fact, you might call a rook who makes the right reads and DOESN'T tuck & run too often more NFL ready. So IMO his argument is vague and poorly made (whether or not you like DJ)



Jones isn't making the "right" read. He is making the "only" read. The play is tight and defined. He excelled in this in college. That's not how the greats play the position.



What are you talking about? One play? Or all 30 of his pass attempts?



All of them. He is executing simple concepts. He is not dropping back and going through multiple reads. He has his main target and his outlet. That's most of what Jones is doing.



Yup, that’s what I thought you meant. Sorry dude, you are completely full of shit.


thanks for you diplomacy. If you think Jones is playing a full arsenal nfl game you're the one who is full of it. The point this dude is making is that Shurmur is making it easier for Jones than let's say what Haskins is asked to do in Washington. Not just my opinion, this is Greg Cosell too. Jones is very encouraging so far but he performing within tightly constrained and scripted concepts.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I don't think anyone's bothered by it so much  
sxdxca : 8/24/2019 7:06 pm : link
In comment 14542951 FranchiseQB said:
Quote:
In comment 14542948 BSIMatt said:


Quote:


In comment 14542945 FranchiseQB said:?



All of them. He is executing simple concepts. He is not dropping back and going through multiple reads. He has his main target and his outlet. That's most of what Jones is doing.


Hi Franchise,

Are you watching the games all the way through?

If you notice, Jones pump fakes one way, uses his eyes to hold the safety so that he can get the target he wants open.

That's what seasoned veterans do after playing for 5 years, he's doing it now as a rookie in preseason it's impressive.

On top of being accurate and throwing beautifully placed balls.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I don't think anyone's bothered by it so much  
FranchiseQB : 8/24/2019 7:12 pm : link
In comment 14542964 sxdxca said:
Quote:
In comment 14542951 FranchiseQB said:


Quote:


In comment 14542948 BSIMatt said:


Quote:


In comment 14542945 FranchiseQB said:?



All of them. He is executing simple concepts. He is not dropping back and going through multiple reads. He has his main target and his outlet. That's most of what Jones is doing.



Hi Franchise,

Are you watching the games all the way through?

If you notice, Jones pump fakes one way, uses his eyes to hold the safety so that he can get the target he wants open.

That's what seasoned veterans do after playing for 5 years, he's doing it now as a rookie in preseason it's impressive.

On top of being accurate and throwing beautifully placed balls.


looking off the safety is the design of the play. Jones is not playing the position like Peyton or Luck or Brady - yet... He is learning. He is learning quickly. I am optimistic about jones. I was happy when they drafted him. I was on this board board saying i was cautiously optimistic about the selection. I had no problem passing on Allen for him. But he is still in the learning phase. fyi - with a good enough game manager you can still win a super bowl.
RE: RE: I don't think anyone's bothered by it so much  
ChaChing : 8/24/2019 7:40 pm : link
In comment 14542958 ron mexico said:
Quote:
In comment 14542937 ChaChing said:
Quote:
as it's just not a well made argument. As it is he contradicts all his main points from the start

Honestly, on a 5/5 TD drive after saying 'you have to watch tape' you basically gloss over 'accuracy, ball placement, timing, decision-making' by the QB. Say these are important but still champion the coach? None of that makes any sense really

Also I'm not sure why improvising is some definitive measure. In fact, you might call a rook who makes the right reads and DOESN'T tuck & run too often more NFL ready. So IMO his argument is vague and poorly made (whether or not you like DJ)


I took his point there is that he hasn't shown that yet. Not that he never will.

Overall I didn't think he was negative towards Jones at all, just contextualized the success he had.

I'm no QB or X and O guru so I can't tell if what he is saying with regards to scheme difficulty is true or not, but he sounded convincing to me.

I will say that he convinced me that the point Cris Carter was making on the Jets TD throw seems legitimate

I agree he didn't say never will, but that wasn't the intention of his vid. He says not to over-analyze stats or preseason at least w/o context, and does just that w/ an esoteric stat and cherry picked details

But fine, context. Why does DJ's system matter to 'downplay' or 'normalize' his stats, but no mention of either WAS or AZ's O? While KM was hand-picked by KK at #1 for this reason, shouldn't he be better in context of preseason stats then? Ignoring that is improper context and poor analysis, if not simply biased (intentional or not). You can't make a point for ONE QB and not apply it to the others and say it's objective (another major point of his vid). Or bring up AIAY and conveniently ignore where the best QBs fall...sure any random cherry picked stats for random players can be pointed in any direction...

And while I don't care what he thinks about DJ, I can evaluate his reasoning for that opinion...and it's just not very good. Skewed, biased, incomplete, contradictory, poor analysis IMO
Game manager?  
Prude : 8/24/2019 7:49 pm : link
People use the 'game manager' as an insult when they can't find any actual flaw in their game but just don't like him.

I still see people calling Brady a game manager and it blows my mind. Sign me up for a game manager if Jones can do half what he has done
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I don't think anyone's bothered by it so much  
BestFeature : 8/24/2019 8:02 pm : link
In comment 14542961 FranchiseQB said:
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In comment 14542956 BSIMatt said:


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In comment 14542951 FranchiseQB said:


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In comment 14542948 BSIMatt said:


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In comment 14542945 FranchiseQB said:


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In comment 14542937 ChaChing said:


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as it's just not a well made argument. As it is he contradicts all his main points from the start

Honestly, on a 5/5 TD drive after saying 'you have to watch tape' you basically gloss over 'accuracy, ball placement, timing, decision-making' by the QB. Say these are important but still champion the coach? None of that makes any sense really

Also I'm not sure why improvising is some definitive measure. In fact, you might call a rook who makes the right reads and DOESN'T tuck & run too often more NFL ready. So IMO his argument is vague and poorly made (whether or not you like DJ)



Jones isn't making the "right" read. He is making the "only" read. The play is tight and defined. He excelled in this in college. That's not how the greats play the position.



What are you talking about? One play? Or all 30 of his pass attempts?



All of them. He is executing simple concepts. He is not dropping back and going through multiple reads. He has his main target and his outlet. That's most of what Jones is doing.



Yup, that’s what I thought you meant. Sorry dude, you are completely full of shit.



thanks for you diplomacy. If you think Jones is playing a full arsenal nfl game you're the one who is full of it. The point this dude is making is that Shurmur is making it easier for Jones than let's say what Haskins is asked to do in Washington. Not just my opinion, this is Greg Cosell too. Jones is very encouraging so far but he performing within tightly constrained and scripted concepts.


It was Greg Cosell's point after his 5 passes in the very first game. Since then his multiple reads have been highlighted multiple times. Your argument is outdated. Furthermore, no he's not getting the full kitchen sink thrown ar him by Shurmur, that's smart coaching and exactly how smart coaches bring up their young players. There's nothing to be ashamed of. Finally, he's using a meaningless stat to discredit Jones. He's using it poorly at that. As I said if Jones had 7.6 intended yards and not 8.2 his argument would not be made because it's a lot harder to discredit a QB that's in the company of Tom Brady, Ben Roethlisberger, and Andrew Luck, than Alex Smith and Andy Dalton.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I don't think anyone's bothered by it so much  
FranchiseQB : 8/24/2019 8:05 pm : link
In comment 14543043 BestFeature said:
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In comment 14542961 FranchiseQB said:


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In comment 14542956 BSIMatt said:


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In comment 14542951 FranchiseQB said:


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In comment 14542948 BSIMatt said:


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In comment 14542945 FranchiseQB said:


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In comment 14542937 ChaChing said:


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as it's just not a well made argument. As it is he contradicts all his main points from the start

Honestly, on a 5/5 TD drive after saying 'you have to watch tape' you basically gloss over 'accuracy, ball placement, timing, decision-making' by the QB. Say these are important but still champion the coach? None of that makes any sense really

Also I'm not sure why improvising is some definitive measure. In fact, you might call a rook who makes the right reads and DOESN'T tuck & run too often more NFL ready. So IMO his argument is vague and poorly made (whether or not you like DJ)



Jones isn't making the "right" read. He is making the "only" read. The play is tight and defined. He excelled in this in college. That's not how the greats play the position.



What are you talking about? One play? Or all 30 of his pass attempts?



All of them. He is executing simple concepts. He is not dropping back and going through multiple reads. He has his main target and his outlet. That's most of what Jones is doing.



Yup, that’s what I thought you meant. Sorry dude, you are completely full of shit.



thanks for you diplomacy. If you think Jones is playing a full arsenal nfl game you're the one who is full of it. The point this dude is making is that Shurmur is making it easier for Jones than let's say what Haskins is asked to do in Washington. Not just my opinion, this is Greg Cosell too. Jones is very encouraging so far but he performing within tightly constrained and scripted concepts.



It was Greg Cosell's point after his 5 passes in the very first game. Since then his multiple reads have been highlighted multiple times. Your argument is outdated. Furthermore, no he's not getting the full kitchen sink thrown ar him by Shurmur, that's smart coaching and exactly how smart coaches bring up their young players. There's nothing to be ashamed of. Finally, he's using a meaningless stat to discredit Jones. He's using it poorly at that. As I said if Jones had 7.6 intended yards and not 8.2 his argument would not be made because it's a lot harder to discredit a QB that's in the company of Tom Brady, Ben Roethlisberger, and Andrew Luck, than Alex Smith and Andy Dalton.


it is good coaching. in fact this dude makes the same exact point. and it is smart for Shurmur to give him just enough to succeed and look good doing it. And it is amazing that Jones is playing within this system nearly flawlessly. all good. all good.
See that's one of my other ?s about this debate  
ChaChing : 8/24/2019 8:14 pm : link
so for years we've heard how many young QBs tuck & run too soon, moving into improvise mode if not just eyes coming off WRs & running, due to inexperience / phantom pressure

Now because he's not doing that it's a bad thing? In a lot of ways doesn't this indicates a more NFL ready player? Actually given he does have wheels, I've been surprised we haven't seen more of that...

Either way it's not a big deal given it's such a small sample in preseason. Just not sure I understand the arguments at times
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I don't think anyone's bothered by it so much  
BestFeature : 8/24/2019 8:44 pm : link
In comment 14543047 FranchiseQB said:
Quote:
In comment 14543043 BestFeature said:


Quote:


In comment 14542961 FranchiseQB said:


Quote:


In comment 14542956 BSIMatt said:


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In comment 14542951 FranchiseQB said:


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In comment 14542948 BSIMatt said:


Quote:


In comment 14542945 FranchiseQB said:


Quote:


In comment 14542937 ChaChing said:


Quote:


as it's just not a well made argument. As it is he contradicts all his main points from the start

Honestly, on a 5/5 TD drive after saying 'you have to watch tape' you basically gloss over 'accuracy, ball placement, timing, decision-making' by the QB. Say these are important but still champion the coach? None of that makes any sense really

Also I'm not sure why improvising is some definitive measure. In fact, you might call a rook who makes the right reads and DOESN'T tuck & run too often more NFL ready. So IMO his argument is vague and poorly made (whether or not you like DJ)



Jones isn't making the "right" read. He is making the "only" read. The play is tight and defined. He excelled in this in college. That's not how the greats play the position.



What are you talking about? One play? Or all 30 of his pass attempts?



All of them. He is executing simple concepts. He is not dropping back and going through multiple reads. He has his main target and his outlet. That's most of what Jones is doing.



Yup, that’s what I thought you meant. Sorry dude, you are completely full of shit.



thanks for you diplomacy. If you think Jones is playing a full arsenal nfl game you're the one who is full of it. The point this dude is making is that Shurmur is making it easier for Jones than let's say what Haskins is asked to do in Washington. Not just my opinion, this is Greg Cosell too. Jones is very encouraging so far but he performing within tightly constrained and scripted concepts.



It was Greg Cosell's point after his 5 passes in the very first game. Since then his multiple reads have been highlighted multiple times. Your argument is outdated. Furthermore, no he's not getting the full kitchen sink thrown ar him by Shurmur, that's smart coaching and exactly how smart coaches bring up their young players. There's nothing to be ashamed of. Finally, he's using a meaningless stat to discredit Jones. He's using it poorly at that. As I said if Jones had 7.6 intended yards and not 8.2 his argument would not be made because it's a lot harder to discredit a QB that's in the company of Tom Brady, Ben Roethlisberger, and Andrew Luck, than Alex Smith and Andy Dalton.



it is good coaching. in fact this dude makes the same exact point. and it is smart for Shurmur to give him just enough to succeed and look good doing it. And it is amazing that Jones is playing within this system nearly flawlessly. all good. all good.


But Brett is discrediting him. He even said any QB can make those throws and harped on one imperfect pass out of 30. Plus, the statistic he used is garbage and has been debunked multiple times in this thread. The guy clearly doesn't understand how stats work. And this is after making a fuss about misleading statistics.
RE: See that's one of my other ?s about this debate  
BestFeature : 8/24/2019 8:46 pm : link
In comment 14543054 ChaChing said:
Quote:
so for years we've heard how many young QBs tuck & run too soon, moving into improvise mode if not just eyes coming off WRs & running, due to inexperience / phantom pressure

Now because he's not doing that it's a bad thing? In a lot of ways doesn't this indicates a more NFL ready player? Actually given he does have wheels, I've been surprised we haven't seen more of that...

Either way it's not a big deal given it's such a small sample in preseason. Just not sure I understand the arguments at times


By in large he hasn't had to do it. His pocket has been clean for most of his passes. If there's any caveat that's one.
I just watched Joe Montana highlights  
BestFeature : 8/25/2019 12:42 am : link
and Brett would be calling Haskins better if he played today.
RE: I just watched Joe Montana highlights  
ChaChing : 8/25/2019 12:48 am : link
In comment 14543398 BestFeature said:
Quote:
and Brett would be calling Haskins better if he played today.

Based on his analysis, DJ can go out and just chuck more balls as far as possible without making ONE completion and 'be better' for it...somehow
Dumb video  
Breeze_94 : 8/25/2019 1:34 am : link
the guy is taking credit away from Jones for reading the defense and throwing the ball on time to the correct receiver. That makes him a game manager apparently. If that's the case, then Tom Brady is a game manager as well. QB play doesn't have to be flashy for it to be effective.

A game manager is a guy who may not always make the play, but can run the offense with decent success and limit turnovers.
DJ just a game manager?  
ChaChing : 8/25/2019 2:15 am : link
Isn't..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/25/2019 7:26 am : link
the term "game manager" used to describe a QB who is risk averse, who doesn't try to make many plays downfield that could result in a turnover, and tries to manage ball control and field position to put his D is an excellent situation?

How can somebody watch Jones and come away with that impression. People like Trent Dilfer and Mark Sanchez were game managers.
Dak Prescott  
cjac : 8/28/2019 6:45 am : link
Is a game manager. He’s won the division twice in his first 3 seasons

I’d take that
RE: Isn't..  
Zeke's Alibi : 8/28/2019 7:25 am : link
In comment 14543471 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
the term "game manager" used to describe a QB who is risk averse, who doesn't try to make many plays downfield that could result in a turnover, and tries to manage ball control and field position to put his D is an excellent situation?

How can somebody watch Jones and come away with that impression. People like Trent Dilfer and Mark Sanchez were game managers.


A game manager to me is a guy that will win if you can run the ball and keep his passing attempts under 30 and will lose you the majority of games where he is throwing 40 plus times.
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