He started off by saying QB stats were meaningless (okay, that's his opinion) and the eyeball test is the only true measure. Okay, his opinion. But then he goes on to USE stats to make his case against Jones.
is an example of how radio guys and guys on ESPN just say crap because its entertainment its not real analysis. There are some that know what they're talking about and give good analysis but most of these guys are just taking contrary positions to cause controversy and get ratings.
He started off by saying QB stats were meaningless (okay, that's his opinion) and the eyeball test is the only true measure. Okay, his opinion. But then he goes on to USE stats to make his case against Jones.
So he is talking out of both sides of his mouth.
Exactly what I was thinking. He is just trying to cover himself up after criticising Giants for choosing Jones over Haskins
How many of these comments would be more favorable to the guy Â
He seemed to have taken shots in some places and taken what the defense has given him in other places. He's hit on all of his longer throws. This stat also doesn't give him credit for hitting guys in stride and getting yards after the catch. Today's game is all about short and intermediate throws, so even if he's really good at that I don't see a problem.
Linking people like this therefore giving them clicks?
No I didn't click the link
The guy is very good. I don't know what "people like this means". He's actually very good. I'm not happy that he didn't give Jones more credit, but we can't link people that don't agree with us 100%?
I get the idea behind air yards but it seems like it next logical step would be to look at the deeper passes. You can either say preseason doesn't matter or things are looking way up. Dislocating both arms to reach for another scenario is just pathetic.
Left 0-10: 5/8 59 yards
Mid 0-10: 4/4 53 yards
Right 0-10: 9/9 106 yards
Left 11-20: 2/2 46 yards 1 TD
Right 11-20: 1/2 12 yards 1 TD
Left 20+: 2/2 67 yards
Middle 20+ 1/2 35 yards
Right 20+: 1/1 25 yards
Linking people like this therefore giving them clicks?
No I didn't click the link
The guy is very good. I don't know what "people like this means". He's actually very good. I'm not happy that he didn't give Jones more credit, but we can't link people that don't agree with us 100%?
Do what you wish. Perhaps he has credentials to backup his analysis. But if he did call Jones a game manager isn't that a bit soon to declare as is declaring Jones a success?
What's bullshit is that I think he completed every long throw Â
he's made, but because he didn't have as many as some other guys he's a game manager? And once again short and intermediate throws are important parts of the game, why are we not giving him credit for those and giving him credit for hitting guys in stride and getting YAC?
But bear in mind that he put out a video titled "The Giants CANNOT afford to pass on Dwayne Haskins," and then absolutely destroyed them after the draft. Completely and utterly destroyed them.
So, there might be a bit of confirmation bias at play here.
The link below will take you to the Haskins video and his recap of the NFC East draft.
Is that he starts off saying that people will use stats that prove their point if they like the player and vice versa if they don't and that is a bad thing.
He then proceeds to do exactly the same thing by picking out a seldom used stat to make his point...LOL
This guy starts with all this talk about being objective, not looking at stats (since people misread them). Then uses 'intended air yards' only, and basically somehow says because DJ's tend to be smaller, the other 2 are better somehow?
Then dissects one drive, a rook QBs first no less, and basically due to one shaky throw says it's not a good drive? Basically says 'it's good accuracy, decision-making, execution BUT..." and then says it's Shurmur & play design only? Yeah, he executed it...that's a good, not bad thing. So if that fade was a perfect throw, is DJ the best? Awful analysis
Then, after saying he's going to use tape...where's even ONE drive of Haskins or Murray? Literally contradicts himself, and makes very little sense as an overall argument. Honestly after saying he wanted to remove agendas...he clearly had one whether it's staying w/ his original scouting reports or just proving the preseason narratives are preemptive & small samples...didn't need 15 min of vid to know that
Linking people like this therefore giving them clicks?
No I didn't click the link
The guy is very good. I don't know what "people like this means". He's actually very good. I'm not happy that he didn't give Jones more credit, but we can't link people that don't agree with us 100%?
Do what you wish. Perhaps he has credentials to backup his analysis. But if he did call Jones a game manager isn't that a bit soon to declare as is declaring Jones a success?
I'm not a fan of this video because I have a feeling he's a) trying to be a contrarian b) trying to cover his own ass. What I meant that in general, the guy isn't a scrub is one of the better analysts out there. That's why it sounds like my opinions here are conflicted. In general, I like the guy but I think he's while not 100% off base here, has ulterior motives in this video.
If being a game manager is so easy and preseason doesn't matter, how comes no one in at least 13 years has been able to replicated Jones's numbers in preseason?
Is useless if you can't admit your mistakes. I certainly can't say for sure that is what is happening here, but it doesn't seem that unlikely given some of the feedback by posters I trust.
RE: How many of these comments would be more favorable to the guy Â
But bear in mind that he put out a video titled "The Giants CANNOT afford to pass on Dwayne Haskins," and then absolutely destroyed them after the draft. Completely and utterly destroyed them.
So, there might be a bit of confirmation bias at play here.
The link below will take you to the Haskins video and his recap of the NFC East draft.
Link - ( New Window )
That's probably what put me off the most about this video. He shit on other people for confirmation bias whereas here he clearly has it himself. Disappointing video from a guy that I really like. I thought he was above this nonsense.
There will be extended resistance to accepting Jones as a success... Â
Was “maybe we should be praising Shurmur..” as play calling yielded passes to wide open receivers. Of course that’s a stretch as DJ fit some really nice stuff in. But if he thinks we’ve got a bunch wide open now, wait till SB gets on the field.
This guy starts with all this talk about being objective, not looking at stats (since people misread them). Then uses 'intended air yards' only, and basically somehow says because DJ's tend to be smaller, the other 2 are better somehow?
Then dissects one drive, a rook QBs first no less, and basically due to one shaky throw says it's not a good drive? Basically says 'it's good accuracy, decision-making, execution BUT..." and then says it's Shurmur & play design only? Yeah, he executed it...that's a good, not bad thing. So if that fade was a perfect throw, is DJ the best? Awful analysis
Then, after saying he's going to use tape...where's even ONE drive of Haskins or Murray? Literally contradicts himself, and makes very little sense as an overall argument. Honestly after saying he wanted to remove agendas...he clearly had one whether it's staying w/ his original scouting reports or just proving the preseason narratives are preemptive & small samples...didn't need 15 min of vid to know that
Also, if we're penalizing QBs for their coaches putting them in a position to succeed then Tom Brady is just an average quarterback.
Was “maybe we should be praising Shurmur..” as play calling yielded passes to wide open receivers. Of course that’s a stretch as DJ fit some really nice stuff in. But if he thinks we’ve got a bunch wide open now, wait till SB gets on the field.
Is useless if you can't admit your mistakes. I certainly can't say for sure that is what is happening here, but it doesn't seem that unlikely given some of the feedback by posters I trust.
Maybe one day he'll do a video like this for Daniel Jones:
Was “maybe we should be praising Shurmur..” as play calling yielded passes to wide open receivers. Of course that’s a stretch as DJ fit some really nice stuff in. But if he thinks we’ve got a bunch wide open now, wait till SB gets on the field.
Agreed. But a) I would have liked more examples vs just a quick mention and b) while I'm all about coaches making things simpler & cutting down decision trees esp for QBs, does a good play design detract from the QB's solid execution of it? So much that DJ isn't this good, but Murray & Haskins (who we didn't bother to watch tho it's a comparison) never run these kinds of plays? Maybe they suck at short-mid yardage accuracy? Or make bad decisions to check out of the 1st read due to hesitation / mis-reads, or a tendency to move in the pocket or run?
Really awful analysis. Not because it was anti-DJ, just poorly constructed
Tom Brady in 2018 averaged 7.7 yards per intended air yards which ranked him 24th.
Big Ben had 7.7
Drew Brees had 7.1
Luck had 7.6
Dude put out a good video last year showing how to stop the Saints because their offense is predicated on long drives full of short passes. Now it's a bad thing. He's contradicting himself. Outside of a season or 2, that's all Tom Brady has done himself. This is nonsense.
Also if Pat Shurmur IS putting him in a position to succeed Â
BB is phenomenal at this, even if Brady is so great (he is)
Cassell, Brissett, Garrapolo...IMO making it easier on your players doesn't make them worse players (tho I get what he's trying to say). Esp if you're watching them execute it correctly and w/ consistency
So he’s saying jones has made “easy” throws. How about timing accuracy and mechanics and manipulating the defense. That doesn’t matter? He says they are easy throws but let’s give him credit..... Very very stupid video and he contradicts himself throughout it.
I don't mind when critics say we should pump the brakes Â
But this is incomplete analysis. So Jones tends to throw "safer", shorter passes than Haskins, but we don't take into account his ability to place the ball nicely, giving his receivers opportunities to get YAC?
And the "coach is putting him in easy positions to succeed" argument is already getting old. Gee, isn't that the function of a coach?
This is the hill he's willing to die on? By my count only 7 of these QBs are even any good, out of the remaining 10, 8 were nothing special or young but didn't have amazing seasons and 2 were guys like Dalton and Smith who are meh. 5 QBs including career backup Fitzpatrick and mediocre Jameis Winston had better stats than Patrick Mahomes. As already mentioned, some of the best QBs in the NFL didn't make this list. This stat is nonsense. You might as well just pick random QB names out of a bag. Honestly, a disappointing video by a guy trying to put out edgy commentary and save face. He's a guy that as I said, I thought was above that. Too bad.
Linking people like this therefore giving them clicks?
No I didn't click the link
The guy is very good. I don't know what "people like this means". He's actually very good. I'm not happy that he didn't give Jones more credit, but we can't link people that don't agree with us 100%?
He never liked Jones to begin with. He will make excuses he's blue in the face.
Suggesting that Jones ball placement on the touchdown Â
was "the same" as Haskins on the INT is a joke. In one case, the ball was outside of coverage at the edge of the endzone and exactly on the receiver. In Haskins case, the ball was inside of the coverage and closer to the defender than the receiver.
I like this guy but to then base his entire argument on Jones' first professional drive is crap.
And the stat that he thinks is so telling: Jones maybe throwing it shorter than his gross yardage, but he is throwing it with enough accuracy and touch that his receivers are getting great yards after catch. That part of the play isn't just the receiver, it is the play of the QB.
to me is it mainly means a different thing - a negative-ish comment saying a QB doesn't have a big arm or gunslinger-esque plays in him. Which on it's own doesn't correlate to winning. Iirc, Cutler, George, guys like that...well they aren't game managers, but I bet you wish they managed the game better than just using the big arm
Mean time, the greats ALL are great game managers big arm or not. IMO most of them just do it automatically, if not have coaching staffs that handle it well. But to act like Brady, Brees, Montana those guys weren't efficient w/ clock, TOs, if not understanding game situations in general...
Game Manager is a funny label IMO. Few if any QBs or coaches win SBs without doing it well
As already mentioned Andy Dalton and Alex Smith were where Jones would have ended up. But they were better than Drew Brees and Tom Brady. Imagine if by happenstance Drew Brees and Tom Brady were BETTER than they were and in those spots this video wouldn't even exist. Randomly two of the bigger game managers ending up on a more or less random list proves his point. His point would have been a lot more difficult to make if he said: "This puts him in between Tom Brady and Drew Brees". So he's cherry-picking stats something fierce here. Exactly what he complained about people doing.
Average intended air yards is a useless stat. Mr "Fuck it I'm Going Â
Deep" Rex Grossman would be HOF bound. And while he is technically correct about the Jets TD pass in theory, he put the ball were the safety wasn't getting it on the field.
and Brady and Brees being not even in the picture shows you that this is a system stat more than anything. Horrible, horrible take.
Right because making accurate passes underneath to maximize Yac is where the game is at. Brees is probably dead fucking last. YPA and TD/Int ratio to me are clearly the most important stats when trying to look at stats and QB play. Everything else falls behind.
not sure that focusing in on "intended air yards" as the most important statistic is the best type of analysis, especially for the preseason. NFL coaches typically have rookie QBs throw shorter, safer, passes in order to understandably build their confidence. Those throws by definition will be for smaller "intended air yards."
Jones has also made extremely good decisions, as well as multiple reads on many throws. His ball placement has been fantastic. As far as his TD against the Jets, the DB almost certainly could have at least knocked it down if he had turned around. But it would have sailed over Fowler's head if Jones had thrown it all the way to the back pylon.
I understand and fully support tempering expectations because it is preseason. I also admit that I did not want Jones at #6 or #17. But his decision making, accuracy, toughness, and leadership have been outstanding.
RE: Average intended air yards is a useless stat. Mr Â
Deep" Rex Grossman would be HOF bound. And while he is technically correct about the Jets TD pass in theory, he put the ball were the safety wasn't getting it on the field.
Hahaha Zeke your comment about Grossman made me laugh, good one!
I've seen a number of your posts over the past couple of months and I don't see what enjoyment you are getting out of being a football fan. You seem to want to be miserable.
Is useless if you can't admit your mistakes. I certainly can't say for sure that is what is happening here, but it doesn't seem that unlikely given some of the feedback by posters I trust.
Maybe one day he'll do a video like this for Daniel Jones:
I was wrong - Patrick Mahomes is ridiculously good
I've seen a number of your posts over the past couple of months and I don't see what enjoyment you are getting out of being a football fan. You seem to want to be miserable.
I think there's a certain type of person that thinks being a pessimist is a badge of honor. We have a few of those people here. They call themselves realists. Almost no one is taking this preseason as some undeniable proof that Jones will be some HOFer but instead of enjoying something we maybe have never seen before in preseason, these people find the need to flex their "realist" muscles. I think they think it makes them more mature or something. I don't even know.
He isn't, but unfortunately, someone who has put out great mostly unbiased content before fell in the same trap of rationalizing what now looks like a possibly uninformed opinion. He lost a lot of credibility with this video. He's still good but I no longer view him as an unbiased analyst.
He isn't, but unfortunately, someone who has put out great mostly unbiased content before fell in the same trap of rationalizing what now looks like a possibly uninformed opinion. He lost a lot of credibility with this video. He's still good but I no longer view him as an unbiased analyst.
Well, not only is this video uninformed, it is in reaction to a previous, just as uninformed video. So, I'm not thinking the guy had any credibility to begin with.
I guess if the sole purpose was to say not to read to much into preseason, well it shouldn't have been billed as a comp between 3 rook QBs
But then talking stats IS reading into it. And saying stats are often misinterpreted while citing ONE random meaningless one as what...? The QB playing well isn't playing THAT well (while ignoring the overall league numbers, TB, DB etc for no reason)
While only breaking down ONE drive, the first (meaningless) preseason drive of ONE of the rook QBs? What could that possibly prove?
Reminds me of a HS student writing a lot, but the A having literally nothing to do w/ the Q (see Billy Madison)
He isn't, but unfortunately, someone who has put out great mostly unbiased content before fell in the same trap of rationalizing what now looks like a possibly uninformed opinion. He lost a lot of credibility with this video. He's still good but I no longer view him as an unbiased analyst.
Well, not only is this video uninformed, it is in reaction to a previous, just as uninformed video. So, I'm not thinking the guy had any credibility to begin with.
The problem is the guy seems like a better analyst of plays than stats guy. So he used a stat that is kind of meaningless and he was sloppy. Look at my post of the players with intended passing yards and look at the previous post who wasn't on that list. It debunks this stat. Ironically he spent like 5 minutes telling us how useless stats are and then himself used a useless stat to prove his point. Honestly, you could have as credible a lost if you just put QBs' names into a hat.
That list proves nothing and he just got lucky that two game managers happened to be 16 and 17 because so that he could make the point. It's an abuse of statistics at its finest. Looking at 2 specific data points to prove a point. At the very least he should have looked at 16 or later because if his point held 18 would be an even bigger game manager and so on. But no, it just so happened that the two perfect game managers were at 16 and 17. And you could find 4 of the best QBs below that but because he wasn't looking below 17 and was just looking at two random points it looks like he said something profound Inexcusable abuse of stats.
An example of this would be like saying no QB who threw for exactly 4,000 yards has won a Super Bowl and therefore saying that only QBs with fewer than 4,000 yards can win a Super Bowl.
this isn't complicated. All you need to do is watch the kid play. He's been amazing. Anyone who says otherwise probably has an agenda.
Can he still be a bust? Can he still suck? Sure.
But no one expected him to be THIS good.
In a more "water downed" than ever preseason. Save the judgement for reg season games. Period..its not like years past .
You're right about judgement until he plays in the regular season. But in a more water downed than ever preaseason, then shouldn't everyone be lighting it up? The "better" prospects like Murray and Haskins, the rookie sensation Mayfield, and even veteran qbs should all have performed better than Jones then, right? But, yet, Jones has been better
RE: The list of QBs with best intended yards stats Â
This is the hill he's willing to die on? By my count only 7 of these QBs are even any good, out of the remaining 10, 8 were nothing special or young but didn't have amazing seasons and 2 were guys like Dalton and Smith who are meh. 5 QBs including career backup Fitzpatrick and mediocre Jameis Winston had better stats than Patrick Mahomes. As already mentioned, some of the best QBs in the NFL didn't make this list. This stat is nonsense. You might as well just pick random QB names out of a bag. Honestly, a disappointing video by a guy trying to put out edgy commentary and save face. He's a guy that as I said, I thought was above that. Too bad.
I know right. When I saw the top four, I'm like what is he getting at. Brady's not even there
As Eric said- what do your eyes tell you? They tell me we don’t have Kent Graham, Danny Kannell, Ryan Nassib or any of the other “hopefuls” ( not named Kerry Collins) who have come along over the years. If you’ve been a Giants fan, you know it when you see it. Even as a rookie, Eli “looked” the part, even when he couldn’t hit the broadside of the barn. Now, Jones could still crash and burn, but it doesn’t seem like that will be the case. I hate stats- good for fantasy football!
As Eric said- what do your eyes tell you? They tell me we don’t have Kent Graham, Danny Kannell, Ryan Nassib or any of the other “hopefuls” ( not named Kerry Collins) who have come along over the years. If you’ve been a Giants fan, you know it when you see it. Even as a rookie, Eli “looked” the part, even when he couldn’t hit the broadside of the barn. Now, Jones could still crash and burn, but it doesn’t seem like that will be the case. I hate stats- good for fantasy football!
Yep, this what DG was saying when he was in full bloom love. DJ looks like professional qb.
Brett, I've been a long time fan of yours but this video hurts your credibility big time. You come off as someone desperately trying to rationalize your stance on Jones.
Here are the problems with this video:
1) You say stats don't matter and are a tool for confirmation bias but then use an obscure stat as a tool for confirmation bias.
2) Jones hasn't taken many shots but has been successful. 4-5 on passes for 127 yards for passes of 20 yards or more.
3) Shurmur putting him in a position to succeed is what every good coach does for his QB, especially a young one. Bill Belichick has made a career as GOAT coach by doing this and he's facilitated Tom Brady becoming the GOAT QB.
4) Shurmur and Jones are a packaged deal that will be here beyond the preseason so even if he's making Jones look better than he is that will continue in the regular season.
5) This stat doesn't give the QB credit for hitting players in stride for YAC which is a major part of a modern offense.
6) You made a video last year about how the Saints are a methodical offense that is very efficient with Drew Brees under center.
7) The stat is pretty useless. It's as if you didn't even read your ranker. Two rookies and two mediocre QBs had a better ranking than Mahomes. By my count only 7 of the top 15 are good established QBs, these are the QBs that are supposed to be compared favorably to Jones. You couldn't get a more random list if you just put names into a hat.
8) The variance between these isn't that big either. The difference between 8 and 17 is 0.7 of a yard. So how much does the ranking even mean?
9) QBs not in that list, because they're below Alex Smith, include Tom Brady (7.7), Ben Roethlisberger (7.7), Andrew Luck (7.6), and Drew Brees (7.1).
10) You lucked out that sitting there at 16/17 where Jones would fall were two perfect examples of game managers in Dalton and Smith. If Jones performed WORSE in this stat and had 7.6, you wouldn't even make this video because "this puts him between Tom Brady, Ben Roethlisberger, and Andrew Luck" doesn't corroborate your point and would make your argument null and void. For that argument to make statistical sense you should have looked at QBs at 16 or lower since presumably the lower you go the more "game manager" those QBs become and this way you wouldn't be looking at two random QBs in a random list that just so happened to be at 16 and 17.
In summary, you're great at analyzing plays. However, you abused statistics something fierce here. Ironically after lecturing others for doing the same. You pretty clearly want to defend a take that right now appears to possibly (keyword here) be uninformed and did a sloppy job of making your case. I don't know 1/1000 of what you know in analyzing film but I know how to call bullshit on stats abuse.
All he did was desperately look for at least one stat against Jones Â
and a Patreon. He is no more an expert than any of us. He never worked in the NFL. He was never a scout paid to be right or wrong about players. He is just a guy making YouTube videos and for some reason some people take him seriously. He has been wrong a lot. Go look at his Christian Hackenberg video where he argued he would be a NFL franchise QB.
Remember all his income comes from people believing he knows something. He already lambasted Daniel Jones. His ability to make money goes down if Jones is a good QB so he must continue to knock him despite all the evidence in front of him. At some point he can't bash him anymore and will do a 180 like with Patrick Mahomes. But honestly, who cares about Brett Kollmann? He is just a fan and not a professional scout or NFL FO guy.
and a Patreon. He is no more an expert than any of us. He never worked in the NFL. He was never a scout paid to be right or wrong about players. He is just a guy making YouTube videos and for some reason some people take him seriously. He has been wrong a lot. Go look at his Christian Hackenberg video where he argued he would be a NFL franchise QB.
Remember all his income comes from people believing he knows something. He already lambasted Daniel Jones. His ability to make money goes down if Jones is a good QB so he must continue to knock him despite all the evidence in front of him. At some point he can't bash him anymore and will do a 180 like with Patrick Mahomes. But honestly, who cares about Brett Kollmann? He is just a fan and not a professional scout or NFL FO guy.
Player evaluation mistakes are one thing but all he had to do was look at his list, the top 4 QBs and QBs that weren't on there to see that this argument is garbage. Extremely sloppy.
That is the job of every QB at every level of football. Good game managers win games and Superbowls. Tom Brady is a game manager. So is Eli. So is Ryan Tannehill. They do it with varying degrees of success.
If the term is being used to say he doesn’t throw the ball in the air far enough, then he is looking for stats, not how the QB executes the offense being called.
You know who was a poor game manager? Jeff George. But I bet this guy loved how he chucked the ball down the field. So that’s nice.
This is why I'm more interested in content than background Â
or title or even experience alone. If Gil Brandt or some other well respected analyst made this vid, I'd personally still say it's pretty poor. This comment isn't about being an NYG or DJ fan, but simply making an argument with supporting facts. More than their opinion, you get the why you can evaluate, refute, learn something new...
This vid states a few hypotheses (stats are misleading, preseason doesn't matter much) then uses a SINGLE PRESEASON STAT to make his point
He also introduces it as a comp between 3 players. Then using that ONE stat again, implies 2 are better (mostly due to air yards I guess?)
He also says to use film. Where's film on KM & DH? And why do we cherry pick the FIRST PRESEASON DRIVE of a rook? That too while ignoring later drives that showed tougher / deep throws. Then says the good throws were his coach and scheme
It's just a poorly constructed, contradictory argument. The only value is a platitude about preseason isn't everything? Even ignorant fans don't need 15 min on these QBs, much less using ONE example as some kind of proof of what's basically a cliche?
That is the job of every QB at every level of football. Good game managers win games and Superbowls. Tom Brady is a game manager. So is Eli. So is Ryan Tannehill. They do it with varying degrees of success.
If the term is being used to say he doesn’t throw the ball in the air far enough, then he is looking for stats, not how the QB executes the offense being called.
You know who was a poor game manager? Jeff George. But I bet this guy loved how he chucked the ball down the field. So that’s nice.
Nice...good post. I said almost the same thing above (w/ Brady & George as 2 examples lol). Tho yours is much more eloquent!
That is the job of every QB at every level of football. Good game managers win games and Superbowls. Tom Brady is a game manager. So is Eli. So is Ryan Tannehill. They do it with varying degrees of success.
If the term is being used to say he doesn’t throw the ball in the air far enough, then he is looking for stats, not how the QB executes the offense being called.
You know who was a poor game manager? Jeff George. But I bet this guy loved how he chucked the ball down the field. So that’s nice.
Nice...good post. I said almost the same thing above (w/ Brady & George as 2 examples lol). Tho yours is much more eloquent!
Joe Montana is another example. Also another example right there with Tom Brady of having an all-time great coach putting him in a position to succeed. If Shurmur does that to Jones how is this a knock on Jones? Was that a knock on Montana and Brady? Maybe a QB like Peyton Manning can succeed with any OC. But Peyton Manning is probably the most unique QB in the NFL in that sense. First ballot HOFer Drew Brees didn't do much until he got Payton.
Anyway, DJones has shown that he definitely has skill and IMO, has already shown why he was drafted at #6. We still haven’t seen him take off with the ball and his mobility will add a dimension that we’ve not seen here in quite some time.
Biggest concern right now with DJones is his ability to feel the rush. He’s even commented about stepping up into the pocket when he feels the pressure. He should learn and get better in the pocket.
Those with agendas want to try to further justify them and their dislike for Jones. I’m not so sure most of them will ever admit they were wrong! Who cares anyway. If DJones gets the Giants to the playoffs and is successful, who cares if he’s a system QB or not. Could you call Tom Brady a system QB? Coaches are supposed to put their players in position to be successful and Shurmur is doing just that. How do you think Keenum and Foles were so successful ?!
Jones got hot in game 1 and has stayed hot. It's really that simple. The guy has been in a zone.
And by and large he's made most of the throws you'd have to make in most games.
Now, the great unknowns we all think about remain:
-- Can he perform similarly against the Varsity Ds?
-- Can he manage real game speed?
-- Can he perform as a similar level for a full game?
-- Can he deal with pressure?
-- Can he make plays off script?
-- Etc.
The best way to start getting these answers is for the DJ to play right away. But it seems we're going old school and will force him to wait...
Inability to go through all of his progressions, as well as being more patient wth his check-down, are all clear indications that the game is still moving rapidly for him. However his arm, accuracy, and near horizontal touch have been nothing less than stellar.
One more year, under the tutelage of Shurmer & Eli, will gag the naysayers, and put to rest this offseason banter. We are looking at an athlete with the ability to lead, and represent this team, for the next decade.
Jones got hot in game 1 and has stayed hot. It's really that simple. The guy has been in a zone.
And by and large he's made most of the throws you'd have to make in most games.
Now, the great unknowns we all think about remain:
-- Can he perform similarly against the Varsity Ds?
-- Can he manage real game speed?
-- Can he perform as a similar level for a full game?
-- Can he deal with pressure?
-- Can he make plays off script?
-- Etc.
The best way to start getting these answers is for the DJ to play right away. But it seems we're going old school and will force him to wait...
I actually with most of those bullet points (save "Etc")
But the idea that he has to play immediately I don't. Sure sitting too long is not good, and he definitely needs live action. But people act like there's no value to watching, when the reality is you learn A LOT that you wouldn't normally while playing. Agreed it's different player to player, and staff / team / culture all play roles, but even tho I wouldn't mind him starting ASAP, DJ is the type who will gain a lot out of even a full yr at #2
It's not some all or nothing moment. And possibly a great thing for a rook esp while adjusting to all the stuff we fans ignore like moving, new city, new everything no matter how nice the paycheck is or being a pro athlete seems...not the worst thing even if he would succeed starting game 1. And that ignoring Eli's side, to which unless he's awful or just much worse than DJ, he's more than deserved to start this season...
I thought that was an excellent segment. Guy definitely knows his shit and had the right overall message, dont overreact in either direction.
One note specific to the Jones criticism on the TD vs the jets, he didn't make the same mistake vs the bears, he threw it with more loft and distance.
If this guy is right that his QB coach would've criticized him on Monday morning, he took that criticism and fixed it the next week.
He probably made solid arguments with regards to the game tape but he completely abused the stat that he used. He used a stat that seems to not correlate with much and got lucky that Jones ended up falling between two game managers that helped corroborate the point. Once again if Jones did WORSE in this stat and ended up at 7.6 and not 8.2, his argument would be shot to pieces. Then he'd have to criticize him buy saying he's between Brady, Big Ben, and Andrew Luck. Still better than that scrub Brees though.
*I'm taking the stats presented at face value, but I wouldn't be surprised since the 4 QBs mentioned there were all below 17.
Brett, I've been a long time fan of yours but this video hurts your credibility big time. You come off as someone desperately trying to rationalize your stance on Jones.
Here are the problems with this video:
1) You say stats don't matter and are a tool for confirmation bias but then use an obscure stat as a tool for confirmation bias.
2) Jones hasn't taken many shots but has been successful. 4-5 on passes for 127 yards for passes of 20 yards or more.
3) Shurmur putting him in a position to succeed is what every good coach does for his QB, especially a young one. Bill Belichick has made a career as GOAT coach by doing this and he's facilitated Tom Brady becoming the GOAT QB.
4) Shurmur and Jones are a packaged deal that will be here beyond the preseason so even if he's making Jones look better than he is that will continue in the regular season.
5) This stat doesn't give the QB credit for hitting players in stride for YAC which is a major part of a modern offense.
6) You made a video last year about how the Saints are a methodical offense that is very efficient with Drew Brees under center.
7) The stat is pretty useless. It's as if you didn't even read your ranker. Two rookies and two mediocre QBs had a better ranking than Mahomes. By my count only 7 of the top 15 are good established QBs, these are the QBs that are supposed to be compared favorably to Jones. You couldn't get a more random list if you just put names into a hat.
8) The variance between these isn't that big either. The difference between 8 and 17 is 0.7 of a yard. So how much does the ranking even mean?
9) QBs not in that list, because they're below Alex Smith, include Tom Brady (7.7), Ben Roethlisberger (7.7), Andrew Luck (7.6), and Drew Brees (7.1).
10) You lucked out that sitting there at 16/17 where Jones would fall were two perfect examples of game managers in Dalton and Smith. If Jones performed WORSE in this stat and had 7.6, you wouldn't even make this video because "this puts him between Tom Brady, Ben Roethlisberger, and Andrew Luck" doesn't corroborate your point and would make your argument null and void. For that argument to make statistical sense you should have looked at QBs at 16 or lower since presumably the lower you go the more "game manager" those QBs become and this way you wouldn't be looking at two random QBs in a random list that just so happened to be at 16 and 17.
In summary, you're great at analyzing plays. However, you abused statistics something fierce here. Ironically after lecturing others for doing the same. You pretty clearly want to defend a take that right now appears to possibly (keyword here) be uninformed and did a sloppy job of making your case. I don't know 1/1000 of what you know in analyzing film but I know how to call bullshit on stats abuse.
Jones got hot in game 1 and has stayed hot. It's really that simple. The guy has been in a zone.
And by and large he's made most of the throws you'd have to make in most games.
Now, the great unknowns we all think about remain:
-- Can he perform similarly against the Varsity Ds?
-- Can he manage real game speed?
-- Can he perform as a similar level for a full game?
-- Can he deal with pressure?
-- Can he make plays off script?
-- Etc.
The best way to start getting these answers is for the DJ to play right away. But it seems we're going old school and will force him to wait...
But it’s just a mini camp, then they talked about how good he looked in practice. But it’s just practice.
Now he’s playing against other teams in preseason and he looks great. But it’s only preseason. Hopefully at some point he’ll just look terrible and all the naysayers will be proven right
this analysis is basically correct. Jones is being managed within a well-defined system with mostly pre-defined reads and plays that require simple execution. That's basically this guy's argument.
Why does it bother you so?
Jones is not improvising, making multiple reads, or making very many daring throws. He is being handled carefully and so far he is excelling.
as it's just not a well made argument. As it is he contradicts all his main points from the start
Honestly, on a 5/5 TD drive after saying 'you have to watch tape' you basically gloss over 'accuracy, ball placement, timing, decision-making' by the QB. Say these are important but still champion the coach? None of that makes any sense really
Also I'm not sure why improvising is some definitive measure. In fact, you might call a rook who makes the right reads and DOESN'T tuck & run too often more NFL ready. So IMO his argument is vague and poorly made (whether or not you like DJ)
RE: I don't think anyone's bothered by it so much Â
as it's just not a well made argument. As it is he contradicts all his main points from the start
Honestly, on a 5/5 TD drive after saying 'you have to watch tape' you basically gloss over 'accuracy, ball placement, timing, decision-making' by the QB. Say these are important but still champion the coach? None of that makes any sense really
Also I'm not sure why improvising is some definitive measure. In fact, you might call a rook who makes the right reads and DOESN'T tuck & run too often more NFL ready. So IMO his argument is vague and poorly made (whether or not you like DJ)
Jones isn't making the "right" read. He is making the "only" read. The play is tight and defined. He excelled in this in college. That's not how the greats play the position.
RE: RE: I don't think anyone's bothered by it so much Â
as it's just not a well made argument. As it is he contradicts all his main points from the start
Honestly, on a 5/5 TD drive after saying 'you have to watch tape' you basically gloss over 'accuracy, ball placement, timing, decision-making' by the QB. Say these are important but still champion the coach? None of that makes any sense really
Also I'm not sure why improvising is some definitive measure. In fact, you might call a rook who makes the right reads and DOESN'T tuck & run too often more NFL ready. So IMO his argument is vague and poorly made (whether or not you like DJ)
Jones isn't making the "right" read. He is making the "only" read. The play is tight and defined. He excelled in this in college. That's not how the greats play the position.
What are you talking about? One play? Or all 30 of his pass attempts?
RE: RE: RE: I don't think anyone's bothered by it so much Â
as it's just not a well made argument. As it is he contradicts all his main points from the start
Honestly, on a 5/5 TD drive after saying 'you have to watch tape' you basically gloss over 'accuracy, ball placement, timing, decision-making' by the QB. Say these are important but still champion the coach? None of that makes any sense really
Also I'm not sure why improvising is some definitive measure. In fact, you might call a rook who makes the right reads and DOESN'T tuck & run too often more NFL ready. So IMO his argument is vague and poorly made (whether or not you like DJ)
Jones isn't making the "right" read. He is making the "only" read. The play is tight and defined. He excelled in this in college. That's not how the greats play the position.
What are you talking about? One play? Or all 30 of his pass attempts?
All of them. He is executing simple concepts. He is not dropping back and going through multiple reads. He has his main target and his outlet. That's most of what Jones is doing.
Geez, the guy's been the best QB in the NFL in the 2019 season Â
as it's just not a well made argument. As it is he contradicts all his main points from the start
Honestly, on a 5/5 TD drive after saying 'you have to watch tape' you basically gloss over 'accuracy, ball placement, timing, decision-making' by the QB. Say these are important but still champion the coach? None of that makes any sense really
Also I'm not sure why improvising is some definitive measure. In fact, you might call a rook who makes the right reads and DOESN'T tuck & run too often more NFL ready. So IMO his argument is vague and poorly made (whether or not you like DJ)
Jones isn't making the "right" read. He is making the "only" read. The play is tight and defined. He excelled in this in college. That's not how the greats play the position.
What are you talking about? One play? Or all 30 of his pass attempts?
All of them. He is executing simple concepts. He is not dropping back and going through multiple reads. He has his main target and his outlet. That's most of what Jones is doing.
Yup, that’s what I thought you meant. Sorry dude, you are completely full of shit.
RE: RE: Geez, the guy's been the best QB in the NFL in the 2019 season Â
as it's just not a well made argument. As it is he contradicts all his main points from the start
Honestly, on a 5/5 TD drive after saying 'you have to watch tape' you basically gloss over 'accuracy, ball placement, timing, decision-making' by the QB. Say these are important but still champion the coach? None of that makes any sense really
Also I'm not sure why improvising is some definitive measure. In fact, you might call a rook who makes the right reads and DOESN'T tuck & run too often more NFL ready. So IMO his argument is vague and poorly made (whether or not you like DJ)
I took his point there is that he hasn't shown that yet. Not that he never will.
Overall I didn't think he was negative towards Jones at all, just contextualized the success he had.
I'm no QB or X and O guru so I can't tell if what he is saying with regards to scheme difficulty is true or not, but he sounded convincing to me.
I will say that he convinced me that the point Cris Carter was making on the Jets TD throw seems legitimate
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I don't think anyone's bothered by it so much Â
as it's just not a well made argument. As it is he contradicts all his main points from the start
Honestly, on a 5/5 TD drive after saying 'you have to watch tape' you basically gloss over 'accuracy, ball placement, timing, decision-making' by the QB. Say these are important but still champion the coach? None of that makes any sense really
Also I'm not sure why improvising is some definitive measure. In fact, you might call a rook who makes the right reads and DOESN'T tuck & run too often more NFL ready. So IMO his argument is vague and poorly made (whether or not you like DJ)
Jones isn't making the "right" read. He is making the "only" read. The play is tight and defined. He excelled in this in college. That's not how the greats play the position.
What are you talking about? One play? Or all 30 of his pass attempts?
All of them. He is executing simple concepts. He is not dropping back and going through multiple reads. He has his main target and his outlet. That's most of what Jones is doing.
Yup, that’s what I thought you meant. Sorry dude, you are completely full of shit.
thanks for you diplomacy. If you think Jones is playing a full arsenal nfl game you're the one who is full of it. The point this dude is making is that Shurmur is making it easier for Jones than let's say what Haskins is asked to do in Washington. Not just my opinion, this is Greg Cosell too. Jones is very encouraging so far but he performing within tightly constrained and scripted concepts.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I don't think anyone's bothered by it so much Â
All of them. He is executing simple concepts. He is not dropping back and going through multiple reads. He has his main target and his outlet. That's most of what Jones is doing.
Hi Franchise,
Are you watching the games all the way through?
If you notice, Jones pump fakes one way, uses his eyes to hold the safety so that he can get the target he wants open.
That's what seasoned veterans do after playing for 5 years, he's doing it now as a rookie in preseason it's impressive.
On top of being accurate and throwing beautifully placed balls.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I don't think anyone's bothered by it so much Â
All of them. He is executing simple concepts. He is not dropping back and going through multiple reads. He has his main target and his outlet. That's most of what Jones is doing.
Hi Franchise,
Are you watching the games all the way through?
If you notice, Jones pump fakes one way, uses his eyes to hold the safety so that he can get the target he wants open.
That's what seasoned veterans do after playing for 5 years, he's doing it now as a rookie in preseason it's impressive.
On top of being accurate and throwing beautifully placed balls.
looking off the safety is the design of the play. Jones is not playing the position like Peyton or Luck or Brady - yet... He is learning. He is learning quickly. I am optimistic about jones. I was happy when they drafted him. I was on this board board saying i was cautiously optimistic about the selection. I had no problem passing on Allen for him. But he is still in the learning phase. fyi - with a good enough game manager you can still win a super bowl.
RE: RE: I don't think anyone's bothered by it so much Â
In comment 14542937 ChaChing said:
Quote:
as it's just not a well made argument. As it is he contradicts all his main points from the start
Honestly, on a 5/5 TD drive after saying 'you have to watch tape' you basically gloss over 'accuracy, ball placement, timing, decision-making' by the QB. Say these are important but still champion the coach? None of that makes any sense really
Also I'm not sure why improvising is some definitive measure. In fact, you might call a rook who makes the right reads and DOESN'T tuck & run too often more NFL ready. So IMO his argument is vague and poorly made (whether or not you like DJ)
I took his point there is that he hasn't shown that yet. Not that he never will.
Overall I didn't think he was negative towards Jones at all, just contextualized the success he had.
I'm no QB or X and O guru so I can't tell if what he is saying with regards to scheme difficulty is true or not, but he sounded convincing to me.
I will say that he convinced me that the point Cris Carter was making on the Jets TD throw seems legitimate
I agree he didn't say never will, but that wasn't the intention of his vid. He says not to over-analyze stats or preseason at least w/o context, and does just that w/ an esoteric stat and cherry picked details
But fine, context. Why does DJ's system matter to 'downplay' or 'normalize' his stats, but no mention of either WAS or AZ's O? While KM was hand-picked by KK at #1 for this reason, shouldn't he be better in context of preseason stats then? Ignoring that is improper context and poor analysis, if not simply biased (intentional or not). You can't make a point for ONE QB and not apply it to the others and say it's objective (another major point of his vid). Or bring up AIAY and conveniently ignore where the best QBs fall...sure any random cherry picked stats for random players can be pointed in any direction...
And while I don't care what he thinks about DJ, I can evaluate his reasoning for that opinion...and it's just not very good. Skewed, biased, incomplete, contradictory, poor analysis IMO
as it's just not a well made argument. As it is he contradicts all his main points from the start
Honestly, on a 5/5 TD drive after saying 'you have to watch tape' you basically gloss over 'accuracy, ball placement, timing, decision-making' by the QB. Say these are important but still champion the coach? None of that makes any sense really
Also I'm not sure why improvising is some definitive measure. In fact, you might call a rook who makes the right reads and DOESN'T tuck & run too often more NFL ready. So IMO his argument is vague and poorly made (whether or not you like DJ)
Jones isn't making the "right" read. He is making the "only" read. The play is tight and defined. He excelled in this in college. That's not how the greats play the position.
What are you talking about? One play? Or all 30 of his pass attempts?
All of them. He is executing simple concepts. He is not dropping back and going through multiple reads. He has his main target and his outlet. That's most of what Jones is doing.
Yup, that’s what I thought you meant. Sorry dude, you are completely full of shit.
thanks for you diplomacy. If you think Jones is playing a full arsenal nfl game you're the one who is full of it. The point this dude is making is that Shurmur is making it easier for Jones than let's say what Haskins is asked to do in Washington. Not just my opinion, this is Greg Cosell too. Jones is very encouraging so far but he performing within tightly constrained and scripted concepts.
It was Greg Cosell's point after his 5 passes in the very first game. Since then his multiple reads have been highlighted multiple times. Your argument is outdated. Furthermore, no he's not getting the full kitchen sink thrown ar him by Shurmur, that's smart coaching and exactly how smart coaches bring up their young players. There's nothing to be ashamed of. Finally, he's using a meaningless stat to discredit Jones. He's using it poorly at that. As I said if Jones had 7.6 intended yards and not 8.2 his argument would not be made because it's a lot harder to discredit a QB that's in the company of Tom Brady, Ben Roethlisberger, and Andrew Luck, than Alex Smith and Andy Dalton.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I don't think anyone's bothered by it so much Â
as it's just not a well made argument. As it is he contradicts all his main points from the start
Honestly, on a 5/5 TD drive after saying 'you have to watch tape' you basically gloss over 'accuracy, ball placement, timing, decision-making' by the QB. Say these are important but still champion the coach? None of that makes any sense really
Also I'm not sure why improvising is some definitive measure. In fact, you might call a rook who makes the right reads and DOESN'T tuck & run too often more NFL ready. So IMO his argument is vague and poorly made (whether or not you like DJ)
Jones isn't making the "right" read. He is making the "only" read. The play is tight and defined. He excelled in this in college. That's not how the greats play the position.
What are you talking about? One play? Or all 30 of his pass attempts?
All of them. He is executing simple concepts. He is not dropping back and going through multiple reads. He has his main target and his outlet. That's most of what Jones is doing.
Yup, that’s what I thought you meant. Sorry dude, you are completely full of shit.
thanks for you diplomacy. If you think Jones is playing a full arsenal nfl game you're the one who is full of it. The point this dude is making is that Shurmur is making it easier for Jones than let's say what Haskins is asked to do in Washington. Not just my opinion, this is Greg Cosell too. Jones is very encouraging so far but he performing within tightly constrained and scripted concepts.
It was Greg Cosell's point after his 5 passes in the very first game. Since then his multiple reads have been highlighted multiple times. Your argument is outdated. Furthermore, no he's not getting the full kitchen sink thrown ar him by Shurmur, that's smart coaching and exactly how smart coaches bring up their young players. There's nothing to be ashamed of. Finally, he's using a meaningless stat to discredit Jones. He's using it poorly at that. As I said if Jones had 7.6 intended yards and not 8.2 his argument would not be made because it's a lot harder to discredit a QB that's in the company of Tom Brady, Ben Roethlisberger, and Andrew Luck, than Alex Smith and Andy Dalton.
it is good coaching. in fact this dude makes the same exact point. and it is smart for Shurmur to give him just enough to succeed and look good doing it. And it is amazing that Jones is playing within this system nearly flawlessly. all good. all good.
so for years we've heard how many young QBs tuck & run too soon, moving into improvise mode if not just eyes coming off WRs & running, due to inexperience / phantom pressure
Now because he's not doing that it's a bad thing? In a lot of ways doesn't this indicates a more NFL ready player? Actually given he does have wheels, I've been surprised we haven't seen more of that...
Either way it's not a big deal given it's such a small sample in preseason. Just not sure I understand the arguments at times
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I don't think anyone's bothered by it so much Â
as it's just not a well made argument. As it is he contradicts all his main points from the start
Honestly, on a 5/5 TD drive after saying 'you have to watch tape' you basically gloss over 'accuracy, ball placement, timing, decision-making' by the QB. Say these are important but still champion the coach? None of that makes any sense really
Also I'm not sure why improvising is some definitive measure. In fact, you might call a rook who makes the right reads and DOESN'T tuck & run too often more NFL ready. So IMO his argument is vague and poorly made (whether or not you like DJ)
Jones isn't making the "right" read. He is making the "only" read. The play is tight and defined. He excelled in this in college. That's not how the greats play the position.
What are you talking about? One play? Or all 30 of his pass attempts?
All of them. He is executing simple concepts. He is not dropping back and going through multiple reads. He has his main target and his outlet. That's most of what Jones is doing.
Yup, that’s what I thought you meant. Sorry dude, you are completely full of shit.
thanks for you diplomacy. If you think Jones is playing a full arsenal nfl game you're the one who is full of it. The point this dude is making is that Shurmur is making it easier for Jones than let's say what Haskins is asked to do in Washington. Not just my opinion, this is Greg Cosell too. Jones is very encouraging so far but he performing within tightly constrained and scripted concepts.
It was Greg Cosell's point after his 5 passes in the very first game. Since then his multiple reads have been highlighted multiple times. Your argument is outdated. Furthermore, no he's not getting the full kitchen sink thrown ar him by Shurmur, that's smart coaching and exactly how smart coaches bring up their young players. There's nothing to be ashamed of. Finally, he's using a meaningless stat to discredit Jones. He's using it poorly at that. As I said if Jones had 7.6 intended yards and not 8.2 his argument would not be made because it's a lot harder to discredit a QB that's in the company of Tom Brady, Ben Roethlisberger, and Andrew Luck, than Alex Smith and Andy Dalton.
it is good coaching. in fact this dude makes the same exact point. and it is smart for Shurmur to give him just enough to succeed and look good doing it. And it is amazing that Jones is playing within this system nearly flawlessly. all good. all good.
But Brett is discrediting him. He even said any QB can make those throws and harped on one imperfect pass out of 30. Plus, the statistic he used is garbage and has been debunked multiple times in this thread. The guy clearly doesn't understand how stats work. And this is after making a fuss about misleading statistics.
RE: See that's one of my other ?s about this debate Â
so for years we've heard how many young QBs tuck & run too soon, moving into improvise mode if not just eyes coming off WRs & running, due to inexperience / phantom pressure
Now because he's not doing that it's a bad thing? In a lot of ways doesn't this indicates a more NFL ready player? Actually given he does have wheels, I've been surprised we haven't seen more of that...
Either way it's not a big deal given it's such a small sample in preseason. Just not sure I understand the arguments at times
By in large he hasn't had to do it. His pocket has been clean for most of his passes. If there's any caveat that's one.
the guy is taking credit away from Jones for reading the defense and throwing the ball on time to the correct receiver. That makes him a game manager apparently. If that's the case, then Tom Brady is a game manager as well. QB play doesn't have to be flashy for it to be effective.
A game manager is a guy who may not always make the play, but can run the offense with decent success and limit turnovers.
the term "game manager" used to describe a QB who is risk averse, who doesn't try to make many plays downfield that could result in a turnover, and tries to manage ball control and field position to put his D is an excellent situation?
How can somebody watch Jones and come away with that impression. People like Trent Dilfer and Mark Sanchez were game managers.
the term "game manager" used to describe a QB who is risk averse, who doesn't try to make many plays downfield that could result in a turnover, and tries to manage ball control and field position to put his D is an excellent situation?
How can somebody watch Jones and come away with that impression. People like Trent Dilfer and Mark Sanchez were game managers.
A game manager to me is a guy that will win if you can run the ball and keep his passing attempts under 30 and will lose you the majority of games where he is throwing 40 plus times.
So he is talking out of both sides of his mouth.
It works better for his point....he warned statistics can be used in providing points and did that exact thing
So he is talking out of both sides of his mouth.
Exactly what I was thinking. He is just trying to cover himself up after criticising Giants for choosing Jones over Haskins
No I didn't click the link
It works better for his point....he warned statistics can be used in providing points and did that exact thing
Yeah, that's the other point. He used his very first drive in his very first game. Sure, that was a relatively safe drive, but it was also his first.
And if it was favorable you would probably be one of the first to dismiss.
No I didn't click the link
The guy is very good. I don't know what "people like this means". He's actually very good. I'm not happy that he didn't give Jones more credit, but we can't link people that don't agree with us 100%?
Left 0-10: 5/8 59 yards
Mid 0-10: 4/4 53 yards
Right 0-10: 9/9 106 yards
Left 11-20: 2/2 46 yards 1 TD
Right 11-20: 1/2 12 yards 1 TD
Left 20+: 2/2 67 yards
Middle 20+ 1/2 35 yards
Right 20+: 1/1 25 yards
25-30 371 yards 2 TD
2 drops
Quote:
Linking people like this therefore giving them clicks?
No I didn't click the link
The guy is very good. I don't know what "people like this means". He's actually very good. I'm not happy that he didn't give Jones more credit, but we can't link people that don't agree with us 100%?
Do what you wish. Perhaps he has credentials to backup his analysis. But if he did call Jones a game manager isn't that a bit soon to declare as is declaring Jones a success?
So, there might be a bit of confirmation bias at play here.
The link below will take you to the Haskins video and his recap of the NFC East draft.
Link - ( New Window )
He then proceeds to do exactly the same thing by picking out a seldom used stat to make his point...LOL
It works better for his point....he warned statistics can be used in providing points and did that exact thing
YUP
This guy starts with all this talk about being objective, not looking at stats (since people misread them). Then uses 'intended air yards' only, and basically somehow says because DJ's tend to be smaller, the other 2 are better somehow?
Then dissects one drive, a rook QBs first no less, and basically due to one shaky throw says it's not a good drive? Basically says 'it's good accuracy, decision-making, execution BUT..." and then says it's Shurmur & play design only? Yeah, he executed it...that's a good, not bad thing. So if that fade was a perfect throw, is DJ the best? Awful analysis
Then, after saying he's going to use tape...where's even ONE drive of Haskins or Murray? Literally contradicts himself, and makes very little sense as an overall argument. Honestly after saying he wanted to remove agendas...he clearly had one whether it's staying w/ his original scouting reports or just proving the preseason narratives are preemptive & small samples...didn't need 15 min of vid to know that
Quote:
In comment 14542575 crick n NC said:
Quote:
Linking people like this therefore giving them clicks?
No I didn't click the link
The guy is very good. I don't know what "people like this means". He's actually very good. I'm not happy that he didn't give Jones more credit, but we can't link people that don't agree with us 100%?
Do what you wish. Perhaps he has credentials to backup his analysis. But if he did call Jones a game manager isn't that a bit soon to declare as is declaring Jones a success?
I'm not a fan of this video because I have a feeling he's a) trying to be a contrarian b) trying to cover his own ass. What I meant that in general, the guy isn't a scrub is one of the better analysts out there. That's why it sounds like my opinions here are conflicted. In general, I like the guy but I think he's while not 100% off base here, has ulterior motives in this video.
If being a game manager is so easy and preseason doesn't matter, how comes no one in at least 13 years has been able to replicated Jones's numbers in preseason?
Based on the fact that Jones has been amazing this preseason, probably a lot more.
Strange comment.
So, there might be a bit of confirmation bias at play here.
The link below will take you to the Haskins video and his recap of the NFC East draft.
Link - ( New Window )
That's probably what put me off the most about this video. He shit on other people for confirmation bias whereas here he clearly has it himself. Disappointing video from a guy that I really like. I thought he was above this nonsense.
Big Ben had 7.7
Drew Brees had 7.1
Luck had 7.6
This guy starts with all this talk about being objective, not looking at stats (since people misread them). Then uses 'intended air yards' only, and basically somehow says because DJ's tend to be smaller, the other 2 are better somehow?
Then dissects one drive, a rook QBs first no less, and basically due to one shaky throw says it's not a good drive? Basically says 'it's good accuracy, decision-making, execution BUT..." and then says it's Shurmur & play design only? Yeah, he executed it...that's a good, not bad thing. So if that fade was a perfect throw, is DJ the best? Awful analysis
Then, after saying he's going to use tape...where's even ONE drive of Haskins or Murray? Literally contradicts himself, and makes very little sense as an overall argument. Honestly after saying he wanted to remove agendas...he clearly had one whether it's staying w/ his original scouting reports or just proving the preseason narratives are preemptive & small samples...didn't need 15 min of vid to know that
Also, if we're penalizing QBs for their coaches putting them in a position to succeed then Tom Brady is just an average quarterback.
This !
Maybe one day he'll do a video like this for Daniel Jones:
I was wrong - Patrick Mahomes is ridiculously good
Agreed. But a) I would have liked more examples vs just a quick mention and b) while I'm all about coaches making things simpler & cutting down decision trees esp for QBs, does a good play design detract from the QB's solid execution of it? So much that DJ isn't this good, but Murray & Haskins (who we didn't bother to watch tho it's a comparison) never run these kinds of plays? Maybe they suck at short-mid yardage accuracy? Or make bad decisions to check out of the 1st read due to hesitation / mis-reads, or a tendency to move in the pocket or run?
Really awful analysis. Not because it was anti-DJ, just poorly constructed
Big Ben had 7.7
Drew Brees had 7.1
Luck had 7.6
Dude put out a good video last year showing how to stop the Saints because their offense is predicated on long drives full of short passes. Now it's a bad thing. He's contradicting himself. Outside of a season or 2, that's all Tom Brady has done himself. This is nonsense.
Cassell, Brissett, Garrapolo...IMO making it easier on your players doesn't make them worse players (tho I get what he's trying to say). Esp if you're watching them execute it correctly and w/ consistency
And the "coach is putting him in easy positions to succeed" argument is already getting old. Gee, isn't that the function of a coach?
2) Jameis Winston
3) Ryan Fitzpatrick
4) Sam Darnold
5) Russell Wilson
6) Patrick Mahomes
7) Baker Mayfield
8) Jared Goff
9) Aaron Rodgers
10) Mitchell Trubisky
11) Deshaun Watson
12) Matt Ryan
13) Joe Flacco
14) Lamar Jackson
15) Josh Rosen
16) Andy Dalton
17) Alex Smith
This is the hill he's willing to die on? By my count only 7 of these QBs are even any good, out of the remaining 10, 8 were nothing special or young but didn't have amazing seasons and 2 were guys like Dalton and Smith who are meh. 5 QBs including career backup Fitzpatrick and mediocre Jameis Winston had better stats than Patrick Mahomes. As already mentioned, some of the best QBs in the NFL didn't make this list. This stat is nonsense. You might as well just pick random QB names out of a bag. Honestly, a disappointing video by a guy trying to put out edgy commentary and save face. He's a guy that as I said, I thought was above that. Too bad.
Can he still be a bust? Can he still suck? Sure.
But no one expected him to be THIS good.
Can he still be a bust? Can he still suck? Sure.
But no one expected him to be THIS good.
In a more "water downed" than ever preseason. Save the judgement for reg season games. Period..its not like years past .
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Linking people like this therefore giving them clicks?
No I didn't click the link
The guy is very good. I don't know what "people like this means". He's actually very good. I'm not happy that he didn't give Jones more credit, but we can't link people that don't agree with us 100%?
He never liked Jones to begin with. He will make excuses he's blue in the face.
I like this guy but to then base his entire argument on Jones' first professional drive is crap.
And the stat that he thinks is so telling: Jones maybe throwing it shorter than his gross yardage, but he is throwing it with enough accuracy and touch that his receivers are getting great yards after catch. That part of the play isn't just the receiver, it is the play of the QB.
Jones is making the guy look like he didn’t have a clue what he was talking about...not surprised the guy is trying to take shots at DJ.
Mean time, the greats ALL are great game managers big arm or not. IMO most of them just do it automatically, if not have coaching staffs that handle it well. But to act like Brady, Brees, Montana those guys weren't efficient w/ clock, TOs, if not understanding game situations in general...
Game Manager is a funny label IMO. Few if any QBs or coaches win SBs without doing it well
Right because making accurate passes underneath to maximize Yac is where the game is at. Brees is probably dead fucking last. YPA and TD/Int ratio to me are clearly the most important stats when trying to look at stats and QB play. Everything else falls behind.
Jones has also made extremely good decisions, as well as multiple reads on many throws. His ball placement has been fantastic. As far as his TD against the Jets, the DB almost certainly could have at least knocked it down if he had turned around. But it would have sailed over Fowler's head if Jones had thrown it all the way to the back pylon.
I understand and fully support tempering expectations because it is preseason. I also admit that I did not want Jones at #6 or #17. But his decision making, accuracy, toughness, and leadership have been outstanding.
Hahaha Zeke your comment about Grossman made me laugh, good one!
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Is useless if you can't admit your mistakes. I certainly can't say for sure that is what is happening here, but it doesn't seem that unlikely given some of the feedback by posters I trust.
Maybe one day he'll do a video like this for Daniel Jones:
I was wrong - Patrick Mahomes is ridiculously good
I hope!
No way. I don't believe you!
I think there's a certain type of person that thinks being a pessimist is a badge of honor. We have a few of those people here. They call themselves realists. Almost no one is taking this preseason as some undeniable proof that Jones will be some HOFer but instead of enjoying something we maybe have never seen before in preseason, these people find the need to flex their "realist" muscles. I think they think it makes them more mature or something. I don't even know.
He isn't, but unfortunately, someone who has put out great mostly unbiased content before fell in the same trap of rationalizing what now looks like a possibly uninformed opinion. He lost a lot of credibility with this video. He's still good but I no longer view him as an unbiased analyst.
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He isn't, but unfortunately, someone who has put out great mostly unbiased content before fell in the same trap of rationalizing what now looks like a possibly uninformed opinion. He lost a lot of credibility with this video. He's still good but I no longer view him as an unbiased analyst.
Well, not only is this video uninformed, it is in reaction to a previous, just as uninformed video. So, I'm not thinking the guy had any credibility to begin with.
I guess if the sole purpose was to say not to read to much into preseason, well it shouldn't have been billed as a comp between 3 rook QBs
But then talking stats IS reading into it. And saying stats are often misinterpreted while citing ONE random meaningless one as what...? The QB playing well isn't playing THAT well (while ignoring the overall league numbers, TB, DB etc for no reason)
While only breaking down ONE drive, the first (meaningless) preseason drive of ONE of the rook QBs? What could that possibly prove?
Reminds me of a HS student writing a lot, but the A having literally nothing to do w/ the Q (see Billy Madison)
And slayton! Those two may develop chemistry as rookies
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In comment 14542677 DonQuixote said:
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He isn't, but unfortunately, someone who has put out great mostly unbiased content before fell in the same trap of rationalizing what now looks like a possibly uninformed opinion. He lost a lot of credibility with this video. He's still good but I no longer view him as an unbiased analyst.
Well, not only is this video uninformed, it is in reaction to a previous, just as uninformed video. So, I'm not thinking the guy had any credibility to begin with.
The problem is the guy seems like a better analyst of plays than stats guy. So he used a stat that is kind of meaningless and he was sloppy. Look at my post of the players with intended passing yards and look at the previous post who wasn't on that list. It debunks this stat. Ironically he spent like 5 minutes telling us how useless stats are and then himself used a useless stat to prove his point. Honestly, you could have as credible a lost if you just put QBs' names into a hat.
That list proves nothing and he just got lucky that two game managers happened to be 16 and 17 because so that he could make the point. It's an abuse of statistics at its finest. Looking at 2 specific data points to prove a point. At the very least he should have looked at 16 or later because if his point held 18 would be an even bigger game manager and so on. But no, it just so happened that the two perfect game managers were at 16 and 17. And you could find 4 of the best QBs below that but because he wasn't looking below 17 and was just looking at two random points it looks like he said something profound Inexcusable abuse of stats.
An example of this would be like saying no QB who threw for exactly 4,000 yards has won a Super Bowl and therefore saying that only QBs with fewer than 4,000 yards can win a Super Bowl.
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this isn't complicated. All you need to do is watch the kid play. He's been amazing. Anyone who says otherwise probably has an agenda.
Can he still be a bust? Can he still suck? Sure.
But no one expected him to be THIS good.
In a more "water downed" than ever preseason. Save the judgement for reg season games. Period..its not like years past .
You're right about judgement until he plays in the regular season. But in a more water downed than ever preaseason, then shouldn't everyone be lighting it up? The "better" prospects like Murray and Haskins, the rookie sensation Mayfield, and even veteran qbs should all have performed better than Jones then, right? But, yet, Jones has been better
2) Jameis Winston
3) Ryan Fitzpatrick
4) Sam Darnold
5) Russell Wilson
6) Patrick Mahomes
7) Baker Mayfield
8) Jared Goff
9) Aaron Rodgers
10) Mitchell Trubisky
11) Deshaun Watson
12) Matt Ryan
13) Joe Flacco
14) Lamar Jackson
15) Josh Rosen
16) Andy Dalton
17) Alex Smith
This is the hill he's willing to die on? By my count only 7 of these QBs are even any good, out of the remaining 10, 8 were nothing special or young but didn't have amazing seasons and 2 were guys like Dalton and Smith who are meh. 5 QBs including career backup Fitzpatrick and mediocre Jameis Winston had better stats than Patrick Mahomes. As already mentioned, some of the best QBs in the NFL didn't make this list. This stat is nonsense. You might as well just pick random QB names out of a bag. Honestly, a disappointing video by a guy trying to put out edgy commentary and save face. He's a guy that as I said, I thought was above that. Too bad.
I know right. When I saw the top four, I'm like what is he getting at. Brady's not even there
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has also made several beautiful deep throws which produced a high number of "intended air yards." That includes the deep balls to Latimer and Golden.
I forget Slayton. Thanks.
And slayton! Those two may develop chemistry as rookies
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In comment 14542674 AcidTest said:
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has also made several beautiful deep throws which produced a high number of "intended air yards." That includes the deep balls to Latimer and Golden.
And slayton! Those two may develop chemistry as rookies
I forgot Slayton. Thanks.
Yep, this what DG was saying when he was in full bloom love. DJ looks like professional qb.
Here are the problems with this video:
1) You say stats don't matter and are a tool for confirmation bias but then use an obscure stat as a tool for confirmation bias.
2) Jones hasn't taken many shots but has been successful. 4-5 on passes for 127 yards for passes of 20 yards or more.
3) Shurmur putting him in a position to succeed is what every good coach does for his QB, especially a young one. Bill Belichick has made a career as GOAT coach by doing this and he's facilitated Tom Brady becoming the GOAT QB.
4) Shurmur and Jones are a packaged deal that will be here beyond the preseason so even if he's making Jones look better than he is that will continue in the regular season.
5) This stat doesn't give the QB credit for hitting players in stride for YAC which is a major part of a modern offense.
6) You made a video last year about how the Saints are a methodical offense that is very efficient with Drew Brees under center.
7) The stat is pretty useless. It's as if you didn't even read your ranker. Two rookies and two mediocre QBs had a better ranking than Mahomes. By my count only 7 of the top 15 are good established QBs, these are the QBs that are supposed to be compared favorably to Jones. You couldn't get a more random list if you just put names into a hat.
8) The variance between these isn't that big either. The difference between 8 and 17 is 0.7 of a yard. So how much does the ranking even mean?
9) QBs not in that list, because they're below Alex Smith, include Tom Brady (7.7), Ben Roethlisberger (7.7), Andrew Luck (7.6), and Drew Brees (7.1).
10) You lucked out that sitting there at 16/17 where Jones would fall were two perfect examples of game managers in Dalton and Smith. If Jones performed WORSE in this stat and had 7.6, you wouldn't even make this video because "this puts him between Tom Brady, Ben Roethlisberger, and Andrew Luck" doesn't corroborate your point and would make your argument null and void. For that argument to make statistical sense you should have looked at QBs at 16 or lower since presumably the lower you go the more "game manager" those QBs become and this way you wouldn't be looking at two random QBs in a random list that just so happened to be at 16 and 17.
In summary, you're great at analyzing plays. However, you abused statistics something fierce here. Ironically after lecturing others for doing the same. You pretty clearly want to defend a take that right now appears to possibly (keyword here) be uninformed and did a sloppy job of making your case. I don't know 1/1000 of what you know in analyzing film but I know how to call bullshit on stats abuse.
Remember all his income comes from people believing he knows something. He already lambasted Daniel Jones. His ability to make money goes down if Jones is a good QB so he must continue to knock him despite all the evidence in front of him. At some point he can't bash him anymore and will do a 180 like with Patrick Mahomes. But honestly, who cares about Brett Kollmann? He is just a fan and not a professional scout or NFL FO guy.
2. Brett is really quite good at this stuff. However,
3. Apparently he is also very butt hurt over the Jones pick, as stated by someone else on the thread. VERY butt hurt.
Remember all his income comes from people believing he knows something. He already lambasted Daniel Jones. His ability to make money goes down if Jones is a good QB so he must continue to knock him despite all the evidence in front of him. At some point he can't bash him anymore and will do a 180 like with Patrick Mahomes. But honestly, who cares about Brett Kollmann? He is just a fan and not a professional scout or NFL FO guy.
Player evaluation mistakes are one thing but all he had to do was look at his list, the top 4 QBs and QBs that weren't on there to see that this argument is garbage. Extremely sloppy.
If the term is being used to say he doesn’t throw the ball in the air far enough, then he is looking for stats, not how the QB executes the offense being called.
You know who was a poor game manager? Jeff George. But I bet this guy loved how he chucked the ball down the field. So that’s nice.
This vid states a few hypotheses (stats are misleading, preseason doesn't matter much) then uses a SINGLE PRESEASON STAT to make his point
He also introduces it as a comp between 3 players. Then using that ONE stat again, implies 2 are better (mostly due to air yards I guess?)
He also says to use film. Where's film on KM & DH? And why do we cherry pick the FIRST PRESEASON DRIVE of a rook? That too while ignoring later drives that showed tougher / deep throws. Then says the good throws were his coach and scheme
It's just a poorly constructed, contradictory argument. The only value is a platitude about preseason isn't everything? Even ignorant fans don't need 15 min on these QBs, much less using ONE example as some kind of proof of what's basically a cliche?
If the term is being used to say he doesn’t throw the ball in the air far enough, then he is looking for stats, not how the QB executes the offense being called.
You know who was a poor game manager? Jeff George. But I bet this guy loved how he chucked the ball down the field. So that’s nice.
Nice...good post. I said almost the same thing above (w/ Brady & George as 2 examples lol). Tho yours is much more eloquent!
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That is the job of every QB at every level of football. Good game managers win games and Superbowls. Tom Brady is a game manager. So is Eli. So is Ryan Tannehill. They do it with varying degrees of success.
If the term is being used to say he doesn’t throw the ball in the air far enough, then he is looking for stats, not how the QB executes the offense being called.
You know who was a poor game manager? Jeff George. But I bet this guy loved how he chucked the ball down the field. So that’s nice.
Nice...good post. I said almost the same thing above (w/ Brady & George as 2 examples lol). Tho yours is much more eloquent!
Joe Montana is another example. Also another example right there with Tom Brady of having an all-time great coach putting him in a position to succeed. If Shurmur does that to Jones how is this a knock on Jones? Was that a knock on Montana and Brady? Maybe a QB like Peyton Manning can succeed with any OC. But Peyton Manning is probably the most unique QB in the NFL in that sense. First ballot HOFer Drew Brees didn't do much until he got Payton.
Biggest concern right now with DJones is his ability to feel the rush. He’s even commented about stepping up into the pocket when he feels the pressure. He should learn and get better in the pocket.
Those with agendas want to try to further justify them and their dislike for Jones. I’m not so sure most of them will ever admit they were wrong! Who cares anyway. If DJones gets the Giants to the playoffs and is successful, who cares if he’s a system QB or not. Could you call Tom Brady a system QB? Coaches are supposed to put their players in position to be successful and Shurmur is doing just that. How do you think Keenum and Foles were so successful ?!
And by and large he's made most of the throws you'd have to make in most games.
Now, the great unknowns we all think about remain:
-- Can he perform similarly against the Varsity Ds?
-- Can he manage real game speed?
-- Can he perform as a similar level for a full game?
-- Can he deal with pressure?
-- Can he make plays off script?
-- Etc.
The best way to start getting these answers is for the DJ to play right away. But it seems we're going old school and will force him to wait...
One more year, under the tutelage of Shurmer & Eli, will gag the naysayers, and put to rest this offseason banter. We are looking at an athlete with the ability to lead, and represent this team, for the next decade.
One note specific to the Jones criticism on the TD vs the jets, he didn't make the same mistake vs the bears, he threw it with more loft and distance.
If this guy is right that his QB coach would've criticized him on Monday morning, he took that criticism and fixed it the next week.
And by and large he's made most of the throws you'd have to make in most games.
Now, the great unknowns we all think about remain:
-- Can he perform similarly against the Varsity Ds?
-- Can he manage real game speed?
-- Can he perform as a similar level for a full game?
-- Can he deal with pressure?
-- Can he make plays off script?
-- Etc.
The best way to start getting these answers is for the DJ to play right away. But it seems we're going old school and will force him to wait...
I actually with most of those bullet points (save "Etc")
But the idea that he has to play immediately I don't. Sure sitting too long is not good, and he definitely needs live action. But people act like there's no value to watching, when the reality is you learn A LOT that you wouldn't normally while playing. Agreed it's different player to player, and staff / team / culture all play roles, but even tho I wouldn't mind him starting ASAP, DJ is the type who will gain a lot out of even a full yr at #2
It's not some all or nothing moment. And possibly a great thing for a rook esp while adjusting to all the stuff we fans ignore like moving, new city, new everything no matter how nice the paycheck is or being a pro athlete seems...not the worst thing even if he would succeed starting game 1. And that ignoring Eli's side, to which unless he's awful or just much worse than DJ, he's more than deserved to start this season...
One note specific to the Jones criticism on the TD vs the jets, he didn't make the same mistake vs the bears, he threw it with more loft and distance.
If this guy is right that his QB coach would've criticized him on Monday morning, he took that criticism and fixed it the next week.
He probably made solid arguments with regards to the game tape but he completely abused the stat that he used. He used a stat that seems to not correlate with much and got lucky that Jones ended up falling between two game managers that helped corroborate the point. Once again if Jones did WORSE in this stat and ended up at 7.6 and not 8.2, his argument would be shot to pieces. Then he'd have to criticize him buy saying he's between Brady, Big Ben, and Andrew Luck. Still better than that scrub Brees though.
*I'm taking the stats presented at face value, but I wouldn't be surprised since the 4 QBs mentioned there were all below 17.
obvious, yet important!
And his overall point is do t take too much from preseason so I wouldn't take too much from his AIAY segment, he was just trying to prove a point.
Here are the problems with this video:
1) You say stats don't matter and are a tool for confirmation bias but then use an obscure stat as a tool for confirmation bias.
2) Jones hasn't taken many shots but has been successful. 4-5 on passes for 127 yards for passes of 20 yards or more.
3) Shurmur putting him in a position to succeed is what every good coach does for his QB, especially a young one. Bill Belichick has made a career as GOAT coach by doing this and he's facilitated Tom Brady becoming the GOAT QB.
4) Shurmur and Jones are a packaged deal that will be here beyond the preseason so even if he's making Jones look better than he is that will continue in the regular season.
5) This stat doesn't give the QB credit for hitting players in stride for YAC which is a major part of a modern offense.
6) You made a video last year about how the Saints are a methodical offense that is very efficient with Drew Brees under center.
7) The stat is pretty useless. It's as if you didn't even read your ranker. Two rookies and two mediocre QBs had a better ranking than Mahomes. By my count only 7 of the top 15 are good established QBs, these are the QBs that are supposed to be compared favorably to Jones. You couldn't get a more random list if you just put names into a hat.
8) The variance between these isn't that big either. The difference between 8 and 17 is 0.7 of a yard. So how much does the ranking even mean?
9) QBs not in that list, because they're below Alex Smith, include Tom Brady (7.7), Ben Roethlisberger (7.7), Andrew Luck (7.6), and Drew Brees (7.1).
10) You lucked out that sitting there at 16/17 where Jones would fall were two perfect examples of game managers in Dalton and Smith. If Jones performed WORSE in this stat and had 7.6, you wouldn't even make this video because "this puts him between Tom Brady, Ben Roethlisberger, and Andrew Luck" doesn't corroborate your point and would make your argument null and void. For that argument to make statistical sense you should have looked at QBs at 16 or lower since presumably the lower you go the more "game manager" those QBs become and this way you wouldn't be looking at two random QBs in a random list that just so happened to be at 16 and 17.
In summary, you're great at analyzing plays. However, you abused statistics something fierce here. Ironically after lecturing others for doing the same. You pretty clearly want to defend a take that right now appears to possibly (keyword here) be uninformed and did a sloppy job of making your case. I don't know 1/1000 of what you know in analyzing film but I know how to call bullshit on stats abuse.
Excellent response
And by and large he's made most of the throws you'd have to make in most games.
Now, the great unknowns we all think about remain:
-- Can he perform similarly against the Varsity Ds?
-- Can he manage real game speed?
-- Can he perform as a similar level for a full game?
-- Can he deal with pressure?
-- Can he make plays off script?
-- Etc.
The best way to start getting these answers is for the DJ to play right away. But it seems we're going old school and will force him to wait...
LOL. *Never* change, my friend.
Rinse and repeat
Now he’s playing against other teams in preseason and he looks great. But it’s only preseason. Hopefully at some point he’ll just look terrible and all the naysayers will be proven right
And look at this one pass that coulda woulda shoulda been intercepted...
Gimme a break.
Why does it bother you so?
Jones is not improvising, making multiple reads, or making very many daring throws. He is being handled carefully and so far he is excelling.
Honestly, on a 5/5 TD drive after saying 'you have to watch tape' you basically gloss over 'accuracy, ball placement, timing, decision-making' by the QB. Say these are important but still champion the coach? None of that makes any sense really
Also I'm not sure why improvising is some definitive measure. In fact, you might call a rook who makes the right reads and DOESN'T tuck & run too often more NFL ready. So IMO his argument is vague and poorly made (whether or not you like DJ)
Honestly, on a 5/5 TD drive after saying 'you have to watch tape' you basically gloss over 'accuracy, ball placement, timing, decision-making' by the QB. Say these are important but still champion the coach? None of that makes any sense really
Also I'm not sure why improvising is some definitive measure. In fact, you might call a rook who makes the right reads and DOESN'T tuck & run too often more NFL ready. So IMO his argument is vague and poorly made (whether or not you like DJ)
Jones isn't making the "right" read. He is making the "only" read. The play is tight and defined. He excelled in this in college. That's not how the greats play the position.
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as it's just not a well made argument. As it is he contradicts all his main points from the start
Honestly, on a 5/5 TD drive after saying 'you have to watch tape' you basically gloss over 'accuracy, ball placement, timing, decision-making' by the QB. Say these are important but still champion the coach? None of that makes any sense really
Also I'm not sure why improvising is some definitive measure. In fact, you might call a rook who makes the right reads and DOESN'T tuck & run too often more NFL ready. So IMO his argument is vague and poorly made (whether or not you like DJ)
Jones isn't making the "right" read. He is making the "only" read. The play is tight and defined. He excelled in this in college. That's not how the greats play the position.
What are you talking about? One play? Or all 30 of his pass attempts?
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In comment 14542937 ChaChing said:
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as it's just not a well made argument. As it is he contradicts all his main points from the start
Honestly, on a 5/5 TD drive after saying 'you have to watch tape' you basically gloss over 'accuracy, ball placement, timing, decision-making' by the QB. Say these are important but still champion the coach? None of that makes any sense really
Also I'm not sure why improvising is some definitive measure. In fact, you might call a rook who makes the right reads and DOESN'T tuck & run too often more NFL ready. So IMO his argument is vague and poorly made (whether or not you like DJ)
Jones isn't making the "right" read. He is making the "only" read. The play is tight and defined. He excelled in this in college. That's not how the greats play the position.
What are you talking about? One play? Or all 30 of his pass attempts?
All of them. He is executing simple concepts. He is not dropping back and going through multiple reads. He has his main target and his outlet. That's most of what Jones is doing.
ok sure.. Jones is the best QB in the nfl..
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In comment 14542945 FranchiseQB said:
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In comment 14542937 ChaChing said:
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as it's just not a well made argument. As it is he contradicts all his main points from the start
Honestly, on a 5/5 TD drive after saying 'you have to watch tape' you basically gloss over 'accuracy, ball placement, timing, decision-making' by the QB. Say these are important but still champion the coach? None of that makes any sense really
Also I'm not sure why improvising is some definitive measure. In fact, you might call a rook who makes the right reads and DOESN'T tuck & run too often more NFL ready. So IMO his argument is vague and poorly made (whether or not you like DJ)
Jones isn't making the "right" read. He is making the "only" read. The play is tight and defined. He excelled in this in college. That's not how the greats play the position.
What are you talking about? One play? Or all 30 of his pass attempts?
All of them. He is executing simple concepts. He is not dropping back and going through multiple reads. He has his main target and his outlet. That's most of what Jones is doing.
Yup, that’s what I thought you meant. Sorry dude, you are completely full of shit.
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Cant we just enjoy it for what it is?
ok sure.. Jones is the best QB in the nfl..
Honestly, on a 5/5 TD drive after saying 'you have to watch tape' you basically gloss over 'accuracy, ball placement, timing, decision-making' by the QB. Say these are important but still champion the coach? None of that makes any sense really
Also I'm not sure why improvising is some definitive measure. In fact, you might call a rook who makes the right reads and DOESN'T tuck & run too often more NFL ready. So IMO his argument is vague and poorly made (whether or not you like DJ)
I took his point there is that he hasn't shown that yet. Not that he never will.
Overall I didn't think he was negative towards Jones at all, just contextualized the success he had.
I'm no QB or X and O guru so I can't tell if what he is saying with regards to scheme difficulty is true or not, but he sounded convincing to me.
I will say that he convinced me that the point Cris Carter was making on the Jets TD throw seems legitimate
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In comment 14542948 BSIMatt said:
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In comment 14542945 FranchiseQB said:
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In comment 14542937 ChaChing said:
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as it's just not a well made argument. As it is he contradicts all his main points from the start
Honestly, on a 5/5 TD drive after saying 'you have to watch tape' you basically gloss over 'accuracy, ball placement, timing, decision-making' by the QB. Say these are important but still champion the coach? None of that makes any sense really
Also I'm not sure why improvising is some definitive measure. In fact, you might call a rook who makes the right reads and DOESN'T tuck & run too often more NFL ready. So IMO his argument is vague and poorly made (whether or not you like DJ)
Jones isn't making the "right" read. He is making the "only" read. The play is tight and defined. He excelled in this in college. That's not how the greats play the position.
What are you talking about? One play? Or all 30 of his pass attempts?
All of them. He is executing simple concepts. He is not dropping back and going through multiple reads. He has his main target and his outlet. That's most of what Jones is doing.
Yup, that’s what I thought you meant. Sorry dude, you are completely full of shit.
thanks for you diplomacy. If you think Jones is playing a full arsenal nfl game you're the one who is full of it. The point this dude is making is that Shurmur is making it easier for Jones than let's say what Haskins is asked to do in Washington. Not just my opinion, this is Greg Cosell too. Jones is very encouraging so far but he performing within tightly constrained and scripted concepts.
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In comment 14542945 FranchiseQB said:?
All of them. He is executing simple concepts. He is not dropping back and going through multiple reads. He has his main target and his outlet. That's most of what Jones is doing.
Hi Franchise,
Are you watching the games all the way through?
If you notice, Jones pump fakes one way, uses his eyes to hold the safety so that he can get the target he wants open.
That's what seasoned veterans do after playing for 5 years, he's doing it now as a rookie in preseason it's impressive.
On top of being accurate and throwing beautifully placed balls.
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In comment 14542948 BSIMatt said:
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In comment 14542945 FranchiseQB said:?
All of them. He is executing simple concepts. He is not dropping back and going through multiple reads. He has his main target and his outlet. That's most of what Jones is doing.
Hi Franchise,
Are you watching the games all the way through?
If you notice, Jones pump fakes one way, uses his eyes to hold the safety so that he can get the target he wants open.
That's what seasoned veterans do after playing for 5 years, he's doing it now as a rookie in preseason it's impressive.
On top of being accurate and throwing beautifully placed balls.
looking off the safety is the design of the play. Jones is not playing the position like Peyton or Luck or Brady - yet... He is learning. He is learning quickly. I am optimistic about jones. I was happy when they drafted him. I was on this board board saying i was cautiously optimistic about the selection. I had no problem passing on Allen for him. But he is still in the learning phase. fyi - with a good enough game manager you can still win a super bowl.
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as it's just not a well made argument. As it is he contradicts all his main points from the start
Honestly, on a 5/5 TD drive after saying 'you have to watch tape' you basically gloss over 'accuracy, ball placement, timing, decision-making' by the QB. Say these are important but still champion the coach? None of that makes any sense really
Also I'm not sure why improvising is some definitive measure. In fact, you might call a rook who makes the right reads and DOESN'T tuck & run too often more NFL ready. So IMO his argument is vague and poorly made (whether or not you like DJ)
I took his point there is that he hasn't shown that yet. Not that he never will.
Overall I didn't think he was negative towards Jones at all, just contextualized the success he had.
I'm no QB or X and O guru so I can't tell if what he is saying with regards to scheme difficulty is true or not, but he sounded convincing to me.
I will say that he convinced me that the point Cris Carter was making on the Jets TD throw seems legitimate
I agree he didn't say never will, but that wasn't the intention of his vid. He says not to over-analyze stats or preseason at least w/o context, and does just that w/ an esoteric stat and cherry picked details
But fine, context. Why does DJ's system matter to 'downplay' or 'normalize' his stats, but no mention of either WAS or AZ's O? While KM was hand-picked by KK at #1 for this reason, shouldn't he be better in context of preseason stats then? Ignoring that is improper context and poor analysis, if not simply biased (intentional or not). You can't make a point for ONE QB and not apply it to the others and say it's objective (another major point of his vid). Or bring up AIAY and conveniently ignore where the best QBs fall...sure any random cherry picked stats for random players can be pointed in any direction...
And while I don't care what he thinks about DJ, I can evaluate his reasoning for that opinion...and it's just not very good. Skewed, biased, incomplete, contradictory, poor analysis IMO
I still see people calling Brady a game manager and it blows my mind. Sign me up for a game manager if Jones can do half what he has done
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In comment 14542951 FranchiseQB said:
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In comment 14542948 BSIMatt said:
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In comment 14542945 FranchiseQB said:
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In comment 14542937 ChaChing said:
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as it's just not a well made argument. As it is he contradicts all his main points from the start
Honestly, on a 5/5 TD drive after saying 'you have to watch tape' you basically gloss over 'accuracy, ball placement, timing, decision-making' by the QB. Say these are important but still champion the coach? None of that makes any sense really
Also I'm not sure why improvising is some definitive measure. In fact, you might call a rook who makes the right reads and DOESN'T tuck & run too often more NFL ready. So IMO his argument is vague and poorly made (whether or not you like DJ)
Jones isn't making the "right" read. He is making the "only" read. The play is tight and defined. He excelled in this in college. That's not how the greats play the position.
What are you talking about? One play? Or all 30 of his pass attempts?
All of them. He is executing simple concepts. He is not dropping back and going through multiple reads. He has his main target and his outlet. That's most of what Jones is doing.
Yup, that’s what I thought you meant. Sorry dude, you are completely full of shit.
thanks for you diplomacy. If you think Jones is playing a full arsenal nfl game you're the one who is full of it. The point this dude is making is that Shurmur is making it easier for Jones than let's say what Haskins is asked to do in Washington. Not just my opinion, this is Greg Cosell too. Jones is very encouraging so far but he performing within tightly constrained and scripted concepts.
It was Greg Cosell's point after his 5 passes in the very first game. Since then his multiple reads have been highlighted multiple times. Your argument is outdated. Furthermore, no he's not getting the full kitchen sink thrown ar him by Shurmur, that's smart coaching and exactly how smart coaches bring up their young players. There's nothing to be ashamed of. Finally, he's using a meaningless stat to discredit Jones. He's using it poorly at that. As I said if Jones had 7.6 intended yards and not 8.2 his argument would not be made because it's a lot harder to discredit a QB that's in the company of Tom Brady, Ben Roethlisberger, and Andrew Luck, than Alex Smith and Andy Dalton.
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In comment 14542956 BSIMatt said:
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In comment 14542951 FranchiseQB said:
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In comment 14542948 BSIMatt said:
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In comment 14542945 FranchiseQB said:
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In comment 14542937 ChaChing said:
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as it's just not a well made argument. As it is he contradicts all his main points from the start
Honestly, on a 5/5 TD drive after saying 'you have to watch tape' you basically gloss over 'accuracy, ball placement, timing, decision-making' by the QB. Say these are important but still champion the coach? None of that makes any sense really
Also I'm not sure why improvising is some definitive measure. In fact, you might call a rook who makes the right reads and DOESN'T tuck & run too often more NFL ready. So IMO his argument is vague and poorly made (whether or not you like DJ)
Jones isn't making the "right" read. He is making the "only" read. The play is tight and defined. He excelled in this in college. That's not how the greats play the position.
What are you talking about? One play? Or all 30 of his pass attempts?
All of them. He is executing simple concepts. He is not dropping back and going through multiple reads. He has his main target and his outlet. That's most of what Jones is doing.
Yup, that’s what I thought you meant. Sorry dude, you are completely full of shit.
thanks for you diplomacy. If you think Jones is playing a full arsenal nfl game you're the one who is full of it. The point this dude is making is that Shurmur is making it easier for Jones than let's say what Haskins is asked to do in Washington. Not just my opinion, this is Greg Cosell too. Jones is very encouraging so far but he performing within tightly constrained and scripted concepts.
It was Greg Cosell's point after his 5 passes in the very first game. Since then his multiple reads have been highlighted multiple times. Your argument is outdated. Furthermore, no he's not getting the full kitchen sink thrown ar him by Shurmur, that's smart coaching and exactly how smart coaches bring up their young players. There's nothing to be ashamed of. Finally, he's using a meaningless stat to discredit Jones. He's using it poorly at that. As I said if Jones had 7.6 intended yards and not 8.2 his argument would not be made because it's a lot harder to discredit a QB that's in the company of Tom Brady, Ben Roethlisberger, and Andrew Luck, than Alex Smith and Andy Dalton.
it is good coaching. in fact this dude makes the same exact point. and it is smart for Shurmur to give him just enough to succeed and look good doing it. And it is amazing that Jones is playing within this system nearly flawlessly. all good. all good.
Now because he's not doing that it's a bad thing? In a lot of ways doesn't this indicates a more NFL ready player? Actually given he does have wheels, I've been surprised we haven't seen more of that...
Either way it's not a big deal given it's such a small sample in preseason. Just not sure I understand the arguments at times
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In comment 14542961 FranchiseQB said:
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In comment 14542956 BSIMatt said:
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In comment 14542951 FranchiseQB said:
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In comment 14542948 BSIMatt said:
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In comment 14542945 FranchiseQB said:
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In comment 14542937 ChaChing said:
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as it's just not a well made argument. As it is he contradicts all his main points from the start
Honestly, on a 5/5 TD drive after saying 'you have to watch tape' you basically gloss over 'accuracy, ball placement, timing, decision-making' by the QB. Say these are important but still champion the coach? None of that makes any sense really
Also I'm not sure why improvising is some definitive measure. In fact, you might call a rook who makes the right reads and DOESN'T tuck & run too often more NFL ready. So IMO his argument is vague and poorly made (whether or not you like DJ)
Jones isn't making the "right" read. He is making the "only" read. The play is tight and defined. He excelled in this in college. That's not how the greats play the position.
What are you talking about? One play? Or all 30 of his pass attempts?
All of them. He is executing simple concepts. He is not dropping back and going through multiple reads. He has his main target and his outlet. That's most of what Jones is doing.
Yup, that’s what I thought you meant. Sorry dude, you are completely full of shit.
thanks for you diplomacy. If you think Jones is playing a full arsenal nfl game you're the one who is full of it. The point this dude is making is that Shurmur is making it easier for Jones than let's say what Haskins is asked to do in Washington. Not just my opinion, this is Greg Cosell too. Jones is very encouraging so far but he performing within tightly constrained and scripted concepts.
It was Greg Cosell's point after his 5 passes in the very first game. Since then his multiple reads have been highlighted multiple times. Your argument is outdated. Furthermore, no he's not getting the full kitchen sink thrown ar him by Shurmur, that's smart coaching and exactly how smart coaches bring up their young players. There's nothing to be ashamed of. Finally, he's using a meaningless stat to discredit Jones. He's using it poorly at that. As I said if Jones had 7.6 intended yards and not 8.2 his argument would not be made because it's a lot harder to discredit a QB that's in the company of Tom Brady, Ben Roethlisberger, and Andrew Luck, than Alex Smith and Andy Dalton.
it is good coaching. in fact this dude makes the same exact point. and it is smart for Shurmur to give him just enough to succeed and look good doing it. And it is amazing that Jones is playing within this system nearly flawlessly. all good. all good.
But Brett is discrediting him. He even said any QB can make those throws and harped on one imperfect pass out of 30. Plus, the statistic he used is garbage and has been debunked multiple times in this thread. The guy clearly doesn't understand how stats work. And this is after making a fuss about misleading statistics.
Now because he's not doing that it's a bad thing? In a lot of ways doesn't this indicates a more NFL ready player? Actually given he does have wheels, I've been surprised we haven't seen more of that...
Either way it's not a big deal given it's such a small sample in preseason. Just not sure I understand the arguments at times
By in large he hasn't had to do it. His pocket has been clean for most of his passes. If there's any caveat that's one.
Based on his analysis, DJ can go out and just chuck more balls as far as possible without making ONE completion and 'be better' for it...somehow
A game manager is a guy who may not always make the play, but can run the offense with decent success and limit turnovers.
How can somebody watch Jones and come away with that impression. People like Trent Dilfer and Mark Sanchez were game managers.
I’d take that
How can somebody watch Jones and come away with that impression. People like Trent Dilfer and Mark Sanchez were game managers.
A game manager to me is a guy that will win if you can run the ball and keep his passing attempts under 30 and will lose you the majority of games where he is throwing 40 plus times.